February 18, 2025 • 39 mins
The Massachusetts Teachers Association is under fire for alleged antisemitic learning materials on the Israel-Hamas war. The MA Special Commission on Combatting Antisemitism gathered more than two dozen examples of materials distributed by the MTA that they said were problematic, presenting a one-sided viewpoint that appeared to be Pro-Palestinian in nature. MTA President Max Page was questioned during a special hearing to address the matter, in which he told members, the materials “emerged organically among the union’s members and he did not want to censor individual members.” Attorney Jeff Robbins checked in.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZY Constance video.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Last week, there was a very interesting hearing at the
state House. There's a special Commission on combating Anti Semitism
at the Massachusetts State House, and on the hot seat
was a gentleman by the name of Max Page. He's
the president of the Massachusetts Teachers Association, the largest teachers
union in New England, represents one hundred and seventeen thousand
(00:30):
members with us tonight is a friend of this program,
Jeff Robbins, former the director of the Anti Defamation League
here in New England. And this hearing Jeff at the
State House last week drew some very interesting questions and
(00:55):
some inadequate answers from Max Page. Could you set it
up a little bit. There's an article that I've read.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
In a.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Publication called The Free Press. I'm not all that familiar with,
but the article says, welcome to Homassachusetts. Rampant and ubiquitous
anti semitism is making its way into the largest teachers
union in New England. Lawmakers say this is frightening.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Welcome Jeff, Thank you, Dana, thank you for having me. Well,
there are sort of two pieces to it. Shortly after
the mass slaughter that occurred on October seventh. The Massachusetts
Teachers Association, which promptly denounced not the slaughter but the
Israeli quote unquote genocide, trying to prevent another slaughter, commissioned
(01:49):
a fellow who may be the last person in Massachusetts
who could have been commissioned to put together objectively so
called educational resources for teachers to use in their schools
with kids teaching them about the conflict. And to say
that the materials were biased doesn't begin to state it.
(02:11):
The fellow that they asked to commission this Villa name
Ricardo Rosa, had praised terrorists, had supported a professor who
called Zionist swine and the like. So, putting aside how
you feel about the conflict, the notion this guy was
in a position to develop educational materials that presented the
conflict in anything close to a fair fashion was ludicrous
(02:35):
and intellectually insulting, the more so from a teacher and
from a union. What happened this past week, this has
been a controversy, as you know, over the last year,
was that the legislative commission looking into anti Semitism went
beyond the question of whether or not this stuff was
just ridiculously biased and an affront. But whether or not
(02:57):
the materials that were disseminated under the leadership of this
fellow constituted blatant anti Semitism, and of course they surely did.
They featured, for example, the Star of David comprised of
dollar bills. They had a poster that was distributed telling
saying f off Zionists, describing Zionists as snakes and other stuff.
(03:23):
This is the kind of stuff which had it been
people of color or anybody else, would have never gotten
out of the starting gate. And so this examination is
the testimony. The hearing at the state House was a
questioning of the head of the Teachers Association as to
how this possibly could be justified. And among the gems
(03:44):
that came out of this testimony was the question by
one of the members of the legislative, Simon Cataldo, asking
him about the Star of David made of dollar bills. Quote,
you'd agree this is anti semitic image recorrect, And here's
what the president of the Massachusetts Teacher Association, the head
(04:05):
of a teachers union replied. He replied, I'm not going
to evaluate that. So you've got two problems. One is
absurd bias in our schools, and the second is blatant
and a Semitism.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, we attempted to have the president, we invited once
again the president of the teachers Union, Max Page, to
join the conversation tonight, and also we certainly would have
welcomed the vice president, a woman named Deb McCarthy. They
sent us a pully brief statement, but I'd like to
(04:39):
reach us a bit of it. In meeting with the
Special Commission on Combating Anti Semitism in Massachusetts, the Massachusetts
Teachers Union Association, excuse me, had hoped for honest dialogue
and an exchange of ideas. Instead, the president of the
union and one of its members were subjected to two
hours of political grants that did not further the cause
(05:02):
of combating anti Semitism. So the question that was asked
is being characterized as grandstanding, and you're correct. I've seen
this picture, if you will, of dollar bills made into
a star of David, which of course is just an
(05:24):
old blood libel that you know, money is what drives
Jewish decisions, and it's deplorable that his response to that
was was simply he was not going to respond to it,
He's not going to dignify that question with an answer.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Yeah, you know, on top of everything else. What an
insult that the head of the Massachusetts that the Teacher
Association itself would issue a statement like that, unable to
answer a simple question about whether or not that was
anti Semitic imagery teacher. The head of the Teachers Association says,
I'm not going to evaluate that, and then tries to
(06:07):
basically respond to the fact that it was such a
pathetic answer by accusing the person who asked him the
question of grand standing or of not engaging in an
honest dialogue. It's just breathtaking.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So what happened today was my producer Marita sent left,
called and send an email to the mass Teachers Association
basically explaining to them that she was reaching out from
WZ News Radio. Just left you a voicemail as well.
We're looking to talk about this topic tonight at nine
(06:43):
and we're wondering if this is spokes for us from
the MTA. We'll join Dan this evening to discuss even
if it's for a segment or two. It's all done remotely,
so via telephone, no needs to travel anywhere in person.
We can be flexible, so please let us know whether
it's just to know if we can coordinate something for
this evening. And the response came back fairly quickly from
(07:05):
someone named Scott McClellan, who I guess is their PR person.
I can't set anything up, sorry, I hope Dan and
you realize that the resources are not items on the
front of our website, and that these are items available
to MTA members that the Board of Directors asked to
be provided to members in hopes of understanding the conflict
(07:25):
and being able to teach about it.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
That doesn't even rise to the level. It doesn't rise
to the level of words salad. It's just garbage.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah. So Marita response, She says, oh, hey, Scott, okay,
we don't entirely understand that in terms of the availability
of the items to members compared to the public, et cetera.
That's why we're hoping to have you guys who want
to explain it further so we can understand that better.
Is there another statement you can provide us on the
(07:54):
latest And there was that statement that I read and
that's it. Now invited mister Page on several occasions and
in the statement he says, as noted in opening remarks,
by delivering this is the statement from the Teachers Association
by MTA President Max Page. Anti Semitism is inextricably linked
(08:17):
to so many other forms of prejudice and hate that
we need a wide ranging, vocal and unequivocal reput repudiation
of hate in all its forms. And yet he wasn't
able to address what dollar bills you know, made into
a star of David might necessarily represent in these teaching materials.
(08:39):
There's a disconnect here that I don't understand.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Jeff Well, you're being charitable when you refer to it
as a disconnect. It's just patent dishonesty. I mean, had
there been an honest response to the question by your producer,
will you agree to come in and have an honest
dialogue about these issues, then the answer would have been yeah.
When is not only fly but circumnavigate the globe? Because
(09:04):
there is no capacity to answer these questions at all,
a fact which was amply demonstrated in the state House,
and that they basically choose to respond by blaming those
who asked them the questions that they couldn't answer, as
though it's the fault of the people who ask the
questions rather than their fault. I mean that speaks volumes.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Jeff, we're going to take a quick break. We're going
to be joined by Sarah cob in just a moment.
Sarah's the deputy director, as you well know, of the
New England Anti Defamation League. And I also want to
invite our callers to join this conversation because I think
it's terribly important when materials are being given to teachers
for their I guess consideration, but those materials are not
(09:49):
being circulated widely so parents can see. As I understand
that I could be wrong here, maybe the Teachers' Union
has sent these materials to the parents of students. Well,
but I don't think so. I just don't think so.
And we'll ask Sarah about that. Jeff, I want you
to stay with us. We'll incorporate Sarah into this conversation.
And if there's anyone out there for the Massachusetts Teachers
(10:11):
Union who wants to join the conversation, be it mister
Page or missus McCarthy or any other representative, you are
more than welcome, and you're welcome any night to come
on and talk with with Jeff or with Sarah or
with other representatives of you know, long standing organizations here
(10:33):
in New England that have fought against anti Semitism wherever
it raises its ugly head. We'll be back on Nightside.
Our phone number is six one seven two five four
ten thirty. Also there's one at six one seven nine
three one ten thirty. B right back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I'm joined by Jeff Robbins, who is a syndicated columnist.
He's also a a learned, well well known attorney, specializes
in a number of different areas, but specifically also first Amendment.
We've talked with Jeff, Jeff as the former director of
(11:17):
the Anti Defamation League here in New England, and we're
now going to be joined by Sarah Colb, deputy director
of the New England Anti Defamation League. Sarah, welcome Tonight'sie.
Thanks for joining us. What is your reaction? I assume
it probably falls along the line of Jeff. With this
(11:39):
information that the Mass Teachers Association apparently has provided some
quote unquote teaching materials to their membership, which has a
pretty distinct and disgusting anti Semitic flavor.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Dan, thanks so much for having me and for having
this really critical conversation. Before I answer that, I just
think it's really important to take a step back and
look at what's happening in context. So, after October seventh,
the largest laughter of Jews since the Holocaust, Jews have
experienced an absolute tidal wave of anti Semitic hate that's
(12:17):
happening across the country, and that's certainly happening here in
this Commonwealth. It was already on the rise, but since
ten to seven it has gotten so much worse. Almost
immediately following the atrocities of ten to seven, the MTA
decided to blast Israel. This is in December of twenty
twenty three, blast Israel, accusing it of genocide against the Palestinians,
(12:39):
making no mention of the hostages or any of the
atrocities committed by Hamas, and essentially blaming Israel for.
Speaker 6 (12:45):
All the violence that has ensued.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
At the same time, they passed a resolution saying that
they were going to create curriculum on Israel Palestine. Now,
let's be clear, creating curriculum is not something that this Union,
as I understand it, had before, but for the first
time ever, they're going to create curriculum on an extraordinarily
complex global conflict. This is the same Union. Remind you know,
(13:12):
it's helpful to remember that just recently fought and won
a battle against standardized test standardized testing on you know,
regular topics like English and maths skills. But they instead
want to engage in providing curriculum on this highly complicated
global conflict that requires quite a bit of nuance and understanding.
(13:34):
So the resources were published a few months.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
Ago, and it's pretty obvious that.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
There is one single perspective that's being pushed.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Although there's a few unobjectionable resources sprinkled in, the overwhelming
majority are extremely empty Israel. And of course there are
many that are outright anti Semitic, like the ones that
you've been discussing so far and that we're highlighted by
the Commission. If the MTA were truly interested in providing
resources for teachers to promote their learning, as Max Page suggested,
(14:04):
how could it possibly justify giving such a one sided view,
and worse, including materials that engage in these hateful anti
Semitic tropes. Now I want to go back to what
I said earlier, it's not doing this in a vacuum.
It is doing this at a time when Jewish and
Israeli students are suffering immeasurably. The incidents of hate that
(14:27):
we are seeing in our K through twelve schools right
now have skyrocketed.
Speaker 6 (14:30):
I'll just give you.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
One tiny anecdote. Our twenty twenty four numbers are not
out yet, but we had one single week where at ADL,
New England, we got reports of five separate incidents of
swastika vandalism in a single week. So this is not normal,
but it is being normalized. And the MTA's actions here,
I think risk pouring gasoline on a raging fire. And
(14:54):
I have to say, while we're on the topic of gasoline,
that statement that you read by page in response to
the hearing feels like more gaslighting to me, which is
becoming all too common whenever the Jewish community points out
the clear anti Semitic hatre that's happening. We all know
what we found those images. But Paige refused to answer
the question and instead wants to shift our focus so
(15:17):
that we're talking about the motives of those asking the questions,
And he's doing that because he could not defend what
is obviously indefensible.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, I'm looking at some of these materials that apparently
were circulated to teachers. This is an article out of
the Free Press which is entitled Welcome to Hamassachusetts. So
there's the one that Jeff was referred to, which was
the dollar bill. Two dollar bills which are basically formed
(15:49):
in triangles, which are formed to make a star of David,
which is nothing more than in old trope and blood libels.
There's one this is from THEMS Teacher Association Resources on
Israel and Occupied Palestine Visuals and Art, a hundred posters
(16:12):
made by artists from across the world in solidarity with
Palestine from apartheid Art, and it's a picture of looks
like a young woman with a mask and an automatic weapon.
What was taken by force can only be restored by force.
Another poster Day of Rage, Decolonize this place, solidarity contingent.
(16:42):
And then there's there's one a picture of President Biden,
who's labeled a serial killer. More than twenty thousand Palestinian
death since October seventh, Lip service is no solution to genocide.
And then a children's book mentioned in The material called
Handle Us Return, published last year by the Palestinian Feminist Collective,
(17:06):
includes lines like a group of bullies called Zionists wanted land,
so they stole it by force and hurt many people.
The book ends with a call to action and quoting
from the article in The Free Press, urging readers to
quote help handle a Free Palestine, asking them to fill
in prompts such as I will raise funds for the
children of Palestine, buy I will chant this at a
(17:26):
Palestine protest. I mean, this is nothing more than brainwashing.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
This is an education right And Dan, you raised a
really important point earlier about you know where these materials
sent to parents. No, they were not. These were provided
on the member's only website of the MTA. Now quarry
why it shouldn't be made public when the MTA is
now engaging, apparently in the creation curriculum on such a
(17:52):
sensitive topic that we should we shouldn't allow people to
know what their tax dollars are paying for and what
their students are learning in school. That seems really questionable
to me.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It's it's it's it's more than questionable. And again, just
the the demeanor of Max Page, this is a very
active UH political union. They've they've fought long and hard
and successfully to eliminate the uh mcast graduation requirement. They've also,
i think, stated publicly that they want to allow teachers
(18:27):
UH unions to strike. In Massachusetts, in the city of
Newton a year ago, teachers Union was out on strike
for nearly three weeks, pretty much the entire month of
January last winter.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
UH.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
And now they are they are basically, in my opinion,
just my opinion, politicizing what is going on in the
Middle East. For for students here, this is the sort
of thing that would be discussed at a college or
a graduate student level. You would not be indoctrinating students
with this at either junior high, high school or elementary
(19:03):
school level. I'd like to take a break, Jeff and Sarah,
because at the bottom of the hour, I want to
invite callers to join the conversation six one seven two
ten thirty or six one seven nine three one ten thirty.
We'll get to phone calls. This is frightening. And as
(19:23):
I say, I have some information UH today, some further
information about mister Page, who has been invited on this
program on many occasions. He's more than welcome UH to
join us on any night that he would like. UH,
And I certainly would love to have him join us
on some night with Sarah and or Jeff Uh to
(19:46):
discuss this in graded detail. I think it involves students,
It involves parents of students. If you're someone now in
your thirties or forties and you're listening to this program
and you have a parent in a public scho in Massachusetts,
this has a direct impact, a potential direct impact on you.
We'll take a quick break right back on Nightside after.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
This Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I am joined by Jeff Robbins and Sarah coleb. Sarah's
the deputy director of the New England Anti Defamation League.
Jeff is the former director of the Anti Defamation League
here in New England. And we are talking about some
teaching materials, allegedly anti Semitic teaching materials we've described them
during the first hour, that have been presented to teachers
(20:38):
across Massachusetts by the Massachusetts Teachers Association. It was the
subject of a hearing at the State House last week
in front of a special State Commission on Anti Semitism
and the president of the Teachers' Union, gentleman by the
name of Max Page, who has been invited to come
on this show on at least three occasions that I
(20:59):
can think of, and declined the opportunity on every occasion,
and even today when we were looking for a spokesperson
from the association, the Mass Teachers Association, we were told
no one is available. We're now going to go to
phone calls and let me start it off with Mary
in Natick. Mary, you a first tonight on Nightside. Appreciate
(21:20):
you phone call. You're on with Jeff Robbins and Sarah
cole Garad Ahead.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
Mary, Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
You're welcome.
Speaker 7 (21:30):
So let me start by saying, so, my name is
doctor Mary bar Halpern. I'm calling from Natick. I am
a clinical psychologist and I'm also the director of trauma
training in Parents for Peace, which is an organization that
fed radicalization. And interestingly enough, I spoke in the MPa, Sorry,
in the Combat Antisemitism Commission that was right before this
(21:53):
one with next Page, and I think what we're missing
from this conversation is the outcome of what's happening. So
since October seventh, I've been seeing in my clinic a
lot of Jewish students and a lot of Israeli students
who are battling the depression and trauma and anxiety and
are afraid of going to school and are avoiding and
(22:16):
are isolating because of what's going on. And I really
do see it as something of failed education. As what
we think from the MPa, this is not just an
education issue. This is a social issue. This is what
leads to radicalization. And more than that, from what I'm
seeing through Parents for Peace is that this is word
(22:36):
toward what was being said back then and now also
by nail nazing and by white supremacists as well.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Okay, so I think I understand your perspective, and if
either Jeff or Sarah want a comment, they can, or
if you when they finish, if you have a question
for either of them, You're welcome to that question. Jeff, Sarah,
can you respond to what the caller had to say?
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Well, I've got a comment on that is that? And
this is something Dan that you have been really vigorously,
robustly talking about for quite some time, is that the
effort to scare the Bejesus out of Jewish kids and
Jewish faculty on campus, by organizations like Students for Justice
(23:28):
in Palestine or by similar groups. It is aimed at
driving people underground, kids underground. It is aimed at depressing them,
as the caller says, and making them ashamed. And the
goal is that nefarious. It seems to me. It is
to basically intimidate people into silence and break them emotionally.
(23:50):
I don't think that's an overstatement. So what the caller
is talking about as the effect of this stuff, I
think is the intent of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Well, we've seen this whole resurgence of antisemitism, overt anti
semitism in the wake of October seventh. All of us
know about the hostage placards which have been torn down
in public places and off the fences of residents who
put those placards up to keep alive the memory of
(24:22):
these hostages. The anti Semitism has always been there, but
in recent months after October seventh, it became much more
overt and much more out there than anything I had
ever seen during my lifetime. And I'd love to know
if Jeff Sarah agree with that. I'd also love to
know if the doctor agrees with that.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
I'm Sarah on one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
And I just want to highlight what doctor mar Halpern
said in what she sort of eloquently testified about before
the commission. We're talking here about the real world impact
of the hate that is already being experienced and the
way that juition is really student are not only going
through the trauma that these events have brought about, but
also being told that their experience doesn't matter. And I
(25:09):
just want to clarify something I said earlier. I probably
used the curriculum a little too loosely. Maxag in his
testimony over and over sort of emphasize that this wasn't curriculum.
These are resources for teachers to reach for. But I
think ultimately the impact of it, if teachers are using
these resources to inform their teaching in the classroom, it is.
(25:32):
But I think we need to be very laser focused
on the experience that doctor mar Halburn has been studying
of Jewish and Israeli students already. When you're talking about
this kind of institutionalization of some of that hate, like
it's not enough what we're experiencing already, but bringing a
perspective to teachers and providing a very one sided perspective,
(25:54):
and even a hateful perspective that is only going to
further inflame and compound the pain and the suffering and
the experience of Jewish students. And that's not to say
we don't also very much care about the experience of
Palestinian students, but to suggest that somehow, you know, providing
both sides of this narrative, if one was going to
(26:14):
teach it in K through twelve, requires that you have
this sort of hateful anti Israel and even anti Jewish
narrative is frankly offenses. It shouldn't be pain from both.
Speaker 7 (26:29):
And what's interesting, Yeah, So when I gave the testimony,
I was talking about traumatic invalidation, and traumatic validation is
a known term from trauma research when someone is denying
your thoughts or your emotion, basically saying your experience doesn't
matter or it actually didn't happen. And I gave a
whole testimony about how Jewish people since October seventh meet
(26:50):
every one of the criteria, and we talked about trauma.
This is not something I invented. Physiologically, Jewish students and
Israeli students cannot function at school today because they're constantly
worrying about teacher putting them down and keeps bulling them.
And right after my testimony, someone from Jewish Voice for
Peace or by the way, sitting right behind me. There's
(27:11):
two rolls behind me when I testimony, where people with
kafias and with Palestine flags. And she came to me
and said, oh, this is exactly what the Palestinian students
are feeling. And yes, I have no doubt there's some
Palestinian students are also feeling this way, but this is
exactly traumatic in validation. We are in a talking about
anti Semitism. This is combating anti simsm K to twelve
(27:35):
and she bringing up Palestinians on the other side. And
I think what we're seeing in society today that if
we talk about Jewish students, there's no pace for that.
We're being told that no, no, no, you need to
wait because other people are suffering and they're assuming we
don't care. We do care, but right now Jewish life matters,
and this focus needs to be on Jewish lives.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
We agree. I appreciate you taking the time to call.
I got a bunch of other calls I want to
try to get to as we continue along, yours was
invaluable testimony for us to hear tonight, and I thank
you so much for your professional expertise.
Speaker 7 (28:13):
Thank you for you, Tom, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
You're very welcome. Let me go next to Arno in Wisconsin.
Speaker 5 (28:21):
Arnot, I'm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
All right, I'm welcome Tonight's. I don't know if you've
ever called before, but if this is your first time, welcome.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
I haven't. I'm actually a colleague of Mary's. I work
at Parents for Peace as well. I'm a peer ex specialist,
and that means that I help young people get out
of hate groups and I coach their families to create
environments that are more conducive to their healing and recovery.
(28:51):
All of the work that I do is based in
my own experience as a former white nationalist. I was
a neo Nazi skinhead from nineteen eighty seven to nineteen
ninety four. I was very influential at that time. I
was the lead vocalist of a hate metal band that
was very popular. And the reason I'm calling is because
(29:13):
I'm incredibly concerned about this content that the MTA is
disseminating the teachers, because in many cases it is word
for word, the exact same anti semitic tropes we used
as white nationalists in the late eighties and early nineties,
and the same anti Semitic tropes that white nationalists today use.
(29:36):
We called the United States government the Zionist occupational government.
We accused Jews of genocide, we accused Jews of colonization.
Anytime we committed acts of violence against Jews or anybody else,
we said, when land is occupied, violence is justified. So
I think it's very important that people know that this
(29:58):
content that the MTA is seminating the teachers, and like
you said, whether it's called curriculum or not, it's eventually
going to filter down to students, is the exact same hatred,
word for word that white nationalistness spouse. And this is
further proved by David Duke endorsing Jill Stein for president
last year. Is to have one of the most notorious
(30:20):
Kukux Plan members in the United States history who ditch
Donald Trump because he doesn't hate Israel enough. So anti
Semitism is the connective tissue of all violent extremism, and
everyone needs to know that it's not just Jews who
suffer when anti Semitism takes hold in the society. When
(30:41):
anti Semitism is front and center as it is today,
anti black racism will be aggravated and exacerbated, Anti LGBT
violence will be exaggerated and exacerbated, and honestly, for your
plain old white person who doesn't isn't on board with
the anti semitism, it'll be a target as well. So
(31:01):
this is something that everyone needs to be very concerned about,
and I hope that the Massachusetts legislature is able to
take some tangible action to stop the MTA from this
anti Semitic crusade that they're on.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Well, the MTA is a very powerful group, one hundred
and seventeen thousand members here in Massachusetts are no They
were able to successfully eradicate the requirement of what we
call the MCAST graduation requirement. You had to pass a
relatively easy test in the tenth grade, and they're looking
to earn the right to strike. Here in Massachusetts, police,
(31:39):
fire and public public servants like teachers are not allowed
to strike. First of all, thank you for calling. I'd
love to have you leave your number with my producer
and maybe I could have you on the show as
a guest at some point. Congratulations for getting out from
getting out from that suit or that you found yourself
(32:01):
in for so many years of white nationalism. And if
you'd leave your number in name with my producer Rob,
I would appreciate it immensely.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
I'm happy to do that, Dan, and I always say,
nobody is happier about it than I am. And that's
why we do this work, because it's a miserable place
to be mired and hatred for any group of people,
and I want to demonstrate there's a better way for
people to live their lives.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
As a TV reporter around that time, back in the
early nineties, I believe there was an active group of
skinheads in Salem, Massachusetts, what we call the Wich City
up here, and my camera man at the time, a
guy named Dan Marauda, and I went up and confronted
them on their own territory. And once once they were confronted,
(32:48):
they kind of backed down. You know, we were we
were lucky, but I just felt, hey, let's let's out
of you know when sunlight's the greatest disinfectant. Oh no,
stay there, give your information to Rob and we'll continue
our conversation with my guests. Right after this quick break.
Thank you, Anna, congratulations Jeff, are you going to say
something well, I.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Wasn't accept to congratulate him, and to note that, you know,
some of these folks on campuses and the MTA, I
hope you know. We'll look in the mirror and listen
to what this caller, remarkable caller said, most remarkable, remarkable stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
We'll take a break. We'll be right back on Night's
Side with my guest Jeff Robins and Sarah Colebke. Sarah's
the death current deputy director of the New England Anti
Defamation League for many years, Jeff was the director of
the Anti Defamation League here in New England. Back on
night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
nights Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Let's get back to phone calls here. We have a
few minutes left in this hour and we'll get to
phone calls right away. We're talking about anti Semitism and
rearing its ugly head within the Massachusetts Teachers Union, Allegedly.
Michelle is in Boston. Michelle next on Nightside with Jeff
Robbins and Sarah Colet Go right ahead.
Speaker 8 (34:11):
Michelle, Hi, I'm part of the Massachusetts Educators Against Anti Semitism,
and our group has been trying to deal with contacting
the MTA in numerous ways by attending their board meetings,
making public comments, writing emails to them, and Max's attitude
has sort of been the same as you saw in
(34:32):
the hearing. They ignored us. We were subjected to gas
lighting at this. Two days prior to the hearing, the
board had an opportunity to take down the website. One
of their board members put up a resolution to remove
the resources, and that was after one of the four
(34:55):
Jewish teachers who came to speak up showed images images
with the Jewish star, one was the one with a snake,
one was the one with said f off Zionis. So
they saw three of those images and the board voted
to keep those images plus all of the other controversial
(35:16):
resources on their website. So we're kind of surprised that
Max didn't discuss that also at the hearing and he
couldn't admit that those resources are anti Semitic.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Wow, are you a teacher yourself, Michelle, Yes, I'm a teacher,
and uh is when is is? This is this guy
the elected leader of the union.
Speaker 8 (35:45):
That unfortunately at this time, he's really not representing educators
in their best light. Educators right now should be focused
on teaching our students and loving all of our students,
treating everybody equally and giving respect to all students regardless
of their religious or national origin. And right now what
(36:08):
the MTA is promoting is discrimination against Jewish students. We
have been advocating for these resources to be taken down.
The MTA has no expertise in the Middle East, so
why would they put up any kind of curriculum resources
when they have never done any kind of venture ever.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Michelle, thank you so much for calling. I have another
call I'd like to get to, but jeff O'sarah. Quick
comment from Michelle in her courage of not only calling
but standing up for what is right.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Wait you can hear it in her voice, and congratulations
to her and to her colleagues. This is a tough
fight with an adversary. Unfortunately, they shouldn't be an adversary
with a lot of resources. And just imagine putting our
kids in the hands of people as arrogant as this fellow.
Age and some of his colleagues are absolutely nice.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
I'm so impressed with these Jewish teachers, and I would
just say, like this is some of us are doing
this advocacy work for our job, but these teachers are
working so hard to do their regular job and then
unfortunately this additional job of fighting for their own.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Rights and the rights of Jewish students has been thrust
upon them, and it is not fair and it should
not be that way.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Michelle, thank you so much for your courage. Please continue
to listen to Night's side. We cover this topic on
a fairly regular basis, and if there's anything we can
do to help you in your efforts, let me know.
Speaker 8 (37:36):
Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You're very welcome. Let me try to get one more
caller in here. Tom and Rochester. Tom, you're late and
we're tight on time.
Speaker 9 (37:46):
Go right ahead, I'll I'll try to be quick. Man.
My observation was locally here, my election was for the
teachers for the Educational Board of Education. I'm why do
I say it?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
So?
Speaker 9 (38:04):
The local election for the for the for that was
three times as much spent on the state representative race.
So in other words, it's really important who people elect
to the school board, and they spent a lot of
money doing it. And when I'm saying now, well, very
interesting as an observer. You know who Milton Khan was
(38:29):
your guest with me, Just Milton Khan, the A d L.
He was my father's mentor. My father we're Gentiles, and
my father fought World War two and Milton Khan was
his mentor. And Milton Khan was very big in the
(38:51):
A d L. He's gotta chaired brandice. I grew up
a prose im and what's going on right now is crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Absolutely, Tom, thank you very much for that, for that comment,
I really do appreciate it. Thank you, sir, appreciate it.
To Jeff and to Sarah, thank you for your time tonight.
I'm going to try to keep this conversation going into
the next hour. I don't know how much response we
will get to it, but I want to continue it.
(39:22):
Callers on the line, stay there. We'll pick it up
on the other side of the ten o'clock news. But
to Jeff Robins and Sarah kob please keep up your fight.
We have your back, I hope you know.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Thank you so much, damn, thank you so very much.
Once again, you're both very welcome.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
For those of you in the line, stay there. I'd
like to talk about this on the other side because
I think it's so important coming back right after the
ten on night side
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZY Constance video.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Last week, there was a very interesting hearing at the
state House. There's a special Commission on combating Anti Semitism
at the Massachusetts State House, and on the hot seat
was a gentleman by the name of Max Page. He's
the president of the Massachusetts Teachers Association, the largest teachers
union in New England, represents one hundred and seventeen thousand
(00:30):
members with us tonight is a friend of this program,
Jeff Robbins, former the director of the Anti Defamation League
here in New England. And this hearing Jeff at the
State House last week drew some very interesting questions and
(00:55):
some inadequate answers from Max Page. Could you set it
up a little bit. There's an article that I've read.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
In a.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Publication called The Free Press. I'm not all that familiar with,
but the article says, welcome to Homassachusetts. Rampant and ubiquitous
anti semitism is making its way into the largest teachers
union in New England. Lawmakers say this is frightening.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Welcome Jeff, Thank you, Dana, thank you for having me. Well,
there are sort of two pieces to it. Shortly after
the mass slaughter that occurred on October seventh. The Massachusetts
Teachers Association, which promptly denounced not the slaughter but the
Israeli quote unquote genocide, trying to prevent another slaughter, commissioned
(01:49):
a fellow who may be the last person in Massachusetts
who could have been commissioned to put together objectively so
called educational resources for teachers to use in their schools
with kids teaching them about the conflict. And to say
that the materials were biased doesn't begin to state it.
(02:11):
The fellow that they asked to commission this Villa name
Ricardo Rosa, had praised terrorists, had supported a professor who
called Zionist swine and the like. So, putting aside how
you feel about the conflict, the notion this guy was
in a position to develop educational materials that presented the
conflict in anything close to a fair fashion was ludicrous
(02:35):
and intellectually insulting, the more so from a teacher and
from a union. What happened this past week, this has
been a controversy, as you know, over the last year,
was that the legislative commission looking into anti Semitism went
beyond the question of whether or not this stuff was
just ridiculously biased and an affront. But whether or not
(02:57):
the materials that were disseminated under the leadership of this
fellow constituted blatant anti Semitism, and of course they surely did.
They featured, for example, the Star of David comprised of
dollar bills. They had a poster that was distributed telling
saying f off Zionists, describing Zionists as snakes and other stuff.
(03:23):
This is the kind of stuff which had it been
people of color or anybody else, would have never gotten
out of the starting gate. And so this examination is
the testimony. The hearing at the state House was a
questioning of the head of the Teachers Association as to
how this possibly could be justified. And among the gems
(03:44):
that came out of this testimony was the question by
one of the members of the legislative, Simon Cataldo, asking
him about the Star of David made of dollar bills. Quote,
you'd agree this is anti semitic image recorrect, And here's
what the president of the Massachusetts Teacher Association, the head
(04:05):
of a teachers union replied. He replied, I'm not going
to evaluate that. So you've got two problems. One is
absurd bias in our schools, and the second is blatant
and a Semitism.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, we attempted to have the president, we invited once
again the president of the teachers Union, Max Page, to
join the conversation tonight, and also we certainly would have
welcomed the vice president, a woman named Deb McCarthy. They
sent us a pully brief statement, but I'd like to
(04:39):
reach us a bit of it. In meeting with the
Special Commission on Combating Anti Semitism in Massachusetts, the Massachusetts
Teachers Union Association, excuse me, had hoped for honest dialogue
and an exchange of ideas. Instead, the president of the
union and one of its members were subjected to two
hours of political grants that did not further the cause
(05:02):
of combating anti Semitism. So the question that was asked
is being characterized as grandstanding, and you're correct. I've seen
this picture, if you will, of dollar bills made into
a star of David, which of course is just an
(05:24):
old blood libel that you know, money is what drives
Jewish decisions, and it's deplorable that his response to that
was was simply he was not going to respond to it,
He's not going to dignify that question with an answer.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Yeah, you know, on top of everything else. What an
insult that the head of the Massachusetts that the Teacher
Association itself would issue a statement like that, unable to
answer a simple question about whether or not that was
anti Semitic imagery teacher. The head of the Teachers Association says,
I'm not going to evaluate that, and then tries to
(06:07):
basically respond to the fact that it was such a
pathetic answer by accusing the person who asked him the
question of grand standing or of not engaging in an
honest dialogue. It's just breathtaking.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So what happened today was my producer Marita sent left,
called and send an email to the mass Teachers Association
basically explaining to them that she was reaching out from
WZ News Radio. Just left you a voicemail as well.
We're looking to talk about this topic tonight at nine
(06:43):
and we're wondering if this is spokes for us from
the MTA. We'll join Dan this evening to discuss even
if it's for a segment or two. It's all done remotely,
so via telephone, no needs to travel anywhere in person.
We can be flexible, so please let us know whether
it's just to know if we can coordinate something for
this evening. And the response came back fairly quickly from
(07:05):
someone named Scott McClellan, who I guess is their PR person.
I can't set anything up, sorry, I hope Dan and
you realize that the resources are not items on the
front of our website, and that these are items available
to MTA members that the Board of Directors asked to
be provided to members in hopes of understanding the conflict
(07:25):
and being able to teach about it.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
That doesn't even rise to the level. It doesn't rise
to the level of words salad. It's just garbage.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah. So Marita response, She says, oh, hey, Scott, okay,
we don't entirely understand that in terms of the availability
of the items to members compared to the public, et cetera.
That's why we're hoping to have you guys who want
to explain it further so we can understand that better.
Is there another statement you can provide us on the
(07:54):
latest And there was that statement that I read and
that's it. Now invited mister Page on several occasions and
in the statement he says, as noted in opening remarks,
by delivering this is the statement from the Teachers Association
by MTA President Max Page. Anti Semitism is inextricably linked
(08:17):
to so many other forms of prejudice and hate that
we need a wide ranging, vocal and unequivocal reput repudiation
of hate in all its forms. And yet he wasn't
able to address what dollar bills you know, made into
a star of David might necessarily represent in these teaching materials.
(08:39):
There's a disconnect here that I don't understand.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Jeff Well, you're being charitable when you refer to it
as a disconnect. It's just patent dishonesty. I mean, had
there been an honest response to the question by your producer,
will you agree to come in and have an honest
dialogue about these issues, then the answer would have been yeah.
When is not only fly but circumnavigate the globe? Because
(09:04):
there is no capacity to answer these questions at all,
a fact which was amply demonstrated in the state House,
and that they basically choose to respond by blaming those
who asked them the questions that they couldn't answer, as
though it's the fault of the people who ask the
questions rather than their fault. I mean that speaks volumes.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Jeff, we're going to take a quick break. We're going
to be joined by Sarah cob in just a moment.
Sarah's the deputy director, as you well know, of the
New England Anti Defamation League. And I also want to
invite our callers to join this conversation because I think
it's terribly important when materials are being given to teachers
for their I guess consideration, but those materials are not
(09:49):
being circulated widely so parents can see. As I understand
that I could be wrong here, maybe the Teachers' Union
has sent these materials to the parents of students. Well,
but I don't think so. I just don't think so.
And we'll ask Sarah about that. Jeff, I want you
to stay with us. We'll incorporate Sarah into this conversation.
And if there's anyone out there for the Massachusetts Teachers
(10:11):
Union who wants to join the conversation, be it mister
Page or missus McCarthy or any other representative, you are
more than welcome, and you're welcome any night to come
on and talk with with Jeff or with Sarah or
with other representatives of you know, long standing organizations here
(10:33):
in New England that have fought against anti Semitism wherever
it raises its ugly head. We'll be back on Nightside.
Our phone number is six one seven two five four
ten thirty. Also there's one at six one seven nine
three one ten thirty. B right back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I'm joined by Jeff Robbins, who is a syndicated columnist.
He's also a a learned, well well known attorney, specializes
in a number of different areas, but specifically also first Amendment.
We've talked with Jeff, Jeff as the former director of
(11:17):
the Anti Defamation League here in New England, and we're
now going to be joined by Sarah Colb, deputy director
of the New England Anti Defamation League. Sarah, welcome Tonight'sie.
Thanks for joining us. What is your reaction? I assume
it probably falls along the line of Jeff. With this
(11:39):
information that the Mass Teachers Association apparently has provided some
quote unquote teaching materials to their membership, which has a
pretty distinct and disgusting anti Semitic flavor.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Dan, thanks so much for having me and for having
this really critical conversation. Before I answer that, I just
think it's really important to take a step back and
look at what's happening in context. So, after October seventh,
the largest laughter of Jews since the Holocaust, Jews have
experienced an absolute tidal wave of anti Semitic hate that's
(12:17):
happening across the country, and that's certainly happening here in
this Commonwealth. It was already on the rise, but since
ten to seven it has gotten so much worse. Almost
immediately following the atrocities of ten to seven, the MTA
decided to blast Israel. This is in December of twenty
twenty three, blast Israel, accusing it of genocide against the Palestinians,
(12:39):
making no mention of the hostages or any of the
atrocities committed by Hamas, and essentially blaming Israel for.
Speaker 6 (12:45):
All the violence that has ensued.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
At the same time, they passed a resolution saying that
they were going to create curriculum on Israel Palestine. Now,
let's be clear, creating curriculum is not something that this Union,
as I understand it, had before, but for the first
time ever, they're going to create curriculum on an extraordinarily
complex global conflict. This is the same Union. Remind you know,
(13:12):
it's helpful to remember that just recently fought and won
a battle against standardized test standardized testing on you know,
regular topics like English and maths skills. But they instead
want to engage in providing curriculum on this highly complicated
global conflict that requires quite a bit of nuance and understanding.
(13:34):
So the resources were published a few months.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
Ago, and it's pretty obvious that.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
There is one single perspective that's being pushed.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Although there's a few unobjectionable resources sprinkled in, the overwhelming
majority are extremely empty Israel. And of course there are
many that are outright anti Semitic, like the ones that
you've been discussing so far and that we're highlighted by
the Commission. If the MTA were truly interested in providing
resources for teachers to promote their learning, as Max Page suggested,
(14:04):
how could it possibly justify giving such a one sided view,
and worse, including materials that engage in these hateful anti
Semitic tropes. Now I want to go back to what
I said earlier, it's not doing this in a vacuum.
It is doing this at a time when Jewish and
Israeli students are suffering immeasurably. The incidents of hate that
(14:27):
we are seeing in our K through twelve schools right
now have skyrocketed.
Speaker 6 (14:30):
I'll just give you.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
One tiny anecdote. Our twenty twenty four numbers are not
out yet, but we had one single week where at ADL,
New England, we got reports of five separate incidents of
swastika vandalism in a single week. So this is not normal,
but it is being normalized. And the MTA's actions here,
I think risk pouring gasoline on a raging fire. And
(14:54):
I have to say, while we're on the topic of gasoline,
that statement that you read by page in response to
the hearing feels like more gaslighting to me, which is
becoming all too common whenever the Jewish community points out
the clear anti Semitic hatre that's happening. We all know
what we found those images. But Paige refused to answer
the question and instead wants to shift our focus so
(15:17):
that we're talking about the motives of those asking the questions,
And he's doing that because he could not defend what
is obviously indefensible.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, I'm looking at some of these materials that apparently
were circulated to teachers. This is an article out of
the Free Press which is entitled Welcome to Hamassachusetts. So
there's the one that Jeff was referred to, which was
the dollar bill. Two dollar bills which are basically formed
(15:49):
in triangles, which are formed to make a star of David,
which is nothing more than in old trope and blood libels.
There's one this is from THEMS Teacher Association Resources on
Israel and Occupied Palestine Visuals and Art, a hundred posters
(16:12):
made by artists from across the world in solidarity with
Palestine from apartheid Art, and it's a picture of looks
like a young woman with a mask and an automatic weapon.
What was taken by force can only be restored by force.
Another poster Day of Rage, Decolonize this place, solidarity contingent.
(16:42):
And then there's there's one a picture of President Biden,
who's labeled a serial killer. More than twenty thousand Palestinian
death since October seventh, Lip service is no solution to genocide.
And then a children's book mentioned in The material called
Handle Us Return, published last year by the Palestinian Feminist Collective,
(17:06):
includes lines like a group of bullies called Zionists wanted land,
so they stole it by force and hurt many people.
The book ends with a call to action and quoting
from the article in The Free Press, urging readers to
quote help handle a Free Palestine, asking them to fill
in prompts such as I will raise funds for the
children of Palestine, buy I will chant this at a
(17:26):
Palestine protest. I mean, this is nothing more than brainwashing.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
This is an education right And Dan, you raised a
really important point earlier about you know where these materials
sent to parents. No, they were not. These were provided
on the member's only website of the MTA. Now quarry
why it shouldn't be made public when the MTA is
now engaging, apparently in the creation curriculum on such a
(17:52):
sensitive topic that we should we shouldn't allow people to
know what their tax dollars are paying for and what
their students are learning in school. That seems really questionable
to me.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It's it's it's it's more than questionable. And again, just
the the demeanor of Max Page, this is a very
active UH political union. They've they've fought long and hard
and successfully to eliminate the uh mcast graduation requirement. They've also,
i think, stated publicly that they want to allow teachers
(18:27):
UH unions to strike. In Massachusetts, in the city of
Newton a year ago, teachers Union was out on strike
for nearly three weeks, pretty much the entire month of
January last winter.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
UH.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
And now they are they are basically, in my opinion,
just my opinion, politicizing what is going on in the
Middle East. For for students here, this is the sort
of thing that would be discussed at a college or
a graduate student level. You would not be indoctrinating students
with this at either junior high, high school or elementary
(19:03):
school level. I'd like to take a break, Jeff and Sarah,
because at the bottom of the hour, I want to
invite callers to join the conversation six one seven two
ten thirty or six one seven nine three one ten thirty.
We'll get to phone calls. This is frightening. And as
(19:23):
I say, I have some information UH today, some further
information about mister Page, who has been invited on this
program on many occasions. He's more than welcome UH to
join us on any night that he would like. UH,
And I certainly would love to have him join us
on some night with Sarah and or Jeff Uh to
(19:46):
discuss this in graded detail. I think it involves students,
It involves parents of students. If you're someone now in
your thirties or forties and you're listening to this program
and you have a parent in a public scho in Massachusetts,
this has a direct impact, a potential direct impact on you.
We'll take a quick break right back on Nightside after.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
This Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I am joined by Jeff Robbins and Sarah coleb. Sarah's
the deputy director of the New England Anti Defamation League.
Jeff is the former director of the Anti Defamation League
here in New England. And we are talking about some
teaching materials, allegedly anti Semitic teaching materials we've described them
during the first hour, that have been presented to teachers
(20:38):
across Massachusetts by the Massachusetts Teachers Association. It was the
subject of a hearing at the State House last week
in front of a special State Commission on Anti Semitism
and the president of the Teachers' Union, gentleman by the
name of Max Page, who has been invited to come
on this show on at least three occasions that I
(20:59):
can think of, and declined the opportunity on every occasion,
and even today when we were looking for a spokesperson
from the association, the Mass Teachers Association, we were told
no one is available. We're now going to go to
phone calls and let me start it off with Mary
in Natick. Mary, you a first tonight on Nightside. Appreciate
(21:20):
you phone call. You're on with Jeff Robbins and Sarah
cole Garad Ahead.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
Mary, Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
You're welcome.
Speaker 7 (21:30):
So let me start by saying, so, my name is
doctor Mary bar Halpern. I'm calling from Natick. I am
a clinical psychologist and I'm also the director of trauma
training in Parents for Peace, which is an organization that
fed radicalization. And interestingly enough, I spoke in the MPa, Sorry,
in the Combat Antisemitism Commission that was right before this
(21:53):
one with next Page, and I think what we're missing
from this conversation is the outcome of what's happening. So
since October seventh, I've been seeing in my clinic a
lot of Jewish students and a lot of Israeli students
who are battling the depression and trauma and anxiety and
are afraid of going to school and are avoiding and
(22:16):
are isolating because of what's going on. And I really
do see it as something of failed education. As what
we think from the MPa, this is not just an
education issue. This is a social issue. This is what
leads to radicalization. And more than that, from what I'm
seeing through Parents for Peace is that this is word
(22:36):
toward what was being said back then and now also
by nail nazing and by white supremacists as well.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Okay, so I think I understand your perspective, and if
either Jeff or Sarah want a comment, they can, or
if you when they finish, if you have a question
for either of them, You're welcome to that question. Jeff, Sarah,
can you respond to what the caller had to say?
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Well, I've got a comment on that is that? And
this is something Dan that you have been really vigorously,
robustly talking about for quite some time, is that the
effort to scare the Bejesus out of Jewish kids and
Jewish faculty on campus, by organizations like Students for Justice
(23:28):
in Palestine or by similar groups. It is aimed at
driving people underground, kids underground. It is aimed at depressing them,
as the caller says, and making them ashamed. And the
goal is that nefarious. It seems to me. It is
to basically intimidate people into silence and break them emotionally.
(23:50):
I don't think that's an overstatement. So what the caller
is talking about as the effect of this stuff, I
think is the intent of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Well, we've seen this whole resurgence of antisemitism, overt anti
semitism in the wake of October seventh. All of us
know about the hostage placards which have been torn down
in public places and off the fences of residents who
put those placards up to keep alive the memory of
(24:22):
these hostages. The anti Semitism has always been there, but
in recent months after October seventh, it became much more
overt and much more out there than anything I had
ever seen during my lifetime. And I'd love to know
if Jeff Sarah agree with that. I'd also love to
know if the doctor agrees with that.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
I'm Sarah on one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
And I just want to highlight what doctor mar Halpern
said in what she sort of eloquently testified about before
the commission. We're talking here about the real world impact
of the hate that is already being experienced and the
way that juition is really student are not only going
through the trauma that these events have brought about, but
also being told that their experience doesn't matter. And I
(25:09):
just want to clarify something I said earlier. I probably
used the curriculum a little too loosely. Maxag in his
testimony over and over sort of emphasize that this wasn't curriculum.
These are resources for teachers to reach for. But I
think ultimately the impact of it, if teachers are using
these resources to inform their teaching in the classroom, it is.
(25:32):
But I think we need to be very laser focused
on the experience that doctor mar Halburn has been studying
of Jewish and Israeli students already. When you're talking about
this kind of institutionalization of some of that hate, like
it's not enough what we're experiencing already, but bringing a
perspective to teachers and providing a very one sided perspective,
(25:54):
and even a hateful perspective that is only going to
further inflame and compound the pain and the suffering and
the experience of Jewish students. And that's not to say
we don't also very much care about the experience of
Palestinian students, but to suggest that somehow, you know, providing
both sides of this narrative, if one was going to
(26:14):
teach it in K through twelve, requires that you have
this sort of hateful anti Israel and even anti Jewish
narrative is frankly offenses. It shouldn't be pain from both.
Speaker 7 (26:29):
And what's interesting, Yeah, So when I gave the testimony,
I was talking about traumatic invalidation, and traumatic validation is
a known term from trauma research when someone is denying
your thoughts or your emotion, basically saying your experience doesn't
matter or it actually didn't happen. And I gave a
whole testimony about how Jewish people since October seventh meet
(26:50):
every one of the criteria, and we talked about trauma.
This is not something I invented. Physiologically, Jewish students and
Israeli students cannot function at school today because they're constantly
worrying about teacher putting them down and keeps bulling them.
And right after my testimony, someone from Jewish Voice for
Peace or by the way, sitting right behind me. There's
(27:11):
two rolls behind me when I testimony, where people with
kafias and with Palestine flags. And she came to me
and said, oh, this is exactly what the Palestinian students
are feeling. And yes, I have no doubt there's some
Palestinian students are also feeling this way, but this is
exactly traumatic in validation. We are in a talking about
anti Semitism. This is combating anti simsm K to twelve
(27:35):
and she bringing up Palestinians on the other side. And
I think what we're seeing in society today that if
we talk about Jewish students, there's no pace for that.
We're being told that no, no, no, you need to
wait because other people are suffering and they're assuming we
don't care. We do care, but right now Jewish life matters,
and this focus needs to be on Jewish lives.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
We agree. I appreciate you taking the time to call.
I got a bunch of other calls I want to
try to get to as we continue along, yours was
invaluable testimony for us to hear tonight, and I thank
you so much for your professional expertise.
Speaker 7 (28:13):
Thank you for you, Tom, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
You're very welcome. Let me go next to Arno in Wisconsin.
Speaker 5 (28:21):
Arnot, I'm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
All right, I'm welcome Tonight's. I don't know if you've
ever called before, but if this is your first time, welcome.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
I haven't. I'm actually a colleague of Mary's. I work
at Parents for Peace as well. I'm a peer ex specialist,
and that means that I help young people get out
of hate groups and I coach their families to create
environments that are more conducive to their healing and recovery.
(28:51):
All of the work that I do is based in
my own experience as a former white nationalist. I was
a neo Nazi skinhead from nineteen eighty seven to nineteen
ninety four. I was very influential at that time. I
was the lead vocalist of a hate metal band that
was very popular. And the reason I'm calling is because
(29:13):
I'm incredibly concerned about this content that the MTA is
disseminating the teachers, because in many cases it is word
for word, the exact same anti semitic tropes we used
as white nationalists in the late eighties and early nineties,
and the same anti Semitic tropes that white nationalists today use.
(29:36):
We called the United States government the Zionist occupational government.
We accused Jews of genocide, we accused Jews of colonization.
Anytime we committed acts of violence against Jews or anybody else,
we said, when land is occupied, violence is justified. So
I think it's very important that people know that this
(29:58):
content that the MTA is seminating the teachers, and like
you said, whether it's called curriculum or not, it's eventually
going to filter down to students, is the exact same hatred,
word for word that white nationalistness spouse. And this is
further proved by David Duke endorsing Jill Stein for president
last year. Is to have one of the most notorious
(30:20):
Kukux Plan members in the United States history who ditch
Donald Trump because he doesn't hate Israel enough. So anti
Semitism is the connective tissue of all violent extremism, and
everyone needs to know that it's not just Jews who
suffer when anti Semitism takes hold in the society. When
(30:41):
anti Semitism is front and center as it is today,
anti black racism will be aggravated and exacerbated, Anti LGBT
violence will be exaggerated and exacerbated, and honestly, for your
plain old white person who doesn't isn't on board with
the anti semitism, it'll be a target as well. So
(31:01):
this is something that everyone needs to be very concerned about,
and I hope that the Massachusetts legislature is able to
take some tangible action to stop the MTA from this
anti Semitic crusade that they're on.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Well, the MTA is a very powerful group, one hundred
and seventeen thousand members here in Massachusetts are no They
were able to successfully eradicate the requirement of what we
call the MCAST graduation requirement. You had to pass a
relatively easy test in the tenth grade, and they're looking
to earn the right to strike. Here in Massachusetts, police,
(31:39):
fire and public public servants like teachers are not allowed
to strike. First of all, thank you for calling. I'd
love to have you leave your number with my producer
and maybe I could have you on the show as
a guest at some point. Congratulations for getting out from
getting out from that suit or that you found yourself
(32:01):
in for so many years of white nationalism. And if
you'd leave your number in name with my producer Rob,
I would appreciate it immensely.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
I'm happy to do that, Dan, and I always say,
nobody is happier about it than I am. And that's
why we do this work, because it's a miserable place
to be mired and hatred for any group of people,
and I want to demonstrate there's a better way for
people to live their lives.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
As a TV reporter around that time, back in the
early nineties, I believe there was an active group of
skinheads in Salem, Massachusetts, what we call the Wich City
up here, and my camera man at the time, a
guy named Dan Marauda, and I went up and confronted
them on their own territory. And once once they were confronted,
(32:48):
they kind of backed down. You know, we were we
were lucky, but I just felt, hey, let's let's out
of you know when sunlight's the greatest disinfectant. Oh no,
stay there, give your information to Rob and we'll continue
our conversation with my guests. Right after this quick break.
Thank you, Anna, congratulations Jeff, are you going to say
something well, I.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Wasn't accept to congratulate him, and to note that, you know,
some of these folks on campuses and the MTA, I
hope you know. We'll look in the mirror and listen
to what this caller, remarkable caller said, most remarkable, remarkable stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
We'll take a break. We'll be right back on Night's
Side with my guest Jeff Robins and Sarah Colebke. Sarah's
the death current deputy director of the New England Anti
Defamation League for many years, Jeff was the director of
the Anti Defamation League here in New England. Back on
night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
nights Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Let's get back to phone calls here. We have a
few minutes left in this hour and we'll get to
phone calls right away. We're talking about anti Semitism and
rearing its ugly head within the Massachusetts Teachers Union, Allegedly.
Michelle is in Boston. Michelle next on Nightside with Jeff
Robbins and Sarah Colet Go right ahead.
Speaker 8 (34:11):
Michelle, Hi, I'm part of the Massachusetts Educators Against Anti Semitism,
and our group has been trying to deal with contacting
the MTA in numerous ways by attending their board meetings,
making public comments, writing emails to them, and Max's attitude
has sort of been the same as you saw in
(34:32):
the hearing. They ignored us. We were subjected to gas
lighting at this. Two days prior to the hearing, the
board had an opportunity to take down the website. One
of their board members put up a resolution to remove
the resources, and that was after one of the four
(34:55):
Jewish teachers who came to speak up showed images images
with the Jewish star, one was the one with a snake,
one was the one with said f off Zionis. So
they saw three of those images and the board voted
to keep those images plus all of the other controversial
(35:16):
resources on their website. So we're kind of surprised that
Max didn't discuss that also at the hearing and he
couldn't admit that those resources are anti Semitic.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Wow, are you a teacher yourself, Michelle, Yes, I'm a teacher,
and uh is when is is? This is this guy
the elected leader of the union.
Speaker 8 (35:45):
That unfortunately at this time, he's really not representing educators
in their best light. Educators right now should be focused
on teaching our students and loving all of our students,
treating everybody equally and giving respect to all students regardless
of their religious or national origin. And right now what
(36:08):
the MTA is promoting is discrimination against Jewish students. We
have been advocating for these resources to be taken down.
The MTA has no expertise in the Middle East, so
why would they put up any kind of curriculum resources
when they have never done any kind of venture ever.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Michelle, thank you so much for calling. I have another
call I'd like to get to, but jeff O'sarah. Quick
comment from Michelle in her courage of not only calling
but standing up for what is right.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Wait you can hear it in her voice, and congratulations
to her and to her colleagues. This is a tough
fight with an adversary. Unfortunately, they shouldn't be an adversary
with a lot of resources. And just imagine putting our
kids in the hands of people as arrogant as this fellow.
Age and some of his colleagues are absolutely nice.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
I'm so impressed with these Jewish teachers, and I would
just say, like this is some of us are doing
this advocacy work for our job, but these teachers are
working so hard to do their regular job and then
unfortunately this additional job of fighting for their own.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Rights and the rights of Jewish students has been thrust
upon them, and it is not fair and it should
not be that way.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Michelle, thank you so much for your courage. Please continue
to listen to Night's side. We cover this topic on
a fairly regular basis, and if there's anything we can
do to help you in your efforts, let me know.
Speaker 8 (37:36):
Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You're very welcome. Let me try to get one more
caller in here. Tom and Rochester. Tom, you're late and
we're tight on time.
Speaker 9 (37:46):
Go right ahead, I'll I'll try to be quick. Man.
My observation was locally here, my election was for the
teachers for the Educational Board of Education. I'm why do
I say it?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
So?
Speaker 9 (38:04):
The local election for the for the for that was
three times as much spent on the state representative race.
So in other words, it's really important who people elect
to the school board, and they spent a lot of
money doing it. And when I'm saying now, well, very
interesting as an observer. You know who Milton Khan was
(38:29):
your guest with me, Just Milton Khan, the A d L.
He was my father's mentor. My father we're Gentiles, and
my father fought World War two and Milton Khan was
his mentor. And Milton Khan was very big in the
(38:51):
A d L. He's gotta chaired brandice. I grew up
a prose im and what's going on right now is crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Absolutely, Tom, thank you very much for that, for that comment,
I really do appreciate it. Thank you, sir, appreciate it.
To Jeff and to Sarah, thank you for your time tonight.
I'm going to try to keep this conversation going into
the next hour. I don't know how much response we
will get to it, but I want to continue it.
(39:22):
Callers on the line, stay there. We'll pick it up
on the other side of the ten o'clock news. But
to Jeff Robins and Sarah kob please keep up your fight.
We have your back, I hope you know.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Thank you so much, damn, thank you so very much.
Once again, you're both very welcome.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
For those of you in the line, stay there. I'd
like to talk about this on the other side because
I think it's so important coming back right after the
ten on night side
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