August 4, 2025 • 38 mins
Are Israel and Hamas any closer to reaching a ceasefire? A U.S. backed proposal for a 60-day ceasefire involving hostage exchanges and aid access collapsed. Israel is now considering expanding its military offensive in Gaza, while Hamas has rejected demands to disarm. Jeff Robbins, former Chairman of the New England Board of the Anti-Defamation League joined Dan to talk about peace initiatives in the Middle East and the difficulties in bringing the Israel-Hamas war to an end.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
He caused in his new.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Video, Well, there's been lots going on in the Middle
East for the last few weeks, and you have a
sense that this situation over there, for better or worse,
is coming to a conclusion. So I thought that it
would be good for us. We haven't talked about the
(00:25):
Middle East and what is going on now. It started
a little less than two years ago with the horrific raid,
the murder of twelve hundred Israelis and the captivity of
upwards of two hundred and fifty hostages, many of whom
were killed in captivity, some of whom were released, some
(00:49):
are still in captivity. Today, there's a story that Prime
Minister Netanyaho is actually thinking about a total occupation of
the Gaza Strip. Meanwhile, three countries that that surprised me, Canada,
France and England are thinking about recognizing a Palestinian state somewhere,
(01:14):
I don't know where. Whenever I think about this, I
always want to talk to my friend Jeff Robbins, and
Jeff Jeff joins us tonight. Jeff his latest book is
Notes from the Brink, a collection of columns about policy
at home and abroad available now literally everywhere Amazon, Bardons
(01:37):
and Noble, et cetera. It's a former assistant US Attorney
and the United States Delegates of the United Nations Human
Rights Council. In Geneva was chief counsel for the Minority
of the US Senate Permanent Subcommittee Investigations. He specializes in
First Amendment law, and he's a longtime columnist writing on politics,
national security, human rights, and the Middle East. And Jeff,
(02:00):
this situation has gone on for a long time. I
think the Israelis, the Israeli government, frankly, has shown a
lot of forbearance. They could have gone in and done
a lot more damage than they have done, and yet
they continue to be criticized by many in the party.
(02:21):
That you're a longtime member of the Democratic Party, it
has to be very difficult for you, as somebody who's
former chair of the Anti Defamation League here in New
England to see not only what happened on October seventh,
twenty twenty three, but the fallout from October seventh, twenty
twenty three, and the fact that the world did not
(02:43):
stand up in unison and condemn the atrocities that were
committed against innocent Israeli men, women and children. And here
we are now what twenty two months later, almost twenty
two months later, and somehow Israel was once again, in
some way being blamed for something that they never started.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Well, Dana, first of all, thank you for having me.
And you are somebody who follows this conflict and has
followed this conflict in detail for a very long time.
And I, unsurprisingly couldn't say it any better than you have.
It's a lot worse than Alice in Wonderland. It is
full out perverse, exactly as you say. There's a tendency
(03:28):
to think of this as awfully complex. Not in my mind,
it's not. On October six, twenty twenty three. Everybody who
has subsequently been killed was alive. There were kids who
were doing nothing more than dancing who were alive. They
were toddlers and grandparents who were in their villages who
(03:50):
were alive. None of this had to happen, and a
decision was made, over the course of a long time
to send what now appeared to be five thousand hept
up maniacal, genocidal jihadist gunmen into Israel to blow as
many of them apart as possible. That's where we are.
(04:13):
Nothing that has happened had to have happened but for that,
and had that not happened, not only would the twelve
hundred be alive, not only would the hundreds of thousands
of Israelis who were mutilated be healthy. Not only would
the two hundred and fifty poor souls who were dragged
half dead or dead into captivity be back with their families,
(04:39):
but thousands of gossens whom Hamas deliberately consigned to this suffering,
would not be subjected to this level of suffering. That's
the simple fact. And when I hear, and I know
when you hear people say, oh my god, what is
Israel doing? I have to ask the question, what in
(04:59):
the world world would you do?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
You know?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
I listened to I see John Stewart performing, you know,
and and basically being sardonic about Israel. And John Stuart
has a very important job. He recites jokes that principally
other people write for him. That's important. But you kind
of wonder, what, my friend, would you advise, since you're
(05:24):
so wise the Israeli government to have done, what would
you do? Is there some way that you can think
of that when Hamas deliberately embeds itself deep underground under
civilian neighborhoods, that there's some way of extracting them without
killing civilians. There isn't there simply is not. So I
(05:45):
have the same frustration that you have, and I have
the additional frustration because, as you say, there are people
in my party who have lost their way.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yeah, I was. I was really concerned the other day
when I saw Britain or England, Canada in France suggesting
that they are now open to recognizing a Palestinian state.
They did not specify where that Palestinian state would be.
They did not, in any way, shape or form indicate
(06:19):
who would lead the Palestinian Did they really want to
recognize a state that would be led by terrorists from Hamas?
Was that what their purpose is?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
The level of idiocy is like sands on the seashore.
I mean, where to begin. First of all, they say that, well,
Hamas cannot govern Gaza. Okay, great, who's going to remove
Hamas from Gaza? Tinkerbell the tooth Fairy? How is that
going to occur? So when you say that, you simultaneously
(06:51):
that Hamas cannot have any role in governing Gaza, but
Israel should unilaterally declare a ceasefire. What in the name
of all that's holy are you saying when you say
that there should be a ceasefire and the Hamas and
there are hostages should be returned home, what are you saying.
Hamas has said they're not gonna return. They could have
returned the hostages at any time over the last two years,
(07:14):
almost two years ending this conflict. They're not doing it
for reasons that they know, They understand they have leverage
over Israel. So there is a stupidity, frankly, and a
fecklessness on the part of these countries and others that
is not surprising. At this point, you're really going to say, Okay,
(07:38):
here's what we're going to do. Now that you've slaughtered
twelve hundred Israelis and deliberately consigned thousands of your own
citizens about whom you profess the care to death and suffering,
here's what we're going to do. We're going to recognize
the Palestinian state, which of course has led a musk
in the last couple of days to say, see publicly,
these are the fruits of October seven. What in the
(08:00):
world are they.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Thinking we're going to take a break. My guest is
Jeff Robins. We're also going to talk about victims, and
we're going to talk about a photograph of the New
York Times which drew a lot of attention. UH, and
there now has been somewhat of a retraction or a clarification. UH.
(08:21):
There is a video out there of one of the
Israeli hostages being forced to dig his own grave, which
is a war crime, an absolute war crime that is
reminiscent of literally Nazi Germany. UH, and the German totalitarians
(08:44):
that we thought had been eradicated from the face of
the earth back in the nineteen forties. We're going to
get to all of that, and I'd love to have
you join the conversation. I got one line at six
one seven, two five four ten thirty, and I got
a couple open at six one seven nine three one
ten thirty. And if you've ever felt the obligation to
speak up for Israel, now is the time. This is
(09:09):
the place.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
UH.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
And if you would like to challenge what Jeff and
I believe, and you want to have a conversation, and
you feel that there's a solution that we we don't
see that's reasonable. Feel free to join the conversation as well.
The only lines open now are six, one, seven, nine three.
All the other lines are full back on Nightside after.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
This, it's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
We're joined by Jeff Robbins and we're talking about the
Middle East. Jeff, there was a photograph on the front
page of the New York Times several days ago, and
it purported to show a young Palestinian boy who literally
was skin and bones, and the New York Times it
(10:01):
was a great deal of publicity, that is a program
that a photograph that obviously would have melted even the
hardest of hearts. However, apparently the photograph was misleading and
that this child suffered from a birth defect which was
(10:22):
unrelated to the idea of starvation. Can you explain this
to the audience in case they are familiar with this?
And then I want to reference the videotape that was
released an Israeli hostage of being forced to in theory,
dig his own grave.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yeah, I mean it is endemic, unfortunately, of what the
New York Times has done when it comes to this
conflict forever, and it's just the latest example. But it's
a graphic one, exactly as you say, and there's no doubt.
Get to this in a second. There is a lot
of suffering in Gaza. It is suffering that Hamas has
(11:05):
quite deliberately consigned its population to. There was a lot
of suffering before Octo in Gaza, before October seventh, and
there's a lot more suffering now deliberately, so no question
about it. So they take this poor child who has
I think it was cerebral palsy, and who is completely emaciated,
(11:27):
and they ignore the fact that his family obviously has
plenty of food and is fit, and they put this
picture of this child, a huge picture on the front
page of the New York Times, and it goes viral,
and it's the face of the supposed starvation policy that
Israel is supposedly subjecting Gaza to. And of course it's fraudulent.
(11:52):
It's just fraud. If it were for the sale of securities,
they'd be sued for securities fraud to prosecute it, and
any other content it would be fraud. But the New
York Times is the New York Times.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Is it possible in your mind, Jeff, that somehow the
New York Times seized this picture and did not realize
that it was something other than what it purported to be.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
There's some evidence that they quite delivered that people actually
warned them internally about it, and they chose to do
it anyway. And of course the proof ends up being
in the pudding because when there was an outcry, not
that they're so prone to respond to outcries. Instead of
saying we got it wrong, we made a mistake, we apologize,
(12:34):
and making that apology fulsomely on the front page online,
what they did is they relegated a very very half hearted,
not even half hearted, quarter hearted obscure. We looked at
some medical records and we now see there were other
issues in his medical history, and they put it on
(12:54):
an obscure website, obviously trying to bury the mistake or
the error or the deliberate misleading, whichever was. So you know,
it's it's dishonest journalism. It had a huge impact. It
is I say, went all over the world with this
is what Israel is doing to the Gossens, this deliberate
starvation policy. And the person in question was not being starved.
(13:19):
He wasn't he had he did not have any malnutrition issues.
He had a cerebral palsy or a similar condition. So
it was dishonest. It's the kind of thing which frankly,
has made so many Americans so deeply skeptical about the media.
But you know, uh, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, you know,
the truth uh is not even getting it's it's uh,
(13:42):
it's socks on before the falsehood has gone around the
world three times. And so there you have it. And
with respect to this, it was ironic, of course, So
so the the the posting of it was dishonest. The
purported it wasn't even an apology, that purported you know,
mild mannered, milk toasty kind of evasion of a explanation
(14:06):
or clarification was dishonest. Compounded with the fact that the
very next day or so, there were these two pictures,
these pictures of these two hostages, Israeli hostages, who are
in fact starving. They are in fact being starved, They
are both emaciated, and one of the emaciated hostages, mister David,
(14:28):
was being forced to dig his own grave, which, as
you say, is a war crime. By the way, Hamas
is entering the war crime Hall of Fame. The attack
on civilians was a war crime. The use of human
shields was a war crime. There's just war crimes every
day with Hamas, which nobody says anything about. But you
might imagine that out of sheepishness, out of some sense
(14:50):
of pride or shame or embarrassment or something, that the
Times and other news organs would that had done this
with this fraudulent photo, would have I found it morally
necessary to put the pictures of these two poor starving
Israeli hostages being starved by Hamas on the front pages.
They buried it. So it was it was the daily
(15:15):
double of really regrettable, in fact dishonest in my view
of journalism.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Word today, and we only have a couple of minutes
here until the ten thirty news, which I want to
get to and then we're going to go to phone calls.
Word today is that Prime Minister net Yahoo is actually
considering that the only way to end this nightmare is
(15:43):
to occupy Gaza, full occupation of Gaza. You know that
Israel is going to be criticized for that because obviously
that's going to cause some horrific loss of life. Does
he have any other choice?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Well, that's exactly the question. I mean, you need to
be a fan of net Yahoo to appreciate the horrible
situation that he is in. What do you do now?
Do you simply say, Okay, you win, do whatever you're
going to do with the hostages, re arm and do
this again in five years, or do you try to
(16:24):
do something which a lot of people think cannot be done,
which is to absolutely to somehow get the hostages back militarily,
or to force a moss to surrender militarily. Surely you
can't do that without a lot more death, including, by
the way, quite possibly the death of some of the hostages.
So the geniuses who profess to know that Yahoo is
(16:50):
doing this doing something to kind of preserve his political career,
I'd like to see them in a situation remotely as
complex as the one he finds himself in. And that's
from somebody who has criticized that Yahoo. But I don't
have any idea what I would do in his situation,
because it's a hellish situation, and there's a lot of division,
(17:12):
by the way, in Israel, as with everything else, about
what should be done at this point.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
My guest is Jeff Robbins. He is a columnist. He's
an attorney specializing in First Amendment, former chair of the
Anti Defamation League here in New England, has represented this country,
was a member of the Clinton administration, and he is
quite upset with the progressive left in the Democratic Party.
(17:40):
And we will look, you know, the Democrats have just
decided the only way to respond is to have head
left Jeff up up to and including nominating or potentially
nominating an individual to become the mayor of New York,
Zorn Mindami, who was endorsed today by Elizabeth Warren. It
(18:05):
just seems to me that the Democratic Party, of which
you are a proud member, uh has lost its way,
and I commend you for trying to bring it back
to reality. We're going to go to phone calls. I
only have one line open and it's it's six one, seven,
ten thirty. We will we have calls. We're going to
(18:26):
get to them, and I want to hear from as
many of you as possible. But obviously, if you agree
with Jeff Robbins, great, If you disagree and you want
to have a rational conversation, we can do that as well.
That's what Night Side's all about. My name is Dan Ray.
We're coming right back.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Jeff, let's get let's get to phone calls, folks. Go
going to ask you to be as direct as you can.
Let me go to Matt. Matt, you were first up.
This are with Jeff Robins talking about the lay his
developments in the Middle East.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Go ahead, and Matt Impati, how you doing, mister Robbins.
I want to first off say almost expressively, I am
a stark supporter of Israel, and I fully agree with
the notion of what was said. I think that there
(19:27):
are right now some difficulties that Bebee, who I am
personally not a fan of, just to add to it
because of his own indifferences of what he did outside
with you know, corruption. But nevertheless, right now comas as
(19:47):
you has said, it is stealing everything which Israel pulled
out as we know. I just want to add to
the viewers who are listening, Israel pulled out some troops
from areas for aid for some of these people. And
I'm only speaking, you know, emphatically, because it's important to
know that these aides are trying to get in and
(20:11):
they're not being stopped by Israel. They're being stopped by
come off and these you en groups, these other groups
won't go in. And then you have places like the BBC,
all these news media who are putting out things and saying, well,
that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Matt.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Do you have a question for my guest? Matt, do
you have a question for my guest?
Speaker 5 (20:38):
I Dan, it's more, it's more of a statement, and
I'm I'm speaking emphatically because it's something that's important to
be known. I agree with him, and I want to
thank him for speaking out and speaking out as he did,
and I think that's important. And I agree with him
almost fully in everything he said.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I want to and you know how, I got to
make one observation about what the caller said. Here's an illustration. Today.
There's a UN report out, that UN report that finds
that eighty eight point seven, almost eighty nine percent of
all the aid that was sent into Gaza since late
(21:23):
May was intercepted almost ninety percent, that's what the UN says,
intercepted by either hamas or by gangs or by other groups.
So when you hear as we heard a couple of
weeks ago, there is no evidence that there's systematic stealing
(21:43):
of this aid. What on God's green earth are they
talking about this.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
I don't think that aid is being stolen by elderly
citizens or pregnant women and infants.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
I are the Amish seizing this aid. It's preposterous, just preposterous.
So I share the callers outrage.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Let me go, Let me go to Dawn in Florida,
and Matt, I inadvertently hung up on you, but I
think your remarks were very important down in Florida. Don
next to nice side with Jeff Robins.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
Go ahead, don Oh, yes, good evening. Jeff. I used
to work for Center of Javits a number of years
ago in New York, and so you know, I've got
a deep appreciation for some of the subtleties related to
what the what Jewish people have had to deal with
throughout their history. However, I think what's occurred in Gazo
(22:40):
and correct me if you think that this information is inaccurate, Well,
do you agree with the premise that, in fact, what
the reports of forty fifty up to sixty thousand Palestinians
have been killed?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
So the simple answer is, we have no idea. And
here's why certainly, but there's.
Speaker 6 (23:03):
No doubt believe that you believe that the magnitude of
that number be it, let's say, sixty thousand is wrong
and it's only thirty five thousand. Do you accept that premise?
Speaker 4 (23:15):
I'm assuming that there are thousands of people who are
have died. I get that, But let me just respond
to you in two ways. The reason that I say
we have no idea is because the statistics that are
cited come from something called the Gaza Health Ministry, which
is the Hamas Health Ministry. Now what what would that
(23:36):
actually be? Put aside for one second fact that it's Hamas.
Hamas's functionaries are not just figuratively underground, they're literally underground.
So when statistics are cited by effectively the Hamas Health
Ministry about how many people were killed and how many
were civilians and what occurred and what witnesses said, you
(23:57):
can't assume that anything.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
I don't want to debate the number. I just want
to debate the scale. Do you agree?
Speaker 4 (24:06):
I do agree that there's no reason in the world
to think that there are not thousands of deaths in Goza.
Absolutely Israel has hold on I was Second, Israel has
said that twenty to twenty five or so thousand of
them are combatans. I don't know if that's true or not.
But here's the thing, what would you or any of
(24:30):
us like Israel to do under these circumstances when the
premise is we're speaking of premises. The premise of Hamas's
attack was that when Israel responded as it no doubt
would have to, there would have to be lots of
these casualties, and there are. So if somebody has a
(24:51):
solution for a country that has been massively attacked by
an entity which is genocidal and which has vowed to
keep doing it, as they in fact did today, if
somebody has some solution to basically stop that threat without
killing civilians, regardless of all the steps to have taken,
(25:12):
somebody should put it, not just in the suggestion box,
but say it.
Speaker 6 (25:17):
And I think the only path forward, would you agree,
is that the parties need to get in rooms and
talk these things through. But oppression of people for decades
upon decades, and the fact that finally some Western governments
are joining the rest of the world and recognizing the
legitimate interests of the Palestinian people, frankly, I applaud and
(25:40):
I'm disappointed that the US is not also taking the
same steps. Don Let I ask you a question, if occurred,
I gotten them, would occurred October seventh?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I got them?
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, you do the question I have. Do you think
that Hamas has any interest in the safety, the security,
or the future of the Palestinian people in Gaza?
Speaker 6 (26:06):
I presume that they may have some tangential interest in it,
but no, I think there's a there's an endemic hatred
that that they represent. And I get that. At the
same time, you only cultivate more people to adopt the
ideology by brutalizing innocent people. And I think what Israel
has tried to do is tried to use a hammer
(26:29):
when you need, you know, a surgical, surgical application of
a solution. It's not going to be perfect. I get it.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
I condemn your bright eye when when we firebombed Dresden
during World War Two, if you had been alive, would
you would you have you seen that situation as an
I'm familiar.
Speaker 6 (26:53):
I'm familiar with it. I think in hindsight, a lot
of people feel that that was the wrong thing to do.
When we're talking about nuclear nuclear bombing in Japan, I
think the decision was made that we want to spare,
I want to spare our military as much destruction as
possible and use a horrible weapon.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Well, the estimates were that it would have cost a
million US soldiers personnel to invade Japan. And again, I'll
draw the analogy a little a little more clearly, just
as the situation that has evolved in Gaza in the
last twenty one months would never have happened in the
(27:37):
absence of October seventh, Nagasaki and Hiroshima would never have
happened in the absence of Pearl Harbor.
Speaker 6 (27:44):
It might not, but there's been a burning, a burning
passion within the Palestinian people for their own sense of
identity and freedom, and that's compelling.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Let me get let me give an opportunity to respond
to that. And then you've gone on a good amount
of time, and I'm glad you did. I'm glad you
called in. You've been a great caller, Jeff. Final comment
Flora and Dawn in Florida.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Yeah, Unfortunately, the notion that Hamas wants to mediate a
solution for two state resolution is fantasy. I'm afraid that's
the case. The attack on October seventh was for the
purpose of annihilating Jews by an organization that is doctrinally
(28:34):
committed to the obliteration of Jews and the existence of
no Jews in that land. So I applaud your idealism
and thinking that really the solution is for them to
get in the room. But it's like saying that you
know that, Frankly, that Hitler should have gotten in the
room with the allies and work this thing out sometimes
(28:57):
that he tried.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
He tried to with Neville Chamberlain didn't go. I'd worked
that way.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Right right, all right, don we gotta let you on.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
I'm sorry, thank you, I appreciate it. It's an imperfect
solution to a horrible problem. But at the same time,
the alternative is not the obliteration of the Palastinian people
in Garda.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
All right, you had final word you, thank you, don
appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Call.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Take a break. Coming right back. I'm going to get
as many of you in as I can, so please,
Debbie and Jamie and Bob and Joe, you guys stay there. Well,
we'll try to move it a little bit more quickly.
My guest is Jeff Robbins. I agree with everything Jeff
Robins has said, and I wasn't trying to be unfair
to Dawn, but I wanted to to draw out a
couple of analogies. Back on Nightside right after.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
This, You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w
B Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
I really would like to pick up the pace a
little bit because we have full lines for Jeff Robbins.
Let we go to Jamie and Sharon Janey. You're next
on Night Side with Jeff Robbins. Go right ahead. If
you get a comment or question, sure, Thank you.
Speaker 7 (30:02):
For taking me. I just want to say, as a
lifelong Democrat, I've been appalled at the ignorance that exists
from the left and also from older Democrats who need
to really an older Republicans as well, who need to
(30:26):
educate young people about the importance of Israel.
Speaker 8 (30:30):
You know, because we're so far away from World War
Two and the Holocaust, a lot of young people really
don't understand how important.
Speaker 7 (30:41):
It is to the Jewish people to have Israel and
how important it is to the United States to have a.
Speaker 8 (30:49):
Democracy like Israel in the in the Middle East.
Speaker 7 (30:54):
And you know, in terms of so I fully agree
with everything up and said I do have a question
for him that he might know more about, and that
is there is a movie, a film that was made
by Deborah Messing and other people called October eighth, and
(31:16):
it raises some questions about and he has some evidence
that actually the protests on campuses in the United States
were funded by Palestinian political organizations from the Middle East.
(31:38):
And I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
If if anyone's going to know anything about it, w'd
be Jeff. Jeff, go right ahead.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
I have seen the movie. It's a very powerful movie
and there is evidence to that effect.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Short and sweeten to the point, Janney, thank you so much.
Thank you for calling this your first time calling my show. Yes,
please continue to call. We need divorce.
Speaker 6 (32:00):
Yeah, well, thank.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
You very much. To go next to again, really good call.
Quickly to the point, Bob and West Tisbury on with
Jeff Robins, go right ahead, Bob.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Hey, Jeff, thank you. You've done a great job of
explaining the war crimes that have been committed by a
mass direct targeting of civilians, human shields, et cetera. Are
you aware of any instance where Israel has directly targeted
a civilian, or, for that matter, any single instance where
(32:33):
Israel has committed a war crime.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Well, look, the trouble is, there's just so much that's
not known. If there's any occasion, there have been, There
have been Israeli soldiers who have been disciplined, and I'm
presuming that they were disciplined precisely because they had engaged
in criminal activity. There's been a fair number of errant
(32:59):
you know, fire for example, the disastrous mistake in hitting
of this Catholic church within the last ten days or so.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
But it's not intentional about intentional any instance where Israel.
I mean, I'm trying to get at the moral clarity here.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
I've got to believe, I must believe that there are
instances in which soldiers have done that. But I can
tell you from my at least exposure to spending time
over there and then talking to the military and military lawyers,
they make a probably unprecedented effort to try to avoid
(33:38):
killing civilians. But they have killed civilians, There's no question
about it. Do I think that they are engaged in genocide,
Absolutely not. Do I think that they are individual acts.
When soldiers have done things which are probably criminal, I
am sure there are. The trouble is, it's so damn
hard to find out what the facts are because of
(33:59):
this bog of propaganda that seems to have locked so
many in.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
But if you look at the evidence that we have
what Amas has done, compared to the lack of evidence
of Israeli crimes, there's no comparison.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
There is no comparison.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Bob, i'd let you try to get one more Rian,
thanks very much for listening to us down on the venue.
Have a great night. I think we lost the man.
Let me go next to Debbie in Boston. Debbi next
on nice Side with Jeff Robins.
Speaker 9 (34:34):
Go ahead, Debbie, good evening, Jeff and Dan.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (34:38):
Thank you to both of you for having this brave conversation.
And my question sort of goes to both of you.
I mean, today's day, six hundred and sixty six. You know,
since ten to seven, these hostages are still down in
these horrific conditions. Anti anti Semitism is through the roof
(34:58):
the incidents of skyrocket it locally, nationally, globally. It's a
dangerous time. This whole issue with the New York Times
and CNN and other news media. I mean, how the
horrific photos of this past weekend with the two hostages.
You know, we saw it, but like the news media
does not lead with this. They go back to the
(35:20):
situation in Gaza, and we know that there is a situation.
We understand, but these were just posted. It was just
amazing that it was buried except for the New York Post. Anyway,
this is not balanced. How to either of you suggest
that we turn this narrative around so it's balanced and
leading with the fact that this started because the hostages. Okay,
(35:42):
because they came after us.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Great, great question, Jeff, you go first.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Well, first of all, just think about two things to
punctuate your point. Think about the fact that within minutes
of this happening on October seventh, there were organizations the
Democratic Social of America at Harvard elsewhere that we're blaming
Israel for this. And then think about the pattern of
(36:07):
the ripping down. You mentioned the hostages of posters, of
little children, or the elderly, or the infirm, or the
disabled who are being held in tunnels, the ripping down
of these hostages, and it illustrates the gravity of the
problem you describe. I don't have a magic bullet, and
all I know is that those of us who like Dan,
(36:29):
like me, like you, presumably who care about this, have
got to find some way of hammering away, notwithstanding the
fact that it runs counter to political fashion and it's
just not popular. We just have to keep saying this
stuff over and over again and hoping that somehow or
other we are able to penetrate, at least in some
(36:50):
people's minds, the perversity of what has occurred here.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I would just add real quickly, Debbie, that as somebody
has been in the media for my entire life fifty years,
there are a lot of people who come into the
news media who have sort of instinct rather than an understanding,
and their instinct often is that Israel represents the West,
Western democracy, and somehow Western democracy is flawed, and therefore
(37:18):
Israel is going to be criticized for everything that they
do that does not comply with the view the worldviewpoints
of these folks who have been in many cases brainwashed
at some of the finest colleges and universities in this country.
And one of the things that I think has been
one of the benefits, if you can call it a
(37:39):
benefit of this, is that people now are looking at
colleges and realizing how imbalanced a lot of the great
universities in this countries are in this country are that
they're out of PTRI district ideas. There're a place where
people go and unfortunately they only hear one point of view,
which is the West is bad. That's my answer. I
(38:02):
wish I had more time to expound on it. Thank you, Debbie,
I appreciate it. Jeff Robbins, thank you so much for
your time. For those of you in the line, I'd
like to continue talking about this in the next hour.
I will start with Joe and Bill and we have
a couple of open lines if you'd like. Six months
(38:22):
seven two, five, four, ten thirty, six months seven nine, three, one,
ten thirty. Jeff Robbins, thank you. Thank you as always
for your time UH and your dedication to freedom everywhere.
We'll be back right after the ten o'clock news
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
He caused in his new.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Video, Well, there's been lots going on in the Middle
East for the last few weeks, and you have a
sense that this situation over there, for better or worse,
is coming to a conclusion. So I thought that it
would be good for us. We haven't talked about the
(00:25):
Middle East and what is going on now. It started
a little less than two years ago with the horrific raid,
the murder of twelve hundred Israelis and the captivity of
upwards of two hundred and fifty hostages, many of whom
were killed in captivity, some of whom were released, some
(00:49):
are still in captivity. Today, there's a story that Prime
Minister Netanyaho is actually thinking about a total occupation of
the Gaza Strip. Meanwhile, three countries that that surprised me, Canada,
France and England are thinking about recognizing a Palestinian state somewhere,
(01:14):
I don't know where. Whenever I think about this, I
always want to talk to my friend Jeff Robbins, and
Jeff Jeff joins us tonight. Jeff his latest book is
Notes from the Brink, a collection of columns about policy
at home and abroad available now literally everywhere Amazon, Bardons
(01:37):
and Noble, et cetera. It's a former assistant US Attorney
and the United States Delegates of the United Nations Human
Rights Council. In Geneva was chief counsel for the Minority
of the US Senate Permanent Subcommittee Investigations. He specializes in
First Amendment law, and he's a longtime columnist writing on politics,
national security, human rights, and the Middle East. And Jeff,
(02:00):
this situation has gone on for a long time. I
think the Israelis, the Israeli government, frankly, has shown a
lot of forbearance. They could have gone in and done
a lot more damage than they have done, and yet
they continue to be criticized by many in the party.
(02:21):
That you're a longtime member of the Democratic Party, it
has to be very difficult for you, as somebody who's
former chair of the Anti Defamation League here in New
England to see not only what happened on October seventh,
twenty twenty three, but the fallout from October seventh, twenty
twenty three, and the fact that the world did not
(02:43):
stand up in unison and condemn the atrocities that were
committed against innocent Israeli men, women and children. And here
we are now what twenty two months later, almost twenty
two months later, and somehow Israel was once again, in
some way being blamed for something that they never started.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Well, Dana, first of all, thank you for having me.
And you are somebody who follows this conflict and has
followed this conflict in detail for a very long time.
And I, unsurprisingly couldn't say it any better than you have.
It's a lot worse than Alice in Wonderland. It is
full out perverse, exactly as you say. There's a tendency
(03:28):
to think of this as awfully complex. Not in my mind,
it's not. On October six, twenty twenty three. Everybody who
has subsequently been killed was alive. There were kids who
were doing nothing more than dancing who were alive. They
were toddlers and grandparents who were in their villages who
(03:50):
were alive. None of this had to happen, and a
decision was made, over the course of a long time
to send what now appeared to be five thousand hept
up maniacal, genocidal jihadist gunmen into Israel to blow as
many of them apart as possible. That's where we are.
(04:13):
Nothing that has happened had to have happened but for that,
and had that not happened, not only would the twelve
hundred be alive, not only would the hundreds of thousands
of Israelis who were mutilated be healthy. Not only would
the two hundred and fifty poor souls who were dragged
half dead or dead into captivity be back with their families,
(04:39):
but thousands of gossens whom Hamas deliberately consigned to this suffering,
would not be subjected to this level of suffering. That's
the simple fact. And when I hear, and I know
when you hear people say, oh my god, what is
Israel doing? I have to ask the question, what in
(04:59):
the world world would you do?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
You know?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
I listened to I see John Stewart performing, you know,
and and basically being sardonic about Israel. And John Stuart
has a very important job. He recites jokes that principally
other people write for him. That's important. But you kind
of wonder, what, my friend, would you advise, since you're
(05:24):
so wise the Israeli government to have done, what would
you do? Is there some way that you can think
of that when Hamas deliberately embeds itself deep underground under
civilian neighborhoods, that there's some way of extracting them without
killing civilians. There isn't there simply is not. So I
(05:45):
have the same frustration that you have, and I have
the additional frustration because, as you say, there are people
in my party who have lost their way.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yeah, I was. I was really concerned the other day
when I saw Britain or England, Canada in France suggesting
that they are now open to recognizing a Palestinian state.
They did not specify where that Palestinian state would be.
They did not, in any way, shape or form indicate
(06:19):
who would lead the Palestinian Did they really want to
recognize a state that would be led by terrorists from Hamas?
Was that what their purpose is?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
The level of idiocy is like sands on the seashore.
I mean, where to begin. First of all, they say that, well,
Hamas cannot govern Gaza. Okay, great, who's going to remove
Hamas from Gaza? Tinkerbell the tooth Fairy? How is that
going to occur? So when you say that, you simultaneously
(06:51):
that Hamas cannot have any role in governing Gaza, but
Israel should unilaterally declare a ceasefire. What in the name
of all that's holy are you saying when you say
that there should be a ceasefire and the Hamas and
there are hostages should be returned home, what are you saying.
Hamas has said they're not gonna return. They could have
returned the hostages at any time over the last two years,
(07:14):
almost two years ending this conflict. They're not doing it
for reasons that they know, They understand they have leverage
over Israel. So there is a stupidity, frankly, and a
fecklessness on the part of these countries and others that
is not surprising. At this point, you're really going to say, Okay,
(07:38):
here's what we're going to do. Now that you've slaughtered
twelve hundred Israelis and deliberately consigned thousands of your own
citizens about whom you profess the care to death and suffering,
here's what we're going to do. We're going to recognize
the Palestinian state, which of course has led a musk
in the last couple of days to say, see publicly,
these are the fruits of October seven. What in the
(08:00):
world are they.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Thinking we're going to take a break. My guest is
Jeff Robins. We're also going to talk about victims, and
we're going to talk about a photograph of the New
York Times which drew a lot of attention. UH, and
there now has been somewhat of a retraction or a clarification. UH.
(08:21):
There is a video out there of one of the
Israeli hostages being forced to dig his own grave, which
is a war crime, an absolute war crime that is
reminiscent of literally Nazi Germany. UH, and the German totalitarians
(08:44):
that we thought had been eradicated from the face of
the earth back in the nineteen forties. We're going to
get to all of that, and I'd love to have
you join the conversation. I got one line at six
one seven, two five four ten thirty, and I got
a couple open at six one seven nine three one
ten thirty. And if you've ever felt the obligation to
speak up for Israel, now is the time. This is
(09:09):
the place.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
UH.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
And if you would like to challenge what Jeff and
I believe, and you want to have a conversation, and
you feel that there's a solution that we we don't
see that's reasonable. Feel free to join the conversation as well.
The only lines open now are six, one, seven, nine three.
All the other lines are full back on Nightside after.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
This, it's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
We're joined by Jeff Robbins and we're talking about the
Middle East. Jeff, there was a photograph on the front
page of the New York Times several days ago, and
it purported to show a young Palestinian boy who literally
was skin and bones, and the New York Times it
(10:01):
was a great deal of publicity, that is a program
that a photograph that obviously would have melted even the
hardest of hearts. However, apparently the photograph was misleading and
that this child suffered from a birth defect which was
(10:22):
unrelated to the idea of starvation. Can you explain this
to the audience in case they are familiar with this?
And then I want to reference the videotape that was
released an Israeli hostage of being forced to in theory,
dig his own grave.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yeah, I mean it is endemic, unfortunately, of what the
New York Times has done when it comes to this
conflict forever, and it's just the latest example. But it's
a graphic one, exactly as you say, and there's no doubt.
Get to this in a second. There is a lot
of suffering in Gaza. It is suffering that Hamas has
(11:05):
quite deliberately consigned its population to. There was a lot
of suffering before Octo in Gaza, before October seventh, and
there's a lot more suffering now deliberately, so no question
about it. So they take this poor child who has
I think it was cerebral palsy, and who is completely emaciated,
(11:27):
and they ignore the fact that his family obviously has
plenty of food and is fit, and they put this
picture of this child, a huge picture on the front
page of the New York Times, and it goes viral,
and it's the face of the supposed starvation policy that
Israel is supposedly subjecting Gaza to. And of course it's fraudulent.
(11:52):
It's just fraud. If it were for the sale of securities,
they'd be sued for securities fraud to prosecute it, and
any other content it would be fraud. But the New
York Times is the New York Times.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Is it possible in your mind, Jeff, that somehow the
New York Times seized this picture and did not realize
that it was something other than what it purported to be.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
There's some evidence that they quite delivered that people actually
warned them internally about it, and they chose to do
it anyway. And of course the proof ends up being
in the pudding because when there was an outcry, not
that they're so prone to respond to outcries. Instead of
saying we got it wrong, we made a mistake, we apologize,
(12:34):
and making that apology fulsomely on the front page online,
what they did is they relegated a very very half hearted,
not even half hearted, quarter hearted obscure. We looked at
some medical records and we now see there were other
issues in his medical history, and they put it on
(12:54):
an obscure website, obviously trying to bury the mistake or
the error or the deliberate misleading, whichever was. So you know,
it's it's dishonest journalism. It had a huge impact. It
is I say, went all over the world with this
is what Israel is doing to the Gossens, this deliberate
starvation policy. And the person in question was not being starved.
(13:19):
He wasn't he had he did not have any malnutrition issues.
He had a cerebral palsy or a similar condition. So
it was dishonest. It's the kind of thing which frankly,
has made so many Americans so deeply skeptical about the media.
But you know, uh, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, you know,
the truth uh is not even getting it's it's uh,
(13:42):
it's socks on before the falsehood has gone around the
world three times. And so there you have it. And
with respect to this, it was ironic, of course, So
so the the the posting of it was dishonest. The
purported it wasn't even an apology, that purported you know,
mild mannered, milk toasty kind of evasion of a explanation
(14:06):
or clarification was dishonest. Compounded with the fact that the
very next day or so, there were these two pictures,
these pictures of these two hostages, Israeli hostages, who are
in fact starving. They are in fact being starved, They
are both emaciated, and one of the emaciated hostages, mister David,
(14:28):
was being forced to dig his own grave, which, as
you say, is a war crime. By the way, Hamas
is entering the war crime Hall of Fame. The attack
on civilians was a war crime. The use of human
shields was a war crime. There's just war crimes every
day with Hamas, which nobody says anything about. But you
might imagine that out of sheepishness, out of some sense
(14:50):
of pride or shame or embarrassment or something, that the
Times and other news organs would that had done this
with this fraudulent photo, would have I found it morally
necessary to put the pictures of these two poor starving
Israeli hostages being starved by Hamas on the front pages.
They buried it. So it was it was the daily
(15:15):
double of really regrettable, in fact dishonest in my view
of journalism.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Word today, and we only have a couple of minutes
here until the ten thirty news, which I want to
get to and then we're going to go to phone calls.
Word today is that Prime Minister net Yahoo is actually
considering that the only way to end this nightmare is
(15:43):
to occupy Gaza, full occupation of Gaza. You know that
Israel is going to be criticized for that because obviously
that's going to cause some horrific loss of life. Does
he have any other choice?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Well, that's exactly the question. I mean, you need to
be a fan of net Yahoo to appreciate the horrible
situation that he is in. What do you do now?
Do you simply say, Okay, you win, do whatever you're
going to do with the hostages, re arm and do
this again in five years, or do you try to
(16:24):
do something which a lot of people think cannot be done,
which is to absolutely to somehow get the hostages back militarily,
or to force a moss to surrender militarily. Surely you
can't do that without a lot more death, including, by
the way, quite possibly the death of some of the hostages.
So the geniuses who profess to know that Yahoo is
(16:50):
doing this doing something to kind of preserve his political career,
I'd like to see them in a situation remotely as
complex as the one he finds himself in. And that's
from somebody who has criticized that Yahoo. But I don't
have any idea what I would do in his situation,
because it's a hellish situation, and there's a lot of division,
(17:12):
by the way, in Israel, as with everything else, about
what should be done at this point.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
My guest is Jeff Robbins. He is a columnist. He's
an attorney specializing in First Amendment, former chair of the
Anti Defamation League here in New England, has represented this country,
was a member of the Clinton administration, and he is
quite upset with the progressive left in the Democratic Party.
(17:40):
And we will look, you know, the Democrats have just
decided the only way to respond is to have head
left Jeff up up to and including nominating or potentially
nominating an individual to become the mayor of New York,
Zorn Mindami, who was endorsed today by Elizabeth Warren. It
(18:05):
just seems to me that the Democratic Party, of which
you are a proud member, uh has lost its way,
and I commend you for trying to bring it back
to reality. We're going to go to phone calls. I
only have one line open and it's it's six one, seven,
ten thirty. We will we have calls. We're going to
(18:26):
get to them, and I want to hear from as
many of you as possible. But obviously, if you agree
with Jeff Robbins, great, If you disagree and you want
to have a rational conversation, we can do that as well.
That's what Night Side's all about. My name is Dan Ray.
We're coming right back.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Jeff, let's get let's get to phone calls, folks. Go
going to ask you to be as direct as you can.
Let me go to Matt. Matt, you were first up.
This are with Jeff Robins talking about the lay his
developments in the Middle East.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Go ahead, and Matt Impati, how you doing, mister Robbins.
I want to first off say almost expressively, I am
a stark supporter of Israel, and I fully agree with
the notion of what was said. I think that there
(19:27):
are right now some difficulties that Bebee, who I am
personally not a fan of, just to add to it
because of his own indifferences of what he did outside
with you know, corruption. But nevertheless, right now comas as
(19:47):
you has said, it is stealing everything which Israel pulled
out as we know. I just want to add to
the viewers who are listening, Israel pulled out some troops
from areas for aid for some of these people. And
I'm only speaking, you know, emphatically, because it's important to
know that these aides are trying to get in and
(20:11):
they're not being stopped by Israel. They're being stopped by
come off and these you en groups, these other groups
won't go in. And then you have places like the BBC,
all these news media who are putting out things and saying, well,
that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Matt.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Do you have a question for my guest? Matt, do
you have a question for my guest?
Speaker 5 (20:38):
I Dan, it's more, it's more of a statement, and
I'm I'm speaking emphatically because it's something that's important to
be known. I agree with him, and I want to
thank him for speaking out and speaking out as he did,
and I think that's important. And I agree with him
almost fully in everything he said.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I want to and you know how, I got to
make one observation about what the caller said. Here's an illustration. Today.
There's a UN report out, that UN report that finds
that eighty eight point seven, almost eighty nine percent of
all the aid that was sent into Gaza since late
(21:23):
May was intercepted almost ninety percent, that's what the UN says,
intercepted by either hamas or by gangs or by other groups.
So when you hear as we heard a couple of
weeks ago, there is no evidence that there's systematic stealing
(21:43):
of this aid. What on God's green earth are they
talking about this.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
I don't think that aid is being stolen by elderly
citizens or pregnant women and infants.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
I are the Amish seizing this aid. It's preposterous, just preposterous.
So I share the callers outrage.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Let me go, Let me go to Dawn in Florida,
and Matt, I inadvertently hung up on you, but I
think your remarks were very important down in Florida. Don
next to nice side with Jeff Robins.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
Go ahead, don Oh, yes, good evening. Jeff. I used
to work for Center of Javits a number of years
ago in New York, and so you know, I've got
a deep appreciation for some of the subtleties related to
what the what Jewish people have had to deal with
throughout their history. However, I think what's occurred in Gazo
(22:40):
and correct me if you think that this information is inaccurate, Well,
do you agree with the premise that, in fact, what
the reports of forty fifty up to sixty thousand Palestinians
have been killed?
Speaker 4 (22:56):
So the simple answer is, we have no idea. And
here's why certainly, but there's.
Speaker 6 (23:03):
No doubt believe that you believe that the magnitude of
that number be it, let's say, sixty thousand is wrong
and it's only thirty five thousand. Do you accept that premise?
Speaker 4 (23:15):
I'm assuming that there are thousands of people who are
have died. I get that, But let me just respond
to you in two ways. The reason that I say
we have no idea is because the statistics that are
cited come from something called the Gaza Health Ministry, which
is the Hamas Health Ministry. Now what what would that
(23:36):
actually be? Put aside for one second fact that it's Hamas.
Hamas's functionaries are not just figuratively underground, they're literally underground.
So when statistics are cited by effectively the Hamas Health
Ministry about how many people were killed and how many
were civilians and what occurred and what witnesses said, you
(23:57):
can't assume that anything.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
I don't want to debate the number. I just want
to debate the scale. Do you agree?
Speaker 4 (24:06):
I do agree that there's no reason in the world
to think that there are not thousands of deaths in Goza.
Absolutely Israel has hold on I was Second, Israel has
said that twenty to twenty five or so thousand of
them are combatans. I don't know if that's true or not.
But here's the thing, what would you or any of
(24:30):
us like Israel to do under these circumstances when the
premise is we're speaking of premises. The premise of Hamas's
attack was that when Israel responded as it no doubt
would have to, there would have to be lots of
these casualties, and there are. So if somebody has a
(24:51):
solution for a country that has been massively attacked by
an entity which is genocidal and which has vowed to
keep doing it, as they in fact did today, if
somebody has some solution to basically stop that threat without
killing civilians, regardless of all the steps to have taken,
(25:12):
somebody should put it, not just in the suggestion box,
but say it.
Speaker 6 (25:17):
And I think the only path forward, would you agree,
is that the parties need to get in rooms and
talk these things through. But oppression of people for decades
upon decades, and the fact that finally some Western governments
are joining the rest of the world and recognizing the
legitimate interests of the Palestinian people, frankly, I applaud and
(25:40):
I'm disappointed that the US is not also taking the
same steps. Don Let I ask you a question, if occurred,
I gotten them, would occurred October seventh?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I got them?
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, you do the question I have. Do you think
that Hamas has any interest in the safety, the security,
or the future of the Palestinian people in Gaza?
Speaker 6 (26:06):
I presume that they may have some tangential interest in it,
but no, I think there's a there's an endemic hatred
that that they represent. And I get that. At the
same time, you only cultivate more people to adopt the
ideology by brutalizing innocent people. And I think what Israel
has tried to do is tried to use a hammer
(26:29):
when you need, you know, a surgical, surgical application of
a solution. It's not going to be perfect. I get it.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
I condemn your bright eye when when we firebombed Dresden
during World War Two, if you had been alive, would
you would you have you seen that situation as an
I'm familiar.
Speaker 6 (26:53):
I'm familiar with it. I think in hindsight, a lot
of people feel that that was the wrong thing to do.
When we're talking about nuclear nuclear bombing in Japan, I
think the decision was made that we want to spare,
I want to spare our military as much destruction as
possible and use a horrible weapon.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Well, the estimates were that it would have cost a
million US soldiers personnel to invade Japan. And again, I'll
draw the analogy a little a little more clearly, just
as the situation that has evolved in Gaza in the
last twenty one months would never have happened in the
(27:37):
absence of October seventh, Nagasaki and Hiroshima would never have
happened in the absence of Pearl Harbor.
Speaker 6 (27:44):
It might not, but there's been a burning, a burning
passion within the Palestinian people for their own sense of
identity and freedom, and that's compelling.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Let me get let me give an opportunity to respond
to that. And then you've gone on a good amount
of time, and I'm glad you did. I'm glad you
called in. You've been a great caller, Jeff. Final comment
Flora and Dawn in Florida.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Yeah, Unfortunately, the notion that Hamas wants to mediate a
solution for two state resolution is fantasy. I'm afraid that's
the case. The attack on October seventh was for the
purpose of annihilating Jews by an organization that is doctrinally
(28:34):
committed to the obliteration of Jews and the existence of
no Jews in that land. So I applaud your idealism
and thinking that really the solution is for them to
get in the room. But it's like saying that you
know that, Frankly, that Hitler should have gotten in the
room with the allies and work this thing out sometimes
(28:57):
that he tried.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
He tried to with Neville Chamberlain didn't go. I'd worked
that way.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Right right, all right, don we gotta let you on.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
I'm sorry, thank you, I appreciate it. It's an imperfect
solution to a horrible problem. But at the same time,
the alternative is not the obliteration of the Palastinian people
in Garda.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
All right, you had final word you, thank you, don
appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Call.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Take a break. Coming right back. I'm going to get
as many of you in as I can, so please,
Debbie and Jamie and Bob and Joe, you guys stay there. Well,
we'll try to move it a little bit more quickly.
My guest is Jeff Robbins. I agree with everything Jeff
Robins has said, and I wasn't trying to be unfair
to Dawn, but I wanted to to draw out a
couple of analogies. Back on Nightside right after.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
This, You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w
B Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
I really would like to pick up the pace a
little bit because we have full lines for Jeff Robbins.
Let we go to Jamie and Sharon Janey. You're next
on Night Side with Jeff Robbins. Go right ahead. If
you get a comment or question, sure, Thank you.
Speaker 7 (30:02):
For taking me. I just want to say, as a
lifelong Democrat, I've been appalled at the ignorance that exists
from the left and also from older Democrats who need
to really an older Republicans as well, who need to
(30:26):
educate young people about the importance of Israel.
Speaker 8 (30:30):
You know, because we're so far away from World War
Two and the Holocaust, a lot of young people really
don't understand how important.
Speaker 7 (30:41):
It is to the Jewish people to have Israel and
how important it is to the United States to have a.
Speaker 8 (30:49):
Democracy like Israel in the in the Middle East.
Speaker 7 (30:54):
And you know, in terms of so I fully agree
with everything up and said I do have a question
for him that he might know more about, and that
is there is a movie, a film that was made
by Deborah Messing and other people called October eighth, and
(31:16):
it raises some questions about and he has some evidence
that actually the protests on campuses in the United States
were funded by Palestinian political organizations from the Middle East.
(31:38):
And I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
If if anyone's going to know anything about it, w'd
be Jeff. Jeff, go right ahead.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
I have seen the movie. It's a very powerful movie
and there is evidence to that effect.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Short and sweeten to the point, Janney, thank you so much.
Thank you for calling this your first time calling my show. Yes,
please continue to call. We need divorce.
Speaker 6 (32:00):
Yeah, well, thank.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
You very much. To go next to again, really good call.
Quickly to the point, Bob and West Tisbury on with
Jeff Robins, go right ahead, Bob.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Hey, Jeff, thank you. You've done a great job of
explaining the war crimes that have been committed by a
mass direct targeting of civilians, human shields, et cetera. Are
you aware of any instance where Israel has directly targeted
a civilian, or, for that matter, any single instance where
(32:33):
Israel has committed a war crime.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Well, look, the trouble is, there's just so much that's
not known. If there's any occasion, there have been, There
have been Israeli soldiers who have been disciplined, and I'm
presuming that they were disciplined precisely because they had engaged
in criminal activity. There's been a fair number of errant
(32:59):
you know, fire for example, the disastrous mistake in hitting
of this Catholic church within the last ten days or so.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
But it's not intentional about intentional any instance where Israel.
I mean, I'm trying to get at the moral clarity here.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
I've got to believe, I must believe that there are
instances in which soldiers have done that. But I can
tell you from my at least exposure to spending time
over there and then talking to the military and military lawyers,
they make a probably unprecedented effort to try to avoid
(33:38):
killing civilians. But they have killed civilians, There's no question
about it. Do I think that they are engaged in genocide,
Absolutely not. Do I think that they are individual acts.
When soldiers have done things which are probably criminal, I
am sure there are. The trouble is, it's so damn
hard to find out what the facts are because of
(33:59):
this bog of propaganda that seems to have locked so
many in.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
But if you look at the evidence that we have
what Amas has done, compared to the lack of evidence
of Israeli crimes, there's no comparison.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
There is no comparison.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Bob, i'd let you try to get one more Rian,
thanks very much for listening to us down on the venue.
Have a great night. I think we lost the man.
Let me go next to Debbie in Boston. Debbi next
on nice Side with Jeff Robins.
Speaker 9 (34:34):
Go ahead, Debbie, good evening, Jeff and Dan.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (34:38):
Thank you to both of you for having this brave conversation.
And my question sort of goes to both of you.
I mean, today's day, six hundred and sixty six. You know,
since ten to seven, these hostages are still down in
these horrific conditions. Anti anti Semitism is through the roof
(34:58):
the incidents of skyrocket it locally, nationally, globally. It's a
dangerous time. This whole issue with the New York Times
and CNN and other news media. I mean, how the
horrific photos of this past weekend with the two hostages.
You know, we saw it, but like the news media
does not lead with this. They go back to the
(35:20):
situation in Gaza, and we know that there is a situation.
We understand, but these were just posted. It was just
amazing that it was buried except for the New York Post. Anyway,
this is not balanced. How to either of you suggest
that we turn this narrative around so it's balanced and
leading with the fact that this started because the hostages. Okay,
(35:42):
because they came after us.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Great, great question, Jeff, you go first.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Well, first of all, just think about two things to
punctuate your point. Think about the fact that within minutes
of this happening on October seventh, there were organizations the
Democratic Social of America at Harvard elsewhere that we're blaming
Israel for this. And then think about the pattern of
(36:07):
the ripping down. You mentioned the hostages of posters, of
little children, or the elderly, or the infirm, or the
disabled who are being held in tunnels, the ripping down
of these hostages, and it illustrates the gravity of the
problem you describe. I don't have a magic bullet, and
all I know is that those of us who like Dan,
(36:29):
like me, like you, presumably who care about this, have
got to find some way of hammering away, notwithstanding the
fact that it runs counter to political fashion and it's
just not popular. We just have to keep saying this
stuff over and over again and hoping that somehow or
other we are able to penetrate, at least in some
(36:50):
people's minds, the perversity of what has occurred here.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I would just add real quickly, Debbie, that as somebody
has been in the media for my entire life fifty years,
there are a lot of people who come into the
news media who have sort of instinct rather than an understanding,
and their instinct often is that Israel represents the West,
Western democracy, and somehow Western democracy is flawed, and therefore
(37:18):
Israel is going to be criticized for everything that they
do that does not comply with the view the worldviewpoints
of these folks who have been in many cases brainwashed
at some of the finest colleges and universities in this country.
And one of the things that I think has been
one of the benefits, if you can call it a
(37:39):
benefit of this, is that people now are looking at
colleges and realizing how imbalanced a lot of the great
universities in this countries are in this country are that
they're out of PTRI district ideas. There're a place where
people go and unfortunately they only hear one point of view,
which is the West is bad. That's my answer. I
(38:02):
wish I had more time to expound on it. Thank you, Debbie,
I appreciate it. Jeff Robbins, thank you so much for
your time. For those of you in the line, I'd
like to continue talking about this in the next hour.
I will start with Joe and Bill and we have
a couple of open lines if you'd like. Six months
(38:22):
seven two, five, four, ten thirty, six months seven nine, three, one,
ten thirty. Jeff Robbins, thank you. Thank you as always
for your time UH and your dedication to freedom everywhere.
We'll be back right after the ten o'clock news
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