July 17, 2025 • 40 mins
A devastating fire broke out at The Gabriel House, an assisted living facility in Fall River, last Sunday, killing now 10 people as another person has succumbed to injuries because of the fire. Was this a preventable tragedy and if so, how? Was the assisted living facility up to code? Investigators have not yet determined the cause of the fire but have said it is not considered suspicious. However, there is speculation over whether higher firefighting staffing levels would have saved more lives. This fire has shone a light on what has been a long simmering dispute over fire department staffing. Edward Kelly, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters and Lt. Jay Burns with the Fall River Fire Department joined us to discuss.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
He's night Side with Dan Ray on WBZY, Boston's new radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, I think all of us were shocked on Sunday night,
Monday when we woke up and realized that nine people
had lost their lives at the Gabriel House in Fall River.
That is an assisted living facility. I believe there were
seventy one people who were living there. That number, sadly
(00:28):
now is ten. Today another resident has passed on. We
are honored to be joined tonight by two members of
the firefighting community. Ed Kelly, a Boston guy who is
now the president of the International Association of Firefighters. Ed Kelly,
welcome back to WBZ and welcome back to Boston. Dan.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Thanks for having me and thanks for giving so much
needed attention to one of the awful tragedies that has
befallen our commonwealth.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah. Look, I know you covered the country now, you know,
as as the president of the IAFF. Ten people dying
in a blaze these days, that's not common. This is
a huge tragedy. I assume that you have been, you know,
(01:25):
as the national president, to other events like this, but
I can't think of one in our region recently of
this magnitude. I certainly think of the cold storage fire
in Worcester back in nineteen ninety nine where five firefighters
died going in and trying to make sure that no
(01:46):
homeless people were still living there. But boy, to have
ten senior residents of an assistant living facility die. Those
firefighters on Sunday faced incredible obstacles. I'm sure where you
know it, but the life of a firefighter is one
of the most dangerous occupations in this country. And I
(02:08):
think the firefighters in Fall River were extraordinary in what
they did under the circumstances, and there should be no
criticism of the firefighters who were there. Let's start out with.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
That, Okay, Yeah, I can't agree with you more. I'd
have to say, being you know, fire server for fire
service professional for the last three decades, the heroic efforts
of the combined Fall River firefighters ranks among one of
(02:43):
the most heroic efforts I think that firefighters and the
Commonwealth have ever mustered. It certainly ranks among them. We've
had other devastating fires in recent years locally, you know,
we lost several people including children been Lowll a few
years back. More recently outside of our immediate area, in
(03:07):
New York City, we had a devastating fire in the
Bronx that killed w eighteen people, and then shortly thereafter
we had a fire in Philadelphia where I think eleven
or twelve family members perished in a row house down there.
So we do have these instances where we have large
loss of life. I think what's really glaring for us
(03:31):
is and I know it's a little bit controversial to
call out what I would call mismanagement, but in Fall
River in particular, it's a fire department that has seen
dramatic cuts in the last decade. And we're talking going
from two hundred and thirty five firefighters I believe in
(03:52):
twenty fourteen down to a loll of about one hundred
and forty seven. That's a massive difference. And we had
I believe it's one time and.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Growing population. Has it not? I hope.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah. I can't speak to you. I don't want to
get over speculated. I can't speak specifically to the population
growth and Fall River, but what I can tell you is
that it's a densely populated It actually has a pretty
large land mass. If you think about Boston, it's a
forty seven square mile city. The city of Boston. The
(04:33):
city of Fall River is about forty two square miles. Now,
a lot of it is woodlands. They have some you know,
I understand there's some bodies of water that make up
some of that. But when you get into the populated
areas of Fall River, it's very densely populated. We have,
you know, a high risk of fire hazard in that city,
(04:55):
and it demands a high level of fire protection to
be able to answer that response. And notwithstanding the like
I said, I can't, I don't think in my lifetime
I have. I've been been aware of a collective effort
of that magnitude by firefighters. And it wasn't just firefighters.
(05:20):
You know, the police did a tremendous job in Fall River.
The Fall River ems did a great job. But the
Fall River firefighters, some of whom actually came back, you know,
heard it about the fire responded from off duty and
got right into the rescue effort. You know. In one
firefighter in particular, I did hear this story. He made
(05:43):
six different carried six different people out and then then
collapsed and they took him to Saint Anne's Hospital where
he in short order caught his breath again, and they
gave Marsha Juni and got him, and he ripped all
of the equipment off and ran back the fire, which
is only a block away by the way from Santan's
Hospital UH and then continued as rescue efforts. So there
(06:08):
was there's a lot of incredible heroic actions that took
place that night. I think one of the things that
one of the lessons that we have to take here,
and we're an inconvenient blanket of insurance protection the fire
department for your first city manager. You know, we're bulky,
we're expensive with this, with that, and we like life insurance.
(06:30):
We like insurance. If you don't, if you're paying your
insurance every month and you never need it, it looks
like a waste of money. But when you need it,
it better be there for you. And I know, like
one of the one of the things that we took
great exception to is that Fall River Fire Department was
operating and still to an extent does under national standards
(06:54):
for staffing for a densely populated area like that. That's
one of the things that we called attentions.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, Ed, I want to talk about that at some length.
I also, when we get back, I want to talk
with one of the firefighters who was there that night,
Lieutenant Jay Burns. Lieutenant, just one quick question before we
have to go to break here, how are you doing
personally after having been through this. Welcome to nightside and
(07:20):
thank you for what you do.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Thank you Dan, thanks for having me. I'm okay. I
think you know, firefighters are pretty resilient, but that was
as difficult to see as I've ever been to in
my twenty years, and you know, still was still working
that way through it. But you know, I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
When we get back, I want to talk about to
you about some of the problems that you folks faced.
I understand that there were a lot of portable air
conditioners in windows, which obviously is secured from the inside,
and it was almost important. Well it was nihon impossible
to get through that, but I got to take a break.
I'm with Ed Kelly, president of the International Association of
(08:00):
Firefighters by the Boston Guy nonetheless, and Lieutenant j Burns,
one of the firefighters on the scene on Sunday night
at the Gabriel House where ten lives were lost. But Jay,
how many lives were saved? Is it seventy one that actually.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
So I think there were seventy nine in the building,
or maybe it might have been seventy two, but you know,
nine at that's way ten. Today we're talking about forty
or fifty rescues, and most of them over ladders. That's
what I would call a herculean efforts. And I couldn't
be any more proud of my firefighters. You know it
(08:37):
was it was the most difficult scene I've been around
in twenty years.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
We'll describe that coming back. Gentlemen, got to take a
quick break. Please stay with us if you'd like to
call and ask a question or commend both of these
men for the careers that they have committed themselves to.
We often think about police officers, no doubt, but need
to think about firefighters and when when something happens at
(09:03):
your house and you need a firefighter or a bunch
of firefighters, they say lives and they say property, And
we also want to mention the e mts. It's uh,
you know, it's all too easy to second guests. But
we're gon. We're going to talk about staffing, which I
think is something that you can look at and say,
were there enough people on duty? Could have there been
(09:24):
more we'll get to all of that. The stats that
Ed Kelly will provide us with I think might surprise
and in some cases disappoint. Back in Nightside, coming back
right after this, you're.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
On night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
We are talking about the tragic loss of life in
Fall River on Sunday night with us Ed Kelly, president
of the International Association Firefighters, and also Lieutenant Jay Burns,
a member of the Fall River Department, was on the scene. Jay,
what would the be big obstacles that you folks faced.
Were the alarms working, did the sprinkler system work inside?
(10:08):
And was it the air conditioning units in the windows
that made it virtually impossible to get people out of
their rooms?
Speaker 4 (10:20):
All right? So our members showed up on a scene
which had heavy fire on arrival, and the chief immediately
called for all hands to be like the entire department.
He called for him because he looked around. He said, hey,
take this line, put that fire out. There was the
(10:41):
center of the building. It was the front door. That's
where the heavy fire was. But he looked around and
there was probably thirty windows on the inside of the
courtyard and he saw twenty five to thirty people hanging
out and begging for rescue. I think the biggest obstacle
that we had was the resource is the staffing level.
(11:02):
We didn't have enough firefighters to put up ladders to
perform rescue, to do refue operations like we needed to.
And I think that's the that's what's going to haunt
firefighters for the guys who showed up, probably for the
near future, but I think certainly for the rest of
their careers, is that these people were begging for help
(11:26):
and we couldn't perform the rescues that we needed to.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
What were the were the air conditioners of a particular problem.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah, on some of the windows, there were air conditioners,
and what they did was have it looked like plywood
which was screwed to some kind of windows still and
that was an obstacle on some of the windows, and
you know that that was difficult. This whole operation was
difficult because we didn't have enough people to get up
(12:00):
into the you know, the second and third well windows
to rescue them. Many times firefighters can report it to
me over the last couple of days that they heard people,
you know, they saw people screaming for help. And then
over the cost of time when they couldn't reach them,
that that same room became silent, and you know, we
(12:24):
we know what happened at that point, and that's something
that's going to sit with us.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Well, again, you could only do with what you had.
I'm going to talk to Ed about the staffing issues.
But one other question from you with the sprinkler systems
working in the inside the building, and do we have
any idea where the fire started?
Speaker 4 (12:46):
You know, you look at the front of the building
and you'll see that's where the heavy fire damage was.
Without being a fire investigator, that looks like the area
it started. I think they're very close to release seeing
that information. So I can't speak to that specifically, but
as a firefighter who's been at a part of a
(13:06):
lot of scenes, it looks like that area and so
that will be clarified, I believe very soon.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And what about as far as you know the sprinkler systems,
because that's supposed to, you know, help keep the fire
down and from the video I saw, I wasn't there.
Could you tell if there were sprinklers that were functioning inside?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:28):
And I think that's going to come out in the investigation.
That's what we got to wait for. It should certainly
be it is a sprinkler building and that should affect
what the operations were. But I think the investigation will
uncover something. You know, we'll hear from that soon.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Okay. In just the last question, you mentioned an investigation.
Do you think that it's close to being released? I mean,
this is only Thursday, but I'm just curious when we'll
start to.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Get I will tell you.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
I will tell you they're methodically going through this investigation
because of how complex it was and because of the
amount of fatality that they're doing their due diligence plus
to make sure they get everything right. So while I
think they're close, they are not going to rush that decision.
And you know, I think everybody wants an answer soon,
(14:22):
but we don't want to rush that answer. So let's get.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Let's get the correct answer, as simple as that so
are in most people's mind. Again, Lieutenant, thank you. Stay
right there. I want to go back to it and
let's talk about staffing, okay, and I'm sure you can
break it down. I read enough today how many firefighters
were on duty that night, you know, who were supposed
(14:46):
to be on duty, and how many trucks were available
to respond to the to the alarms as they came in.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Sure, so that night they had ten fire companies. Right,
So so the city of Fall River runs with ten
fire companies. Not too long ago, probably about ten years ago,
they had thirteen fire companies, but they cut three of
them over the course of time previous administrations to Maya Coogan,
he inherited that.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
And then when you say a fire company, just so
that my listeners understand, does that mean what an engine
company with four firefighters assigned represents? What should be an
engine company? And I assume that at a fire station
you might have more than one vehicle, So how many
(15:33):
fire stations are there in the fall with her?
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So a company would be to you know, a company
would be an engine company or a lot of company
for a rescue company, a heavy rescue company. Those would
be fire duty companies, operations companies.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So that would have so that what you just mentioned
would be three companies, not they don't comprise a single company.
That would be three companies.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
That would be any one of those ten firefighting companies,
some of which are engine companies which bring the draw
water from the hydrants, bring those into the building. And
suppress the fire. Then the latter companies and the heavy
rescue company which Fall River has one heavy rescue company,
(16:19):
would affect the search and rescue operations at a fire.
The national ad right, So there were ten fire companies, so.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
That means, just just to put it in laymenstream, that
means there's ten fire vehicles with firefighters associated with each
of those vehicles who are responding to the fire. That
must have been a general alarm fire I assume.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
Correct, correct, So out of those ten companies, the city
of fall River made a risk benefit analysis that two
of those engine companies, two of those fire companies would
have four firefighters on it, which is what the national
(17:04):
standard calls for.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Now. The national standard is born from n FPA standards,
which were driven by National Institute of Standards and Technology
NISTS right. NIST has studied the evolutions of fire ground
operations assigned to fire companies, be they engine or ladder
(17:27):
or rescue, and they have shown that the difference between
a three person three firefighters on a company versus four
firefighters on a company results in about a twenty five
percent not surprising the number reduction and efficiency of completing
(17:49):
the evolution or task assigned. So picture trying to run
a hose line into a building, catch a fire hydrant
and put water up. Don't run the holes into the
building and put water on it. That would be an evolution.
What they've shown is if you're trying to do that
with three firefighters, it will take you much longer to
(18:12):
get water on the fire. Similarly, when you look at
ladder company and rescue company evolutions, these are the forcible entry,
throwing ground ladders, ventilating the building, and performing rescues, it's
a similar reduction and efficiency. So case in point, they
(18:35):
study this study this by simply using a stop watch
and tasking units to perform identical tasks but with the
full complements of firefighters versus the reduced compent of firefighters
and simply put, it's just not as efficient. And where
(18:56):
time matters, Dan, as you know, time matters in a fire.
And I can tell you as a fire service professional,
had there been eight more firefighters on that fire ground,
on the response, on those fire companies, those ten fighter comers,
they're fully staffed, I am very very confident saying that
(19:18):
we would not have nine fatalities. I don't doubt that
we may still have had fatalities, but I think the
number would not have been nine that night. Now we
know it's ten, right, we would have had that reduced significantly.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So let me ask you this question ed of the
vehicles who responded, without going through the specific name, how
many firefighters if they had ten vehicles there and four
firefighters on each vehicle, they would have been forty firefighters
completing evolutions or tasks. How many firefighters forget about the
(19:54):
folks who showed up on their own from being off duty.
How many assigned were you know, in the firehouses that
night and responded to the fire if to the best of.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Your mine, there were thirty two thirty two assigned to
the fire companies.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Okay, So so that's that's that's the down eight yeah, okay,
and correct. You now have I believe reached an agreement
with a conversation with Mayor Coogan, who we did invite
in the show tonight, but we did not hear back
from him. But you've gotten him now to increase the
(20:29):
staffing from thirty two to was it thirty six?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Corrupt?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Okay? Is that every is that every shift, day.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And night corrupt?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
So the goal is to.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Get improvement, but quite a cost to get that improvement.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Corrupt correct now, you know it's Mayor Coogan fantas to
Maya Coogan inherited a lot of the staff and challenges
in the Fall River fire upon them. That being said,
you know, my our argument was very simply, had we
(21:15):
had more the national standard implemented that night, we would
have saved a lot more lives. And and the fact
of the matter is, until they up that staffing last
night at five point thirty pm, they were operating the
same way they were the night of the fire. And
my concern and the concern of the union wasn't who was.
(21:39):
It wasn't a political argument. It was the fact that
we're going to have more fires in Fall River and
we know that we have a deficit in staffing, and
if we don't address it, we can only open ourselves
up to more tragedy. And the oath that J and
I and all those firefighters that night took was to
(21:59):
protect those people. And in the Union's job in in
no short order is to live up to that old
and and to try to protect each other. And you know,
one of the things that we we often find ourselves
in a predicament where the cities or towns want to
come to us at negotiation time and tell us, hey,
(22:22):
if you want to adequately staff the city, you have
to give back in your contract or take less money. Basically,
we have to pay for it in our contract. And
that's something that you know, we're not going to stand
for it on a Fall River where you know our
firefighters and Fall River, they're not highly paid, you know,
public servants. They're hard working family people. And you know
(22:47):
we were we we know that the national we know
what these national standards are. We didn't make them up.
There were times. These are time tested, you know, statistics.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And of but also added, if you don't mind, a
lot of politicians like to refer to themselves as public servants. No,
I've always said it's the fire fighters, the police officers,
and the EMTs who truly are the public servants. Let
me do this general, I have to take a news break.
I'm five minutes late for it, but the interview is
(23:19):
so much more important. We'll hit a news break here
and we'll come back. We'll get to phone calls, and
I hope you'll be willing to take some phone calls
from some listeners. I'm sure people would like to add
a comment or two and hopefully accommodation six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty, six one seven, nine, three one ten thirty.
We often forget firefighters except in the days in the
(23:42):
wake of a nine to eleven or the wake of
a storage warehouse fire in Worcester, or now in the
wake of what happened Sunday night in Fall River, and
again the emphasis is on the people who are alive tonight,
who these firefighters rescued. I looked at some video that
some of the news stations had tonight, which are extraordinary,
(24:04):
extraordinary what these firefighters did in order to save lives.
Sad that ten people have lost their lives, but you
have to understand this is an assisted living center. The
fire hits a lot of these people have are not ambulatory.
They're on walkers or they're in wheelchairs, and it's complicated
and it's difficult, and it's dark and it's hot. We'll
(24:27):
be back on night Side six seven, six, seven, nine
three tent they we go to phone calls right after
the news at the bottom of the hour.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
All right. Let's let's go to the phones. Gentlemen. Let's
again you've You've made very compelling arguments and also have
told us Lieutenant Burns what it was like there. I
can't imagine doing the job you do. Let's go to
Rachel in Medway. Rachel, you were first tonight with the
(25:08):
presidents of the International Association Firefighters, Ed Kelly and Lieutenant
Jay Burns at the Fall River Fire Department.
Speaker 6 (25:14):
Go ahead, Rachel, Hi, Dan, Hi, j Hi Ed, Rachel,
thank you, how are you?
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Hi?
Speaker 6 (25:24):
I just wanted to make a comment and just first
say I'm so sorry about the loss of all these
people is broken. I can't even imagine what they are
going through. But secondly, I just want to say thank
you for everything that you guys do. It's a lot
(25:47):
of work, and my thoughts and prayers are with you.
I just I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Before Dan took my call.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
All right, well, thank you, Thank you very much, Rachel,
very very Rachel.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
God bless God, bless you too.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Rachel. Hope that you you were yours never are in
the situation that the firefighters found themselves in on Sunday
night in Fall River. Thank you much. Let me go
next to Rob and Cambridge. Rob, you're with Ed Kelly,
president of the International Association of Firefighters, Lieutenant Jay Burns
the Fall River Fight Apartment.
Speaker 7 (26:28):
Hey Dan, Hey, Hey, lieutenant. So my question is you
know Beacon Hill passes crazy loss. Sometimes this can Beacon
Hill step in and pass something or as a local
city or town situation and as it often happened. And
is it just big cities like Cambridge, Fall River into Bedford, Springfield,
Boston or is it smaller towns also.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
It's certainly an issue no matter way. What let me
answer your first question first, Yes, Beacon Hill has you know,
a state legislature has the capacity to set regulation our footport,
regulation in motion, pass laws that govern how you know
these you know we're then these used to be what
(27:10):
we would call rooman houses, you know back in the
old South End, low horrendous South Boston. You know, UH,
places we're familiar with. You know, the state that the
legislature has the authority and gain capacity and to to
be able to set laws that govern uh certain safety
protocols around these facilities, UH and also play a role
(27:34):
in ensuring that the communities in the Commonwealth adequately protected.
So I think that's Uh, that's certainly something that I
know that our professional firefights in Massachusetts. The state Union
Richid mckinnap president Jay serves on that board. Uh, they're
looking very closely at how we can how the state
(27:57):
can help ensure that we iradically adequately protecting the citizens.
So I think that that is a move in the
right direction. So what can the average residents or taxpayer.
Speaker 7 (28:11):
I know, we can advocate locally for more funds for
public safety and fire. You know, I live in Cambridge.
We have a great public safety, great fire department. They're
refurbishing all the fire stations now and it's not like
that in the other cities of towns. But so what
can the average resident do that urge for more funding
for firefires.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I think you need to make sure that your town
manager or you know, you live in a city, but
you know they're in the smaller towns and and you know,
we have to have the resources to meet the risk
in the jurisdiction. Right if you have special hazards, you
need special ability. You know, you need special resources to
be able to respond vis a v You can mean
a relatively small town, but if you've got a massive
(28:53):
refinery in that sound. Then the town should be ensuring
that whatever that's special hazard is is playing its role
to make sure the town has the proper resources to
be able to respond to that special hazard. And you
know that's something that I think people need to make
sure that they're elected, uh and they're appointed because a
(29:14):
lot of these tim manders are appointed. Know that fire
for section is something that you pay your taxes for
and it's something that you should have. We shouldn't have,
you know, a million dollar fire engine it pulls up
with one person on it, because that's not the fire
department coming to your health else to help you know,
that's one firefighter. One firefighter cannot perform the task needs
(29:37):
and a building.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Fire by the way, gentlemen and ed you know this
better than anyone. Are they not communities even in Massachusetts
that still rely on volunteer firefighters?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yes, And I would tell you Dan that there's a
there's a there is a place for volunteer firefighters, and
there's a place for what we call call fire departments.
There are there are that's a justifiable if provided however,
you can you have adequate volunteers that can meet the need. Uh,
(30:11):
You know. But what what we see too often is
in places where have volunteerism is down, you don't see
the numbers that they had back in the day when
you know those communities that were you know, working class
now rust belt towns type type places where they had
you know, a factory there that everyone that worked in
(30:33):
the factory were volunteer firement. If you worked the first shift,
you responded to the calls overnight. You know, if you
worked over the overnight, you respond to the calls during
the day, and it worked. That's not the society we
live in now. So as as the as that volunteerism
doesn't have the capacity to answer the need, then the
(30:54):
cities and towns have to adequately manage and ensure that
there are resources, you know, paid firefighters that can answer
that call tech the community.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I would think that in any community there can be
volunteer firefighters that can help, but there should be a
couple or three or four, or a group of five
or seven or eight who were paid full time so
that that firehouse is staffed. I lived in the community
which was primarily volunteer firefighters, and it's one of the
more affluent communities in Massachusetts and they didn't have big
(31:31):
rooming houses as you said, or retirement centers or assistant living,
whatever you want to call them. Of the all of
the stories that I read in the Globe today suggested
that many of the people who were living there it
was what they could afford. They couldn't go to the
higher end assisted living. And that's why I was asking
(31:53):
Jay earlier about whether or not the sprint was worked.
If the alarms worked, I mean, you know, all of
that will come out of the investigation, but I hope
that they can use this as an example. I want
to see my tax dollars helping communities that don't have
the resources. If Cambridge has the resources, Rob, and they're
in good shape and they comply with what Ed talked
(32:16):
about in terms of national standards, great, But if Fall
River doesn't have it, if New Bedford, Lawrence Lowell, that's
where I want my tax dollars spent. Fire comment, Rob,
we got to run to a break here at a moment.
Speaker 7 (32:29):
No, I'm going to thank you and keep us the
good work. And I accept my sympathies to the people
in the Fall River so.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Well, I'm doing nothing. I'm talking. These are the guys
that actually are they respond when the alarms come in.
So thank you, Rob, appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Thank very much, Thank you Rob.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Thank you Rob.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Gentlemen, we take one more break here, and I promise
to let you go by eleven. It's been a long week,
and I really appreciate the time. But I think we're
spreading the word to a lot of people tonight who
perhaps take their fire department for granted. I think you
got to go and talk to your city manager, as
Ed said, or to your to your mayor. If it's
a big city. How many firefighters do you have? How
(33:09):
many units there, and how do they compare to the
national standards for a community with your population?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
The magic question right there, Dan, can you meet the
national standards for response times with the adequate personnel?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Perfect? We got more calls coming in the only lines
open right now. Six. Dana and Kathy are coming up
back on this right right right after this brief message.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Night Side with Dan Ray, I'MBZ Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
All right, we're going to get everybody in here. Let
me go to Dana in Middleborough. Dana, you are next
on Nice That with Ed Kelly, the President of the
International Association of Firefighters and Lieutenant Jay Burns to the
Fall River Fire Department. Go right ahead, Dana.
Speaker 8 (33:56):
Thank you so much for talking about this. Dan. I'm
just horrified by all of it, and I just want
to know. I don't want to have to wait for
politicians to make the right decisions. So often they don't
and we've seen these things happen before. So Lieutenant Burns,
what can we do to help right now? Is there
something that ball Over needs?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Is there something that you know?
Speaker 8 (34:17):
These firefighters have seen something incredibly horristic hoerrifict and I
just want to know how we can help immediately.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
I appreciate that, and I will tell you the community
of Fall River has always supported off all firefighters. I've
had a lot of private messages, text messages, phone calls.
People want to show up to the firehouse, maybe bring
coffee and donuts. And while coffee and donuts will never
be turned away, I want to tell you I also
work for the Last Call Foundation and Memory of Michael Kennedy,
(34:47):
and we are turning donations back into the fire service
for the ability for firefighters to be able to address
some of their mental health and behavioral health issues. So
you can go to the website, you can make some donations,
but we're bringing it right back to the firefighters. And
I think that's what is going to be a long
(35:09):
term need for a firefighter. So if you can, you know,
kind of do that, I think that's going to be
a way to really help out firefighters.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
And Michael Kennedy was one of the two Boston firefighters
who died in that fire on Beacon Street a few
years ago.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Correct, thank you, Dana, we'll do that.
Speaker 8 (35:23):
Thank you for all you do.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Appreciate, thank you. Let me go next to Kathy in Braintreet. Kathy,
you were on with Ed Kelly, the president of the
Internet Association of Firefighters, the national president. How many people
do you represent and how many how many firefighters across
the country, and of course in addition to them, they're
families as well.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
We have about three hundred and sixty thousand members in
the United States and Canada.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Well, okay, a lot of people. And also we're delighted
to be joined by Lieutenant j Burns, who about I
don't know, ninety six hours ago he was in the
midst of this battle at this fire in Fall River. Kathy,
welcome your next one night side right ahead.
Speaker 9 (36:04):
Hi there, I happen to be Michael Kennedy's mother. Hey guys,
I have some suggestions I've been making for years and years.
The Fire Service needs an untouchable, dedicated revenue stream that
(36:27):
can be allocated as needed across the commonwealth because what
they're doing now does not work. And the way the
fire service budgets are cut is just it's arbitrary and
sometimes it's me spirited. And if people are injured, they
don't get the proper training, they don't have the proper equipment.
(36:51):
It's nightmarish what goes on. And if we have a
dedicated revenue stream that public pians can't touch, that is
directed towards the fire Service for them to use appropriately,
you'll see such a major difference, not only in the
(37:12):
services provided, but in the morale. What goes on in
the fire Service is it's tragic, truly is. And I
don't understand why firefighters run into a building and they're
there to save lives and that's what taxpayers dollars go toward. Now,
(37:35):
when they go into that building to put out the fire,
who's paying for that? It's the taxpayers. Why isn't it
the insurance companies. Why aren't the insurance companies, you know,
putting up a percentage of their fire insurance toward the
fire service they should be getting. I don't know. Ten fifteen.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
It's interesting, very interesting point, Kathy. A quick comment. We're
getting tied on time from you and that suggestion. I
think that's a really interesting suggestion that the first thing.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
I love you going in your suggestions out of one
hundred percent correct in everything that you said is one
hundred percent correct. There is actually a provision in the
Mass General laws that the insurance companies do have to
pay the state certain revenues, a certain amount of revenue.
(38:32):
It's it's file below where you're talking Kathy fa below.
I believe it, Yeah, that that is designed to help
assist the fire service. Now, Kathy makes a good point.
You know, when we put out a fire, we prevent
it from getting into the building next door. In all
(38:55):
of these cities around New England, that's all you know,
built on top of each other, one hundred and fifty
yars ago, we're saving it with saving the insurance companies
billions of dollars, and there's merit to the concept that
they have skin in the game and that you know,
when we look at cities like you know, Fall River
(39:15):
that's understaffed, which, by the way, most cities are understaffed.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
It's it's a big issue, and it's something that people
have to hold our electeds accountable because it's one of
those things you can you can play roulette so many times.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, you know, and one time the bullets in the chamber, Ed,
I'm slat up against at Kathy, if you will take
my number from Rob, call me and maybe we can
do something on this, uh at some point in the
next couple of weeks specifically. Okay, so please take my
number from Rob and give me a call Rob, give
Kathy my direct line. Ed Kelly, president of the I
(39:52):
A f F and Lieutenant Jay Burns simply put, thank
you both for what you do, and thank you for
your time tonight. And I hope well, well my pleasure,
my absolutely and stay safe, stay well, and I miss
sing you in Boston, but you do a great job, Nashally,
we'll talk soon, Okay, thank you, Thanks guys, have a
great night. Eleven o'clock news awaits on the other side.
(40:16):
We will go there right after the eleven o'clock News
He's night Side with Dan Ray on WBZY, Boston's new radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, I think all of us were shocked on Sunday night,
Monday when we woke up and realized that nine people
had lost their lives at the Gabriel House in Fall River.
That is an assisted living facility. I believe there were
seventy one people who were living there. That number, sadly
(00:28):
now is ten. Today another resident has passed on. We
are honored to be joined tonight by two members of
the firefighting community. Ed Kelly, a Boston guy who is
now the president of the International Association of Firefighters. Ed Kelly,
welcome back to WBZ and welcome back to Boston. Dan.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Thanks for having me and thanks for giving so much
needed attention to one of the awful tragedies that has
befallen our commonwealth.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah. Look, I know you covered the country now, you know,
as as the president of the IAFF. Ten people dying
in a blaze these days, that's not common. This is
a huge tragedy. I assume that you have been, you know,
(01:25):
as the national president, to other events like this, but
I can't think of one in our region recently of
this magnitude. I certainly think of the cold storage fire
in Worcester back in nineteen ninety nine where five firefighters
died going in and trying to make sure that no
(01:46):
homeless people were still living there. But boy, to have
ten senior residents of an assistant living facility die. Those
firefighters on Sunday faced incredible obstacles. I'm sure where you
know it, but the life of a firefighter is one
of the most dangerous occupations in this country. And I
(02:08):
think the firefighters in Fall River were extraordinary in what
they did under the circumstances, and there should be no
criticism of the firefighters who were there. Let's start out with.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
That, Okay, Yeah, I can't agree with you more. I'd
have to say, being you know, fire server for fire
service professional for the last three decades, the heroic efforts
of the combined Fall River firefighters ranks among one of
(02:43):
the most heroic efforts I think that firefighters and the
Commonwealth have ever mustered. It certainly ranks among them. We've
had other devastating fires in recent years locally, you know,
we lost several people including children been Lowll a few
years back. More recently outside of our immediate area, in
(03:07):
New York City, we had a devastating fire in the
Bronx that killed w eighteen people, and then shortly thereafter
we had a fire in Philadelphia where I think eleven
or twelve family members perished in a row house down there.
So we do have these instances where we have large
loss of life. I think what's really glaring for us
(03:31):
is and I know it's a little bit controversial to
call out what I would call mismanagement, but in Fall
River in particular, it's a fire department that has seen
dramatic cuts in the last decade. And we're talking going
from two hundred and thirty five firefighters I believe in
(03:52):
twenty fourteen down to a loll of about one hundred
and forty seven. That's a massive difference. And we had
I believe it's one time and.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Growing population. Has it not? I hope.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah. I can't speak to you. I don't want to
get over speculated. I can't speak specifically to the population
growth and Fall River, but what I can tell you is
that it's a densely populated It actually has a pretty
large land mass. If you think about Boston, it's a
forty seven square mile city. The city of Boston. The
(04:33):
city of Fall River is about forty two square miles. Now,
a lot of it is woodlands. They have some you know,
I understand there's some bodies of water that make up
some of that. But when you get into the populated
areas of Fall River, it's very densely populated. We have,
you know, a high risk of fire hazard in that city,
(04:55):
and it demands a high level of fire protection to
be able to answer that response. And notwithstanding the like
I said, I can't, I don't think in my lifetime
I have. I've been been aware of a collective effort
of that magnitude by firefighters. And it wasn't just firefighters.
(05:20):
You know, the police did a tremendous job in Fall River.
The Fall River ems did a great job. But the
Fall River firefighters, some of whom actually came back, you know,
heard it about the fire responded from off duty and
got right into the rescue effort. You know. In one
firefighter in particular, I did hear this story. He made
(05:43):
six different carried six different people out and then then
collapsed and they took him to Saint Anne's Hospital where
he in short order caught his breath again, and they
gave Marsha Juni and got him, and he ripped all
of the equipment off and ran back the fire, which
is only a block away by the way from Santan's
Hospital UH and then continued as rescue efforts. So there
(06:08):
was there's a lot of incredible heroic actions that took
place that night. I think one of the things that
one of the lessons that we have to take here,
and we're an inconvenient blanket of insurance protection the fire
department for your first city manager. You know, we're bulky,
we're expensive with this, with that, and we like life insurance.
(06:30):
We like insurance. If you don't, if you're paying your
insurance every month and you never need it, it looks
like a waste of money. But when you need it,
it better be there for you. And I know, like
one of the one of the things that we took
great exception to is that Fall River Fire Department was
operating and still to an extent does under national standards
(06:54):
for staffing for a densely populated area like that. That's
one of the things that we called attentions.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, Ed, I want to talk about that at some length.
I also, when we get back, I want to talk
with one of the firefighters who was there that night,
Lieutenant Jay Burns. Lieutenant, just one quick question before we
have to go to break here, how are you doing
personally after having been through this. Welcome to nightside and
(07:20):
thank you for what you do.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Thank you Dan, thanks for having me. I'm okay. I
think you know, firefighters are pretty resilient, but that was
as difficult to see as I've ever been to in
my twenty years, and you know, still was still working
that way through it. But you know, I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
When we get back, I want to talk about to
you about some of the problems that you folks faced.
I understand that there were a lot of portable air
conditioners in windows, which obviously is secured from the inside,
and it was almost important. Well it was nihon impossible
to get through that, but I got to take a break.
I'm with Ed Kelly, president of the International Association of
(08:00):
Firefighters by the Boston Guy nonetheless, and Lieutenant j Burns,
one of the firefighters on the scene on Sunday night
at the Gabriel House where ten lives were lost. But Jay,
how many lives were saved? Is it seventy one that actually.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
So I think there were seventy nine in the building,
or maybe it might have been seventy two, but you know,
nine at that's way ten. Today we're talking about forty
or fifty rescues, and most of them over ladders. That's
what I would call a herculean efforts. And I couldn't
be any more proud of my firefighters. You know it
(08:37):
was it was the most difficult scene I've been around
in twenty years.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
We'll describe that coming back. Gentlemen, got to take a
quick break. Please stay with us if you'd like to
call and ask a question or commend both of these
men for the careers that they have committed themselves to.
We often think about police officers, no doubt, but need
to think about firefighters and when when something happens at
(09:03):
your house and you need a firefighter or a bunch
of firefighters, they say lives and they say property, And
we also want to mention the e mts. It's uh,
you know, it's all too easy to second guests. But
we're gon. We're going to talk about staffing, which I
think is something that you can look at and say,
were there enough people on duty? Could have there been
(09:24):
more we'll get to all of that. The stats that
Ed Kelly will provide us with I think might surprise
and in some cases disappoint. Back in Nightside, coming back
right after this, you're.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
On night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
We are talking about the tragic loss of life in
Fall River on Sunday night with us Ed Kelly, president
of the International Association Firefighters, and also Lieutenant Jay Burns,
a member of the Fall River Department, was on the scene. Jay,
what would the be big obstacles that you folks faced.
Were the alarms working, did the sprinkler system work inside?
(10:08):
And was it the air conditioning units in the windows
that made it virtually impossible to get people out of
their rooms?
Speaker 4 (10:20):
All right? So our members showed up on a scene
which had heavy fire on arrival, and the chief immediately
called for all hands to be like the entire department.
He called for him because he looked around. He said, hey,
take this line, put that fire out. There was the
(10:41):
center of the building. It was the front door. That's
where the heavy fire was. But he looked around and
there was probably thirty windows on the inside of the
courtyard and he saw twenty five to thirty people hanging
out and begging for rescue. I think the biggest obstacle
that we had was the resource is the staffing level.
(11:02):
We didn't have enough firefighters to put up ladders to
perform rescue, to do refue operations like we needed to.
And I think that's the that's what's going to haunt
firefighters for the guys who showed up, probably for the
near future, but I think certainly for the rest of
their careers, is that these people were begging for help
(11:26):
and we couldn't perform the rescues that we needed to.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
What were the were the air conditioners of a particular problem.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah, on some of the windows, there were air conditioners,
and what they did was have it looked like plywood
which was screwed to some kind of windows still and
that was an obstacle on some of the windows, and
you know that that was difficult. This whole operation was
difficult because we didn't have enough people to get up
(12:00):
into the you know, the second and third well windows
to rescue them. Many times firefighters can report it to
me over the last couple of days that they heard people,
you know, they saw people screaming for help. And then
over the cost of time when they couldn't reach them,
that that same room became silent, and you know, we
(12:24):
we know what happened at that point, and that's something
that's going to sit with us.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Well, again, you could only do with what you had.
I'm going to talk to Ed about the staffing issues.
But one other question from you with the sprinkler systems
working in the inside the building, and do we have
any idea where the fire started?
Speaker 4 (12:46):
You know, you look at the front of the building
and you'll see that's where the heavy fire damage was.
Without being a fire investigator, that looks like the area
it started. I think they're very close to release seeing
that information. So I can't speak to that specifically, but
as a firefighter who's been at a part of a
(13:06):
lot of scenes, it looks like that area and so
that will be clarified, I believe very soon.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And what about as far as you know the sprinkler systems,
because that's supposed to, you know, help keep the fire
down and from the video I saw, I wasn't there.
Could you tell if there were sprinklers that were functioning inside?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:28):
And I think that's going to come out in the investigation.
That's what we got to wait for. It should certainly
be it is a sprinkler building and that should affect
what the operations were. But I think the investigation will
uncover something. You know, we'll hear from that soon.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Okay. In just the last question, you mentioned an investigation.
Do you think that it's close to being released? I mean,
this is only Thursday, but I'm just curious when we'll
start to.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Get I will tell you.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
I will tell you they're methodically going through this investigation
because of how complex it was and because of the
amount of fatality that they're doing their due diligence plus
to make sure they get everything right. So while I
think they're close, they are not going to rush that decision.
And you know, I think everybody wants an answer soon,
(14:22):
but we don't want to rush that answer. So let's get.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Let's get the correct answer, as simple as that so
are in most people's mind. Again, Lieutenant, thank you. Stay
right there. I want to go back to it and
let's talk about staffing, okay, and I'm sure you can
break it down. I read enough today how many firefighters
were on duty that night, you know, who were supposed
(14:46):
to be on duty, and how many trucks were available
to respond to the to the alarms as they came in.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Sure, so that night they had ten fire companies. Right,
So so the city of Fall River runs with ten
fire companies. Not too long ago, probably about ten years ago,
they had thirteen fire companies, but they cut three of
them over the course of time previous administrations to Maya Coogan,
he inherited that.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
And then when you say a fire company, just so
that my listeners understand, does that mean what an engine
company with four firefighters assigned represents? What should be an
engine company? And I assume that at a fire station
you might have more than one vehicle, So how many
(15:33):
fire stations are there in the fall with her?
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So a company would be to you know, a company
would be an engine company or a lot of company
for a rescue company, a heavy rescue company. Those would
be fire duty companies, operations companies.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So that would have so that what you just mentioned
would be three companies, not they don't comprise a single company.
That would be three companies.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
That would be any one of those ten firefighting companies,
some of which are engine companies which bring the draw
water from the hydrants, bring those into the building. And
suppress the fire. Then the latter companies and the heavy
rescue company which Fall River has one heavy rescue company,
(16:19):
would affect the search and rescue operations at a fire.
The national ad right, So there were ten fire companies, so.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
That means, just just to put it in laymenstream, that
means there's ten fire vehicles with firefighters associated with each
of those vehicles who are responding to the fire. That
must have been a general alarm fire I assume.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
Correct, correct, So out of those ten companies, the city
of fall River made a risk benefit analysis that two
of those engine companies, two of those fire companies would
have four firefighters on it, which is what the national
(17:04):
standard calls for.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Now. The national standard is born from n FPA standards,
which were driven by National Institute of Standards and Technology
NISTS right. NIST has studied the evolutions of fire ground
operations assigned to fire companies, be they engine or ladder
(17:27):
or rescue, and they have shown that the difference between
a three person three firefighters on a company versus four
firefighters on a company results in about a twenty five
percent not surprising the number reduction and efficiency of completing
(17:49):
the evolution or task assigned. So picture trying to run
a hose line into a building, catch a fire hydrant
and put water up. Don't run the holes into the
building and put water on it. That would be an evolution.
What they've shown is if you're trying to do that
with three firefighters, it will take you much longer to
(18:12):
get water on the fire. Similarly, when you look at
ladder company and rescue company evolutions, these are the forcible entry,
throwing ground ladders, ventilating the building, and performing rescues, it's
a similar reduction and efficiency. So case in point, they
(18:35):
study this study this by simply using a stop watch
and tasking units to perform identical tasks but with the
full complements of firefighters versus the reduced compent of firefighters
and simply put, it's just not as efficient. And where
(18:56):
time matters, Dan, as you know, time matters in a fire.
And I can tell you as a fire service professional,
had there been eight more firefighters on that fire ground,
on the response, on those fire companies, those ten fighter comers,
they're fully staffed, I am very very confident saying that
(19:18):
we would not have nine fatalities. I don't doubt that
we may still have had fatalities, but I think the
number would not have been nine that night. Now we
know it's ten, right, we would have had that reduced significantly.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So let me ask you this question ed of the
vehicles who responded, without going through the specific name, how
many firefighters if they had ten vehicles there and four
firefighters on each vehicle, they would have been forty firefighters
completing evolutions or tasks. How many firefighters forget about the
(19:54):
folks who showed up on their own from being off duty.
How many assigned were you know, in the firehouses that
night and responded to the fire if to the best of.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Your mine, there were thirty two thirty two assigned to
the fire companies.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Okay, So so that's that's that's the down eight yeah, okay,
and correct. You now have I believe reached an agreement
with a conversation with Mayor Coogan, who we did invite
in the show tonight, but we did not hear back
from him. But you've gotten him now to increase the
(20:29):
staffing from thirty two to was it thirty six?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Corrupt?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Okay? Is that every is that every shift, day.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And night corrupt?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
So the goal is to.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Get improvement, but quite a cost to get that improvement.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Corrupt correct now, you know it's Mayor Coogan fantas to
Maya Coogan inherited a lot of the staff and challenges
in the Fall River fire upon them. That being said,
you know, my our argument was very simply, had we
(21:15):
had more the national standard implemented that night, we would
have saved a lot more lives. And and the fact
of the matter is, until they up that staffing last
night at five point thirty pm, they were operating the
same way they were the night of the fire. And
my concern and the concern of the union wasn't who was.
(21:39):
It wasn't a political argument. It was the fact that
we're going to have more fires in Fall River and
we know that we have a deficit in staffing, and
if we don't address it, we can only open ourselves
up to more tragedy. And the oath that J and
I and all those firefighters that night took was to
(21:59):
protect those people. And in the Union's job in in
no short order is to live up to that old
and and to try to protect each other. And you know,
one of the things that we we often find ourselves
in a predicament where the cities or towns want to
come to us at negotiation time and tell us, hey,
(22:22):
if you want to adequately staff the city, you have
to give back in your contract or take less money. Basically,
we have to pay for it in our contract. And
that's something that you know, we're not going to stand
for it on a Fall River where you know our
firefighters and Fall River, they're not highly paid, you know,
public servants. They're hard working family people. And you know
(22:47):
we were we we know that the national we know
what these national standards are. We didn't make them up.
There were times. These are time tested, you know, statistics.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And of but also added, if you don't mind, a
lot of politicians like to refer to themselves as public servants. No,
I've always said it's the fire fighters, the police officers,
and the EMTs who truly are the public servants. Let
me do this general, I have to take a news break.
I'm five minutes late for it, but the interview is
(23:19):
so much more important. We'll hit a news break here
and we'll come back. We'll get to phone calls, and
I hope you'll be willing to take some phone calls
from some listeners. I'm sure people would like to add
a comment or two and hopefully accommodation six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty, six one seven, nine, three one ten thirty.
We often forget firefighters except in the days in the
(23:42):
wake of a nine to eleven or the wake of
a storage warehouse fire in Worcester, or now in the
wake of what happened Sunday night in Fall River, and
again the emphasis is on the people who are alive tonight,
who these firefighters rescued. I looked at some video that
some of the news stations had tonight, which are extraordinary,
(24:04):
extraordinary what these firefighters did in order to save lives.
Sad that ten people have lost their lives, but you
have to understand this is an assisted living center. The
fire hits a lot of these people have are not ambulatory.
They're on walkers or they're in wheelchairs, and it's complicated
and it's difficult, and it's dark and it's hot. We'll
(24:27):
be back on night Side six seven, six, seven, nine
three tent they we go to phone calls right after
the news at the bottom of the hour.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's
news radio.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
All right. Let's let's go to the phones. Gentlemen. Let's
again you've You've made very compelling arguments and also have
told us Lieutenant Burns what it was like there. I
can't imagine doing the job you do. Let's go to
Rachel in Medway. Rachel, you were first tonight with the
(25:08):
presidents of the International Association Firefighters, Ed Kelly and Lieutenant
Jay Burns at the Fall River Fire Department.
Speaker 6 (25:14):
Go ahead, Rachel, Hi, Dan, Hi, j Hi Ed, Rachel,
thank you, how are you?
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Hi?
Speaker 6 (25:24):
I just wanted to make a comment and just first
say I'm so sorry about the loss of all these
people is broken. I can't even imagine what they are
going through. But secondly, I just want to say thank
you for everything that you guys do. It's a lot
(25:47):
of work, and my thoughts and prayers are with you.
I just I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Before Dan took my call.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
All right, well, thank you, Thank you very much, Rachel,
very very Rachel.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
God bless God, bless you too.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Rachel. Hope that you you were yours never are in
the situation that the firefighters found themselves in on Sunday
night in Fall River. Thank you much. Let me go
next to Rob and Cambridge. Rob, you're with Ed Kelly,
president of the International Association of Firefighters, Lieutenant Jay Burns
the Fall River Fight Apartment.
Speaker 7 (26:28):
Hey Dan, Hey, Hey, lieutenant. So my question is you
know Beacon Hill passes crazy loss. Sometimes this can Beacon
Hill step in and pass something or as a local
city or town situation and as it often happened. And
is it just big cities like Cambridge, Fall River into Bedford, Springfield,
Boston or is it smaller towns also.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
It's certainly an issue no matter way. What let me
answer your first question first, Yes, Beacon Hill has you know,
a state legislature has the capacity to set regulation our footport,
regulation in motion, pass laws that govern how you know
these you know we're then these used to be what
(27:10):
we would call rooman houses, you know back in the
old South End, low horrendous South Boston. You know, UH,
places we're familiar with. You know, the state that the
legislature has the authority and gain capacity and to to
be able to set laws that govern uh certain safety
protocols around these facilities, UH and also play a role
(27:34):
in ensuring that the communities in the Commonwealth adequately protected.
So I think that's Uh, that's certainly something that I
know that our professional firefights in Massachusetts. The state Union
Richid mckinnap president Jay serves on that board. Uh, they're
looking very closely at how we can how the state
(27:57):
can help ensure that we iradically adequately protecting the citizens.
So I think that that is a move in the
right direction. So what can the average residents or taxpayer.
Speaker 7 (28:11):
I know, we can advocate locally for more funds for
public safety and fire. You know, I live in Cambridge.
We have a great public safety, great fire department. They're
refurbishing all the fire stations now and it's not like
that in the other cities of towns. But so what
can the average resident do that urge for more funding
for firefires.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I think you need to make sure that your town
manager or you know, you live in a city, but
you know they're in the smaller towns and and you know,
we have to have the resources to meet the risk
in the jurisdiction. Right if you have special hazards, you
need special ability. You know, you need special resources to
be able to respond vis a v You can mean
a relatively small town, but if you've got a massive
(28:53):
refinery in that sound. Then the town should be ensuring
that whatever that's special hazard is is playing its role
to make sure the town has the proper resources to
be able to respond to that special hazard. And you
know that's something that I think people need to make
sure that they're elected, uh and they're appointed because a
(29:14):
lot of these tim manders are appointed. Know that fire
for section is something that you pay your taxes for
and it's something that you should have. We shouldn't have,
you know, a million dollar fire engine it pulls up
with one person on it, because that's not the fire
department coming to your health else to help you know,
that's one firefighter. One firefighter cannot perform the task needs
(29:37):
and a building.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Fire by the way, gentlemen and ed you know this
better than anyone. Are they not communities even in Massachusetts
that still rely on volunteer firefighters?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yes, And I would tell you Dan that there's a
there's a there is a place for volunteer firefighters, and
there's a place for what we call call fire departments.
There are there are that's a justifiable if provided however,
you can you have adequate volunteers that can meet the need. Uh,
(30:11):
You know. But what what we see too often is
in places where have volunteerism is down, you don't see
the numbers that they had back in the day when
you know those communities that were you know, working class
now rust belt towns type type places where they had
you know, a factory there that everyone that worked in
(30:33):
the factory were volunteer firement. If you worked the first shift,
you responded to the calls overnight. You know, if you
worked over the overnight, you respond to the calls during
the day, and it worked. That's not the society we
live in now. So as as the as that volunteerism
doesn't have the capacity to answer the need, then the
(30:54):
cities and towns have to adequately manage and ensure that
there are resources, you know, paid firefighters that can answer
that call tech the community.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I would think that in any community there can be
volunteer firefighters that can help, but there should be a
couple or three or four, or a group of five
or seven or eight who were paid full time so
that that firehouse is staffed. I lived in the community
which was primarily volunteer firefighters, and it's one of the
more affluent communities in Massachusetts and they didn't have big
(31:31):
rooming houses as you said, or retirement centers or assistant living,
whatever you want to call them. Of the all of
the stories that I read in the Globe today suggested
that many of the people who were living there it
was what they could afford. They couldn't go to the
higher end assisted living. And that's why I was asking
(31:53):
Jay earlier about whether or not the sprint was worked.
If the alarms worked, I mean, you know, all of
that will come out of the investigation, but I hope
that they can use this as an example. I want
to see my tax dollars helping communities that don't have
the resources. If Cambridge has the resources, Rob, and they're
in good shape and they comply with what Ed talked
(32:16):
about in terms of national standards, great, But if Fall
River doesn't have it, if New Bedford, Lawrence Lowell, that's
where I want my tax dollars spent. Fire comment, Rob,
we got to run to a break here at a moment.
Speaker 7 (32:29):
No, I'm going to thank you and keep us the
good work. And I accept my sympathies to the people
in the Fall River so.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Well, I'm doing nothing. I'm talking. These are the guys
that actually are they respond when the alarms come in.
So thank you, Rob, appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Thank very much, Thank you Rob.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Thank you Rob.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Gentlemen, we take one more break here, and I promise
to let you go by eleven. It's been a long week,
and I really appreciate the time. But I think we're
spreading the word to a lot of people tonight who
perhaps take their fire department for granted. I think you
got to go and talk to your city manager, as
Ed said, or to your to your mayor. If it's
a big city. How many firefighters do you have? How
(33:09):
many units there, and how do they compare to the
national standards for a community with your population?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
The magic question right there, Dan, can you meet the
national standards for response times with the adequate personnel?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Perfect? We got more calls coming in the only lines
open right now. Six. Dana and Kathy are coming up
back on this right right right after this brief message.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Night Side with Dan Ray, I'MBZ Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
All right, we're going to get everybody in here. Let
me go to Dana in Middleborough. Dana, you are next
on Nice That with Ed Kelly, the President of the
International Association of Firefighters and Lieutenant Jay Burns to the
Fall River Fire Department. Go right ahead, Dana.
Speaker 8 (33:56):
Thank you so much for talking about this. Dan. I'm
just horrified by all of it, and I just want
to know. I don't want to have to wait for
politicians to make the right decisions. So often they don't
and we've seen these things happen before. So Lieutenant Burns,
what can we do to help right now? Is there
something that ball Over needs?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Is there something that you know?
Speaker 8 (34:17):
These firefighters have seen something incredibly horristic hoerrifict and I
just want to know how we can help immediately.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
I appreciate that, and I will tell you the community
of Fall River has always supported off all firefighters. I've
had a lot of private messages, text messages, phone calls.
People want to show up to the firehouse, maybe bring
coffee and donuts. And while coffee and donuts will never
be turned away, I want to tell you I also
work for the Last Call Foundation and Memory of Michael Kennedy,
(34:47):
and we are turning donations back into the fire service
for the ability for firefighters to be able to address
some of their mental health and behavioral health issues. So
you can go to the website, you can make some donations,
but we're bringing it right back to the firefighters. And
I think that's what is going to be a long
(35:09):
term need for a firefighter. So if you can, you know,
kind of do that, I think that's going to be
a way to really help out firefighters.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
And Michael Kennedy was one of the two Boston firefighters
who died in that fire on Beacon Street a few
years ago.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Correct, thank you, Dana, we'll do that.
Speaker 8 (35:23):
Thank you for all you do.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Appreciate, thank you. Let me go next to Kathy in Braintreet. Kathy,
you were on with Ed Kelly, the president of the
Internet Association of Firefighters, the national president. How many people
do you represent and how many how many firefighters across
the country, and of course in addition to them, they're
families as well.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
We have about three hundred and sixty thousand members in
the United States and Canada.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Well, okay, a lot of people. And also we're delighted
to be joined by Lieutenant j Burns, who about I
don't know, ninety six hours ago he was in the
midst of this battle at this fire in Fall River. Kathy,
welcome your next one night side right ahead.
Speaker 9 (36:04):
Hi there, I happen to be Michael Kennedy's mother. Hey guys,
I have some suggestions I've been making for years and years.
The Fire Service needs an untouchable, dedicated revenue stream that
(36:27):
can be allocated as needed across the commonwealth because what
they're doing now does not work. And the way the
fire service budgets are cut is just it's arbitrary and
sometimes it's me spirited. And if people are injured, they
don't get the proper training, they don't have the proper equipment.
(36:51):
It's nightmarish what goes on. And if we have a
dedicated revenue stream that public pians can't touch, that is
directed towards the fire Service for them to use appropriately,
you'll see such a major difference, not only in the
(37:12):
services provided, but in the morale. What goes on in
the fire Service is it's tragic, truly is. And I
don't understand why firefighters run into a building and they're
there to save lives and that's what taxpayers dollars go toward. Now,
(37:35):
when they go into that building to put out the fire,
who's paying for that? It's the taxpayers. Why isn't it
the insurance companies. Why aren't the insurance companies, you know,
putting up a percentage of their fire insurance toward the
fire service they should be getting. I don't know. Ten fifteen.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
It's interesting, very interesting point, Kathy. A quick comment. We're
getting tied on time from you and that suggestion. I
think that's a really interesting suggestion that the first thing.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
I love you going in your suggestions out of one
hundred percent correct in everything that you said is one
hundred percent correct. There is actually a provision in the
Mass General laws that the insurance companies do have to
pay the state certain revenues, a certain amount of revenue.
(38:32):
It's it's file below where you're talking Kathy fa below.
I believe it, Yeah, that that is designed to help
assist the fire service. Now, Kathy makes a good point.
You know, when we put out a fire, we prevent
it from getting into the building next door. In all
(38:55):
of these cities around New England, that's all you know,
built on top of each other, one hundred and fifty
yars ago, we're saving it with saving the insurance companies
billions of dollars, and there's merit to the concept that
they have skin in the game and that you know,
when we look at cities like you know, Fall River
(39:15):
that's understaffed, which, by the way, most cities are understaffed.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
It's it's a big issue, and it's something that people
have to hold our electeds accountable because it's one of
those things you can you can play roulette so many times.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, you know, and one time the bullets in the chamber, Ed,
I'm slat up against at Kathy, if you will take
my number from Rob, call me and maybe we can
do something on this, uh at some point in the
next couple of weeks specifically. Okay, so please take my
number from Rob and give me a call Rob, give
Kathy my direct line. Ed Kelly, president of the I
(39:52):
A f F and Lieutenant Jay Burns simply put, thank
you both for what you do, and thank you for
your time tonight. And I hope well, well my pleasure,
my absolutely and stay safe, stay well, and I miss
sing you in Boston, but you do a great job, Nashally,
we'll talk soon, Okay, thank you, Thanks guys, have a
great night. Eleven o'clock news awaits on the other side.
(40:16):
We will go there right after the eleven o'clock News
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