August 19, 2025 • 38 mins
Bradley Jay Fills in on NightSide
Have you ever wondered what it’s really like living under the world’s most repressive regime? For citizens of North Korea, life is restrictive to say the least, where they have limited freedoms and are subject to government surveillance and propaganda. Author Barbara Demick wrote a book titled: Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea, which follows and tells the real-life stories of 6 North Korean residents and all they endured over a 15-year span. Demick joined us to discuss life in North Korea as well as her latest book, an equally powerful and engaging real life story: Daughters of the Bamboo Grove: From China to America, a True Story of Abduction, Adoption, and Separated Twins?
Have you ever wondered what it’s really like living under the world’s most repressive regime? For citizens of North Korea, life is restrictive to say the least, where they have limited freedoms and are subject to government surveillance and propaganda. Author Barbara Demick wrote a book titled: Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea, which follows and tells the real-life stories of 6 North Korean residents and all they endured over a 15-year span. Demick joined us to discuss life in North Korea as well as her latest book, an equally powerful and engaging real life story: Daughters of the Bamboo Grove: From China to America, a True Story of Abduction, Adoption, and Separated Twins?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night's Eyes with Dan Ray. I'm going easy Boston's
News Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This is Night's Side, But Dan Ray, I'm Bradley Jay
and for Dan tonight. You know, I am concerned that
fewer and fewer Americans care about democracy, fewer think that
it works. I'm not just guessing. If you check poles,
you'll see things like this. This is an Open Society
(00:27):
Foundation poll shows that over a third of eighteen to
thirty five year olds are supportive of strong a strong
leader who would bypass legislatures and elections, and only fifty
seven percent field democracy is preferable to any other form
of government. That's concerning these These people are not being
(00:49):
told and shown what life is like under the alternative systems.
And for a long time I've wanted to do this segment,
partly because I will want to instruct you so you
can instruct your kids, but also I wanted to find
out more details about life in places like China and
(01:10):
North Korea, particularly North Korea and Russia. But tonight we're
going to concentrate on North Korea, but we're also going
to take a look at China. And our guest is
an author of books.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
On both of those situations.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Our guest is Barbara Demik, who is a writer for
the Los Angeles Times and a contributor to the New Yorker,
and she has graciously agreed to come on and talk
about life in North Korea as well as China.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Thanks for being with us, Hey.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Thanks for inviting me. Really happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
And I know that the North Korea book is an
older book and you've talked about it a lot, and
you're more excited to talk about your new book. But
we'll get to both of them. I mean, this is
really important.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So I guess the way to start out is to simply,
uh give.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
An overview of life in North Korea, and then I
have many questions.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
We'll drill down. Okay, okay, sure, let me give the
name of.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
The book, though first I apologize nothing to envy. Ordinary
Lives in North Korea is book number one. We'll talk
about in book number two, Daughters of the Bamboo Grove
from China to America, a true story of abduction, adoption,
and separate twins. But that will also expose life in China.
So about life in North Korea?
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Now, Yeah, it's funny. When I was listening to your
introduction and you were saying people don't appreciate democracy. I
was thinking myself, well, this is a perfect segue to
talk about North Korea and China as well, because these
(02:55):
well we'll start with North Korea, because North Korea, I think,
is the ultimate authoritarian state. There's you know, no no
freedom of speech, no freedom of movement, no internet. You know,
if you're trying to tell young people about why they
(03:15):
should appreciate freedom, no internet. North Korea is the only
country in the world as far as I know, that
has cut itself off deliberately from the Internet because they
don't want outside influences. And you know, they have only
one one source of news, and it's state news, and
(03:36):
it's it's a crime in North Korea to listen to
any kind of foreign broadcast. It's a crime to you
don't read anything foreign, even a Bible, especially a Bible,
because there's just one state ideology and you can't, you know,
can't deviate from that.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
So if you are caught watching some non state TV
or something on the internet, how severe would your punishment
be in North Korea?
Speaker 4 (04:07):
You could be executed, but you certainly go to a
prison camp. And you know that might be listening to
something very minor, you know, a rock song from China
or from South Korea from a rival country. The TVs
(04:28):
and radios are set to one station. You can't turn
a dial. And people are clever they try different devices,
but there's no deviating from that.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
So I'm curious, how hard do the people try.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Is the urge to get information I think from the
outside so strong that they will risk their lives to
do it or risk going to a prison camp for
fifty years?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Do people still try to do it?
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Well? Some do.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
One of the people in my book, I call him Johnsong,
was like a very you know, clever young man who
had studied computer technology and engineering, and he was pretty
gutsy and he did, you know, term his camera with
his radio. But I think most people don't, you know,
(05:23):
even if they don't believe in the system, they know
they don't want to get in trouble and they just
you know, sormarch along. So you see these images from
North Korea of you know, people who's stepping you know
and chanting the name of the leader, and I don't
know if they actually believe. I think less and less
(05:46):
people believe, but they do what they have to to
stay alive.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I just had an idea for parents.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Instead of just telling your children, hey, in North Korea
they don't have a well, you could do is play
a game called.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Let's go to North Korea. Today.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
We're going to play Let's go to North Korea and
you try to reenact life what it's like there, no internet,
no TV, terrible food, you know, punished some sort of
punishment all day.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
And after a.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Few days of life in North Korea games, they probably
get the idea.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Now I don't.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
They don't get any information. To my mind, the human
mind is a blank slave. It's like an empty hard drive.
You might think something's wired in. You might think the
notion of good or evil is wired in. I used
to think that. I don't anymore. And since the North
Koreans are born into a vacuum, anything you put in
there they will completely believe. So I have the feeling
(06:49):
and you would know better than I do that they
are all in and they believe, And how would it
be How could it be otherwise?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Do they get secret info from people who have escaped, because.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
If they don't, they're really going to believe that Kim
Jong oun is actually God, just like Muslims believe Allah
is God and the Christians believe their God is God.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Same thing. I don't have much faith in anything wired in.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Yeah, that's well, that's it really is creatle the grave
and the name of my book. Nothing to envy comes
from a children's song that I'll spare your poor listeners
my terrible singing. But it's a song a bottom up
sad and we have nothing to envy in this world
because we live under the care of the fatherly leader.
(07:38):
It was Kim il sung, then Kim Jong il, now
Kim Jong un and this is this is this slogan
is very important and what used to be on the currency,
it was on banners on the kindergartens. And for people
to believe this, they can't see any glimpses of the
(07:59):
outside world. So the things that the media that's most
bad in North Korea are it's like Chinese television, or
it's even more South Korean television, where you might see
somebody you know at the market buying fruit, you know,
(08:20):
with their rice cooker, big bowl of rice, hamburger, you know,
some meat. They anything that quote unquote glorifies foreign lifestyles
because they have to be, you know, convinced that they
have nothing to end me from anywhere else in the world.
And that's that that is the message that's hammered in.
(08:44):
But unfortunately for the leadership, Koreans are pretty smart and
so they'll get they get funny glimpses of things. You know,
they'll at their markets. There's a there's a very long
border with China, more than eight hundred miles, and products
come in from China. And you know, historically the North
(09:09):
Koreans thought they were much richer and more sophisticated than
the Chinese. But they see, you know, pretty nice manufactured
goods coming in from China, and that has begun to
know rule their faith in the leadership.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
You know, I heard that the soldiers that went to
fight for Russia were unliked by the Russian soldiers because
they're they were stealing everything, and that that I guess
was part of their culture because they're so desperate. You know,
you can you can steal or die. That's the only
(09:50):
way you can survive there because it's so poor. Does
that ring true?
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Yeah, anything we take for granted, a plastic bag, discarded cardboard.
The people in my book talked about how possible it
was to get paper to write a letter. You know,
just the most common common items are missing.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
We're going to talk more about life there, like from
morning till night, how many people live in a home,
all the sort of things that the small things that
are that are big things, and all the while we talk,
I want you to consider this. It's a slippery slope
to the life of a North Korean. It doesn't happen overnight.
North Korea was not always that way. It happens when
(10:36):
freedoms are taken away and freedoms of expression, freedoms of
all sorts of freedoms, for example. And something that made
me quite nervous was recently I heard that in the
United States museums were going to be examined to ensure
that their exhibits were patriotic. Now, how totalitarian does that sound?
(10:58):
How North Korean does that sound? How Chinese does that sound?
So all the time you're listening to us, remember that
one of the reasons we're talking about this is to
tell you what can happen in other countries that right
now you think, oh, they'll never go like, they will
never become totalitarian. But it happens, so we'll take a
(11:23):
break and continue on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Well, thanks for being with us.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I invite you to call now as we talk about
life in North Korea and the number of six one seven,
six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Also, you
may want to try this out if you're shy, there's
another way to contact us, ask a question, get involved.
You get the iHeartRadio app, download the app, and then
(11:58):
you while you're listening to a side on the app,
you tap the red microphone talk peck button in the
top right corner.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
It's big, it's easy to see. Just do it. It's
super duper simple.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Try it out and you send us your personalized audio message.
It could be a question. It's kind of like a call,
only it's pre recorded. Maybe you're shy some I know
that a lot of people are. Maybe this would help
you get involved and maybe we'll play it during the
show and at the appropriate time.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Very simple.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Once again, hit the red button at the top right
corner of the app while listening to night Side, this
is Nightside, and send us your audio message. And we're
the barber demic who's written books on a super interesting
book on China and another one on North Korea. And
there's actually a third that I'm going to delve into
a little bit, the Sarajevo book, because I'm fascinated by
(12:46):
that button.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Now we're focusing on.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
We're focusing on North Korea, and I have a lot
of questions, so I guess there'd be a shorter question,
shorter answer stage of the.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
The show here. Now, do people own their own cars
at all?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (13:05):
No, people don't do not own cars?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Okay, Okay, America, how does that grab you? That's not
gonna sit very well with America.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, And when you play North Korea, play the game
North Korea with your children to show them what it's
like in it and the totalitarian government today. Kids, we
won't have any cars, we won't have any money. We're
going to go visit a jail, and we're going to
eat rice with mold in it.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
That's what they say.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Hey, hey, hey, rice is a luxury a luxury good.
You're probably gonna be eating some kind of corn mush
corn ground up with the husks and the cobs. You
might not get meat, you know, once or twice a year.
Forget about eggs, forget about fruit.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So yeah, so those a you folks, younger folks, any
folks that think, hey, maybe democracy is not working like
it used to think about that? How'd you like your
meal every day to be ground up corn cobs and
you have to eat the corn and the husk and everything.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Okay, now what do they do for money?
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Well, I was just going to say, you know what
they do for fun? You know, they do have computer games,
and they have a kind of phone that has games
on it, and games are considered to kind of numb
the brain. So there's certain things you can do to
distract yourself. You know, they have I think, pretty advanced
(14:40):
computer graphics, but there's no information. So I'll tell you
something great change. The thing that's the most banned in
North Korea is the Bible. The Bible will get you
in more shoubril than like looking at pornography.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Because it gives you hope.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
The competing ideology. They they actually plagiarized a lot from
the Bible. You know, North Korea used to be very Christian.
Jianyang was once considered the Jerusalem of the East, so
there was they needed to wipe out, you know, any
kind of religion to replace, replace it with their own ideology.
(15:25):
And so for example, Kim Jung Ill, the second leader,
the father of the current leader, you know, he was
his birth was said to be heralded by a double
rainbow and a bright star. And they have all this,
all this, you know, hagiography, you know, making the leaders
out to be gods and themselves. You know, they boast
(15:47):
about their golf game. It's like somebody else, but I
won't get into that. You know, the perfect, the perfect
golf game, the great scores. The leader, you know is
is great. He's the greatest in what ever he does.
And a lot of the state media is you know,
is just designed to tout his wonders.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Okay, let's take a call. This is Joe Anne in
West Roxbury. Joe Anne, you're on night side.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Hello.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Hi, It's been a long time since I talked to you, Bradley.
Jay was when I first retired and I was staying
up really late at night when you were on Overnight.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Welcome back. Thanks.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
So I read a book by Adam Johnson when the
Policer Prize in twenty twelve called The Orphan Master's Son,
and it was a work of fiction, but he did
travel to North Korea, and then of course he had
to be escorted, and he did all this research and
it was an incredible book, and I recommended it highly
(16:49):
to some people, but I warned them that you have
to be prepared to be disturbed. And then the copy
of the book I had happened to have an interview
the author, you know, even at the end, and the
author and Johnson was asked if everything he wrote in
(17:10):
the book was true about all these horrific things that
were happening in North Korea, and he shared that there
was only one thing he wrote that wasn't true, and
it was about people who were about to die and
were in the hospital and blood letting them and using
their blood, you know, to treat other people. He said
that wasn't true. But there were many things that he
(17:33):
learned about that were horrific that he did not include
in the book. So again it won the Paul surprise.
Excuse me, now you have.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Another book to read.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's called Nothing to Envy, Ordinary Lives in North Korea,
and that's our Yes.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
You know, I loved Adam's book, absolutely loved it, but
it is fiction, and there's things in there are fictional,
and this is something as I teach also, and I
really want you know, readers to distinguish like what I wrote,
which involves real people, right, like all went through this
(18:16):
fact this incredible fact checking process with the New Yorker
magazine where you know, they called the people and asked them,
you know you said you you know you ate this.
Was it a squash? Was it a pumpkin? Blah blah
blah blah blah, you know down the detail. Adam's book
is brilliant. I would not you know, try to outdo
(18:39):
him as a novelist, but there are things in there
that are not that are you know, are fiction. Like
I think I'm remembering exactly. There's some like kind of
lobotomy things and I don't remember, it's a while since
I read it. But you know, it's just I just
want to get that in because I saw some reviews
(19:00):
Amazon that compared the books and they called mine a
novel and his nonfiction. Oh you know, it's like you
have no idea how much time they've spend making every
detail is correct.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Wow, that currently listed is listed as you know, fiction,
but he has a lot of you know there's a
lot of truth in it, but it is listed as fiction. Yeah,
in the book there is a lot.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
There's a lot of truth in it, and it's a
brilliant book. I loved it.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Joan, thank you so much for you know, checking back
in excellent call.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
After this break, I want to get at one of
the crucial points, and that is how did it happen?
It used to be considered a very Christian nation, and
then how it wasn't It didn't take long to happen.
I'm curious if you have a handle on the mechanics
of how that that particular leader or a series made
(20:04):
it happen. And do you see these things happening in
other countries? Could it happen here? Could it happen in
other Western countries? Could it happen in Hungary? Could it
happened where you see hints of totaler totalitarianism? Or is
it something about these countries that would prevent them from happening.
I'd be interested to know, and hopefully Barbara demic Well
let us know. And Barbara, I promise equal time for
(20:26):
your new book as wells WBZ News Radio ten thirty.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ in
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Barbara demic life in North Korea.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
It's not pretty, but could it happen here or some
intermediate country where democracy is kind of shaky, like maybe
like hungry? And this is kind of a lightning round
because I do want to get to your other book,
but I have your most recent new book concerning China
(21:00):
that I want to but I do want to get
go ahead.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Yeah, I would just say it's kind of it's kind
of the same story when we're talking about the failures
of democracy, and it's funny. I mean, I spent more
than fifteen years covering Asia, and you know, there was
this conventional wisdom that you know, with time, China was
(21:27):
going to become more like the United States. North Korea
was going to become more like the United States. This
kind of started in the nineties after the collapse of
the Soviet Union, the fall of the Berlin War. Your
democracy will triumph. But what has actually happened is that
the US has become more like China. And you know,
(21:48):
every day we see you know, we see parallels. And
I have a lot of friends who lived in China
with me. As you know, foreign correspondence and it's like wow, yeah,
just like China and in some ways just like North Korea.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I guess my biggest shock is when I heard flow
of the idea that they were going to go through
museum exhibits to make sure they were patriotic. That is,
that is off the shots. That's that's a giant step
in the wrong direction. That's the giant step towards North Korea.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Yeah, they have in China, so I'm talking about China,
but a lot of it is the same. They have
what's called patriotic education, and they do that all over
the place. I actually have another book called Eat the Buddha,
which is about life in a Tibetan town and the
Tibetans because their Tibetan Buddhists are constantly going through this
(22:46):
patriotic education. And I mean, I think the idea in
these kind of regimes is not to have again a
competing ideology. That's why North Korea is, you know, so
so so strict at banning Christianity, and China has a
lot of restrictions on Christianity as well, not not like
(23:10):
North Korea, but fill a lot and you don't want
you don't want you have one message and you want
to stick with it, and you don't want the people
to have any any competing affections.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
So how did the you know, the person the originator
of the North Korea as we know it. How what
did they do? What did the institute? How do they
manage it? Is there a playbook that all authoritarians use?
It kind of is, isn't there?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
And yeah, actually there's a very funny book, the Dictator's Handbook.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
All right, So how did it go? How long did
it take? What were the key points?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Well, strong, strong ideology, propaganda and fear, you know, ruthless
repression of dissent. But this is North Korea is a
very interesting story and it act. I met somebody recently,
a Wall Street Journal reporter. This is a little sneak preview,
who is doing a book on Kim Il sung. Kim
(24:10):
Il sung was the founder of North Korea. Came out
of this, came out of the World War two, the
end of the war. And Kim Ill sung came from
a missionary family. You know, he was a lot of
his close relations were involved with the church, and I
think he saw the power of religion, you know, as
(24:35):
a as a means of control, but you know in
a bien he used it in a bad way. So
you know, they developed their own ideology. They call it
duce and it has to do with it's translated sort
of a self reliance. But we do everything ourselves and
we keep that outsiders. This is very important. You can't
(24:56):
have any foreign influences, so you know, you think of
other countries maybe being hostile to to to foreigners, that
North Korea is the most xenophobic because you don't want,
you know, any you don't want people to to know
anything outside of what's in you know, their hermetically sealed,
(25:19):
sealed bubble.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
What are their homes like?
Speaker 4 (25:25):
These are great questions. This is actually why I wrote
the book. You know when I when I started Nothing
to Envy, I wanted to I felt like all the
books about North Korea were about you know, weapons of
mass destruction and you know the history of the Korean
War and this and that. But I really wanted to
(25:45):
know how people lived. There's two sorry, so I'm just
so happy that you asked that question. There's there's very
basic cookie cutter housing that people in my book lived,
what they called Harmonica housing, and the harmonicas you had
like chambers next to each other like in a harmonica
(26:11):
and all all together. And most of them they shared
an outhouse, a storage unit.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Like a one building with a bunch of doors in
a row.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Yes, yeah, yeah, but there's I mean, there's nicer apartments
in Pyonyang that are you know, like just nicer and Pianyang.
It depends where your social status is. But the basic
unit has if there's heating, it's under the floor and
you cook on that same heating unit. And there's not
(26:45):
a lot of furniture, and that actually is not necessarily poverty.
That that is a bit of the style of sleeping
on quilts on the floor and you know, eating on
a low table. It's it's that kind of the simplicity
is built in, and people have like a cabinet for
(27:07):
their clothing. They don't have a lot of clothing. You know,
the more elite people. Everybody in our Korea is ranked.
It's a very hierarchical society, and the more elite people
will have an apartment and some of them will have uh,
you know, indoor plumbing.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Some of them will have indoor plumbing.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Some yeah, right, folks, try that for a while plumbing,
you come running right back to democracy of quite quickly.
What do they believe about the West? Do they believe
that we're out to get them? Do they believe that
we're inferior to them and poor and ignorant and they
are superior?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
What do they believe?
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Well, they think that we're you know, capitalists, devils, devils
are going to corrupt them. And the press coverage of
the US is always you know, crime, home and homelessness.
(28:11):
I mean, plenty of homelessness in North Korea, but it's different.
A lot of homeless children, but crime, homelessness. And you know,
when they'll show they always like to show scenes of
democracy in Taiwan where you have a very vibrant, you know,
(28:32):
a vibrant climate and lawmakers sort of you know, screaming
at each other and occasionally punching each other. They want
to show the chaotic nature of democracy, so.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
They show that we are brutes. All right, Do you
see any do you see other countries towards this? Is
there any examples?
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Well, China has become more like North career, as I said,
they have this patriotic education. There's a lot of bands
on you know, certain kinds of haircuts, men who excuse me,
men who look too effeminate, girls who look too masculine.
(29:20):
There's been much more control on the Chinese media than
in the past. I left China in twenty fourteen and
there was a much more vibrant cultural life that has
you know, sort of been ampened by a lot of
these resignations. And it's also very hard to get on
(29:43):
the internet now in China. You can only get you know,
sort of Chinese media. You get the Chinese equivalent of TikTok.
You can get Chinese news, but Google, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,
all that is banned in China.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
What happens if you appear too effeminate? Do you get?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
What if you get a haircut that the state deems
too effeminate, what happens to you?
Speaker 4 (30:14):
I you know, I don't think you'd be rested in China,
but it would not be good professionally.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Which speaking with North Korea for a moment.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Yeah, well, North Korea has certain types of allowed haircuts.
I've never heard of anybody being executed for being effeminate,
but you get in trouble. I mean, there are very
strict rules on what you can wear and how you
could look I mean blue jeans had been banned for years.
(30:48):
I think that's loosened slightly. But you'll see in a
barber shop, you know, acceptable haircut, acceptable haircuts for men,
acceptable haircuts for women, and you don't deviate from that.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Normally, there would be a black market for say things
like jeens, like like there wasn't a Soviet Union and.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
The like.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Is there a black market there?
Speaker 4 (31:20):
Not for clothing, but there's a black market for media.
I mean you can get a lot of a lot
of content on a memory stick. They're given the Internet,
So there's there are foreign TV shows and movies that
(31:41):
are sold illegally. I mean it used to be DVDs.
Now it's you know, basically thumb drives. No, no, this
is an old technology to us. But you know, keep
in mind you can't stream there, so you know, I
think it depends on the person and you know how
(32:04):
gutsy they are, and there's there's certain crackdowns, but I
think a lot of people are listening to foreign songs
and watching foreign foreign programs.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
I'm gonna take one more break, and they have one
more question, one more question for you about North Korea.
Then we'll get to your book. You're excellent notebook. It's
called Daughters of the Bamboo Grow from China to America.
A true story of abduction, adoption, and separated twins. So
that's a real narrative in this in this one, and
that's coming up right after this on.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
WBZ Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
It is Nightside with Dan Ray, Bradley Jay tonight In
or Dan Ray, and our guest is Barbara Demick, author
of three books that I probably more but three books
that I'm very interested in, and I'm actually going to
read cover to cover, even the introduction and everything before
and after, because there are topics that I'm.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Very much into.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
We're trying to make you understand of how horrible life
and his Italian totalitarian nation is. And the reason I
wanted to do this is because I'm finding out that
significantly fewer people in the United States thanks democracy, think
democracy is important.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Okay, I think it's because you're spoiled. You don't have
any idea.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
You think what we have here can't go away, Well
it can, and it had it didn't did in China,
did in North Korea. I don't know about Russia. I
don't know when Russia was fun. You're gonna go way
back there. But Barbara Demic, here's it. Here's a question
for you. Talk a little bit about Kim Jong UN's excesses,
(33:49):
but where he lives.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
But all those people are dirt poor.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
He gets all the money when he said, when he
sends troops to Russia to fight and die, immediately he
gets paid.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
That money doesn't go to their families, does it? He
keeps it? Am I right?
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:08):
The regime keeps most of this money. You know they
have They North Korean send workers overseas, you know, not
just as soldiers, but does you know to do forestry
work and different kNs of manufacture. And it's a great
privilege to go overseas because you get paid more and
(34:28):
you have enough to eat. But they keep very little
of the money themselves. That's all goes to support the regime.
And you know his luxurious lifestyle. His his father used
to you know, bring in sushi every day from the
markets in Japan and the special race they had shopping
(34:53):
trips to Paris for the fois gras or the wines.
It was always, you know, the best of everything.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Do you think that Kim Jong un thinks he's a
good guy.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Yeah, probably he does because he was raised to believe
he's a god. Well, he was educated in Switzerland as
a child, so you know, maybe he knows a bit otherwise.
But I think these these people who you know, live
in such a bubble where you know, nobody would dare
(35:31):
say anything yeah frost to them. Yeah, I think they
do believe that they're God.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
You'd think that there's some once again about about good
being wired. And you would think that the knowledge that
you're killing people, causing them a lot of suffering, taking
their money, making them live in squalor while you're getting
fuegra delivered from France, you would think that.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
There'd be an inkling of g.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Maybe I shouldn't do this, But as it turns out,
human decency I don't think is natural. It's taught, and
he didn't get taught that.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
I think people believe that because he's a god, he's
a godlike figure. You know, he can have whatever. They
don't say, oh, look there's a gold plated toilet. You know,
there is the food flown in from Paris. They don't
look at it that way.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
By the way, I never saw the big attraction for
a gold plated toilet. If there are other things, I
think I'd rather have one more thing that's always interesting.
By the way, there's this guy who does a travel
blog called bald and Broke, and he goes to places
like no he might have even gone to North Korea.
He goes to the worst places, and I recommend that
(36:56):
YouTube travel channel bald and Broke, and people speaking of
going there, when the press goes there, when the West
goes there. They have totally fake shopping malls and then
even a fake airport. Am I correct or a fake
portion of the airport anyway? Is that true?
Speaker 4 (37:14):
I don't know about the airport, but I've seen the
fake shopping malls they have, you know, goods that are
up front that you have looked very shiny and nice
in the windows, but you can't buy them. And you know,
we always talk about, you know, the people who are
opposed unnaturally wearing nice clothes and chanyang, and they're just
(37:38):
they're designed for show. The North Koreans are very into
making an impressure, so not.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Just anybody can go there, right, there's a big, a
big deal. To get to get in, you obviously must
have gone correct.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Yeah, I went. I went three times. It took me
a long time to get in because there's a US citizen.
I was not, you know, the favorite passport. But I
did go and book three times to Piang get more
two places, just like North of the d C.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I keep you there because we get the break and
then we want to get into your new book. Next,
Daughters of the Bamboo Grow from China to America. True
story of abduction, adoption and separated twins. That's coming up
here on nights Side with our guess Barbara Demick. I'm
Brad the Jay in for Dan Ray and we'll continue
after the news here on WBZ News Radio ten thirty
It's Night's Eyes with Dan Ray. I'm going easy Boston's
News Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
This is Night's Side, But Dan Ray, I'm Bradley Jay
and for Dan tonight. You know, I am concerned that
fewer and fewer Americans care about democracy, fewer think that
it works. I'm not just guessing. If you check poles,
you'll see things like this. This is an Open Society
(00:27):
Foundation poll shows that over a third of eighteen to
thirty five year olds are supportive of strong a strong
leader who would bypass legislatures and elections, and only fifty
seven percent field democracy is preferable to any other form
of government. That's concerning these These people are not being
(00:49):
told and shown what life is like under the alternative systems.
And for a long time I've wanted to do this segment,
partly because I will want to instruct you so you
can instruct your kids, but also I wanted to find
out more details about life in places like China and
(01:10):
North Korea, particularly North Korea and Russia. But tonight we're
going to concentrate on North Korea, but we're also going
to take a look at China. And our guest is
an author of books.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
On both of those situations.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Our guest is Barbara Demik, who is a writer for
the Los Angeles Times and a contributor to the New Yorker,
and she has graciously agreed to come on and talk
about life in North Korea as well as China.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Thanks for being with us, Hey.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Thanks for inviting me. Really happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
And I know that the North Korea book is an
older book and you've talked about it a lot, and
you're more excited to talk about your new book. But
we'll get to both of them. I mean, this is
really important.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So I guess the way to start out is to simply,
uh give.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
An overview of life in North Korea, and then I
have many questions.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
We'll drill down. Okay, okay, sure, let me give the
name of.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
The book, though first I apologize nothing to envy. Ordinary
Lives in North Korea is book number one. We'll talk
about in book number two, Daughters of the Bamboo Grove
from China to America, a true story of abduction, adoption,
and separate twins. But that will also expose life in China.
So about life in North Korea?
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Now, Yeah, it's funny. When I was listening to your
introduction and you were saying people don't appreciate democracy. I
was thinking myself, well, this is a perfect segue to
talk about North Korea and China as well, because these
(02:55):
well we'll start with North Korea, because North Korea, I think,
is the ultimate authoritarian state. There's you know, no no
freedom of speech, no freedom of movement, no internet. You know,
if you're trying to tell young people about why they
(03:15):
should appreciate freedom, no internet. North Korea is the only
country in the world as far as I know, that
has cut itself off deliberately from the Internet because they
don't want outside influences. And you know, they have only
one one source of news, and it's state news, and
(03:36):
it's it's a crime in North Korea to listen to
any kind of foreign broadcast. It's a crime to you
don't read anything foreign, even a Bible, especially a Bible,
because there's just one state ideology and you can't, you know,
can't deviate from that.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
So if you are caught watching some non state TV
or something on the internet, how severe would your punishment
be in North Korea?
Speaker 4 (04:07):
You could be executed, but you certainly go to a
prison camp. And you know that might be listening to
something very minor, you know, a rock song from China
or from South Korea from a rival country. The TVs
(04:28):
and radios are set to one station. You can't turn
a dial. And people are clever they try different devices,
but there's no deviating from that.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
So I'm curious, how hard do the people try.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Is the urge to get information I think from the
outside so strong that they will risk their lives to
do it or risk going to a prison camp for
fifty years?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Do people still try to do it?
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Well? Some do.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
One of the people in my book, I call him Johnsong,
was like a very you know, clever young man who
had studied computer technology and engineering, and he was pretty
gutsy and he did, you know, term his camera with
his radio. But I think most people don't, you know,
(05:23):
even if they don't believe in the system, they know
they don't want to get in trouble and they just
you know, sormarch along. So you see these images from
North Korea of you know, people who's stepping you know
and chanting the name of the leader, and I don't
know if they actually believe. I think less and less
(05:46):
people believe, but they do what they have to to
stay alive.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I just had an idea for parents.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Instead of just telling your children, hey, in North Korea
they don't have a well, you could do is play
a game called.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Let's go to North Korea. Today.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
We're going to play Let's go to North Korea and
you try to reenact life what it's like there, no internet,
no TV, terrible food, you know, punished some sort of
punishment all day.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
And after a.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Few days of life in North Korea games, they probably
get the idea.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Now I don't.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
They don't get any information. To my mind, the human
mind is a blank slave. It's like an empty hard drive.
You might think something's wired in. You might think the
notion of good or evil is wired in. I used
to think that. I don't anymore. And since the North
Koreans are born into a vacuum, anything you put in
there they will completely believe. So I have the feeling
(06:49):
and you would know better than I do that they
are all in and they believe, And how would it
be How could it be otherwise?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Do they get secret info from people who have escaped, because.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
If they don't, they're really going to believe that Kim
Jong oun is actually God, just like Muslims believe Allah
is God and the Christians believe their God is God.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Same thing. I don't have much faith in anything wired in.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Yeah, that's well, that's it really is creatle the grave
and the name of my book. Nothing to envy comes
from a children's song that I'll spare your poor listeners
my terrible singing. But it's a song a bottom up
sad and we have nothing to envy in this world
because we live under the care of the fatherly leader.
(07:38):
It was Kim il sung, then Kim Jong il, now
Kim Jong un and this is this is this slogan
is very important and what used to be on the currency,
it was on banners on the kindergartens. And for people
to believe this, they can't see any glimpses of the
(07:59):
outside world. So the things that the media that's most
bad in North Korea are it's like Chinese television, or
it's even more South Korean television, where you might see
somebody you know at the market buying fruit, you know,
(08:20):
with their rice cooker, big bowl of rice, hamburger, you know,
some meat. They anything that quote unquote glorifies foreign lifestyles
because they have to be, you know, convinced that they
have nothing to end me from anywhere else in the world.
And that's that that is the message that's hammered in.
(08:44):
But unfortunately for the leadership, Koreans are pretty smart and
so they'll get they get funny glimpses of things. You know,
they'll at their markets. There's a there's a very long
border with China, more than eight hundred miles, and products
come in from China. And you know, historically the North
(09:09):
Koreans thought they were much richer and more sophisticated than
the Chinese. But they see, you know, pretty nice manufactured
goods coming in from China, and that has begun to
know rule their faith in the leadership.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
You know, I heard that the soldiers that went to
fight for Russia were unliked by the Russian soldiers because
they're they were stealing everything, and that that I guess
was part of their culture because they're so desperate. You know,
you can you can steal or die. That's the only
(09:50):
way you can survive there because it's so poor. Does
that ring true?
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Yeah, anything we take for granted, a plastic bag, discarded cardboard.
The people in my book talked about how possible it
was to get paper to write a letter. You know,
just the most common common items are missing.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
We're going to talk more about life there, like from
morning till night, how many people live in a home,
all the sort of things that the small things that
are that are big things, and all the while we talk,
I want you to consider this. It's a slippery slope
to the life of a North Korean. It doesn't happen overnight.
North Korea was not always that way. It happens when
(10:36):
freedoms are taken away and freedoms of expression, freedoms of
all sorts of freedoms, for example. And something that made
me quite nervous was recently I heard that in the
United States museums were going to be examined to ensure
that their exhibits were patriotic. Now, how totalitarian does that sound?
(10:58):
How North Korean does that sound? How Chinese does that sound?
So all the time you're listening to us, remember that
one of the reasons we're talking about this is to
tell you what can happen in other countries that right
now you think, oh, they'll never go like, they will
never become totalitarian. But it happens, so we'll take a
(11:23):
break and continue on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Well, thanks for being with us.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I invite you to call now as we talk about
life in North Korea and the number of six one seven,
six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Also, you
may want to try this out if you're shy, there's
another way to contact us, ask a question, get involved.
You get the iHeartRadio app, download the app, and then
(11:58):
you while you're listening to a side on the app,
you tap the red microphone talk peck button in the
top right corner.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
It's big, it's easy to see. Just do it. It's
super duper simple.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Try it out and you send us your personalized audio message.
It could be a question. It's kind of like a call,
only it's pre recorded. Maybe you're shy some I know
that a lot of people are. Maybe this would help
you get involved and maybe we'll play it during the
show and at the appropriate time.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Very simple.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Once again, hit the red button at the top right
corner of the app while listening to night Side, this
is Nightside, and send us your audio message. And we're
the barber demic who's written books on a super interesting
book on China and another one on North Korea. And
there's actually a third that I'm going to delve into
a little bit, the Sarajevo book, because I'm fascinated by
(12:46):
that button.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Now we're focusing on.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
We're focusing on North Korea, and I have a lot
of questions, so I guess there'd be a shorter question,
shorter answer stage of the.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
The show here. Now, do people own their own cars
at all?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (13:05):
No, people don't do not own cars?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Okay, Okay, America, how does that grab you? That's not
gonna sit very well with America.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, And when you play North Korea, play the game
North Korea with your children to show them what it's
like in it and the totalitarian government today. Kids, we
won't have any cars, we won't have any money. We're
going to go visit a jail, and we're going to
eat rice with mold in it.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
That's what they say.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Hey, hey, hey, rice is a luxury a luxury good.
You're probably gonna be eating some kind of corn mush
corn ground up with the husks and the cobs. You
might not get meat, you know, once or twice a year.
Forget about eggs, forget about fruit.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So yeah, so those a you folks, younger folks, any
folks that think, hey, maybe democracy is not working like
it used to think about that? How'd you like your
meal every day to be ground up corn cobs and
you have to eat the corn and the husk and everything.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Okay, now what do they do for money?
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Well, I was just going to say, you know what
they do for fun? You know, they do have computer games,
and they have a kind of phone that has games
on it, and games are considered to kind of numb
the brain. So there's certain things you can do to
distract yourself. You know, they have I think, pretty advanced
(14:40):
computer graphics, but there's no information. So I'll tell you
something great change. The thing that's the most banned in
North Korea is the Bible. The Bible will get you
in more shoubril than like looking at pornography.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Because it gives you hope.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
The competing ideology. They they actually plagiarized a lot from
the Bible. You know, North Korea used to be very Christian.
Jianyang was once considered the Jerusalem of the East, so
there was they needed to wipe out, you know, any
kind of religion to replace, replace it with their own ideology.
(15:25):
And so for example, Kim Jung Ill, the second leader,
the father of the current leader, you know, he was
his birth was said to be heralded by a double
rainbow and a bright star. And they have all this,
all this, you know, hagiography, you know, making the leaders
out to be gods and themselves. You know, they boast
(15:47):
about their golf game. It's like somebody else, but I
won't get into that. You know, the perfect, the perfect
golf game, the great scores. The leader, you know is
is great. He's the greatest in what ever he does.
And a lot of the state media is you know,
is just designed to tout his wonders.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Okay, let's take a call. This is Joe Anne in
West Roxbury. Joe Anne, you're on night side.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Hello.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Hi, It's been a long time since I talked to you, Bradley.
Jay was when I first retired and I was staying
up really late at night when you were on Overnight.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Welcome back. Thanks.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
So I read a book by Adam Johnson when the
Policer Prize in twenty twelve called The Orphan Master's Son,
and it was a work of fiction, but he did
travel to North Korea, and then of course he had
to be escorted, and he did all this research and
it was an incredible book, and I recommended it highly
(16:49):
to some people, but I warned them that you have
to be prepared to be disturbed. And then the copy
of the book I had happened to have an interview
the author, you know, even at the end, and the
author and Johnson was asked if everything he wrote in
(17:10):
the book was true about all these horrific things that
were happening in North Korea, and he shared that there
was only one thing he wrote that wasn't true, and
it was about people who were about to die and
were in the hospital and blood letting them and using
their blood, you know, to treat other people. He said
that wasn't true. But there were many things that he
(17:33):
learned about that were horrific that he did not include
in the book. So again it won the Paul surprise.
Excuse me, now you have.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Another book to read.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's called Nothing to Envy, Ordinary Lives in North Korea,
and that's our Yes.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
You know, I loved Adam's book, absolutely loved it, but
it is fiction, and there's things in there are fictional,
and this is something as I teach also, and I
really want you know, readers to distinguish like what I wrote,
which involves real people, right, like all went through this
(18:16):
fact this incredible fact checking process with the New Yorker
magazine where you know, they called the people and asked them,
you know you said you you know you ate this.
Was it a squash? Was it a pumpkin? Blah blah
blah blah blah, you know down the detail. Adam's book
is brilliant. I would not you know, try to outdo
(18:39):
him as a novelist, but there are things in there
that are not that are you know, are fiction. Like
I think I'm remembering exactly. There's some like kind of
lobotomy things and I don't remember, it's a while since
I read it. But you know, it's just I just
want to get that in because I saw some reviews
(19:00):
Amazon that compared the books and they called mine a
novel and his nonfiction. Oh you know, it's like you
have no idea how much time they've spend making every
detail is correct.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Wow, that currently listed is listed as you know, fiction,
but he has a lot of you know there's a
lot of truth in it, but it is listed as fiction. Yeah,
in the book there is a lot.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
There's a lot of truth in it, and it's a
brilliant book. I loved it.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Joan, thank you so much for you know, checking back
in excellent call.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
After this break, I want to get at one of
the crucial points, and that is how did it happen?
It used to be considered a very Christian nation, and
then how it wasn't It didn't take long to happen.
I'm curious if you have a handle on the mechanics
of how that that particular leader or a series made
(20:04):
it happen. And do you see these things happening in
other countries? Could it happen here? Could it happen in
other Western countries? Could it happen in Hungary? Could it
happened where you see hints of totaler totalitarianism? Or is
it something about these countries that would prevent them from happening.
I'd be interested to know, and hopefully Barbara demic Well
let us know. And Barbara, I promise equal time for
(20:26):
your new book as wells WBZ News Radio ten thirty.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ in
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Barbara demic life in North Korea.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
It's not pretty, but could it happen here or some
intermediate country where democracy is kind of shaky, like maybe
like hungry? And this is kind of a lightning round
because I do want to get to your other book,
but I have your most recent new book concerning China
(21:00):
that I want to but I do want to get
go ahead.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Yeah, I would just say it's kind of it's kind
of the same story when we're talking about the failures
of democracy, and it's funny. I mean, I spent more
than fifteen years covering Asia, and you know, there was
this conventional wisdom that you know, with time, China was
(21:27):
going to become more like the United States. North Korea
was going to become more like the United States. This
kind of started in the nineties after the collapse of
the Soviet Union, the fall of the Berlin War. Your
democracy will triumph. But what has actually happened is that
the US has become more like China. And you know,
(21:48):
every day we see you know, we see parallels. And
I have a lot of friends who lived in China
with me. As you know, foreign correspondence and it's like wow, yeah,
just like China and in some ways just like North Korea.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I guess my biggest shock is when I heard flow
of the idea that they were going to go through
museum exhibits to make sure they were patriotic. That is,
that is off the shots. That's that's a giant step
in the wrong direction. That's the giant step towards North Korea.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Yeah, they have in China, so I'm talking about China,
but a lot of it is the same. They have
what's called patriotic education, and they do that all over
the place. I actually have another book called Eat the Buddha,
which is about life in a Tibetan town and the
Tibetans because their Tibetan Buddhists are constantly going through this
(22:46):
patriotic education. And I mean, I think the idea in
these kind of regimes is not to have again a
competing ideology. That's why North Korea is, you know, so
so so strict at banning Christianity, and China has a
lot of restrictions on Christianity as well, not not like
(23:10):
North Korea, but fill a lot and you don't want
you don't want you have one message and you want
to stick with it, and you don't want the people
to have any any competing affections.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
So how did the you know, the person the originator
of the North Korea as we know it. How what
did they do? What did the institute? How do they
manage it? Is there a playbook that all authoritarians use?
It kind of is, isn't there?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
And yeah, actually there's a very funny book, the Dictator's Handbook.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
All right, So how did it go? How long did
it take? What were the key points?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Well, strong, strong ideology, propaganda and fear, you know, ruthless
repression of dissent. But this is North Korea is a
very interesting story and it act. I met somebody recently,
a Wall Street Journal reporter. This is a little sneak preview,
who is doing a book on Kim Il sung. Kim
(24:10):
Il sung was the founder of North Korea. Came out
of this, came out of the World War two, the
end of the war. And Kim Ill sung came from
a missionary family. You know, he was a lot of
his close relations were involved with the church, and I
think he saw the power of religion, you know, as
(24:35):
a as a means of control, but you know in
a bien he used it in a bad way. So
you know, they developed their own ideology. They call it
duce and it has to do with it's translated sort
of a self reliance. But we do everything ourselves and
we keep that outsiders. This is very important. You can't
(24:56):
have any foreign influences, so you know, you think of
other countries maybe being hostile to to to foreigners, that
North Korea is the most xenophobic because you don't want,
you know, any you don't want people to to know
anything outside of what's in you know, their hermetically sealed,
(25:19):
sealed bubble.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
What are their homes like?
Speaker 4 (25:25):
These are great questions. This is actually why I wrote
the book. You know when I when I started Nothing
to Envy, I wanted to I felt like all the
books about North Korea were about you know, weapons of
mass destruction and you know the history of the Korean
War and this and that. But I really wanted to
(25:45):
know how people lived. There's two sorry, so I'm just
so happy that you asked that question. There's there's very
basic cookie cutter housing that people in my book lived,
what they called Harmonica housing, and the harmonicas you had
like chambers next to each other like in a harmonica
(26:11):
and all all together. And most of them they shared
an outhouse, a storage unit.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Like a one building with a bunch of doors in
a row.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Yes, yeah, yeah, but there's I mean, there's nicer apartments
in Pyonyang that are you know, like just nicer and Pianyang.
It depends where your social status is. But the basic
unit has if there's heating, it's under the floor and
you cook on that same heating unit. And there's not
(26:45):
a lot of furniture, and that actually is not necessarily poverty.
That that is a bit of the style of sleeping
on quilts on the floor and you know, eating on
a low table. It's it's that kind of the simplicity
is built in, and people have like a cabinet for
(27:07):
their clothing. They don't have a lot of clothing. You know,
the more elite people. Everybody in our Korea is ranked.
It's a very hierarchical society, and the more elite people
will have an apartment and some of them will have uh,
you know, indoor plumbing.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Some of them will have indoor plumbing.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Some yeah, right, folks, try that for a while plumbing,
you come running right back to democracy of quite quickly.
What do they believe about the West? Do they believe
that we're out to get them? Do they believe that
we're inferior to them and poor and ignorant and they
are superior?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
What do they believe?
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Well, they think that we're you know, capitalists, devils, devils
are going to corrupt them. And the press coverage of
the US is always you know, crime, home and homelessness.
(28:11):
I mean, plenty of homelessness in North Korea, but it's different.
A lot of homeless children, but crime, homelessness. And you know,
when they'll show they always like to show scenes of
democracy in Taiwan where you have a very vibrant, you know,
(28:32):
a vibrant climate and lawmakers sort of you know, screaming
at each other and occasionally punching each other. They want
to show the chaotic nature of democracy, so.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
They show that we are brutes. All right, Do you
see any do you see other countries towards this? Is
there any examples?
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Well, China has become more like North career, as I said,
they have this patriotic education. There's a lot of bands
on you know, certain kinds of haircuts, men who excuse me,
men who look too effeminate, girls who look too masculine.
(29:20):
There's been much more control on the Chinese media than
in the past. I left China in twenty fourteen and
there was a much more vibrant cultural life that has
you know, sort of been ampened by a lot of
these resignations. And it's also very hard to get on
(29:43):
the internet now in China. You can only get you know,
sort of Chinese media. You get the Chinese equivalent of TikTok.
You can get Chinese news, but Google, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,
all that is banned in China.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
What happens if you appear too effeminate? Do you get?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
What if you get a haircut that the state deems
too effeminate, what happens to you?
Speaker 4 (30:14):
I you know, I don't think you'd be rested in China,
but it would not be good professionally.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Which speaking with North Korea for a moment.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Yeah, well, North Korea has certain types of allowed haircuts.
I've never heard of anybody being executed for being effeminate,
but you get in trouble. I mean, there are very
strict rules on what you can wear and how you
could look I mean blue jeans had been banned for years.
(30:48):
I think that's loosened slightly. But you'll see in a
barber shop, you know, acceptable haircut, acceptable haircuts for men,
acceptable haircuts for women, and you don't deviate from that.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Normally, there would be a black market for say things
like jeens, like like there wasn't a Soviet Union and.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
The like.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Is there a black market there?
Speaker 4 (31:20):
Not for clothing, but there's a black market for media.
I mean you can get a lot of a lot
of content on a memory stick. They're given the Internet,
So there's there are foreign TV shows and movies that
(31:41):
are sold illegally. I mean it used to be DVDs.
Now it's you know, basically thumb drives. No, no, this
is an old technology to us. But you know, keep
in mind you can't stream there, so you know, I
think it depends on the person and you know how
(32:04):
gutsy they are, and there's there's certain crackdowns, but I
think a lot of people are listening to foreign songs
and watching foreign foreign programs.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
I'm gonna take one more break, and they have one
more question, one more question for you about North Korea.
Then we'll get to your book. You're excellent notebook. It's
called Daughters of the Bamboo Grow from China to America.
A true story of abduction, adoption, and separated twins. So
that's a real narrative in this in this one, and
that's coming up right after this on.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
WBZ Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
It is Nightside with Dan Ray, Bradley Jay tonight In
or Dan Ray, and our guest is Barbara Demick, author
of three books that I probably more but three books
that I'm very interested in, and I'm actually going to
read cover to cover, even the introduction and everything before
and after, because there are topics that I'm.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Very much into.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
We're trying to make you understand of how horrible life
and his Italian totalitarian nation is. And the reason I
wanted to do this is because I'm finding out that
significantly fewer people in the United States thanks democracy, think
democracy is important.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Okay, I think it's because you're spoiled. You don't have
any idea.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
You think what we have here can't go away, Well
it can, and it had it didn't did in China,
did in North Korea. I don't know about Russia. I
don't know when Russia was fun. You're gonna go way
back there. But Barbara Demic, here's it. Here's a question
for you. Talk a little bit about Kim Jong UN's excesses,
(33:49):
but where he lives.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
But all those people are dirt poor.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
He gets all the money when he said, when he
sends troops to Russia to fight and die, immediately he
gets paid.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
That money doesn't go to their families, does it? He
keeps it? Am I right?
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:08):
The regime keeps most of this money. You know they
have They North Korean send workers overseas, you know, not
just as soldiers, but does you know to do forestry
work and different kNs of manufacture. And it's a great
privilege to go overseas because you get paid more and
(34:28):
you have enough to eat. But they keep very little
of the money themselves. That's all goes to support the regime.
And you know his luxurious lifestyle. His his father used
to you know, bring in sushi every day from the
markets in Japan and the special race they had shopping
(34:53):
trips to Paris for the fois gras or the wines.
It was always, you know, the best of everything.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Do you think that Kim Jong un thinks he's a
good guy.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Yeah, probably he does because he was raised to believe
he's a god. Well, he was educated in Switzerland as
a child, so you know, maybe he knows a bit otherwise.
But I think these these people who you know, live
in such a bubble where you know, nobody would dare
(35:31):
say anything yeah frost to them. Yeah, I think they
do believe that they're God.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
You'd think that there's some once again about about good
being wired. And you would think that the knowledge that
you're killing people, causing them a lot of suffering, taking
their money, making them live in squalor while you're getting
fuegra delivered from France, you would think that.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
There'd be an inkling of g.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Maybe I shouldn't do this, But as it turns out,
human decency I don't think is natural. It's taught, and
he didn't get taught that.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
I think people believe that because he's a god, he's
a godlike figure. You know, he can have whatever. They
don't say, oh, look there's a gold plated toilet. You know,
there is the food flown in from Paris. They don't
look at it that way.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
By the way, I never saw the big attraction for
a gold plated toilet. If there are other things, I
think I'd rather have one more thing that's always interesting.
By the way, there's this guy who does a travel
blog called bald and Broke, and he goes to places
like no he might have even gone to North Korea.
He goes to the worst places, and I recommend that
(36:56):
YouTube travel channel bald and Broke, and people speaking of
going there, when the press goes there, when the West
goes there. They have totally fake shopping malls and then
even a fake airport. Am I correct or a fake
portion of the airport anyway? Is that true?
Speaker 4 (37:14):
I don't know about the airport, but I've seen the
fake shopping malls they have, you know, goods that are
up front that you have looked very shiny and nice
in the windows, but you can't buy them. And you know,
we always talk about, you know, the people who are
opposed unnaturally wearing nice clothes and chanyang, and they're just
(37:38):
they're designed for show. The North Koreans are very into
making an impressure, so not.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Just anybody can go there, right, there's a big, a
big deal. To get to get in, you obviously must
have gone correct.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Yeah, I went. I went three times. It took me
a long time to get in because there's a US citizen.
I was not, you know, the favorite passport. But I
did go and book three times to Piang get more
two places, just like North of the d C.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I keep you there because we get the break and
then we want to get into your new book. Next,
Daughters of the Bamboo Grow from China to America. True
story of abduction, adoption and separated twins. That's coming up
here on nights Side with our guess Barbara Demick. I'm
Brad the Jay in for Dan Ray and we'll continue
after the news here on WBZ News Radio ten thirty
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