September 19, 2025 • 37 mins
Next week, a Boston federal court judge will consider a case that raises questions about whether women as well as men should be obligated to register for the military draft. As it stands right now under current U.S. law, anyone who was born a man and is currently between the ages of 18 and 26 is eligible and required to register for the draft. Attorney Wendy Murphy, a women's rights activist represents a MA woman who feels women as well as men should have equal rights and responsibilities when it comes to registering for the draft. Attorney Murphy joined us to discuss.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ten o'clock, we're going to ask the question is invite
to me a Putin playing Donald Trump over Ukraine. It's
been now five weeks since they were in Alaska together,
and I had an anticipation, or I hope that the
war in Ukraine, at least the fighting would have been
stopped by now, but it's anything but stopped. And so
Putin is now flying Russian jets over Estonia and Poland,
(00:24):
and it seems to me that he's not dealing from
the top of the deck with Donald Trump. And then
the question is what does the president, our president have
to do. So we'll get to all of that, and
then later on tonight we do the twenty third of
the week, and we always have sort of a question,
and someone suggested to me today that we would raise
(00:44):
a question of Fall starts on Monday, so it's only
now what two days away, two and a half days away.
And the one good thing about fall, if there is
a good thing about fall, is that there's a lot
of food stuff that are some of our favorite food
items come available in fall. So we may talk about
that tonight at eleven, but right now I want to
(01:07):
welcome Wendy Murphy back to nightside counselor how are you
this evening?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Great to be with you, Dan.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
You have a big appointment in Federal Court next week
in front of Judge William Young. You are going to
argue that women, like men are now should be required
to register for the draft for a portion an entrance
(01:37):
ramp to the military that has been closed for the
last fifty years. Why is the case that you're arguing
on Thursday next so important?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Well, for so many reasons, but not least of which
is that women have been in the military since literally
the beginning of our country and have been fighting in
all branches in one form or another, and they just
have not been allowed to register for the drafts.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So they haven't they haven't been in the same numbers.
Whatever war you want to cite. As men, they certainly
have served, there's no question about that. But historically, I
think this country, rightfully or wrongfully, has always looked upon
women as less capable physically than men. And also I
(02:35):
think that they times have changed, and our view of
women and their capacity has has broadened a lot in
recent years, and I think would be silly to deny that.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yes, and and the military itself, by the way across
all branches is one hundred percent supportive of women being
allowed to register for the draft. So it's interesting where
the debate lies. It's certainly not in the military. And
by the way, just because women register for the draft
doesn't mean they're capable of serving on the front lines. Obviously,
not all women are capable, but neither are all men capable.
(03:12):
Some women are more men than women are. I can't
disagree with any of that, but it's this general law.
It's in black and white, and it's been there for
over one hundred years. It specifically says men must register
for the draft when they turn eighteen and women may not.
And it's just a tired and sexist and ridiculous law
(03:33):
that should be abolished. Unfortunately, we have a Supreme Court
ruling from nineteen eighty one called Roscar versus Georgia, where
the Supreme Court said it's okay to exclude women from
the draft because they don't they're not allowed to serve
on the front lines of combat, and because that makes
them not ready in a military sense, why bother to
(03:55):
put them in the draft. We need people on the
front lines of combat. If we ever do have a
draft called so don't bother burdening the draft with women,
since they can't serve where we need the most, should
we have a war? And that's a hard argument to
disagree with. However, as of twenty fifteen, remember that Roscer
case was from nineteen eighty one, but as of twenty fifteen,
(04:18):
women are now allowed to serve on the front lines
of combat in all military branches. So really what this
case is about, and my case is not the only one.
There are three pending in this country New York, California
and mine. I'm sorry, New Jersey, California and mine, but
we all make the same argument. If women are now
serving on the front lines of combat, it's time to
(04:39):
overturn Roscar versus Georgia. Let women, not just let women
register for the draft, require women to register for the
draft because men are required women want to be treated equally.
Treat women equally, make them register for the draft.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
And of course, ironically, we're talking about registering for a
system which has been inert for a little over fifty years.
There hasn't been any draft anyone reporting, you know, via
people have enlisted, and women have enlisted, you know, obviously
(05:16):
in probably greater numbers. Now than fifty years ago. I
guess you're arguing this is an equal protection issue.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yes, absolutely, Look, the Constitution says all persons shall have
equal protection.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Of all laws.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, this is one where women don't have equal protection
and they deserve it. And it's both, you know. I
think it's both a protection in terms of the law
treating women equally. But it's also important to remember that
in this country we have both rights and obligations. We
don't just have a bill of rights, we have rights
and responsibilities. I think it's very important to say to women,
(05:55):
if you want to be treated equally, you have to
serve equally. You really have a tough more argument, in
my opinion, as a woman saying I'd like to have
full equal rights, which by the way, women do not
have right now. So women who demand full equality bump
up against this argument. Well, you don't die for your country.
You're in terms of what democracy asks of us. You
(06:19):
ought to be obligated to provide the same civic service
that men provide. Otherwise, why are you asking for fully
equal treatment? That's what could argue. Of course, women are entitled.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Let me ask you this, If women do not have
full equal rights I think they have full equal rights.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Under the law, well, not under the constitution. No, women
aren't fully equal yet because although we are persons under
the equal Protection Clause, our equal protection rights are enforced
at a lower standard of scrutiny. So more discrimination against
women is tolerated by the law because we don't yet
have full equality.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
We have to give you an example of Now, I
know that there's going to be, uh, the argument over
you know, adequate pay and all of that. But I'm
assuming you're not looking that as a as a legal discrimination.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
No, I wouldn't. I'm not opposed to describing unequal pay
as a problem that might be tethered to unequal treatment
or the constitution. But more obvious things are laws like
this one that we're talking about as well as in Massachusetts,
there's a hate crime statute. The hate crime law says
that if you target a person for crime because they
(07:37):
are black or Jewish, or Asian or Muslim, or gay
or transgender, that's a hate crime. But if you target
a woman because she's female, it's not a hate crime.
Women are the only excluded category, and by the way,
men are excluded too.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Well.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I was going to make I was going to I
was going to make that point if if, if there's
no you know, uh, indication that a hate crime against
there are men who, yeah, who end up with some
form of uh, you know, situation uh, And it gets
into it gets into the murky waters. Let's stay with
(08:14):
this because I.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Think what I'm saying is it would be unconstitutional to
exclude women from protection under the hate crime law if
women had full constitutional equality. But because women don't have
full equality under equal protection, it's okay under the federal
constitution to protect women unequally under the hate crime law.
(08:36):
That's why I mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, okay, And again I just look at that professor
and counselor as I mean, you know, there are so
many areas that women have progressed over the years, going
back one hundred years, with the right to vote and
all of the rights that have accumulated over time. If
(09:02):
there is no protection for men under hate crime statutes,
and there is no protection for women under hate crime statues,
it would seem to me that that is equal protection.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Well, it depends if you think equal protection only compares
women to men, and that's not true. Equal is equal equal,
And the Supreme Court said this earlier this year.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
But you could you can have was you could say, okay,
there's no equal protection for people who are under five
feet into five feet three two inches.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
It's all seriously well yes, but yes, but the Supreme
Court has.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
A sense and that's that's an immutable characteristic too, by
the way.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Well yes, but protected characteristics that the Supreme Court says
are entitled to equal protection are things that are things
that are immutable, things that are immutable.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Well, but maybe weight isn't, but height is.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
But height and weight have never ever enjoyed class based protection.
Sex has, race has, ethnicity has, and what they've done
to women is and men men are covered too. But
the support category, what the Court has said is you
can have equal protection, but your equal protection rights will
be unequally enforced, which is kind of like unequal equal protection.
(10:27):
I know you get a head bang out of that.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
No, no, no, I unders did that. And what we
don't want to do is we want it. We don't
want to run a cortonlock that class there so our
audience totally, but I understand the points you're banking. I
assume that there would be lots of men who would say, look,
I don't want my eighteen year old daughter having to
go down if in the unlikelihood that there was ever
(10:52):
going to be a draft. And I'm sure that there
might be some women who would say, Hey, I'm turning
eighteen next month. You know, I want to go to college,
and if there's going to be a draft, I don't
want to get you know, Again, I think that that
it's an interesting argument. Let's take a break, uh, let's
invite people to call and tell us what they think. Again,
(11:14):
it's important to know we're not arguing over the number
of angels in the head of a pin here, but
we are talking about an obligation to require people to
register for something that has not been invoked in over
fifty years in terms of the uh, the draft. So
(11:36):
but but I think it's a great discussion point, and
I'm suggesting and I hope we get a lot of
different points of view. Six one, seven, two, five, four
ten thirty, triple eight nine two nine ten thirty. Also
six one, seven, nine, three, one ten thirty join us
on night side. My guest is a council Wendy Murphy,
attorney Wendy Murphy, who also teaches law and has teach
(11:59):
has talked law for many years at the New England
School of Law. Feel free to join the conversation and
I'm going to try to track the responses. I'll be
interested to see if there is a disparity here amongst
how men or women react to this. I know as
a dad, my daughter now is well beyond eighteen, I
(12:20):
would not want my granddaughter having to register for the draft.
But I'm pretty old fashioned in that regard. When We'll
be back on night Side right after this, okay, coming.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Back with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
By the way, when do we only got a couple
of minutes here? There are I'm not sure if they're
being imposed, but there are some penalties that can be,
even to this day imposed on young men who do
not go to the post office and submit their name
(13:01):
and their address and their phone number to Selective Service
on the possibility that there might be a draft.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, yes, that's correct. They could be denied certain job opportunities. Yeah,
there are consequences. I don't think they're being enforced. I
think you're right about that. What they are consequences that
only men suffer. So men are discriminated against two but
in a different way, right, So they suffer. They suffer
if they don't sign up. And lots of men don't
(13:31):
want to sign up for the draft. Lots of men
don't want to be drafted. They don't want to die.
Some women don't, some women do. It just doesn't divide
along male female lines, because people have their feelings about
war and the drafts, and it's not just a male
female question.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Absolutely so, just in the couple of minutes here before
the news break, and we'll hold off on the calls
until after because I don't want to short change anyone.
The argument is next Thursday. And there are, without getting
into the weeds here, a couple of other very similar
(14:08):
situated type cases. Matter of fact, one of them might
actually be an identical case. There's been some complications in
both of those cases. But your belief is that, however
Judge Young rules on this case, it's likely to be
appealed by and maybe eventually end up in front of
the US Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
That's right. The Supreme Court has indicated that it is
interested in this issue. It wants to overturn itself. That
nineteen eighty one case has got to be overturned because
the issue there was that women shouldn't sign up for
the draft because they're not fighting in combat. Now they are,
so you may as well just overturn that decision. The
Supreme Court has said as recently as twenty twenty one
(14:53):
that they want this case, they want a case to
be brought to them, And there are three cases pending.
Mine is one, a case in New Jersey, and a
federal case in California. The New Jersey case is also
a female plaintiff. The California case is a male plaintiff.
And you know, it's not unusual for the Supreme Court
to take three cases at a time when they're all related.
(15:15):
Oh sure, Yeah. My hope and my hope is that
if they're going to take anybody's case, take them all.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah. Well, there's a split in the circuit that in
the circuits. That's that's really a case that is very
ripe for the Supreme question. Another question is why is
it do you think that Congress could could could basically
write a statute that would pass and be signed and
put into law by by either the current president or
(15:43):
any presidents in the last fifty years. Doesn't seem to
be a political decision that Congress wants to mess with
because obviously it would incur some criticism and they like
to stay away from those sorts of topics. Congress could
take it on if they had some courage.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yes, yes, yes, Congress. If Congress fixed the statute, it
would dissolve all three cases. It would certainly moot my case.
Congress could simply pass law saying men and women must
register for the draft when they turn eighteen. Period, end
of discussion, and that's it. The fix is in. The
problem is the political will to cause women to become
(16:27):
eligible for the draft just isn't there. The National Organization
for Women only a couple of years ago changed its mind.
It originally fought for decades to get women into the draft.
Day in twenty twenty one, I think twenty twenty two
changed their positions that we no longer want women in
the draft because we are now opposed to the draft
(16:47):
for everybody.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
So that's also a bit of a that's a bit
of a cop out on their part as well.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yes it is, yes it is. I do not like
the National Organization for Women. They have been hostile to
a lot of the women's rights issues that I fight for.
Believe it or not, But the point is Congress won't
step up because there's no political will which may force
the Supreme Court to make the decision. It usually defers
to the to Congress to make military decisions, but it
will step in when Congress refuses.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
And obviously none of the Supreme Court justices who would
have ruled on that nineteen eighty one case are still
on the court, and therefore it makes it a little
easier for our Congress to review the work of a
prior court, a prior court with no current members. At least,
I believe that we'll take a quick break. My guest
(17:38):
is Wendy Murphy. She's an attorney also a law professor
at the New England School of Law. Always enjoy chatting
with her and talking with her and having some fun.
This is a serious issue, one that she will be
arguing next Thursday in Federal Court here in Boston, and
which may someday, and perhaps someday sooner than later, wind
its way up to the US Supreme Court. Men are
(17:59):
still obligated upon turning eighteen to register with Selective Service
in case the draft, ever is reactivated. In this country.
It has been dormant since the end of the Vietnam War,
and certainly a few a couple of years even before
nineteen seventy five. I think the last draft was in
nineteen seventy three. Wendy probably knows that off the top
(18:21):
of her head. I'm doing that from memory. We'd love
to have you join the conversation. I have one line
at six one, seven, two, five, four to ten thirty
and one at six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.
We will be back right after the news at the
bottom of the hour.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
My guest is attorney Wendy Murphy. She also teaches law
at the New England School of Law, and she is
going to be arguing a case next Thursday in federal
court here in Massachusetts, going to argue the case of
women being required to register with selective Service, even though
(19:03):
we have been without a draft in this country now
for over fifty years, if it were ever reinstalled and reactivated,
Wendy feels that women should be equally exposed to the
potential of being required to join the military, just as
(19:24):
young men between the ages of eighteen and twenty six
are currently required. Even again, even in a time when
the draft is inactive to register. Let's see what folks think.
We're going to go to the phones immediately here, as
we promise, We're going to start it off with John,
who joins us from Maine. Hi, John, Welcome, You're next
on Nightside.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
How are you Dan?
Speaker 1 (19:46):
How are you good? This is the case that affects
Maine as well as Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, fascinating discussion, Professor Murphrey and Dan not really kind
of changed my mind in thirty minutes of conversation. I
support the idea of women being registered for the for
the draft. It makes sense. I'm you know, I'm a veteran,
(20:15):
you know, I've been around. The other thing is the
technology that's changing, with the way where fighting wars today.
It's very you know, technological, and there's those positions in
the military for women. You know, I served with women.
(20:37):
Everybody seemed to do a good job, you know, you know,
and there's a lot of benefits that I have, you know,
whether it was paying for my college education or some
VA hospital stuff that you know, I've been through that
women have been deprived of because they weren't brought brought
(20:59):
into the well.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I don't know about that. Hey, John, I don't know
about that argument, because obviously women could have always enlisted
if they felt they wanted to join the military.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Yeah, you're correct. But what I think is, you know,
the draft back in nineteen sixty seven was on my
back and that's what got me into the Air Force
for four years. So I was sort of encouraged to
go into it.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
No, no, no, absolutely. My question to you is, do
you have any Do you have any grand grandchildren? Do
you have any granddaughters?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
I do, I do?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
How old are How old are your granddaughters?
Speaker 5 (21:37):
One?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Seven? Olivia's seven? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Would you want Olivia to have to register in college? Right?
But I'm saying, would you want you're a seven year
old eleven years hence to be compelled to register for
the draft?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah? I would.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Okay, don't tell a little of that, well.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
John, Okay, Yeah, you know, no problem. I you know,
it's my experience. Uh, you know, there was some negatives,
you know, being in the military, blah blah blah, but
there's a lot of positives in uh and uh, you know,
I just think I just think that if women, uh
(22:25):
you know, if they're physically capable. I mean I went
through basic training. I was never in direct combat. I was,
you know, at thirty five thousand feet. But you know,
if if women are physically you know, capable of, you know,
getting the job done in combat situations, you know have
had it.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
You know, well, well, there are some who were on
the front lines in our most recent military activity in
the Middle East.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yep, right, nosent, Yeah, that's what I see. By the way,
good luck Thursday. You know, thank you John, very articulate,
and I think you know this well. You know, we'll
see where see where it goes. And I appreciate you
(23:14):
having this conversation, all.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Right, John, appreciate you. JN. Thanks very much.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
We thank you for your service. John. I was just
going to say that I really appreciate what John said.
And I hear this a lot from men's veterans. They
always tell me that they had a good experience with women.
I'm not saying everyone had a great experience in the military,
but they don't have problems with women fighting alongside of them.
(23:46):
And my opinion, as a women's rights attorney, what I
want is for the I want this country to see
women as worthy of defending this great democracy. I don't
like the fact that there's a perception that women are unworthy,
anti democratic, not good enough, not fully committed to this country.
(24:06):
I really think that hurts women in a way that's
very subtle, but across the board, just not good for
either men or women.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
All right, exactly, Yeah, okay, I thank you, John, John,
I appreciate it very much. Talk to you soon.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Good night, Now, good night.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Let me keep rolling here. We're going to try to
get as many listeners in as possible. Many callers in
his possible were going to go to Larry down to
the Cape. Larry you next on Nights Side with Wendy Murphy.
Go right ahead, Larry.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
Okay, I'm one hundred percent for this, okay, And I'll
give you a couple of quick reasons because I know
you have a waiting line. In Israel, women and men
are required serve when they reach eighteen, and a lot
of them actually strive to get into some of the
elite units. When I was down in Fort Dix, the
(24:56):
first thing that I learned, and basic training is for
every one person, and of course it's probably changed because
of technology, but for everyone told you that carries a rifle,
there's ten people behind them in support. So not every
person that's in the military is an infantry. I got
a great education when I went to advanced military training.
(25:17):
I went to wheel vehicle mechanics school. I learned all
about trucks, and that became my whole life's work. I
was auto mechanic my whole life. So I'm one hundred
percent for this.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Thank you for your service too. He makes such a
good point, Dan, It's not just Israel, Norway, Sweden, Denmark,
North Korea and Israel are have long required women to
register for the draft and be conscripted.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
It's it's it's.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Been the way. It's been that way in a lot
of countries for a long time. And it's and it's
not crazy countries. I mean Sweden and Norwayian.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
Yes, that's true.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I have to say that you're right, corrected me.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
But those countries, each of those countries, I believe. In Israel, Uh,
it's it's a relatively small population of you know whatever,
the population is twelve million people surround the one hundred
country people.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
But except for North Korea, those other countries are deeply
committed to equality of women, men and women, and that's
why they do it.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Oh no, I understand. I've never been, ah from a
legal perspective, never been a believer in US following the
laws of other countries or emulating the WAW the laws
of other countries. I feel that we are best able
in this country to figure out what type of society
we want to have here. But I understand your point.
(26:39):
I mean, there was, for example, in the in the
Dutch army, uh back many years ago. I remember, uh,
the flavor of the month was you could you could
be in the Dutch army and you could have your hair,
you know, as long as you wanted it. You could
grow beards and stuff. I don't think that would work
in the US military under any circumstances.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
But yeah, just a little different.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
I think that, yes, we are.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
A little different from that. Hey, great call, Arian again,
Thank you much. We'll talk soon. Thanks my friend.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Absolutely, I have a great night.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
All right. I'd like to get a couple of calls
from women in here. Coming up next we have Bill
and Mike and Brian six one seven, two four ten
thirty is those lines are full, let's go. If you
ladies six one seven nine thirty. Uh, you want your daughters,
do you, particularly if you're young, if you're an eighteen
year old woman. Look, I don't think the draft will
(27:32):
ever come back in this country realistically, and I need
to say that because that colors my opinion on this.
I think the next war we fight will not involve
big war, will not involve ground troops. And there's a
lot in the military who don't want the draft and
military leadership who don't want the draft to come back,
and they're very happy with the volunteer military that we
(27:54):
currently have. But the fact of the matter is selective
service obligation is on the books for men in the
ages of eighteen and twenty six, and Wendy Murphy will
argue that that obligation should also be extended to women.
She will argue make that argument in federal court here
in Boston on next Thursday, and eventually we'll find out
how she does here in Boston, and it probably get appealed,
(28:16):
and it may she may end up with this case
in front of the US Supreme Court. We'll be right
back on Nightside after this.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
It's Nightside with Dan Ray on w Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
We're talking with attorney Wendy Murphy. By the case she'll
be arguing in Federal District court here in Boston next Thursday,
gonna go next to Bill in Pennsylvania, build next on Knights.
I go right ahead.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Hey, thanks Dan. I wanted to ask your guests. I'm
all for it. Okay. This has been one of my
arguments for the last twenty years that if men, if
men have to register, women have to register. I wanted
to ask. I can picture Wendy in my mind because
I remember her being on a real famous case. I
(29:00):
can't remember what case. What case was that, Wendy?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Oh, I don't know. I worked on television for a
long time, so I'm not sure which case you're referring to.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, okay, Billy got a question on the topic at hand,
because I have full calls behind you.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Okay, now my question is it okay to Wendy? Wendy
right now? Okay? So men, men right now have to
register for the draft when they hit eighteen, right, Yeah,
that's correct. Okay, Now what if what if they identify
as a woman? How does that work?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I love you.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
What a great question. I think the answer is transgender
people are not allowed to register. I think there's even
a new rule about where they can serve. If they
can serve, I correct me if I'm wrong, But I
think a new rule came out this year on that.
But the but the bottom line is probably that the
law would go by your biological u you know, at
(30:00):
birth sex. Yes, so I think just because you identify
as a female, if you are male biologically you still
have to register.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
That's my guest.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And if you're female and you transition to male but
you've got female jeens, you cannot register.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
All right, Bill, good questions, Thank you, thank you much.
Got to keep rolling here. I get a whole bunch
of calls, Bill, They got to get to other folks.
Thank you. Let me go to Mike and Belmont. Mike
next on Nightsager, right ahead, Okay, how you doing? Fine?
You ready? Let's go right ahead. You're on with Wendy Murphy. Mike,
go ahead.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (30:38):
I'm on a three side offense with this whole thing,
so I have no problem with it. But I'm just
not sure some some women are just as good as
you know, militarily lives as as the men. But the
funny thing is one European country tried this a long
time ago. I don't know, I don't Cara Coleho was
(31:01):
their male counterparts. When that when the women were serving,
they couldn't get over and they're gonna get a little
graphic here, they couldn't get over seeing them blown apart
on the battlefield.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, that sounds anecdotal to me. I don't I have
not heard that story before.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Mike.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Wendy has already mentioned that there's several European countries that
have women uh exposed to the same conscription.
Speaker 7 (31:27):
I'm on the fence three different, three different, three different
ways there, So I I'm.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Sorry, don't get hurt. Whatever you do, climb down carefully
off the fence. Okay, Thanks mine, talk to your later,
have a good one, good night. Let me go to
Jane and Everett. Jeane, go right ahead. I don't want
anyone to get injured on this program. Jane, You're next
on Nice with Wendy Murphy.
Speaker 8 (31:45):
Go ahead, Gene, Hi, Hi, Jane, Hi, Wendy. So, Wendy,
I have seen you in the past and television with
many cases, and you were great with representing people, helping
people out. So, but I do not agree with this,
and I just have one question for you before I
tell you. Why do you have children? Have you ever
(32:05):
had children?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I have five children and a grandchild.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Okay, so you could take that one off the table, Jean,
go ahead, what's your question.
Speaker 8 (32:15):
No, No, The thing is, I think the last time
I remember someone liberating us women was when they took
us out of the home, away from our children and
sent us to work. And it's been hell ever since.
And weildren are not getting the attention they need.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Not all, not all women are going to agree with that, Jeane.
That's a point of view that you have.
Speaker 8 (32:36):
The children need their mothers, they don't need the matching
off to war. I totally totally don't like.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
The whole fair enough, Okay, I suspect they probably No
matter what what argument Wendy might muster here, I don't
think she's going to change your mind.
Speaker 8 (32:51):
Yep. I just don't like it. I think.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
I respect I respect your opinion, Jane, I really do,
and you're entitled to it and me. You know, for me,
I'm not telling anybody what's right for them. I'm trying
to fight for women's equality. And to me, you know,
if you if women want equality, they have to be
willing to serve their country equally. And that's this is
(33:15):
part of the equation.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
It's it's not a.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
One way street for women. But I think, I mean
it's I know you're saying it's not good for children,
won't I won't debate that with you.
Speaker 8 (33:23):
You may be right, but I think if women wanted this,
they would have gone after it through the years.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Okay, Jean Geane, I got one more caller who I
want to try to get in here as well. I
think you've made your position very clear and I appreciate
your point of view. Thank you so much. Have a
nice weekend. Let me go next to Brian. Brian. They
spelled your name wrong. It's down. Unless your name is Brain,
I'm going to assume it's Brian in West Roxford.
Speaker 9 (33:46):
Go ahead, Brian, Brian and west right. And I've talked
to you a few times.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
All right, no problem.
Speaker 9 (33:52):
I'm maybe two years old before the registry happened. I
get drafted in nineteen sixty five.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Okay, and I have.
Speaker 9 (34:02):
No problem with women in the military.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Okay, Well, you're in the majority. I think my audience
by overwhelming majority. I think Jane was the only caller
who was a post of this. Virtually everyone has said
they they are either supportive of it or they're not.
Speaker 9 (34:22):
Well, I am as long as if you can make
it through basic train and you can make it.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah, well that's true. Having having gone through that experience,
I know exactly what you mean. Thanks, Thanks, Brian, I
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 9 (34:38):
And have a good night. Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Wendy. Wendy's the guest. Jean was the prior caller.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Thanks, thank you, thank you so much. Thanks for your service.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Okay, so let's just recap here the cases argued next Thursday. Realistically,
it would take a sitting federal judge. No, I don't
suspect you're going to get a decision on this much
before the end of the year. That's a sort of
a time guess. Yeah, that's always a guess. And whoever prevails,
(35:15):
I suspect it would get kicked up to the first Circuit,
and who knows, it may end up argued not this
not this year at the US Supreme Court, but maybe
in the term of twenty six twenty seven. Either way,
it's a fascinating case. Wehn they you present it well
as I knew you would, and I am I'm pleasantly
(35:38):
surprised that you have as much support for it as well.
It's easier to be supportive of it now that the
draft has been you know, inactive for fifty or fifty two.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, that's a fair point. You know, I probably
would have fought for it even if it was active,
because again, I'm an advocate for women's quality. My feeling
is it's a two way street. Women should serve their
country equally, and in return for that, they should get
full legal equality. And if women are going to be
dying and bleeding to death on the front lines of
(36:11):
battle alongside men, they damn well ought to die as
fully equal citizens under the constitution. That's the very simple point.
It's my point. It's the purpose of this lawsuit, and
it's about time, all right.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
And it's about time that I've got to wrap the hours.
So perfect segue. Thank you, Wendy. We'll talk again. I'm
so glad you checked in with us earlier in the week.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Dan, keep us posted, Okay, I will follow this obviously closely,
but don't hesitate to keep me close.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Keep me posted on you will, yes, I will, thank
you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
All right. When we get back right after the ten
o'clock news, we're going to change focus as we often
do at the top of the hour, and we're going
to talk about Ukraine, but talk about it from the
perspective of is Vladimir Putin has he played Donald Trump.
It has been now five weeks since they met in Alaska,
and Putin went home and Trump came back to President
(37:06):
Trump came back to Washington, and there was some optimism
that maybe Putin had seen the light. The only light
that he has shed has been bombs over Ukraine and
also now some Russian planes over other Eastern NATO countries,
Poland and Estonia. I believe as recently as today. We'll
(37:28):
get to all of that. If you want to call early.
You have the numbers back on night Side, right after
the news at the top of the hour.
Ten o'clock, we're going to ask the question is invite
to me a Putin playing Donald Trump over Ukraine. It's
been now five weeks since they were in Alaska together,
and I had an anticipation, or I hope that the
war in Ukraine, at least the fighting would have been
stopped by now, but it's anything but stopped. And so
Putin is now flying Russian jets over Estonia and Poland,
(00:24):
and it seems to me that he's not dealing from
the top of the deck with Donald Trump. And then
the question is what does the president, our president have
to do. So we'll get to all of that, and
then later on tonight we do the twenty third of
the week, and we always have sort of a question,
and someone suggested to me today that we would raise
(00:44):
a question of Fall starts on Monday, so it's only
now what two days away, two and a half days away.
And the one good thing about fall, if there is
a good thing about fall, is that there's a lot
of food stuff that are some of our favorite food
items come available in fall. So we may talk about
that tonight at eleven, but right now I want to
(01:07):
welcome Wendy Murphy back to nightside counselor how are you
this evening?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Great to be with you, Dan.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
You have a big appointment in Federal Court next week
in front of Judge William Young. You are going to
argue that women, like men are now should be required
to register for the draft for a portion an entrance
(01:37):
ramp to the military that has been closed for the
last fifty years. Why is the case that you're arguing
on Thursday next so important?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Well, for so many reasons, but not least of which
is that women have been in the military since literally
the beginning of our country and have been fighting in
all branches in one form or another, and they just
have not been allowed to register for the drafts.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So they haven't they haven't been in the same numbers.
Whatever war you want to cite. As men, they certainly
have served, there's no question about that. But historically, I
think this country, rightfully or wrongfully, has always looked upon
women as less capable physically than men. And also I
(02:35):
think that they times have changed, and our view of
women and their capacity has has broadened a lot in
recent years, and I think would be silly to deny that.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yes, and and the military itself, by the way across
all branches is one hundred percent supportive of women being
allowed to register for the draft. So it's interesting where
the debate lies. It's certainly not in the military. And
by the way, just because women register for the draft
doesn't mean they're capable of serving on the front lines. Obviously,
not all women are capable, but neither are all men capable.
(03:12):
Some women are more men than women are. I can't
disagree with any of that, but it's this general law.
It's in black and white, and it's been there for
over one hundred years. It specifically says men must register
for the draft when they turn eighteen and women may not.
And it's just a tired and sexist and ridiculous law
(03:33):
that should be abolished. Unfortunately, we have a Supreme Court
ruling from nineteen eighty one called Roscar versus Georgia, where
the Supreme Court said it's okay to exclude women from
the draft because they don't they're not allowed to serve
on the front lines of combat, and because that makes
them not ready in a military sense, why bother to
(03:55):
put them in the draft. We need people on the
front lines of combat. If we ever do have a
draft called so don't bother burdening the draft with women,
since they can't serve where we need the most, should
we have a war? And that's a hard argument to
disagree with. However, as of twenty fifteen, remember that Roscer
case was from nineteen eighty one, but as of twenty fifteen,
(04:18):
women are now allowed to serve on the front lines
of combat in all military branches. So really what this
case is about, and my case is not the only one.
There are three pending in this country New York, California
and mine. I'm sorry, New Jersey, California and mine, but
we all make the same argument. If women are now
serving on the front lines of combat, it's time to
(04:39):
overturn Roscar versus Georgia. Let women, not just let women
register for the draft, require women to register for the
draft because men are required women want to be treated equally.
Treat women equally, make them register for the draft.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
And of course, ironically, we're talking about registering for a
system which has been inert for a little over fifty years.
There hasn't been any draft anyone reporting, you know, via
people have enlisted, and women have enlisted, you know, obviously
(05:16):
in probably greater numbers. Now than fifty years ago. I
guess you're arguing this is an equal protection issue.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yes, absolutely, Look, the Constitution says all persons shall have
equal protection.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Of all laws.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, this is one where women don't have equal protection
and they deserve it. And it's both, you know. I
think it's both a protection in terms of the law
treating women equally. But it's also important to remember that
in this country we have both rights and obligations. We
don't just have a bill of rights, we have rights
and responsibilities. I think it's very important to say to women,
(05:55):
if you want to be treated equally, you have to
serve equally. You really have a tough more argument, in
my opinion, as a woman saying I'd like to have
full equal rights, which by the way, women do not
have right now. So women who demand full equality bump
up against this argument. Well, you don't die for your country.
You're in terms of what democracy asks of us. You
(06:19):
ought to be obligated to provide the same civic service
that men provide. Otherwise, why are you asking for fully
equal treatment? That's what could argue. Of course, women are entitled.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Let me ask you this, If women do not have
full equal rights I think they have full equal rights.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Under the law, well, not under the constitution. No, women
aren't fully equal yet because although we are persons under
the equal Protection Clause, our equal protection rights are enforced
at a lower standard of scrutiny. So more discrimination against
women is tolerated by the law because we don't yet
have full equality.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
We have to give you an example of Now, I
know that there's going to be, uh, the argument over
you know, adequate pay and all of that. But I'm
assuming you're not looking that as a as a legal discrimination.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
No, I wouldn't. I'm not opposed to describing unequal pay
as a problem that might be tethered to unequal treatment
or the constitution. But more obvious things are laws like
this one that we're talking about as well as in Massachusetts,
there's a hate crime statute. The hate crime law says
that if you target a person for crime because they
(07:37):
are black or Jewish, or Asian or Muslim, or gay
or transgender, that's a hate crime. But if you target
a woman because she's female, it's not a hate crime.
Women are the only excluded category, and by the way,
men are excluded too.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Well.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I was going to make I was going to I
was going to make that point if if, if there's
no you know, uh, indication that a hate crime against
there are men who, yeah, who end up with some
form of uh, you know, situation uh, And it gets
into it gets into the murky waters. Let's stay with
(08:14):
this because I.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Think what I'm saying is it would be unconstitutional to
exclude women from protection under the hate crime law if
women had full constitutional equality. But because women don't have
full equality under equal protection, it's okay under the federal
constitution to protect women unequally under the hate crime law.
(08:36):
That's why I mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, okay, And again I just look at that professor
and counselor as I mean, you know, there are so
many areas that women have progressed over the years, going
back one hundred years, with the right to vote and
all of the rights that have accumulated over time. If
(09:02):
there is no protection for men under hate crime statutes,
and there is no protection for women under hate crime statues,
it would seem to me that that is equal protection.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Well, it depends if you think equal protection only compares
women to men, and that's not true. Equal is equal equal,
And the Supreme Court said this earlier this year.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
But you could you can have was you could say, okay,
there's no equal protection for people who are under five
feet into five feet three two inches.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
It's all seriously well yes, but yes, but the Supreme
Court has.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
A sense and that's that's an immutable characteristic too, by
the way.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Well yes, but protected characteristics that the Supreme Court says
are entitled to equal protection are things that are things
that are immutable, things that are immutable.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Well, but maybe weight isn't, but height is.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
But height and weight have never ever enjoyed class based protection.
Sex has, race has, ethnicity has, and what they've done
to women is and men men are covered too. But
the support category, what the Court has said is you
can have equal protection, but your equal protection rights will
be unequally enforced, which is kind of like unequal equal protection.
(10:27):
I know you get a head bang out of that.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
No, no, no, I unders did that. And what we
don't want to do is we want it. We don't
want to run a cortonlock that class there so our
audience totally, but I understand the points you're banking. I
assume that there would be lots of men who would say, look,
I don't want my eighteen year old daughter having to
go down if in the unlikelihood that there was ever
(10:52):
going to be a draft. And I'm sure that there
might be some women who would say, Hey, I'm turning
eighteen next month. You know, I want to go to college,
and if there's going to be a draft, I don't
want to get you know, Again, I think that that
it's an interesting argument. Let's take a break, uh, let's
invite people to call and tell us what they think. Again,
(11:14):
it's important to know we're not arguing over the number
of angels in the head of a pin here, but
we are talking about an obligation to require people to
register for something that has not been invoked in over
fifty years in terms of the uh, the draft. So
(11:36):
but but I think it's a great discussion point, and
I'm suggesting and I hope we get a lot of
different points of view. Six one, seven, two, five, four
ten thirty, triple eight nine two nine ten thirty. Also
six one, seven, nine, three, one ten thirty join us
on night side. My guest is a council Wendy Murphy,
attorney Wendy Murphy, who also teaches law and has teach
(11:59):
has talked law for many years at the New England
School of Law. Feel free to join the conversation and
I'm going to try to track the responses. I'll be
interested to see if there is a disparity here amongst
how men or women react to this. I know as
a dad, my daughter now is well beyond eighteen, I
(12:20):
would not want my granddaughter having to register for the draft.
But I'm pretty old fashioned in that regard. When We'll
be back on night Side right after this, okay, coming.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Back with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
By the way, when do we only got a couple
of minutes here? There are I'm not sure if they're
being imposed, but there are some penalties that can be,
even to this day imposed on young men who do
not go to the post office and submit their name
(13:01):
and their address and their phone number to Selective Service
on the possibility that there might be a draft.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, yes, that's correct. They could be denied certain job opportunities. Yeah,
there are consequences. I don't think they're being enforced. I
think you're right about that. What they are consequences that
only men suffer. So men are discriminated against two but
in a different way, right, So they suffer. They suffer
if they don't sign up. And lots of men don't
(13:31):
want to sign up for the draft. Lots of men
don't want to be drafted. They don't want to die.
Some women don't, some women do. It just doesn't divide
along male female lines, because people have their feelings about
war and the drafts, and it's not just a male
female question.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Absolutely so, just in the couple of minutes here before
the news break, and we'll hold off on the calls
until after because I don't want to short change anyone.
The argument is next Thursday. And there are, without getting
into the weeds here, a couple of other very similar
(14:08):
situated type cases. Matter of fact, one of them might
actually be an identical case. There's been some complications in
both of those cases. But your belief is that, however
Judge Young rules on this case, it's likely to be
appealed by and maybe eventually end up in front of
the US Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
That's right. The Supreme Court has indicated that it is
interested in this issue. It wants to overturn itself. That
nineteen eighty one case has got to be overturned because
the issue there was that women shouldn't sign up for
the draft because they're not fighting in combat. Now they are,
so you may as well just overturn that decision. The
Supreme Court has said as recently as twenty twenty one
(14:53):
that they want this case, they want a case to
be brought to them, And there are three cases pending.
Mine is one, a case in New Jersey, and a
federal case in California. The New Jersey case is also
a female plaintiff. The California case is a male plaintiff.
And you know, it's not unusual for the Supreme Court
to take three cases at a time when they're all related.
(15:15):
Oh sure, Yeah. My hope and my hope is that
if they're going to take anybody's case, take them all.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah. Well, there's a split in the circuit that in
the circuits. That's that's really a case that is very
ripe for the Supreme question. Another question is why is
it do you think that Congress could could could basically
write a statute that would pass and be signed and
put into law by by either the current president or
(15:43):
any presidents in the last fifty years. Doesn't seem to
be a political decision that Congress wants to mess with
because obviously it would incur some criticism and they like
to stay away from those sorts of topics. Congress could
take it on if they had some courage.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yes, yes, yes, Congress. If Congress fixed the statute, it
would dissolve all three cases. It would certainly moot my case.
Congress could simply pass law saying men and women must
register for the draft when they turn eighteen. Period, end
of discussion, and that's it. The fix is in. The
problem is the political will to cause women to become
(16:27):
eligible for the draft just isn't there. The National Organization
for Women only a couple of years ago changed its mind.
It originally fought for decades to get women into the draft.
Day in twenty twenty one, I think twenty twenty two
changed their positions that we no longer want women in
the draft because we are now opposed to the draft
(16:47):
for everybody.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
So that's also a bit of a that's a bit
of a cop out on their part as well.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yes it is, yes it is. I do not like
the National Organization for Women. They have been hostile to
a lot of the women's rights issues that I fight for.
Believe it or not, But the point is Congress won't
step up because there's no political will which may force
the Supreme Court to make the decision. It usually defers
to the to Congress to make military decisions, but it
will step in when Congress refuses.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
And obviously none of the Supreme Court justices who would
have ruled on that nineteen eighty one case are still
on the court, and therefore it makes it a little
easier for our Congress to review the work of a
prior court, a prior court with no current members. At least,
I believe that we'll take a quick break. My guest
(17:38):
is Wendy Murphy. She's an attorney also a law professor
at the New England School of Law. Always enjoy chatting
with her and talking with her and having some fun.
This is a serious issue, one that she will be
arguing next Thursday in Federal Court here in Boston, and
which may someday, and perhaps someday sooner than later, wind
its way up to the US Supreme Court. Men are
(17:59):
still obligated upon turning eighteen to register with Selective Service
in case the draft, ever is reactivated. In this country.
It has been dormant since the end of the Vietnam War,
and certainly a few a couple of years even before
nineteen seventy five. I think the last draft was in
nineteen seventy three. Wendy probably knows that off the top
(18:21):
of her head. I'm doing that from memory. We'd love
to have you join the conversation. I have one line
at six one, seven, two, five, four to ten thirty
and one at six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.
We will be back right after the news at the
bottom of the hour.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
My guest is attorney Wendy Murphy. She also teaches law
at the New England School of Law, and she is
going to be arguing a case next Thursday in federal
court here in Massachusetts, going to argue the case of
women being required to register with selective Service, even though
(19:03):
we have been without a draft in this country now
for over fifty years, if it were ever reinstalled and reactivated,
Wendy feels that women should be equally exposed to the
potential of being required to join the military, just as
(19:24):
young men between the ages of eighteen and twenty six
are currently required. Even again, even in a time when
the draft is inactive to register. Let's see what folks think.
We're going to go to the phones immediately here, as
we promise, We're going to start it off with John,
who joins us from Maine. Hi, John, Welcome, You're next
on Nightside.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
How are you Dan?
Speaker 1 (19:46):
How are you good? This is the case that affects
Maine as well as Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, fascinating discussion, Professor Murphrey and Dan not really kind
of changed my mind in thirty minutes of conversation. I
support the idea of women being registered for the for
the draft. It makes sense. I'm you know, I'm a veteran,
(20:15):
you know, I've been around. The other thing is the
technology that's changing, with the way where fighting wars today.
It's very you know, technological, and there's those positions in
the military for women. You know, I served with women.
(20:37):
Everybody seemed to do a good job, you know, you know,
and there's a lot of benefits that I have, you know,
whether it was paying for my college education or some
VA hospital stuff that you know, I've been through that
women have been deprived of because they weren't brought brought
(20:59):
into the well.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I don't know about that. Hey, John, I don't know
about that argument, because obviously women could have always enlisted
if they felt they wanted to join the military.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Yeah, you're correct. But what I think is, you know,
the draft back in nineteen sixty seven was on my
back and that's what got me into the Air Force
for four years. So I was sort of encouraged to
go into it.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
No, no, no, absolutely. My question to you is, do
you have any Do you have any grand grandchildren? Do
you have any granddaughters?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
I do, I do?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
How old are How old are your granddaughters?
Speaker 5 (21:37):
One?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Seven? Olivia's seven? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Would you want Olivia to have to register in college? Right?
But I'm saying, would you want you're a seven year
old eleven years hence to be compelled to register for
the draft?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah? I would.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Okay, don't tell a little of that, well.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
John, Okay, Yeah, you know, no problem. I you know,
it's my experience. Uh, you know, there was some negatives,
you know, being in the military, blah blah blah, but
there's a lot of positives in uh and uh, you know,
I just think I just think that if women, uh
(22:25):
you know, if they're physically capable. I mean I went
through basic training. I was never in direct combat. I was,
you know, at thirty five thousand feet. But you know,
if if women are physically you know, capable of, you know,
getting the job done in combat situations, you know have
had it.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
You know, well, well, there are some who were on
the front lines in our most recent military activity in
the Middle East.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yep, right, nosent, Yeah, that's what I see. By the way,
good luck Thursday. You know, thank you John, very articulate,
and I think you know this well. You know, we'll
see where see where it goes. And I appreciate you
(23:14):
having this conversation, all.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Right, John, appreciate you. JN. Thanks very much.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
We thank you for your service. John. I was just
going to say that I really appreciate what John said.
And I hear this a lot from men's veterans. They
always tell me that they had a good experience with women.
I'm not saying everyone had a great experience in the military,
but they don't have problems with women fighting alongside of them.
(23:46):
And my opinion, as a women's rights attorney, what I
want is for the I want this country to see
women as worthy of defending this great democracy. I don't
like the fact that there's a perception that women are unworthy,
anti democratic, not good enough, not fully committed to this country.
(24:06):
I really think that hurts women in a way that's
very subtle, but across the board, just not good for
either men or women.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
All right, exactly, Yeah, okay, I thank you, John, John,
I appreciate it very much. Talk to you soon.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Good night, Now, good night.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Let me keep rolling here. We're going to try to
get as many listeners in as possible. Many callers in
his possible were going to go to Larry down to
the Cape. Larry you next on Nights Side with Wendy Murphy.
Go right ahead, Larry.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
Okay, I'm one hundred percent for this, okay, And I'll
give you a couple of quick reasons because I know
you have a waiting line. In Israel, women and men
are required serve when they reach eighteen, and a lot
of them actually strive to get into some of the
elite units. When I was down in Fort Dix, the
(24:56):
first thing that I learned, and basic training is for
every one person, and of course it's probably changed because
of technology, but for everyone told you that carries a rifle,
there's ten people behind them in support. So not every
person that's in the military is an infantry. I got
a great education when I went to advanced military training.
(25:17):
I went to wheel vehicle mechanics school. I learned all
about trucks, and that became my whole life's work. I
was auto mechanic my whole life. So I'm one hundred
percent for this.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Thank you for your service too. He makes such a
good point, Dan, It's not just Israel, Norway, Sweden, Denmark,
North Korea and Israel are have long required women to
register for the draft and be conscripted.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
It's it's it's.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Been the way. It's been that way in a lot
of countries for a long time. And it's and it's
not crazy countries. I mean Sweden and Norwayian.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
Yes, that's true.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I have to say that you're right, corrected me.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
But those countries, each of those countries, I believe. In Israel, Uh,
it's it's a relatively small population of you know whatever,
the population is twelve million people surround the one hundred
country people.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
But except for North Korea, those other countries are deeply
committed to equality of women, men and women, and that's
why they do it.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Oh no, I understand. I've never been, ah from a
legal perspective, never been a believer in US following the
laws of other countries or emulating the WAW the laws
of other countries. I feel that we are best able
in this country to figure out what type of society
we want to have here. But I understand your point.
(26:39):
I mean, there was, for example, in the in the
Dutch army, uh back many years ago. I remember, uh,
the flavor of the month was you could you could
be in the Dutch army and you could have your hair,
you know, as long as you wanted it. You could
grow beards and stuff. I don't think that would work
in the US military under any circumstances.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
But yeah, just a little different.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
I think that, yes, we are.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
A little different from that. Hey, great call, Arian again,
Thank you much. We'll talk soon. Thanks my friend.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Absolutely, I have a great night.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
All right. I'd like to get a couple of calls
from women in here. Coming up next we have Bill
and Mike and Brian six one seven, two four ten
thirty is those lines are full, let's go. If you
ladies six one seven nine thirty. Uh, you want your daughters,
do you, particularly if you're young, if you're an eighteen
year old woman. Look, I don't think the draft will
(27:32):
ever come back in this country realistically, and I need
to say that because that colors my opinion on this.
I think the next war we fight will not involve
big war, will not involve ground troops. And there's a
lot in the military who don't want the draft and
military leadership who don't want the draft to come back,
and they're very happy with the volunteer military that we
(27:54):
currently have. But the fact of the matter is selective
service obligation is on the books for men in the
ages of eighteen and twenty six, and Wendy Murphy will
argue that that obligation should also be extended to women.
She will argue make that argument in federal court here
in Boston on next Thursday, and eventually we'll find out
how she does here in Boston, and it probably get appealed,
(28:16):
and it may she may end up with this case
in front of the US Supreme Court. We'll be right
back on Nightside after this.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
It's Nightside with Dan Ray on w Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
We're talking with attorney Wendy Murphy. By the case she'll
be arguing in Federal District court here in Boston next Thursday,
gonna go next to Bill in Pennsylvania, build next on Knights.
I go right ahead.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Hey, thanks Dan. I wanted to ask your guests. I'm
all for it. Okay. This has been one of my
arguments for the last twenty years that if men, if
men have to register, women have to register. I wanted
to ask. I can picture Wendy in my mind because
I remember her being on a real famous case. I
(29:00):
can't remember what case. What case was that, Wendy?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Oh, I don't know. I worked on television for a
long time, so I'm not sure which case you're referring to.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, okay, Billy got a question on the topic at hand,
because I have full calls behind you.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Okay, now my question is it okay to Wendy? Wendy
right now? Okay? So men, men right now have to
register for the draft when they hit eighteen, right, Yeah,
that's correct. Okay, Now what if what if they identify
as a woman? How does that work?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I love you.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
What a great question. I think the answer is transgender
people are not allowed to register. I think there's even
a new rule about where they can serve. If they
can serve, I correct me if I'm wrong, But I
think a new rule came out this year on that.
But the but the bottom line is probably that the
law would go by your biological u you know, at
(30:00):
birth sex. Yes, so I think just because you identify
as a female, if you are male biologically you still
have to register.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
That's my guest.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And if you're female and you transition to male but
you've got female jeens, you cannot register.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
All right, Bill, good questions, Thank you, thank you much.
Got to keep rolling here. I get a whole bunch
of calls, Bill, They got to get to other folks.
Thank you. Let me go to Mike and Belmont. Mike
next on Nightsager, right ahead, Okay, how you doing? Fine?
You ready? Let's go right ahead. You're on with Wendy Murphy. Mike,
go ahead.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (30:38):
I'm on a three side offense with this whole thing,
so I have no problem with it. But I'm just
not sure some some women are just as good as
you know, militarily lives as as the men. But the
funny thing is one European country tried this a long
time ago. I don't know, I don't Cara Coleho was
(31:01):
their male counterparts. When that when the women were serving,
they couldn't get over and they're gonna get a little
graphic here, they couldn't get over seeing them blown apart
on the battlefield.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, that sounds anecdotal to me. I don't I have
not heard that story before.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Mike.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Wendy has already mentioned that there's several European countries that
have women uh exposed to the same conscription.
Speaker 7 (31:27):
I'm on the fence three different, three different, three different
ways there, So I I'm.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Sorry, don't get hurt. Whatever you do, climb down carefully
off the fence. Okay, Thanks mine, talk to your later,
have a good one, good night. Let me go to
Jane and Everett. Jeane, go right ahead. I don't want
anyone to get injured on this program. Jane, You're next
on Nice with Wendy Murphy.
Speaker 8 (31:45):
Go ahead, Gene, Hi, Hi, Jane, Hi, Wendy. So, Wendy,
I have seen you in the past and television with
many cases, and you were great with representing people, helping
people out. So, but I do not agree with this,
and I just have one question for you before I
tell you. Why do you have children? Have you ever
(32:05):
had children?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I have five children and a grandchild.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Okay, so you could take that one off the table, Jean,
go ahead, what's your question.
Speaker 8 (32:15):
No, No, The thing is, I think the last time
I remember someone liberating us women was when they took
us out of the home, away from our children and
sent us to work. And it's been hell ever since.
And weildren are not getting the attention they need.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Not all, not all women are going to agree with that, Jeane.
That's a point of view that you have.
Speaker 8 (32:36):
The children need their mothers, they don't need the matching
off to war. I totally totally don't like.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
The whole fair enough, Okay, I suspect they probably No
matter what what argument Wendy might muster here, I don't
think she's going to change your mind.
Speaker 8 (32:51):
Yep. I just don't like it. I think.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
I respect I respect your opinion, Jane, I really do,
and you're entitled to it and me. You know, for me,
I'm not telling anybody what's right for them. I'm trying
to fight for women's equality. And to me, you know,
if you if women want equality, they have to be
willing to serve their country equally. And that's this is
(33:15):
part of the equation.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
It's it's not a.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
One way street for women. But I think, I mean
it's I know you're saying it's not good for children,
won't I won't debate that with you.
Speaker 8 (33:23):
You may be right, but I think if women wanted this,
they would have gone after it through the years.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Okay, Jean Geane, I got one more caller who I
want to try to get in here as well. I
think you've made your position very clear and I appreciate
your point of view. Thank you so much. Have a
nice weekend. Let me go next to Brian. Brian. They
spelled your name wrong. It's down. Unless your name is Brain,
I'm going to assume it's Brian in West Roxford.
Speaker 9 (33:46):
Go ahead, Brian, Brian and west right. And I've talked
to you a few times.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
All right, no problem.
Speaker 9 (33:52):
I'm maybe two years old before the registry happened. I
get drafted in nineteen sixty five.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Okay, and I have.
Speaker 9 (34:02):
No problem with women in the military.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Okay, Well, you're in the majority. I think my audience
by overwhelming majority. I think Jane was the only caller
who was a post of this. Virtually everyone has said
they they are either supportive of it or they're not.
Speaker 9 (34:22):
Well, I am as long as if you can make
it through basic train and you can make it.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Yeah, well that's true. Having having gone through that experience,
I know exactly what you mean. Thanks, Thanks, Brian, I
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 9 (34:38):
And have a good night. Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Wendy. Wendy's the guest. Jean was the prior caller.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Thanks, thank you, thank you so much. Thanks for your service.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Okay, so let's just recap here the cases argued next Thursday. Realistically,
it would take a sitting federal judge. No, I don't
suspect you're going to get a decision on this much
before the end of the year. That's a sort of
a time guess. Yeah, that's always a guess. And whoever prevails,
(35:15):
I suspect it would get kicked up to the first Circuit,
and who knows, it may end up argued not this
not this year at the US Supreme Court, but maybe
in the term of twenty six twenty seven. Either way,
it's a fascinating case. Wehn they you present it well
as I knew you would, and I am I'm pleasantly
(35:38):
surprised that you have as much support for it as well.
It's easier to be supportive of it now that the
draft has been you know, inactive for fifty or fifty two.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, that's a fair point. You know, I probably
would have fought for it even if it was active,
because again, I'm an advocate for women's quality. My feeling
is it's a two way street. Women should serve their
country equally, and in return for that, they should get
full legal equality. And if women are going to be
dying and bleeding to death on the front lines of
(36:11):
battle alongside men, they damn well ought to die as
fully equal citizens under the constitution. That's the very simple point.
It's my point. It's the purpose of this lawsuit, and
it's about time, all right.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
And it's about time that I've got to wrap the hours.
So perfect segue. Thank you, Wendy. We'll talk again. I'm
so glad you checked in with us earlier in the week.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Dan, keep us posted, Okay, I will follow this obviously closely,
but don't hesitate to keep me close.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Keep me posted on you will, yes, I will, thank
you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
All right. When we get back right after the ten
o'clock news, we're going to change focus as we often
do at the top of the hour, and we're going
to talk about Ukraine, but talk about it from the
perspective of is Vladimir Putin has he played Donald Trump.
It has been now five weeks since they met in Alaska,
and Putin went home and Trump came back to President
(37:06):
Trump came back to Washington, and there was some optimism
that maybe Putin had seen the light. The only light
that he has shed has been bombs over Ukraine and
also now some Russian planes over other Eastern NATO countries,
Poland and Estonia. I believe as recently as today. We'll
(37:28):
get to all of that. If you want to call early.
You have the numbers back on night Side, right after
the news at the top of the hour.
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