August 8, 2025 • 42 mins
High-profile celebrity attorney Alan Dershowitz got into a feud at a Martha’s Vineyard farmer’s market when a local vender would not sell him pierogis over his legal representation of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Good Pierogi co-owner Krem Miskevich said they were “legally justified” in turning Dershowitz away. The owner said they believed selling to him was equivalent to supporting his decisions and statements. We discussed more details about “Pierogi-gate” and welcome listeners’ thoughts!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZY, Boston's new.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Radio Delighted to be joined by Alan Dershowitz. Alan really
needs no introduction. An incredible defense lawyer, constitutional law expert,
defender of people. Not necessarily the best people in the world,
but that's what great lawyers do, and it's always great
to welcome Alan Dershwitz back to night Side. Alan, thanks
(00:27):
so much for joining us tonight. How are you the.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Several Well, thank you. How many years have I been
on the Dan Ray Show? How far back do we go?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Well, the radio only goes back eighteen years, but I
can remember doing things with you in television back in
the early nineteen eighties. As a matter of fact, with
Vanessa Redgrave, you may be.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
The longest standing you know, the talk show host I've
had a relationship where then I valued it because you know,
you were the voice of Boston and you were fantastic
and I always love being on your show. So thanks
for having.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Me, well my pleasure. I'm sorry about this incident, but
it does to me show that some people who think
they are the most tolerant in the world, and some
communities that pride themselves on their tolerance actually are intolerant.
You wanted to do something very simple, and that was
to go to a farmer's market on Martha's vineyard. I've
(01:22):
done that in years past, and you wanted to buy
some pirogis and tell us how it evolved. Alan. Because
you were there, you'll be able to tell us this story.
I want to hear it from you.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I've been going to this farmer's market for almost fifty years.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I came on the island to defend some obscure senator
named Ted Kennedy who has driven off a bridge in
nineteen sixty nine. That's how long I've been on the venue.
That's fifty five, fifty six years. And I've been going
to the farmer's market every single week, and I always
buy their produce. I always also buy homemade stuff. Support,
(02:00):
you know, the farmers, and support the people on the vineyard.
Sometimes I even buy stuff I don't like that much,
but you know, I always want to support everybody. So
I went over and bought this guy's parogy and I
or this person's parogey. I'm sorry, the person is a day,
so let's be careful about that. They they're parogi. And
I started talking to him because I come from, you know,
(02:21):
an Eastern European background, and my family used to make
progy all the time, and we talked and we were
very friendly. Then he found out that I was a Zionist,
tell me a parogy. I then found out that he
not only protests Zionists. He had a group of other
(02:42):
people protested a Jewish cultural event on Martha's Vineyard. They
and a bunch of other people protested the Jewish cultural
event on the vineyard, which had nothing to do with
Israeli Zionism. Its Jewish food and Jewish art, Jewish music,
Jewish comedy, and they were protesting Jews, not just Zionists.
(03:08):
And so it became clear to me the guy is
a real bigot. And then I heard from many many
other people who have had similar experiences with them that
he is, you know, an un apologetic bigot. And yet
that all right. So I go back on this a
week later after the story breaks. I go back a
(03:29):
week later, and the entire farmers market is supporting this guy,
and they're booing me, and they're screaming at me, and
they're saying, get off the island. And I go over
to him. There's a videotape that very politely, I say,
look at the interest of the community and the interest
of people being together. I'd really just like to buy
some parogi acid. You don't want to have a situation
(03:50):
where somebody opens up another parogi stand and there's a
Zionist parogy stand and an anti Zionist party stand. Let's
just have one stand. You can sell it to everybody. No,
I will not sell it to you. You cannot have
any parogi. And then he said, well, it's because of
who you represent. I said, oh, so you're defending yourself
(04:12):
against being an anti Zionist by being a mccarthyie. What
you're doing is you're punishing me because I have clients
you don't like. I've represented Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, i
represented Nelson Mandela. But yet I also did represent Donald
Trump on the floor of the Senate, and you probably
don't like that. So you know, the guy's an anti Zionist,
(04:34):
he's an anti civil libertarian, he's a McCarthyite, and yet
he's the most popular guy on Martha's Vien. Here people
come up to me now and they scream at me.
I was sitting and trying to have a slice of
pizza on the porch of the till Mark store today,
and this guy starts yelling and screaming at me. I'm terrible,
I'm miserable. And then another guy stands in front of
(04:55):
my house with a sign calling me a pedophile, and
I was falsely accused that. Then the woman retracted and
said she misidentified man. Maybe miss may have misidentified men,
but that's old news. But there's a guy standing in
front of my house with a sign this is tolerant
Martha's Vineyard. I have news for folks. If you want
to go to Martha's Vineyards and you're not a left wing, progressive,
(05:21):
woke person, just chep your mouth shut, otherwise you will
be in trouble. They won't let you on the beach,
that will tell you things you know you cannot. The
up Island Martha's Vineyard just won't tolerate anything other than being,
you know, a Liz Warren progressive, woke, anti Israel person.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
What really bothers me here? Alan, And they should address
you as Professor Dershowitz. I know you well enough, but
what really bothers me here is that this group of people,
at their core, they would believe that they're tolerant, but
just like Joe McCarthy, and it is the McCarthyism. It's
(06:05):
the reverse of McCarthyism, where they label you something they
might not even understand what the label means. But at
that point, you were not going to be blackballed from
writing movies and in Hollywood, as was McCarthy's targets. But
you are going to become you. They want you to
(06:26):
become a social outcast in a community that you've been
a vibrant part of for decades. That's that's what I.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Don't mind being a social I don't mind being a
social outcast. People have the right to decide who to
socialize with. But the chill Mark Library has banned me.
The chill Mark book there has banned me. But the
Martha's Vineyard Hebrew Center, which is a reform, anti Zionist,
left wing synagogue, we've of course created an alternative one
(06:55):
that's very good that I go to. You know the
joke about the Jew who's found on a as An
island after ten years and the only thing he's built
of two synagogues. One he goes to the other he
won't go near. So that's what's happened on Martha's vida.
There are two synagogues, one for people like me and
other for people like Peter Beinhart who doesn't believe in
Israel's right to exist as the nation state of the
(07:18):
Jewish people. We are such a divided community. You can't
have a slice of pizza on the port of the
chill Mark store without your political views, your ideological views,
your religious views becoming a divisive fact. So you know.
And it's interesting because Nantucket is much more tolerant. And
(07:38):
Nantucket has a lot of you know, Republicans, Democrats, but
chill Mark Up Island, Massachusetts is the most intolerant place
I've ever lived them. Going to be eighty seven years
old next month. So I've lived a long life in
a lot of different places. I had never seen the
intolerance I see on up Islands. Martha's nu.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Let me ask you just a legal question here, and
that is that much of the civil rights legislation in
our country broke through by utilizing the commerce clause, meaning
if you are advertising for commerce, and you cannot discriminate
(08:21):
against people based upon the immutable characteristics. And I understand
what we mean by immutable characteristics. So if you decide
I'm not going to sell to black people, that's there's
a constitutional rights issue there. Now, how do we get
your case into that category. He's going to argue that
(08:41):
he doesn't like your quote unquote political views. But at
the base of your political views is a religious belief.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, I know you're an A plus student there. Wish
you were one of my students. You hit the nail exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I wish I had been one of your students as well.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
All now, a number of states and the District of
Columbia have included political views as a protected class. Some
have not. Massachusetts says you can't discriminate against somebody because
there Israeli, but it doesn't say anything about Zionism. Now,
(09:18):
for me, my Zionism grows out of my Judaism. You know,
Judaism requires you to pray pointing to Jerusalem. The Star
of David is the symbol, the Benora is the symbol.
The flag of Israel is based on a talit, a
Jewish parasol. So Zionism is integral in the Jewish huison
got old Jesus Zionists, not old Jews kosher. But can
(09:39):
you imagine a parogi stand saying we will not serve
anybody who's kosher, or anybody who wears a key pa,
or anybody who you know, or or a stand that
says we will not serve people who go to Mass.
You know, not all Catholics go to Mass, a lot
of them do, or we will not we will not
(10:00):
serve feminists, the old women of feminists. So I think
it's a close case. And the head of the Farmer's
Market agrees with me, and he's pushing very hard to
get the Farmer's Market to pass its own internal rule yes,
saying that you can only have a booth at the
Farmer's Market if you're willing to serve anybody without regard
(10:23):
to their political views, their religious views, of other views.
And we think that will pass. But there are some
vendors on the Farmer's Market who are against that.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Well that I happen to have a copy of the
Martha's venued On Times article by Yunki Siono of August sixth,
and you're correct, there are. There's one woman who runs
a town at a stand at the Old Town Gardens
(10:55):
and Edgar Town said a decision shouldn't be made until
all the Vengors have a chance to vote the Europeans,
and a vote, I think, you know, it takes away
one of our rights. So she's implying that one of
her rights is, I think, not to serve people.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Liberal justices in the Supreme Court, the liberal justices, the liberals.
Now they're the ones who said there is no right
not to sell people. That was in the cake case,
the gay cake case. So it was the liberals who
said there is no constitutional right not to sell. If
you're a vendor, you have to sell. If you're a sore,
you have to sell. But now liberals on Martha's vineyards
(11:37):
are asserting a right that the three liberal justices don't assert.
Only because it's a Jew and a Zionist. I guarantee
you that if this were a feminist, if this were
anybody else, the same people would be saying, oh no,
no vendor has a right not to sell people, just
like no hotel has the right not to accommodate people
if they're black, or if they're gay or anything. So
(12:00):
this is an interesting case. And if the farmer's market
doesn't change its rules, see it in court. We'll see
what the Massachusetts Sprain Judicial Court says about that, and
the federal courts say about that. But we're not going
to leave it alone. We're not going to let bigotry prevail.
Even if everybody up island in Ruth's vineyard wants bigotry
(12:22):
to prevail, Even if I'm the only one who's fighting that,
I'm gonna fade it to the end.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Of course, they don't see this bigotry in that Colorado case.
I think what they said was that, you know, prepared
cakes have to be available to the public, irrespective of
whether they're gay, et cetera. I think they they did
have an artist's exception if someone came in and asked
them to make a specific.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And that's the right decision. And that's the decision if
I had asked him, I want parogi that says Zionism
is correct, or you know, go for Israel. Okay, he
is the right not to do that. But the damn
parogi was sitting on the counter. They're plain ordinary parogi.
I just said I want six of them. He said, nope,
(13:06):
no parogi for you, says the Parogi Nazi from Seinfeld.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
That well, and and that's not the point. The point
is everybody supports him on the vineyard. He's the most
popular guy. When the next farmer's market comes around, there's
going to be lies around the block for his very
mediocre parogy. And people have told me they don't like
it parogy, but they want to buy it because they
want to show that they support this biggot. Can you
(13:33):
imagine the same people standing online to support somebody who
wouldn't who wouldn't sell the age or transgender people.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, they want, they want to stand firmly in supportive intolerance,
as long as they agree with the intolerance in question.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Absolutely, as long as it's their intolerance, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Hell, and I told you that I I'd let you
go quickly. I got a couple of callers here already,
I'm sure who want to say something nice.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
My callers say something not nice. They have First Amendment
right now.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
No, I understand that, I do what I do. Understand that.
But but as I say, let us not confuse. And
of course you know this better than anyone. This is really,
at its heart a commerce clause issue. As far as
I'm concerned, you're going to open up a stand whether
or not you're going to sell. You know, Jaguar Automobiles
across the country. You're going to sell Prorogi's on Martha's vineyard.
(14:24):
I'm telling you you can't do what was done to you,
and they picked the wrong guy. If you, I promise,
I'll let you go in six minutes. Okay, you got
to get six.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
More minutes for us, of course, for you.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Let me go to Matt real quickly. Matt. I'm going
to get you in here with my good friend Alan Dershowitz.
I'm going to ask you to ask a question, make
a quick comment. Go right ahead, Matt.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
First off, because you're Schwitz, I.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Am right on your side. Thank you for what you do.
Thank you for doing that. And I know because I've
had you and that you and k I write in
Brookline Rommie's will always serve you a great Neil, And
I'm sorry that happened to you, but thank you for
standing up.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
All right, thank you.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Matt. Now offered me so many people now offered me
perogi and brought me parogi, and I actually brought one
of the prog with me to the market to give
to him, but he wouldn't take it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So I watched I watched the video. You also offered
him a book, which I'm sure it was First Amendment related.
I couldn't see the title in the video. Uh. And
and they weren't even open minded to accept a book.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
No.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I offered it to them free. I signed it to
them in the interests of community, but he wouldn't take it.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I appreciate you talk very much. Rob. I know we're
supposed to do commercials, but we're going to push them over. Okay,
Elan Dersher, which his time is too important for me.
Let me go to fill in Boston. Fill you next
on Night Side with a go ahead, Phil, I am
so sorry.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
I mean I decided to buy. I mean, what is
no soup for you, no parogi for you? All of
a suddenly you're a mock guy. The sad thing is,
I want to understand you defend these people that do this.
And I don't know how his psychology. You don't you
can psychologically affect people, but you somehow.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I don't think he would defend this, this particular individual,
but I.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Would defend him. I would defend his writer. Free speech. Yes,
so I defended Nazis, I've defended communists, I've beginded anti
israel people, and I would defend him if somebody. In fact,
what happened is when somebody came in front of a
house and started calling me names and everything. The police said,
we'd be happy to stop wins and no, he has
(16:53):
a First Amendment right. And the same thing with the
parogi person. Uh they police, uh ask me whether I
wanted to do something. I said, no, let him speak,
let him have his point right, just have him sell
me the dann parogi.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
But Alan, let me make sure that I want Ellen.
Let me make sure again he's not claiming, uh, you know,
a First Amendment right here. He can say whatever he
can say. I hate Alan Durst, which I hate everything
he stands for. But what we're talking about is I
don't know that you would defend his right not to
sell his product.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't, nor nor would I defend
his right to discriminate against you know, black people with
gay people of course.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, no, that's exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, that's half with people.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to I just wanted to
clarify that because they didn't want people to come away.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
I'm sorry, I'm just you know, I just this guy
gave me a strong personality. I'm telling you, I give
you a lot of credit. And eighty seven years old,
you defend the people, but you just got on the
law school. You saved that guy life. And some young
believe I'm sorry you're a small island.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
No, don't feel sorry for me. I'm you know, I
have a thick skin. My wife gets very upset about.
She loves me so much as she hates when people
call me names and yell at me when I'm trying
to get a slice of pizza, stand in front of
the house and call me names. They have the right,
but I have the right to condemn them for doing
it as well.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
And so I don't think that. I think that the
down deep, Alan realizes he's standing up for principal. And
Alan has always started for principal. And that's and he
I'm going to say this, I think he enjoys it.
He stood there today with a bleeding crowd of a
bleeding b L E A T I N G crowd
of individuals who, uh, you know, just we're not willing
(18:47):
even to hear the argument themselves. So it'll be it'll
be interesting. Phil.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I don't enjoy I find I find it necessary to
do but I don't enjoy it. It's nice to be liked,
but I'm prepared to sacrifice that for principles. So thank
you for having me on. Thank you for giving me
an opportunity to explain this, and I hope people will,
you know, support the right of everybody to say what
(19:12):
they want, but not the right to refuse to sell
commercial products to people of whose politics, or whose clients
or who's religious. So thank you very much, thank you, Thanks,
take care.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Thank you for your time, and please you are always
welcome on this program. You know that. I thank you
for getting back to me as quickly as you did today.
I am a mron respect the integrity that you have
shown for a lifetime, So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Well, thank you too, you too, you well bank.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Alan Durshowitz. Okay, now we're going to do We're going
to take a little bit of an extended break here.
If you heard the conversation, I'm inviting you to call
six one seven four ten thirty six one seven nine
thirty whether you agree or not with Alan Dershowitz. I'll
give Rob a chance to catch up a little bit
(20:09):
of the commercials. We actually blew through a commercial break
which we rarely do, but I felt that it was important.
And Rob, we can go to the news and you
can have a little bit of an extended brake. In
the meantime, what love people to light up the lines
will be done with this topic, but I want to
talk about it. I want to talk about the intolerance
(20:29):
of people who truly believe they are the most tolerance tolerant.
And Martha's Vineyard has a for some reason, there's something
over in the I don't know over there something in
the water that makes them so intolerant. They look at
Alan Dershowitz and they say, you've defended OJ Simpson, You've
(20:50):
defended the Donald Trump, You've defended whatever, and therefore that
makes you And of course you're also a Zionist. That's
that became a big part of it as well. And
I hope you understand the distinction and the difference here
that once you get involved, this is a This is
a question not of the speech of the The person
(21:12):
who refused to sell it was their unwillingness to do
what all Americans are supposed to do. Once they hang
out a plaque saying that we're prepared to sell a product,
they cannot discriminate based upon well, certainly religion, but I
(21:32):
think it goes beyond that. I think that there is
an obligation. It would It could sound silly, but if
you had someone who said, look, I'm a Yankee fan,
and I have and there are a lot of Yankee
fans by the way, and Martha's Vineyard Watts, if they
say I'm not going to sell to Red Sox fans,
people would understand that this is an important principle. Could
(21:56):
Alan dersch which go I found perrogis elsewhere? Oh? Absolutely,
no question. But if you are in commerce in America,
you do not have a right to withhold your product
when you hold it out for sale, certainly in my opinion,
under the commerce clause, and also particularly when there is
(22:18):
the veneer the potential veneer of some form of religious persecution, prosecution.
We'll be back on the Nightside. Let's light these lines up.
Coming right back after this.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It's Nightside with Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Let's get a point of view from Theodore down in
Baltimore Theater. Are you next on Nightside? I wish it
called early could have got you on with Alan Drshowitz.
All you got left is me buddy, go ahead.
Speaker 6 (22:47):
Well, first of all, he's a great, great lawyer, and
I dare say you not name the default. Your level
of lawyering and skill is just is good. So it's
just like talking to him when I'm talking to you.
Although my search for the elusive uh uh salary a
(23:09):
millionaires ago, if you are still the one, however, we'll
we'll put the suicide. I wasn't going to ask the
question like this, Dan and to and to you and
mister Dorsher, which I'm anna African American. They're going to
re establish refit, rebuild a statue to mister Pike that
(23:29):
was taken down in DC after the uh uh. Lloyd
the the the young man who was killed in the
riots during that time. George Floyd said yes, George Floyd. Now,
if I were to file a suit saying I don't
want my tax money used for this purpose because technically
(23:50):
he was a trader, though many of them were reinstated,
would I have a little leg to stand on.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I don't know if you would have a leg to
stand up, but I think you have a cause of action, okay.
I I think that you could make that argument, whether
or not you'd prevail on it. Tell me a little
bit more about this fellow Pike. Was he a Southern general.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
Yes, it was the Southern General, and I think he
was very principal. Indn't having started the uh the ku
Klux Klan and they're going to his attatute was torn
down doing the uh the uh the the the disturbances
based after George Floyd.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, no, I understand that. Yeah, I don't know enough
about who that I'm not. I'm aware that we had
UH men who became United States presidents who owned slaves. Yes,
that's obviously Thomas Jefferson. I don't know that if you
wanted to remove the Jefferson memorial, if that would be allowed.
(24:56):
I think that that that there was and under standable
reaction in the wake of the George Floyd situation where
people were looking at situation at situations there there are streets,
and there are roads, and there are schools named after
Jefferson and rights.
Speaker 6 (25:15):
But at base my my my cause of action would be,
I do not want my text wanting to use used
to refit and redisplay a man who was a trader
to the country.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Okay, so let's assume you prevailed on that Okay, Yes,
I have no idea what it would take to take
a a statue out of storage. Okay, but I assume
we're talking about a relatively small amount of money. Let's
(25:49):
say it took five thousand dollars to move this. They're
not talking about building the statue that there are creating
the statue, talking about moving it out. You know, one
way in which I guess you could assert your right
is that they could do some sort of calculation as
to what percentage of the cost of that statute would
(26:12):
represent you and maybe be smarted to file a class
action lawsuit and to try to up the ante. But
I think that, you know, the flip side of that
would be if there was someone who was a relative
of this guy who didn't want the statue to be removed,
(26:38):
maybe he could have made the opposite argument from you
and said, well, I'm a relative. I don't know if
this guy was a general or whatever, and I don't
think it is fair for, you know, for my tax
dollars to be used to remove the statue of my
ancestor in that hypothetical situation.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Well, then you really really help me out with that.
And I have to tell someone I know that these
billionaires they're talking about that mister Trump is supporting him
at who's running him? That I was able to talk
to one tonight from Boston, And I hope.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
You're not telling them that I'm a billionaire.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
Oh well, because I won't let it out. I won't
let it out there.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
They would be very disappointed if they ever saw my
my sav these accounts. But that's neither here or there.
Could you could depict me in any way you want,
my friend, how have you been done everything? Okay?
Speaker 6 (27:33):
I hope as well as can be expected for someone
seventy six years old.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
Well, and Dan, I will say this, if the wisdom
I have now could have been a clout when I
was younger, it'd be a whole different world. But God
is good anyway.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
God is good. That's one thing that you and I
agree upon, although a lot of my listeners probably would
disagree with that. I think you know, God is good
and the only art I think we both agree and
it is getting old surface over and.
Speaker 6 (28:02):
If and if those Bumps that play at Gillette Stadium
meet the Ravens this year, it's going to be a beatdown.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
So you know, well, they had a pretty good night tonight.
So but I I I want to see how how
it all plays out. They looked. The Patriots did look
good tonight. They handled the common to us. But anybody
who puts much weight in in preseason football games, I
(28:30):
think will be solf.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
It's a half show. But I will say this, I
have to alert my pigeon friends that there's a new
statue up there of someone who wore number twelve, and
they would be very well inclined to rest and do
their duty on that statue.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
So I understand your frustration having well, it's to mister
Bernie so many times. Thank you have a great weekend. Okay,
you stay cool? Thanks? Are I going to take a
break here? We did speak with Alan Durswitz. I have
a little bit of the sound of the confrontation that
(29:09):
Alan had with this perogi dealer, and I want to
play it. I didn't want to play it while Alan
was with us because it really would have been insulting
to him. But this is him approaching the stand and
offering a book. And again, the issue here is that
(29:31):
many folks really believe that they are so tolerant, and
I find intolerance now much more on the far left
even it exists on the far right, there's no question
that is a commonality. But even amongst you know, people
on the vineyard, who are for the most part, well educated,
(29:55):
fairly comfortable financially, if not very comfortable financially, they cannot
tolerate people amongst them who might view the world somewhat differently.
Alan Dershowitz, as a lawyer, has an obligation to make
(30:16):
sure that the government, in any prosecution of a defendant,
fulfills their obligations to prove all the elements of the
crime beyond a reasonable doubt. It's not a game. It's
something that lawyers take quite seriously, and lawyers of his
stature take it very seriously. Why people cannot understand that
(30:42):
is way beyond me? Uh six seven two five four
ten thirty six seven nine three one ten thirty. I
got some open lines here, so I'm going to play
right now. Cut thirty three will end on cut thirty three.
This gives you a sense of what the conversation, if
you want to call it, that went as Alan Derschwitz
approached this Parogi stand Wednesday of this week, the same
(31:04):
stand that had denied him service a week ago Wednesday,
Uh and he offered, I thought, you know a bit
of a peace offering. And the person who uses the
pronoun day and them you'll you'll hear Alan corrected by
(31:27):
that person, and I believe in that Scott and he
he understands and acknowledges the correction and apologizes. Allan acted
as a complete gentleman, as he always does, confident and
confident in the law, in articulate. And yet this is
how it went cut thirty three. Please, Robin, you will
(31:48):
go back to trying to restore community and to ask
you to sell me prog and the interest of keeping
the island together.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Two stands one for anti ziem and you will sell
that yourself. And ask you to please just show me
any one of your products, to show that you're prepared
to sell it to anybody and not allow your anti
Zionism to sorry which.
Speaker 7 (32:15):
People this man is calling me an unto Zionists. This
excuse me.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
This man is the same. I also want more for
you this book which no thank you signed it to you.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
Thank you so much, thank you so much. I am
very surprised that you're here because of the things that
you've been saying about us and the business online well,
good is our business and kind scimitch is me and
I really don't matter.
Speaker 8 (32:45):
Appreciate what you've been sharing from the last week since
Is it true.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w B
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Back to the phones, we go to Chris in Plymouth.
Next Chris, you and next on Nightsicker.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Right ahead, Hey, Dan, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 7 (33:03):
Absolute pleasure, love your show.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Thank you appreciate the kind words. So what are your
thoughts on what Alan dersha was is being subjected to
here on the the the Island of maximum tolerance Martha's Vineyard.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
Dan, you know, I got a lot of opinions, but
here's mine about this. I have a solution to the
different gender bathroom policy. You want to hear it.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
It's sure fantastic.
Speaker 7 (33:34):
I think it's inclusive. I think it includes everybody, and
I think it's uh, it just makes sense anatomically, if
you will.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Okay, I don't know how that relates to what we're
talking about, but go ahead.
Speaker 7 (33:47):
Well here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
There's a lot of problems.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
We're going with this.
Speaker 7 (33:50):
Okay, I will, I will, I will, I mean with
the most respects.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
But again, how does this relate to the parogi gate
we're talking about here.
Speaker 7 (34:00):
Because if you don't, it's just one way or the other.
And that's the way that you get everybody included. It's
whatever you want to do, everybody's included, everybody feels comfortable,
and that's how that's a way to solve the problem.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
But what I'm saying is with the parogy idea here
is Durswitch goes to this farmer's market all the time.
He wants to buy parogi's. He could have wanted to
buy beef steak tomatoes. I've been to that market many times,
not many times, but I've been to similar, similar type
of places you go through and most of the time
(34:35):
that things are somewhat overpriced. Sometimes you can haggle a
little bit and say, gee, I don't want to pay
fourteen dollars for that for two brownies or whatever. What
about ten dollars for two Okay? Fine, But they said no,
we're not going to sell it to you. And he
believes that that they did want to sell it to
(34:56):
him because he happens to be something what he considers
to be a zion, which is, you know, part of Judaism.
Uh and and he feels that that he he was
mistreated because of his religious belief. And if if somebody
(35:16):
looked at me and saw me wearing a crucifix and said,
I don't sell the people who wear crucifixes. I mean,
this is such an easy question. Sell the damn parogis
and be done with it.
Speaker 7 (35:29):
I couldn't agree more. Damn. Listen, everybody's got to be
respected for their own opinions, for their own ways of being,
and especially when it comes to religious freedoms, we have
to respect that. We got to keep it out of
the government and well, we've got to keep it into
people's personal lives. And that's what people deserve. They deserve
to be able to have the freedom to buy parogis
(35:53):
whenever they want, and they shouldn't be discriminated against for
want of PAROCHI all right.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
We're the same page on this one. All right, Thanks Chris,
go ahead.
Speaker 7 (36:08):
I said, thanks so much for having me on.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Dan.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I love your show.
Speaker 8 (36:11):
I love your program, and I love how inclusive you
are always of everybody's opinions. You always have everybody on
to let their opinions fly and let everybody say what
they want to say.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
And I think they.
Speaker 7 (36:24):
Want parogis in one way or another, they should be
able to get there.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
You have freedom, all right, you got it, you got it.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
You're fixated in that. Thanks Chris, have a great weekend,
Have a great night.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Good night.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Let me go next to Bill in Pennsylvania. Bill, I
got you in one more. I'd like to get both
of the in. Go ahead, Bill.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I'm surprised it isn't tell Alan just go home and
make your own.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Well, that's there's a principle involved here. I'm sure he
probably could go home, probably make better parogies than we're
being sold. But you get involved in interstate commerce in America,
you you have to. You know, you've heard the saying
the customer is always right, right, that is is part
(37:09):
of what you know. Once you get involved in interstate commerce,
you can't turn around and say, I'm not going to
sell it to you because I don't like what you
believe in or I don't believe this.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
This vendor actually knows who Alan is.
Speaker 7 (37:24):
Of course, Okay, that makes.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
It even worse because they I mean, Alan's going to
assume him right, Uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
But maybe the vendors looking forward to it. I mean
I think that right, that Alan's first tact is to
make sure that the by laws of the market are adjusted.
So you know this is if you've ever been to
a market on March's vineyard, they basically sell stuff that
(37:55):
they grow for the most part.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
And now I never I never been there, but I
want to visit. Hey, Dan, did you notice that you
mentioned the left? Okay? Did you have you noticed the
last year or so, it's really got worse that the left.
When you when you meet with them, or you know,
run into them, they never want to They never want
to debate anything. Now they used to be big mouths.
(38:19):
Now all of a sudden they just clam up. They
don't want to.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Well, they they are again people who consider themselves. They
would tell you that the most tolerant people in the world.
Remember Martha Vinion was the place that welcomed the migrants
that Governor DeSantis had flown up there.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
For ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Well it was a little long. In the ten minutes.
It was about thirty six hours or maybe less thirty hours,
and they put them on buses through Cape Card. All right,
I want to get one more in man, Okay. I
normally give you more time, but I make an exception here,
bear with me. Okay, all this.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
All started with Hillary saying about the deplora bulls. That's
where this where it all.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yep. A lot of people believe that you're a deplorable person,
Bill because of your viewpoints. I do not believe you
are welcome. All right, Thanks, thanks very much, Bill, Have
a go on. Let me go to John in New Hampshire. John,
you were next on Nightside. Go right ahead, you're gonna
wrap the hour first, John.
Speaker 9 (39:14):
Fantastic. Nice talk to you.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Dan. You know, I find it. Thank you.
Speaker 9 (39:18):
I appreciate that. I think it's kind of a multi
layered when you look at it. I think certainly the
far left and the far right have gone absolutely crazy
both ways that you look at it.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yep.
Speaker 9 (39:29):
But I do think ethically there are times in business
that we make choices not to deal with people.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Now.
Speaker 9 (39:36):
I don't think that it's right that what they did
to Professor Derschwitz at all, but I thought the way
that he handled it this way was the best way
to handle it. Where if someone is going to act
that way in business, the best way to shut that
down is to put the word out there and let
people make the choice.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Well, give me an example of a way in which so,
for example, let us say that I don't know you're
a contractor of some sort and and you're going to
buy supplies or something. You tell me how how could
it work? I mean, when you put yourself out, did
(40:14):
you are selling products? A product you know, whether it's
tomatoes apple. Yeah.
Speaker 9 (40:23):
I agree with all of that one hundred percent. And
if there was only one person selling pogis across that
entire span, then certainly there would be something to it
to say that you're restricting people's use of that product.
But the better answer to that is somebody else can
do it better, and we should chastise this person for
(40:43):
their attitude towards other people and we put them out
of business.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
That way it right.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
But that argument was made when there were racist hotels
which did not want to accommodate black people, and they said, well,
we want you to stay here, but there are other
hotel tells it will take you. That's the principle is
what's important you engage in the state.
Speaker 9 (41:06):
But when we're talking about that, what we're talking about
is when we talk about a Zionist belief, it's an
ethical belief.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
It's according according to it's much more according.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
To it.
Speaker 9 (41:20):
Either way, I have no dog in the fight either way,
And certainly Professor Dershow has said himself that within the
own to their own community, there is a dispute of
whether there should be Zionism or anti Zionism.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Again, I think you missed the point, John, with all
due respect, and we're talking over each other. He was
essentially trying to say that that his belief in Zionism
is deeply rooted in his religion of Judaism, and that
would be part of the argument that he would make. Hey,
I'm flat up against that. I got to let you go.
(41:54):
I got you in, John, but I gotta move right.
Thank you. Twentyeth hour coming up, going to ask you
about what hobbies did you have as a child and
did they continue with you when you left when you
emerged into adulthood. It suggested to me last night, let's
take it up.
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZY, Boston's new.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Radio Delighted to be joined by Alan Dershowitz. Alan really
needs no introduction. An incredible defense lawyer, constitutional law expert,
defender of people. Not necessarily the best people in the world,
but that's what great lawyers do, and it's always great
to welcome Alan Dershwitz back to night Side. Alan, thanks
(00:27):
so much for joining us tonight. How are you the.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Several Well, thank you. How many years have I been
on the Dan Ray Show? How far back do we go?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Well, the radio only goes back eighteen years, but I
can remember doing things with you in television back in
the early nineteen eighties. As a matter of fact, with
Vanessa Redgrave, you may be.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
The longest standing you know, the talk show host I've
had a relationship where then I valued it because you know,
you were the voice of Boston and you were fantastic
and I always love being on your show. So thanks
for having.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Me, well my pleasure. I'm sorry about this incident, but
it does to me show that some people who think
they are the most tolerant in the world, and some
communities that pride themselves on their tolerance actually are intolerant.
You wanted to do something very simple, and that was
to go to a farmer's market on Martha's vineyard. I've
(01:22):
done that in years past, and you wanted to buy
some pirogis and tell us how it evolved. Alan. Because
you were there, you'll be able to tell us this story.
I want to hear it from you.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I've been going to this farmer's market for almost fifty years.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I came on the island to defend some obscure senator
named Ted Kennedy who has driven off a bridge in
nineteen sixty nine. That's how long I've been on the venue.
That's fifty five, fifty six years. And I've been going
to the farmer's market every single week, and I always
buy their produce. I always also buy homemade stuff. Support,
(02:00):
you know, the farmers, and support the people on the vineyard.
Sometimes I even buy stuff I don't like that much,
but you know, I always want to support everybody. So
I went over and bought this guy's parogy and I
or this person's parogey. I'm sorry, the person is a day,
so let's be careful about that. They they're parogi. And
I started talking to him because I come from, you know,
(02:21):
an Eastern European background, and my family used to make
progy all the time, and we talked and we were
very friendly. Then he found out that I was a Zionist,
tell me a parogy. I then found out that he
not only protests Zionists. He had a group of other
(02:42):
people protested a Jewish cultural event on Martha's Vineyard. They
and a bunch of other people protested the Jewish cultural
event on the vineyard, which had nothing to do with
Israeli Zionism. Its Jewish food and Jewish art, Jewish music,
Jewish comedy, and they were protesting Jews, not just Zionists.
(03:08):
And so it became clear to me the guy is
a real bigot. And then I heard from many many
other people who have had similar experiences with them that
he is, you know, an un apologetic bigot. And yet
that all right. So I go back on this a
week later after the story breaks. I go back a
(03:29):
week later, and the entire farmers market is supporting this guy,
and they're booing me, and they're screaming at me, and
they're saying, get off the island. And I go over
to him. There's a videotape that very politely, I say,
look at the interest of the community and the interest
of people being together. I'd really just like to buy
some parogi acid. You don't want to have a situation
(03:50):
where somebody opens up another parogi stand and there's a
Zionist parogy stand and an anti Zionist party stand. Let's
just have one stand. You can sell it to everybody. No,
I will not sell it to you. You cannot have
any parogi. And then he said, well, it's because of
who you represent. I said, oh, so you're defending yourself
(04:12):
against being an anti Zionist by being a mccarthyie. What
you're doing is you're punishing me because I have clients
you don't like. I've represented Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, i
represented Nelson Mandela. But yet I also did represent Donald
Trump on the floor of the Senate, and you probably
don't like that. So you know, the guy's an anti Zionist,
(04:34):
he's an anti civil libertarian, he's a McCarthyite, and yet
he's the most popular guy on Martha's Vien. Here people
come up to me now and they scream at me.
I was sitting and trying to have a slice of
pizza on the porch of the till Mark store today,
and this guy starts yelling and screaming at me. I'm terrible,
I'm miserable. And then another guy stands in front of
(04:55):
my house with a sign calling me a pedophile, and
I was falsely accused that. Then the woman retracted and
said she misidentified man. Maybe miss may have misidentified men,
but that's old news. But there's a guy standing in
front of my house with a sign this is tolerant
Martha's Vineyard. I have news for folks. If you want
to go to Martha's Vineyards and you're not a left wing, progressive,
(05:21):
woke person, just chep your mouth shut, otherwise you will
be in trouble. They won't let you on the beach,
that will tell you things you know you cannot. The
up Island Martha's Vineyard just won't tolerate anything other than being,
you know, a Liz Warren progressive, woke, anti Israel person.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
What really bothers me here? Alan, And they should address
you as Professor Dershowitz. I know you well enough, but
what really bothers me here is that this group of people,
at their core, they would believe that they're tolerant, but
just like Joe McCarthy, and it is the McCarthyism. It's
(06:05):
the reverse of McCarthyism, where they label you something they
might not even understand what the label means. But at
that point, you were not going to be blackballed from
writing movies and in Hollywood, as was McCarthy's targets. But
you are going to become you. They want you to
(06:26):
become a social outcast in a community that you've been
a vibrant part of for decades. That's that's what I.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Don't mind being a social I don't mind being a
social outcast. People have the right to decide who to
socialize with. But the chill Mark Library has banned me.
The chill Mark book there has banned me. But the
Martha's Vineyard Hebrew Center, which is a reform, anti Zionist,
left wing synagogue, we've of course created an alternative one
(06:55):
that's very good that I go to. You know the
joke about the Jew who's found on a as An
island after ten years and the only thing he's built
of two synagogues. One he goes to the other he
won't go near. So that's what's happened on Martha's vida.
There are two synagogues, one for people like me and
other for people like Peter Beinhart who doesn't believe in
Israel's right to exist as the nation state of the
(07:18):
Jewish people. We are such a divided community. You can't
have a slice of pizza on the port of the
chill Mark store without your political views, your ideological views,
your religious views becoming a divisive fact. So you know.
And it's interesting because Nantucket is much more tolerant. And
(07:38):
Nantucket has a lot of you know, Republicans, Democrats, but
chill Mark Up Island, Massachusetts is the most intolerant place
I've ever lived them. Going to be eighty seven years
old next month. So I've lived a long life in
a lot of different places. I had never seen the
intolerance I see on up Islands. Martha's nu.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Let me ask you just a legal question here, and
that is that much of the civil rights legislation in
our country broke through by utilizing the commerce clause, meaning
if you are advertising for commerce, and you cannot discriminate
(08:21):
against people based upon the immutable characteristics. And I understand
what we mean by immutable characteristics. So if you decide
I'm not going to sell to black people, that's there's
a constitutional rights issue there. Now, how do we get
your case into that category. He's going to argue that
(08:41):
he doesn't like your quote unquote political views. But at
the base of your political views is a religious belief.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, I know you're an A plus student there. Wish
you were one of my students. You hit the nail exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I wish I had been one of your students as well.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
All now, a number of states and the District of
Columbia have included political views as a protected class. Some
have not. Massachusetts says you can't discriminate against somebody because
there Israeli, but it doesn't say anything about Zionism. Now,
(09:18):
for me, my Zionism grows out of my Judaism. You know,
Judaism requires you to pray pointing to Jerusalem. The Star
of David is the symbol, the Benora is the symbol.
The flag of Israel is based on a talit, a
Jewish parasol. So Zionism is integral in the Jewish huison
got old Jesus Zionists, not old Jews kosher. But can
(09:39):
you imagine a parogi stand saying we will not serve
anybody who's kosher, or anybody who wears a key pa,
or anybody who you know, or or a stand that
says we will not serve people who go to Mass.
You know, not all Catholics go to Mass, a lot
of them do, or we will not we will not
(10:00):
serve feminists, the old women of feminists. So I think
it's a close case. And the head of the Farmer's
Market agrees with me, and he's pushing very hard to
get the Farmer's Market to pass its own internal rule yes,
saying that you can only have a booth at the
Farmer's Market if you're willing to serve anybody without regard
(10:23):
to their political views, their religious views, of other views.
And we think that will pass. But there are some
vendors on the Farmer's Market who are against that.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Well that I happen to have a copy of the
Martha's venued On Times article by Yunki Siono of August sixth,
and you're correct, there are. There's one woman who runs
a town at a stand at the Old Town Gardens
(10:55):
and Edgar Town said a decision shouldn't be made until
all the Vengors have a chance to vote the Europeans,
and a vote, I think, you know, it takes away
one of our rights. So she's implying that one of
her rights is, I think, not to serve people.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Liberal justices in the Supreme Court, the liberal justices, the liberals.
Now they're the ones who said there is no right
not to sell people. That was in the cake case,
the gay cake case. So it was the liberals who
said there is no constitutional right not to sell. If
you're a vendor, you have to sell. If you're a sore,
you have to sell. But now liberals on Martha's vineyards
(11:37):
are asserting a right that the three liberal justices don't assert.
Only because it's a Jew and a Zionist. I guarantee
you that if this were a feminist, if this were
anybody else, the same people would be saying, oh no,
no vendor has a right not to sell people, just
like no hotel has the right not to accommodate people
if they're black, or if they're gay or anything. So
(12:00):
this is an interesting case. And if the farmer's market
doesn't change its rules, see it in court. We'll see
what the Massachusetts Sprain Judicial Court says about that, and
the federal courts say about that. But we're not going
to leave it alone. We're not going to let bigotry prevail.
Even if everybody up island in Ruth's vineyard wants bigotry
(12:22):
to prevail, Even if I'm the only one who's fighting that,
I'm gonna fade it to the end.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Of course, they don't see this bigotry in that Colorado case.
I think what they said was that, you know, prepared
cakes have to be available to the public, irrespective of
whether they're gay, et cetera. I think they they did
have an artist's exception if someone came in and asked
them to make a specific.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And that's the right decision. And that's the decision if
I had asked him, I want parogi that says Zionism
is correct, or you know, go for Israel. Okay, he
is the right not to do that. But the damn
parogi was sitting on the counter. They're plain ordinary parogi.
I just said I want six of them. He said, nope,
(13:06):
no parogi for you, says the Parogi Nazi from Seinfeld.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
That well, and and that's not the point. The point
is everybody supports him on the vineyard. He's the most
popular guy. When the next farmer's market comes around, there's
going to be lies around the block for his very
mediocre parogy. And people have told me they don't like
it parogy, but they want to buy it because they
want to show that they support this biggot. Can you
(13:33):
imagine the same people standing online to support somebody who
wouldn't who wouldn't sell the age or transgender people.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, they want, they want to stand firmly in supportive intolerance,
as long as they agree with the intolerance in question.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Absolutely, as long as it's their intolerance, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Hell, and I told you that I I'd let you
go quickly. I got a couple of callers here already,
I'm sure who want to say something nice.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
My callers say something not nice. They have First Amendment
right now.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
No, I understand that, I do what I do. Understand that.
But but as I say, let us not confuse. And
of course you know this better than anyone. This is really,
at its heart a commerce clause issue. As far as
I'm concerned, you're going to open up a stand whether
or not you're going to sell. You know, Jaguar Automobiles
across the country. You're going to sell Prorogi's on Martha's vineyard.
(14:24):
I'm telling you you can't do what was done to you,
and they picked the wrong guy. If you, I promise,
I'll let you go in six minutes. Okay, you got
to get six.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
More minutes for us, of course, for you.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Let me go to Matt real quickly. Matt. I'm going
to get you in here with my good friend Alan Dershowitz.
I'm going to ask you to ask a question, make
a quick comment. Go right ahead, Matt.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
First off, because you're Schwitz, I.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Am right on your side. Thank you for what you do.
Thank you for doing that. And I know because I've
had you and that you and k I write in
Brookline Rommie's will always serve you a great Neil, And
I'm sorry that happened to you, but thank you for
standing up.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
All right, thank you.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Matt. Now offered me so many people now offered me
perogi and brought me parogi, and I actually brought one
of the prog with me to the market to give
to him, but he wouldn't take it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So I watched I watched the video. You also offered
him a book, which I'm sure it was First Amendment related.
I couldn't see the title in the video. Uh. And
and they weren't even open minded to accept a book.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
No.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I offered it to them free. I signed it to
them in the interests of community, but he wouldn't take it.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I appreciate you talk very much. Rob. I know we're
supposed to do commercials, but we're going to push them over. Okay,
Elan Dersher, which his time is too important for me.
Let me go to fill in Boston. Fill you next
on Night Side with a go ahead, Phil, I am
so sorry.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
I mean I decided to buy. I mean, what is
no soup for you, no parogi for you? All of
a suddenly you're a mock guy. The sad thing is,
I want to understand you defend these people that do this.
And I don't know how his psychology. You don't you
can psychologically affect people, but you somehow.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I don't think he would defend this, this particular individual,
but I.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Would defend him. I would defend his writer. Free speech. Yes,
so I defended Nazis, I've defended communists, I've beginded anti
israel people, and I would defend him if somebody. In fact,
what happened is when somebody came in front of a
house and started calling me names and everything. The police said,
we'd be happy to stop wins and no, he has
(16:53):
a First Amendment right. And the same thing with the
parogi person. Uh they police, uh ask me whether I
wanted to do something. I said, no, let him speak,
let him have his point right, just have him sell
me the dann parogi.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
But Alan, let me make sure that I want Ellen.
Let me make sure again he's not claiming, uh, you know,
a First Amendment right here. He can say whatever he
can say. I hate Alan Durst, which I hate everything
he stands for. But what we're talking about is I
don't know that you would defend his right not to
sell his product.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't, nor nor would I defend
his right to discriminate against you know, black people with
gay people of course.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, no, that's exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, that's half with people.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to I just wanted to
clarify that because they didn't want people to come away.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
I'm sorry, I'm just you know, I just this guy
gave me a strong personality. I'm telling you, I give
you a lot of credit. And eighty seven years old,
you defend the people, but you just got on the
law school. You saved that guy life. And some young
believe I'm sorry you're a small island.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
No, don't feel sorry for me. I'm you know, I
have a thick skin. My wife gets very upset about.
She loves me so much as she hates when people
call me names and yell at me when I'm trying
to get a slice of pizza, stand in front of
the house and call me names. They have the right,
but I have the right to condemn them for doing
it as well.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
And so I don't think that. I think that the
down deep, Alan realizes he's standing up for principal. And
Alan has always started for principal. And that's and he
I'm going to say this, I think he enjoys it.
He stood there today with a bleeding crowd of a
bleeding b L E A T I N G crowd
of individuals who, uh, you know, just we're not willing
(18:47):
even to hear the argument themselves. So it'll be it'll
be interesting. Phil.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I don't enjoy I find I find it necessary to
do but I don't enjoy it. It's nice to be liked,
but I'm prepared to sacrifice that for principles. So thank
you for having me on. Thank you for giving me
an opportunity to explain this, and I hope people will,
you know, support the right of everybody to say what
(19:12):
they want, but not the right to refuse to sell
commercial products to people of whose politics, or whose clients
or who's religious. So thank you very much, thank you, Thanks,
take care.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Thank you for your time, and please you are always
welcome on this program. You know that. I thank you
for getting back to me as quickly as you did today.
I am a mron respect the integrity that you have
shown for a lifetime, So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Well, thank you too, you too, you well bank.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Alan Durshowitz. Okay, now we're going to do We're going
to take a little bit of an extended break here.
If you heard the conversation, I'm inviting you to call
six one seven four ten thirty six one seven nine
thirty whether you agree or not with Alan Dershowitz. I'll
give Rob a chance to catch up a little bit
(20:09):
of the commercials. We actually blew through a commercial break
which we rarely do, but I felt that it was important.
And Rob, we can go to the news and you
can have a little bit of an extended brake. In
the meantime, what love people to light up the lines
will be done with this topic, but I want to
talk about it. I want to talk about the intolerance
(20:29):
of people who truly believe they are the most tolerance tolerant.
And Martha's Vineyard has a for some reason, there's something
over in the I don't know over there something in
the water that makes them so intolerant. They look at
Alan Dershowitz and they say, you've defended OJ Simpson, You've
(20:50):
defended the Donald Trump, You've defended whatever, and therefore that
makes you And of course you're also a Zionist. That's
that became a big part of it as well. And
I hope you understand the distinction and the difference here
that once you get involved, this is a This is
a question not of the speech of the The person
(21:12):
who refused to sell it was their unwillingness to do
what all Americans are supposed to do. Once they hang
out a plaque saying that we're prepared to sell a product,
they cannot discriminate based upon well, certainly religion, but I
(21:32):
think it goes beyond that. I think that there is
an obligation. It would It could sound silly, but if
you had someone who said, look, I'm a Yankee fan,
and I have and there are a lot of Yankee
fans by the way, and Martha's Vineyard Watts, if they
say I'm not going to sell to Red Sox fans,
people would understand that this is an important principle. Could
(21:56):
Alan dersch which go I found perrogis elsewhere? Oh? Absolutely,
no question. But if you are in commerce in America,
you do not have a right to withhold your product
when you hold it out for sale, certainly in my opinion,
under the commerce clause, and also particularly when there is
(22:18):
the veneer the potential veneer of some form of religious persecution, prosecution.
We'll be back on the Nightside. Let's light these lines up.
Coming right back after this.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It's Nightside with Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Let's get a point of view from Theodore down in
Baltimore Theater. Are you next on Nightside? I wish it
called early could have got you on with Alan Drshowitz.
All you got left is me buddy, go ahead.
Speaker 6 (22:47):
Well, first of all, he's a great, great lawyer, and
I dare say you not name the default. Your level
of lawyering and skill is just is good. So it's
just like talking to him when I'm talking to you.
Although my search for the elusive uh uh salary a
(23:09):
millionaires ago, if you are still the one, however, we'll
we'll put the suicide. I wasn't going to ask the
question like this, Dan and to and to you and
mister Dorsher, which I'm anna African American. They're going to
re establish refit, rebuild a statue to mister Pike that
(23:29):
was taken down in DC after the uh uh. Lloyd
the the the young man who was killed in the
riots during that time. George Floyd said yes, George Floyd. Now,
if I were to file a suit saying I don't
want my tax money used for this purpose because technically
(23:50):
he was a trader, though many of them were reinstated,
would I have a little leg to stand on.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I don't know if you would have a leg to
stand up, but I think you have a cause of action, okay.
I I think that you could make that argument, whether
or not you'd prevail on it. Tell me a little
bit more about this fellow Pike. Was he a Southern general.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
Yes, it was the Southern General, and I think he
was very principal. Indn't having started the uh the ku
Klux Klan and they're going to his attatute was torn
down doing the uh the uh the the the disturbances
based after George Floyd.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, no, I understand that. Yeah, I don't know enough
about who that I'm not. I'm aware that we had
UH men who became United States presidents who owned slaves. Yes,
that's obviously Thomas Jefferson. I don't know that if you
wanted to remove the Jefferson memorial, if that would be allowed.
(24:56):
I think that that that there was and under standable
reaction in the wake of the George Floyd situation where
people were looking at situation at situations there there are streets,
and there are roads, and there are schools named after
Jefferson and rights.
Speaker 6 (25:15):
But at base my my my cause of action would be,
I do not want my text wanting to use used
to refit and redisplay a man who was a trader
to the country.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Okay, so let's assume you prevailed on that Okay, Yes,
I have no idea what it would take to take
a a statue out of storage. Okay, but I assume
we're talking about a relatively small amount of money. Let's
(25:49):
say it took five thousand dollars to move this. They're
not talking about building the statue that there are creating
the statue, talking about moving it out. You know, one
way in which I guess you could assert your right
is that they could do some sort of calculation as
to what percentage of the cost of that statute would
(26:12):
represent you and maybe be smarted to file a class
action lawsuit and to try to up the ante. But
I think that, you know, the flip side of that
would be if there was someone who was a relative
of this guy who didn't want the statue to be removed,
(26:38):
maybe he could have made the opposite argument from you
and said, well, I'm a relative. I don't know if
this guy was a general or whatever, and I don't
think it is fair for, you know, for my tax
dollars to be used to remove the statue of my
ancestor in that hypothetical situation.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Well, then you really really help me out with that.
And I have to tell someone I know that these
billionaires they're talking about that mister Trump is supporting him
at who's running him? That I was able to talk
to one tonight from Boston, And I hope.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
You're not telling them that I'm a billionaire.
Speaker 6 (27:19):
Oh well, because I won't let it out. I won't
let it out there.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
They would be very disappointed if they ever saw my
my sav these accounts. But that's neither here or there.
Could you could depict me in any way you want,
my friend, how have you been done everything? Okay?
Speaker 6 (27:33):
I hope as well as can be expected for someone
seventy six years old.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
Well, and Dan, I will say this, if the wisdom
I have now could have been a clout when I
was younger, it'd be a whole different world. But God
is good anyway.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
God is good. That's one thing that you and I
agree upon, although a lot of my listeners probably would
disagree with that. I think you know, God is good
and the only art I think we both agree and
it is getting old surface over and.
Speaker 6 (28:02):
If and if those Bumps that play at Gillette Stadium
meet the Ravens this year, it's going to be a beatdown.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
So you know, well, they had a pretty good night tonight.
So but I I I want to see how how
it all plays out. They looked. The Patriots did look
good tonight. They handled the common to us. But anybody
who puts much weight in in preseason football games, I
(28:30):
think will be solf.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
It's a half show. But I will say this, I
have to alert my pigeon friends that there's a new
statue up there of someone who wore number twelve, and
they would be very well inclined to rest and do
their duty on that statue.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
So I understand your frustration having well, it's to mister
Bernie so many times. Thank you have a great weekend. Okay,
you stay cool? Thanks? Are I going to take a
break here? We did speak with Alan Durswitz. I have
a little bit of the sound of the confrontation that
(29:09):
Alan had with this perogi dealer, and I want to
play it. I didn't want to play it while Alan
was with us because it really would have been insulting
to him. But this is him approaching the stand and
offering a book. And again, the issue here is that
(29:31):
many folks really believe that they are so tolerant, and
I find intolerance now much more on the far left
even it exists on the far right, there's no question
that is a commonality. But even amongst you know, people
on the vineyard, who are for the most part, well educated,
(29:55):
fairly comfortable financially, if not very comfortable financially, they cannot
tolerate people amongst them who might view the world somewhat differently.
Alan Dershowitz, as a lawyer, has an obligation to make
(30:16):
sure that the government, in any prosecution of a defendant,
fulfills their obligations to prove all the elements of the
crime beyond a reasonable doubt. It's not a game. It's
something that lawyers take quite seriously, and lawyers of his
stature take it very seriously. Why people cannot understand that
(30:42):
is way beyond me? Uh six seven two five four
ten thirty six seven nine three one ten thirty. I
got some open lines here, so I'm going to play
right now. Cut thirty three will end on cut thirty three.
This gives you a sense of what the conversation, if
you want to call it, that went as Alan Derschwitz
approached this Parogi stand Wednesday of this week, the same
(31:04):
stand that had denied him service a week ago Wednesday,
Uh and he offered, I thought, you know a bit
of a peace offering. And the person who uses the
pronoun day and them you'll you'll hear Alan corrected by
(31:27):
that person, and I believe in that Scott and he
he understands and acknowledges the correction and apologizes. Allan acted
as a complete gentleman, as he always does, confident and
confident in the law, in articulate. And yet this is
how it went cut thirty three. Please, Robin, you will
(31:48):
go back to trying to restore community and to ask
you to sell me prog and the interest of keeping
the island together.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Two stands one for anti ziem and you will sell
that yourself. And ask you to please just show me
any one of your products, to show that you're prepared
to sell it to anybody and not allow your anti
Zionism to sorry which.
Speaker 7 (32:15):
People this man is calling me an unto Zionists. This
excuse me.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
This man is the same. I also want more for
you this book which no thank you signed it to you.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
Thank you so much, thank you so much. I am
very surprised that you're here because of the things that
you've been saying about us and the business online well,
good is our business and kind scimitch is me and
I really don't matter.
Speaker 8 (32:45):
Appreciate what you've been sharing from the last week since
Is it true.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w B
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Back to the phones, we go to Chris in Plymouth.
Next Chris, you and next on Nightsicker.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Right ahead, Hey, Dan, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 7 (33:03):
Absolute pleasure, love your show.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Thank you appreciate the kind words. So what are your
thoughts on what Alan dersha was is being subjected to
here on the the the Island of maximum tolerance Martha's Vineyard.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
Dan, you know, I got a lot of opinions, but
here's mine about this. I have a solution to the
different gender bathroom policy. You want to hear it.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
It's sure fantastic.
Speaker 7 (33:34):
I think it's inclusive. I think it includes everybody, and
I think it's uh, it just makes sense anatomically, if
you will.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Okay, I don't know how that relates to what we're
talking about, but go ahead.
Speaker 7 (33:47):
Well here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
There's a lot of problems.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
We're going with this.
Speaker 7 (33:50):
Okay, I will, I will, I will, I mean with
the most respects.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
But again, how does this relate to the parogi gate
we're talking about here.
Speaker 7 (34:00):
Because if you don't, it's just one way or the other.
And that's the way that you get everybody included. It's
whatever you want to do, everybody's included, everybody feels comfortable,
and that's how that's a way to solve the problem.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
But what I'm saying is with the parogy idea here
is Durswitch goes to this farmer's market all the time.
He wants to buy parogi's. He could have wanted to
buy beef steak tomatoes. I've been to that market many times,
not many times, but I've been to similar, similar type
of places you go through and most of the time
(34:35):
that things are somewhat overpriced. Sometimes you can haggle a
little bit and say, gee, I don't want to pay
fourteen dollars for that for two brownies or whatever. What
about ten dollars for two Okay? Fine, But they said no,
we're not going to sell it to you. And he
believes that that they did want to sell it to
(34:56):
him because he happens to be something what he considers
to be a zion, which is, you know, part of Judaism.
Uh and and he feels that that he he was
mistreated because of his religious belief. And if if somebody
(35:16):
looked at me and saw me wearing a crucifix and said,
I don't sell the people who wear crucifixes. I mean,
this is such an easy question. Sell the damn parogis
and be done with it.
Speaker 7 (35:29):
I couldn't agree more. Damn. Listen, everybody's got to be
respected for their own opinions, for their own ways of being,
and especially when it comes to religious freedoms, we have
to respect that. We got to keep it out of
the government and well, we've got to keep it into
people's personal lives. And that's what people deserve. They deserve
to be able to have the freedom to buy parogis
(35:53):
whenever they want, and they shouldn't be discriminated against for
want of PAROCHI all right.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
We're the same page on this one. All right, Thanks Chris,
go ahead.
Speaker 7 (36:08):
I said, thanks so much for having me on.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
Dan.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I love your show.
Speaker 8 (36:11):
I love your program, and I love how inclusive you
are always of everybody's opinions. You always have everybody on
to let their opinions fly and let everybody say what
they want to say.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
And I think they.
Speaker 7 (36:24):
Want parogis in one way or another, they should be
able to get there.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
You have freedom, all right, you got it, you got it.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
You're fixated in that. Thanks Chris, have a great weekend,
Have a great night.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Good night.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Let me go next to Bill in Pennsylvania. Bill, I
got you in one more. I'd like to get both
of the in. Go ahead, Bill.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I'm surprised it isn't tell Alan just go home and
make your own.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Well, that's there's a principle involved here. I'm sure he
probably could go home, probably make better parogies than we're
being sold. But you get involved in interstate commerce in America,
you you have to. You know, you've heard the saying
the customer is always right, right, that is is part
(37:09):
of what you know. Once you get involved in interstate commerce,
you can't turn around and say, I'm not going to
sell it to you because I don't like what you
believe in or I don't believe this.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
This vendor actually knows who Alan is.
Speaker 7 (37:24):
Of course, Okay, that makes.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
It even worse because they I mean, Alan's going to
assume him right, Uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
But maybe the vendors looking forward to it. I mean
I think that right, that Alan's first tact is to
make sure that the by laws of the market are adjusted.
So you know this is if you've ever been to
a market on March's vineyard, they basically sell stuff that
(37:55):
they grow for the most part.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
And now I never I never been there, but I
want to visit. Hey, Dan, did you notice that you
mentioned the left? Okay? Did you have you noticed the
last year or so, it's really got worse that the left.
When you when you meet with them, or you know,
run into them, they never want to They never want
to debate anything. Now they used to be big mouths.
(38:19):
Now all of a sudden they just clam up. They
don't want to.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Well, they they are again people who consider themselves. They
would tell you that the most tolerant people in the world.
Remember Martha Vinion was the place that welcomed the migrants
that Governor DeSantis had flown up there.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
For ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Well it was a little long. In the ten minutes.
It was about thirty six hours or maybe less thirty hours,
and they put them on buses through Cape Card. All right,
I want to get one more in man, Okay. I
normally give you more time, but I make an exception here,
bear with me. Okay, all this.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
All started with Hillary saying about the deplora bulls. That's
where this where it all.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yep. A lot of people believe that you're a deplorable person,
Bill because of your viewpoints. I do not believe you
are welcome. All right, Thanks, thanks very much, Bill, Have
a go on. Let me go to John in New Hampshire. John,
you were next on Nightside. Go right ahead, you're gonna
wrap the hour first, John.
Speaker 9 (39:14):
Fantastic. Nice talk to you.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Dan. You know, I find it. Thank you.
Speaker 9 (39:18):
I appreciate that. I think it's kind of a multi
layered when you look at it. I think certainly the
far left and the far right have gone absolutely crazy
both ways that you look at it.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yep.
Speaker 9 (39:29):
But I do think ethically there are times in business
that we make choices not to deal with people.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Now.
Speaker 9 (39:36):
I don't think that it's right that what they did
to Professor Derschwitz at all, but I thought the way
that he handled it this way was the best way
to handle it. Where if someone is going to act
that way in business, the best way to shut that
down is to put the word out there and let
people make the choice.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Well, give me an example of a way in which so,
for example, let us say that I don't know you're
a contractor of some sort and and you're going to
buy supplies or something. You tell me how how could
it work? I mean, when you put yourself out, did
(40:14):
you are selling products? A product you know, whether it's
tomatoes apple. Yeah.
Speaker 9 (40:23):
I agree with all of that one hundred percent. And
if there was only one person selling pogis across that
entire span, then certainly there would be something to it
to say that you're restricting people's use of that product.
But the better answer to that is somebody else can
do it better, and we should chastise this person for
(40:43):
their attitude towards other people and we put them out
of business.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
That way it right.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
But that argument was made when there were racist hotels
which did not want to accommodate black people, and they said, well,
we want you to stay here, but there are other
hotel tells it will take you. That's the principle is
what's important you engage in the state.
Speaker 9 (41:06):
But when we're talking about that, what we're talking about
is when we talk about a Zionist belief, it's an
ethical belief.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
It's according according to it's much more according.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
To it.
Speaker 9 (41:20):
Either way, I have no dog in the fight either way,
And certainly Professor Dershow has said himself that within the
own to their own community, there is a dispute of
whether there should be Zionism or anti Zionism.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Again, I think you missed the point, John, with all
due respect, and we're talking over each other. He was
essentially trying to say that that his belief in Zionism
is deeply rooted in his religion of Judaism, and that
would be part of the argument that he would make. Hey,
I'm flat up against that. I got to let you go.
(41:54):
I got you in, John, but I gotta move right.
Thank you. Twentyeth hour coming up, going to ask you
about what hobbies did you have as a child and
did they continue with you when you left when you
emerged into adulthood. It suggested to me last night, let's
take it up.
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