December 29, 2025 • 38 mins
Bradley Jay Fills In On NightSide with Dan Rea:
Bradley spoke with veteran Boston Music Writer Jim Sullivan about their Top 5 Favorite: Punk/New Wave Bands, Hard Rock Bands, and Arena Rock Songs. What are your top favorite 5? Bradley also wanted to know how you classify bands like “Green Day” and “Blink-182” – Punk or Rock?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Nike Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's new radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Now we're talking music. As you know, the number six one, seven, two, five,
four ten. I hope you have that on your refrigerator.
Does WBZ have fridge magnets with the number on it?
They must have at some point. Anyway, we're gonna talk
about punk rock that you might think that's kind of
a niche thing. Uh maybe not. You know, they don't
(00:28):
talk about that kind of thing on talk shows. But
you gotta remember that punk rock is a baby boomer
age phenomenon. It's been around a long time. So I
I having having been a DJ for a long long time,
you know, I search for new music and I read
a lot of band bios, and the band bios describe
(00:50):
the bands and they say, this is a punk band,
or this is a post punk band, or this is
an read a rock band. And I joy debating on
debating which bands are in which category. And I know
bands don't like to be pigeonholed, so they say, but
I don't care. That's why I'm going to do it anyway,
(01:12):
because I love it. And excuse me. One of my
best topics ever was I asked you tell me what
is your favorite power ballad? And folks called a lot.
But after a while the topic kind of transformed into
(01:32):
what is the definition of a power ballad? Because they'd
say yeah, song X, and I say, no way, is
that a power ballad? Because it needs to do this
and that and this and that. Hadn't really developed a definition,
and I think it's fun. So recently I posted on
Facebook and I have some of the responses here. Please
(01:55):
in some detail to find the the parts of us,
what you need to be to be punk and what
you can't be to be punk. Got a lot of responses,
and I've also invited an expert here, Jim Sullivan, former
Boston Globe writer and author of Backstation Beyond, with lots
(02:15):
of stories about his interviews, and they're great, great stories.
It's a cool book. You should definitely check it out
if you're a music person, especially somebody who probably went
to the same gigs Jim. Did you know if you're
of our age, you probably went and you might see
some photos of the actual gigs you went to. So Jim,
(02:38):
thanks for being with us.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Happy to be here, brother, all right, as you.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Know, I've had a was it something in mi cra
a bug in my crawl. I'm thinking I'm mixing my
metaphors here, but that's all right. Something stuck in my
craw because I see these lists of punk rock bands,
the Rolling Stone Top one hundred, and this and that
Top one hundred, and I see bands like Blink one
(03:05):
eighty two in these punk lists, and I said, that
cannot be. I will not live in a world where
that will stand. And then there's one kind of right
on the cusp that causes a lot of debate, and
that is Green Day. Green Day, to me, is not
a punk band. And I have taken some time, as
(03:30):
I believe you have to to come up with a
punk a definition of punk rock to see what bands
might be labeled as punk it really aren't. And of
course I want to ask all you in the audience
any your favorite punk band, favorite punk album, favorite punk show.
It's a punk hour and it encompasses a lot more
(03:55):
bands that you're familiar with. Then you might realize, like
many will include Billy Idol in there at least for
a while. And of course y'all Low White Wedding, now
is he punk? Then that's a debate. So we can
have that debate, Jim, do you want to go first
and how you define punk before we get into mine.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Sure, I think it can be a lot of things,
and there's no real wrong answer here, I don't think.
But the first thing I'd.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Start with is sort of an aesthetic that.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Begins with maybe a outside the system DIY sort of mentality.
And I'm talking about the punk, flash, new wave, whatever
you want to term it, that kind of got rolling
in the mid to late seventies, both in New York,
in London, also in Boston to a large extent, And
(04:48):
initially I think we're thinking in terms of, you know,
three chords, stripped down, lots of fury, lots of aggressions,
maybe not a lot of finesse, didn't matter. It was
music that was kicking against the arena rock, the hard
rock if you will, of the day. And so that's
how it sort of formed, I think in my head
(05:10):
and I think in real life. But within the punk
genre or the category, there's so many subgenres as well,
and the idea that say Talking Heads and Ramones both
considered to be under that punk rubric, well, very very
different bands but appealing in many ways to a similar audience.
So I'll start with that proudly. How's that sound?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
That's good. I'm kind of a purist, and the reason
is that I just don't feel like like Green Day
should be in any category. The clashes in they just don't.
It's not right. Or the sex pistols, or these people
that live this actual punk lifestyle in New York City
or Orange County or wherever, they just don't get to
(05:54):
be in that category. And I'll give you, I'll give
you my definitions. And then, folks, what you could do
is give us a shout with the band, the band
you love, you think it's a punk band, or maybe
you're wondering Bill the idol, and say it's your favorite
punk song or favorite punk band, and let us kind
(06:15):
of talk about whether we think it's a punk band,
and maybe you want to defend it. Now, mine short songs.
Gotta have short songs. Three minutes of truth. The reason,
the reason for the season, the reason for punk really
was to destroy pro a rock big inflated a gazillion
(06:36):
that's hours of studio time, needed a lot of money,
needed to be really good at your instrument. What kind
of virtuosity was? Exclusion? Was an exclusion? It excluded people
from that method of expression. They just couldn't get a foothold,
so they didn't play very well. And to fight the fight,
(06:58):
the songs were short, three minutes of truth. I gotta
have short songs. And for one on one level, Green
Day is eliminated right there because they have one song
that's eleven minutes and forty seven seconds long. So you're
for me, Green Days already eliminated somebody that you mentioned
(07:19):
fury needed to be some fury.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
In there, and there often was.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I agree, and I just see I see Green Days
and Incubis, okay, increbist doesn't have any fury. And so
when I see that kind of thing on the list,
I wanted off the list. Go ahead. You started to
say something.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Yeah, I mean, just briefly to what you're talking about
with Green Day, I mean I would say second third
generation punk inspired, and then onto other things. I guess
the one thing I wanted to mention just at the
beginning sort of. I was talking to the classes late
and Joe Strummer back in nineteen seventy nine when they
first played the area Cambridge was then the Harvard Square Theater,
(08:08):
and I was asking him about it, and this is
a direct quote. He said, well, at least the young
people are playing rock and roll now. In nineteen seventy six,
they weren't because they couldn't see how they could, because
all the groups were just too big. How can you
be like yes and have a secret ambition to be
a rock and roller? I think forget it. I'll just
go back to my cleaning shop. Now people in England
(08:29):
realize that anybody can be a star and that goes
without exception, and that's a vital thing in rock and roll.
The beginners have got to realize they can be stars,
otherwise they ain't gonna bother with it.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
That's right. Patty in Dorchester's Next and Nothing on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Patty in Dorchester, I'm going to get to you after this.
Leggs McNeil. Leggs McNeil is actually on the phone. A
big deal in the world of punk. He is an
American journalist and he's done all kinds of books and
films as well. He's co author of Please Kill Me,
The Uncensored Oral History of Punk. It's been published in
(09:14):
twelve languages. And so you don't that doesn't happen unless
it's big, and we are quite happy to have Legs
on with us. I know you're not into categorizing bands,
but at some point during a brief conversation here, it'd
be great if you could give me a sense of
what the scene was like when you were coming up
(09:35):
in the time during which the time of which you
wrote Please Kill Me, The Uncensored Oral History. But also
you have a memoir that you can talk about, and
you can take any of those in the order you like.
Thanks for being with us, Legs.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
McNeil, Well, thanks for having me. What's your name, Bradley
J and B.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Well, it's actually my last name, and Jim Sullivan is
Jim Sullivan is with us as well. He's a music writer.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Well, hi, Jim, how are you they?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Legs?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Very good man.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes, So tell us about the little we you know,
we I was not there. We need you to tell
us what it was really like, Legs.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
It was a lot of fun. You got to drink
and take take lots of drugs and have lots of sex.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I see, well, you did a book about it, and
I can't imagine that was all that was in the books.
There must be more can you give us an idea of.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Not really the world of punk. There was a bunch
of outsiders who came to New York City, and New
York City was really abandoned. It was at the end
of White flight in nineteen seventy five, when most of
the white people had moved out of New York City
and left. It was basically deserted and left minorities there
(11:00):
and there was burned out buildings on the Lower East Side.
I mean, no one wanted to you know, Ford in
nineteen seventy four had just declared New York City bankrupt,
and you know, everyone was like, oh, it's filled with crime.
You don't want to move to New York And I
was like, yes, I do. I want to go and
you know, be where the action is right and that
(11:22):
Kevin Renstown.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Those squads were. You know, you could afford to live
in New York at the.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Time, Yeah, two hundred dollars a month.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Where did you live? What area did you live in?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Well, we we lived at the Punk Dump or the
Punk Magazine office, which was on thirtieth Street and tenth Avenue,
which was the entrance which was right at the entrance
to the Lincoln Tunnel and every afternoon we'd see transvestite
hookers that would I guess they're the guys in the
(11:57):
traffic waiting to go on to the UH Lincoln Tunnel.
Would hire them for them.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
We only have a limited time. Can we stick to
the music?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
The music was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
You'd go out every night. What bands would you see?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
There were Moons, the Talking Heads, the Dead Boys, the Dictators,
Patty Smith Television, and then there were a lot of
other bands that you know, like the Fast and the Miamis,
and there were tons and tons of bands. Because of course,
no one but MAXs and CBGB's allowed you to play
(12:37):
original music. And before that it was all stadium rock.
So basically you'd go to a stadium and these you'd
see these tiny, ant like people and they'd be like
deep purple and you know, stuff like that, and you
couldn't even see them on stage.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
The audience was much more engaged in. You know, you
were part of the show. If you were in a
small club and it was the pistols or it was
Ramones in front of you, it was much more you
you were part of the whole thing. You mentioned you write,
have written, or are writing a memoir. Can you talk
about that a little.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
It's called resident Punk. It's about my life as being
kind of a teenage alcoholic runaway truant who came to
New York City and found CBGB's and joined the party.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
No, well, you you were a journalist right away. You
looked up with a couple of buddies and decided you
wanted to make a living at writing. Isn't that correct?
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Yes, but very reluctantly. I John Holmstrom had hired me
in high school. He was doing a comic strip in
Scholastic magazine called Joe, which was kind of a pre
teen my weekly reader for for for junior high school kids.
(14:02):
And so I was writing for that, making one hundred
and fifty dollars every time I wrote one.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That's a lot in nineteen what seventy five dollars.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Or something like that. That was seventy three seventy four. Yeah,
that was a lot of cigarettes and a lot of beer. Yes,
of course, did you.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
You must have since you went all went to all
these clubs, you must have become friends with some of
these bands and some of these artists.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Oh yeah, I was best I was best friends with
Joey Ramone or very very early on. Yeah, I was
friends with Patti Smith. I was friends with everybody. You know.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Did you hang it to Chelsea which has since been redone?
You must have.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
No, I didn't hang out just Chelsea too much. We
didn't have a shower in the punk dump. So I
would always go to some good looking girl and say, hey,
do you mind if I take a shower in your house?
And they'd always say yes, it was great.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Did you have you done your memoir yet? Is it
out yet?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yes? No, it's going to be out September twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I was looking all over for it and I didn't
see it, so I thought that must be the case. Jim,
I got a couple of minutes before the break you
want to jump in there.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Well, I think Legg's got it right in terms of
the scene itself. I mean I was in Boston, so
I experienced that sort of Boston being kind of like
a little brother to what New York was. And of
course the bands that played CBS, you know, the Cramps,
the television, blondie talking heads, you know, Ramon to name them,
all came to Boston as well. And I mean the
(15:39):
East Coast. You know, if you want to say Boston,
Rhode Island, Provenance, and New York.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
I mean it was really where it was at and where.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Like like I said, I mean, you needed bands that
played original material, and these guys did, and there was
just this burst of creativity that went in many directions,
like I was kind of saying earlier on today, but
just under under the rubric because there was no one,
you know, I mean, there was no good word for it,
I suppose, and then punk got coined like Steed. I
(16:09):
forget who coined it was. Do you know who actually
did coin the term?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
That suck?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Why?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I did when when we started the magazine, But other
people had used it, like Billy Alman and Money Kay
and Dave Marsh had all used it before, and it
hadn't been It had been kind of a very specific
you know, Alice Cooper was over here, and you know,
(16:36):
it wasn't a unified thing until we started Punk Magazine,
which we started and seventy five and the first issue
came out January first, nineteen seventy six, so that kind
of named the movement.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I have a quick question. No, no, Jim, you go ahead,
I know, just real quickly.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
I was just gonna compliment legs. Punk Magazine was one
of the greatest ever, very short, with I know, most
of three years, maybe before I don't know, but it
was so good. I was one of the very few
subscribers in Maine, I believe, oh really really yeah, yeah,
because I was there before I only won I think
(17:16):
maybe before I got to Boston. I subscribed to Punk
and it was just so good. I mean, I remember
the cover with Lou read the cartoon Lou Reid waring
out at us, the Adventures with Joey Ramone and Debbie
Harry serialized inside of it. Great, great magazine, so confluence
in retrospect, I get.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
When can I Where can I get the memoir when
it comes out? Because I definitely want.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
To get it everywhere, I guess everywhere.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
So it is it better for you if people buy
in a store or is Amazon fan? You don't care.
I don't care, all right, some people do. Peter Wolf care.
You don't care.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Really well, Publishing has become such a weird thing these days.
You know, that's not like it was, you know, I mean,
magazines don't even exist anymore, you.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Know, appreciate the time we got a break. Now this
is the Legs McNeil, co author Please Kill Me, The
Unsansored Oral History of Punk. Really appreciate the time, brother,
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Is that it?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Now we're gonna break and we'll go to pat Patty
in Dorchester after this.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
On w b Z, You're on night Side with Dan
Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Bradley Jay in for Dan talking about punk rock with
Jim Sullivan, Boston, former Boston Globe Rider and author of
a book, Backstation Beyond, which is worth totally worth getting.
He was on to talk about it some time ago.
But he's got some great stories. He's they gonna tell you, Jim,
it's kind of fun to be with some you know,
(18:58):
speaking with you because we've been together through through the
ages when it comes to rock and seeing seeing shows
in Boston and being kind of in the media in Boston.
I love that there's that continuity here. You ready to
take a call from Patty and Dorchester?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Go for it, all right?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Patty in uh Dot, what's going on? Hi?
Speaker 6 (19:22):
I was listening to you guys for a while now,
and I'm thinking maybe I'm I'm might be a little
bit off in my genre. I love punk, I love
you know, Ramones and the clash and the sexpiscles. But
in Boston at leads to my experience. I was really
young when punk really started becoming big, and the only
(19:44):
real punk stations you could hear was I think E
RS of Emerson maybe, or you.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Can do that on college stations.
Speaker 7 (19:51):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 6 (19:54):
But the thing is, I think I'm leaning towards more
new ways because I'm thinking, you know, like Devo in
the cars and okay, talk, let's.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Talk about Divo for a minute. Okay, Jim, I almost
even though it's I almost have to put them in
a punk it's tough for me. What do you think?
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Oh, now, well, they started way before punk when they
were at Kent State in the early seventies, there was
no such thing as punk, and they kind of grew
into that category, if you will. And then, of course
new wave, especially when with it became popular, MTV took off,
and Indivo was such a visual band that that gave
(20:36):
it well I mean, credibility, yes, but also visibility really
and they became i suppose controversial because of their their image.
People who are not in the punk mindset looking at
them wearing their flower pot heads and there their nuclear
protective suits, going what the heck is this? And I
(20:59):
mean they had a lot of jokes, a lot of
in jokes, and a lot of jokes that were pretty
hard edged, and that was, you know, definitely part of
a component of what the punk rock sensibility was.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
We actually had Mark Mothersbaugh on here fairly recently and
we all, well, I'm sure you did, I did, and
maybe you did, Patty see the documentary on Devo. One
thing that was surprising to me is they they really
wanted to talk to let the country in the world
know that things were going south, that we were de evolving.
(21:32):
But they they their music was so punishing, nobody's going
to listen to it in the beginning, and they were shocked.
They didn't seem to understand why, you know, how why
is it? People liked Whip It, but they didn't like
the piercing, screeching, cacophony of random sounds that we were
doing before they were. And I felt like Mark Mothersbaugh
(21:53):
always had a chip on his shoulder because people just
didn't get it and they didn't like us until we
did Whip It, which had out to do with what
we initially wanted.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Was a straight Cat. I always feel like they were
they were they more punk on the monoray the straight Cats, Oh,
straight Cats, Jim not punk?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Well I don't know, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
Again rockabilly, that's right. See I always forget about that
one too. Okay, okay, yeah, but yeah, I think I mean,
at least you guys probably know a lot more about
this than I do. Commercially successful punk bands were not
huge in Boston. I mean, well, there wasn't. Actually, there
(22:41):
weren't a lot of huge, commercially successful punk band except
with me.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
For me to be punk, the whole esthetic is we're
not going to be commercially successful, and there has to
be some degree of self destruction, both professionally and personally.
But I have a purest view.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Go ahead, well, let me jump in here, because I've
got a very good visual radio as tough with visuals,
I know. But I wrote this for.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
An in an introduction to Michael Greco's photo book Punk
New Wave, just.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
To paragraph here.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
What was it like visually? Well, it was Steve Baters
of the Dead Boys, cutting his bare chest like Iggy
Pop and sticking his head inside the kick trum. It
was Iggy taking Here's the little eggy out of his
pants to do a dance on stage. It was the
Cramps like Interior doing the same as well as punching
out a stage crasher who in all fairness had been
(23:43):
warned by Lucks not to do that anymore. And it
was Giddy Haynes of the Bottle Surfers overturning a crash
symbol at the channel, spraying lighter fluid on it, sending
flames to the roof of the club in frankly and
dangering fifteen hundred people, which brings me.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
To my next My next criterion criterion is there has
to be a little bit of You have to be
a little bit afraid in the audience. You know that
if you get if you were in the sex Pistols audience,
in the audience, you know you could get spit off.
It was it was not where you would go to
be comfortable. You had to be a little bit afraid.
(24:19):
And you mentioned the cars, I wouldn't. I would not
put them in punk because for a bunch of reasons.
Speaker 6 (24:26):
I really wouldn't though, because I feel like only the
sex Pistols, and again like the butthole Surfers and even
the dead Kennedy. Yeah, those guys are pumped.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yes you whoops, thank you. I thought you had done there, Patty.
That was a good, good call. Now we go to
Ned and Maine.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Ned, You're on w b Z with Jim Sullivan and
Bradley j Let me.
Speaker 7 (24:56):
All right, thanks for taking my call. A few bands
mentioned were around long before punk was even popular. Debo
was talked about. An American band, per Ubu was one
that you know, punk rock came along and brought.
Speaker 8 (25:10):
These bands out of the shadows English bands like Cabaret
Voltaire and Troby Gersel. But what I really wanted Jim
to comment on are some of the post punk bands
that came out. These bands were influenced by the first
wave of punk, but you know, took influences everywhere from
American psychedelia to German electronica and named. Some name of
(25:35):
bands come to mind like Wire, Enjoy Division Section twenty five.
For me, were some of the most exciting music that
came out of the whole punk rock movement.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I heard someone saying then I late Jim answer that
they found Public Image Limited would featured John Lyden, Johnny
Rotten far more exciting and interesting than the sex speciles
and I myself agree with that. So can you add
a dress Ned's statement?
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Jim, Yeah, I mean I think he's right.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Certainly, the post punk era was a great era. I mean,
in some ways, punk itself, well he did it die,
not exactly, but he kind of left the stage a
little bit, and the post punk bands took it over
the once he mentioned very much so, and you know,
I think there was probably more musicianship. There was also
(26:26):
more range, I suppose would be a good way to
put it, and also more the freedom to be to
run the gamut of emotions a little more so, and
for instance, enjoyed a vision. There was the despair, there
was the depression as well as the anger that was
there as well. But it was a form of music
(26:48):
that it encompassed more, I guess is the best way
to put it. Both more chords, more ideas, but very
much rooted in the punk aesthetic as well. And without
punk kicking down those doors, those bands wouldn't have existed
or had an audience. And I mean I remember it
talking to Stuart Cope with the Police back in seventy nine,
(27:11):
and I was in kind of a feisty movement. I
was sort of going, ah, you guys, you know not
a punk band, and he said no, no, we're not.
And he said, this isn't the quote. What happened to
the music scene in England? He said, the punks kicked
down the doors of the music business establishment. They broke
through the rigid system that blocked out any new music.
(27:31):
Punk has not failed in America or in England. And
to say punk is dead, no, it's coming to America.
There's so many good groups in England. It will make
your head spin. And it's happening because the punk's kicked
down those doors.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
I'd like to address up what you said about post
punk or the post punk word. One of the reasons
that I don't feel Green Day or Inky was anyone
are actually punk like that is because of the phrase
post punk. That means punk was done when post punk came.
It's post war means the war is over. Post punk
(28:07):
means punk is over. So for me the purist, it
had to happen during that time period. Otherwise it's something else,
a punk tribute, you know, pop punk, something. But that
the fact that the word post punk exists adds fuel
to my fire that punk was of a specific time. Thanks, ned,
(28:33):
that was a good one. Appreciate.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Okay, thanks, that was brought You're right.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
I mean it was born of a specific time, and
it kind of had its run, I suppose. But you've
got to realize too, it had different iterations in different generations.
The Anti Nowarth League, for instance, in the early mid eighties,
they came along as a definite punk band in the
midst of new waves slash post punk, and it was like,
you know, we're really kind of a throwback, very much
(29:01):
true to what the punk rock, initial punk rock ethos was,
and you know, then you get into your green day,
as you said, and other bands like the Offspring Who
or I Just like that who were obviously inspired by it,
but they were too young to be punk back the
day they were kids. They were in the diapers. I
remember talking to the guys in Rancid and when I
(29:22):
told them I'd seen the clash, it was like, what
told me? More, It's like, because you know, this is
something that they knew sort of by proxy, they'd heard
on the radio, or they'd heard their friends talk.
Speaker 5 (29:32):
About it, whatever, and they wanted to do their own.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Version of them. And so I think that in that sense,
punk lived then is now. But in terms of the
initial wave, you know, we're talking about something in this
mid to late seventies.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
One finite definition might be that if Legs McNeil didn't
see them, they're not punk, because he probably saw every
real punk band during the real punk time. And I
mean that's one way to define it. By the way,
thanks to Legs for calling in again. That book is
Please Kill Me, The uncerdent Oral History of Punk, and
(30:09):
he's got a memoir coming out soon. We'll get the
Patricia Medway and More with Jim Sullivan on WBZ WBZ
Bradley Jay in for Dan Ray on Night Sideway with
Jim Sullivan, music writer having some fun talking about punk
and after the call from PATRISA Medway, Jim, let's talk
(30:33):
a little bit about Boston punk because a lot of
these bands are back together and you can see them.
They they do either one off or they're gigging. So anyway,
patrese In Medway say hello to Jim Sullivan on WBZ.
Paterse In Medway.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Then with Sun is a sceno punk rock?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Okay, okay, okay, there's a very declarative, concise call right there.
I wonder which bands he likes. But I guess we'll
never know that, so, you know, I h as I mentioned.
(31:16):
That's why I say, you know. I did post a
question on Facebook a couple of days ago. I got
some responses from people like Richie Parson's Richie Parson's Punk Guy,
un Natural Acts, I think Future Dad's Grammys and he
said the following, and I thank you for this response.
It was thoughtful, unlike others who just kind of said
it's an attitude or something like that. I mean, Frank
(31:40):
Zappa had an attitude, but he does not really qualify.
Richie says punk was about attitude and expressing that attitude
through music, art passion. For someone it was a political
and class was about political and class as well. For me,
it was about the energy of the the people, the lifestyle.
(32:01):
I was exposed to, the humor and fun. I could
incorporate it into my version of punk. So there's a
you know, a Boston guy. And of course you were
around for all those shows, Jim, who did you see?
What names pop up? Any memories involved with Boston punk?
And were there any Boston punk rockers in the backstage
(32:22):
in your book? Backstage?
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Well, yeah, well mission Obama is in there. Certainly the
cars are in there again splitting hairs here at punk
new Wave, But actually the other three were no not
Jay Coolspan, Aerosmith, and the Pixies, who would be considered
I suppose a post punk band forming when they did.
(32:45):
But yeah, I mean it was a very fertile period
for Boston rock and roll, for punk rock in the
like I said, I get here in wait seventy eight
and jumped right in and it was literally you could
be out five six it's a week if you have
the money and the time and could stand in the
daylight the late night hours it took. You could see
(33:08):
great stuff all over the place, and that would be
from local bands and from national bands coming in and
just a very magical time. And of course, like anything,
you sort of when you're in the midst of that,
you go, this is so great, this is gonna be,
what a great lifetime, this is going to be in
the kind of shades and things shift. But I got
to say there was a period there where it was
(33:30):
just really special.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
You know, there are venues people are they correctly whine
about that the venues are gone away, but there's still
there some out there and if you want to see
it like a reunion of eighties Boston punk band, they
do exist. I have a friend Paul. He runs and
(33:54):
I wear I wear still a called Spectacle, and his
band is called Spectacle, and he's a quins punk and
he hung around with all those other Quincy punks and
he still gigs. He was at the Midway Cafe the
other day and I went and I just thought that
was the most wonderful thing. And they're out there. It
wouldn't surprise me if Richie Parson's still gigs.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
I think Richie has or had at least all doesn't dance,
and I'm sure he is.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I mean, that's just his absolute life. Let's see. Here's
another definition, and this comes from Mara Dolan, whom whom
who is I believe was a student of a dean coin.
She's probably a lawyer now because he is the dean
of a law school. And she was there too, punk
(34:42):
his bear bones, no money, no training, just an unstoppable
determination to make music and be heard. And I had
in there. There was a certain like Legs McNeil mentioned,
poor and desperate factor for me, and as I mentioned,
a little bit threatening to the audience short songs. And
(35:03):
again just and I think you agreed that the mere
fact that there is a thing called post punk means
it had to come from this time period, whether it
maybe it was seventy five day eighty two or something
like that. Let's go to David in San Francisco. I
helpe you on topic tonight. David. It's a brief, very
brief call.
Speaker 7 (35:25):
Hey Briley, Yeah, David here, let me ask you me
that have you ever heard of a band called Flipper?
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Of course, Derek California, Well, Flipper, big Flipper fan.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
And you know, Jim, you used Flipper as an exception
to the short song rule.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
I was talking to you and I said podcasts to
have short songs, and you said.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Well maybe not No, not exactly.
Speaker 7 (35:51):
They're a local San Francisco band. And Chris n was
Selwick who was a bass player in Nirvana when for
Nevadava Coupy he joined the Flipper.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
That's a good point connection there, So I'm going to
let you go a good good point, David.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
Go ahead, Jay, Yeah, And Flipper was a very important
man for Nirvana, and they're sort of their building one
of their building blocks certainly, And badly. What you were
talking about. The long song thing, I mean, Flipper was
came out during the hardcore punk era early eighties, and that.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
They were an anomaly in that grouping, if you will, because.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
They favored very very.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Slow plotting songs and sometimes very long songs. One of
them I remember very well. I saw it at the
Channel Club. It hadn't been recorded yet, so.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
It was new to me.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
The only words in the song were if I can't
be drunk, I don't want to be alive, and it ground,
it ground on and on and on for about nine
ten eleven minutus whatever it was. And the thing what's
so great about the song is that I'm not I'm
still to this day, I'm not sure whether it was
just pure truth or ironic. And uh, you know, given
(37:09):
the fate of one of the band members, Will Shatter,
who overdosed and died, I don't know. Maybe it was
just that was the reality of the songwriter. But but
it's a great song in it it's very hooky. Even
though it goes on forever, you just anticipated coming around again,
and you know, it was in a weird way because
(37:30):
of its length, because of its tempo. It really stuck
out and that's one of the things that made Flipper
such a great band. And they have existed, you know,
off and on through the two thousands.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Up.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
It's actually the hour is over, and I really, oh
my goodness, I know it goes fast, right. I really
appreciate it. Being with us a huge help. Thanks for
thanks for being with me. Appreciate it. Thank you, Breby
Jim Well, that was fun. Next hour is open Lines,
so if you didn't get in there, you certainly can.
I want to talk about the clash a little bit,
but I have other stuff to talk about. I have
(38:05):
some stories to share. Open Lines next on WBZ.
It's Nike Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's new radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Now we're talking music. As you know, the number six one, seven, two, five,
four ten. I hope you have that on your refrigerator.
Does WBZ have fridge magnets with the number on it?
They must have at some point. Anyway, we're gonna talk
about punk rock that you might think that's kind of
a niche thing. Uh maybe not. You know, they don't
(00:28):
talk about that kind of thing on talk shows. But
you gotta remember that punk rock is a baby boomer
age phenomenon. It's been around a long time. So I
I having having been a DJ for a long long time,
you know, I search for new music and I read
a lot of band bios, and the band bios describe
(00:50):
the bands and they say, this is a punk band,
or this is a post punk band, or this is
an read a rock band. And I joy debating on
debating which bands are in which category. And I know
bands don't like to be pigeonholed, so they say, but
I don't care. That's why I'm going to do it anyway,
(01:12):
because I love it. And excuse me. One of my
best topics ever was I asked you tell me what
is your favorite power ballad? And folks called a lot.
But after a while the topic kind of transformed into
(01:32):
what is the definition of a power ballad? Because they'd
say yeah, song X, and I say, no way, is
that a power ballad? Because it needs to do this
and that and this and that. Hadn't really developed a definition,
and I think it's fun. So recently I posted on
Facebook and I have some of the responses here. Please
(01:55):
in some detail to find the the parts of us,
what you need to be to be punk and what
you can't be to be punk. Got a lot of responses,
and I've also invited an expert here, Jim Sullivan, former
Boston Globe writer and author of Backstation Beyond, with lots
(02:15):
of stories about his interviews, and they're great, great stories.
It's a cool book. You should definitely check it out
if you're a music person, especially somebody who probably went
to the same gigs Jim. Did you know if you're
of our age, you probably went and you might see
some photos of the actual gigs you went to. So Jim,
(02:38):
thanks for being with us.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Happy to be here, brother, all right, as you.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Know, I've had a was it something in mi cra
a bug in my crawl. I'm thinking I'm mixing my
metaphors here, but that's all right. Something stuck in my
craw because I see these lists of punk rock bands,
the Rolling Stone Top one hundred, and this and that
Top one hundred, and I see bands like Blink one
(03:05):
eighty two in these punk lists, and I said, that
cannot be. I will not live in a world where
that will stand. And then there's one kind of right
on the cusp that causes a lot of debate, and
that is Green Day. Green Day, to me, is not
a punk band. And I have taken some time, as
(03:30):
I believe you have to to come up with a
punk a definition of punk rock to see what bands
might be labeled as punk it really aren't. And of
course I want to ask all you in the audience
any your favorite punk band, favorite punk album, favorite punk show.
It's a punk hour and it encompasses a lot more
(03:55):
bands that you're familiar with. Then you might realize, like
many will include Billy Idol in there at least for
a while. And of course y'all Low White Wedding, now
is he punk? Then that's a debate. So we can
have that debate, Jim, do you want to go first
and how you define punk before we get into mine.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Sure, I think it can be a lot of things,
and there's no real wrong answer here, I don't think.
But the first thing I'd.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Start with is sort of an aesthetic that.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Begins with maybe a outside the system DIY sort of mentality.
And I'm talking about the punk, flash, new wave, whatever
you want to term it, that kind of got rolling
in the mid to late seventies, both in New York,
in London, also in Boston to a large extent, And
(04:48):
initially I think we're thinking in terms of, you know,
three chords, stripped down, lots of fury, lots of aggressions,
maybe not a lot of finesse, didn't matter. It was
music that was kicking against the arena rock, the hard
rock if you will, of the day. And so that's
how it sort of formed, I think in my head
(05:10):
and I think in real life. But within the punk
genre or the category, there's so many subgenres as well,
and the idea that say Talking Heads and Ramones both
considered to be under that punk rubric, well, very very
different bands but appealing in many ways to a similar audience.
So I'll start with that proudly. How's that sound?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
That's good. I'm kind of a purist, and the reason
is that I just don't feel like like Green Day
should be in any category. The clashes in they just don't.
It's not right. Or the sex pistols, or these people
that live this actual punk lifestyle in New York City
or Orange County or wherever, they just don't get to
(05:54):
be in that category. And I'll give you, I'll give
you my definitions. And then, folks, what you could do
is give us a shout with the band, the band
you love, you think it's a punk band, or maybe
you're wondering Bill the idol, and say it's your favorite
punk song or favorite punk band, and let us kind
(06:15):
of talk about whether we think it's a punk band,
and maybe you want to defend it. Now, mine short songs.
Gotta have short songs. Three minutes of truth. The reason,
the reason for the season, the reason for punk really
was to destroy pro a rock big inflated a gazillion
(06:36):
that's hours of studio time, needed a lot of money,
needed to be really good at your instrument. What kind
of virtuosity was? Exclusion? Was an exclusion? It excluded people
from that method of expression. They just couldn't get a foothold,
so they didn't play very well. And to fight the fight,
(06:58):
the songs were short, three minutes of truth. I gotta
have short songs. And for one on one level, Green
Day is eliminated right there because they have one song
that's eleven minutes and forty seven seconds long. So you're
for me, Green Days already eliminated somebody that you mentioned
(07:19):
fury needed to be some fury.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
In there, and there often was.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I agree, and I just see I see Green Days
and Incubis, okay, increbist doesn't have any fury. And so
when I see that kind of thing on the list,
I wanted off the list. Go ahead. You started to
say something.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Yeah, I mean, just briefly to what you're talking about
with Green Day, I mean I would say second third
generation punk inspired, and then onto other things. I guess
the one thing I wanted to mention just at the
beginning sort of. I was talking to the classes late
and Joe Strummer back in nineteen seventy nine when they
first played the area Cambridge was then the Harvard Square Theater,
(08:08):
and I was asking him about it, and this is
a direct quote. He said, well, at least the young
people are playing rock and roll now. In nineteen seventy six,
they weren't because they couldn't see how they could, because
all the groups were just too big. How can you
be like yes and have a secret ambition to be
a rock and roller? I think forget it. I'll just
go back to my cleaning shop. Now people in England
(08:29):
realize that anybody can be a star and that goes
without exception, and that's a vital thing in rock and roll.
The beginners have got to realize they can be stars,
otherwise they ain't gonna bother with it.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
That's right. Patty in Dorchester's Next and Nothing on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Patty in Dorchester, I'm going to get to you after this.
Leggs McNeil. Leggs McNeil is actually on the phone. A
big deal in the world of punk. He is an
American journalist and he's done all kinds of books and
films as well. He's co author of Please Kill Me,
The Uncensored Oral History of Punk. It's been published in
(09:14):
twelve languages. And so you don't that doesn't happen unless
it's big, and we are quite happy to have Legs
on with us. I know you're not into categorizing bands,
but at some point during a brief conversation here, it'd
be great if you could give me a sense of
what the scene was like when you were coming up
(09:35):
in the time during which the time of which you
wrote Please Kill Me, The Uncensored Oral History. But also
you have a memoir that you can talk about, and
you can take any of those in the order you like.
Thanks for being with us, Legs.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
McNeil, Well, thanks for having me. What's your name, Bradley
J and B.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Well, it's actually my last name, and Jim Sullivan is
Jim Sullivan is with us as well. He's a music writer.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Well, hi, Jim, how are you they?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Legs?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Very good man.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yes, So tell us about the little we you know,
we I was not there. We need you to tell
us what it was really like, Legs.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
It was a lot of fun. You got to drink
and take take lots of drugs and have lots of sex.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I see, well, you did a book about it, and
I can't imagine that was all that was in the books.
There must be more can you give us an idea of.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Not really the world of punk. There was a bunch
of outsiders who came to New York City, and New
York City was really abandoned. It was at the end
of White flight in nineteen seventy five, when most of
the white people had moved out of New York City
and left. It was basically deserted and left minorities there
(11:00):
and there was burned out buildings on the Lower East Side.
I mean, no one wanted to you know, Ford in
nineteen seventy four had just declared New York City bankrupt,
and you know, everyone was like, oh, it's filled with crime.
You don't want to move to New York And I
was like, yes, I do. I want to go and
you know, be where the action is right and that
(11:22):
Kevin Renstown.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Those squads were. You know, you could afford to live
in New York at the.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Time, Yeah, two hundred dollars a month.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Where did you live? What area did you live in?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Well, we we lived at the Punk Dump or the
Punk Magazine office, which was on thirtieth Street and tenth Avenue,
which was the entrance which was right at the entrance
to the Lincoln Tunnel and every afternoon we'd see transvestite
hookers that would I guess they're the guys in the
(11:57):
traffic waiting to go on to the UH Lincoln Tunnel.
Would hire them for them.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
We only have a limited time. Can we stick to
the music?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
The music was fantastic.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
You'd go out every night. What bands would you see?
Speaker 3 (12:17):
There were Moons, the Talking Heads, the Dead Boys, the Dictators,
Patty Smith Television, and then there were a lot of
other bands that you know, like the Fast and the Miamis,
and there were tons and tons of bands. Because of course,
no one but MAXs and CBGB's allowed you to play
(12:37):
original music. And before that it was all stadium rock.
So basically you'd go to a stadium and these you'd
see these tiny, ant like people and they'd be like
deep purple and you know, stuff like that, and you
couldn't even see them on stage.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
The audience was much more engaged in. You know, you
were part of the show. If you were in a
small club and it was the pistols or it was
Ramones in front of you, it was much more you
you were part of the whole thing. You mentioned you write,
have written, or are writing a memoir. Can you talk
about that a little.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
It's called resident Punk. It's about my life as being
kind of a teenage alcoholic runaway truant who came to
New York City and found CBGB's and joined the party.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
No, well, you you were a journalist right away. You
looked up with a couple of buddies and decided you
wanted to make a living at writing. Isn't that correct?
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Yes, but very reluctantly. I John Holmstrom had hired me
in high school. He was doing a comic strip in
Scholastic magazine called Joe, which was kind of a pre
teen my weekly reader for for for junior high school kids.
(14:02):
And so I was writing for that, making one hundred
and fifty dollars every time I wrote one.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That's a lot in nineteen what seventy five dollars.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Or something like that. That was seventy three seventy four. Yeah,
that was a lot of cigarettes and a lot of beer. Yes,
of course, did you.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
You must have since you went all went to all
these clubs, you must have become friends with some of
these bands and some of these artists.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Oh yeah, I was best I was best friends with
Joey Ramone or very very early on. Yeah, I was
friends with Patti Smith. I was friends with everybody. You know.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Did you hang it to Chelsea which has since been redone?
You must have.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
No, I didn't hang out just Chelsea too much. We
didn't have a shower in the punk dump. So I
would always go to some good looking girl and say, hey,
do you mind if I take a shower in your house?
And they'd always say yes, it was great.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Did you have you done your memoir yet? Is it
out yet?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yes? No, it's going to be out September twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I was looking all over for it and I didn't
see it, so I thought that must be the case. Jim,
I got a couple of minutes before the break you
want to jump in there.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Well, I think Legg's got it right in terms of
the scene itself. I mean I was in Boston, so
I experienced that sort of Boston being kind of like
a little brother to what New York was. And of
course the bands that played CBS, you know, the Cramps,
the television, blondie talking heads, you know, Ramon to name them,
all came to Boston as well. And I mean the
(15:39):
East Coast. You know, if you want to say Boston,
Rhode Island, Provenance, and New York.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
I mean it was really where it was at and where.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Like like I said, I mean, you needed bands that
played original material, and these guys did, and there was
just this burst of creativity that went in many directions,
like I was kind of saying earlier on today, but
just under under the rubric because there was no one,
you know, I mean, there was no good word for it,
I suppose, and then punk got coined like Steed. I
(16:09):
forget who coined it was. Do you know who actually
did coin the term?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
That suck?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Why?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I did when when we started the magazine, But other
people had used it, like Billy Alman and Money Kay
and Dave Marsh had all used it before, and it
hadn't been It had been kind of a very specific
you know, Alice Cooper was over here, and you know,
(16:36):
it wasn't a unified thing until we started Punk Magazine,
which we started and seventy five and the first issue
came out January first, nineteen seventy six, so that kind
of named the movement.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I have a quick question. No, no, Jim, you go ahead,
I know, just real quickly.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
I was just gonna compliment legs. Punk Magazine was one
of the greatest ever, very short, with I know, most
of three years, maybe before I don't know, but it
was so good. I was one of the very few
subscribers in Maine, I believe, oh really really yeah, yeah,
because I was there before I only won I think
(17:16):
maybe before I got to Boston. I subscribed to Punk
and it was just so good. I mean, I remember
the cover with Lou read the cartoon Lou Reid waring
out at us, the Adventures with Joey Ramone and Debbie
Harry serialized inside of it. Great, great magazine, so confluence
in retrospect, I get.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
When can I Where can I get the memoir when
it comes out? Because I definitely want.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
To get it everywhere, I guess everywhere.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
So it is it better for you if people buy
in a store or is Amazon fan? You don't care.
I don't care, all right, some people do. Peter Wolf care.
You don't care.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Really well, Publishing has become such a weird thing these days.
You know, that's not like it was, you know, I mean,
magazines don't even exist anymore, you.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Know, appreciate the time we got a break. Now this
is the Legs McNeil, co author Please Kill Me, The
Unsansored Oral History of Punk. Really appreciate the time, brother,
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Is that it?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Now we're gonna break and we'll go to pat Patty
in Dorchester after this.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
On w b Z, You're on night Side with Dan
Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Bradley Jay in for Dan talking about punk rock with
Jim Sullivan, Boston, former Boston Globe Rider and author of
a book, Backstation Beyond, which is worth totally worth getting.
He was on to talk about it some time ago.
But he's got some great stories. He's they gonna tell you, Jim,
it's kind of fun to be with some you know,
(18:58):
speaking with you because we've been together through through the
ages when it comes to rock and seeing seeing shows
in Boston and being kind of in the media in Boston.
I love that there's that continuity here. You ready to
take a call from Patty and Dorchester?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Go for it, all right?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Patty in uh Dot, what's going on? Hi?
Speaker 6 (19:22):
I was listening to you guys for a while now,
and I'm thinking maybe I'm I'm might be a little
bit off in my genre. I love punk, I love
you know, Ramones and the clash and the sexpiscles. But
in Boston at leads to my experience. I was really
young when punk really started becoming big, and the only
(19:44):
real punk stations you could hear was I think E
RS of Emerson maybe, or you.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Can do that on college stations.
Speaker 7 (19:51):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 6 (19:54):
But the thing is, I think I'm leaning towards more
new ways because I'm thinking, you know, like Devo in
the cars and okay, talk, let's.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Talk about Divo for a minute. Okay, Jim, I almost
even though it's I almost have to put them in
a punk it's tough for me. What do you think?
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Oh, now, well, they started way before punk when they
were at Kent State in the early seventies, there was
no such thing as punk, and they kind of grew
into that category, if you will. And then, of course
new wave, especially when with it became popular, MTV took off,
and Indivo was such a visual band that that gave
(20:36):
it well I mean, credibility, yes, but also visibility really
and they became i suppose controversial because of their their image.
People who are not in the punk mindset looking at
them wearing their flower pot heads and there their nuclear
protective suits, going what the heck is this? And I
(20:59):
mean they had a lot of jokes, a lot of
in jokes, and a lot of jokes that were pretty
hard edged, and that was, you know, definitely part of
a component of what the punk rock sensibility was.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
We actually had Mark Mothersbaugh on here fairly recently and
we all, well, I'm sure you did, I did, and
maybe you did, Patty see the documentary on Devo. One
thing that was surprising to me is they they really
wanted to talk to let the country in the world
know that things were going south, that we were de evolving.
(21:32):
But they they their music was so punishing, nobody's going
to listen to it in the beginning, and they were shocked.
They didn't seem to understand why, you know, how why
is it? People liked Whip It, but they didn't like
the piercing, screeching, cacophony of random sounds that we were
doing before they were. And I felt like Mark Mothersbaugh
(21:53):
always had a chip on his shoulder because people just
didn't get it and they didn't like us until we
did Whip It, which had out to do with what
we initially wanted.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Was a straight Cat. I always feel like they were
they were they more punk on the monoray the straight Cats, Oh,
straight Cats, Jim not punk?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Well I don't know, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
Again rockabilly, that's right. See I always forget about that
one too. Okay, okay, yeah, but yeah, I think I mean,
at least you guys probably know a lot more about
this than I do. Commercially successful punk bands were not
huge in Boston. I mean, well, there wasn't. Actually, there
(22:41):
weren't a lot of huge, commercially successful punk band except
with me.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
For me to be punk, the whole esthetic is we're
not going to be commercially successful, and there has to
be some degree of self destruction, both professionally and personally.
But I have a purest view.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Go ahead, well, let me jump in here, because I've
got a very good visual radio as tough with visuals,
I know. But I wrote this for.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
An in an introduction to Michael Greco's photo book Punk
New Wave, just.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
To paragraph here.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
What was it like visually? Well, it was Steve Baters
of the Dead Boys, cutting his bare chest like Iggy
Pop and sticking his head inside the kick trum. It
was Iggy taking Here's the little eggy out of his
pants to do a dance on stage. It was the
Cramps like Interior doing the same as well as punching
out a stage crasher who in all fairness had been
(23:43):
warned by Lucks not to do that anymore. And it
was Giddy Haynes of the Bottle Surfers overturning a crash
symbol at the channel, spraying lighter fluid on it, sending
flames to the roof of the club in frankly and
dangering fifteen hundred people, which brings me.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
To my next My next criterion criterion is there has
to be a little bit of You have to be
a little bit afraid in the audience. You know that
if you get if you were in the sex Pistols audience,
in the audience, you know you could get spit off.
It was it was not where you would go to
be comfortable. You had to be a little bit afraid.
(24:19):
And you mentioned the cars, I wouldn't. I would not
put them in punk because for a bunch of reasons.
Speaker 6 (24:26):
I really wouldn't though, because I feel like only the
sex Pistols, and again like the butthole Surfers and even
the dead Kennedy. Yeah, those guys are pumped.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yes you whoops, thank you. I thought you had done there, Patty.
That was a good, good call. Now we go to
Ned and Maine.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Ned, You're on w b Z with Jim Sullivan and
Bradley j Let me.
Speaker 7 (24:56):
All right, thanks for taking my call. A few bands
mentioned were around long before punk was even popular. Debo
was talked about. An American band, per Ubu was one
that you know, punk rock came along and brought.
Speaker 8 (25:10):
These bands out of the shadows English bands like Cabaret
Voltaire and Troby Gersel. But what I really wanted Jim
to comment on are some of the post punk bands
that came out. These bands were influenced by the first
wave of punk, but you know, took influences everywhere from
American psychedelia to German electronica and named. Some name of
(25:35):
bands come to mind like Wire, Enjoy Division Section twenty five.
For me, were some of the most exciting music that
came out of the whole punk rock movement.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I heard someone saying then I late Jim answer that
they found Public Image Limited would featured John Lyden, Johnny
Rotten far more exciting and interesting than the sex speciles
and I myself agree with that. So can you add
a dress Ned's statement?
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Jim, Yeah, I mean I think he's right.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Certainly, the post punk era was a great era. I mean,
in some ways, punk itself, well he did it die,
not exactly, but he kind of left the stage a
little bit, and the post punk bands took it over
the once he mentioned very much so, and you know,
I think there was probably more musicianship. There was also
(26:26):
more range, I suppose would be a good way to
put it, and also more the freedom to be to
run the gamut of emotions a little more so, and
for instance, enjoyed a vision. There was the despair, there
was the depression as well as the anger that was
there as well. But it was a form of music
(26:48):
that it encompassed more, I guess is the best way
to put it. Both more chords, more ideas, but very
much rooted in the punk aesthetic as well. And without
punk kicking down those doors, those bands wouldn't have existed
or had an audience. And I mean I remember it
talking to Stuart Cope with the Police back in seventy nine,
(27:11):
and I was in kind of a feisty movement. I
was sort of going, ah, you guys, you know not
a punk band, and he said no, no, we're not.
And he said, this isn't the quote. What happened to
the music scene in England? He said, the punks kicked
down the doors of the music business establishment. They broke
through the rigid system that blocked out any new music.
(27:31):
Punk has not failed in America or in England. And
to say punk is dead, no, it's coming to America.
There's so many good groups in England. It will make
your head spin. And it's happening because the punk's kicked
down those doors.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
I'd like to address up what you said about post
punk or the post punk word. One of the reasons
that I don't feel Green Day or Inky was anyone
are actually punk like that is because of the phrase
post punk. That means punk was done when post punk came.
It's post war means the war is over. Post punk
(28:07):
means punk is over. So for me the purist, it
had to happen during that time period. Otherwise it's something else,
a punk tribute, you know, pop punk, something. But that
the fact that the word post punk exists adds fuel
to my fire that punk was of a specific time. Thanks, ned,
(28:33):
that was a good one. Appreciate.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Okay, thanks, that was brought You're right.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
I mean it was born of a specific time, and
it kind of had its run, I suppose. But you've
got to realize too, it had different iterations in different generations.
The Anti Nowarth League, for instance, in the early mid eighties,
they came along as a definite punk band in the
midst of new waves slash post punk, and it was like,
you know, we're really kind of a throwback, very much
(29:01):
true to what the punk rock, initial punk rock ethos was,
and you know, then you get into your green day,
as you said, and other bands like the Offspring Who
or I Just like that who were obviously inspired by it,
but they were too young to be punk back the
day they were kids. They were in the diapers. I
remember talking to the guys in Rancid and when I
(29:22):
told them I'd seen the clash, it was like, what
told me? More, It's like, because you know, this is
something that they knew sort of by proxy, they'd heard
on the radio, or they'd heard their friends talk.
Speaker 5 (29:32):
About it, whatever, and they wanted to do their own.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Version of them. And so I think that in that sense,
punk lived then is now. But in terms of the
initial wave, you know, we're talking about something in this
mid to late seventies.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
One finite definition might be that if Legs McNeil didn't
see them, they're not punk, because he probably saw every
real punk band during the real punk time. And I
mean that's one way to define it. By the way,
thanks to Legs for calling in again. That book is
Please Kill Me, The uncerdent Oral History of Punk, and
(30:09):
he's got a memoir coming out soon. We'll get the
Patricia Medway and More with Jim Sullivan on WBZ WBZ
Bradley Jay in for Dan Ray on Night Sideway with
Jim Sullivan, music writer having some fun talking about punk
and after the call from PATRISA Medway, Jim, let's talk
(30:33):
a little bit about Boston punk because a lot of
these bands are back together and you can see them.
They they do either one off or they're gigging. So anyway,
patrese In Medway say hello to Jim Sullivan on WBZ.
Paterse In Medway.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Then with Sun is a sceno punk rock?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Okay, okay, okay, there's a very declarative, concise call right there.
I wonder which bands he likes. But I guess we'll
never know that, so, you know, I h as I mentioned.
(31:16):
That's why I say, you know. I did post a
question on Facebook a couple of days ago. I got
some responses from people like Richie Parson's Richie Parson's Punk Guy,
un Natural Acts, I think Future Dad's Grammys and he
said the following, and I thank you for this response.
It was thoughtful, unlike others who just kind of said
it's an attitude or something like that. I mean, Frank
(31:40):
Zappa had an attitude, but he does not really qualify.
Richie says punk was about attitude and expressing that attitude
through music, art passion. For someone it was a political
and class was about political and class as well. For me,
it was about the energy of the the people, the lifestyle.
(32:01):
I was exposed to, the humor and fun. I could
incorporate it into my version of punk. So there's a
you know, a Boston guy. And of course you were
around for all those shows, Jim, who did you see?
What names pop up? Any memories involved with Boston punk?
And were there any Boston punk rockers in the backstage
(32:22):
in your book? Backstage?
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Well, yeah, well mission Obama is in there. Certainly the
cars are in there again splitting hairs here at punk
new Wave, But actually the other three were no not
Jay Coolspan, Aerosmith, and the Pixies, who would be considered
I suppose a post punk band forming when they did.
(32:45):
But yeah, I mean it was a very fertile period
for Boston rock and roll, for punk rock in the
like I said, I get here in wait seventy eight
and jumped right in and it was literally you could
be out five six it's a week if you have
the money and the time and could stand in the
daylight the late night hours it took. You could see
(33:08):
great stuff all over the place, and that would be
from local bands and from national bands coming in and
just a very magical time. And of course, like anything,
you sort of when you're in the midst of that,
you go, this is so great, this is gonna be,
what a great lifetime, this is going to be in
the kind of shades and things shift. But I got
to say there was a period there where it was
(33:30):
just really special.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
You know, there are venues people are they correctly whine
about that the venues are gone away, but there's still
there some out there and if you want to see
it like a reunion of eighties Boston punk band, they
do exist. I have a friend Paul. He runs and
(33:54):
I wear I wear still a called Spectacle, and his
band is called Spectacle, and he's a quins punk and
he hung around with all those other Quincy punks and
he still gigs. He was at the Midway Cafe the
other day and I went and I just thought that
was the most wonderful thing. And they're out there. It
wouldn't surprise me if Richie Parson's still gigs.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
I think Richie has or had at least all doesn't dance,
and I'm sure he is.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I mean, that's just his absolute life. Let's see. Here's
another definition, and this comes from Mara Dolan, whom whom
who is I believe was a student of a dean coin.
She's probably a lawyer now because he is the dean
of a law school. And she was there too, punk
(34:42):
his bear bones, no money, no training, just an unstoppable
determination to make music and be heard. And I had
in there. There was a certain like Legs McNeil mentioned,
poor and desperate factor for me, and as I mentioned,
a little bit threatening to the audience short songs. And
(35:03):
again just and I think you agreed that the mere
fact that there is a thing called post punk means
it had to come from this time period, whether it
maybe it was seventy five day eighty two or something
like that. Let's go to David in San Francisco. I
helpe you on topic tonight. David. It's a brief, very
brief call.
Speaker 7 (35:25):
Hey Briley, Yeah, David here, let me ask you me
that have you ever heard of a band called Flipper?
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Of course, Derek California, Well, Flipper, big Flipper fan.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
And you know, Jim, you used Flipper as an exception
to the short song rule.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
I was talking to you and I said podcasts to
have short songs, and you said.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Well maybe not No, not exactly.
Speaker 7 (35:51):
They're a local San Francisco band. And Chris n was
Selwick who was a bass player in Nirvana when for
Nevadava Coupy he joined the Flipper.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
That's a good point connection there, So I'm going to
let you go a good good point, David.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
Go ahead, Jay, Yeah, And Flipper was a very important
man for Nirvana, and they're sort of their building one
of their building blocks certainly, And badly. What you were
talking about. The long song thing, I mean, Flipper was
came out during the hardcore punk era early eighties, and that.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
They were an anomaly in that grouping, if you will, because.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
They favored very very.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Slow plotting songs and sometimes very long songs. One of
them I remember very well. I saw it at the
Channel Club. It hadn't been recorded yet, so.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
It was new to me.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
The only words in the song were if I can't
be drunk, I don't want to be alive, and it ground,
it ground on and on and on for about nine
ten eleven minutus whatever it was. And the thing what's
so great about the song is that I'm not I'm
still to this day, I'm not sure whether it was
just pure truth or ironic. And uh, you know, given
(37:09):
the fate of one of the band members, Will Shatter,
who overdosed and died, I don't know. Maybe it was
just that was the reality of the songwriter. But but
it's a great song in it it's very hooky. Even
though it goes on forever, you just anticipated coming around again,
and you know, it was in a weird way because
(37:30):
of its length, because of its tempo. It really stuck
out and that's one of the things that made Flipper
such a great band. And they have existed, you know,
off and on through the two thousands.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Up.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
It's actually the hour is over, and I really, oh
my goodness, I know it goes fast, right. I really
appreciate it. Being with us a huge help. Thanks for
thanks for being with me. Appreciate it. Thank you, Breby
Jim Well, that was fun. Next hour is open Lines,
so if you didn't get in there, you certainly can.
I want to talk about the clash a little bit,
but I have other stuff to talk about. I have
(38:05):
some stories to share. Open Lines next on WBZ.
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