May 5, 2025 • 38 mins
The Massachusetts Department of Education proposes that state vocational schools use admission lotteries. This proposal comes after years of criticism by some claiming the current admissions process at Vo-techs across the state, lock marginalized students out. Instead of ranking applicants on selective criteria like grades, recommendations from guidance counselors, and personal interviews, schools would be limited to using attendance and discipline as screening criteria for students to enter the lottery pool. Jamie Gass, the director for school reform at the Pioneer Institute checked in with Dan to discuss.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z
Boston's new video all Right.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
During the eight o'clock hour, we talked with former Massachusetts
Lieutenant Governor Tim Murray and the administration of which he
was a part of. The Deval Patrick administration did some
good things in terms of vocational technical vocational education or
(00:28):
VOKE tech schools, and now there seems to be a
group of people out there who are inexplicably attempting to
make it more difficult for kids who really have shown
an interest in going to one of these vocational educational
technical high schools. And as I understand that there are
(00:49):
dozens across the state, they may not get the headlines
that some of the schools do, or you know, some
of the athletic performances of the teams do. But the
these are kids who are going through high school and
they're learning a trade, and they will come out at
the age of eighteen and be able to apply that trade,
(01:11):
whether it's again electronics or plumbing or HVAC, all the
sorts of things that all of us who happen to
own a home realize don't it's beyond our capacity to
fix this stuff. For the most part, certainly beyond mind.
And that's why we have to rely upon these workmen
and these experts who have much greater mechanical aptitude and
(01:35):
technical aptitude than I would ever dream of. And so
today we're going to take up their cause. And joining
us is Jamie Gass. Jamie works with the Pioneer Institute.
I guess they now call it the Pioneer Boston Institute.
Its name has changed.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
A little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
He is the director for school reform at the Pioneer Institute. Jamie,
what is going on here? I thought that everybody would
be supportive of whatever educational school vote tech schools wanted
to do in Massachusetts. This is one that was drawn
my my attention was attracted to it. Today we talked
with Tim Murray in the first hour. I'm not sure
(02:17):
if you heard that interview or not, but this is
our follow up interview with you, which will allow people
to participate. What's going on? Who are the forces at
play here? Why is this even an issue?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Well, first of all, Dan, thanks so much for bringing
attention to the topic. And you know your correct. Tim
Murray really provided an enormous amount of leadership, not only
when he was Lieutenant commentor but really, going back to
when he was mayor of Worcester, he and Sheila Herrity
who ran Worcester Tech, and Ted Coughlin from the business
community really made Worcester Tech a national model in urban
(02:54):
vote tech schools. You know, the thing is is that
it really is the success of the vote Tech school
has really been one of the best stories in Massachusetts
over the last thirty years. The state has done historically
well on every national and international measure of K twelve achievement.
It's been a remarkable byproduct of all of the work
(03:16):
it was done. But he had performed law Tom Birmingham,
Bill Weld and others. But the group of pre existing
schools that have had the biggest academic improvement on top
of their occupational educational work has been these Volkee Tech schools.
So it really they were a group of schools that
for many years were not always high on many kids
list of priorities to go to. They were always very
(03:38):
good at occupational education. Then they had to take the
MCAST test and the academic standards and they met that standard.
There was some resistance to it, but they embraced that
accountability and these schools really have become a national model,
and so, like we've seen with other parts of that reform,
it could be the mcast test. Within the last year
(04:00):
or two with the ballot initiative. We've seen it with
charter schools. The thing that's disconcerting is is that as
the successful school models, and the both tech schools are
a remarkably successful model, as they begin to achieve success,
then some of the special interest groups or some of
the political opponents begin to circle the wagons against them.
(04:20):
And that's what we've seen with this move to have
a lottery instead of sort of a minimum ad missions
requirement for the both tech schools.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
So what would be the ideal situation, I guess as
it exists now, that a young man or a young
woman who looks at four years in the ivy covered
halls and buildings of colleges and they say, well, gee,
that's really not for me. You know, I said to
(04:50):
someone today, I think I said it in our conversation.
Everybody talks about this concept of IQ. You know, what's
your intelligent quotion? I believe that all of us have
many many IQs. Yeah, we have an intellectual IQ, maybe
we have a literary IQ, maybe we have verbal IQ.
Mathematical IQ. But we have technical IQs. I have no
(05:13):
technical IQ whatsoever. Athletic IQ's a musical IQs. There's there's
probably one hundred IQs that make up all of us,
and the one that we might enjoy the most is
what we would like to, you know, do with our lives.
There is I think that there's a there's a curiosity IQ.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Einstein, and I've quoted him before. Einstein' said I have
no special talent. I'm only passionately curious. I'm not Einstein,
but I kind of identify with that because I always
like to know what's going on and curiosity. Why is
it there are people out there in the political I
(05:59):
hones sphere who look at every situation not from the
point of view what is best for the people who
are involved in that, but how wn this help to help?
How will this help to hurt or help my impact
my political career? I mean, because that's what I see
(06:20):
as interfering here. And if I'm being cynical, call me
out and tell me that I'm being cynical. But I
truly believe that that there are forces at play here
that are going to affect the lives of hundreds, maybe
thousands of young people in Massachusetts and adversely impact the
lives of these people.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Yeah, Dan, I think you're exactly right. I mean, this
is definitely a situation where the politics are going before
sound educational policy. You said, you know, what would you desire?
You desire what we've had for the last thirty years.
Actually it goes back longer that, because they've the VOKE
Tech schools are a national model in Massachusetts. And the
reason why is that there was really great policy making
(07:03):
a century ago. They had some minimum admissions requirements going
back all that time, and that served the state and
the students and frankly, the the economic environment and the
workforce development needs of the state in different regions unbelievably well.
So what you would want is kids that are interested
(07:25):
in this kind of education would be able to pick it,
and that they would be able to go and do
and pursue the you know, work in carpentry and plumbing, HVAC,
auto repair, et cetera. And in fact, you know, the
vote texticools that have branched out into the life sciences
and a whole variety of the other fields that are
you know, unheard of even thirty years ago. But that's
(07:47):
what you would want. You want kids and families to
be able to pick the kind of education that they're
most is most suited to their interests because they're going
to be more invested in it, they're going to have
more you know, interest in it, and and that process
of picking it also gets the you know, the there,
It gets them engaged in the work that they're going
(08:08):
to be doing, both as a student, uh and as
a you know, in in their careers. And so what
you would want is what we've had, and that's our
view is basically, you know, it's like the hippocratic of
first do no harm. And that's the thing that we're
really concerned about. We've been working on this topic for
a long time. We've been working closely with people like
(08:28):
Kim Murray and MAVA and the leadership of MAVA, Steve
Sherrick and and UH Dave Ferreira, because it's unsound policy
really going.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Back whenever someone mentions an acronym on this show, they
have to tell us.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
What is MAVA.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Oh yeah, it's then Mastheuse's Association of Vo Tech Administrators.
So they're the sort of the the the the the
the trade group around represents vote tech administrators in the state.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Will we get back when we get back? I want
you to explain what a young person, and we're talking
about somebody who I assume is somewhere in the age
range of twelve, thirteen, fourteen, someone who is on the
cusp of going into high school, what they need to
do today to find a seat at the table in
(09:23):
the voke educational technical school of their choice. All of
us know that in order to get into the quote
unquote academic high schools or into the great quote unquote universities,
they have to take sit down examinations, and the examinations
(09:45):
will take multiple choice questions. They'll have all sorts of
manners and ways in which they tried to determine if
the student can academically handle the coursework. That's what it
comes down to. If you want to go what a
great college. You want to make sure that your son
or daughter is not in over their head, that they're challenged,
(10:08):
but they're not drowning in academia. But it's a different
standard here. I want to talk about that as to
what the status is today and what people out there
who are more interested in their political future political fortunes,
(10:28):
what they are suggesting the changes that should be made.
And I also wanting to invite people who have gone
to voke at schools of parents of kids who are
in vocational education schools, tell us what it's been like
for them, because when they graduate at the age of
eighteen with a diploma and can go into the workforce
(10:54):
immediately again as an electrician, as a plumber, as any
of the these crafts and trades which all of us need.
That truly is what the commonwealth. I love the politicians
who keep referring to the commonwealth. The commonwealth involves not
only people who are great, you know, philosopher kings and
(11:17):
speech writers and uh and college professors and sociologists and
all of those soft sciences. But but when when they're
plumbing is backed up, or their electricity fails uh, or
their fireplaces and working, or their HVAC system isn't working,
(11:38):
all of them are looking for someone as soon as possible.
Tough to get them these days in Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
And when and when you.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Do get them, uh, it generally is gonna you're gonna
be You're gonna say, why.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Did realize they've made that much money?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Well, guess what they're worth it because they can solve
your problem. Back on NIGHTSI with my guest Jamie gass
or the Pioneer Institute of Boston. It's a great organization.
It really came of its It's came of age when
Bill Weld was governor UH and when Tom Burmingham himself
(12:13):
a Harvard guy who really understood this that the same
educational shoe does not the same size, that does not
fit all. Back on Nightside, here's our phone number six
one seven, two five four ten thirty or six one
seven nine three one ten thirty, and I would love
to hear from as many of you as possible who
(12:33):
have some experience and positive experience within these folk at
schools and why changing the admissions formula is going to
adversely impact a lot of people sadly here in Massachusetts.
And I remind you the common Wealth of Massachusetts. Back
on Nightside, right after this.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
By the way, if it's want to get through, the
only line that we have up with right now is
six one seven, nine three thirty. We're going to get
to Tracy, Brian and Steve in just a moment, But
explain to me if you could just in a couple
of minutes before the news break here, Jamie Gass of
the Pioneer Institute, What do you have to do? Everybody
(13:20):
knows that in order to get into you know, the
academic high schools that to private high schools, the Roxbury
Latins and the Belmont Hills and the Catholic Memorials in
the BC highs, you have to take an exam. You
have to prove to them that you can deal with
the qualifications. What do you have to do to this
(13:44):
in this day and age currently to get a seat
at a VOKEE Tech Educational high school?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Great question. Yeah, So, going back many many decades, if
not longer, there's basically been five categories of requirements that
are necessary for entrance to a voke Tech school. Grades, attendance,
student discipline, guidance, counselor's recommendation, and then a personal interview.
(14:11):
And all of that is done to ensure that the
incoming students are actually interested in doing this work because
it's a particular kind of education. Rights if you go
to Boston Latin, or if you go to certain charter
schools or what have you it's a particular kind of
education that you're in a way picking and you're investing
(14:33):
the time and the tax payers money and students' effort
into it. And no boke tech schools have this sort
of machinery and equipment. It's more expensive. It's a more
expensive form of education. So these basic criteria are just
an assurance that the kids that are coming into the
(14:53):
classroom and are going to be devoting an enormous amount
of concentrated effort. These schools are very what I always
describe it as students centered. They are the whole sense
of community around these schools is palpable when you walk
in there, and so they want to ensure that the
students are genuinely interested in it and that it's going
(15:13):
to be safe because as Nio Ferreira, who is a
longtime votech leader in Massachusetts, has always said, you know,
if you have thirty kids in a classroom with welding torches,
you want to make sure that it's safe and you
want to make sure that the kids are going to
be well behaved at a minimum. Right, So student safety
has to do with this.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Too, Okay, So that's how it currently works. And if
some student shows episodes.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, I like to go. I really don't know how
much about it. I don't have a big interest in it.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
But I'm really tired of going to high school and
having to learn about you know, English and history and.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
All those those subjects bore me. So I'd like to
try this.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
That's not then necessarily assume that they want to bring
in I assume.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Yeah, I think it's true on some level. I mean,
one of the things that happened under the said reform.
So now the vokee tech schools, you know, they take
MCAST tests, they take they doing a regular English masks
the way any comprehensive high school, and they alternate it
really by week. But that's exactly right, you don't. I mean,
this is the kind of education that is very much
(16:21):
driven by the interest of the students. The students picked
the school, and then within the school, they pick the
various shops that they're going to be working carpentry, plumbing,
et cetera. So you really want to have a kid
whose interest is in those fields because that is going
to ensure that they're more successful.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
And how are our.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Political leaders who want to change it, what do they
want they want to change it to sort of a.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Lottery, that's right. It goes back almost a decade, and
it's something that as researchers and as policy analysts we've
been we've worked on for a long time. We've done
books and policy papers and events and op eds around it.
But it really goes back, I think to the mayor
of New Bedford, John Mitchell, who hasn't in truth, he's
(17:12):
been there since I think around twenty twelve or so,
he hasn't had a lot of success improving the academic
achievement within the within the New Bedford public schools, and
so he has seen the vote tech schools and he
really led almost the kind of political movement in recent
years to try to begin to tinker with what I
(17:34):
think is, you know, again a nationally recognized model. But
it's mostly because a lot of the urban comprehensive high
schools have not been able to deliver the academic performance,
the low dropout rates, all of the things that these
old tech schools have earned through their hard work and
their focus in the last twenty thirty years, and so
(17:58):
he has been able to kind of drive this effort,
which is included filing complaints at the US Department of Education.
But it's really become from my point of view, it's
a manufactured crisis because these are demonstrably successful schools. The
Vokee Tech schools have delivered on virtually everything that they've
(18:20):
been asked to do and more under ed reform. They've
always done a great job at occupational education. Now they're
even doing as well or better than the comprehensive high schools.
And so you have opponents that are trying to score
political points against a group of schools that have hit
the cover off the ball. And it's pretty hard to
watch because you know, like the like so many things,
(18:41):
is sort of this weaky wheels getting the grease, and
the more the opponents complain and they bring their grievances
to the board of bed or to to Beacon Hill,
the more it seems like it's you know, reasonable, But
in fact, what they're really trying to do is create
a lottery which won't, actually, my you, address a lot
(19:04):
of the issues of diversity that they claim is a
big problem at these schools. Because the schools the book
textoos do really represent and have generally speaking represented, they're
sending communities. So they've got to manufactured this this crisis
and will will I will.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
End this segment on an ung grammatical note, which is,
if it ain't broke, don't fix it, as simple as that.
So we're going to take a break. Jamie Gass of
the Pioneer Institute is my guest. We're going to get
to phone calls. I only have one line if you
want to get in six, one, seven, nine, three, one,
ten thirty. We'll talk with Jamie until ten o'clock, and
(19:42):
then I'm going to talk about a frightening incident that
I observed yesterday morning, and I think some of you
will be able to identify with it. It includes driving
your car, if that'll give you a hint. Back on
Night Side right after this with Jamie Gass.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
We're on to Night Side with Dan Ray on w
b Z, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
My guess Jamie Gass or the Pioneer Institute.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Earlier in the eight o'clock hour, we talked with Tim Murray,
former Lieutenant governor also the head of the Chamber of
Commerce in Worcester, Massachusetts, about an effort to make acceptance
to vote tech educational schools in Massachusetts to be done
(20:28):
on a lottery basis if we can provide vote tech
education to kids in Massachusetts who are so inclined, then
we should go out of the education business and turn
it over to the private sector. Simple as that. Maybe
go back to the apprentice system.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Jamie, you're ready for some phone calls.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Absolutely, let's go.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
We got Tracy in Medway. Tracy, welcome to Nightside. You
were first this week, first this hour on Night Side
with Jamie Gass or the Pioneer Institute. Go ahead, Tracy.
What's your comment or question? Oh?
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Thanks, Dan, It's more of a comment than a question.
I'm actually a school committee member at Tri County Regional
Book Tech representing the town of Medway, one of the
towns in our eleven District school district. And you know,
I ninety one. I still work within my field to
(21:20):
this day, and my child graduated last year. And I
think the experience I want to share and Jamie might
have some comments on, is my my own child's experience,
which was K through five trying to get into a
charter school in our neighboring town of Franklin. We didn't
(21:42):
get in, and then when it came to applying to
high school Norfolk Gaggy was her first choice and she
was waitlisted within the top eight. And this is this
is testimony that I shared with the Board of ED
recently in my written statement. You know, there were folks
that I tabled over the past year at the legislative
(22:04):
level who has suggested to me that at the time
that my child was weightless at the Northwolk Gaggy, that
I probably should have filed a discriminatory complaint because my
child is an IEP student, and I felt that was
very unjust. We know the MSBA is doing wrong by
(22:24):
a lot of projects within the state who are currently
building new schools, including Tri County, and haven't increased our capacity.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Jamie quick comment on Tracy's story.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
Well, you know, and Tracy's right. I mean, both the
vote tech schools and the charter schools really have long waitless.
The vote tech schools I think have ten thousand, approximately
ten thousand students that are on weightless. I think the
charter schools are twenty thousand. So there's an enormous demand.
What that's telling us that there's an enormous devan for
these kinds of schools, you know, in terms of the
(22:57):
vote text. I mean, look, they have a higher percentage
of students with special needs than the and they're sending
districts and the and the and the state wide figures,
so they are serving and frankly, one of the things
that they have been better at than anybody in the
state is serving kids with special needs, so you know,
(23:17):
they they are particularly good at it. But look, I
agree with you, there is a there there's a huge
weight list uh for voke Tech schools, and that's that's
why the focus should be on retiring that wait list
and expanding voke Tech schools, which is a national model,
and not distracting everybody with all these you know, changes
(23:41):
in policies and kind of move the goalposts on schools
that have done a great job.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Could agree with you more.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Tracy, thank you for advocating for your daughter and also
for other kids in your school district. You sound like
a great mom and a great educational leader. I'd love
to see you run for public higher public office, and
I'm serious when I say that, and get and get
some independent thinkers, more independent thinkers at the state House,
(24:09):
because too many of them just follow the crowd.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Simple as that.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Thank you, we have we have some great supporters. I
am the legislative subcommittee chair at Tri County. Uh, m
A s C has our day on the hill tomorrow.
We will be advocating for these things for the both
tech schools. And if if anybody hasn't mentioned it already,
there is a coalition that has been formed in response
(24:35):
to what's been going on, and that's m A v
O c t e c h Coalition dot org. Uh
we we've got the support of MAVA and m A
s C. And also MATHDTV.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Okay, give us that website one more time, slowly so
everybody can copy it down.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Go ahead.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Sure it's m A v O c t E. So
it's Math Book Tech Coalition dot org.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Pretty simple, that's easy. M A v O c t
e ch Coalition dot org. Thanks Tracy, you've ever run
for public office. I'll endorse you or your opponent whichever
helps you more.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Night, have a great night. Good night. Let me go
to Brian and Attleborough.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Hey Brian, welcome you next on a nice side with
Jamie Gassot the Pioneer Institute.
Speaker 6 (25:29):
Hi Dan, how are you the Seaton Brian?
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Go right ahead?
Speaker 6 (25:32):
Your question for me, Well, I actually graduated from a
vocational high school. Good for you as a plumber. I've
actually owned my own business for over twenty years now.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
How many employees do you have. I bet you've got
a few people working for you.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I do.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
I have five employees, perfect, And I actually also teach
at the vocational high school. But I graduated from I
teach plumbing. I teach plumbing and AH track night. So
I mean, and my association that I've wanted to as
a plumber. We also advocate for vocational high schools. We
(26:11):
give scholarships for kids graduating from the vocational programs every year,
you know, so they can continue their education and get
into the fields. But I see the biggest I mean,
vocational high schools have done fantastic things, and that's because
they follow very strict policies and if you don't kind
of do good grades and keep up with the stuff,
(26:33):
they'll send you back to the public school that you
came from. And I think that's what's made like New
Bedford and stuff like that. Mayor is very jealous of
the fact that they have very strict policies of who
they want into the school, because you know, we want
people who are actually going to come into the trades.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Absolutely, it's it's I mean it's look, you're working almost
against your own interest, but it's it's very expensive to
hire good tradesman for your home. All of that, and
I think it's I think I know so many friends
of mine, you know, who are tradesmen, and they're the
(27:12):
people that really make this country run. You know, when
you've got a problem with the plumbing hit your house,
if the hot water doesn't work, the electricity doesn't work,
the ac doesn't work, whatever, you know, you guys bail
us out. You have much more important than some state
rep as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
I tell my classes as you're a professional, no different
than a lawyer or a doctor. We spend absolutely we
spend hundreds of hours in classes because I teach them.
So you know, we spend five hundred and fifty hours
in classes as an apprentice, over seven thousand hours in
the field working as an apprentice to you're even qualified
to take a license test, so you know, it's you know,
(27:55):
it's a it's not an easy job to get through.
You have to there's a lot of time and effort
put into the you know, to become you know, a tradesman.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Next next time, next time someone needs a plumber, have
them call a lawyer or a doctor.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And see see see what sort of quicker.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
We all have certain Brian, we all have certain skills.
Your skills, your mechanical aptitude, which which I can't even
come close to. Okay, you might not be able to
run a talk show. Maybe you could. It's probably easier
for you to run a talk show then for me
to to do electrical or plumbing work.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
So thank you for much.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
We have talents, and you want to find these kids
when they're young and put them into these industries because
you know they can make a good living at it.
You know, college isn't for everybody.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
But absolutely nothing for guidance.
Speaker 6 (28:46):
Councils has been pushing college for forty years. Oh yeah yeah,
which is driven people away from trade schools.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I call it the academic industrial complex.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
So you know I.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
Feel yeah, yeah, you're right about that. I mean, you
know when you look at the average ageable plumber and
masses fifty five years old.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah all right, Look, I appreciate your time, Brian, thank
you for what you do.
Speaker 6 (29:07):
Both and Judge, it's a great it's a great Dan.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
You bet you anytime. Thanks Brian. Keep listening to Night's
side take very quick break. My guest is Jamie Gass
of the Pioneer Institute.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
They are a very important organization from an academic point
of view here because you have to have people who
can literally fight on Beacon Hill, and there are just
too many fights on.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Beacon Hill for to deal with.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's as simple as that. We'll be back on Nightside
right after this.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Back to the phones.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
We're going to try to get everybody in quickly here
because we're running a little late with Jamie Gass, Steven Cambridge,
Steve next on Nightside.
Speaker 7 (29:53):
Jamie, Jamie, I'm interested in knowing what the argument is
that the proponents of are making. I guess it has
to do a lot with admissions and when you mentioned lottery,
I guess it has a lot to do with probably
there are not enough black and Latino students in these schools.
(30:14):
Could you explain what the opposition is saying?
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, look, we're in a moment
here where there's an opposition to any kind of requirements
for entrance. You see this with the Boston Exam schools.
You've seen it recently, the debate over and the ballid
initia over mcass that I think is what is troubling them.
I mean, the thing from my point of view, that's
it's some of the best models that you find in
(30:41):
the in Vogue Tech and Massachusetts have been Worcester Tech
an urban school district, Springfield's, Putnam an urban school, urban
vote tech school, Greater New Bedroom votech So some of
the sort of the shining spars of the Vogue Tech
constellation have been urban reform efforts. And you know, I
(31:02):
mentioned Tim Murray, he was he provided a ton releadership.
President Obama came and visited Worcester Tech. Late Secretary of
State General Colin Powell's is it so you have two
of perhaps the most prominent African American figure of political
figures in the last thirty forty years that came and
(31:23):
recognized Massachusetts work on vokee tech schools, but also in
particular their ability to serve poor and minority kids. And
so I just don't I don't think these arguments hold
a lot of water.
Speaker 7 (31:35):
What is the argument? Is the argument a racial argument?
That's my question is that what they're saying is I.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Think that that I think that is certainly a feature
of at least that I think that's part of the
political motivations of the folks that are driving this. And again,
you if you look at the composition of the voke
Tech schools in Massachusetts, they generally have mirrored the communities
of descending districts. And you know, I think it's something
like ninety seven percent of the Volkue Tech schools when
(32:07):
this topic was brought up for the boardervand a couple
of years ago, like ninety seven percent of them made
minor adjustments to accommodate it. And here we are three
or four years later, and the opposition is still at
it with this lottery that again just seems like it
is a very poor way to make policy on a
(32:28):
group of schools that have done absolutely everything in our
national model.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Thank you very much, Thanks Steve.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
By the way, Boston Land School from the school I
graduated from, which was used to be a very highly
academically competitive school, it's now a zip code school. So
depending upon the zip code that you live in, increases
or decreases your chances to participate. Domingo is in Boston, Domingo.
Welcome next on Nice That with Jamie ga Gas A
little tight on time, Dimingo got.
Speaker 8 (32:57):
Ahead, Hey dom gut, thanks or even bringing up a conversation.
You know, I'm a vote tech grad from Madison Park
class in ninety six, and you know, it's great to
hear a lot of these different opinions and input because
the reality is, you know, the gate the gateway to
you know, the middle classes through the.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Trades absolutely couldn't agree with you.
Speaker 8 (33:18):
Great point, students, regardless of if it's a college or
a trade school, you know, we're still promoting learning something new.
I tell a lot of the young folks that I
mentor who I encourage to go into the trades. Uh
here in Boston that regardless if it's a laboratory in
a college or a laboratory in a in a trade school,
(33:40):
then you know, in the plumbing lab or or an
electrical lab or so forks, it's still learning. So you know,
we have to encourage our kids to want to learn.
And that's a lot of the conversations that I'm having
with parents. There's no difference between either or It's still
a learning process. It's just your interest of learning, right,
So a lot of young people their interests in learning
(34:02):
are different, and we're not able to adapt to those
interests because we're too busy letting folks who you know,
hold these PhDs, uh and these different degrees, but they
don't have real life experience when it comes to what
people are looking for and the trades from help to
building to you know, waterfootration and so forth. It's a necessity.
(34:26):
So I wanted to bring in my point of view
from Boston, where we don't have an issue with the
waiting lists. Madison Park is empty, it's been empty for
a few years.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Let's get more Let's get more kids, Domingo, Let's let's
introduce more kids. Toe.
Speaker 8 (34:41):
Yeah, it's the political will of the people who are
in control, you know, Like you're saying the State House
doesn't want to add schools to different districts. Meanwhile, here
in Boston, the administration is not looking to add more
children into the classroom. Some of them got two million,
two hundred million dollars for new building. Madison got a
little to little to under twenty million from the state
(35:02):
to improve its its you know, surroundings. We're asking the
state for seven hundred million to rebuild the school so
we can compete with the other thirteen schools. We're number
fourteen out.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Of the Well, you know, there's no reason why they shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
They just raised a whole bunch of money with the
millionaire's tax, which is supposed to be dedicated to education
and transportation. That money should be there for the City
of Boston public schools if they were better run to
get that money for the kids.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Domingo, thank you for calling. Have you called my show before?
Speaker 8 (35:31):
Yes, I have. This is the same Domingo's that that
calls in all the time with the other issues face.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Oh absolutely, Dimingo.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
You're a great listener and great caller, and you make
great points. Thank you, my friend. Keep calling. Okay, thank
you much. Gonna get one more room. We're gonna go
up to the great state of Maine.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Richard.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
We only got a couple of minutes for you. You
are the last in line. You go right ahead, Richard Dan.
Speaker 9 (35:52):
I'm a graduator from the Tri County Regional that bury
first class. Good for you that ever grad graduated from
their hospitality program. The education I got in there, plus
the education I got from Boston College, has allowed me
the opportunity to not only own hotels, but to invest
(36:12):
in hotels. I think what people need to realize. And
when I hire students for like intern for the summer,
I take kids that want to learn in the trade
being electrical or plumbing. Inside my hotels, being in the
food service. My chefs are coming from Johnson and Wales
(36:33):
Cia Coloring Institute of America, and to cut out the trades.
Some people are not book smart. I was lucky and
blessed in life. I was book smart, and I wanted
a trade. And for this state to try to take
that away and make it a lottery, not everybody is
book smart and rent them at King Phillip, they tried
(36:54):
this program where they had a vocational school. They cut
it out and they're all now all going to Try
County and it became more of a college practice school.
And that's what the people need to look at. Our
politicians need to realize quit trying to, you know, fight
for their dollar and their own pride and pocket education.
Our elected officiops are paid to do a job for
(37:17):
the people, not Richard.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
You're so articulate and I'm flat out of time. Congratulations.
I got to tell you you are the epitome of
what the success that these these Volke Tech schools provide.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
I don't know if.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
You've called my show before, but I want you to
call you.
Speaker 6 (37:35):
I used to call you when I lived in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, you know what, it's closer in Maine and probably
doesn't cost as much. Only kid, don't be a stranger.
Thanks Richard.
Speaker 6 (37:44):
All right, thank you, Bodie.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Have a great night, Jamie Gass. How can folks get
in touch with the Pioneer Institute on this or other topics?
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Oh, Pioneer Institute dot org. And you can take a
look at our book we published a couple of years
ago on Vokee tech schools called Hands on Achievement Ask
Jesus National Model Book tech Schools. So I encourage people
to take a look at that. It's a great topic. Dan,
thank you so much for having us on my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Jamie, please keep in touch and let's follow this and
let's see if we can do something in the interest
of young people who need some help, simple as that.
And also help the Commonwealth of Massachusetts because we all
GotY you know, assistant deans at colleges.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Some of us have to work for a living. Thanks
so much, appreciate it, Jamie. All right. A little bad
news tonight.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
The Celtics lost to The New York Nikoboker's one O
eight to eighty five. Let's hope they can turn that
around back right after the ten oclock News at night.
So we're going to talk about a very scary situation.
I found myselfie yesterday and I'm glad I was paying attention.
I'll explain
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z
Boston's new video all Right.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
During the eight o'clock hour, we talked with former Massachusetts
Lieutenant Governor Tim Murray and the administration of which he
was a part of. The Deval Patrick administration did some
good things in terms of vocational technical vocational education or
(00:28):
VOKE tech schools, and now there seems to be a
group of people out there who are inexplicably attempting to
make it more difficult for kids who really have shown
an interest in going to one of these vocational educational
technical high schools. And as I understand that there are
(00:49):
dozens across the state, they may not get the headlines
that some of the schools do, or you know, some
of the athletic performances of the teams do. But the
these are kids who are going through high school and
they're learning a trade, and they will come out at
the age of eighteen and be able to apply that trade,
(01:11):
whether it's again electronics or plumbing or HVAC, all the
sorts of things that all of us who happen to
own a home realize don't it's beyond our capacity to
fix this stuff. For the most part, certainly beyond mind.
And that's why we have to rely upon these workmen
and these experts who have much greater mechanical aptitude and
(01:35):
technical aptitude than I would ever dream of. And so
today we're going to take up their cause. And joining
us is Jamie Gass. Jamie works with the Pioneer Institute.
I guess they now call it the Pioneer Boston Institute.
Its name has changed.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
A little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
He is the director for school reform at the Pioneer Institute. Jamie,
what is going on here? I thought that everybody would
be supportive of whatever educational school vote tech schools wanted
to do in Massachusetts. This is one that was drawn
my my attention was attracted to it. Today we talked
with Tim Murray in the first hour. I'm not sure
(02:17):
if you heard that interview or not, but this is
our follow up interview with you, which will allow people
to participate. What's going on? Who are the forces at
play here? Why is this even an issue?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Well, first of all, Dan, thanks so much for bringing
attention to the topic. And you know your correct. Tim
Murray really provided an enormous amount of leadership, not only
when he was Lieutenant commentor but really, going back to
when he was mayor of Worcester, he and Sheila Herrity
who ran Worcester Tech, and Ted Coughlin from the business
community really made Worcester Tech a national model in urban
(02:54):
vote tech schools. You know, the thing is is that
it really is the success of the vote Tech school
has really been one of the best stories in Massachusetts
over the last thirty years. The state has done historically
well on every national and international measure of K twelve achievement.
It's been a remarkable byproduct of all of the work
(03:16):
it was done. But he had performed law Tom Birmingham,
Bill Weld and others. But the group of pre existing
schools that have had the biggest academic improvement on top
of their occupational educational work has been these Volkee Tech schools.
So it really they were a group of schools that
for many years were not always high on many kids
list of priorities to go to. They were always very
(03:38):
good at occupational education. Then they had to take the
MCAST test and the academic standards and they met that standard.
There was some resistance to it, but they embraced that
accountability and these schools really have become a national model,
and so, like we've seen with other parts of that reform,
it could be the mcast test. Within the last year
(04:00):
or two with the ballot initiative. We've seen it with
charter schools. The thing that's disconcerting is is that as
the successful school models, and the both tech schools are
a remarkably successful model, as they begin to achieve success,
then some of the special interest groups or some of
the political opponents begin to circle the wagons against them.
(04:20):
And that's what we've seen with this move to have
a lottery instead of sort of a minimum ad missions
requirement for the both tech schools.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
So what would be the ideal situation, I guess as
it exists now, that a young man or a young
woman who looks at four years in the ivy covered
halls and buildings of colleges and they say, well, gee,
that's really not for me. You know, I said to
(04:50):
someone today, I think I said it in our conversation.
Everybody talks about this concept of IQ. You know, what's
your intelligent quotion? I believe that all of us have
many many IQs. Yeah, we have an intellectual IQ, maybe
we have a literary IQ, maybe we have verbal IQ.
Mathematical IQ. But we have technical IQs. I have no
(05:13):
technical IQ whatsoever. Athletic IQ's a musical IQs. There's there's
probably one hundred IQs that make up all of us,
and the one that we might enjoy the most is
what we would like to, you know, do with our lives.
There is I think that there's a there's a curiosity IQ.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Einstein, and I've quoted him before. Einstein' said I have
no special talent. I'm only passionately curious. I'm not Einstein,
but I kind of identify with that because I always
like to know what's going on and curiosity. Why is
it there are people out there in the political I
(05:59):
hones sphere who look at every situation not from the
point of view what is best for the people who
are involved in that, but how wn this help to help?
How will this help to hurt or help my impact
my political career? I mean, because that's what I see
(06:20):
as interfering here. And if I'm being cynical, call me
out and tell me that I'm being cynical. But I
truly believe that that there are forces at play here
that are going to affect the lives of hundreds, maybe
thousands of young people in Massachusetts and adversely impact the
lives of these people.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Yeah, Dan, I think you're exactly right. I mean, this
is definitely a situation where the politics are going before
sound educational policy. You said, you know, what would you desire?
You desire what we've had for the last thirty years.
Actually it goes back longer that, because they've the VOKE
Tech schools are a national model in Massachusetts. And the
reason why is that there was really great policy making
(07:03):
a century ago. They had some minimum admissions requirements going
back all that time, and that served the state and
the students and frankly, the the economic environment and the
workforce development needs of the state in different regions unbelievably well.
So what you would want is kids that are interested
(07:25):
in this kind of education would be able to pick it,
and that they would be able to go and do
and pursue the you know, work in carpentry and plumbing, HVAC,
auto repair, et cetera. And in fact, you know, the
vote texticools that have branched out into the life sciences
and a whole variety of the other fields that are
you know, unheard of even thirty years ago. But that's
(07:47):
what you would want. You want kids and families to
be able to pick the kind of education that they're
most is most suited to their interests because they're going
to be more invested in it, they're going to have
more you know, interest in it, and and that process
of picking it also gets the you know, the there,
It gets them engaged in the work that they're going
(08:08):
to be doing, both as a student, uh and as
a you know, in in their careers. And so what
you would want is what we've had, and that's our
view is basically, you know, it's like the hippocratic of
first do no harm. And that's the thing that we're
really concerned about. We've been working on this topic for
a long time. We've been working closely with people like
(08:28):
Kim Murray and MAVA and the leadership of MAVA, Steve
Sherrick and and UH Dave Ferreira, because it's unsound policy
really going.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Back whenever someone mentions an acronym on this show, they
have to tell us.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
What is MAVA.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Oh yeah, it's then Mastheuse's Association of Vo Tech Administrators.
So they're the sort of the the the the the
the trade group around represents vote tech administrators in the state.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Will we get back when we get back? I want
you to explain what a young person, and we're talking
about somebody who I assume is somewhere in the age
range of twelve, thirteen, fourteen, someone who is on the
cusp of going into high school, what they need to
do today to find a seat at the table in
(09:23):
the voke educational technical school of their choice. All of
us know that in order to get into the quote
unquote academic high schools or into the great quote unquote universities,
they have to take sit down examinations, and the examinations
(09:45):
will take multiple choice questions. They'll have all sorts of
manners and ways in which they tried to determine if
the student can academically handle the coursework. That's what it
comes down to. If you want to go what a
great college. You want to make sure that your son
or daughter is not in over their head, that they're challenged,
(10:08):
but they're not drowning in academia. But it's a different
standard here. I want to talk about that as to
what the status is today and what people out there
who are more interested in their political future political fortunes,
(10:28):
what they are suggesting the changes that should be made.
And I also wanting to invite people who have gone
to voke at schools of parents of kids who are
in vocational education schools, tell us what it's been like
for them, because when they graduate at the age of
eighteen with a diploma and can go into the workforce
(10:54):
immediately again as an electrician, as a plumber, as any
of the these crafts and trades which all of us need.
That truly is what the commonwealth. I love the politicians
who keep referring to the commonwealth. The commonwealth involves not
only people who are great, you know, philosopher kings and
(11:17):
speech writers and uh and college professors and sociologists and
all of those soft sciences. But but when when they're
plumbing is backed up, or their electricity fails uh, or
their fireplaces and working, or their HVAC system isn't working,
(11:38):
all of them are looking for someone as soon as possible.
Tough to get them these days in Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
And when and when you.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Do get them, uh, it generally is gonna you're gonna
be You're gonna say, why.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Did realize they've made that much money?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Well, guess what they're worth it because they can solve
your problem. Back on NIGHTSI with my guest Jamie gass
or the Pioneer Institute of Boston. It's a great organization.
It really came of its It's came of age when
Bill Weld was governor UH and when Tom Burmingham himself
(12:13):
a Harvard guy who really understood this that the same
educational shoe does not the same size, that does not
fit all. Back on Nightside, here's our phone number six
one seven, two five four ten thirty or six one
seven nine three one ten thirty, and I would love
to hear from as many of you as possible who
(12:33):
have some experience and positive experience within these folk at
schools and why changing the admissions formula is going to
adversely impact a lot of people sadly here in Massachusetts.
And I remind you the common Wealth of Massachusetts. Back
on Nightside, right after this.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
By the way, if it's want to get through, the
only line that we have up with right now is
six one seven, nine three thirty. We're going to get
to Tracy, Brian and Steve in just a moment, But
explain to me if you could just in a couple
of minutes before the news break here, Jamie Gass of
the Pioneer Institute, What do you have to do? Everybody
(13:20):
knows that in order to get into you know, the
academic high schools that to private high schools, the Roxbury
Latins and the Belmont Hills and the Catholic Memorials in
the BC highs, you have to take an exam. You
have to prove to them that you can deal with
the qualifications. What do you have to do to this
(13:44):
in this day and age currently to get a seat
at a VOKEE Tech Educational high school?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Great question. Yeah, So, going back many many decades, if
not longer, there's basically been five categories of requirements that
are necessary for entrance to a voke Tech school. Grades, attendance,
student discipline, guidance, counselor's recommendation, and then a personal interview.
(14:11):
And all of that is done to ensure that the
incoming students are actually interested in doing this work because
it's a particular kind of education. Rights if you go
to Boston Latin, or if you go to certain charter
schools or what have you it's a particular kind of
education that you're in a way picking and you're investing
(14:33):
the time and the tax payers money and students' effort
into it. And no boke tech schools have this sort
of machinery and equipment. It's more expensive. It's a more
expensive form of education. So these basic criteria are just
an assurance that the kids that are coming into the
(14:53):
classroom and are going to be devoting an enormous amount
of concentrated effort. These schools are very what I always
describe it as students centered. They are the whole sense
of community around these schools is palpable when you walk
in there, and so they want to ensure that the
students are genuinely interested in it and that it's going
(15:13):
to be safe because as Nio Ferreira, who is a
longtime votech leader in Massachusetts, has always said, you know,
if you have thirty kids in a classroom with welding torches,
you want to make sure that it's safe and you
want to make sure that the kids are going to
be well behaved at a minimum. Right, So student safety
has to do with this.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Too, Okay, So that's how it currently works. And if
some student shows episodes.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, I like to go. I really don't know how
much about it. I don't have a big interest in it.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
But I'm really tired of going to high school and
having to learn about you know, English and history and.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
All those those subjects bore me. So I'd like to
try this.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
That's not then necessarily assume that they want to bring
in I assume.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Yeah, I think it's true on some level. I mean,
one of the things that happened under the said reform.
So now the vokee tech schools, you know, they take
MCAST tests, they take they doing a regular English masks
the way any comprehensive high school, and they alternate it
really by week. But that's exactly right, you don't. I mean,
this is the kind of education that is very much
(16:21):
driven by the interest of the students. The students picked
the school, and then within the school, they pick the
various shops that they're going to be working carpentry, plumbing,
et cetera. So you really want to have a kid
whose interest is in those fields because that is going
to ensure that they're more successful.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
And how are our.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Political leaders who want to change it, what do they
want they want to change it to sort of a.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Lottery, that's right. It goes back almost a decade, and
it's something that as researchers and as policy analysts we've
been we've worked on for a long time. We've done
books and policy papers and events and op eds around it.
But it really goes back, I think to the mayor
of New Bedford, John Mitchell, who hasn't in truth, he's
(17:12):
been there since I think around twenty twelve or so,
he hasn't had a lot of success improving the academic
achievement within the within the New Bedford public schools, and
so he has seen the vote tech schools and he
really led almost the kind of political movement in recent
years to try to begin to tinker with what I
(17:34):
think is, you know, again a nationally recognized model. But
it's mostly because a lot of the urban comprehensive high
schools have not been able to deliver the academic performance,
the low dropout rates, all of the things that these
old tech schools have earned through their hard work and
their focus in the last twenty thirty years, and so
(17:58):
he has been able to kind of drive this effort,
which is included filing complaints at the US Department of Education.
But it's really become from my point of view, it's
a manufactured crisis because these are demonstrably successful schools. The
Vokee Tech schools have delivered on virtually everything that they've
(18:20):
been asked to do and more under ed reform. They've
always done a great job at occupational education. Now they're
even doing as well or better than the comprehensive high schools.
And so you have opponents that are trying to score
political points against a group of schools that have hit
the cover off the ball. And it's pretty hard to
watch because you know, like the like so many things,
(18:41):
is sort of this weaky wheels getting the grease, and
the more the opponents complain and they bring their grievances
to the board of bed or to to Beacon Hill,
the more it seems like it's you know, reasonable, But
in fact, what they're really trying to do is create
a lottery which won't, actually, my you, address a lot
(19:04):
of the issues of diversity that they claim is a
big problem at these schools. Because the schools the book
textoos do really represent and have generally speaking represented, they're
sending communities. So they've got to manufactured this this crisis
and will will I will.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
End this segment on an ung grammatical note, which is,
if it ain't broke, don't fix it, as simple as that.
So we're going to take a break. Jamie Gass of
the Pioneer Institute is my guest. We're going to get
to phone calls. I only have one line if you
want to get in six, one, seven, nine, three, one,
ten thirty. We'll talk with Jamie until ten o'clock, and
(19:42):
then I'm going to talk about a frightening incident that
I observed yesterday morning, and I think some of you
will be able to identify with it. It includes driving
your car, if that'll give you a hint. Back on
Night Side right after this with Jamie Gass.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
We're on to Night Side with Dan Ray on w
b Z, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
My guess Jamie Gass or the Pioneer Institute.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Earlier in the eight o'clock hour, we talked with Tim Murray,
former Lieutenant governor also the head of the Chamber of
Commerce in Worcester, Massachusetts, about an effort to make acceptance
to vote tech educational schools in Massachusetts to be done
(20:28):
on a lottery basis if we can provide vote tech
education to kids in Massachusetts who are so inclined, then
we should go out of the education business and turn
it over to the private sector. Simple as that. Maybe
go back to the apprentice system.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Jamie, you're ready for some phone calls.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Absolutely, let's go.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
We got Tracy in Medway. Tracy, welcome to Nightside. You
were first this week, first this hour on Night Side
with Jamie Gass or the Pioneer Institute. Go ahead, Tracy.
What's your comment or question? Oh?
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Thanks, Dan, It's more of a comment than a question.
I'm actually a school committee member at Tri County Regional
Book Tech representing the town of Medway, one of the
towns in our eleven District school district. And you know,
I ninety one. I still work within my field to
(21:20):
this day, and my child graduated last year. And I
think the experience I want to share and Jamie might
have some comments on, is my my own child's experience,
which was K through five trying to get into a
charter school in our neighboring town of Franklin. We didn't
(21:42):
get in, and then when it came to applying to
high school Norfolk Gaggy was her first choice and she
was waitlisted within the top eight. And this is this
is testimony that I shared with the Board of ED
recently in my written statement. You know, there were folks
that I tabled over the past year at the legislative
(22:04):
level who has suggested to me that at the time
that my child was weightless at the Northwolk Gaggy, that
I probably should have filed a discriminatory complaint because my
child is an IEP student, and I felt that was
very unjust. We know the MSBA is doing wrong by
(22:24):
a lot of projects within the state who are currently
building new schools, including Tri County, and haven't increased our capacity.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Jamie quick comment on Tracy's story.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
Well, you know, and Tracy's right. I mean, both the
vote tech schools and the charter schools really have long waitless.
The vote tech schools I think have ten thousand, approximately
ten thousand students that are on weightless. I think the
charter schools are twenty thousand. So there's an enormous demand.
What that's telling us that there's an enormous devan for
these kinds of schools, you know, in terms of the
(22:57):
vote text. I mean, look, they have a higher percentage
of students with special needs than the and they're sending
districts and the and the and the state wide figures,
so they are serving and frankly, one of the things
that they have been better at than anybody in the
state is serving kids with special needs, so you know,
(23:17):
they they are particularly good at it. But look, I
agree with you, there is a there there's a huge
weight list uh for voke Tech schools, and that's that's
why the focus should be on retiring that wait list
and expanding voke Tech schools, which is a national model,
and not distracting everybody with all these you know, changes
(23:41):
in policies and kind of move the goalposts on schools
that have done a great job.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Could agree with you more.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Tracy, thank you for advocating for your daughter and also
for other kids in your school district. You sound like
a great mom and a great educational leader. I'd love
to see you run for public higher public office, and
I'm serious when I say that, and get and get
some independent thinkers, more independent thinkers at the state House,
(24:09):
because too many of them just follow the crowd.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Simple as that.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Thank you, we have we have some great supporters. I
am the legislative subcommittee chair at Tri County. Uh, m
A s C has our day on the hill tomorrow.
We will be advocating for these things for the both
tech schools. And if if anybody hasn't mentioned it already,
there is a coalition that has been formed in response
(24:35):
to what's been going on, and that's m A v
O c t e c h Coalition dot org. Uh
we we've got the support of MAVA and m A
s C. And also MATHDTV.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Okay, give us that website one more time, slowly so
everybody can copy it down.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Go ahead.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Sure it's m A v O c t E. So
it's Math Book Tech Coalition dot org.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Pretty simple, that's easy. M A v O c t
e ch Coalition dot org. Thanks Tracy, you've ever run
for public office. I'll endorse you or your opponent whichever
helps you more.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Night, have a great night. Good night. Let me go
to Brian and Attleborough.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Hey Brian, welcome you next on a nice side with
Jamie Gassot the Pioneer Institute.
Speaker 6 (25:29):
Hi Dan, how are you the Seaton Brian?
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Go right ahead?
Speaker 6 (25:32):
Your question for me, Well, I actually graduated from a
vocational high school. Good for you as a plumber. I've
actually owned my own business for over twenty years now.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
How many employees do you have. I bet you've got
a few people working for you.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I do.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
I have five employees, perfect, And I actually also teach
at the vocational high school. But I graduated from I
teach plumbing. I teach plumbing and AH track night. So
I mean, and my association that I've wanted to as
a plumber. We also advocate for vocational high schools. We
(26:11):
give scholarships for kids graduating from the vocational programs every year,
you know, so they can continue their education and get
into the fields. But I see the biggest I mean,
vocational high schools have done fantastic things, and that's because
they follow very strict policies and if you don't kind
of do good grades and keep up with the stuff,
(26:33):
they'll send you back to the public school that you
came from. And I think that's what's made like New
Bedford and stuff like that. Mayor is very jealous of
the fact that they have very strict policies of who
they want into the school, because you know, we want
people who are actually going to come into the trades.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Absolutely, it's it's I mean it's look, you're working almost
against your own interest, but it's it's very expensive to
hire good tradesman for your home. All of that, and
I think it's I think I know so many friends
of mine, you know, who are tradesmen, and they're the
(27:12):
people that really make this country run. You know, when
you've got a problem with the plumbing hit your house,
if the hot water doesn't work, the electricity doesn't work,
the ac doesn't work, whatever, you know, you guys bail
us out. You have much more important than some state
rep as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
I tell my classes as you're a professional, no different
than a lawyer or a doctor. We spend absolutely we
spend hundreds of hours in classes because I teach them.
So you know, we spend five hundred and fifty hours
in classes as an apprentice, over seven thousand hours in
the field working as an apprentice to you're even qualified
to take a license test, so you know, it's you know,
(27:55):
it's a it's not an easy job to get through.
You have to there's a lot of time and effort
put into the you know, to become you know, a tradesman.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Next next time, next time someone needs a plumber, have
them call a lawyer or a doctor.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And see see see what sort of quicker.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
We all have certain Brian, we all have certain skills.
Your skills, your mechanical aptitude, which which I can't even
come close to. Okay, you might not be able to
run a talk show. Maybe you could. It's probably easier
for you to run a talk show then for me
to to do electrical or plumbing work.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
So thank you for much.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
We have talents, and you want to find these kids
when they're young and put them into these industries because
you know they can make a good living at it.
You know, college isn't for everybody.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
But absolutely nothing for guidance.
Speaker 6 (28:46):
Councils has been pushing college for forty years. Oh yeah yeah,
which is driven people away from trade schools.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I call it the academic industrial complex.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
So you know I.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
Feel yeah, yeah, you're right about that. I mean, you
know when you look at the average ageable plumber and
masses fifty five years old.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah all right, Look, I appreciate your time, Brian, thank
you for what you do.
Speaker 6 (29:07):
Both and Judge, it's a great it's a great Dan.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
You bet you anytime. Thanks Brian. Keep listening to Night's
side take very quick break. My guest is Jamie Gass
of the Pioneer Institute.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
They are a very important organization from an academic point
of view here because you have to have people who
can literally fight on Beacon Hill, and there are just
too many fights on.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Beacon Hill for to deal with.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's as simple as that. We'll be back on Nightside
right after this.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Back to the phones.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
We're going to try to get everybody in quickly here
because we're running a little late with Jamie Gass, Steven Cambridge,
Steve next on Nightside.
Speaker 7 (29:53):
Jamie, Jamie, I'm interested in knowing what the argument is
that the proponents of are making. I guess it has
to do a lot with admissions and when you mentioned lottery,
I guess it has a lot to do with probably
there are not enough black and Latino students in these schools.
(30:14):
Could you explain what the opposition is saying?
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, look, we're in a moment
here where there's an opposition to any kind of requirements
for entrance. You see this with the Boston Exam schools.
You've seen it recently, the debate over and the ballid
initia over mcass that I think is what is troubling them.
I mean, the thing from my point of view, that's
it's some of the best models that you find in
(30:41):
the in Vogue Tech and Massachusetts have been Worcester Tech
an urban school district, Springfield's, Putnam an urban school, urban
vote tech school, Greater New Bedroom votech So some of
the sort of the shining spars of the Vogue Tech
constellation have been urban reform efforts. And you know, I
(31:02):
mentioned Tim Murray, he was he provided a ton releadership.
President Obama came and visited Worcester Tech. Late Secretary of
State General Colin Powell's is it so you have two
of perhaps the most prominent African American figure of political
figures in the last thirty forty years that came and
(31:23):
recognized Massachusetts work on vokee tech schools, but also in
particular their ability to serve poor and minority kids. And
so I just don't I don't think these arguments hold
a lot of water.
Speaker 7 (31:35):
What is the argument? Is the argument a racial argument?
That's my question is that what they're saying is I.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Think that that I think that is certainly a feature
of at least that I think that's part of the
political motivations of the folks that are driving this. And again,
you if you look at the composition of the voke
Tech schools in Massachusetts, they generally have mirrored the communities
of descending districts. And you know, I think it's something
like ninety seven percent of the Volkue Tech schools when
(32:07):
this topic was brought up for the boardervand a couple
of years ago, like ninety seven percent of them made
minor adjustments to accommodate it. And here we are three
or four years later, and the opposition is still at
it with this lottery that again just seems like it
is a very poor way to make policy on a
(32:28):
group of schools that have done absolutely everything in our
national model.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Thank you very much, Thanks Steve.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
By the way, Boston Land School from the school I
graduated from, which was used to be a very highly
academically competitive school, it's now a zip code school. So
depending upon the zip code that you live in, increases
or decreases your chances to participate. Domingo is in Boston, Domingo.
Welcome next on Nice That with Jamie ga Gas A
little tight on time, Dimingo got.
Speaker 8 (32:57):
Ahead, Hey dom gut, thanks or even bringing up a conversation.
You know, I'm a vote tech grad from Madison Park
class in ninety six, and you know, it's great to
hear a lot of these different opinions and input because
the reality is, you know, the gate the gateway to
you know, the middle classes through the.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Trades absolutely couldn't agree with you.
Speaker 8 (33:18):
Great point, students, regardless of if it's a college or
a trade school, you know, we're still promoting learning something new.
I tell a lot of the young folks that I
mentor who I encourage to go into the trades. Uh
here in Boston that regardless if it's a laboratory in
a college or a laboratory in a in a trade school,
(33:40):
then you know, in the plumbing lab or or an
electrical lab or so forks, it's still learning. So you know,
we have to encourage our kids to want to learn.
And that's a lot of the conversations that I'm having
with parents. There's no difference between either or It's still
a learning process. It's just your interest of learning, right,
So a lot of young people their interests in learning
(34:02):
are different, and we're not able to adapt to those
interests because we're too busy letting folks who you know,
hold these PhDs, uh and these different degrees, but they
don't have real life experience when it comes to what
people are looking for and the trades from help to
building to you know, waterfootration and so forth. It's a necessity.
(34:26):
So I wanted to bring in my point of view
from Boston, where we don't have an issue with the
waiting lists. Madison Park is empty, it's been empty for
a few years.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Let's get more Let's get more kids, Domingo, Let's let's
introduce more kids. Toe.
Speaker 8 (34:41):
Yeah, it's the political will of the people who are
in control, you know, Like you're saying the State House
doesn't want to add schools to different districts. Meanwhile, here
in Boston, the administration is not looking to add more
children into the classroom. Some of them got two million,
two hundred million dollars for new building. Madison got a
little to little to under twenty million from the state
(35:02):
to improve its its you know, surroundings. We're asking the
state for seven hundred million to rebuild the school so
we can compete with the other thirteen schools. We're number
fourteen out.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Of the Well, you know, there's no reason why they shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
They just raised a whole bunch of money with the
millionaire's tax, which is supposed to be dedicated to education
and transportation. That money should be there for the City
of Boston public schools if they were better run to
get that money for the kids.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Domingo, thank you for calling. Have you called my show before?
Speaker 8 (35:31):
Yes, I have. This is the same Domingo's that that
calls in all the time with the other issues face.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Oh absolutely, Dimingo.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
You're a great listener and great caller, and you make
great points. Thank you, my friend. Keep calling. Okay, thank
you much. Gonna get one more room. We're gonna go
up to the great state of Maine.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Richard.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
We only got a couple of minutes for you. You
are the last in line. You go right ahead, Richard Dan.
Speaker 9 (35:52):
I'm a graduator from the Tri County Regional that bury
first class. Good for you that ever grad graduated from
their hospitality program. The education I got in there, plus
the education I got from Boston College, has allowed me
the opportunity to not only own hotels, but to invest
(36:12):
in hotels. I think what people need to realize. And
when I hire students for like intern for the summer,
I take kids that want to learn in the trade
being electrical or plumbing. Inside my hotels, being in the
food service. My chefs are coming from Johnson and Wales
(36:33):
Cia Coloring Institute of America, and to cut out the trades.
Some people are not book smart. I was lucky and
blessed in life. I was book smart, and I wanted
a trade. And for this state to try to take
that away and make it a lottery, not everybody is
book smart and rent them at King Phillip, they tried
(36:54):
this program where they had a vocational school. They cut
it out and they're all now all going to Try
County and it became more of a college practice school.
And that's what the people need to look at. Our
politicians need to realize quit trying to, you know, fight
for their dollar and their own pride and pocket education.
Our elected officiops are paid to do a job for
(37:17):
the people, not Richard.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
You're so articulate and I'm flat out of time. Congratulations.
I got to tell you you are the epitome of
what the success that these these Volke Tech schools provide.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
I don't know if.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
You've called my show before, but I want you to
call you.
Speaker 6 (37:35):
I used to call you when I lived in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, you know what, it's closer in Maine and probably
doesn't cost as much. Only kid, don't be a stranger.
Thanks Richard.
Speaker 6 (37:44):
All right, thank you, Bodie.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Have a great night, Jamie Gass. How can folks get
in touch with the Pioneer Institute on this or other topics?
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Oh, Pioneer Institute dot org. And you can take a
look at our book we published a couple of years
ago on Vokee tech schools called Hands on Achievement Ask
Jesus National Model Book tech Schools. So I encourage people
to take a look at that. It's a great topic. Dan,
thank you so much for having us on my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Jamie, please keep in touch and let's follow this and
let's see if we can do something in the interest
of young people who need some help, simple as that.
And also help the Commonwealth of Massachusetts because we all
GotY you know, assistant deans at colleges.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Some of us have to work for a living. Thanks
so much, appreciate it, Jamie. All right. A little bad
news tonight.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
The Celtics lost to The New York Nikoboker's one O
eight to eighty five. Let's hope they can turn that
around back right after the ten oclock News at night.
So we're going to talk about a very scary situation.
I found myselfie yesterday and I'm glad I was paying attention.
I'll explain
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