February 23, 2025 • 46 mins
Building a personal brand in today’s digital landscape hinges on authenticity and trust. The episode discusses the importance of combining personal interactions with strategic marketing efforts, addressing the role of AI in copywriting, and emphasizing the critical need for effective email strategies and sales funnels.
• Personal branding as a unique identifier in a crowded market
• Trust as a cornerstone of effective marketing
• Balancing automation with genuine human connection
• The necessity of starting an email list early
• Developing a clear brand voice and messaging
• Effective sales funnels combining nurturing and conversion
• The importance of ongoing testing and adaptation in marketing strategies
• Strategies for content creation across multiple platforms
• Maintaining authenticity in the face of increasing AI use
• The complexity of marketing demands persistent effort and strategy
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Guest Contact Information:
Website: https://convictionmarketingagency.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-cevallos/
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The Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing podcast is a podcast hosted by Internet marketing expert Matthew Bertram. The show provides insights and advice on digital marketing, SEO, and online business.
Topics covered include keyword research, content optimization, link building, local SEO, and more. The show also features interviews with industry leaders and experts who share their experiences and tips.
Additionally, Matt shares his own experiences and strategies, as well as his own successes and failures, to help listeners learn from his experiences and apply the same principles to their businesses. The show is designed to help entrepreneurs and business owners become successful online and get the most out of their digital marketing efforts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Your insider guide to the strategies top marketers
use to crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
All right, and we're here.
We're live.
I am your host, matt Bertram,of the Unknown Secrets of
Internet Marketing.
We are continuing our series ofthe Unknown Secrets of Internet
Marketing.
We are continuing our series ofthe movers and shakers in the
industry that are experts in alldifferent types of areas.
You know I'm well known as anexpert for SEO and as far as
(00:39):
branding and email marketing andall that other stuff, I want to
bring in some of the topexperts for the audience to hear
more about.
And, danielle, I am so excitedto have you on.
I want to get into this.
I think that personal branding.
I actually did write some booksabout it years ago.
(00:59):
I saw kind of the emergence ofPR and personal branding with
SEO, like digital PR, many yearsago and I wanted to bring on
somebody that does that everyday, and we were talking
previously about email marketingand AI and I just really
thought it'd be good to bringyou on.
Could you please credentializeyourself real quick and then
(01:20):
we'll just jump into theconversation.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, I'll give you the really short list of
highlights.
I actually had a whole othercareer in education that's what
my master's is in and I was likean old school blogger.
So SEO is I started a littlebit there, had like a viral blog
, learned all the marketingstuff as it came out social
media and email and all thatlike as it was happening, and I
actually was a copywriter whileI was teaching on the side,
(01:44):
because teachers make no money.
And I ended up working for somevery, very, very big name
internet people training theircopywriters, writing their copy
for companies, you know, doing$100 million in revenue, and
ultimately decided to come inhouse with one of my mentors and
helped her build her company toeight figures, largely managing
(02:10):
the marketing department, andthen we have since started.
It started with one company, Nowthere's six.
I am the president of three ofthose companies and oversee the
marketing for all of thosecompanies.
So one of the companies is amarketing agency where I help
medical practitioners andcoaches, consultants, doctors,
work on their email marketing,their personal brand strategy,
some social media strategy,messaging, positioning, all of
(02:33):
the fun stuff.
So I've had my personalexperience of doing it myself
and now I get to kind of seebehind the scenes of marketing
for businesses doing, you know,anywhere from 2 million to $50
million in revenue.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So Super, super impressive, super impressive and
and I think that building apersonal brand strategy to cut
through the noise today is isreally really key to you.
Know, start out, if you're aone person practice or you're
growing you, being the brand iswhat is the lightning rod that
(03:11):
attracts people to you.
And if you can do contentmarketing through podcasts and
books and speaking one to one tomany kind of broadcasting and
people know who you are and whatyour brand is.
People, when they see you orunderstand you, they know what
you do and they'll be attractedto you.
(03:32):
I think that it's really reallyimportant in today's age.
Copywriting, like Dan Kennedyread all his books, all the
different niches, you knowreally really powerful.
Let's let's talk about AI,because I think everybody's
freaking out Right About AI, andI rightfully so.
(03:53):
I think AI agents are comingand it's going to be pretty wild
.
I'm excited.
We live in this time, you know,but right now people are just
getting a taste of it with, like, maybe the chat, gbts, the
rocks, that sort of thing.
You know, when AI writes titles, they seem to be a little
(04:15):
repetitive currently.
You know, now you can train.
You can train your largelanguage model right, like you
can load in a bunch of stuff.
You can improve it with theright prompts, but if you're
just out of the gate utilizingit for stuff while you do get a
title, it's not great, right?
(04:35):
I mean, what has been yourexperience?
I know, being deep in the emailmarketing and copywriting space
like you're bumping up againstit, and you're probably bumping
up against clients of, like whyshould I pay you?
Uh, you know I can use chat forfree, right?
Like.
So what's the?
What's the argument for that,right?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Um, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts and this is
something I've actually had tokind of work through.
Um, because obviously it's,it's like the internet.
You can't act like, oh, thisisn't happening, it's not real,
it's just a phase.
This is not just a phase.
This is going to do what theinternet did to everything.
It's going to do the same, andso to not pay attention is naive
(05:14):
.
On the flip side, people whohave gone all in basically
removing all the human touch,all the things that are uniquely
human, that a robot, a machine,cannot do, they're really not
doing well, because we're livingin a world where there's just a
significant lack of trusteverywhere, and there are a
(05:36):
million reasons, and so one ofthe ways that you build trust is
by building relationships, andwe know this because old school
used to network right Like youwould go to events and you would
meet people in person and you'dbuild relationships and they'd
refer people and you'd referpeople back and it was just an
understood thing.
You were building your personalbrand back then.
You were doing that then.
So, while I will not bury myhead in the sand and act like AI
(06:00):
isn't a thing, I also I refuseto allow it to replace
people-centric marketing,because everything we know about
what has always worked ispeople and, living in the times
that we live in, where literallynobody trusts anybody, we've
seen clients with thousands ofreal testimonials thousands, not
(06:22):
hundreds, not dozens thousandsof real testimonials.
So you would think, gosh, thisis so much proof that they can
get results, and people arestill hesitant because there's
something in us that says don'ttrust people, don't trust people
.
And so when you build yourpersonal brand, you're building
trust.
Now we do use AI, and so I havea few parameters and this is
(06:43):
something, something, just somegeneral rules that I think.
So I run an art agency.
I have a large full-time W2Memployees.
You know, in our agency wedon't do contractors.
These are real people.
I mentor them.
They fly to me once a month,like we do training in-house.
They are not allowed to use AI.
They have to learn all of theskills.
They are not allowed to use AI.
They have to learn all of theskills.
(07:04):
And now there will be a pointwhere they can, but until you
know the psychology of marketing, until you understand the ideal
buyer and the personas and whatthat actually means in a
tangible way, until you can takea piece of copy and make it
nuanced and personable and real.
Ai is cheating you fromdeveloping those skills.
(07:25):
Now there's myself and a coupleof other people on our team who
are very, very seasoned.
I can use AI.
I have written hundreds ofsales pages that convert highly.
I know exactly what works,almost intuitively, not all the
time.
So when I sit down, number oneI have programmed my AI with my
own frameworks, with my own work, and I've said, hey, I have a
(07:49):
body, 10 years of thousands ofhours of copywriting.
I'm going to give it to you andthen I'm going to ask you very
specifically to prompt it in acertain way, and then I know how
to go back and edit it Because,again, I have years and years
of reps that this new teamdoesn't have.
They have to build the musclesfirst and know what looks good,
(08:10):
what's right, what's wrong, whyit's right, why it's wrong, and
then they can start using thisto, you know, be more efficient,
to get more outcome in lesstime.
But I think the mistake ispeople think it's going to do
the thinking work for them andit's not.
So you have to.
I say this all the time.
Every marketing strategy, andobviously you know this in SEO,
(08:32):
every marketing strategy willrise and fall on positioning and
messaging, and you cannotshortcut that.
There's nothing to do that willshortcut the need to
effectively position yourcompany, your brand yourself,
and to get clear on messaging.
That's not something a machinecan do for you because it's
nuanced.
Once you have that, all theother pillars can be kind of
(08:56):
built up under that.
You can build a contentstrategy, you can build your SEO
strategy, you can build yourpodcast, youtube strategy, but
you cannot do anything withoutthat, and so, without a deep
understanding of what makesthose two things effective, you
can get chat to write a bunch ofrandom posts.
For you it's not going tomatter, because you don't have
the overarching strategy inplace and you don't know what
(09:17):
good looks like, and so you'rejust letting it create a generic
brand.
That's ultimately going to dothe opposite of what you need to
do.
It's not going to build trust,it's going to undermine your
trust.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So no, I agree with that.
I think that it's all about theoperator, right?
So if you don't know what goodlooks like, you're just going to
trust what it does and it mightnot be correct.
Now you know, on basic things,it's pretty good, right.
It's pretty accurate at rightit's.
It's it's pretty accurate at atinformation recall, right Like
(09:47):
it.
It knows a lot of stuff butdoesn't understand the nuances.
I think that there's a componentalso of genuineness, right Of
like who you are, are you whoyou say?
You are right and like.
People want to connect withpeople, they want to know like
people do business with peopleand people do business with
(10:08):
people.
They know, like and trust.
And if you present one wayonline or your copy presents one
way and it's not reflective ofyour brand, when they get on the
phone with you, like have you,have you done that?
Like, have you like got on thephone with somebody after you've
been like emailing back andforth or you've like read all
(10:28):
their stuff, and they actcompletely different and it
becomes like such a turn off.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah yeah, oh yeah.
I thought it happened more moreoff.
Often with clients they're likethis is who we are and you get
back by the business and you'relike, oh no, not really, you're
not doing what you say yeah andso.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
so it's about making that connection and and and and
wanting to work with that personand and, and we can, we can
through through this hyperspace.
I don't know what what this islike.
We're.
We're in virtual reality rightnow, right Like you're looking
at avatar of me, I'm looking atAvatar of you.
We're across the country, youknow, but it makes the world a
lot smaller in virtual reality,but we still want to connect
(11:12):
with people.
We still, you know, want toknow who we're dealing with and
can you count on this person anddo you have my best interest at
heart?
And like those are, I think,the number one thing that I've
seen.
I've seen it in data and I'vealso seen it when clients feel
like they're a number RightVersus a person, like the apathy
(11:34):
component is is why clientsleave Right.
That's just as specific to twoagencies.
We got a lot of agencylisteners out there and you know
you can grow and you can scaleand you can do all that, but it,
but it's that personal touch.
Now here's the thing automation,ai, you can build at personal
(11:54):
experience, like that's what.
That's what I, that's what drewme in to actually digital
marketing in the first place, Iwas doing cold call selling you
know 60, 80 calls a day, okay,and I started to learn with the
internet.
I could create a personalizedexperience for every person I
was talking to as far as, like,email drips, follow-ups, stuff
(12:16):
like that, and I could connectwith them and create that
experience for them that Iwanted them to have.
And then I could scale it Rightand, you know, you can use
things to send out a birthdaycards.
Hey, I care about this person.
I, I, I did the work, I set itup.
You know, I want to remind themlike hey, I know there's,
there's a lot of things that wecan utilize this for and it can
(12:39):
help build your network.
But if you're just going to AI,just do it for me, you're going
to get let's talk about thatfor a minute, like you know.
So email, email, emailautomation, right, email
(13:01):
automation with the brand voicein the message Like, how would
you frame that up?
Because I think that that'sreally important that when
you're emailing out to people,you're trying to communicate a
certain message.
Like how do you, how do youlook at that when you start
start a campaign or a projectfor somebody?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, so I have some probably unpopular opinions here
, but I think ultimately, mostpeople don't have a brand voice.
They have no real clarity onwho they are and their messaging
and they're like I just want myemail to convert people.
But you have to understand theinbox is one of the most
competitive places to be.
It's highly effective, right,so you're much more likely to
(13:33):
make a sale from your emailsthan you are from your Instagram
posts, but it is extremelycompetitive.
You're not just competing toget in the right tab, but people
are drowning in emails all daylong from everyone requesting
things from them for work, forwhatever they're doing, their
kid's school it's everywhere.
It's all in the email, and soyour email strategy has to be
(13:57):
like an actual strategy, andnobody ever wants to take the
time or pay the money to build astrategy.
They want emails written forthem quickly.
Wants to take the time or paythe money to build a strategy.
They want emails written forthem quickly.
And emails written for themquickly.
You can have it.
Chat to you to do it.
It's going to be like a, bminus, so you'll be all right,
but you're really not going toget the traction you want and
over time.
What happens is you train peopleto tune you out.
(14:20):
If you don't provide value forlong enough, they will open a
few times.
Right, you get some goodsubject lines in there, they'll
open it.
If it's not good, if it's notsomething they want, you're
actually training them to notpay attention to you because now
they're going to see that namein the inbox and be like that's
always stupid, I always fall forit, I always open it and then
stupid and they're not going tounsubscribe.
(14:41):
Sometimes they will unsubscribe, but sometimes you just stay
there and kill your open ratesand kill your click-through
rates because they're not goingto take the time to unsubscribe,
but they really don't careabout what you have to say.
So the first thing I think isso critical is number one.
Going back to positioning andmessaging, what are you trying
to position yourself as?
Does that translate down intoan actual email strategy?
(15:04):
Does that translate down intoan actual email strategy?
Do you even have a brand voicethat's documented, that's real
and that is across platforms?
And then, as you'reimplementing the email strategy,
are you paying attention to thedata to see what people are
taking action on, what's drivingresults, so that you can do
more of that.
Most people don't look at any ofthat.
They're like are open rates low?
So let's change the subjectline.
(15:24):
Like which open rates don'teven matter anymore because
they're not even that accurate.
So they do matter, but they'renot.
They're not accurate, you know,in terms of what is actually
going to drive results.
So they're like oh, my clickthrough rates low, make the
button bigger or make it adifferent color, like things
that have nothing to do withactually creating content.
(15:45):
That like See, there's probablyabout two people I can think of
two people where I like seetheir name in my inbox.
I'm like oh, I like their stuff.
I actually want to open this.
And everybody else.
I'm like eh, if it's a goodsubject line, I might Like maybe
on a good day, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I think it's about creating value, right, and if
someone's going to open theemail, I mean we're long away
from the day that you got anemail and everybody would read
every word of every meme onthere, just super impressed by,
like I remember, like you know,emails were so cool, right, um.
And and now, like I have to useai to filter out my emails
(16:27):
because, also, I think you knowI read this book I I can't
remember who wrote it.
It was called PermissionMarketing.
Like anybody I talk to justautomatically puts me on an
email list.
Okay, that's a new way tointeract with just puts me on an
email list, and so I have tohave like a ritual process to
(16:47):
like filter out these emails.
Now, you know, I think the bestidea is probably put like
create a separate email fornewsletters, drive into that,
put it in folders.
You know, if you're reallyorganized, do that.
But I have so many people thatare sending me emails to my work
email and I don't get to seeclient stuff, you know,
(17:09):
sometimes because I'm buried inall this other stuff.
So then I have to like purge itand I've used a couple
different ai tools to filter itout, to kind of rise it to the
top.
Hey, these are the things Iactually need to respond to.
I think that you know people golook for a problem or a
solution when they need it.
Okay, now, unless you make thatconnection with them right and
(17:33):
you know I I mean, I've seendaily work Great, right, people
use, say, monthly, I thinkbiweekly, you know, or every
other week, or even weekly.
You know, if you can do dailyif you want, if you want to have
that kind of relationship withsomebody, um, you know that
that's what works best, but youcan't put out junk, Right.
So, um, I think it's hard.
I think the reason that peopledon't do emails and and here
(17:56):
here's something I do want tosay to, to kind of strengthen
what, what you're doing I, Iwent to a seo conference not
long ago and, um, they listedall the different channels that
drive conversions and stilltoday, emails number one
conversion is emails.
(18:17):
Okay, and people keep sayingemails are dead, but people keep
the same email on average foreight years, to your point.
I think, if your open rates aregetting killed, you might want
to unsubscribe people, like youwant to have this big list, but
like it's almost like youtubeshorts, like the reason they do
so well is because the algorithmis made, because people are
(18:39):
watching the whole thing, likeyou know, and so if you're
sending emails to people andpeople are not opening them, it
does hurt your open rates.
It does.
It does hurt yourdeliverability, um, and it's not
super helpful, but you've got abig email list.
Um, I think it's aboutsegmenting out the list, you
know, and sending the rightinformation to the right person.
But you gotta, you gotta set itup like, like having triggers
(19:02):
on different pages, right, like,hey, you're interested in this.
Would you like to subscribethis newsletter.
You know, I love thosenewsletters where you can check
the box of the things youactually want to hear about
versus not right, and it'susually actually for a certain
time period.
You're trying to solvesomething, you're trying to get
answers to something, it'srelevant and it's relevant and
(19:23):
then it changes.
It just depends, right.
I mean, how do you, when you'reapproaching clients and you're
looking at their marketing andyou know where do you decide in
that mix that, hey, I think weneed to implement emails?
And then, on the far end of itbecause I know I want to talk
about personal branding, somemore like, what like are you?
(19:47):
Are you doing?
let's establish the personalbrand, the voice, um the look
and then are you moving intoemails or how are you
approaching new, new clientslike the doctor or something
like that?
That's probably just doing abunch of random stuff.
That's what I see a lot ofpeople doing.
They're just doing a bunch ofrandom stuff.
They don't really know whatthey're doing.
(20:08):
They're not tracking anything.
They think they're doing stuff.
They're spending a bunch onAdWords.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
It's just stealing their money.
They're spending a bunch oneverything random tech, people,
I mean all these things, 25agencies that aren't talking to
each other yeah, yeah, all thisstuff, um, I always go back to.
It's so boring it feels like abroken record but like a vip day
strategy.
Like what is the strategy?
Because Because your localpractice maybe you have 10
people who are totally down tolike, do Instagram reels every
(20:39):
day and you're gonna have thismassive social media presence
where you might have people.
I have a client who said herpractice like nobody's gonna do
social media.
She's like none of thosedoctors are gonna do it.
If she's not gonna do it,they're not gonna do it.
So we need a different strategy.
But I do always want people toconsider the full funnel and
understand one marketing andsales are not the same.
(21:00):
We used to live in a worldwhere your B minus marketing
could make some sales.
We do not live in that worldanymore.
You need marketing and you needsales and you need them to work
together and to just expectyour social media or even your
email to drive enough revenuefor your company is outrageous
in today's market.
So, like you have to just be atpeace, you're going to need to
learn sales, you're going toneed a sales process, you're
(21:21):
going to need a pipeline, you'regoing to need to talk to people
like.
This is the reality we live in,but then, when you look at your
marketing, you need a funnel.
So what is the way that you'regetting in front of new
audiences?
Is it ads?
Is it podcast guesting?
Is it speaking?
Is it all of those things?
It could be all of those things.
That's awesome.
Does part of your social mediastrategy have ways that you're
(21:43):
getting out in front of the newaudience?
Because you do create contentdifferently.
If you want to attract newpeople versus nurture people,
and typically people do one orthe other.
They're just nurturing the samepeople over and over again, or
they're chasing new clients, newfollowers, so much on social
that they're not actuallyestablishing themselves as an
expert.
They're just sort of like thatperson you watch on Instagram
(22:05):
all the time, but I'm nevergoing to pay for anything from
you.
So you need to have a strategythat gets you in front of new
audiences, that nurtures currentfollowers.
It shows them that you arelegit, that you are trustworthy,
that you can get results andthat they like you, like that,
they want to work with you thatif they have 25 agencies to
choose from, you're the cool onethat they want to be with
because they like you betterLike.
(22:27):
You have to do all of that inyour content, which is a
different strategy than justgetting in front of new
audiences.
So you have to account for bothof those things in your
strategy.
You have to have a way to getin front of new people.
You also have to have a way tonurture current people, and then
you have to have a way toconvert people.
So where I look at email,there's twofold right.
So I see them there.
(22:47):
Number one get your email liststarted the day you start
anything.
I have seen too many people'saccounts gone, like gone, you
own nothing.
People say this all the timeabout social media.
I have seen so many accountsshut down for no reason.
Like no reason.
It's because there's AI botswho are like oh, you said a word
that we think maybe might bewrong and they'll shut you down,
and some people get them backand some people don't, so you
(23:10):
don't own it and you could have2 million followers that are
gone tomorrow.
So email list to me is likepriority number one, because at
least you have an avenue to getto those people.
So I never tell people to wait.
But your email strategy shoulddo two things.
It should nurture people who'vealready raised their hand.
They've already said there'ssomething you offered that I
(23:30):
like, even if it's just a freelead magnet.
It's not like we're, it's notlike we're getting married yet.
Maybe you just like winked atme in a bar but whatever, like
it's enough to say like Hmm,sort of interested, and so we've
got to nurture them into moreof a relationship with us.
And then I do think you can useit for sales.
There's this, you knowespecially if you sell something
low ticket, it's definitelysomething you can use to drive
(23:52):
low ticket sales.
I do that all the time.
Once a month I do something inmy email strategy to sell
something that's under $500.
But if you sell high ticket youhave an agency or you have a
home services business orsomething like that you just get
it to book calls, right, likethe whole goal is, hey, I need
to get more sales calls, becausewe know marketing and sales are
different and I need both.
(24:12):
So I'm going to use it toassist my sales process and say,
hey, book a call with my teamif you want to talk about
solving XYZ problem and we willget you set up on a good plan
that makes sense for what youneed.
So email to me is both of thosethings.
It's both nurturing and selling.
Social media should be gettingin front of new people and then
(24:33):
nurturing those people into adeeper commitment of like
getting on your email list orattending a workshop or getting
on a sales call with folks, likefor your business and how you
sell, um, so I think they gohand in hand.
Uh, start your email listimmediately, because tomorrow
morning you wake up and yourinstagram's gone.
Your tiktok we all saw.
Everybody woke up one day andwas like, oh, tiktok is going
(24:54):
away.
All of it can be gone.
I've seen people's websiteswiped out their whole website
wiped out.
So, like you don't own, you dotechnically on your website, but
stuff goes wrong.
So build your email list andthen make sure that you have a
strategy for getting in front ofnew people, nurturing people
(25:17):
and then getting people intosales conversations.
All of that sits on thefoundation of your positioning
and your messaging.
Do not do any of those things Ifyou are not clear on your
positioning and your messaging,because otherwise you are
throwing spaghetti at a wall andagain like.
That used to be fine.
Three years ago you could havedone that and it was fine.
Now people don't trust you.
(25:37):
Even when you are super legit,they still don't trust you.
You have to have consistency inyour message, you have to have
a real plan and you need to beable to build trust.
And every time you createcontent that doesn't provide
value, that wastes someone'stime, that looks viral and cool
but undermines your expertise,you're actually telling them not
(25:58):
to trust you.
You're telling them you're notfor real.
It's working against your brand.
So you actually want to bereally intentional about what
you create.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I can tell you, learning to sell and then moving
into marketing gave me a hugeadvantage, because I feel like
marketing is selling online,right, and you're like kind of
selling, selling through that,that messaging component.
I am curious from you, and Iactually have another podcast
that's focused on heavyindustrial and oil and gas, and
it's actually a 30-year veteranin sales and marketing.
(26:39):
So we talk about how marketingand sales really work together
and I think it's really criticalfor businesses today to say, ok
, a marketing-qualified lead, asales-qualified lead, should be
very similar.
They should be the same thing,they should work together.
They shouldn't be siloed,especially when you get into the
bigger organizations.
(27:00):
My question for you is okay, Ihear it.
You need to have an email.
You need to be sending outemails.
So anybody listening to this ifyou're not sending out emails,
let it put a fire under you.
You need to be sending emails.
Get started with that.
You also need to have astrategy.
Right, you need to have astrategy.
You need to know what yourvoice is.
(27:21):
So let's talk about that for aminute.
If you're meeting with a clientand you you said earlier a lot
of people, you know they justhave a message, but they don't
have a voice.
Right, they have a message,they have a call to action.
You know they're trying to getsomeone to do something, but
they don't have a voice.
What's the framework that youuse to help them?
(27:42):
Like, I don't know if it's aworkshop, like whatever, but
like, what is the methodologyyou use to help them build who
they are?
Because I think a lot of peoplehave a really hard time
figuring out themselves, likethey can look at other people,
right, that that dress doesn'tlook good on you, or you know
whatever, you need to do this oryou need to do that, but when
(28:03):
you, when you, you look atyourself, it's very difficult to
to figure that component out.
So, you know, is there aframework that people can use?
to try to assess this, Ifthey're listening to this
podcast and they could go.
Hey, I need to ask thesequestions to myself or I need to
do these things to start movingin that direction.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah.
So we have specific likethere's not a framework that I
think people are good at doingthemselves.
So if I were taking on a newclient, I would look at.
You know I'm looking at arethey more formal or informal?
Are they like your best friend,or are they like the go-to
authority?
Are they like direct and inyour face or are they sort of
(28:44):
like that, hey girl, like what'sthe vibe?
Because they're going tonaturally create something.
I always look at content thatthey've naturally created and
written themselves.
So maybe they're going tonaturally create something.
I always look at content thatthey've naturally created and
written themselves.
So maybe they're coming to mewith emails they've written,
maybe it's social media posts,maybe they've got a podcast or
YouTube channel, but they havetheir own style for speaking.
Typically, people don'tself-identify well, though you
(29:07):
kind of mentioned that.
So when you're doing it foryourself, it's kind of hard
because you're going to think,oh, like I communicate really
directly and like an expert andI'm like, actually you're like
very soft and kind of beatingaround the bush a little bit and
using too many words, and it'slike, you know, people don't
really see themselves veryclearly, especially because
(29:27):
everybody kind of has their ownweird stuff around writing.
A lot of people think they'renot good writers and so they
look at their writing throughthis very different lens.
They might be very casual andinformal in how they speak and
how they present.
And then you look at theiremails and their like textbook.
You know, like some teachersgrading it somewhere.
So I like to kind of get peopleto you know, can I look at your
(29:48):
videos?
Can I listen to your podcast?
Can I like have conversationswith?
Get people to you know, can Ilook at your videos?
Can I listen to your podcast?
Can I like have conversationswith you to get a vibe for it?
But then the test that you cando whether you're writing it
yourself or getting writing fromsomeone else, or even chat GPT
is, once you've done your edits,give it to two or three people
(30:09):
who really know you well yourspouse, your best friend, your
sister, your brother and sayyour best friend, your sister,
your brother and say, does thissound like me?
Because typically they're goingto be better at that than you
are.
They're going to be like youwould never say this, because
you write in ways you don'talways talk and you think, oh,
I'm doing business and so I haveto talk really businessy and so
I'm going to write reallybusinessy, whereas they know you
(30:31):
and they're like you wouldnever say that.
Like that's so weird, why wouldyou say it that way?
So it's got to kind of pass,like I say, like the husband
test or the best friend test,where they wouldn't call you out
on sounding fake.
If your closest people in yourinner circle would say, like
that's not, this is not like you, that's fake, then it's no good
.
And I the the thing I always goback to when I was first
(30:53):
starting copywriting.
Or for someone now who runslike a it's, it's like a hundred
million dollar fitness company,and she said she gave the email
to her husband and he waslooking at them for some reason.
He had no clue.
It wasn't her that was writingit.
So I was like, okay, then wehit the nail on the head.
That means I did a good job.
If your husband couldn't tell,then we hit the nail on the head
.
That means I did a good job.
(31:14):
If your husband couldn't tellit wasn't you, then we're good
to go.
So it really needs to be passedthrough like somebody who's got
like a good BS radar so thatthey can say yes or no.
This sounds like you.
You can ask yourself all kindsof questions Am I formal or
informal?
Am I more friendly or am I moreauthority?
But, like I said, typicallyyou're not going to like
self-identify well, because youhave an idea in your head of
(31:35):
what you think you should beversus what you really are.
And you should really just bewhat you really are and stop
trying to be something elsebecause people will like that.
So some people, some peoplewon't like it, and that's okay,
cause you're not for everybody.
That's what.
That's why personal brands areso powerful.
They deter people, but theyalso attract people.
(31:55):
And you know, look ateverything.
You could look at everythingEntertainment, world, politics.
Like people repel and attractso strongly based on
personalities, people who won'tlike you.
They would be terrible clientsfor you.
So if they don't like you,they're not going to be a good
(32:17):
client for you.
But there'll be people who justlove you and they're like oh my
gosh, that's my person that Iwant to do this with.
So, um, don't try to besomething you're not.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
I don't know if that really answered the question but
yeah, yeah, no, no, I wouldlove to go back to you talked
about a sales funnel, okay, andsales funnel was a really hot
buzzword many years ago and youknow I can go so many different
directions with sales funnel,but everybody kind of has a
(32:43):
different definition of what asales funnel is.
So I wanted to hear from you,over the years of experience
that you developed what is asales funnel to you and what
does that framework look like?
Right, so we talked aboutsocial media.
You got your website, you gotemails, like you know, that's a
(33:04):
sales funnel.
Boom, that's a sales funnel.
If you were to give me, like theabridged I don't know if that's
the long version is that right?
Abridged, the long version?
Yeah, unabridged, I don't knowif that's the long version, is
that right?
Abridged?
Yeah, Unabridged, I don't know.
But, like, give me the longdefinition of what a complex,
fully built sales funnel is.
And and, okay, you start withthe email or you start with the
(33:25):
strategy and the personal brand.
You have the email.
What?
What would be the layers thatyou would add to it in your
opinion?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
In best case scenario , you have all the money and all
the time in the world so youcan spend as much.
You can dedicate your wholelife to building this.
To me, a sales funnel is likeold.
I don't think it's a software,it's not a ClickFunnels, nothing
like that.
It is prospecting, nurturing,converting.
That's a sales funnel.
You're finding people who wantwhat you sell.
(33:54):
You are nurturing them viarelationship, you are selling to
them and then it kind ofcircles back around where they
refer you, and so there's kindof like a reverse sales funnel
right on the back end.
If I had to say, hey, if yougave me like unlimited budget,
unlimited time, how would Ibuild it?
I would have you running ads.
So ads that when we do layersof ads, brand building, ads,
(34:16):
where we're just informationalvideos, inspiring videos we are
literally just running ads sopeople see your face repeatedly
talking about stuff so thatthey're like, oh, I like that
person and they might follow orthey might watch your next video
, and then there's a sense offamiliarity you're reading so
just brand building.
Then I would run ads that arelist building, where they're
opting in to get on your email.
(34:37):
Then I would have you on everysocial media platform, all of
them.
Ideally, you have at least onepost a day on LinkedIn, facebook
, instagram.
If you still have the TikTokapp and you can still post on it
, I'd put you there.
I'd put you on X, I'd put youeverywhere.
So you have your ads, you haveyour social.
We already talked about gettingyour emails out.
(34:59):
I like two emails a week,Ideally.
This gives you room to nurtureand provide value at least once
with no ask, and then you canmake an ask on the other day if
you want to.
So I like two.
I like one to be like a goodmeaty, like I can't wait to open
this.
I can't get this contentanywhere else.
It's so good, I love it.
So that's happening there.
(35:20):
I would also have if I got adream dream world I can do
everything.
I would have YouTube.
I would have podcasts, becausethat builds connection with
people in a in a deeper way.
Google did a study that ittakes people seven hours of
consuming your content 11different times and in four
different locations.
So when you think about how doI get someone to consume my
(35:42):
content for seven hours,podcasts and YouTube is a great
way to do that.
So I love having thosehappening in the background.
Those are brand builders.
People think they're going toimmediately make money from
their podcasts.
They're building your brandEventually, over time it will
convert, but it's a long game.
I would have you write books,if I have the dream, because
that also gets you on stages andthen ultimately have some sort
(36:07):
of dialed in sales mechanism.
So this is really dependent onwhat you do.
So in our world, a lot of peopleare doing online launches where
they are doing like livestreams for a week and selling
something online.
If you're in like a homeservices or local business type
of deal, it's probably justbooking visits or calls or
getting people in your gym, likeyou're getting people to come
(36:28):
walk in the door, so you'redoing like a free trial, that
type of thing.
And then, of course, salestakes over.
They fill their pipeline withqualified leads and then they
follow up with those leads untilthey say absolutely not or they
die, and then you can move on.
You can't move on until then.
And then, once you get the sale, you ask for the referrals To
me.
If you're saying how do I builda sales funnel?
(36:49):
That's a sales funnel to me.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
No, I love it.
I love it.
I think that there's a lot ofagency owners out there.
There's a lot of businessowners out there that are now
stressed out and they're like Ineed to do all this stuff.
I already kind of knew that.
Like.
Okay, how do I do that?
I think the one thing that Ithink I would like for you to
answer, because I think it wouldbenefit everybody, is they're
(37:12):
probably thinking how do I postonce a day on social media,
right Like and on all thesedifferent channels?
Now there's tools that you cansyndicate stuff out, but then
there's different kind of tweaksthat you need to make on
different platforms because ofthe experience that people are
having.
But a post on a differentplatform every single day,
(37:33):
people are gonna be like I don'teven know what to talk about.
Like, what would be your answerto that?
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Oh, okay.
First I wanna say that Iunderstand that's overwhelming.
This is why agencies charge somuch money.
I think people reallyunderestimate what marketing
requires.
I think they look at peoplelike Gary Vee or they look at
Alex Hermosy and they say I wantto do that.
Gary Vee spends $3 million ayear on his team $3 million a
year on his team.
Alex Hermosy just did a videoabout how he spent 4 million.
(38:00):
So you want to build thosebrands.
It takes a lot of moving parts,I think when you look at how do
you create content consistently.
I wish I had some magic easybutton.
I wish I was like I would be abajillionaire if I had a magic
easy button.
And everyone's telling you amagic easy button and they're
lying because I can tell youthere's no way to get around it.
(38:23):
You can use AI.
There's lots of video editingtools.
You can hire some teenager whoprobably knows social media
better than you and can come andfilm all this stuff, but at the
end of the day, it's still yourpersonal brand and your IP.
There's no escaping that.
I've had so many people come tome and I've said, hey, we're
(38:44):
going to build a strategy, we'regoing to write the emails or
the social media posts.
We're going to do it all.
I'm giving you a topic.
I'm giving you a topic, I'mgiving you a hook, but guess
what?
I still need you to film thevideo.
We're going to edit it, we'regoing to write the caption.
I still, we don't even needvideos.
Sometimes we're like, hey, justsend us a voice memo on your
ideas, your thoughts on thesetopics, and you'd be surprised
when people push back and say,can't you just write it?
(39:07):
Sure, well then, that's myintellectual property, that's
not yours, and so there isn't away to get around that.
Um, which yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
So here I'll tell you something that it's scary, okay
, but it's common.
Okay, you can use like 11 labsthere's, there's other tools
that you can use where you cantalk for three hours, okay, and
you use different conviction inyour voice, right, and then you
know, you can even create anavatar right of yourself and you
(39:38):
can give it to it, and that'swhere I think it's going.
Like, I think it's it's comingquick and you're going to be
able that the people that don'twant to talk or get on camera or
whatever, like that's going tobe an option to be able to, okay
, read this thing for an hour.
We'll use your voice, we'llcreate it, we'll do it.
Um, you know, I, I don't knowthat's.
(40:00):
That's where I think it's goingto go at some point.
Now, I, I don't know how peopleare going to respond to that.
I think early on it's going tobe very novel, but when
everybody's doing that, I thinkthat the pendulum might swing
the other way, um, but but Imean it it's all coming and like
you're not even going to knowwhat's real, um, and and I think
that even people think that,with the news today is like what
(40:22):
is real, and and they find atrusted source and they're like
all right, you know, whoever youlisten to the news.
I'm not going to say any newsthings to to, to spin anybody
one way or another but but, butpick your person and you listen
to them and whatever they say isgospel right, like whatever
they say is fact, and and that'swhere I think people are going
(40:43):
right.
Um, and then you got to get.
Then you got to go okay, likethere's also on youtube's
getting crazy with, like youknow, faceless videos and people
are taking other people's stuff, and then it's being changed
and you're like OK, I got tofind, I got to find the source
to make sure that this isactually what's being said.
Like this is the world thatwe're living in.
(41:04):
It's, it's going to be insane.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, I think, though , that's where your personal
convictions come in.
I can tell you that there's novideo platform that's creating
human videos that looks human,yet Do I think it will get there
?
I do.
The rate at which things aremoving, it's like very rapidly
going to happen.
I do agree with you on that,but that's like where your
(41:27):
personal convictions come in,like I believe, like we are
uniquely created by God and thatcan't be replaced, and so, for
me, I will never be okay withany sort of representation of me
.
That's not me I want.
If I'm talking to you, I'm goingto be talking to you If, if I'm
in my, if you're getting amessage from me, it will be me.
Now, that does not mean that Iwill use chat GPT for things.
(41:52):
Again, I have enough skillwhere I can make chat GPT work,
and I can make it workeffectively, but it's still my
ideas, right?
So at the end, I could go andtype in some random thing, right
?
Like write a post about youknow three ways to improve your
email marketing, but I have myown thoughts, like I have my own
experience, and how I talkabout email marketing might be
(42:13):
different, how that you wouldteach it, and then we could both
be right.
But I'm going to say it thisway because this is my
experience and that's where thenuance comes that as the world
shifts into that, when you canmaintain your humanity amidst
all that, I think you'll win atlevels that it's going to be new
and exciting and sexy at firstand it has been, we see that but
(42:38):
then people, like, still cravepeople.
This is why y'all this is whypeople pay.
Nike pays millions of dollarsto athletes who become on the
face of their brand.
They don't do that because itdoesn't work.
These companies don't spendbillions of dollars on
(42:58):
spokespeople because they don'twork.
They know that they have toconnect a person, a face, to the
brand.
It's also why you see thesemicro influencers killing it.
They are crushing like.
You are so much better offgetting five micro influencers
than you are Kardashian by far,because they trust the little
mom who's got five kids, who'sshowing the Amazon outfit, 10
times more than they trust theirKardashian.
(43:19):
So I think it's it's learningto use the tools to support
humanity instead of replace it,and if you can use it to support
it, you're going to win.
If you use it for shortcuts,you might win initially, but
then people will start to losetrust.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Yeah, no, I love that .
I think that that's why Googleactually added to, like their,
their eat framework, theexperience component.
Right, Because they saw therise of AI and they're like,
okay, we want the genuineexperiences for SEO.
Like, hey, I got to hold theproduct, I got to.
Okay, if I'm talking abouttravel, you got to be in the
location.
There's things to provide thatreal proof.
(43:58):
So we're getting close to timehere.
We've covered a lot.
I'm super excited about theconversation and where we've
gone and what we've talked about.
I would like to know from youwhat is one unknown, maybe
underused internet marketingsecret that maybe we didn't
(44:20):
cover?
Or, if you want to repackagesomething that we talked about,
I would love to hear what is oneunknown internet marketing
secret.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
I think the secret is that there's no easy button.
Marketing has 1 million layersand as much as you want it to be
cut and dry, straightforward,hit it out of the park every
time.
That's not how it is, andanyone who tells you that is
lying.
That's the secret.
Anyone who tells you there'sone thing that works and
(44:49):
everything else is dead, or thisone trick works all the time,
that's all a lie.
It's a series of understandingthe buyer, communicating how you
can provide the solution thebuyer actually wants, and then
testing, testing that messageover and over and over again.
As soon as something startsworking, it's going to work for
a few months and then you'regoing to have to change it again
(45:11):
.
So there is no secret, there'sno magic, there's no, there's
nothing you're missing.
If it feels hard andcomplicated, it is kind of hard
and complicated, and the secretis that the people telling you
that it's not are probably lying.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I love that, thank you.
Thank you very much.
So, danielle, how do people getin touch with you if they want
to hear more?
They want to hear more, theywant to get on your newsletter.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
They want to engage you for services.
Where's the best space for themto find you?
Yeah, so where I spend the mosttime is LinkedIn, and you can
find me, danielle Savalius, onLinkedIn.
I hate all the other socialmedia platforms, so you can find
me there.
But I'll also give you a linkto sign up for my newsletter,
for every Saturday, I send anewsletter that is like a deep
dive on personal branding email,linkedin, copywriting.
It is a full, like tutorialstyle.
(45:59):
I'm going to teach yousomething in that email.
So definitely get on that list.
It's free and I'll I'll put thelink.
I'll send you the link so youcan put it in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Awesome.
Well, it was great to have youon, and until the next time, if
you're looking to grow yourbusiness with the largest, most
powerful tool on the planet theinternet, you can reach out to
EWR Digital for more revenue inyour business and also check out
, danielle.
And until the next time, myname is Matt Bertram.
(46:29):
Bye-bye for now.
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Your insider guide to the strategies top marketers
use to crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
All right, and we're here.
We're live.
I am your host, matt Bertram,of the Unknown Secrets of
Internet Marketing.
We are continuing our series ofthe Unknown Secrets of Internet
Marketing.
We are continuing our series ofthe movers and shakers in the
industry that are experts in alldifferent types of areas.
You know I'm well known as anexpert for SEO and as far as
(00:39):
branding and email marketing andall that other stuff, I want to
bring in some of the topexperts for the audience to hear
more about.
And, danielle, I am so excitedto have you on.
I want to get into this.
I think that personal branding.
I actually did write some booksabout it years ago.
(00:59):
I saw kind of the emergence ofPR and personal branding with
SEO, like digital PR, many yearsago and I wanted to bring on
somebody that does that everyday, and we were talking
previously about email marketingand AI and I just really
thought it'd be good to bringyou on.
Could you please credentializeyourself real quick and then
(01:20):
we'll just jump into theconversation.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, I'll give you the really short list of
highlights.
I actually had a whole othercareer in education that's what
my master's is in and I was likean old school blogger.
So SEO is I started a littlebit there, had like a viral blog
, learned all the marketingstuff as it came out social
media and email and all thatlike as it was happening, and I
actually was a copywriter whileI was teaching on the side,
(01:44):
because teachers make no money.
And I ended up working for somevery, very, very big name
internet people training theircopywriters, writing their copy
for companies, you know, doing$100 million in revenue, and
ultimately decided to come inhouse with one of my mentors and
helped her build her company toeight figures, largely managing
(02:10):
the marketing department, andthen we have since started.
It started with one company, Nowthere's six.
I am the president of three ofthose companies and oversee the
marketing for all of thosecompanies.
So one of the companies is amarketing agency where I help
medical practitioners andcoaches, consultants, doctors,
work on their email marketing,their personal brand strategy,
some social media strategy,messaging, positioning, all of
(02:33):
the fun stuff.
So I've had my personalexperience of doing it myself
and now I get to kind of seebehind the scenes of marketing
for businesses doing, you know,anywhere from 2 million to $50
million in revenue.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So Super, super impressive, super impressive and
and I think that building apersonal brand strategy to cut
through the noise today is isreally really key to you.
Know, start out, if you're aone person practice or you're
growing you, being the brand iswhat is the lightning rod that
(03:11):
attracts people to you.
And if you can do contentmarketing through podcasts and
books and speaking one to one tomany kind of broadcasting and
people know who you are and whatyour brand is.
People, when they see you orunderstand you, they know what
you do and they'll be attractedto you.
(03:32):
I think that it's really reallyimportant in today's age.
Copywriting, like Dan Kennedyread all his books, all the
different niches, you knowreally really powerful.
Let's let's talk about AI,because I think everybody's
freaking out Right About AI, andI rightfully so.
(03:53):
I think AI agents are comingand it's going to be pretty wild
.
I'm excited.
We live in this time, you know,but right now people are just
getting a taste of it with, like, maybe the chat, gbts, the
rocks, that sort of thing.
You know, when AI writes titles, they seem to be a little
(04:15):
repetitive currently.
You know, now you can train.
You can train your largelanguage model right, like you
can load in a bunch of stuff.
You can improve it with theright prompts, but if you're
just out of the gate utilizingit for stuff while you do get a
title, it's not great, right?
(04:35):
I mean, what has been yourexperience?
I know, being deep in the emailmarketing and copywriting space
like you're bumping up againstit, and you're probably bumping
up against clients of, like whyshould I pay you?
Uh, you know I can use chat forfree, right?
Like.
So what's the?
What's the argument for that,right?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Um, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts and this is
something I've actually had tokind of work through.
Um, because obviously it's,it's like the internet.
You can't act like, oh, thisisn't happening, it's not real,
it's just a phase.
This is not just a phase.
This is going to do what theinternet did to everything.
It's going to do the same, andso to not pay attention is naive
(05:14):
.
On the flip side, people whohave gone all in basically
removing all the human touch,all the things that are uniquely
human, that a robot, a machine,cannot do, they're really not
doing well, because we're livingin a world where there's just a
significant lack of trusteverywhere, and there are a
(05:36):
million reasons, and so one ofthe ways that you build trust is
by building relationships, andwe know this because old school
used to network right Like youwould go to events and you would
meet people in person and you'dbuild relationships and they'd
refer people and you'd referpeople back and it was just an
understood thing.
You were building your personalbrand back then.
You were doing that then.
So, while I will not bury myhead in the sand and act like AI
(06:00):
isn't a thing, I also I refuseto allow it to replace
people-centric marketing,because everything we know about
what has always worked ispeople and, living in the times
that we live in, where literallynobody trusts anybody, we've
seen clients with thousands ofreal testimonials thousands, not
(06:22):
hundreds, not dozens thousandsof real testimonials.
So you would think, gosh, thisis so much proof that they can
get results, and people arestill hesitant because there's
something in us that says don'ttrust people, don't trust people
.
And so when you build yourpersonal brand, you're building
trust.
Now we do use AI, and so I havea few parameters and this is
(06:43):
something, something, just somegeneral rules that I think.
So I run an art agency.
I have a large full-time W2Memployees.
You know, in our agency wedon't do contractors.
These are real people.
I mentor them.
They fly to me once a month,like we do training in-house.
They are not allowed to use AI.
They have to learn all of theskills.
They are not allowed to use AI.
They have to learn all of theskills.
(07:04):
And now there will be a pointwhere they can, but until you
know the psychology of marketing, until you understand the ideal
buyer and the personas and whatthat actually means in a
tangible way, until you can takea piece of copy and make it
nuanced and personable and real.
Ai is cheating you fromdeveloping those skills.
(07:25):
Now there's myself and a coupleof other people on our team who
are very, very seasoned.
I can use AI.
I have written hundreds ofsales pages that convert highly.
I know exactly what works,almost intuitively, not all the
time.
So when I sit down, number oneI have programmed my AI with my
own frameworks, with my own work, and I've said, hey, I have a
(07:49):
body, 10 years of thousands ofhours of copywriting.
I'm going to give it to you andthen I'm going to ask you very
specifically to prompt it in acertain way, and then I know how
to go back and edit it Because,again, I have years and years
of reps that this new teamdoesn't have.
They have to build the musclesfirst and know what looks good,
(08:10):
what's right, what's wrong, whyit's right, why it's wrong, and
then they can start using thisto, you know, be more efficient,
to get more outcome in lesstime.
But I think the mistake ispeople think it's going to do
the thinking work for them andit's not.
So you have to.
I say this all the time.
Every marketing strategy, andobviously you know this in SEO,
(08:32):
every marketing strategy willrise and fall on positioning and
messaging, and you cannotshortcut that.
There's nothing to do that willshortcut the need to
effectively position yourcompany, your brand yourself,
and to get clear on messaging.
That's not something a machinecan do for you because it's
nuanced.
Once you have that, all theother pillars can be kind of
(08:56):
built up under that.
You can build a contentstrategy, you can build your SEO
strategy, you can build yourpodcast, youtube strategy, but
you cannot do anything withoutthat, and so, without a deep
understanding of what makesthose two things effective, you
can get chat to write a bunch ofrandom posts.
For you it's not going tomatter, because you don't have
the overarching strategy inplace and you don't know what
(09:17):
good looks like, and so you'rejust letting it create a generic
brand.
That's ultimately going to dothe opposite of what you need to
do.
It's not going to build trust,it's going to undermine your
trust.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So no, I agree with that.
I think that it's all about theoperator, right?
So if you don't know what goodlooks like, you're just going to
trust what it does and it mightnot be correct.
Now you know, on basic things,it's pretty good, right.
It's pretty accurate at rightit's.
It's it's pretty accurate at atinformation recall, right Like
(09:47):
it.
It knows a lot of stuff butdoesn't understand the nuances.
I think that there's a componentalso of genuineness, right Of
like who you are, are you whoyou say?
You are right and like.
People want to connect withpeople, they want to know like
people do business with peopleand people do business with
(10:08):
people.
They know, like and trust.
And if you present one wayonline or your copy presents one
way and it's not reflective ofyour brand, when they get on the
phone with you, like have you,have you done that?
Like, have you like got on thephone with somebody after you've
been like emailing back andforth or you've like read all
(10:28):
their stuff, and they actcompletely different and it
becomes like such a turn off.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah yeah, oh yeah.
I thought it happened more moreoff.
Often with clients they're likethis is who we are and you get
back by the business and you'relike, oh no, not really, you're
not doing what you say yeah andso.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
so it's about making that connection and and and and
wanting to work with that personand and, and we can, we can
through through this hyperspace.
I don't know what what this islike.
We're.
We're in virtual reality rightnow, right Like you're looking
at avatar of me, I'm looking atAvatar of you.
We're across the country, youknow, but it makes the world a
lot smaller in virtual reality,but we still want to connect
(11:12):
with people.
We still, you know, want toknow who we're dealing with and
can you count on this person anddo you have my best interest at
heart?
And like those are, I think,the number one thing that I've
seen.
I've seen it in data and I'vealso seen it when clients feel
like they're a number RightVersus a person, like the apathy
(11:34):
component is is why clientsleave Right.
That's just as specific to twoagencies.
We got a lot of agencylisteners out there and you know
you can grow and you can scaleand you can do all that, but it,
but it's that personal touch.
Now here's the thing automation,ai, you can build at personal
(11:54):
experience, like that's what.
That's what I, that's what drewme in to actually digital
marketing in the first place, Iwas doing cold call selling you
know 60, 80 calls a day, okay,and I started to learn with the
internet.
I could create a personalizedexperience for every person I
was talking to as far as, like,email drips, follow-ups, stuff
(12:16):
like that, and I could connectwith them and create that
experience for them that Iwanted them to have.
And then I could scale it Rightand, you know, you can use
things to send out a birthdaycards.
Hey, I care about this person.
I, I, I did the work, I set itup.
You know, I want to remind themlike hey, I know there's,
there's a lot of things that wecan utilize this for and it can
(12:39):
help build your network.
But if you're just going to AI,just do it for me, you're going
to get let's talk about thatfor a minute, like you know.
So email, email, emailautomation, right, email
(13:01):
automation with the brand voicein the message Like, how would
you frame that up?
Because I think that that'sreally important that when
you're emailing out to people,you're trying to communicate a
certain message.
Like how do you, how do youlook at that when you start
start a campaign or a projectfor somebody?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, so I have some probably unpopular opinions here
, but I think ultimately, mostpeople don't have a brand voice.
They have no real clarity onwho they are and their messaging
and they're like I just want myemail to convert people.
But you have to understand theinbox is one of the most
competitive places to be.
It's highly effective, right,so you're much more likely to
(13:33):
make a sale from your emailsthan you are from your Instagram
posts, but it is extremelycompetitive.
You're not just competing toget in the right tab, but people
are drowning in emails all daylong from everyone requesting
things from them for work, forwhatever they're doing, their
kid's school it's everywhere.
It's all in the email, and soyour email strategy has to be
(13:57):
like an actual strategy, andnobody ever wants to take the
time or pay the money to build astrategy.
They want emails written forthem quickly.
Wants to take the time or paythe money to build a strategy.
They want emails written forthem quickly.
And emails written for themquickly.
You can have it.
Chat to you to do it.
It's going to be like a, bminus, so you'll be all right,
but you're really not going toget the traction you want and
over time.
What happens is you train peopleto tune you out.
(14:20):
If you don't provide value forlong enough, they will open a
few times.
Right, you get some goodsubject lines in there, they'll
open it.
If it's not good, if it's notsomething they want, you're
actually training them to notpay attention to you because now
they're going to see that namein the inbox and be like that's
always stupid, I always fall forit, I always open it and then
stupid and they're not going tounsubscribe.
(14:41):
Sometimes they will unsubscribe, but sometimes you just stay
there and kill your open ratesand kill your click-through
rates because they're not goingto take the time to unsubscribe,
but they really don't careabout what you have to say.
So the first thing I think isso critical is number one.
Going back to positioning andmessaging, what are you trying
to position yourself as?
Does that translate down intoan actual email strategy?
(15:04):
Does that translate down intoan actual email strategy?
Do you even have a brand voicethat's documented, that's real
and that is across platforms?
And then, as you'reimplementing the email strategy,
are you paying attention to thedata to see what people are
taking action on, what's drivingresults, so that you can do
more of that.
Most people don't look at any ofthat.
They're like are open rates low?
So let's change the subjectline.
(15:24):
Like which open rates don'teven matter anymore because
they're not even that accurate.
So they do matter, but they'renot.
They're not accurate, you know,in terms of what is actually
going to drive results.
So they're like oh, my clickthrough rates low, make the
button bigger or make it adifferent color, like things
that have nothing to do withactually creating content.
(15:45):
That like See, there's probablyabout two people I can think of
two people where I like seetheir name in my inbox.
I'm like oh, I like their stuff.
I actually want to open this.
And everybody else.
I'm like eh, if it's a goodsubject line, I might Like maybe
on a good day, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I think it's about creating value, right, and if
someone's going to open theemail, I mean we're long away
from the day that you got anemail and everybody would read
every word of every meme onthere, just super impressed by,
like I remember, like you know,emails were so cool, right, um.
And and now, like I have to useai to filter out my emails
(16:27):
because, also, I think you knowI read this book I I can't
remember who wrote it.
It was called PermissionMarketing.
Like anybody I talk to justautomatically puts me on an
email list.
Okay, that's a new way tointeract with just puts me on an
email list, and so I have tohave like a ritual process to
(16:47):
like filter out these emails.
Now, you know, I think the bestidea is probably put like
create a separate email fornewsletters, drive into that,
put it in folders.
You know, if you're reallyorganized, do that.
But I have so many people thatare sending me emails to my work
email and I don't get to seeclient stuff, you know,
(17:09):
sometimes because I'm buried inall this other stuff.
So then I have to like purge itand I've used a couple
different ai tools to filter itout, to kind of rise it to the
top.
Hey, these are the things Iactually need to respond to.
I think that you know people golook for a problem or a
solution when they need it.
Okay, now, unless you make thatconnection with them right and
(17:33):
you know I I mean, I've seendaily work Great, right, people
use, say, monthly, I thinkbiweekly, you know, or every
other week, or even weekly.
You know, if you can do dailyif you want, if you want to have
that kind of relationship withsomebody, um, you know that
that's what works best, but youcan't put out junk, Right.
So, um, I think it's hard.
I think the reason that peopledon't do emails and and here
(17:56):
here's something I do want tosay to, to kind of strengthen
what, what you're doing I, Iwent to a seo conference not
long ago and, um, they listedall the different channels that
drive conversions and stilltoday, emails number one
conversion is emails.
(18:17):
Okay, and people keep sayingemails are dead, but people keep
the same email on average foreight years, to your point.
I think, if your open rates aregetting killed, you might want
to unsubscribe people, like youwant to have this big list, but
like it's almost like youtubeshorts, like the reason they do
so well is because the algorithmis made, because people are
(18:39):
watching the whole thing, likeyou know, and so if you're
sending emails to people andpeople are not opening them, it
does hurt your open rates.
It does.
It does hurt yourdeliverability, um, and it's not
super helpful, but you've got abig email list.
Um, I think it's aboutsegmenting out the list, you
know, and sending the rightinformation to the right person.
But you gotta, you gotta set itup like, like having triggers
(19:02):
on different pages, right, like,hey, you're interested in this.
Would you like to subscribethis newsletter.
You know, I love thosenewsletters where you can check
the box of the things youactually want to hear about
versus not right, and it'susually actually for a certain
time period.
You're trying to solvesomething, you're trying to get
answers to something, it'srelevant and it's relevant and
(19:23):
then it changes.
It just depends, right.
I mean, how do you, when you'reapproaching clients and you're
looking at their marketing andyou know where do you decide in
that mix that, hey, I think weneed to implement emails?
And then, on the far end of itbecause I know I want to talk
about personal branding, somemore like, what like are you?
(19:47):
Are you doing?
let's establish the personalbrand, the voice, um the look
and then are you moving intoemails or how are you
approaching new, new clientslike the doctor or something
like that?
That's probably just doing abunch of random stuff.
That's what I see a lot ofpeople doing.
They're just doing a bunch ofrandom stuff.
They don't really know whatthey're doing.
(20:08):
They're not tracking anything.
They think they're doing stuff.
They're spending a bunch onAdWords.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
It's just stealing their money.
They're spending a bunch oneverything random tech, people,
I mean all these things, 25agencies that aren't talking to
each other yeah, yeah, all thisstuff, um, I always go back to.
It's so boring it feels like abroken record but like a vip day
strategy.
Like what is the strategy?
Because Because your localpractice maybe you have 10
people who are totally down tolike, do Instagram reels every
(20:39):
day and you're gonna have thismassive social media presence
where you might have people.
I have a client who said herpractice like nobody's gonna do
social media.
She's like none of thosedoctors are gonna do it.
If she's not gonna do it,they're not gonna do it.
So we need a different strategy.
But I do always want people toconsider the full funnel and
understand one marketing andsales are not the same.
(21:00):
We used to live in a worldwhere your B minus marketing
could make some sales.
We do not live in that worldanymore.
You need marketing and you needsales and you need them to work
together and to just expectyour social media or even your
email to drive enough revenuefor your company is outrageous
in today's market.
So, like you have to just be atpeace, you're going to need to
learn sales, you're going toneed a sales process, you're
(21:21):
going to need a pipeline, you'regoing to need to talk to people
like.
This is the reality we live in,but then, when you look at your
marketing, you need a funnel.
So what is the way that you'regetting in front of new
audiences?
Is it ads?
Is it podcast guesting?
Is it speaking?
Is it all of those things?
It could be all of those things.
That's awesome.
Does part of your social mediastrategy have ways that you're
(21:43):
getting out in front of the newaudience?
Because you do create contentdifferently.
If you want to attract newpeople versus nurture people,
and typically people do one orthe other.
They're just nurturing the samepeople over and over again, or
they're chasing new clients, newfollowers, so much on social
that they're not actuallyestablishing themselves as an
expert.
They're just sort of like thatperson you watch on Instagram
(22:05):
all the time, but I'm nevergoing to pay for anything from
you.
So you need to have a strategythat gets you in front of new
audiences, that nurtures currentfollowers.
It shows them that you arelegit, that you are trustworthy,
that you can get results andthat they like you, like that,
they want to work with you thatif they have 25 agencies to
choose from, you're the cool onethat they want to be with
because they like you betterLike.
(22:27):
You have to do all of that inyour content, which is a
different strategy than justgetting in front of new
audiences.
So you have to account for bothof those things in your
strategy.
You have to have a way to getin front of new people.
You also have to have a way tonurture current people, and then
you have to have a way toconvert people.
So where I look at email,there's twofold right.
So I see them there.
(22:47):
Number one get your email liststarted the day you start
anything.
I have seen too many people'saccounts gone, like gone, you
own nothing.
People say this all the timeabout social media.
I have seen so many accountsshut down for no reason.
Like no reason.
It's because there's AI botswho are like oh, you said a word
that we think maybe might bewrong and they'll shut you down,
and some people get them backand some people don't, so you
(23:10):
don't own it and you could have2 million followers that are
gone tomorrow.
So email list to me is likepriority number one, because at
least you have an avenue to getto those people.
So I never tell people to wait.
But your email strategy shoulddo two things.
It should nurture people who'vealready raised their hand.
They've already said there'ssomething you offered that I
(23:30):
like, even if it's just a freelead magnet.
It's not like we're, it's notlike we're getting married yet.
Maybe you just like winked atme in a bar but whatever, like
it's enough to say like Hmm,sort of interested, and so we've
got to nurture them into moreof a relationship with us.
And then I do think you can useit for sales.
There's this, you knowespecially if you sell something
low ticket, it's definitelysomething you can use to drive
(23:52):
low ticket sales.
I do that all the time.
Once a month I do something inmy email strategy to sell
something that's under $500.
But if you sell high ticket youhave an agency or you have a
home services business orsomething like that you just get
it to book calls, right, likethe whole goal is, hey, I need
to get more sales calls, becausewe know marketing and sales are
different and I need both.
(24:12):
So I'm going to use it toassist my sales process and say,
hey, book a call with my teamif you want to talk about
solving XYZ problem and we willget you set up on a good plan
that makes sense for what youneed.
So email to me is both of thosethings.
It's both nurturing and selling.
Social media should be gettingin front of new people and then
(24:33):
nurturing those people into adeeper commitment of like
getting on your email list orattending a workshop or getting
on a sales call with folks, likefor your business and how you
sell, um, so I think they gohand in hand.
Uh, start your email listimmediately, because tomorrow
morning you wake up and yourinstagram's gone.
Your tiktok we all saw.
Everybody woke up one day andwas like, oh, tiktok is going
(24:54):
away.
All of it can be gone.
I've seen people's websiteswiped out their whole website
wiped out.
So, like you don't own, you dotechnically on your website, but
stuff goes wrong.
So build your email list andthen make sure that you have a
strategy for getting in front ofnew people, nurturing people
(25:17):
and then getting people intosales conversations.
All of that sits on thefoundation of your positioning
and your messaging.
Do not do any of those things Ifyou are not clear on your
positioning and your messaging,because otherwise you are
throwing spaghetti at a wall andagain like.
That used to be fine.
Three years ago you could havedone that and it was fine.
Now people don't trust you.
(25:37):
Even when you are super legit,they still don't trust you.
You have to have consistency inyour message, you have to have
a real plan and you need to beable to build trust.
And every time you createcontent that doesn't provide
value, that wastes someone'stime, that looks viral and cool
but undermines your expertise,you're actually telling them not
(25:58):
to trust you.
You're telling them you're notfor real.
It's working against your brand.
So you actually want to bereally intentional about what
you create.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I can tell you, learning to sell and then moving
into marketing gave me a hugeadvantage, because I feel like
marketing is selling online,right, and you're like kind of
selling, selling through that,that messaging component.
I am curious from you, and Iactually have another podcast
that's focused on heavyindustrial and oil and gas, and
it's actually a 30-year veteranin sales and marketing.
(26:39):
So we talk about how marketingand sales really work together
and I think it's really criticalfor businesses today to say, ok
, a marketing-qualified lead, asales-qualified lead, should be
very similar.
They should be the same thing,they should work together.
They shouldn't be siloed,especially when you get into the
bigger organizations.
(27:00):
My question for you is okay, Ihear it.
You need to have an email.
You need to be sending outemails.
So anybody listening to this ifyou're not sending out emails,
let it put a fire under you.
You need to be sending emails.
Get started with that.
You also need to have astrategy.
Right, you need to have astrategy.
You need to know what yourvoice is.
(27:21):
So let's talk about that for aminute.
If you're meeting with a clientand you you said earlier a lot
of people, you know they justhave a message, but they don't
have a voice.
Right, they have a message,they have a call to action.
You know they're trying to getsomeone to do something, but
they don't have a voice.
What's the framework that youuse to help them?
(27:42):
Like, I don't know if it's aworkshop, like whatever, but
like, what is the methodologyyou use to help them build who
they are?
Because I think a lot of peoplehave a really hard time
figuring out themselves, likethey can look at other people,
right, that that dress doesn'tlook good on you, or you know
whatever, you need to do this oryou need to do that, but when
(28:03):
you, when you, you look atyourself, it's very difficult to
to figure that component out.
So, you know, is there aframework that people can use?
to try to assess this, Ifthey're listening to this
podcast and they could go.
Hey, I need to ask thesequestions to myself or I need to
do these things to start movingin that direction.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah.
So we have specific likethere's not a framework that I
think people are good at doingthemselves.
So if I were taking on a newclient, I would look at.
You know I'm looking at arethey more formal or informal?
Are they like your best friend,or are they like the go-to
authority?
Are they like direct and inyour face or are they sort of
(28:44):
like that, hey girl, like what'sthe vibe?
Because they're going tonaturally create something.
I always look at content thatthey've naturally created and
written themselves.
So maybe they're going tonaturally create something.
I always look at content thatthey've naturally created and
written themselves.
So maybe they're coming to mewith emails they've written,
maybe it's social media posts,maybe they've got a podcast or
YouTube channel, but they havetheir own style for speaking.
Typically, people don'tself-identify well, though you
(29:07):
kind of mentioned that.
So when you're doing it foryourself, it's kind of hard
because you're going to think,oh, like I communicate really
directly and like an expert andI'm like, actually you're like
very soft and kind of beatingaround the bush a little bit and
using too many words, and it'slike, you know, people don't
really see themselves veryclearly, especially because
(29:27):
everybody kind of has their ownweird stuff around writing.
A lot of people think they'renot good writers and so they
look at their writing throughthis very different lens.
They might be very casual andinformal in how they speak and
how they present.
And then you look at theiremails and their like textbook.
You know, like some teachersgrading it somewhere.
So I like to kind of get peopleto you know, can I look at your
(29:48):
videos?
Can I listen to your podcast?
Can I like have conversationswith?
Get people to you know, can Ilook at your videos?
Can I listen to your podcast?
Can I like have conversationswith you to get a vibe for it?
But then the test that you cando whether you're writing it
yourself or getting writing fromsomeone else, or even chat GPT
is, once you've done your edits,give it to two or three people
(30:09):
who really know you well yourspouse, your best friend, your
sister, your brother and sayyour best friend, your sister,
your brother and say, does thissound like me?
Because typically they're goingto be better at that than you
are.
They're going to be like youwould never say this, because
you write in ways you don'talways talk and you think, oh,
I'm doing business and so I haveto talk really businessy and so
I'm going to write reallybusinessy, whereas they know you
(30:31):
and they're like you wouldnever say that.
Like that's so weird, why wouldyou say it that way?
So it's got to kind of pass,like I say, like the husband
test or the best friend test,where they wouldn't call you out
on sounding fake.
If your closest people in yourinner circle would say, like
that's not, this is not like you, that's fake, then it's no good
.
And I the the thing I always goback to when I was first
(30:53):
starting copywriting.
Or for someone now who runslike a it's, it's like a hundred
million dollar fitness company,and she said she gave the email
to her husband and he waslooking at them for some reason.
He had no clue.
It wasn't her that was writingit.
So I was like, okay, then wehit the nail on the head.
That means I did a good job.
If your husband couldn't tell,then we hit the nail on the head
.
That means I did a good job.
(31:14):
If your husband couldn't tellit wasn't you, then we're good
to go.
So it really needs to be passedthrough like somebody who's got
like a good BS radar so thatthey can say yes or no.
This sounds like you.
You can ask yourself all kindsof questions Am I formal or
informal?
Am I more friendly or am I moreauthority?
But, like I said, typicallyyou're not going to like
self-identify well, because youhave an idea in your head of
(31:35):
what you think you should beversus what you really are.
And you should really just bewhat you really are and stop
trying to be something elsebecause people will like that.
So some people, some peoplewon't like it, and that's okay,
cause you're not for everybody.
That's what.
That's why personal brands areso powerful.
They deter people, but theyalso attract people.
(31:55):
And you know, look ateverything.
You could look at everythingEntertainment, world, politics.
Like people repel and attractso strongly based on
personalities, people who won'tlike you.
They would be terrible clientsfor you.
So if they don't like you,they're not going to be a good
(32:17):
client for you.
But there'll be people who justlove you and they're like oh my
gosh, that's my person that Iwant to do this with.
So, um, don't try to besomething you're not.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
I don't know if that really answered the question but
yeah, yeah, no, no, I wouldlove to go back to you talked
about a sales funnel, okay, andsales funnel was a really hot
buzzword many years ago and youknow I can go so many different
directions with sales funnel,but everybody kind of has a
(32:43):
different definition of what asales funnel is.
So I wanted to hear from you,over the years of experience
that you developed what is asales funnel to you and what
does that framework look like?
Right, so we talked aboutsocial media.
You got your website, you gotemails, like you know, that's a
(33:04):
sales funnel.
Boom, that's a sales funnel.
If you were to give me, like theabridged I don't know if that's
the long version is that right?
Abridged, the long version?
Yeah, unabridged, I don't knowif that's the long version, is
that right?
Abridged?
Yeah, Unabridged, I don't know.
But, like, give me the longdefinition of what a complex,
fully built sales funnel is.
And and, okay, you start withthe email or you start with the
(33:25):
strategy and the personal brand.
You have the email.
What?
What would be the layers thatyou would add to it in your
opinion?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
In best case scenario , you have all the money and all
the time in the world so youcan spend as much.
You can dedicate your wholelife to building this.
To me, a sales funnel is likeold.
I don't think it's a software,it's not a ClickFunnels, nothing
like that.
It is prospecting, nurturing,converting.
That's a sales funnel.
You're finding people who wantwhat you sell.
(33:54):
You are nurturing them viarelationship, you are selling to
them and then it kind ofcircles back around where they
refer you, and so there's kindof like a reverse sales funnel
right on the back end.
If I had to say, hey, if yougave me like unlimited budget,
unlimited time, how would Ibuild it?
I would have you running ads.
So ads that when we do layersof ads, brand building, ads,
(34:16):
where we're just informationalvideos, inspiring videos we are
literally just running ads sopeople see your face repeatedly
talking about stuff so thatthey're like, oh, I like that
person and they might follow orthey might watch your next video
, and then there's a sense offamiliarity you're reading so
just brand building.
Then I would run ads that arelist building, where they're
opting in to get on your email.
(34:37):
Then I would have you on everysocial media platform, all of
them.
Ideally, you have at least onepost a day on LinkedIn, facebook
, instagram.
If you still have the TikTokapp and you can still post on it
, I'd put you there.
I'd put you on X, I'd put youeverywhere.
So you have your ads, you haveyour social.
We already talked about gettingyour emails out.
(34:59):
I like two emails a week,Ideally.
This gives you room to nurtureand provide value at least once
with no ask, and then you canmake an ask on the other day if
you want to.
So I like two.
I like one to be like a goodmeaty, like I can't wait to open
this.
I can't get this contentanywhere else.
It's so good, I love it.
So that's happening there.
(35:20):
I would also have if I got adream dream world I can do
everything.
I would have YouTube.
I would have podcasts, becausethat builds connection with
people in a in a deeper way.
Google did a study that ittakes people seven hours of
consuming your content 11different times and in four
different locations.
So when you think about how doI get someone to consume my
(35:42):
content for seven hours,podcasts and YouTube is a great
way to do that.
So I love having thosehappening in the background.
Those are brand builders.
People think they're going toimmediately make money from
their podcasts.
They're building your brandEventually, over time it will
convert, but it's a long game.
I would have you write books,if I have the dream, because
that also gets you on stages andthen ultimately have some sort
(36:07):
of dialed in sales mechanism.
So this is really dependent onwhat you do.
So in our world, a lot of peopleare doing online launches where
they are doing like livestreams for a week and selling
something online.
If you're in like a homeservices or local business type
of deal, it's probably justbooking visits or calls or
getting people in your gym, likeyou're getting people to come
(36:28):
walk in the door, so you'redoing like a free trial, that
type of thing.
And then, of course, salestakes over.
They fill their pipeline withqualified leads and then they
follow up with those leads untilthey say absolutely not or they
die, and then you can move on.
You can't move on until then.
And then, once you get the sale, you ask for the referrals To
me.
If you're saying how do I builda sales funnel?
(36:49):
That's a sales funnel to me.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
No, I love it.
I love it.
I think that there's a lot ofagency owners out there.
There's a lot of businessowners out there that are now
stressed out and they're like Ineed to do all this stuff.
I already kind of knew that.
Like.
Okay, how do I do that?
I think the one thing that Ithink I would like for you to
answer, because I think it wouldbenefit everybody, is they're
(37:12):
probably thinking how do I postonce a day on social media,
right Like and on all thesedifferent channels?
Now there's tools that you cansyndicate stuff out, but then
there's different kind of tweaksthat you need to make on
different platforms because ofthe experience that people are
having.
But a post on a differentplatform every single day,
(37:33):
people are gonna be like I don'teven know what to talk about.
Like, what would be your answerto that?
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Oh, okay.
First I wanna say that Iunderstand that's overwhelming.
This is why agencies charge somuch money.
I think people reallyunderestimate what marketing
requires.
I think they look at peoplelike Gary Vee or they look at
Alex Hermosy and they say I wantto do that.
Gary Vee spends $3 million ayear on his team $3 million a
year on his team.
Alex Hermosy just did a videoabout how he spent 4 million.
(38:00):
So you want to build thosebrands.
It takes a lot of moving parts,I think when you look at how do
you create content consistently.
I wish I had some magic easybutton.
I wish I was like I would be abajillionaire if I had a magic
easy button.
And everyone's telling you amagic easy button and they're
lying because I can tell youthere's no way to get around it.
(38:23):
You can use AI.
There's lots of video editingtools.
You can hire some teenager whoprobably knows social media
better than you and can come andfilm all this stuff, but at the
end of the day, it's still yourpersonal brand and your IP.
There's no escaping that.
I've had so many people come tome and I've said, hey, we're
(38:44):
going to build a strategy, we'regoing to write the emails or
the social media posts.
We're going to do it all.
I'm giving you a topic.
I'm giving you a topic, I'mgiving you a hook, but guess
what?
I still need you to film thevideo.
We're going to edit it, we'regoing to write the caption.
I still, we don't even needvideos.
Sometimes we're like, hey, justsend us a voice memo on your
ideas, your thoughts on thesetopics, and you'd be surprised
when people push back and say,can't you just write it?
(39:07):
Sure, well then, that's myintellectual property, that's
not yours, and so there isn't away to get around that.
Um, which yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
So here I'll tell you something that it's scary, okay
, but it's common.
Okay, you can use like 11 labsthere's, there's other tools
that you can use where you cantalk for three hours, okay, and
you use different conviction inyour voice, right, and then you
know, you can even create anavatar right of yourself and you
(39:38):
can give it to it, and that'swhere I think it's going.
Like, I think it's it's comingquick and you're going to be
able that the people that don'twant to talk or get on camera or
whatever, like that's going tobe an option to be able to, okay
, read this thing for an hour.
We'll use your voice, we'llcreate it, we'll do it.
Um, you know, I, I don't knowthat's.
(40:00):
That's where I think it's goingto go at some point.
Now, I, I don't know how peopleare going to respond to that.
I think early on it's going tobe very novel, but when
everybody's doing that, I thinkthat the pendulum might swing
the other way, um, but but Imean it it's all coming and like
you're not even going to knowwhat's real, um, and and I think
that even people think that,with the news today is like what
(40:22):
is real, and and they find atrusted source and they're like
all right, you know, whoever youlisten to the news.
I'm not going to say any newsthings to to, to spin anybody
one way or another but but, butpick your person and you listen
to them and whatever they say isgospel right, like whatever
they say is fact, and and that'swhere I think people are going
(40:43):
right.
Um, and then you got to get.
Then you got to go okay, likethere's also on youtube's
getting crazy with, like youknow, faceless videos and people
are taking other people's stuff, and then it's being changed
and you're like OK, I got tofind, I got to find the source
to make sure that this isactually what's being said.
Like this is the world thatwe're living in.
(41:04):
It's, it's going to be insane.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, I think, though , that's where your personal
convictions come in.
I can tell you that there's novideo platform that's creating
human videos that looks human,yet Do I think it will get there
?
I do.
The rate at which things aremoving, it's like very rapidly
going to happen.
I do agree with you on that,but that's like where your
(41:27):
personal convictions come in,like I believe, like we are
uniquely created by God and thatcan't be replaced, and so, for
me, I will never be okay withany sort of representation of me
.
That's not me I want.
If I'm talking to you, I'm goingto be talking to you If, if I'm
in my, if you're getting amessage from me, it will be me.
Now, that does not mean that Iwill use chat GPT for things.
(41:52):
Again, I have enough skillwhere I can make chat GPT work,
and I can make it workeffectively, but it's still my
ideas, right?
So at the end, I could go andtype in some random thing, right
?
Like write a post about youknow three ways to improve your
email marketing, but I have myown thoughts, like I have my own
experience, and how I talkabout email marketing might be
(42:13):
different, how that you wouldteach it, and then we could both
be right.
But I'm going to say it thisway because this is my
experience and that's where thenuance comes that as the world
shifts into that, when you canmaintain your humanity amidst
all that, I think you'll win atlevels that it's going to be new
and exciting and sexy at firstand it has been, we see that but
(42:38):
then people, like, still cravepeople.
This is why y'all this is whypeople pay.
Nike pays millions of dollarsto athletes who become on the
face of their brand.
They don't do that because itdoesn't work.
These companies don't spendbillions of dollars on
(42:58):
spokespeople because they don'twork.
They know that they have toconnect a person, a face, to the
brand.
It's also why you see thesemicro influencers killing it.
They are crushing like.
You are so much better offgetting five micro influencers
than you are Kardashian by far,because they trust the little
mom who's got five kids, who'sshowing the Amazon outfit, 10
times more than they trust theirKardashian.
(43:19):
So I think it's it's learningto use the tools to support
humanity instead of replace it,and if you can use it to support
it, you're going to win.
If you use it for shortcuts,you might win initially, but
then people will start to losetrust.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Yeah, no, I love that .
I think that that's why Googleactually added to, like their,
their eat framework, theexperience component.
Right, Because they saw therise of AI and they're like,
okay, we want the genuineexperiences for SEO.
Like, hey, I got to hold theproduct, I got to.
Okay, if I'm talking abouttravel, you got to be in the
location.
There's things to provide thatreal proof.
(43:58):
So we're getting close to timehere.
We've covered a lot.
I'm super excited about theconversation and where we've
gone and what we've talked about.
I would like to know from youwhat is one unknown, maybe
underused internet marketingsecret that maybe we didn't
(44:20):
cover?
Or, if you want to repackagesomething that we talked about,
I would love to hear what is oneunknown internet marketing
secret.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
I think the secret is that there's no easy button.
Marketing has 1 million layersand as much as you want it to be
cut and dry, straightforward,hit it out of the park every
time.
That's not how it is, andanyone who tells you that is
lying.
That's the secret.
Anyone who tells you there'sone thing that works and
(44:49):
everything else is dead, or thisone trick works all the time,
that's all a lie.
It's a series of understandingthe buyer, communicating how you
can provide the solution thebuyer actually wants, and then
testing, testing that messageover and over and over again.
As soon as something startsworking, it's going to work for
a few months and then you'regoing to have to change it again
(45:11):
.
So there is no secret, there'sno magic, there's no, there's
nothing you're missing.
If it feels hard andcomplicated, it is kind of hard
and complicated, and the secretis that the people telling you
that it's not are probably lying.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I love that, thank you.
Thank you very much.
So, danielle, how do people getin touch with you if they want
to hear more?
They want to hear more, theywant to get on your newsletter.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
They want to engage you for services.
Where's the best space for themto find you?
Yeah, so where I spend the mosttime is LinkedIn, and you can
find me, danielle Savalius, onLinkedIn.
I hate all the other socialmedia platforms, so you can find
me there.
But I'll also give you a linkto sign up for my newsletter,
for every Saturday, I send anewsletter that is like a deep
dive on personal branding email,linkedin, copywriting.
It is a full, like tutorialstyle.
(45:59):
I'm going to teach yousomething in that email.
So definitely get on that list.
It's free and I'll I'll put thelink.
I'll send you the link so youcan put it in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Awesome.
Well, it was great to have youon, and until the next time, if
you're looking to grow yourbusiness with the largest, most
powerful tool on the planet theinternet, you can reach out to
EWR Digital for more revenue inyour business and also check out
, danielle.
And until the next time, myname is Matt Bertram.
(46:29):
Bye-bye for now.
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