October 18, 2024 • 41 mins
Have you ever wondered why you have dreams in black and white? Or maybe you consistently have dreams about falling…why is that? Kelly Bulkeley, Ph. D is a psychologist and dream researcher who is the director of the Sleep and Dream Database. Kelly joined us to discuss not only the science behind your dreams but also help you interpret your dreams!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's nice side with Ray WBS radiomor right.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome back everybody. It is nine oh six. I think
it was pretty quick. Uh run down stairs, get a
lit glass of water, and you run back up. Okay,
as simple as that. We are going to give you
an opportunity to talk with a researcher, a dream researcher.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
His name is Kelly Bulkeley. Hopefully doctor Bulkeley. I'm getting
that correct tonight. How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I'm doing good. Yes, that was perfect, Thank you, Yeah,
be with you.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Doctor Bulkeley was with us a little over a week ago.
He is a psychologist and a dream researcher, and this
is an opportunity for us to focus not only upon
his general field work in this field, but all So
give you an opportunity if you'd like to call in
(01:02):
my producer today during we do a little promotional piece
every day at four thirty for our program, and my producer,
Marita aka Lightning was was mentioning that you were going
to be our guest tonight, and she said that she
had a recurring dream of zombies, that she was a
(01:23):
zombie and very disquieted because she's not a fan of
zombie movies. So I guess everybody has those dreams. So
let's let's first of all explain to us generally, and
we'll get to phone calls. I promise there's a few
folks of the line already. You guys will be all set.
But how did you get into dream research? You're a psychologist,
(01:47):
I understand that. How was it and what drew you
to the to the to the whole area of dream research.
As I found out the other night when we talked,
everybody dreams in some full we would talking the other night.
If you recall between that there was some people dreaming
in black and white, others dream in color, and you
can't remember your dreams unless you're writing down. We'll go
(02:08):
over some of that again. But how did you first
get involved in this? What drew you to this field?
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, well, like many people, my own dreams sort of
steered me away from the path of normality and got
me very interested in this topic that did lots of
people look at, but not everybody sort of tries to
bring together all the different strands of research. So I'm
actually a psychologist of religion. My graduate school training was
(02:36):
in religious studies, the psychology of religion in part because
I was interested in dreams and I went to college
psychology classes, and you know, it was all about rats
and reaction times and behaviorists models of the mind that
didn't make a whole lot of sense in relation to
the dream experiences that I had that were strange, chasing
(02:57):
nightmares and sort of other worldly types of things that
were I found more insights in looking at dreams through
the history of religions, through the history of philosophy, anthropological studies,
as well as modern psychology. So yeah, I try to
bring it all together because dreams are complicated and have many,
(03:18):
many dimensions of meaning.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, a lot of dreams that I've talked with other people,
they will talk about being visited by a relative who
had passed, or some people have talked to me about
they've had a dream of a pet that had passed.
Let me ask you, and you don't have to answer it.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
You know.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I'm sort of like the lawyer and the judge. I
asked the questions. But if you want to invoke the
Fifth Amendment and.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
Anything, feel fair?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Okay, Yeah, no problem.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
No what I'm saying. So, you got interested in dream
research through religion because you were involved in that. Do
you happen to be someone who is religious. There are
people who also are not religious who study religions. Do
you fall any where? Do you fall on that spectrum moment?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not you know, of course, No, no, no,
this is my world. Uh no, I'm going to the
American Academy Religion Conference on a couple of weeks in
San Diego. That's my where I've gone for enviral thirty
plus years.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
So no.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
To going by the way, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, yeah, but no, I'm very interested in religion. I'm
not personally religious in a kind of conventional way. I
have spiritual beliefs and sort of our relations to the
universe and nature in particular and all sorts of things.
But but no, I'm fascinated by by religions in human
life and how dreams in almost all religions are a
(04:42):
primary source of people's experiences and understandings of what the
divine is, what happens after we mentioned dreams of you know,
friends and family and pets who have passed away and
come back in dreams. That's a that's a universal phenomenon,
and in most of the world's religions.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I assume that that phenomenon has they can probably see
it or have writings about it, going back millennia. We're
not talking about something that, oh yeah, all of a
sudden has percolated up in the last fifty years.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Yeah, No, there's a at the end of Homer's Iliat
there's a great example where the where Achilles has a
dream of his friend petruk Lass, who's been killed, but
then comes back to a to Achilles in a dream
and says, hey, you've got to go then to my death.
Go out there and you know, kick some kick some
trojan booty, and an Achilles gets up and does it,
you know. So so yeah, twenty five hundred, I don't
(05:37):
know longer than that. That's that's thousands of years ago
people were talking about these kinds of dreams and how
poignant they are and memorable and intense.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Okay, what what percentage of people? And again I'm asking questions,
and if I ask questions, there is no easy answer.
Does everyone dream? Or virtually everyone dream in some form
of fashion.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
At a kind of brain science level of virtually all
humans have the innate neural hardware of the sleep cycle
of ram and non rens sleep, we can talk more
about that if you like. But familiar with that, Yeah,
we do, we do. We typically associate with dreaming. And
most people, if you get them in a sleep laboratory,
(06:20):
even people say they don't remember their dreams, and if
you wake them up in the middle of a rem
phase and just say catch them right that moment, they'll
probably remember a dream. There is a very small percentage,
perhaps one percent or so, of people who seem to
truly not have any dream recall and not have any
other necessarily psychological problems. So, you know, I don't I
(06:42):
don't amasize like, if you don't remember your dreams, that
means there's something wrong with you. There's That's the way
the case pretty much is the dreamer.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yes, they sort of disappear with me. I can wake
up and I know I was dreaming about something before
I woke up today, and I don't know if it
was work related or whatever, but I remember whatever it was,
I was conscious and that was kind of interesting. And
then fifteen seconds later, now, what was that again? You
know it's yeah, they flowed away.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Well, they have their own way of relating to our
waking consciousness. And the thing that we can be sure
of is that if there's some important message or something
whether our dreams want to let us know about, they
can find us. They know right where we are. So
I tend to emphasize the not the quantity of dreams
(07:31):
that people remember, but the quality of how they reflect
on the few do remember, and that they crossed that
threshold into waking awareness. There's probably a reason for that.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Has any work or study been done? I'm a huge
uh dog guy loved Okay, sure that every dog that
I've only had, really three in my in my life,
that they've all they all dream because I'll see them
lie there and they're they're they're kind of twitching and
(08:02):
and sometimes they're almost talking to themselves. Has there ever
been a study under dogs dream?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah, they're they're actually a growing number of studies, uh,
showing not just dogs, but but many other kinds of animals. Uh, birds,
OCTOPI uh, the mice.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, there's there's were were actually and it's it's an
interesting philosophical question because if we grant that these other
species have dreams, which as a someone who has dogs,
I have cats, you know, I hope you don't cut
me off here.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
But.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
People, Yeah, yeah, but I love dogs yeah, I mean,
I just think of dogs. Cats. Cats to me are
a little more.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I mean, I don't know. Well, they're all dreamers. They're
all dreamers. We you know, we're not to put it
this way. Human rought the only dreaming species on this planet.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, now this is good. Of course I know about
dogs because you live with dogs. You see dogs, You
see him sleeping in the afternoon. Uh And I have
no knowledge of whether elephants or rhinoceros is dream because
I've never been in the presence of close enough to
one of them when they were sleep to see if
they if their eyes were flickering or anything like that. Okay, Okay,
(09:18):
I just wanted to open up the conversation that way.
And we're going to get the phone calls, and you
can ask a question, uh and and be happy to
take the answer. And if doctor Kelly Bulkeley feels he
has to ask you a little bit more about your
dream cycle or your pattern, you've got to be honest.
Then we'll go from there. The only lines that I
(09:40):
have opened, our regular line six, one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty,
are now fold So don't dial those until some of
the callers come on and drop off. Our additional line
six one, seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty are available
as two there and you can jump on board. And
I'd like to get probably to about ten callers this hour.
I suspect we shouldn't have any problem with it. I
(10:01):
see that we have Buck up in Gloucester, Glenn and
Brighton and Karen checking in from Wisconsin already. We'll be
back on Night Side with my guest. He's a psychologist
and a dream researcher, doctor Kelly Bulkeley. Right back back
right after this.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
We're talking with a dream researcher who's a psychologist, doctor
Kelly Bulkeley, and we'll get to some phone calls. I
could certainly talk about my dreams. My recurring dream is
that there's always this one class in law school that
I forgot to take, and it's like May fifteenth, and
(10:43):
the you got to read an entire law school tone
and you got to write a research paper, and you
got the weekend, and I have plans for the weekend.
I have no idea where that comes from. I was
a law student that always tried to things done annotated
and ready to go, and I have no idea why
(11:05):
that's so buried in my psyche. Any suggestion on that one.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, well, these kinds of dreams can provide sort of
templates for life long anxiety, for better for worse. I mean,
for me, it's often sports streams where like I'm in
a game, you know, I'm basketball or baseball or something,
and the ball slits out of my hands or I
can't run fast enough or something that you know, I
(11:30):
think becomes then a metaphor later in life, when long
after I've been playing sports, long after you've been in
law school, where that is kind of a paradigmatic emotional
experience of like, whoa, this is how scary it would
be if I really messed this up? And ever after,
anytime something similar in life comes along, it's anxiety provoking
the unconscious mind kind of goes back there and kind
(11:52):
of remembers that, like, well, let's see, how is it
as scary as this?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
As this was sort of a touch point, and we
also talked the other vent the star in a way,
to be honest, it's what it's a scar.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
It's almost like a scar, you could say, like kind
of a you know, longtime emotional scar man.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, and I think we also talked the other night
briefly about airplane dreams. Uh, and you're on a plane
and it's it's, it's, it's, it's it's not going well.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Oh yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Is that is that a common dream? Or is that
from somebody who has never traveled in a plane before
or someone who would travel and had a bad experiences.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's uh, it's it's great. And I'm
part of a group that's now gathering like a big
database of thousands of dreams that are directly about flying
from different sources. So it's really a great topic. And
and going back in history and cross culturally, there are,
for example, Native American groups where people would describe flying
dreams long before they knew anything about airplanes.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It has to do in an ancient Roman dream interpreter
talking about dreams of flying over the city of Rome
in like second century a d. So this is something
that humans have kind of been fantasizing about presumably forever.
The uh many mystical dreams in Islam or flying dreams.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So if those folks were well ahead of their times,
doctor yeah, yeah, yeah, wins You're on a plane and
the planes is having trouble finding the airport, and it's
flying under bridges and just getting under the bridge, you
two feet on each wing, and it's like, can we
find it? Can we find somewhere to land?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Well, like a plane flying is sort
of this defiance of gravity and defiance of the bounds
that we have in terms of being on the ground,
grounded beings for the most part. So what does it
take to rise above that? And what hold?
Speaker 4 (13:53):
What?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
What? What brings us back down? It's a sort of
a metaphor many people find around.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Fine, let's let's go some of other metaphors that with you.
Let me go first off this hour going to go
to a long time listener and a great caller, Bucket Gloucester.
Buck Welcome here with doctor Kelly Bulkeley. Go right ahead.
We're talking about dreams.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
He doctor Bulkeley, you have a fascinating profession, and it's
ironic these things you were talking about, because that's exactly
what I wanted to share. I love my dreams, okay,
and I've always been athletic, but the one recurring dream
was that no gravity and I could just jump up
(14:37):
and swim through the air. I would always be disappointed
when I woke up and realized it was just a dream.
But it wasn't mindless swimming through the air, but I
propelled myself through the air, and I could, you know,
just do anything I wanted purposely. And I don't have
those anymore. I'm seventy four years old. I don't know
(14:59):
what don't anymore. I'm still athletic. Any insight on that
in particular, you already tell ye that it's universal, it
goes back before there were airplanes. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,
that's that's that's great to hear. And then and and
you know, there is something about gravity or its lacking dreams,
(15:22):
like what like the the reversive flying dreams are falling dreams,
and that's that's many poets. Falling dreams are actually more common,
so the dreams when we're liberated from gravity, when we
can do these magical things, that's where it becomes this
just wonderful metaphor of possibilities. You know, if you can
fly where you know you didn't think you could do
(15:42):
that in waking life, well what else can you do
in waking life that you didn't think you could do?
That's often the like the waking up and feeling disappointed.
There is a sense like, oh I wish I could
really do that. Yeah, yeah, But oftentimes there's a sense like, well,
it's it's sort of a reminder of our own inner
potential and and you know, may not have them as often,
(16:04):
but they're they're they're they're still rattling around in there.
I'm sure. Well I like that because I've never had
any dreams of falling that I can recall. So thank
you very much, just for a great guests, Thank.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You, thanks, thanks for participating, appreciate the call. Let's keep
rolling here. So now we get one line at six
one seven, two fast four to ten thirty, and we
still get get you in at six one seven, nine
three one, ten thirty. We've got to Karen, who's in Wisconsin. Karen,
what dreams would you like to ask about?
Speaker 7 (16:37):
Well, rather asking, I'd just like to say that I
have always dreamt dreaming before I fell asleep, and they've
always been very violent dreams, and you know, dreaming that
I'm going to be chased and killed with care.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Let me I understand that question. You're talking about you
having dreams before you fall asleep.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
Yes, they're hypnal gogic and kept no pompic dreams you
start dreaming before. I'm sure he has done research.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Like, let's get let's get him to explain it and
then we'll talk about your specific dreams.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah, yeah, you know, this is a this is a phenomenon.
It's it's hip. As you just said, Karen, hypnogogic and
hip hypnogogic is sort of from from waking into sleeping hypnopompic,
from sleeping back out and waking. These sort of thresholds
just on the edge of waking and then sleeping. The
mind is special things and they can be very brief,
(17:39):
but they can be intense. So, uh so, Karen, you're
saying that in your these experiences for you, there's sort
of a violent encounter right away.
Speaker 7 (17:49):
The pardon, can you just say that?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, so you're saying there's some some sort of violent
interactions that happens in your list.
Speaker 7 (18:00):
I'm sorry. It was always uh dreaming that I was
going to get killed, to the point that I would
wake up right before I was being stabbed, and then
I always had dreams, beautiful dreams where I'm sore over
the ocean like a pelican. And now now I have
(18:21):
to take medicine so that because I would dream and
you cannot live and dream. I mean you're paralyzed. When
you're dreams, you are awake, you could kill someone. So
I take medicine so that doesn't happen, but I don't
dream anymore.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, Well, let me just make sure, Karen, I want
to interpret this. You take medicine that's prescribed by a doctor,
so your mind will not be as active when you're
in the process of falling asleep or when.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
You're right good, okay, right?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Is that common, doctor, Yes, there's there's there's many kinds
of sort of conditions where sleep can be disrupted by
things happening. Either he's said a hidden the god to
kidnap pumpic uh phenomenon. That that just starts to sound
a little bit like a like a sleep paralysis episode,
which is a whole other aspect of of you know,
(19:20):
sleep pathology.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Or I want to I want to talk about that separate,
separately from Karen. Karen, I'm kind of coming up at
my newscast here, right, that was a very interesting I
had never heard of that, so so you have eliminated that.
I assume now you can go to sleep without dealing
with these sorts of experiences.
Speaker 7 (19:40):
I don't dream anymore, but i'd like to get off
the drugs really because because not good when you're old,
you know. But maybe I don't need them anymore.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I would. I would suggest you should talk to you doctor,
your doctor. Yeah, no, I'm seriously. Maybe maybe this will
prompt you, this conversation that I will prompt you to
do that. It's important for you to always tell you
your doctor what you're thinking. He may say to you. Know,
you've got to stay on Those dreams are that.
Speaker 7 (20:09):
I wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, I don't know that.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
I just thought it was an interestinct phenomenon.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Well, thanks very much for bringing that up. I had
never heard of it. Karen in Wisconsin.
Speaker 7 (20:20):
Thanks Karen, and I don't dream anymore, and I'm very
happy that I don't thank you very much to share that.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
We got a newscast coming up which we have to
take and then a couple of commercials. If you'd like
to join us, one line at six one, seven, two, five,
four ten thirty. That is our regular line, the one
that's even easier to get through. One is six one, seven, nine,
three one, ten thirty. They get you to the same place.
If you'd like to talk with doctor Kelly Bulkley, Uh,
(20:52):
he is a he's a psychologist and a dream researcher,
and any questions you have. I want to talk to
you at some point about those paralytic dreams because I've
experienced those where you wake up and you think something's
going on and you just you're awake, or you think
you're awake, but you physically incapacitated, you just can't move exactly.
We'll get to those. We got other callers. We'll continue
(21:13):
along with doctor Kelly Bulkeley right after this news break
and a couple of commercial messages. You're listening to night
Side on WBZ and Boston ten thirty and the AM
dial coming back right after this.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
We're talking about your dreams, talking with psychologists and dream researcher,
doctor Kelly Bokeley. I hope the term dream researcher is
an appropriate and accurate characterization.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, so absolutely, that's that's that's my focus. I've been
at it for almost forty years now.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Right, No, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't
a more technical term. I didn't. I didn't want to
downgrade it, but I want people to understand.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, we come in many varieties. I mean, I'm on
the kind of religion and psychology side of things that
people who are more neuroscientifically trained, let's say, or you know,
experimental psychologist, therapist. But I'm yeah, we're all. We're all
doing the same thing, trying and understand what dreams are about.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
All right, let's keep rolling. You're going to go to Glenn. Glenn,
what type of dreams do you want to talk about?
My friend? You are next on nice side with doctor
Kelly Fulckly. Go ahead, Glenn.
Speaker 5 (22:27):
Yeah, I was raised by religious fanatics because I became
an atheist. Buttally, I'm a believer again, but I'm a
cultural Christian. I'm not a biblical Christian. Other words, that's
good to know.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
How does that affect your dreams? Let's talk dreams.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
I have this scary recurring dream I was telling Rob
and thank God I wake up before I hit. I
go to heaven and they don't want me. So next
thing I know, I'm flying through the air because I'm
not holding onto no parachuting. I'm just and I'm going
faster and faster and faster. I'm just indefinitely falling. Thank
(23:04):
god I wake up. And I do have sleep paralysis
a lot too, which I've had that since I was six.
I'm seventy one.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, well, let's talk about the first one being rejected
from heaven.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Bad, that's a bad that's a nightmare ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, yeah, Well it's uh. Dreams are very sensitive to
our religious and spiritual lives, and and particularly for people
who've been raised in a tradition that they later in
life don't feel comfortable in and maybe actively have to
you know, forcedly, you know, separate themselves from. There can
be lingering effects from that, and that's a yeah dream,
(23:44):
that's like I imagine there's a lot of guilts that
comes with a dream like that, and yet also depending
on how one looks at it, it could be a
sense of you know, liberation too, like, well that's not
you know, they didn't want me. Well maybe you know
I don't want them, you know, that's that's you know,
I mean, this is this is where it's ultimately up
to the dreamer. I guess it's you know, Glenn, I
(24:05):
would have to say, like, you know, make sure that
you know you always trust your own instinct about these things,
because that's that's that's where it ultimately ends.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
How often Glenny experienced this, this recurring.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Dream at least once a month?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
What's a month? And what kicks it off? Is there
something that kicks it off?
Speaker 5 (24:25):
I don't know. I just it starts out nice that
you know, Saint Peter says, hi, and you know this,
and then somebody will say, you know, somebody one of
my weight relatives will say he didn't go to church
very often. He shouldn't be. You shouldn't let.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Him, you know, uh hearing it, it's ugly head.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, well you know something well, you know something Glenn
that people often will do with with recurrent like this
is though before we're going to sleep at night, they'll
think about that dream and think about, you know, if
I have that dream again tonight, instead of you know,
letting myself fall, I'm gonna I'm gonna grab on, I'm
gonna i'm gonna clip you know, I'm gonna tie a
(25:15):
rope onto a post and hang on, or I'm gonna
jump over the gate, or I'm gonna, you know, think
of thinking of how you might react in the dream
and any luck.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Yeah. Well, when one I got into a brawl like
a first It started out as a wrestling and turned
into a face flight. I said, I belong here. You're
not pushing me out. You're not gonna do to me
what you did the last time. Hey, break it up,
Break it up.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Break, try to put a disguise on so you can
slip by those nasty rat You out, all right, Dan,
that's a good one. Thank you. Thanks for the call, Hope.
That helps a little bit, give you a thought to
deal with. Let me grab my let's say good night
to Glenn. Okay, and we are going to go next
(26:02):
to Rick in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. Have checked in so far, Rick,
Welcome next to On Nightstime with doctor Kelly Bulkeley.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Go right ahead, Rick, Hi, Hi, Dan, and doctor Kelly.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
How are you. Dan.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
It's been a while since I've called you.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
Well.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Not a problem you do. Don't have to go to confession.
There's no religious aspect to this church on Sunday. Don't
worry about it.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Okay, go ahead, Thank you, thank you. I have these
crazy dreams and they're so exhausting I wake up. I
feel tired from the dream. I've had these dreams where
I'm looking for something, going from one place to another,
looking and looking, and the dreams seem to last for hours,
(26:47):
and then I wake up. I feel exhausted from the dreams,
and I I just wondered what you might think about
that in search of something it can be. I don't
there's no particular item I'm searching for. It's crazy, okay, yeah,
(27:08):
well well yeah, and it just just quick like are
they in the same settings each time or is it
just every different places with that kind of searching quality
looking at an item that could be and and then
after I wake up, it's hard to remember. That's why
I can't relate your call. And I know it's it's
(27:29):
bouncing around. It seems that like it lasts for hours,
going from one place to another, and they don't make
any sense. But it's yeah, yeah, you know, I might
think of like, so, so there is something about the
brain and dreaming that this is a general way putting,
but that that we we that it activates Pickling ren
sleep what's called the orienting response, which is basically like
(27:52):
if you're thrown into a situation you've never been before,
you look around, you try to figure out what's going on,
where am I, what's what's happening? And then the ideas
that our minds create these these these you know, amazing scenarios.
From that point, it sounds like you may be in
a place where like you're just kind of orienting, just
like where am I looking trying to find? And it
(28:14):
makes me wonder if there's some maybe pre sleep relaxation practices.
You know, there's uh, you know, sort of breathing exercises,
different things people do that, something called yoga ndra that's
kind of a pre sleep spiritual practice, different ways that
might calm kind of that that that that what sounds
(28:36):
like kind of a hyper aroused orienting response. And in
the dream worlds, I am under a lot of stress
in different areas and yeah, it must even safe into
my during uh yeah, I mean having said that too,
there's always multiple dimensions to dreams. There's never just one
(28:57):
meaning and a dream in which there's sort of this
ongoing searching that can also have some spiritual overtones of
I'm looking for my path, my purpose, my my my
ultimate values. That could be part of part of what's
going on too. That sounds very possible.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, thank you very much for joining us. I think
that you've got you've got some insights that you can
work with here. So thank you. Great call.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
You're welcome. I have a good evening. Thanks.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, it's funny. Different people have really good questions here tonight.
Let me go next to Jan in Worcester back home
to Massachusetts. In Worcester, Massachusetts, Jan, what's your question? Doctor
Kelly Bulkeley, go right ahead.
Speaker 8 (29:43):
Bye Dan and doctor Bley. How are you listen? I've
got two very quick dreams, h Garry, and they haven't
quite a bit. One of them is that I'm always
in a city and I've driven my car and park it.
Then when it comes time to find that thing, i'll
never find, never find it.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I'm with it. I had that same dream, Jim. We
must have both lost our.
Speaker 8 (30:08):
Cars, right, So I walk around the city and find
strangers who are kind to me and help me to
try and give me a ride or something. And that's
kind of where it ends, just try and find the car.
The other dream is one where it's very enjoyable. I
will go in. I'll be in a house for some reason,
(30:29):
maybe gonna rent or buy, god, I don't know. An
old one usually with many many rooms, and I discover
lots of rooms and wondering what I could do with
each one of them, and room to room and more rooms,
and that comes up quite a bit too.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Hmm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Let's deal with the Let's deal with the parking one first,
because I think some people are going to have that.
I had the same situation. I know where I parked
my car. I'm in an area that I'm familiar with.
It's not like, come in a city that I've never
been before, and I know that I parked my car
in this block on that side of the street, and
(31:08):
I go there and it's not there. But I'm I
I know I parked it, but I'm not worried about
buying stolem. But I can't find it.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, yeah, well these are these are some of the
sort of day to day anxieties of living in the
modern world. And and and dreams are actually really accurate
reflections of the things that we worry about and feel,
you know, different emotional things towards towards the waking world
that that shows up in our dream. So at one level,
(31:37):
it's as simple as yeah, this is it's a big
hassle when you can't find your car in waking life,
and our dreams can can reflect that that anxieties, both
literally and metaphorically, because cars are often symbols of the self,
of our our our individuality in uh, this modern world.
(31:57):
When you're in your car, driving your you're in this
little you know, sort of metal shell and everyone else
is in their metal shells.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And so try not having a the day that it's
in the shop and you say, gee, I wanted to
go here, I wanted to go there was so wedded to.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Our yeah, yeah, very much.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
So those there's situation that has talked about.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
With the house, that's that's a that's many people find
that an enjoyable dream, and and psychologists will often interpret
that is the house symbolizing the mind, the sort of
the inner uh sort of architecture of the psyche. And
to discover new rooms is to discover new aspects of
the self. And so Carl Jung had a famous dream
(32:40):
of a house at many levels and the deeper he went,
the farther down into the unconscious he went. And uh,
so many psychologists have kind of drawn on that metaphor
as a way of thinking about how our minds sort
of are are shaped and how we you know, kind
of live within our the structure of our minds.
Speaker 8 (33:00):
Wow, thank you very much. It's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Thank you, so thanks very much.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Have you called my show before? Is this your first time?
Speaker 8 (33:08):
I called you once?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
I believe once, you believe I.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Think like ten years ago, Jan, because I don't know, no, no.
Speaker 8 (33:19):
This may this might be the first time. I don't
know for sure.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
Why don't we do this.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Let's give Jan a round of applause because if it's
a possible first time, we always like to welcome first
time callers. We'll look forward to your next call.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Thanks, Jan, have a great night, Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
These are the nights Doctor Buckley, that a lot of
times people who listened to the show regularly decide to call.
It's interesting, it gets the telephone. We got one more
coming up. I get Laurient, Idaho, so we're gonna have Wisconsin,
Idaho and Pennsylvania for sure, and I can probably try
(33:59):
to get a couple more. Get Peggy as well. Give
us a call six one, seven, two, five, four to
ten thirty six one seven, nine, three one ten thirty.
Be right back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 9 (34:15):
By the way, at ten o'clock after the ten o'clock
News talking with former Boston, New York and Los Angeles
Police Commissioner Bill Bratton about security concerns relating to the
election of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
That'll cause you some nightmares. Let me go to Laurie,
you know in Idaho. Laurie is next here on Nightside.
Love to know, Laurie, what sort of dreams you would
like to ask my guest, doctor Kelly Bulkeley about. Go
right ahead, Laurie, my.
Speaker 6 (34:41):
Dan and doctor. Well, so I have the typical following,
you know, But then I actually learned somewhere along the
line to tell myself it wasn't gonna hurt when I fail,
And then I woke up the that's right. But I
do have airplane dreams, and this is a recurring one.
I'm on a full sized jetliner and it's got no
roof on the fuselage. For whatever reason, I don't there's
no access and whatever. I guess it's just the way
it was made.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
And so but it is it is.
Speaker 6 (35:04):
We're not above the oxygen situation because we're actually flying
through a city below skyscraper level. And it's kind of
like yours that we never went under bridges, but around
and banking and going around the skyscrapers and stuff. And
my seat is the only plane I've only seen the
plane that doesn't have a seat belt, and they're always
in vivid, vivid color.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Good luck doctor by Buckley with this one.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that sounds like a like a like
a action movie or like a like a Disney theme
park ride or something. I mean that really sounds uh
uh am, I right that it's it's physically you can
feel the the the sort of the swerve I think
you said swerving or banking again.
Speaker 6 (35:50):
Oh yeah, I'm afraid of falling out of my seat
and falling out of the plane. Everybody else's on my
seat doesn't have a seat belt, right right, Well.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
This, Laurie, why pick a seat like that? Go ahead?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Uh huh yeah yeah yeah. And you say color that
was in vivid color? Like what can you say anything
about the colors or what's what?
Speaker 5 (36:13):
Right?
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Right? Oranges?
Speaker 6 (36:14):
Greens, like the trees that we go by are brilliant green,
they're oranges. There are reds super vivid.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Yeah, yeah, well this is I mean thank you for
sharing this. It's it's it's sort of a testament to
the power of the dream imagination that you know, you're
lying there asleep in the dark, you know, eyes closed, motionless,
and yet hear your body is like you know in
the dreams, swooping around and the vivid colors like the
you know, the dreaming of mind is really an amazing thing.
And and when it goes to the trouble of creating
(36:42):
some vivid is this that that's a lot of red
to create something a dream death that vivid it it
tends to reflect something important in life. And and and
I guess I would if it were my dream. This
is the way, you know, we'd often talk about dreams.
I don't know what it means to you, but if
I had a dream like that, I would certainly think,
are there areas in my life where I have that
(37:05):
kind of feeling of a lot of potential movement, but
also a lot of constraints that I've got to find
some way to even though it seems are possible, I've
got to find some way to navigate my way through.
That may or may not relate to your sensitive but
that's what comes to mind.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Laurie. That's I hope that helps a little bit. Okay,
thanks Laura, appreciate you.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I'm gonna try to get at least one, maybe two
in here. Let me see what I can do. I'm
gonna go next to Danielle in Worcester. Danielle, you were
next on nightside. You got to give us your dream
quickly because they want to get one more as well.
Go ahead, Danielle.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
So I have a couple of you know, I always
have those dreams that the person is real, somebody that
I know, but they won't be at their house. It'll
be somebody else's house, so it's we wake up and
you can never remember what they were. So I have
those a lot, and I am guilty of not sleeping
a lot, so I don't get into rooms sleep a lot,
(38:06):
which is terrible. But the other one that really sticks
out when I was younger, when I first moved to
Worcester out of high school, I had the most vivid,
realistic dream of a place I lived with my dad,
and my mom for some reason was taking me there
to show me something. When we're in the car and
as we round the corner, she goes, look and the
(38:26):
townhouse that we lived in was just a pile of
ashes that had burnt to the ground. And I went, no,
and I get out of the car and I went
running towards the pile of ashes, and up comes my
dad and I went Dad, and I went to hug them,
and it was like the movie ghosts, you know, when
you arms go through them. And I woke up, and
I woke up like sweating piper ventialy and go. So
(38:47):
I called him my dad and now I'm nineteen years old,
and he answered the four thirty in the morning, and
you know, we had home phones back then and on
cell phones, and he of course was scared, you know,
like startled, but I told him, like, I just had
to hear your voice. And my father's theory has always
been a few dream of somebody that's donated in your
sleep that you're wishing them a healthy life, a long
(39:09):
healthy life.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Okay, listen what doctor Bulkeley says here. You you raised
a questions. Quick answer from doctor Bulkley.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Yeah, well, well, a lot of these kinds of dreams
are expressing in very dramatic form, are feelings a concern
for our loved ones. So sometimes they really can be
very dramatic. Sometimes there can be a prophetic quality too,
so I don't I don't blame me for giving your
your dad a call and just checking in on them.
That's an amazing dream. Yeah all right, yeah it was
so realistic.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
But anyway, thank you.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
That was This is really neat listening to this.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
I've always been into this kind off.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
Well this has been this has.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Been so thanks Danielle. By the way, this has been
so good. I got a bunch of people who aren't
going to be able to get in here, So to
Dana and Peggy and Gina, I apologize. I have a
guest coming up next hour, so I I did my best.
But again, this is not the sort of thing you
can move through people quickly. Next time, you got to
just call a little earlier, folks. I keep reminding people.
(40:03):
Then when you wait till the last ten or fifteen minutes,
there's no guarantees. So sorry, sorry, sorry, all big thank
you to doctor Kelly Bulkeley. This was great. You know what,
Let's let's do this again a couple of months from now,
because there were a lot of good questions and a
lot of interesting experiences, and I thought this was a
great hour. Thanks doctor Bulkeley, it exceeded my expectations.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
So great. Yeah, happy have you so they've truly been
great questions, a lot of I mean, and things we
could talk about for a long time.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Absolutely, and we'll do it again. And you had a
chance to talk to listeners in Massachusetts, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Idaho.
We do have quite a quite a reach on this
on this stage. Thanks so much, best of best of luck.
We will talk again. I'd like to have you back.
Thank you, doctor balcr.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Thank you good, appreciate it all right, thanks again.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And when we get back, we will talk with Bill Bratton,
former police commissioner, about Secure and about what's going on
in this crazy world of ours. Back after this
It's nice side with Ray WBS radiomor right.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome back everybody. It is nine oh six. I think
it was pretty quick. Uh run down stairs, get a
lit glass of water, and you run back up. Okay,
as simple as that. We are going to give you
an opportunity to talk with a researcher, a dream researcher.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
His name is Kelly Bulkeley. Hopefully doctor Bulkeley. I'm getting
that correct tonight. How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I'm doing good. Yes, that was perfect, Thank you, Yeah,
be with you.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Doctor Bulkeley was with us a little over a week ago.
He is a psychologist and a dream researcher, and this
is an opportunity for us to focus not only upon
his general field work in this field, but all So
give you an opportunity if you'd like to call in
(01:02):
my producer today during we do a little promotional piece
every day at four thirty for our program, and my producer,
Marita aka Lightning was was mentioning that you were going
to be our guest tonight, and she said that she
had a recurring dream of zombies, that she was a
(01:23):
zombie and very disquieted because she's not a fan of
zombie movies. So I guess everybody has those dreams. So
let's let's first of all explain to us generally, and
we'll get to phone calls. I promise there's a few
folks of the line already. You guys will be all set.
But how did you get into dream research? You're a psychologist,
(01:47):
I understand that. How was it and what drew you
to the to the to the whole area of dream research.
As I found out the other night when we talked,
everybody dreams in some full we would talking the other night.
If you recall between that there was some people dreaming
in black and white, others dream in color, and you
can't remember your dreams unless you're writing down. We'll go
(02:08):
over some of that again. But how did you first
get involved in this? What drew you to this field?
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, well, like many people, my own dreams sort of
steered me away from the path of normality and got
me very interested in this topic that did lots of
people look at, but not everybody sort of tries to
bring together all the different strands of research. So I'm
actually a psychologist of religion. My graduate school training was
(02:36):
in religious studies, the psychology of religion in part because
I was interested in dreams and I went to college
psychology classes, and you know, it was all about rats
and reaction times and behaviorists models of the mind that
didn't make a whole lot of sense in relation to
the dream experiences that I had that were strange, chasing
(02:57):
nightmares and sort of other worldly types of things that
were I found more insights in looking at dreams through
the history of religions, through the history of philosophy, anthropological studies,
as well as modern psychology. So yeah, I try to
bring it all together because dreams are complicated and have many,
(03:18):
many dimensions of meaning.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, a lot of dreams that I've talked with other people,
they will talk about being visited by a relative who
had passed, or some people have talked to me about
they've had a dream of a pet that had passed.
Let me ask you, and you don't have to answer it.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
You know.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I'm sort of like the lawyer and the judge. I
asked the questions. But if you want to invoke the
Fifth Amendment and.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
Anything, feel fair?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Okay, Yeah, no problem.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
No what I'm saying. So, you got interested in dream
research through religion because you were involved in that. Do
you happen to be someone who is religious. There are
people who also are not religious who study religions. Do
you fall any where? Do you fall on that spectrum moment?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not you know, of course, No, no, no,
this is my world. Uh no, I'm going to the
American Academy Religion Conference on a couple of weeks in
San Diego. That's my where I've gone for enviral thirty
plus years.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
So no.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
To going by the way, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, yeah, but no, I'm very interested in religion. I'm
not personally religious in a kind of conventional way. I
have spiritual beliefs and sort of our relations to the
universe and nature in particular and all sorts of things.
But but no, I'm fascinated by by religions in human
life and how dreams in almost all religions are a
(04:42):
primary source of people's experiences and understandings of what the
divine is, what happens after we mentioned dreams of you know,
friends and family and pets who have passed away and
come back in dreams. That's a that's a universal phenomenon,
and in most of the world's religions.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I assume that that phenomenon has they can probably see
it or have writings about it, going back millennia. We're
not talking about something that, oh yeah, all of a
sudden has percolated up in the last fifty years.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Yeah, No, there's a at the end of Homer's Iliat
there's a great example where the where Achilles has a
dream of his friend petruk Lass, who's been killed, but
then comes back to a to Achilles in a dream
and says, hey, you've got to go then to my death.
Go out there and you know, kick some kick some
trojan booty, and an Achilles gets up and does it,
you know. So so yeah, twenty five hundred, I don't
(05:37):
know longer than that. That's that's thousands of years ago
people were talking about these kinds of dreams and how
poignant they are and memorable and intense.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Okay, what what percentage of people? And again I'm asking questions,
and if I ask questions, there is no easy answer.
Does everyone dream? Or virtually everyone dream in some form
of fashion.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
At a kind of brain science level of virtually all
humans have the innate neural hardware of the sleep cycle
of ram and non rens sleep, we can talk more
about that if you like. But familiar with that, Yeah,
we do, we do. We typically associate with dreaming. And
most people, if you get them in a sleep laboratory,
(06:20):
even people say they don't remember their dreams, and if
you wake them up in the middle of a rem
phase and just say catch them right that moment, they'll
probably remember a dream. There is a very small percentage,
perhaps one percent or so, of people who seem to
truly not have any dream recall and not have any
other necessarily psychological problems. So, you know, I don't I
(06:42):
don't amasize like, if you don't remember your dreams, that
means there's something wrong with you. There's That's the way
the case pretty much is the dreamer.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yes, they sort of disappear with me. I can wake
up and I know I was dreaming about something before
I woke up today, and I don't know if it
was work related or whatever, but I remember whatever it was,
I was conscious and that was kind of interesting. And
then fifteen seconds later, now, what was that again? You
know it's yeah, they flowed away.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Well, they have their own way of relating to our
waking consciousness. And the thing that we can be sure
of is that if there's some important message or something
whether our dreams want to let us know about, they
can find us. They know right where we are. So
I tend to emphasize the not the quantity of dreams
(07:31):
that people remember, but the quality of how they reflect
on the few do remember, and that they crossed that
threshold into waking awareness. There's probably a reason for that.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Has any work or study been done? I'm a huge
uh dog guy loved Okay, sure that every dog that
I've only had, really three in my in my life,
that they've all they all dream because I'll see them
lie there and they're they're they're kind of twitching and
(08:02):
and sometimes they're almost talking to themselves. Has there ever
been a study under dogs dream?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah, they're they're actually a growing number of studies, uh,
showing not just dogs, but but many other kinds of animals. Uh, birds,
OCTOPI uh, the mice.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, there's there's were were actually and it's it's an
interesting philosophical question because if we grant that these other
species have dreams, which as a someone who has dogs,
I have cats, you know, I hope you don't cut
me off here.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
But.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
People, Yeah, yeah, but I love dogs yeah, I mean,
I just think of dogs. Cats. Cats to me are
a little more.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I mean, I don't know. Well, they're all dreamers. They're
all dreamers. We you know, we're not to put it
this way. Human rought the only dreaming species on this planet.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, now this is good. Of course I know about
dogs because you live with dogs. You see dogs, You
see him sleeping in the afternoon. Uh And I have
no knowledge of whether elephants or rhinoceros is dream because
I've never been in the presence of close enough to
one of them when they were sleep to see if
they if their eyes were flickering or anything like that. Okay, Okay,
(09:18):
I just wanted to open up the conversation that way.
And we're going to get the phone calls, and you
can ask a question, uh and and be happy to
take the answer. And if doctor Kelly Bulkeley feels he
has to ask you a little bit more about your
dream cycle or your pattern, you've got to be honest.
Then we'll go from there. The only lines that I
(09:40):
have opened, our regular line six, one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty,
are now fold So don't dial those until some of
the callers come on and drop off. Our additional line
six one, seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty are available
as two there and you can jump on board. And
I'd like to get probably to about ten callers this hour.
I suspect we shouldn't have any problem with it. I
(10:01):
see that we have Buck up in Gloucester, Glenn and
Brighton and Karen checking in from Wisconsin already. We'll be
back on Night Side with my guest. He's a psychologist
and a dream researcher, doctor Kelly Bulkeley. Right back back
right after this.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
We're talking with a dream researcher who's a psychologist, doctor
Kelly Bulkeley, and we'll get to some phone calls. I
could certainly talk about my dreams. My recurring dream is
that there's always this one class in law school that
I forgot to take, and it's like May fifteenth, and
(10:43):
the you got to read an entire law school tone
and you got to write a research paper, and you
got the weekend, and I have plans for the weekend.
I have no idea where that comes from. I was
a law student that always tried to things done annotated
and ready to go, and I have no idea why
(11:05):
that's so buried in my psyche. Any suggestion on that one.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, well, these kinds of dreams can provide sort of
templates for life long anxiety, for better for worse. I mean,
for me, it's often sports streams where like I'm in
a game, you know, I'm basketball or baseball or something,
and the ball slits out of my hands or I
can't run fast enough or something that you know, I
(11:30):
think becomes then a metaphor later in life, when long
after I've been playing sports, long after you've been in
law school, where that is kind of a paradigmatic emotional
experience of like, whoa, this is how scary it would
be if I really messed this up? And ever after,
anytime something similar in life comes along, it's anxiety provoking
the unconscious mind kind of goes back there and kind
(11:52):
of remembers that, like, well, let's see, how is it
as scary as this?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
As this was sort of a touch point, and we
also talked the other vent the star in a way,
to be honest, it's what it's a scar.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
It's almost like a scar, you could say, like kind
of a you know, longtime emotional scar man.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, and I think we also talked the other night
briefly about airplane dreams. Uh, and you're on a plane
and it's it's, it's, it's, it's it's not going well.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Oh yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Is that is that a common dream? Or is that
from somebody who has never traveled in a plane before
or someone who would travel and had a bad experiences.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's uh, it's it's great. And I'm
part of a group that's now gathering like a big
database of thousands of dreams that are directly about flying
from different sources. So it's really a great topic. And
and going back in history and cross culturally, there are,
for example, Native American groups where people would describe flying
dreams long before they knew anything about airplanes.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It has to do in an ancient Roman dream interpreter
talking about dreams of flying over the city of Rome
in like second century a d. So this is something
that humans have kind of been fantasizing about presumably forever.
The uh many mystical dreams in Islam or flying dreams.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So if those folks were well ahead of their times,
doctor yeah, yeah, yeah, wins You're on a plane and
the planes is having trouble finding the airport, and it's
flying under bridges and just getting under the bridge, you
two feet on each wing, and it's like, can we
find it? Can we find somewhere to land?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Well, like a plane flying is sort
of this defiance of gravity and defiance of the bounds
that we have in terms of being on the ground,
grounded beings for the most part. So what does it
take to rise above that? And what hold?
Speaker 4 (13:53):
What?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
What? What brings us back down? It's a sort of
a metaphor many people find around.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Fine, let's let's go some of other metaphors that with you.
Let me go first off this hour going to go
to a long time listener and a great caller, Bucket Gloucester.
Buck Welcome here with doctor Kelly Bulkeley. Go right ahead.
We're talking about dreams.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
He doctor Bulkeley, you have a fascinating profession, and it's
ironic these things you were talking about, because that's exactly
what I wanted to share. I love my dreams, okay,
and I've always been athletic, but the one recurring dream
was that no gravity and I could just jump up
(14:37):
and swim through the air. I would always be disappointed
when I woke up and realized it was just a dream.
But it wasn't mindless swimming through the air, but I
propelled myself through the air, and I could, you know,
just do anything I wanted purposely. And I don't have
those anymore. I'm seventy four years old. I don't know
(14:59):
what don't anymore. I'm still athletic. Any insight on that
in particular, you already tell ye that it's universal, it
goes back before there were airplanes. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,
that's that's that's great to hear. And then and and
you know, there is something about gravity or its lacking dreams,
(15:22):
like what like the the reversive flying dreams are falling dreams,
and that's that's many poets. Falling dreams are actually more common,
so the dreams when we're liberated from gravity, when we
can do these magical things, that's where it becomes this
just wonderful metaphor of possibilities. You know, if you can
fly where you know you didn't think you could do
(15:42):
that in waking life, well what else can you do
in waking life that you didn't think you could do?
That's often the like the waking up and feeling disappointed.
There is a sense like, oh I wish I could
really do that. Yeah, yeah, But oftentimes there's a sense like, well,
it's it's sort of a reminder of our own inner
potential and and you know, may not have them as often,
(16:04):
but they're they're they're they're still rattling around in there.
I'm sure. Well I like that because I've never had
any dreams of falling that I can recall. So thank
you very much, just for a great guests, Thank.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You, thanks, thanks for participating, appreciate the call. Let's keep
rolling here. So now we get one line at six
one seven, two fast four to ten thirty, and we
still get get you in at six one seven, nine
three one, ten thirty. We've got to Karen, who's in Wisconsin. Karen,
what dreams would you like to ask about?
Speaker 7 (16:37):
Well, rather asking, I'd just like to say that I
have always dreamt dreaming before I fell asleep, and they've
always been very violent dreams, and you know, dreaming that
I'm going to be chased and killed with care.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Let me I understand that question. You're talking about you
having dreams before you fall asleep.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
Yes, they're hypnal gogic and kept no pompic dreams you
start dreaming before. I'm sure he has done research.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Like, let's get let's get him to explain it and
then we'll talk about your specific dreams.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah, yeah, you know, this is a this is a phenomenon.
It's it's hip. As you just said, Karen, hypnogogic and
hip hypnogogic is sort of from from waking into sleeping hypnopompic,
from sleeping back out and waking. These sort of thresholds
just on the edge of waking and then sleeping. The
mind is special things and they can be very brief,
(17:39):
but they can be intense. So, uh so, Karen, you're
saying that in your these experiences for you, there's sort
of a violent encounter right away.
Speaker 7 (17:49):
The pardon, can you just say that?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, so you're saying there's some some sort of violent
interactions that happens in your list.
Speaker 7 (18:00):
I'm sorry. It was always uh dreaming that I was
going to get killed, to the point that I would
wake up right before I was being stabbed, and then
I always had dreams, beautiful dreams where I'm sore over
the ocean like a pelican. And now now I have
(18:21):
to take medicine so that because I would dream and
you cannot live and dream. I mean you're paralyzed. When
you're dreams, you are awake, you could kill someone. So
I take medicine so that doesn't happen, but I don't
dream anymore.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, Well, let me just make sure, Karen, I want
to interpret this. You take medicine that's prescribed by a doctor,
so your mind will not be as active when you're
in the process of falling asleep or when.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
You're right good, okay, right?
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Is that common, doctor, Yes, there's there's there's many kinds
of sort of conditions where sleep can be disrupted by
things happening. Either he's said a hidden the god to
kidnap pumpic uh phenomenon. That that just starts to sound
a little bit like a like a sleep paralysis episode,
which is a whole other aspect of of you know,
(19:20):
sleep pathology.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Or I want to I want to talk about that separate,
separately from Karen. Karen, I'm kind of coming up at
my newscast here, right, that was a very interesting I
had never heard of that, so so you have eliminated that.
I assume now you can go to sleep without dealing
with these sorts of experiences.
Speaker 7 (19:40):
I don't dream anymore, but i'd like to get off
the drugs really because because not good when you're old,
you know. But maybe I don't need them anymore.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I would. I would suggest you should talk to you doctor,
your doctor. Yeah, no, I'm seriously. Maybe maybe this will
prompt you, this conversation that I will prompt you to
do that. It's important for you to always tell you
your doctor what you're thinking. He may say to you. Know,
you've got to stay on Those dreams are that.
Speaker 7 (20:09):
I wouldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, I don't know that.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
I just thought it was an interestinct phenomenon.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Well, thanks very much for bringing that up. I had
never heard of it. Karen in Wisconsin.
Speaker 7 (20:20):
Thanks Karen, and I don't dream anymore, and I'm very
happy that I don't thank you very much to share that.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
We got a newscast coming up which we have to
take and then a couple of commercials. If you'd like
to join us, one line at six one, seven, two, five,
four ten thirty. That is our regular line, the one
that's even easier to get through. One is six one, seven, nine,
three one, ten thirty. They get you to the same place.
If you'd like to talk with doctor Kelly Bulkley, Uh,
(20:52):
he is a he's a psychologist and a dream researcher,
and any questions you have. I want to talk to
you at some point about those paralytic dreams because I've
experienced those where you wake up and you think something's
going on and you just you're awake, or you think
you're awake, but you physically incapacitated, you just can't move exactly.
We'll get to those. We got other callers. We'll continue
(21:13):
along with doctor Kelly Bulkeley right after this news break
and a couple of commercial messages. You're listening to night
Side on WBZ and Boston ten thirty and the AM
dial coming back right after this.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
We're talking about your dreams, talking with psychologists and dream researcher,
doctor Kelly Bokeley. I hope the term dream researcher is
an appropriate and accurate characterization.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, so absolutely, that's that's that's my focus. I've been
at it for almost forty years now.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Right, No, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't
a more technical term. I didn't. I didn't want to
downgrade it, but I want people to understand.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, we come in many varieties. I mean, I'm on
the kind of religion and psychology side of things that
people who are more neuroscientifically trained, let's say, or you know,
experimental psychologist, therapist. But I'm yeah, we're all. We're all
doing the same thing, trying and understand what dreams are about.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
All right, let's keep rolling. You're going to go to Glenn. Glenn,
what type of dreams do you want to talk about?
My friend? You are next on nice side with doctor
Kelly Fulckly. Go ahead, Glenn.
Speaker 5 (22:27):
Yeah, I was raised by religious fanatics because I became
an atheist. Buttally, I'm a believer again, but I'm a
cultural Christian. I'm not a biblical Christian. Other words, that's
good to know.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
How does that affect your dreams? Let's talk dreams.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
I have this scary recurring dream I was telling Rob
and thank God I wake up before I hit. I
go to heaven and they don't want me. So next
thing I know, I'm flying through the air because I'm
not holding onto no parachuting. I'm just and I'm going
faster and faster and faster. I'm just indefinitely falling. Thank
(23:04):
god I wake up. And I do have sleep paralysis
a lot too, which I've had that since I was six.
I'm seventy one.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, well, let's talk about the first one being rejected
from heaven.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Bad, that's a bad that's a nightmare ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, yeah, Well it's uh. Dreams are very sensitive to
our religious and spiritual lives, and and particularly for people
who've been raised in a tradition that they later in
life don't feel comfortable in and maybe actively have to
you know, forcedly, you know, separate themselves from. There can
be lingering effects from that, and that's a yeah dream,
(23:44):
that's like I imagine there's a lot of guilts that
comes with a dream like that, and yet also depending
on how one looks at it, it could be a
sense of you know, liberation too, like, well that's not
you know, they didn't want me. Well maybe you know
I don't want them, you know, that's that's you know,
I mean, this is this is where it's ultimately up
to the dreamer. I guess it's you know, Glenn, I
(24:05):
would have to say, like, you know, make sure that
you know you always trust your own instinct about these things,
because that's that's that's where it ultimately ends.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
How often Glenny experienced this, this recurring.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Dream at least once a month?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
What's a month? And what kicks it off? Is there
something that kicks it off?
Speaker 5 (24:25):
I don't know. I just it starts out nice that
you know, Saint Peter says, hi, and you know this,
and then somebody will say, you know, somebody one of
my weight relatives will say he didn't go to church
very often. He shouldn't be. You shouldn't let.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Him, you know, uh hearing it, it's ugly head.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, well you know something well, you know something Glenn
that people often will do with with recurrent like this
is though before we're going to sleep at night, they'll
think about that dream and think about, you know, if
I have that dream again tonight, instead of you know,
letting myself fall, I'm gonna I'm gonna grab on, I'm
gonna i'm gonna clip you know, I'm gonna tie a
(25:15):
rope onto a post and hang on, or I'm gonna
jump over the gate, or I'm gonna, you know, think
of thinking of how you might react in the dream
and any luck.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Yeah. Well, when one I got into a brawl like
a first It started out as a wrestling and turned
into a face flight. I said, I belong here. You're
not pushing me out. You're not gonna do to me
what you did the last time. Hey, break it up,
Break it up.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Break, try to put a disguise on so you can
slip by those nasty rat You out, all right, Dan,
that's a good one. Thank you. Thanks for the call, Hope.
That helps a little bit, give you a thought to
deal with. Let me grab my let's say good night
to Glenn. Okay, and we are going to go next
(26:02):
to Rick in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. Have checked in so far, Rick,
Welcome next to On Nightstime with doctor Kelly Bulkeley.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Go right ahead, Rick, Hi, Hi, Dan, and doctor Kelly.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
How are you. Dan.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
It's been a while since I've called you.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
Well.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Not a problem you do. Don't have to go to confession.
There's no religious aspect to this church on Sunday. Don't
worry about it.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Okay, go ahead, Thank you, thank you. I have these
crazy dreams and they're so exhausting I wake up. I
feel tired from the dream. I've had these dreams where
I'm looking for something, going from one place to another,
looking and looking, and the dreams seem to last for hours,
(26:47):
and then I wake up. I feel exhausted from the dreams,
and I I just wondered what you might think about
that in search of something it can be. I don't
there's no particular item I'm searching for. It's crazy, okay, yeah,
(27:08):
well well yeah, and it just just quick like are
they in the same settings each time or is it
just every different places with that kind of searching quality
looking at an item that could be and and then
after I wake up, it's hard to remember. That's why
I can't relate your call. And I know it's it's
(27:29):
bouncing around. It seems that like it lasts for hours,
going from one place to another, and they don't make
any sense. But it's yeah, yeah, you know, I might
think of like, so, so there is something about the
brain and dreaming that this is a general way putting,
but that that we we that it activates Pickling ren
sleep what's called the orienting response, which is basically like
(27:52):
if you're thrown into a situation you've never been before,
you look around, you try to figure out what's going on,
where am I, what's what's happening? And then the ideas
that our minds create these these these you know, amazing scenarios.
From that point, it sounds like you may be in
a place where like you're just kind of orienting, just
like where am I looking trying to find? And it
(28:14):
makes me wonder if there's some maybe pre sleep relaxation practices.
You know, there's uh, you know, sort of breathing exercises,
different things people do that, something called yoga ndra that's
kind of a pre sleep spiritual practice, different ways that
might calm kind of that that that that what sounds
(28:36):
like kind of a hyper aroused orienting response. And in
the dream worlds, I am under a lot of stress
in different areas and yeah, it must even safe into
my during uh yeah, I mean having said that too,
there's always multiple dimensions to dreams. There's never just one
(28:57):
meaning and a dream in which there's sort of this
ongoing searching that can also have some spiritual overtones of
I'm looking for my path, my purpose, my my my
ultimate values. That could be part of part of what's
going on too. That sounds very possible.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, thank you very much for joining us. I think
that you've got you've got some insights that you can
work with here. So thank you. Great call.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
You're welcome. I have a good evening. Thanks.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, it's funny. Different people have really good questions here tonight.
Let me go next to Jan in Worcester back home
to Massachusetts. In Worcester, Massachusetts, Jan, what's your question? Doctor
Kelly Bulkeley, go right ahead.
Speaker 8 (29:43):
Bye Dan and doctor Bley. How are you listen? I've
got two very quick dreams, h Garry, and they haven't
quite a bit. One of them is that I'm always
in a city and I've driven my car and park it.
Then when it comes time to find that thing, i'll
never find, never find it.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I'm with it. I had that same dream, Jim. We
must have both lost our.
Speaker 8 (30:08):
Cars, right, So I walk around the city and find
strangers who are kind to me and help me to
try and give me a ride or something. And that's
kind of where it ends, just try and find the car.
The other dream is one where it's very enjoyable. I
will go in. I'll be in a house for some reason,
(30:29):
maybe gonna rent or buy, god, I don't know. An
old one usually with many many rooms, and I discover
lots of rooms and wondering what I could do with
each one of them, and room to room and more rooms,
and that comes up quite a bit too.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Hmm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Let's deal with the Let's deal with the parking one first,
because I think some people are going to have that.
I had the same situation. I know where I parked
my car. I'm in an area that I'm familiar with.
It's not like, come in a city that I've never
been before, and I know that I parked my car
in this block on that side of the street, and
(31:08):
I go there and it's not there. But I'm I
I know I parked it, but I'm not worried about
buying stolem. But I can't find it.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, yeah, well these are these are some of the
sort of day to day anxieties of living in the
modern world. And and and dreams are actually really accurate
reflections of the things that we worry about and feel,
you know, different emotional things towards towards the waking world
that that shows up in our dream. So at one level,
(31:37):
it's as simple as yeah, this is it's a big
hassle when you can't find your car in waking life,
and our dreams can can reflect that that anxieties, both
literally and metaphorically, because cars are often symbols of the self,
of our our our individuality in uh, this modern world.
(31:57):
When you're in your car, driving your you're in this
little you know, sort of metal shell and everyone else
is in their metal shells.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And so try not having a the day that it's
in the shop and you say, gee, I wanted to
go here, I wanted to go there was so wedded to.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Our yeah, yeah, very much.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
So those there's situation that has talked about.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
With the house, that's that's a that's many people find
that an enjoyable dream, and and psychologists will often interpret
that is the house symbolizing the mind, the sort of
the inner uh sort of architecture of the psyche. And
to discover new rooms is to discover new aspects of
the self. And so Carl Jung had a famous dream
(32:40):
of a house at many levels and the deeper he went,
the farther down into the unconscious he went. And uh,
so many psychologists have kind of drawn on that metaphor
as a way of thinking about how our minds sort
of are are shaped and how we you know, kind
of live within our the structure of our minds.
Speaker 8 (33:00):
Wow, thank you very much. It's very interesting.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Thank you, so thanks very much.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Have you called my show before? Is this your first time?
Speaker 8 (33:08):
I called you once?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
I believe once, you believe I.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Think like ten years ago, Jan, because I don't know, no, no.
Speaker 8 (33:19):
This may this might be the first time. I don't
know for sure.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
Why don't we do this.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Let's give Jan a round of applause because if it's
a possible first time, we always like to welcome first
time callers. We'll look forward to your next call.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Thanks, Jan, have a great night, Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
These are the nights Doctor Buckley, that a lot of
times people who listened to the show regularly decide to call.
It's interesting, it gets the telephone. We got one more
coming up. I get Laurient, Idaho, so we're gonna have Wisconsin,
Idaho and Pennsylvania for sure, and I can probably try
(33:59):
to get a couple more. Get Peggy as well. Give
us a call six one, seven, two, five, four to
ten thirty six one seven, nine, three one ten thirty.
Be right back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 9 (34:15):
By the way, at ten o'clock after the ten o'clock
News talking with former Boston, New York and Los Angeles
Police Commissioner Bill Bratton about security concerns relating to the
election of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
That'll cause you some nightmares. Let me go to Laurie,
you know in Idaho. Laurie is next here on Nightside.
Love to know, Laurie, what sort of dreams you would
like to ask my guest, doctor Kelly Bulkeley about. Go
right ahead, Laurie, my.
Speaker 6 (34:41):
Dan and doctor. Well, so I have the typical following,
you know, But then I actually learned somewhere along the
line to tell myself it wasn't gonna hurt when I fail,
And then I woke up the that's right. But I
do have airplane dreams, and this is a recurring one.
I'm on a full sized jetliner and it's got no
roof on the fuselage. For whatever reason, I don't there's
no access and whatever. I guess it's just the way
it was made.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
And so but it is it is.
Speaker 6 (35:04):
We're not above the oxygen situation because we're actually flying
through a city below skyscraper level. And it's kind of
like yours that we never went under bridges, but around
and banking and going around the skyscrapers and stuff. And
my seat is the only plane I've only seen the
plane that doesn't have a seat belt, and they're always
in vivid, vivid color.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Good luck doctor by Buckley with this one.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that sounds like a like a like
a action movie or like a like a Disney theme
park ride or something. I mean that really sounds uh
uh am, I right that it's it's physically you can
feel the the the sort of the swerve I think
you said swerving or banking again.
Speaker 6 (35:50):
Oh yeah, I'm afraid of falling out of my seat
and falling out of the plane. Everybody else's on my
seat doesn't have a seat belt, right right, Well.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
This, Laurie, why pick a seat like that? Go ahead?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Uh huh yeah yeah yeah. And you say color that
was in vivid color? Like what can you say anything
about the colors or what's what?
Speaker 5 (36:13):
Right?
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Right? Oranges?
Speaker 6 (36:14):
Greens, like the trees that we go by are brilliant green,
they're oranges. There are reds super vivid.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Yeah, yeah, well this is I mean thank you for
sharing this. It's it's it's sort of a testament to
the power of the dream imagination that you know, you're
lying there asleep in the dark, you know, eyes closed, motionless,
and yet hear your body is like you know in
the dreams, swooping around and the vivid colors like the
you know, the dreaming of mind is really an amazing thing.
And and when it goes to the trouble of creating
(36:42):
some vivid is this that that's a lot of red
to create something a dream death that vivid it it
tends to reflect something important in life. And and and
I guess I would if it were my dream. This
is the way, you know, we'd often talk about dreams.
I don't know what it means to you, but if
I had a dream like that, I would certainly think,
are there areas in my life where I have that
(37:05):
kind of feeling of a lot of potential movement, but
also a lot of constraints that I've got to find
some way to even though it seems are possible, I've
got to find some way to navigate my way through.
That may or may not relate to your sensitive but
that's what comes to mind.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Laurie. That's I hope that helps a little bit. Okay,
thanks Laura, appreciate you.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I'm gonna try to get at least one, maybe two
in here. Let me see what I can do. I'm
gonna go next to Danielle in Worcester. Danielle, you were
next on nightside. You got to give us your dream
quickly because they want to get one more as well.
Go ahead, Danielle.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
So I have a couple of you know, I always
have those dreams that the person is real, somebody that
I know, but they won't be at their house. It'll
be somebody else's house, so it's we wake up and
you can never remember what they were. So I have
those a lot, and I am guilty of not sleeping
a lot, so I don't get into rooms sleep a lot,
(38:06):
which is terrible. But the other one that really sticks
out when I was younger, when I first moved to
Worcester out of high school, I had the most vivid,
realistic dream of a place I lived with my dad,
and my mom for some reason was taking me there
to show me something. When we're in the car and
as we round the corner, she goes, look and the
(38:26):
townhouse that we lived in was just a pile of
ashes that had burnt to the ground. And I went, no,
and I get out of the car and I went
running towards the pile of ashes, and up comes my
dad and I went Dad, and I went to hug them,
and it was like the movie ghosts, you know, when
you arms go through them. And I woke up, and
I woke up like sweating piper ventialy and go. So
(38:47):
I called him my dad and now I'm nineteen years old,
and he answered the four thirty in the morning, and
you know, we had home phones back then and on
cell phones, and he of course was scared, you know,
like startled, but I told him, like, I just had
to hear your voice. And my father's theory has always
been a few dream of somebody that's donated in your
sleep that you're wishing them a healthy life, a long
(39:09):
healthy life.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Okay, listen what doctor Bulkeley says here. You you raised
a questions. Quick answer from doctor Bulkley.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Yeah, well, well, a lot of these kinds of dreams
are expressing in very dramatic form, are feelings a concern
for our loved ones. So sometimes they really can be
very dramatic. Sometimes there can be a prophetic quality too,
so I don't I don't blame me for giving your
your dad a call and just checking in on them.
That's an amazing dream. Yeah all right, yeah it was
so realistic.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
But anyway, thank you.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
That was This is really neat listening to this.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
I've always been into this kind off.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
Well this has been this has.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Been so thanks Danielle. By the way, this has been
so good. I got a bunch of people who aren't
going to be able to get in here, So to
Dana and Peggy and Gina, I apologize. I have a
guest coming up next hour, so I I did my best.
But again, this is not the sort of thing you
can move through people quickly. Next time, you got to
just call a little earlier, folks. I keep reminding people.
(40:03):
Then when you wait till the last ten or fifteen minutes,
there's no guarantees. So sorry, sorry, sorry, all big thank
you to doctor Kelly Bulkeley. This was great. You know what,
Let's let's do this again a couple of months from now,
because there were a lot of good questions and a
lot of interesting experiences, and I thought this was a
great hour. Thanks doctor Bulkeley, it exceeded my expectations.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
So great. Yeah, happy have you so they've truly been
great questions, a lot of I mean, and things we
could talk about for a long time.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Absolutely, and we'll do it again. And you had a
chance to talk to listeners in Massachusetts, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Idaho.
We do have quite a quite a reach on this
on this stage. Thanks so much, best of best of luck.
We will talk again. I'd like to have you back.
Thank you, doctor balcr.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Thank you good, appreciate it all right, thanks again.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And when we get back, we will talk with Bill Bratton,
former police commissioner, about Secure and about what's going on
in this crazy world of ours. Back after this
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