April 17, 2025 • 40 mins
We kicked off the program with four news stories and different guests on the stories we think you need to know about!
Autism Awareness Month –What the organization Autism Elevated does to transform the way society views autism, providing tools for families, and helping autistic individuals discover their strengths and find work environments where they thrive and succeed. Clain Udy – Founder of Autism Elevated & Author of Rebranding Autism: A Guide to Seeing Strength on the Spectrum joined Dan.
Keira D’Amato, marathoning’s unlikely star, leads a stacked Boston field of American women. Amin Touri (pronounced ah-Meen)– Boston Globe Sports Web producer and editor stopped by.
Beyond Fake Photos: New Report Reveals How Everyday AI Tools Can Be Taught to Steal Passwords. Etay Maor - (pronounced: EE-tai MAY-or), Chief Security Strategist of Cato Networks had the scary details.
Robert Kraft vs Bill Belichick: Who owns slogans like "No Days Off" and "Ignore the Noise"? John Rizvi – The Patent Professor checked in.
Listen to WBZ NewsRadio on the NEW iHeart Radio app and be sure to set WBZ NewsRadio as your #1 preset!
Autism Awareness Month –What the organization Autism Elevated does to transform the way society views autism, providing tools for families, and helping autistic individuals discover their strengths and find work environments where they thrive and succeed. Clain Udy – Founder of Autism Elevated & Author of Rebranding Autism: A Guide to Seeing Strength on the Spectrum joined Dan.
Keira D’Amato, marathoning’s unlikely star, leads a stacked Boston field of American women. Amin Touri (pronounced ah-Meen)– Boston Globe Sports Web producer and editor stopped by.
Beyond Fake Photos: New Report Reveals How Everyday AI Tools Can Be Taught to Steal Passwords. Etay Maor - (pronounced: EE-tai MAY-or), Chief Security Strategist of Cato Networks had the scary details.
Robert Kraft vs Bill Belichick: Who owns slogans like "No Days Off" and "Ignore the Noise"? John Rizvi – The Patent Professor checked in.
Listen to WBZ NewsRadio on the NEW iHeart Radio app and be sure to set WBZ NewsRadio as your #1 preset!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's nice size with Dan Ray. I'm going crazy Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
CALLI thanks very much, Kyle. This is Night's Eye with
Dan Ray. As we head from now until just before midnight,
Rob Brooks is back in the control room at the
Broadcast Center and in Medford, beautiful Medford, Massachusetts, and we
will begin taking your phone calls in the nine o'clock hour.
In the nine o'clock hour, we will be speaking with
(00:28):
the dean as the dean of the University of Michigan
Medical School. How about that doctor Marshall Rungey. He's written
a book called The Great Healthcare Disruption, and we will
talk with him during the nine o'clock hour, in part
talking about how difficult it is in this day and
(00:52):
age here in Massachusetts and probably elsewhere around the country
to actually secure the services of a doctor. There are
a lot of people who used to have you know,
what's called primary care physicians or family doctors, can't get
him at this point. They ad just in really scarce supply.
(01:13):
We'll also be following the Florida State University shooting today,
another on campus shooting tragedy, and then we're going to
talk at ten o'clock about President Trump's plan to try
to revoke the taxi exempt status of a bunch of universities,
including Harvard. And we'll be joined by Professor Steve Pinker,
(01:36):
who is a right of center psychology professor at Harvard.
He's also member of the Council and Academic Freedom at Harvard,
and though he's been very critical of what Harvard has
done and has not has not done, he does not
in any way, shape or form support what President Trump
is threatening. But before we get to all of that,
we're going to talk about Autism Awareness Month and three
(01:58):
other topics. My guest the first segment is Clain Oodie,
the founder of Autism Elevated and an author of Rebranding Autism,
A Guide to Seeing Strength on the Spectrum. Clain, Welcome
to Night's side.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Thank you for having me. Great to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Okay, Autism Awareness Month. I think everyone has become very
aware of autism. Right now, as I understand it, the
number of children who are being diagnosed with autism is
like one in thirty one. This is down. This is
(02:39):
more kids today than ever before in America. So the
first question, what do you think is going on? Well?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I think I'm not an expert in this field, but
I do have. I thought about it a lot for
twenty eight years. I have an adult autistic son who
is diagnosed back when the numbers were one in sixty
four and in the year two thousand. So I've been,
you know, spend my entire life thinking about this. And
(03:10):
we actually even went did some early interventions. We we
he went through kelation therapy, which is based on the
idea that autistic people it's the vaccine theory that that
rfk is is talking about. Now we went down that
rabbit hole and found the results to be inconclusive at best.
(03:35):
So we have direct experience doing that. But I think
what's what's true and the science that I've read and
trust is that is largely genetic. Autism has always been
around with us in you know, throughout human history, and
so it's not something that that's going to be cured.
(03:56):
Is there a possibility or a likelihood even that there
could be some environmental factor that is amplifying that that's
a possibility hasn't been proven yet. And you know, another
theory is that you know, you have coupling, uh genetic coupling,
(04:16):
so you have you know, two people with you know,
similar genetic makeup that predisposes them to autism, and they
have children, and so that would explain the high concentration
of of autistic people in places like Silicon Valley and
up up there, you know, around mt the places. So
Simon Baron Cohen, it's a renowned autism scientists at Cambridge
(04:41):
over their autism program there, and he's done studies in
that regard to say that's he thinks it's it's largely
due to genetic coupling. And then I think also just
the awareness has has come about the definition of diagnosis
of autism, you know, it's been refined over the years,
(05:03):
especially since we went through that in the year two thousand.
So I think and I think also Dan, that a
lot of people are kind of self identifying, you know,
they recognize that there are kind of signatures within themselves
that kind of fit the description of autism. And it's
(05:24):
no surprise because again, autism is part of the human condition.
It's part of a brain profile, a cognitive profile that
has always been around and by the way, is responsible
for most of innovation throughout human history. So an inherent
part of who we are.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, people who are autistic can be very very broad.
I also know enough about autism. I've dealt with for
many years with the New England Center for Children here
in Selfborough, Massachusetts, which is a center for families who
have children with autism. It's also people probably realize this
(06:06):
that autism there's a spectrum, and there are some people
who have Aspergers, which is I guess a form of autism,
not nearly as pronounced. I was interested when you talked
about the genetic couplings. Is there any effort being made
for individuals to find out if they have a latent
gene that that would make their offspring more or less
(06:31):
likely to be to inherit this condition.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah, I don't know if there's a genetic test. That's
that's kind of outside of my swim lane. So I'm
not sure the answer to that question. But it is
autism is a spectrum, and you know, the way, the
way I see it is if you have a pie,
you have certain you know, pieces of the pie, and
you have certain factors that that you look at that
(07:01):
are kind of signatures of autism. So for example, you
know sensory processing, language and speech, uh, you know flexibility
of routine so that you can you can sort of
look at it. Some people have bigger pieces of the
pie in the in some of those areas, and some
(07:21):
somehow smaller pieces, so they're affected less in those areas.
It's important to know that all of us have some
of this, you know, all of us like a routine,
all of us, like you know, I struggle.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
With communications, social communication more than others. So you know,
it is an inherent part of who we are as
human beings. And what I would say is, you know,
what I'm focused on is the strengths because you know,
and we received our diagnosis and largely our experience has
been around this narrative, this languguage of deficit and disorder
(08:02):
and dysfunction, and that's basically what we were focused on
as parents early on.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Those that are a little overplayed.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, they're they're totally focused on that's you know, the
dominant narrative is around the challenges.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
And so I started to with our son. I made
a very deliberate effort, my wife and I I read,
you know, for the second time, I read first Break
All the Rules and now Discovery of Strength by Marcus Buckingham.
It was for a leadership course, and from that moment
on I changed my mind entirely, and I, you know,
(08:44):
dedicated myself to finding, nurturing and developing my son's strengths
and it changed everything for for him and for us.
And then from there I started I put together program
to help young adults recognize their strengths. See you there,
(09:06):
you know, develop a strength profile and the strength identity,
and then align to create.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
This I assume is this is very much your book,
and I want to mention the book so in case
people out there, and I'm sure some people want to
get the book. The book is Rebranding Autism A Guide
to Seeing Strength on the Spectrum. Claim Udie, thank you
for being with us tonight. Thank you for explaining it
(09:31):
as clearly as you have. I understood everything that you said.
The book Rebranding Autism, a Guide to Seeing Strength on
the Spectrum. Appreciate your time. I hope your family and
your son are doing well, and I hope that as
time goes on, all of us will better appreciate and
understand these children who come along and who happen to
(09:54):
be dealing with autism and families that are dealing with autism,
and we all should be able to help them along
the path. Of life. Thank you so much for your
time tonight.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Thank you for shire it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You're very welcome. When we get back, when we talk
about the marathon and a female runner who is an unexpected,
unlikely star, I will explain this is someone you want
to keep your eye on, maybe even as the winner
of the women's race on Monday. We'll explain right after
the break.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's
News radio.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Marathon is Monday. I think everybody knows that we have
all sorts of levels and classifications. Certainly there's the wheelchair division,
and there's the para para division, as all sorts of divisions,
and people run based upon their age levels. But the big,
the big obviously races that are watched, the men's and
(10:53):
the women's race, and of course that cast of characters
changes every year. Sometimes there's a winner coming back, but
this year there's an American runner who you might want
to keep your eye out for with us as a
mean Tory Boston Globe Sports Web producer and editor. Welcome,
I mean nice to have you with us. How are
you this evening.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
I'm doing fine. Thank you, thanks for having me. I
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Oh, thanks very much for coming, for being available tonight.
I do the shows remotely, so it's not like you're
in the studio, but thank you for dropping by. I'll
put I'll use that euphemism. So you did a profile
on a runner named Kira Dematto who was described as
an unlikely star and she may, she may, she could
(11:41):
win the women's division. She was a runner in college
and then it kind of she forgot about it. I
guess tell us her story, because this is kind of
like somebody joining the Patriots at the age of thirty eight,
and it's like, what if where were they from the
last fifteen years? You know, well, they were working, you know.
(12:02):
Every once in a while you see a sports story
like this. The Red Sox had a pitcher last year,
Cam Boozer, who had retired and was a carpenter, and
then he was pitching in an independent league and he's
throwing ninety five ninety six and somebody took a look
at him and the Red Sox picked him up and
he's he's now pitching for the White Sox. But he
did pretty well with the Red Sox. That's kind of
the same story here, I think. Tell us about Kira Demato.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Yeah, I mean, Kira's god really one of the most
unique stories in marathoning. She was, you know, she was
an All American at American University. You know, she's got
a real running pedigree. Of course, she had a lot
of talent, but you know, she graduated in two thousand
and six, and she had a lot of injuries right
out of college, and she just decided to kind of
call it quits, you know, go kind of back to
(12:47):
a normal life. She got a real estate license, she
had three kids, and she kind of put running away
for six seven years. In twenty thirteen, she decided to
run her first marathon, and she ran it in three
hours and forty nine minutes, which for a lot of
folks is a pretty decent time, but is almost an
(13:07):
hour and a half slower than what the top elite
women in the world say are running these days. And
so she stopped running again for a few years. In
twenty seventeen, at the age of thirty two, she signed
her husband up for a marathon as a joke, decided
to run it herself. Ran three fourteen to qualify for Boston,
ran two forty seven a few months later to get
into the pro field, and a couple of years later,
(13:30):
thirty seven years old, she ran two hours and nineteen
minutes to become the American record holder in the in
the marathon. So it's an incredible rise to go from
in the space of four years from having run one
marathon fairly slowly to being like the best of the
fastest American women's marathon or in history. So she's had,
(13:51):
she's had some story.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
When I read your story, how did you identify her?
I mean, is this your I mean, you're a sports guy.
I'm sure you cover a little football, a little baseball,
little this, little that. How did you find this story?
This is a great story.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Yeah, yeah, Well, so I'm a runner myself. I'm you know,
I did my first marathon in the fall. I've always
been very interested into it. And Kira is at this point,
you know, she's one of the biggest stars in marathoning,
and so she's you know, she's sort of pretty pretty
famous in that world, and her story is pretty pretty
(14:29):
well known in that world. And so I saw, you know,
once she was she was coming to Boston, not for
the first time. A lot of us thought it was
the first time because the first time she raised Boston
was in twenty eighteen when she was, you know, a
two forty seven marathoner that was barely being allowed into
the pro field. And she's coming back seven years later,
as you know, the second now the second fastest American
(14:52):
woman in history. So so you know, it's I think
in the world of running, en world of marathoning, her
story is pretty special, bean, pretty famous.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Okay, here's the question. I noticed in your article that
she's been working with some coaches in Utah, but it
didn't sound as if she was from Utah. So obviously,
this is a young woman who graduates from American University
in Washington, d C. When she started out in life
as that real estate agent, whereabouts was she working? But
she working in an area where you wouldn't be doing
(15:21):
a lot of running. I guess you train in Utah
because of the mountains and the heights, and you get
you get better because you're training in tougher conditions. So
where where was she before she finally decided to take
it for real, real, really seriously and go to your Utah.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
Yeah, so, as far as I know Kira's she's from Virginia.
I know she's from the from the DC area. I
think she yeah, so she went. She went to American
University in DC. She was based in Richmond for a
long time. I think that's where she settled down after
she got married and got her license. And then I
think in this last year she had sort of a
difficult twenty twenty four. She was a big favorite to
(15:58):
make the American Olympic team in the marathon, but I
think she got hurt on the day she didn't make
the team. And I think at this point, you know,
I think she's I think she just turned forty last year.
I think she's kind of trying to make one more
big push with her career. So she moved to Utah
to work with at Eyestone, who's long the cross country
and track coach at BYU. He's the coach of Connor
(16:19):
Manson Clayton Young, who are the top two American men
in the field on Monday, both BYU grads, and so
I think she just wanted to shift to what is
a very competitive training environment with some of the best
marathoners in the world, the world renowned coach at altitude
to kind of give it, you know, give it one
last shot to run fast in these next couple of years,
(16:39):
maybe even in the next Olympic cycle, maybe try to
reclaim her American record. So I think this is you know,
this is kind of a change she made to make
sort of one last push with her career.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Great story. This is just a great story, and people
should be looking for her. Kira Demato is her name,
and I mean, this is this is a great story.
It's one of those stories. It's almost too good to
be true. I mean, you know, the marathon is that
(17:10):
they're peaked. They're not in their twenties. There's a lot
of them that hit their late twenties and thirties and
they peak out at thirty two or thirty three. So
she wasn't even involved heavily in the sport. Great story.
Thanks for sharing it with us, and hopefully this will
make Monday's marathon much more interesting, particularly because it's an
American runner and because we haven't done that well in
(17:32):
marathons in recent years, including Boston. Thanks so much for
your time. Where'd you grow up? You a Boston guy? Originally?
Speaker 5 (17:39):
Yeah, I grew up in Watertown, so so I am
so I am from here. I grew up in Watertown.
I live in Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Excellent excellent. It's good. It's good that the Globe has
some people from the area, that's for sure. You know, yeah,
Mi Peal, Dan Shaughnessy grew up in Groton, and you know,
Kevin Paul DuPont. It's great to have some local guys
really understand the sports heritage of this city is what anyway, Congratulations,
(18:06):
congratulates a great job, Boston Globe Sports web producer and editor.
We'll be back right after the news at the bottom
of the hour, and we're going to talk about something
that should be of concern to everyone going to It's
labeled beyond fake photos. A new report reveals how everyday
AI tools can be taught to steal your passwords. Just
(18:26):
another thing to worry about. Right after the break. Here
on Nightside, my name's Dan Ray is WBZ, Boston's News radio,
ten thirty am dial. We're an iHeartRadio station. Pull down
our iHeart app, put it on all your devices, and
make us your number one preset. That way, we'll always
be just a finger tip away. Back on nights Side,
right after the news.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
It's Night Side, Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
All right, we are all talking about, or at least
at different levels, we're talking about artificial intelligence, and now
we have to think about what are the implications of
artificial intelligence with us? Now is Eti Mayor. He's the
chief security strategist of CATO Networks. Apparently there's a new report,
(19:15):
Eti that reveals how everyday AI tools and many of
us don't even know what our regular AI tools can
be taught to steal our passwords. Just something else for
us to worry about. How are you this evening, Eti?
Speaker 6 (19:31):
I'm doing good. Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
You're very welcome, Thanks for coming on. So what's this
all about again? It's a little bit about my pay grade,
but I want to listen.
Speaker 6 (19:40):
And learn, Okay, so let me explain. So, we recently
released the twenty twenty five CATO Threat Report, and in
the report, we detailed how we, using our technique called
narrative engineering, convinced all the leading AI tools you know deepseeak, Open, ais, Chagipt,
Copilot to actually create software for us to steal passwords
(20:04):
from browsers. Now, for those who are unfamiliar with what
is narrative engineering, we basically convince these AI tools that
they now live in a world where creating fishing and
malware and viruses is actually a good thing. So we
actually jail broke them, remove the guardrails that prevent you
from doing bad things using these tools, and convince them
to create a software for us that can steal passwords
(20:27):
from a browser.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Who imposes the guardrails on these items? So these items exist.
I think people have some familiarity with these products that
you're talking about. But who imposes the guardrails and did
they give you permission or did you just do this
as an academic exercise to remove the guardrails?
Speaker 6 (20:51):
So great question. The guardrails are said by the companies
that manufacture these chatbots and AI tools. So Open Ai
creatept and they put the guardrails. Microsoft create copils and
they put the guardrails Deep Sick just the same. And
what we did is we did this exercise to see
if the guardrails can be removed. Of course, once we
(21:13):
saw what that meant and the implications, we reported this
back to the companies so they can improve their products
so criminals don't use this capability to create this type
of malware.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I see. So you what the service that you provide
almost is Let's say I have a factory and I
think that my factory when we walk up at night
at six o'clock at night until we reopen in the
morning at eight o'clock in the morning, is impregnable. But sometimes,
if I'm smart, I'll hire a company and I'll say, look,
(21:44):
see if you can break into my factory or break
into my jewelry store and get around work around the
electronic alarm system. It's kind of the same principle. And
if you do it, then maybe you can show me
where the flaws are in my alarm system and actually
(22:05):
make my store on my factory impregnable to thieves. This
is kind of the same principle. Yes, no, so yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
What you describe right now is exactly what's called red
teaming in the cybersecurity world, where you hire a group
of security professionals to try and break and hack your
company or your network or your product so you can
better secure it. That's not really what CATO provides. We
actually provide a solution later to secure everything. But we
did this exercise of doing this kind of red teaming
(22:34):
and finding the vulnerabilities in the AI to better understand
these tools that everybody is using. We want to understand
do they also bring in any risk with them, and
how could potentially bad people use this?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Well, I say this, thank God that you folks are
around doing this, because if you're not, these tools will
be out there and available. And you know, with every
breakthrough there comes i think a potential risk and a
potential cost. And you know, God bless you for what
(23:10):
you're doing there. What was the reaction of these companies
you mentioned. Was it Meta was one of them? Or
is Meta not involved in this?
Speaker 6 (23:20):
No, Meta was not involved in this one, but it
was Deep sick, Microsoft and open Ai, and we reported
this back to them. I can tell you that we
didn't really get a response from Deep Sick Microsoft. Microsoft
actually acknowledged it and said that they're going to fix it.
But I think what you mentioned is one of the
(23:41):
most important things here, and that is with every new
technology and every new tool that we bring into our
personal life or into our work, we're bringing in some
sort of risk with it as well. And it's very
important that we understand these risks and be able to
find them before you know, things get a little bit
of had Who.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Is the company that didn't respond to your overture?
Speaker 6 (24:06):
Oh there was a deep stick. That's the Chinese manufacturer
of the new AI tool.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I'm flabbergaster they didn't respond. I mean, you know, I
think that that they have from what I read, that
they have mal intentions. They're the ones also who have
caused the problem with TikTok, if I'm not mistaken, the
Chinese government companies that are owned and allowed by the
(24:35):
Chinese Communist Party, and they obviously are using TikTok to
potential mind all sorts of information on Americans. This is
really complicated, and it reminds me they used to be
a magazine when I was a young kid called Spy
Versus Spy. It was a comic book, but I think
Spy versus Spy is now today real spy versus real spy.
(25:00):
They probably appreciate that you told them that you were
able to, you know, take the guard rails off, but
they probably were not happy to return any appreciative congratulations
to you on that one. Did you expect they would
play nice and cooperate or are you not surprised that
(25:21):
when the phone didn't ring, you know it was them?
Speaker 6 (25:24):
So to be honest, changing and retraining these AI models
is not an easy task, and if you're not really
big on security and it's maybe not your number one
priority or it becomes a very hard to have to perform.
Then some companies would just would revert back to saying,
you know what, that's kind of out of our scope.
(25:44):
That's not what we do with our red teaming. We
really don't want to deal with this at this point.
So you know, when we submit this kind of disclosure
to companies, we do it with the good faith of hey,
here's what we found. We suggest you secure it so
it doesn't happen, and then it's really really up to
them to take it from that point on. But also
(26:05):
it's up to us as consumers and as businesses to
know that these vulnerabilities and these capabilities exist on these
different tools, because not only are we using them on
a daily basis, we're going to get very close to
the point now that we're almost dependent on them, no.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Question, no question about that. So EATI I don't want
to ask you what you use for security, but all
of us have bank accounts, all of us now have
you know, personal passwords and all of that is there
any way? I mean, obviously you're back in the bad
(26:42):
old days. But when we didn't have alarms in your
house or all of that. No one can ever assure
you that someone won't break into your house. Is there
any company out there that can assure my listeners, or
can assure you, or can assure me that they can
provide complete, absolute guaranteed security so that you know that
(27:06):
your passwords won't be stolen, your bank accounts won't be attacked.
Or is that just impossible to even contemplate?
Speaker 6 (27:16):
So if there was such a product or capability, I
tried to invent it, and I'd probably do this interview
from an island that I bought in the Caribbean and
not from the cold weather here in Boston. But there
are things joking aside, there are things everybody and anybody
can do to at least raise the bar and not
(27:36):
be the lowest hanging fruits for thread actors. So if
we're talking about passwords, for example, because in this example
in our report we showed how you can create a
software that stills password from browser, I think everybody needs
to be aware that this is out there and kind
of remind everybody. Here are three quick tips for secure
in your password.
Speaker 7 (27:55):
Right.
Speaker 6 (27:55):
Number one is never use your password on multiple websites
password because if it gets stolen from one, then the
attackers can use it on any other website. Okay, number
tip number two always use two factor authentication. I know
that it's sometimes annoying to set up those one time
password and get the semesters an email, but that definitely
will make sure that you are not the lowest hanging
(28:17):
fruit for the thread actors who are trying to do
passwords and identity. And number three is to remember to
periodically change your password. Even if you have a very
strong password, don't give the attackers the opportunity to obtain
it and log in on your behalf. Make sure that
you change it periodically.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Oh great, great suggestions, Thank you very much, love to
have you back. You've been a great guest. ETI mayor
give us the address of your company. I don't know
that this is going to generate any business for you,
but how can they get in touch with Kto Networks
if they if they'd like to, you know, talk to
you and maybe do a little business.
Speaker 6 (28:53):
So you can go on our website katonetwork dot com.
In fact, you can go on Kato networks dot com
slash report to free download the report that we discussed.
We also have a bunch of blogs and reports, also
some videos and masterclasses that we created that really train
everyone on the different threats and threat actors and the
threat landscape that is out there. So it's all available
(29:15):
free on on our website kid on Networks dot.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Com eat, I may or thank you very much for
your time tonight. Maybe we'll have you back in the
not too distant future and talk about the newest development,
which I'm sure someone's working on tonight.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
Thanks thanks for having me, You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
We get back. There's a bit of a squabble. I
don't know if I could call it a fight, but
there's a squabble going between or going on between Bob
Kraft and Bill Belichick. Who would have thunk We'll be
back and we'll explain with the patent Professor John Risby.
He's been a guest before. He's a great guest, coming
right back.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
All right, well, we have had this guest whom about
to introduce to you before. He's a great guest. His
name is John Risby, called him the patent professor. Professor Risby, Risby,
welcome back to NIGHTSID. How are you?
Speaker 7 (30:10):
Yeah? Good? It's always a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Thank you well, thanks for thank you very much. We
picked up on this story this morning which was I
thought quite interesting, and that is that, uh, Bill Belichick
and Bob Kraft, who I don't think are the best
of friends, look like they might be heading to some
(30:33):
sort of a trademark battle, I believe it or not
over some of the slogans that I think Belichick feels
he coined and that maybe his new lady friend feels
Bill Kraft or Bob Kraft, uh proloined. What's going on?
Speaker 8 (30:54):
Yeah, so, uh, And the strategy is somewhat unusual and
I don't have there's really not much precedent for it
in trademark law.
Speaker 7 (31:06):
Although and I'll tell you what the strategy is that.
Speaker 8 (31:08):
In these filings they're using the exact same trademark that
the England Patriots have under you know, Bob Kraft as
except putting Bill's version at the end of them. And
this is I think misdirected and misguided. It's the closest
(31:29):
analogy that I can think of is that recently Taylor
Swift had filed copyrights for all of her original songs
in her version, but that's completely different. That's we're talking
about copyright law, which is different than trademark law, and
the difference there.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Copy you know, just to simplify if my audience, copyright
basically talks about really creative stuff like someone who writes
a novel, music, Taylor Swift, a movie, photographs. You go
somewhere and you shoot somewhere in the wild and you
get these great photographs of mountains and uh and and
grizzly bears and and and you you copyright them, or
(32:10):
or paintings. Trademarks, it's it's intellectual property, but it's it's
a word or it's a phrase, it's a symbol or
a design. And I guess Belichick is saying, Hey, I
was the one that I use the word coined these phrases.
And I think that's what he's arguing, that that he
(32:31):
coined these phrases such as you know, no day off
or you know some some of the things that that
we associate with with Belichick correct.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
Yeah, by do your job or ignore the noise, these
are all uh, he may have coined them. But trademark law,
I mean, the law does not protect the person that
coins a phrase. There's no copyright protection for short phrases.
Speaker 7 (32:57):
Now, if you're the first.
Speaker 8 (32:58):
To file, then you've got a decent claim.
Speaker 7 (33:01):
But that he's not the first to.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
File, so Bobcraft beat him to beat him to the
to the filing.
Speaker 8 (33:10):
He exactly, so you have to file first under copyright law,
and he beat him to the filing, and then you
have to It's not enough just to reserve a slogan
or a name. It's not like domain names where you
register a domain name and you own it. Trademark law
requires use so that there they have to be used
in commerce, and you can't just apply for it.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
And hold it. I don't know if there's been any use.
They do have.
Speaker 8 (33:37):
There's a period of time where you can apply for
an intent to use trademark.
Speaker 7 (33:42):
But if you're not first, the trademark.
Speaker 8 (33:45):
Office is going to do a search and find conflicting marks.
And if somebody has superior rights and has filed earlier,
and they believe consumers are going to be confused, then
absolutely the person that is second to file that trademark
likely will and should be rejected, is under a likelihood
(34:08):
of confusion rejection, which is basically that consumers are going
to be confused. And I think simply putting Bill's version
at the end of a trademark phrase is not enough
to prevent confusion any any different than if meet John
Rizzby or the patent professor would start selling Coca Cola
products and in parentheses put John Risby's version or the
(34:32):
patent professor version. That's not enough to prevent confusion.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So let me get the professor to explain this. So
Belichick is going to say, hey, I used to tell
the team for years and years and years there are
no days off, no days off. We work hard every day,
no days off, football training camp to the Super Bowl,
no days off. That's going to be his argument. In
the meantime, if I'm understanding you, Bob Craft thought, oh,
(34:57):
that's a pretty good phrase. Bob Craft went and trademarked
that phrase and associated with his ownership of the Patriots.
Speaker 7 (35:05):
Correct exactly, and the selling of goods services.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
So okay, So now, what what about? What about if
Craft makes the argument, Look, when when Belichick claims to
have come up with this phrase, he was an employee
of my company, and therefore that phrase that he created,
he created it in the context and in the course
(35:30):
of his employment and I, as his employer, have a
right to ownership of that phrase. Does that argument on
behalf of craft have have some some some impact.
Speaker 8 (35:42):
Yeah, so gosh, that is an interesting argument. It Typically
it requires support from an employment agreement, and it applies.
I've never seen it apply to trademarks. Typically it's for
patents and copyrights, so those that are produced in the
course of employment. But that's that's by an employment agreements.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
But this wasn't. What I'm saying is there aren't too
many people who have a higher profile than an NFL
head coach who's sitting in front of the media, you know,
three or four times a week or maybe more often,
certainly after every game. And Belichick did have these phrases,
every New England Patriot fan would know that they they
began with him. I don't think Bob Kraft would have
(36:32):
said to Belichick, Hey, after the game tomorrow, just when
we win, you know, tell tell everybody that you've been
telling the players. Now you know my phrase, no days off.
It's so sort of thing they're prone to. Belichick created
it spontaneously. I don't think he had any intention to
come up with his phrase and then slap it on
sweatshirts and sell no days off sweatshirts. I just think
(36:55):
it might be a case that's a first impression or
my way off the page.
Speaker 8 (37:01):
Well, there's certainly there's no precedent. So you're right in
the sense that it's an argument that can be made
to the extent that they will try to show that
there's some similarity between what Taylor Swift did.
Speaker 7 (37:15):
That's copyright law, but.
Speaker 8 (37:16):
There's also a huge difference in that, like she never
gave up rights to the original songwriting rights, the lyrics,
the melody, those are always owned by her and owned
in terms of actual copyrights. But in this case, you
don't have Build does not have any intellectual property rights
(37:39):
to the slogans and the saying, despite the fact that yes,
he said them first, he made them famous, and he
is known for those. But the law does not provide
any protection for short.
Speaker 7 (37:54):
Slogans or sayings. There's just no protection for that.
Speaker 8 (37:57):
If you power trademarkers start selling goods or service, is
that's how you get trademark rights.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Okay, well, okay, so so Bill might be left out
in the cold here. It seems a little unfair, but
the law sometimes is unfair. Professor Rusby is always you've
clarified things very nicely for us. Thanks so much for
your time on this Thursday night. And I assume you're
not a Patriots fan. You're probably I know you're in Florida,
(38:23):
so you're probably a Dolphins fan. But if there is,
if there's some player down there or some coach that
comes up with a real catchy phrase, they should get
in touch with you and make sure that they cover
themselves legally before before the phrase that they create gets
out into the into the ether and someone else steals it.
Speaker 8 (38:42):
Yere, they need to they need to file as soon
as possible because trademark rights are either first to use
or first to file. And youth means commercial youth selling
goods their services.
Speaker 7 (38:55):
And had Bill actually done that other than.
Speaker 9 (39:00):
You know, not just say that the saying yeah, but
I sard me, I sympathize, and I agree with what
you're saying about it doesn't seem fair.
Speaker 8 (39:11):
Unfortunately, as you pointed out a lot of times, that
law is not seen as fair, uh, and that trademark
law is not on his side.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, you could tell that to every guy who's every
guy or a woman who's locked up in prison. None
of them did the crime trademark, copyright, patent or domain names.
You got to be really know this stuff, and John
Risby does. Professor Risby, thank you so much. We'll talk again.
Speaker 7 (39:36):
Okay, thank you always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
You're welcome. All right, we get back from the nine
o'clock News. We're going to talk about a very serious
problem and I think many of you can identify with,
and that is have you tried to change doctors? So
you have a doctor who retired and have you been
able to get a doctor here in New England are
anywhere in the country. We'll talk with the Dean of
the University of Michigan Medical School about that very problem
(40:01):
and why we do not have enough doctors in this country,
the most advanced country in the world. It's a problem.
We'll talk about that in changing medical terrain and environment
and how it's going to affect all of us. This
will be a great guest. We had him with us
briefly a couple of weeks ago, and I'm so delighted
he'll join us and take your calls tonight back on
(40:23):
Night Side. Right after this
It's nice size with Dan Ray. I'm going crazy Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
CALLI thanks very much, Kyle. This is Night's Eye with
Dan Ray. As we head from now until just before midnight,
Rob Brooks is back in the control room at the
Broadcast Center and in Medford, beautiful Medford, Massachusetts, and we
will begin taking your phone calls in the nine o'clock hour.
In the nine o'clock hour, we will be speaking with
(00:28):
the dean as the dean of the University of Michigan
Medical School. How about that doctor Marshall Rungey. He's written
a book called The Great Healthcare Disruption, and we will
talk with him during the nine o'clock hour, in part
talking about how difficult it is in this day and
(00:52):
age here in Massachusetts and probably elsewhere around the country
to actually secure the services of a doctor. There are
a lot of people who used to have you know,
what's called primary care physicians or family doctors, can't get
him at this point. They ad just in really scarce supply.
(01:13):
We'll also be following the Florida State University shooting today,
another on campus shooting tragedy, and then we're going to
talk at ten o'clock about President Trump's plan to try
to revoke the taxi exempt status of a bunch of universities,
including Harvard. And we'll be joined by Professor Steve Pinker,
(01:36):
who is a right of center psychology professor at Harvard.
He's also member of the Council and Academic Freedom at Harvard,
and though he's been very critical of what Harvard has
done and has not has not done, he does not
in any way, shape or form support what President Trump
is threatening. But before we get to all of that,
we're going to talk about Autism Awareness Month and three
(01:58):
other topics. My guest the first segment is Clain Oodie,
the founder of Autism Elevated and an author of Rebranding Autism,
A Guide to Seeing Strength on the Spectrum. Clain, Welcome
to Night's side.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Thank you for having me. Great to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Okay, Autism Awareness Month. I think everyone has become very
aware of autism. Right now, as I understand it, the
number of children who are being diagnosed with autism is
like one in thirty one. This is down. This is
(02:39):
more kids today than ever before in America. So the
first question, what do you think is going on? Well?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I think I'm not an expert in this field, but
I do have. I thought about it a lot for
twenty eight years. I have an adult autistic son who
is diagnosed back when the numbers were one in sixty
four and in the year two thousand. So I've been,
you know, spend my entire life thinking about this. And
(03:10):
we actually even went did some early interventions. We we
he went through kelation therapy, which is based on the
idea that autistic people it's the vaccine theory that that
rfk is is talking about. Now we went down that
rabbit hole and found the results to be inconclusive at best.
(03:35):
So we have direct experience doing that. But I think
what's what's true and the science that I've read and
trust is that is largely genetic. Autism has always been
around with us in you know, throughout human history, and
so it's not something that that's going to be cured.
(03:56):
Is there a possibility or a likelihood even that there
could be some environmental factor that is amplifying that that's
a possibility hasn't been proven yet. And you know, another
theory is that you know, you have coupling, uh genetic coupling,
(04:16):
so you have you know, two people with you know,
similar genetic makeup that predisposes them to autism, and they
have children, and so that would explain the high concentration
of of autistic people in places like Silicon Valley and
up up there, you know, around mt the places. So
Simon Baron Cohen, it's a renowned autism scientists at Cambridge
(04:41):
over their autism program there, and he's done studies in
that regard to say that's he thinks it's it's largely
due to genetic coupling. And then I think also just
the awareness has has come about the definition of diagnosis
of autism, you know, it's been refined over the years,
(05:03):
especially since we went through that in the year two thousand.
So I think and I think also Dan, that a
lot of people are kind of self identifying, you know,
they recognize that there are kind of signatures within themselves
that kind of fit the description of autism. And it's
(05:24):
no surprise because again, autism is part of the human condition.
It's part of a brain profile, a cognitive profile that
has always been around and by the way, is responsible
for most of innovation throughout human history. So an inherent
part of who we are.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, people who are autistic can be very very broad.
I also know enough about autism. I've dealt with for
many years with the New England Center for Children here
in Selfborough, Massachusetts, which is a center for families who
have children with autism. It's also people probably realize this
(06:06):
that autism there's a spectrum, and there are some people
who have Aspergers, which is I guess a form of autism,
not nearly as pronounced. I was interested when you talked
about the genetic couplings. Is there any effort being made
for individuals to find out if they have a latent
gene that that would make their offspring more or less
(06:31):
likely to be to inherit this condition.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah, I don't know if there's a genetic test. That's
that's kind of outside of my swim lane. So I'm
not sure the answer to that question. But it is
autism is a spectrum, and you know, the way, the
way I see it is if you have a pie,
you have certain you know, pieces of the pie, and
you have certain factors that that you look at that
(07:01):
are kind of signatures of autism. So for example, you
know sensory processing, language and speech, uh, you know flexibility
of routine so that you can you can sort of
look at it. Some people have bigger pieces of the
pie in the in some of those areas, and some
(07:21):
somehow smaller pieces, so they're affected less in those areas.
It's important to know that all of us have some
of this, you know, all of us like a routine,
all of us, like you know, I struggle.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
With communications, social communication more than others. So you know,
it is an inherent part of who we are as
human beings. And what I would say is, you know,
what I'm focused on is the strengths because you know,
and we received our diagnosis and largely our experience has
been around this narrative, this languguage of deficit and disorder
(08:02):
and dysfunction, and that's basically what we were focused on
as parents early on.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Those that are a little overplayed.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, they're they're totally focused on that's you know, the
dominant narrative is around the challenges.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
And so I started to with our son. I made
a very deliberate effort, my wife and I I read,
you know, for the second time, I read first Break
All the Rules and now Discovery of Strength by Marcus Buckingham.
It was for a leadership course, and from that moment
on I changed my mind entirely, and I, you know,
(08:44):
dedicated myself to finding, nurturing and developing my son's strengths
and it changed everything for for him and for us.
And then from there I started I put together program
to help young adults recognize their strengths. See you there,
(09:06):
you know, develop a strength profile and the strength identity,
and then align to create.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
This I assume is this is very much your book,
and I want to mention the book so in case
people out there, and I'm sure some people want to
get the book. The book is Rebranding Autism A Guide
to Seeing Strength on the Spectrum. Claim Udie, thank you
for being with us tonight. Thank you for explaining it
(09:31):
as clearly as you have. I understood everything that you said.
The book Rebranding Autism, a Guide to Seeing Strength on
the Spectrum. Appreciate your time. I hope your family and
your son are doing well, and I hope that as
time goes on, all of us will better appreciate and
understand these children who come along and who happen to
(09:54):
be dealing with autism and families that are dealing with autism,
and we all should be able to help them along
the path. Of life. Thank you so much for your
time tonight.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Thank you for shire it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You're very welcome. When we get back, when we talk
about the marathon and a female runner who is an unexpected,
unlikely star, I will explain this is someone you want
to keep your eye on, maybe even as the winner
of the women's race on Monday. We'll explain right after
the break.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's
News radio.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Marathon is Monday. I think everybody knows that we have
all sorts of levels and classifications. Certainly there's the wheelchair division,
and there's the para para division, as all sorts of divisions,
and people run based upon their age levels. But the big,
the big obviously races that are watched, the men's and
(10:53):
the women's race, and of course that cast of characters
changes every year. Sometimes there's a winner coming back, but
this year there's an American runner who you might want
to keep your eye out for with us as a
mean Tory Boston Globe Sports Web producer and editor. Welcome,
I mean nice to have you with us. How are
you this evening.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
I'm doing fine. Thank you, thanks for having me. I
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Oh, thanks very much for coming, for being available tonight.
I do the shows remotely, so it's not like you're
in the studio, but thank you for dropping by. I'll
put I'll use that euphemism. So you did a profile
on a runner named Kira Dematto who was described as
an unlikely star and she may, she may, she could
(11:41):
win the women's division. She was a runner in college
and then it kind of she forgot about it. I
guess tell us her story, because this is kind of
like somebody joining the Patriots at the age of thirty eight,
and it's like, what if where were they from the
last fifteen years? You know, well, they were working, you know.
(12:02):
Every once in a while you see a sports story
like this. The Red Sox had a pitcher last year,
Cam Boozer, who had retired and was a carpenter, and
then he was pitching in an independent league and he's
throwing ninety five ninety six and somebody took a look
at him and the Red Sox picked him up and
he's he's now pitching for the White Sox. But he
did pretty well with the Red Sox. That's kind of
the same story here, I think. Tell us about Kira Demato.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Yeah, I mean, Kira's god really one of the most
unique stories in marathoning. She was, you know, she was
an All American at American University. You know, she's got
a real running pedigree. Of course, she had a lot
of talent, but you know, she graduated in two thousand
and six, and she had a lot of injuries right
out of college, and she just decided to kind of
call it quits, you know, go kind of back to
(12:47):
a normal life. She got a real estate license, she
had three kids, and she kind of put running away
for six seven years. In twenty thirteen, she decided to
run her first marathon, and she ran it in three
hours and forty nine minutes, which for a lot of
folks is a pretty decent time, but is almost an
(13:07):
hour and a half slower than what the top elite
women in the world say are running these days. And
so she stopped running again for a few years. In
twenty seventeen, at the age of thirty two, she signed
her husband up for a marathon as a joke, decided
to run it herself. Ran three fourteen to qualify for Boston,
ran two forty seven a few months later to get
into the pro field, and a couple of years later,
(13:30):
thirty seven years old, she ran two hours and nineteen
minutes to become the American record holder in the in
the marathon. So it's an incredible rise to go from
in the space of four years from having run one
marathon fairly slowly to being like the best of the
fastest American women's marathon or in history. So she's had,
(13:51):
she's had some story.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
When I read your story, how did you identify her?
I mean, is this your I mean, you're a sports guy.
I'm sure you cover a little football, a little baseball,
little this, little that. How did you find this story?
This is a great story.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Yeah, yeah, Well, so I'm a runner myself. I'm you know,
I did my first marathon in the fall. I've always
been very interested into it. And Kira is at this point,
you know, she's one of the biggest stars in marathoning,
and so she's you know, she's sort of pretty pretty
famous in that world, and her story is pretty pretty
(14:29):
well known in that world. And so I saw, you know,
once she was she was coming to Boston, not for
the first time. A lot of us thought it was
the first time because the first time she raised Boston
was in twenty eighteen when she was, you know, a
two forty seven marathoner that was barely being allowed into
the pro field. And she's coming back seven years later,
as you know, the second now the second fastest American
(14:52):
woman in history. So so you know, it's I think
in the world of running, en world of marathoning, her
story is pretty special, bean, pretty famous.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Okay, here's the question. I noticed in your article that
she's been working with some coaches in Utah, but it
didn't sound as if she was from Utah. So obviously,
this is a young woman who graduates from American University
in Washington, d C. When she started out in life
as that real estate agent, whereabouts was she working? But
she working in an area where you wouldn't be doing
(15:21):
a lot of running. I guess you train in Utah
because of the mountains and the heights, and you get
you get better because you're training in tougher conditions. So
where where was she before she finally decided to take
it for real, real, really seriously and go to your Utah.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
Yeah, so, as far as I know Kira's she's from Virginia.
I know she's from the from the DC area. I
think she yeah, so she went. She went to American
University in DC. She was based in Richmond for a
long time. I think that's where she settled down after
she got married and got her license. And then I
think in this last year she had sort of a
difficult twenty twenty four. She was a big favorite to
(15:58):
make the American Olympic team in the marathon, but I
think she got hurt on the day she didn't make
the team. And I think at this point, you know,
I think she's I think she just turned forty last year.
I think she's kind of trying to make one more
big push with her career. So she moved to Utah
to work with at Eyestone, who's long the cross country
and track coach at BYU. He's the coach of Connor
(16:19):
Manson Clayton Young, who are the top two American men
in the field on Monday, both BYU grads, and so
I think she just wanted to shift to what is
a very competitive training environment with some of the best
marathoners in the world, the world renowned coach at altitude
to kind of give it, you know, give it one
last shot to run fast in these next couple of years,
(16:39):
maybe even in the next Olympic cycle, maybe try to
reclaim her American record. So I think this is you know,
this is kind of a change she made to make
sort of one last push with her career.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Great story. This is just a great story, and people
should be looking for her. Kira Demato is her name,
and I mean, this is this is a great story.
It's one of those stories. It's almost too good to
be true. I mean, you know, the marathon is that
(17:10):
they're peaked. They're not in their twenties. There's a lot
of them that hit their late twenties and thirties and
they peak out at thirty two or thirty three. So
she wasn't even involved heavily in the sport. Great story.
Thanks for sharing it with us, and hopefully this will
make Monday's marathon much more interesting, particularly because it's an
American runner and because we haven't done that well in
(17:32):
marathons in recent years, including Boston. Thanks so much for
your time. Where'd you grow up? You a Boston guy? Originally?
Speaker 5 (17:39):
Yeah, I grew up in Watertown, so so I am
so I am from here. I grew up in Watertown.
I live in Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Excellent excellent. It's good. It's good that the Globe has
some people from the area, that's for sure. You know, yeah,
Mi Peal, Dan Shaughnessy grew up in Groton, and you know,
Kevin Paul DuPont. It's great to have some local guys
really understand the sports heritage of this city is what anyway, Congratulations,
(18:06):
congratulates a great job, Boston Globe Sports web producer and editor.
We'll be back right after the news at the bottom
of the hour, and we're going to talk about something
that should be of concern to everyone going to It's
labeled beyond fake photos. A new report reveals how everyday
AI tools can be taught to steal your passwords. Just
(18:26):
another thing to worry about. Right after the break. Here
on Nightside, my name's Dan Ray is WBZ, Boston's News radio,
ten thirty am dial. We're an iHeartRadio station. Pull down
our iHeart app, put it on all your devices, and
make us your number one preset. That way, we'll always
be just a finger tip away. Back on nights Side,
right after the news.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
It's Night Side, Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
All right, we are all talking about, or at least
at different levels, we're talking about artificial intelligence, and now
we have to think about what are the implications of
artificial intelligence with us? Now is Eti Mayor. He's the
chief security strategist of CATO Networks. Apparently there's a new report,
(19:15):
Eti that reveals how everyday AI tools and many of
us don't even know what our regular AI tools can
be taught to steal our passwords. Just something else for
us to worry about. How are you this evening, Eti?
Speaker 6 (19:31):
I'm doing good. Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
You're very welcome, Thanks for coming on. So what's this
all about again? It's a little bit about my pay grade,
but I want to listen.
Speaker 6 (19:40):
And learn, Okay, so let me explain. So, we recently
released the twenty twenty five CATO Threat Report, and in
the report, we detailed how we, using our technique called
narrative engineering, convinced all the leading AI tools you know deepseeak, Open, ais, Chagipt,
Copilot to actually create software for us to steal passwords
(20:04):
from browsers. Now, for those who are unfamiliar with what
is narrative engineering, we basically convince these AI tools that
they now live in a world where creating fishing and
malware and viruses is actually a good thing. So we
actually jail broke them, remove the guardrails that prevent you
from doing bad things using these tools, and convince them
to create a software for us that can steal passwords
(20:27):
from a browser.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Who imposes the guardrails on these items? So these items exist.
I think people have some familiarity with these products that
you're talking about. But who imposes the guardrails and did
they give you permission or did you just do this
as an academic exercise to remove the guardrails?
Speaker 6 (20:51):
So great question. The guardrails are said by the companies
that manufacture these chatbots and AI tools. So Open Ai
creatept and they put the guardrails. Microsoft create copils and
they put the guardrails Deep Sick just the same. And
what we did is we did this exercise to see
if the guardrails can be removed. Of course, once we
(21:13):
saw what that meant and the implications, we reported this
back to the companies so they can improve their products
so criminals don't use this capability to create this type
of malware.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I see. So you what the service that you provide
almost is Let's say I have a factory and I
think that my factory when we walk up at night
at six o'clock at night until we reopen in the
morning at eight o'clock in the morning, is impregnable. But sometimes,
if I'm smart, I'll hire a company and I'll say, look,
(21:44):
see if you can break into my factory or break
into my jewelry store and get around work around the
electronic alarm system. It's kind of the same principle. And
if you do it, then maybe you can show me
where the flaws are in my alarm system and actually
(22:05):
make my store on my factory impregnable to thieves. This
is kind of the same principle. Yes, no, so yeah.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
What you describe right now is exactly what's called red
teaming in the cybersecurity world, where you hire a group
of security professionals to try and break and hack your
company or your network or your product so you can
better secure it. That's not really what CATO provides. We
actually provide a solution later to secure everything. But we
did this exercise of doing this kind of red teaming
(22:34):
and finding the vulnerabilities in the AI to better understand
these tools that everybody is using. We want to understand
do they also bring in any risk with them, and
how could potentially bad people use this?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Well, I say this, thank God that you folks are
around doing this, because if you're not, these tools will
be out there and available. And you know, with every
breakthrough there comes i think a potential risk and a
potential cost. And you know, God bless you for what
(23:10):
you're doing there. What was the reaction of these companies
you mentioned. Was it Meta was one of them? Or
is Meta not involved in this?
Speaker 6 (23:20):
No, Meta was not involved in this one, but it
was Deep sick, Microsoft and open Ai, and we reported
this back to them. I can tell you that we
didn't really get a response from Deep Sick Microsoft. Microsoft
actually acknowledged it and said that they're going to fix it.
But I think what you mentioned is one of the
(23:41):
most important things here, and that is with every new
technology and every new tool that we bring into our
personal life or into our work, we're bringing in some
sort of risk with it as well. And it's very
important that we understand these risks and be able to
find them before you know, things get a little bit
of had Who.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Is the company that didn't respond to your overture?
Speaker 6 (24:06):
Oh there was a deep stick. That's the Chinese manufacturer
of the new AI tool.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I'm flabbergaster they didn't respond. I mean, you know, I
think that that they have from what I read, that
they have mal intentions. They're the ones also who have
caused the problem with TikTok, if I'm not mistaken, the
Chinese government companies that are owned and allowed by the
(24:35):
Chinese Communist Party, and they obviously are using TikTok to
potential mind all sorts of information on Americans. This is
really complicated, and it reminds me they used to be
a magazine when I was a young kid called Spy
Versus Spy. It was a comic book, but I think
Spy versus Spy is now today real spy versus real spy.
(25:00):
They probably appreciate that you told them that you were
able to, you know, take the guard rails off, but
they probably were not happy to return any appreciative congratulations
to you on that one. Did you expect they would
play nice and cooperate or are you not surprised that
(25:21):
when the phone didn't ring, you know it was them?
Speaker 6 (25:24):
So to be honest, changing and retraining these AI models
is not an easy task, and if you're not really
big on security and it's maybe not your number one
priority or it becomes a very hard to have to perform.
Then some companies would just would revert back to saying,
you know what, that's kind of out of our scope.
(25:44):
That's not what we do with our red teaming. We
really don't want to deal with this at this point.
So you know, when we submit this kind of disclosure
to companies, we do it with the good faith of hey,
here's what we found. We suggest you secure it so
it doesn't happen, and then it's really really up to
them to take it from that point on. But also
(26:05):
it's up to us as consumers and as businesses to
know that these vulnerabilities and these capabilities exist on these
different tools, because not only are we using them on
a daily basis, we're going to get very close to
the point now that we're almost dependent on them, no.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Question, no question about that. So EATI I don't want
to ask you what you use for security, but all
of us have bank accounts, all of us now have
you know, personal passwords and all of that is there
any way? I mean, obviously you're back in the bad
(26:42):
old days. But when we didn't have alarms in your
house or all of that. No one can ever assure
you that someone won't break into your house. Is there
any company out there that can assure my listeners, or
can assure you, or can assure me that they can
provide complete, absolute guaranteed security so that you know that
(27:06):
your passwords won't be stolen, your bank accounts won't be attacked.
Or is that just impossible to even contemplate?
Speaker 6 (27:16):
So if there was such a product or capability, I
tried to invent it, and I'd probably do this interview
from an island that I bought in the Caribbean and
not from the cold weather here in Boston. But there
are things joking aside, there are things everybody and anybody
can do to at least raise the bar and not
(27:36):
be the lowest hanging fruits for thread actors. So if
we're talking about passwords, for example, because in this example
in our report we showed how you can create a
software that stills password from browser, I think everybody needs
to be aware that this is out there and kind
of remind everybody. Here are three quick tips for secure
in your password.
Speaker 7 (27:55):
Right.
Speaker 6 (27:55):
Number one is never use your password on multiple websites
password because if it gets stolen from one, then the
attackers can use it on any other website. Okay, number
tip number two always use two factor authentication. I know
that it's sometimes annoying to set up those one time
password and get the semesters an email, but that definitely
will make sure that you are not the lowest hanging
(28:17):
fruit for the thread actors who are trying to do
passwords and identity. And number three is to remember to
periodically change your password. Even if you have a very
strong password, don't give the attackers the opportunity to obtain
it and log in on your behalf. Make sure that
you change it periodically.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Oh great, great suggestions, Thank you very much, love to
have you back. You've been a great guest. ETI mayor
give us the address of your company. I don't know
that this is going to generate any business for you,
but how can they get in touch with Kto Networks
if they if they'd like to, you know, talk to
you and maybe do a little business.
Speaker 6 (28:53):
So you can go on our website katonetwork dot com.
In fact, you can go on Kato networks dot com
slash report to free download the report that we discussed.
We also have a bunch of blogs and reports, also
some videos and masterclasses that we created that really train
everyone on the different threats and threat actors and the
threat landscape that is out there. So it's all available
(29:15):
free on on our website kid on Networks dot.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Com eat, I may or thank you very much for
your time tonight. Maybe we'll have you back in the
not too distant future and talk about the newest development,
which I'm sure someone's working on tonight.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
Thanks thanks for having me, You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
We get back. There's a bit of a squabble. I
don't know if I could call it a fight, but
there's a squabble going between or going on between Bob
Kraft and Bill Belichick. Who would have thunk We'll be
back and we'll explain with the patent Professor John Risby.
He's been a guest before. He's a great guest, coming
right back.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
All right, well, we have had this guest whom about
to introduce to you before. He's a great guest. His
name is John Risby, called him the patent professor. Professor Risby, Risby,
welcome back to NIGHTSID. How are you?
Speaker 7 (30:10):
Yeah? Good? It's always a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Thank you well, thanks for thank you very much. We
picked up on this story this morning which was I
thought quite interesting, and that is that, uh, Bill Belichick
and Bob Kraft, who I don't think are the best
of friends, look like they might be heading to some
(30:33):
sort of a trademark battle, I believe it or not
over some of the slogans that I think Belichick feels
he coined and that maybe his new lady friend feels
Bill Kraft or Bob Kraft, uh proloined. What's going on?
Speaker 8 (30:54):
Yeah, so, uh, And the strategy is somewhat unusual and
I don't have there's really not much precedent for it
in trademark law.
Speaker 7 (31:06):
Although and I'll tell you what the strategy is that.
Speaker 8 (31:08):
In these filings they're using the exact same trademark that
the England Patriots have under you know, Bob Kraft as
except putting Bill's version at the end of them. And
this is I think misdirected and misguided. It's the closest
(31:29):
analogy that I can think of is that recently Taylor
Swift had filed copyrights for all of her original songs
in her version, but that's completely different. That's we're talking
about copyright law, which is different than trademark law, and
the difference there.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Copy you know, just to simplify if my audience, copyright
basically talks about really creative stuff like someone who writes
a novel, music, Taylor Swift, a movie, photographs. You go
somewhere and you shoot somewhere in the wild and you
get these great photographs of mountains and uh and and
grizzly bears and and and you you copyright them, or
(32:10):
or paintings. Trademarks, it's it's intellectual property, but it's it's
a word or it's a phrase, it's a symbol or
a design. And I guess Belichick is saying, Hey, I
was the one that I use the word coined these phrases.
And I think that's what he's arguing, that that he
(32:31):
coined these phrases such as you know, no day off
or you know some some of the things that that
we associate with with Belichick correct.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
Yeah, by do your job or ignore the noise, these
are all uh, he may have coined them. But trademark law,
I mean, the law does not protect the person that
coins a phrase. There's no copyright protection for short phrases.
Speaker 7 (32:57):
Now, if you're the first.
Speaker 8 (32:58):
To file, then you've got a decent claim.
Speaker 7 (33:01):
But that he's not the first to.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
File, so Bobcraft beat him to beat him to the
to the filing.
Speaker 8 (33:10):
He exactly, so you have to file first under copyright law,
and he beat him to the filing, and then you
have to It's not enough just to reserve a slogan
or a name. It's not like domain names where you
register a domain name and you own it. Trademark law
requires use so that there they have to be used
in commerce, and you can't just apply for it.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
And hold it. I don't know if there's been any use.
They do have.
Speaker 8 (33:37):
There's a period of time where you can apply for
an intent to use trademark.
Speaker 7 (33:42):
But if you're not first, the trademark.
Speaker 8 (33:45):
Office is going to do a search and find conflicting marks.
And if somebody has superior rights and has filed earlier,
and they believe consumers are going to be confused, then
absolutely the person that is second to file that trademark
likely will and should be rejected, is under a likelihood
(34:08):
of confusion rejection, which is basically that consumers are going
to be confused. And I think simply putting Bill's version
at the end of a trademark phrase is not enough
to prevent confusion any any different than if meet John
Rizzby or the patent professor would start selling Coca Cola
products and in parentheses put John Risby's version or the
(34:32):
patent professor version. That's not enough to prevent confusion.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So let me get the professor to explain this. So
Belichick is going to say, hey, I used to tell
the team for years and years and years there are
no days off, no days off. We work hard every day,
no days off, football training camp to the Super Bowl,
no days off. That's going to be his argument. In
the meantime, if I'm understanding you, Bob Craft thought, oh,
(34:57):
that's a pretty good phrase. Bob Craft went and trademarked
that phrase and associated with his ownership of the Patriots.
Speaker 7 (35:05):
Correct exactly, and the selling of goods services.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
So okay, So now, what what about? What about if
Craft makes the argument, Look, when when Belichick claims to
have come up with this phrase, he was an employee
of my company, and therefore that phrase that he created,
he created it in the context and in the course
(35:30):
of his employment and I, as his employer, have a
right to ownership of that phrase. Does that argument on
behalf of craft have have some some some impact.
Speaker 8 (35:42):
Yeah, so gosh, that is an interesting argument. It Typically
it requires support from an employment agreement, and it applies.
I've never seen it apply to trademarks. Typically it's for
patents and copyrights, so those that are produced in the
course of employment. But that's that's by an employment agreements.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
But this wasn't. What I'm saying is there aren't too
many people who have a higher profile than an NFL
head coach who's sitting in front of the media, you know,
three or four times a week or maybe more often,
certainly after every game. And Belichick did have these phrases,
every New England Patriot fan would know that they they
began with him. I don't think Bob Kraft would have
(36:32):
said to Belichick, Hey, after the game tomorrow, just when
we win, you know, tell tell everybody that you've been
telling the players. Now you know my phrase, no days off.
It's so sort of thing they're prone to. Belichick created
it spontaneously. I don't think he had any intention to
come up with his phrase and then slap it on
sweatshirts and sell no days off sweatshirts. I just think
(36:55):
it might be a case that's a first impression or
my way off the page.
Speaker 8 (37:01):
Well, there's certainly there's no precedent. So you're right in
the sense that it's an argument that can be made
to the extent that they will try to show that
there's some similarity between what Taylor Swift did.
Speaker 7 (37:15):
That's copyright law, but.
Speaker 8 (37:16):
There's also a huge difference in that, like she never
gave up rights to the original songwriting rights, the lyrics,
the melody, those are always owned by her and owned
in terms of actual copyrights. But in this case, you
don't have Build does not have any intellectual property rights
(37:39):
to the slogans and the saying, despite the fact that yes,
he said them first, he made them famous, and he
is known for those. But the law does not provide
any protection for short.
Speaker 7 (37:54):
Slogans or sayings. There's just no protection for that.
Speaker 8 (37:57):
If you power trademarkers start selling goods or service, is
that's how you get trademark rights.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Okay, well, okay, so so Bill might be left out
in the cold here. It seems a little unfair, but
the law sometimes is unfair. Professor Rusby is always you've
clarified things very nicely for us. Thanks so much for
your time on this Thursday night. And I assume you're
not a Patriots fan. You're probably I know you're in Florida,
(38:23):
so you're probably a Dolphins fan. But if there is,
if there's some player down there or some coach that
comes up with a real catchy phrase, they should get
in touch with you and make sure that they cover
themselves legally before before the phrase that they create gets
out into the into the ether and someone else steals it.
Speaker 8 (38:42):
Yere, they need to they need to file as soon
as possible because trademark rights are either first to use
or first to file. And youth means commercial youth selling
goods their services.
Speaker 7 (38:55):
And had Bill actually done that other than.
Speaker 9 (39:00):
You know, not just say that the saying yeah, but
I sard me, I sympathize, and I agree with what
you're saying about it doesn't seem fair.
Speaker 8 (39:11):
Unfortunately, as you pointed out a lot of times, that
law is not seen as fair, uh, and that trademark
law is not on his side.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, you could tell that to every guy who's every
guy or a woman who's locked up in prison. None
of them did the crime trademark, copyright, patent or domain names.
You got to be really know this stuff, and John
Risby does. Professor Risby, thank you so much. We'll talk again.
Speaker 7 (39:36):
Okay, thank you always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
You're welcome. All right, we get back from the nine
o'clock News. We're going to talk about a very serious
problem and I think many of you can identify with,
and that is have you tried to change doctors? So
you have a doctor who retired and have you been
able to get a doctor here in New England are
anywhere in the country. We'll talk with the Dean of
the University of Michigan Medical School about that very problem
(40:01):
and why we do not have enough doctors in this country,
the most advanced country in the world. It's a problem.
We'll talk about that in changing medical terrain and environment
and how it's going to affect all of us. This
will be a great guest. We had him with us
briefly a couple of weeks ago, and I'm so delighted
he'll join us and take your calls tonight back on
(40:23):
Night Side. Right after this
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