How Google Ranks Business Profiles: Trust, Reviews & AI with Brad Wetherall

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing.
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Speaker 2 (00:13):
Howdy.
Welcome back to anotherfun-filled episode of the
Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, Matt Bertram.
There's a lot going on insearch today, so thank you for
tuning in.
I thought it would be good tobring in somebody that I highly
respect and I've brought in totrain my team and I think
there's so many things going onwith LLMs.

(00:37):
People forget that Google myBusiness owns a big part of the
layout of the SERP and I thinkit's one thing that SEOs, I
think, understand to a goodpoint, but it's getting missed
in everything that's happening.
So I wanted to bring in BradWeatherall, former head of

(00:59):
Google my Business, to tell usthe real deal on how Google
looks at things from astandpoint of the Google my
business, GMP, whatever you wantto call it, GMB.
It's hard for me to still sayBrad, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Thanks for having me, matt.
Yeah, it's funny that you'restill having a hard time with
the branding of um, of, of GBPor GMB Um it.
It went through five differentnames over the course of like 15
years, so, uh, you know, peoplestill have a tendency to call
it Google, my business Um, eventhough it hasn't been called
that in, uh in in probably overfive years now, so it's.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah Well, when I say it, I like it.
There's actually someadditional like cognitive load
that I have to like, say it ordo a slash and like.
I think people understand butit's not the right name from
Google.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
My Business to the Google Business Profile, and the
whole point of moving away fromGoogle my Business is because
no one knew what it was.
It was very like it turned intoa brand, but it wasn't very

(02:14):
descriptive, and so when we weregoing through that exercise of
renaming the product, ourphilosophy was just let's just
call it what it is.
It's your business profile onGoogle.
All right, google businessprofile.
There you go.
It's obvious, right?
And the irony is that everyonestill refers to it as Google my
business.
So so we were.
We were really trying hard toto, to rebrand it, to be a

(02:38):
little bit more obvious and andand it it hasn't.
Really, it took a long time, Ithink, for people to get out of
that GMB branding.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
I think that Google business profile is the right
name.
I just wish it was called thatfrom the beginning and I think
that's part of, like you know,the internet's growing up, seo
is growing up, google's growingup and it's just a more
professional name, right, and soI think it is definitely more
descriptive and I think it wasthe right decision and, and who

(03:10):
knows why, it didn't stick.
But I know a lot of peoplelistening have a lot of
questions.
I know that through thetrainings we did, there was a
lot of myths out there that Iwant to try to bust, because I
still see today so muchmisinformation.
Like, I'm in a number ofdifferent SEO groups and I

(03:34):
always like to see what peopleare saying and I don't know
there's just a ton of false, uh,false information.
So let's, let's kind of jumpinto it.
I I'm going to think back to, uh, the, the, the two trainings
that that we've done recentlywith the team.
Um, I'm going to actually askanother question and then we'll,

(03:55):
we'll, we'll walk into that,cause I want to make sure I get
this out there for me.
One of the things we haven'ttalked about is how Google my
business, google businessprofile, views, link building
and citations.
That was something that wedidn't talk about or cover, and

(04:15):
I would love to kind of get yourthousand foot view of that and
then maybe we can get into theweeds on that and then we'll go
over some other topics.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, into the weeds on that, and then we'll go over
some other topics.
Yeah, yeah, I think that the um, the, the complicated
relationship, I think that GBPor local SEO has specifically
with link building and citations, it's, it's an interesting one,
right, because, uh, it doesn'treally influence rank that much,
right?

(04:42):
Um?
So you know, know, but what itdoes do is it increases data
accuracy, or at least Google'sphilosophy of data accuracy, and
I'll give you an example, right?
So most people in the SEOindustry know of the NAP, the
importance of NAP, right, likename, address and phone number,

(05:04):
um, you know, and I think thatfor those businesses out there
that are having a real hard timegetting verified, right, and
you know it's it's becausegoogle doesn't really have any
information to validate against,and, and so this is where link
building and citations can be abenefit for you early on in your
business's evolution is that ifyou do have an online presence

(05:29):
before Google, right, like anestablished website, and your
name, address and phone numberis represented through a variety
of different citations, itactually streamlines the
verification process.
So, instead of going throughvideo verification, which is
Google's now replacement for theold postcard verification

(05:50):
method, if Google has somethingthat it can lean into and verify
.
Then you'll get real timeverification channels.
So you'll get a phone or anemail verification option
available to you where you know.
The point of verification is toverify two things.
It's to verify the existence ofthe existence, both the

(06:11):
business and the existence ofthe business at its geographic
location in the real world.
So if it's a storefrontbusiness, it's not, does the
business exist?
But it's also does it exist atthat address that you say it
exists at?
So that both of those thingsare existence.
And then the other thing isaffiliation, which is like are
you authorized to represent thatbusiness?
Do you work at that company orare you just some bloke walking

(06:33):
by sees a sign on the side ofthe street, right?
And so if Google knowssomething about you because
you've invested in citations andwhatnot and links and building
up a great website, and it knowsall that information about you,
it doesn't have to confirm theexistence part.
It believes that already.
It only has to confirm theaffiliation part, which is why
the real-time verification kicksin and they only require an

(06:57):
email or a phone number tovalidate that.
Now, as it pertains to rankright, like it's like oh well,
my GBP business is up andrunning and it's all good.
Does that actually improve theranking?
I haven't seen any evidence tosupport the fact that it does.
But what it does do is itincreases trust, right?

(07:18):
Because, like, if you build allthese citations where these
third party sources arereferencing back to you and
they're saying like, yes, thisis a legitimate business, um, in
the event that those sources ofinformation, um collects
referrals or reviews, like likea Yelp or or any kind of like
industry specific reviewplatform, that does actually

(07:41):
help with um, with the help withthe authority and existence
component of it.
So I'm cautious to say thatthere is zero impact on rank
through link building, but it'snot the existence of the link
itself doesn't predicate thatyou're going to perform better.
The other information thatGoogle can extract from those

(08:03):
sources of information, whichand with the introduction now of
AI overviews and AI modes, it'smore important about what that
says about you, like the contextof the citation, than it is to
just have a citation in thefirst place.
An example of this is like ifyou go out to like Yext or

(08:24):
Uberall or any of these bigcompanies and they're like, we
will get you in 100 differentdirectories and I'm like, of
those 100 directories, 10 ofthem are probably good and the
other 90 are just garbage rightand so like it's, you know, from
a Google authority and rankperspective.

(08:45):
So my advice to a lot of myclients is be selective at the
directories that you invest ingetting into, because they're
not all created equal.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah Well, and also, we're going to make sure that
they're accurate every month andwe're going to charge you a
boatload of money to make surethat each one of them doesn't
get changed.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
That's an important point.
Sorry to interject, but that'san important point, right,
because if you make thecommitment to invest in these
directories and citations, ithas to be consistent, right?
If you've got different names,different addresses, different
phone numbers, all kind ofproliferated out across
different sources, it actuallyworks against you.
So you need to make sure that,if you get a go with that

(09:29):
strategy, that you're doing itright, you know, and it does
require management.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
So a couple of things that I wanted to talk about in
there, and I do want to makesure we include the video
verification process and thatchange.
I think that that was somethingthat when we move locations and
you helped us facilitate that.
I think that was super valuableto a lot of people.
But I do want to kind of goback to how you've been trained

(09:55):
and what your outlook on likeeat, expertise, authority, trust
, experience Like I would loveto hear you talk a little bit
more about just kind of what,what the lingo is inside of
Google about trust and authority, and then people can make their
own inferences.
And then I want to dovetailthat into when businesses or
when people make suggestions and, um, I feel like you know that

(10:20):
is something that I want todefinitely unpack.
But I want to hear from you,like, okay, when you say trust,
okay, what does that mean to you?
What does authority mean to you?
I would love for you to talk alittle bit more about that, just
in general.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
So it's interesting because I could use that term
trust to talk about twodifferent topics.
There is trust in terms of I'mmaking an edit to my business.
Google looks at every singleedit that you make to your
business profile and assesses itfor risk.

(10:59):
And this is really built overyears of us observing, like
really malicious and fraudulentbehavior that exists over you
know people really trying totake advantage of the visibility
that Google gives businessesand exploit that for you know
malicious intent and so you knowthat's the reason that certain

(11:24):
industries are more scrutinizedthan others.
So actually, years ago, youknow like the GBP team invested
in internally, we referred to itas the evolution of trust, or
EOT.
I mean Google loves threeletter acronyms, so like
evolution of trust was EOT, andso the whole philosophy behind

(11:48):
that initiative was we're goingto make it easier for you to
make edits on your profile.
So instead of having a realhigh barrier to entry right like
where we're going to force youto prove you know very heavily,
you know that you belong in thatprofile and able and able to

(12:10):
make edits, instead we're goingto allow you to make simple
edits but if it, if it triggersover a threshold, a risk
threshold, then internally, wewould say we're going to make
you jump through some hoops,right, we're going to make and
this is where there-verification checks come in
and so what that translates tois that if you make what Google
perceives to be risky changes,so this would be a change to the
name of the business, theaddress, the phone number, the

(12:34):
primary category and the website.
Those are the five coreattributes that we have observed
over the years as being themost risky in terms of people
exploiting the system.
Right, and I've probably got astory that I could tell you for
each one of those of where, like, there was some level of fraud

(12:54):
or malicious activity for eachone.
But just trust me when I saythose are the things that
they're paying attention to.
So Google needs adifferentiator now, right,
Because it is normal that peoplewill make a change to their
phone number or address if theymove.
You know, um, you know, and so.
So this is where the evolutionof trust project really came

(13:15):
into play, because it's like allright, what is the change that
is, um, that is taking place onthe platform, and how much do I
trust the person who is makingthat change?
And so there is this algorithmbehind the scenes at Google that
rates your level of trust, andyou can build that level of
trust by going in and suggestingedits or making edits to

(13:38):
profiles, like leaving reviews,adding photos to businesses,
right.
All of those activities,assuming that they are accepted
from Google, will elevate yourlevel of trust in the system,
right?
So the idea is that you know,oh, I know this bloke, matt.
He's been editing GBP for five,10 years and he always gives us

(14:03):
good stuff, right, like all thechanges that he suggests, all
the edits that he makes, they'reall good, they positively
contribute to the Google Mapsecosystem, so we trust Matt.
So now, if Matt was to go in andmake a change that was more
suspicious, right.
If you were to go in and changethe name or the address or the

(14:23):
phone number or any of theseattributes that are higher risk,
they're more likely to say youknow what, matt, you're good, we
trust you, right?
And that's kind of the way thatthis trust threshold works.
And so trust in the context ofGoogle Business Profile is
really around.
Like, how much history do youhave within your profile of

(14:45):
making edits and changes and all?
Is that history representativeof positive contributions or is
it resulting in rejections andwhatnot?
Right and so like?
The trust is a two-way street,right, it can go up and it can
go down, so so trust in thatcontext is really about how much
influence do you have overmanipulating what Google says

(15:08):
about a given business?

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, go ahead.
No, keep going, keep going.
I want you to finish thethought, but I do have something
to ask you about that.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Right, so I'm just going to introduce the second
part of trust, which is, so,that's kind of framework number
one in terms of, like, the trustof your profile's ability to
make a change and for Google tobelieve that you are giving them
good information.
And then the other part oftrust is in the EAT acronym,
right, like the expertise,experience, trust and authority,

(15:40):
and this is different becausethis has an ai context to it.
So, so, now, it's not, do Itrust you to make an edit?
Now it's that, okay, you've gotinformation published on your
website.
How can I trust that to be true?
Right, it's like, oh, I read iton the internet.
It has to be true, right?
I mean, like, like, google isnow in the information

(16:01):
intelligence business, actually,right, so they've moved away
and they're investing more inproviding answers to questions
instead of providing links toanswers to questions.
And this is a really bigfundamental shift that Google is
moving in, because it used tobe that Google was the librarian
that would point you in thedirection of where the book was

(16:23):
that you needed to find youranswer.
Now, google is now thelibrarian that can just straight
up tell you the answer, so youdon't have to read the book.
And so that's the danger thatruns in Google serving incorrect
information.
Right of liability of likeproviding false information,

(16:44):
because google is extracting allthis information from various
sources of the internet andserving it in the ai overview
and in ai mode as their, astheir opinion.
Right, that that's ai is sayingbased on all this research that
I've done here is my result,and so who is liable to that?
And so, in order for google toget ahead of that, they need to

(17:05):
be able to trust the source ofthe information, of where it's
coming from.
So trust in this case is moreabout this website that I'm
extracting this content from.
Is that a reputable website?
What do I know about this brand?
Is that referenced other placesas being an authority on a

(17:25):
particular topic?
How do I know that this issomething that google's going to
put their name on as theyrepresented in the context of ai
?
So this is where aioptimization, or I mean there's
about 30 acronyms for kind oflike you know ai, like what was
it?
Ai optimization or LLMO, likethere's all these funny.

(17:45):
I don't know if there's reallya proper acronym for this right
now, but you know the thing thata lot of SEO companies are
really trying to do is influencethe way that your brand is
represented in these largelanguage models.
And an interesting story on that, actually, is that, you know, I
was leading the GVP team andthe product manager that was

(18:09):
building what is now known asthe AI overview.
At the time it was searchgenerative experience, or SGE
Again three letter acronyms,right.
So they came to me and theysaid, hey, we're going to
release this thing.
We were, you know, piloting itinternally at the time and she
said to me like what are thebusinesses going to say when we

(18:30):
release this?
Right?
She was trying to get a senseof the way that it was going to
be perceived.
And I said to her you know,like, businesses on the platform
are going to want three things.
They're going to want to knowhow to get in the AI overview,
how to get out of the AIoverview and how to change the
information that's in the AIoverview right, to kind of
ideally make it more flattering.

(18:51):
And she turned to me and saidthey're not going to be able to
do any of those things.
Right, and because that's nothow AI works, right, like it's
not a database that you can goto and says oh, it says X, I'm
going to change it to Y.
It's all trained, it's alllearned data.
And so what that means for usis that we have to build

(19:12):
authority in information that weare representing, even about
our own companies.
So it's not good enough to justcreate content and throw it on
your website.
You also have to have that berepresented in other parts of
the internet so that you canincrease your authority and
trust right with google thatthat you actually know what

(19:32):
you're talking about and then,if they're going to reference
your information and yourwebsite in ai, that the risk to
google is really low, thatthey're not going to get sued
because it's incorrectinformation well, you, you open
up so many things.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
I'm taking notes here of, like, I don't know, you've
got a hard stop, but this couldbe a long one.
So I wanted to make sure tocall out something that it's
really helpful to talk to you,because you identified questions
when we were doing our trainingthat the reviews right, which

(20:08):
reviews are one of the huge.
That and the name of thebusiness are the two most
weighted factors for rankings.
That those reviews are actuallytied to the individual, tied to
the individual.
And then you were talking abouttrust and you were talking
about making edits and you weresaying, well, that's like the
local guide I don't know all thedifferent names of, but like,

(20:30):
as you increase that I wouldlove for you to talk a little
bit more about that.
And I feel like there's a lot ofbusinesses out there and
there's a lot of individuals outthere that might not be leaving
reviews, that might not beleaning into the ecosystem, and
even the label in their Chromeit doesn't identify who they are
.
That's making these edits right.

(20:51):
And so where do you see?
Where do you like?
So what is that amplificationof, of of trust look like?
Is there any idea or anythingyou can share from a threshold
standpoint or a recommendation,best practice standpoint.
But I almost feel like, when youwere talking, the owner of the
business that's attached to theGNB, which they understand, that

(21:15):
relationship goes back to, kindof like Google rolled out
authorship and pulled it backand now authorship, I think, is
really, really important today,and your money, your life, like
categories, et cetera.
Now, if you're making changesto your business or you're
active in that community, it'stied to that, that individual,

(21:36):
and then that individual ismanaging this profile.
So you know, just like Googlesays, you know, do not follow,
it doesn't matter, right, we'relooking at everything Like is
there like a relationship there?
And should the people or theowners of the business be active
in the community and does thathave any kind of impact in, you

(21:58):
know, eat?
I don't know.
It's just something when youwere talking made me think about
that.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, so there's a couple of things to unpack there
, right?
So there's the um, the thevalue of reviews, right?
Um, and then who is leaving thereview?
Um, the trust attributed tothat person.
Because you know what, I think,what started this conversation
and and you know for, to bringeveryone else up to speed, you
know, like there's there's a lotof challenges that a lot of

(22:24):
businesses have when reviewsdisappear from their profile.
And if you're a company that'shad that experience, you're
probably also familiar withfiling a ticket with Google
support and Google support issaying like they're gone, I
can't find them.
And so there's an element oftruth to that response.

(22:44):
There's also an element ofmisinformation to that response.
So the truthful part of thatand this is what Matt was saying
a second ago is that, from adata architecture perspective,
the review that is written isnot owned by the profile that
it's leaving it, for it'sactually owned by the person who

(23:05):
leaves the review.
So what happens behind thescenes?
When Google suspects that thereview is fake or whatever,
it'll delete the connectionbetween the user and the review
and the profile, so itdisappears.
And so when you file a ticketwith support, support is being

(23:32):
truthful when they say it's gonebecause the association to the
listing doesn't exist anymore.
So it's very difficult for thesupport agent to actually find
the review to put it back.
Now the way to actually get itback is to actually either give
them the name of the person wholeft the review or the text of
the review, some additionalpiece of information that they
can then use to do a lookup tofind the person in the review

(23:54):
that they left out of that dataarchitecture.
And once they found that, thenthey can reattach it.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
So is the review.
Even if it gets severed byalgorithmically, is the review
still on their profile.
It's just not showing up.
So then they can go look at theprofile.
They see it, and then theysomehow reconnect it.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
It's not on the profile.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Or their individual profile is what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
So to the user profile.
The user profile, so it is stillconnected to the user profile,
the user profile, sorry, so itis still connected to the user.
It's just not displayingbecause the way it displays on
the business profile doesn'tdisplay on the user profile.
Got it?
So it does exist.
And so when they're saying likeI've heard people say that like
once the reviews are gone,they're deleted and they're gone
forever, that's incorrect.

(24:42):
That is not true.
They can actually be recovered.
The hard part is finding themRight.
And so, like, if, if you usesoftware like I don't know, like
a lot of agencies will, willuse management software, um, I
actually partner with, um, uh,gmb API.
It's a, um, uh, a kind of a, apretty decent, cost-efficient

(25:06):
solution for-.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
For multi-location, for multi-location, yeah,
multi-location.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
You wouldn't want this for just one location but
for multi-locations.
This is really good and one ofthe features and this is fairly
common across a lot of thesoftware providers is they will
save a copy of all the reviews.
So if they get deleted you cango into the software and say
here are all the reviews thatare missing.
You can extract that, give thatto Google support and say like,

(25:33):
hey, recover all these thingsfor me, and that's way easier
for a support agent to recoverif they know what they're
looking for.
So that's kind of like part oneis kind of like the
architecture, architecture ofreviews, right.
And then you know the otherthing that I'll touch on quickly
is the importance of reviewsright, because, um, if, if

(25:53):
businesses are out there notasking for reviews, it's a big
um mistake from a, from a futureinvestment in in growth.
Because you know you saidcorrectly a second ago that the
biggest influencing factors inwhere you show up and where you
rank on Google, specifically forlocal context queries, where

(26:16):
the local package is rendered,is the name of the profile,
right.
So like, if you happen to havepersonal injury attorney in the
name of your business, you'regonna show up for that keyword
search, and then the other, thesecond one I would throw primary
category in there as well,because obviously the category
of the business is incrediblyimportant.
But the third would be reviews,and so, like you really need to

(26:41):
get.
This is like, if you thinkabout it from this perspective,
there's there's an opportunityfor you to tell Google about
your business, and that's kindof like what your GBP is, but
then there's an also anopportunity for other people to
tell Google about your business,and that's what the reviews are
.
They're a third partyrecommendation of your business.
So it's it's a vote ofconfidence in your business.

(27:04):
And so if you can get morereviews right, because the
million dollar question I get ishow many reviews do I need?
Right, it's like okay, I got it.
Reviews are important.
How many do I need?
The simple answer to that is itdepends on your competition,
right?
Because if you're in anindustry where the norm is like

(27:24):
100 reviews per location, thenyou need to at least get 100
reviews to be competitive withthat space.
But if you're in an industrywhere 10 is the competition,
then get 10, right.
But the other thing that I'llnote on reviews is that volume
is really important, butfrequency is more important than
volume, right?

(27:44):
So, yes, get the amount ofreviews that you need to be
competitive in your space, butyou have to get them
consistently.
If you have 500 reviews, butthey're all from five years ago,
google's going to look at thatand say I don't know if I can
trust that information.
It's stale, right, it's old,but if you have 500 reviews from

(28:04):
the last three months, you'regoing to be probably number one
right, like on the ranking,because Google trusts that it's
not just what you're sayingabout your business, it's what
other people are saying aboutyour business, and so the value
of reviews is just getting moreand more important, especially
as AI comes in as well, right,and in fact, in Europe and I've

(28:26):
seen you know, I haven't reallyseen a lot of experimentation
with this in the United States,but in Europe it actually
sources reviews from otherplaces.
It's not just Google reviewsthat shows up on the GBP reviews
, it sources it from, like, theequivalency of a Yelp, but like
in different countries, right,and it sources different
information of reviews, and Ithink that's an indicator for me

(28:48):
that the investment in lookingat third party information is
not slowing down.
In fact, it's speeding up, youknow, and it's using that more
and more for a vote ofconfidence in AI rank as well as
kind of like local and organicrank.
The other thing that I'll say,too, is that the keywords in

(29:10):
reviews is important as well,and it's been really interesting
to watch this trend over time.
And I think, matt, I gave thisexample in the training that I
did for your team, where I did asearch in San Diego for a
karaoke bar and I got a bar thatshowed up, but there was no
reference of karaoke bar in theGBP profile itself.

(29:33):
It wasn't in the description oranything like that, but it
showed up because it wasreferenced in the reviews
consistently where it's like Iwent to this bar and they had
great karaoke.
So it's interesting how, like,even though the business
themselves isn't kind of likepromoting it as part of their
GVP profile, the reviews isinfluencing that as a valid
response, and Google is kind oflike looking at the consumer

(29:55):
opinion to influence what itserves, and so, like it's
another really important factor.
Now, coming back to trust, theother part of your question,
right, is like so, you know,does trust in reviews hold more
weight to others?
Actually, not so much, right, Ithink it does and it doesn't.
Let me put it that way If thereview is being left by someone

(30:38):
who has created their Googleaccount 10 years ago and they're
pretty active with it they useit every day and then they come
in and they leave a review, thenthere's a high degree of trust
of, like really prevalently usedfor spam, right, like where you
could buy reviews.
A lot of the times there wassome telltale signs that it was
a fake review, like, for example, the Google account was created
yesterday and then, all of asudden, we've noticed that

(30:58):
they've gone in and left fivereviews, all in the same
geographic area, all forplumbers, and four of them were
negative reviews and one of themwas a positive review.
Now, that's obviously fake,right, because, like you know,
it's a brand new Google account,no history with it.
The activity that they can seeon the account is very

(31:18):
suspicious, so all five of thosereviews will get pulled down
for suspicious activity.
Now, the complication with thatis that the companies that who
are out there selling reviewsknow that and they know that,
like if they were to do thatpractice, all the reviews are
going to get pulled downimmediately and they're not
going to make any money.

(31:39):
So they mine Google accounts.
Right, where they create Googleaccounts, they use it a little
bit every day to try and trickthe system into believing that
it's a real person and then whenthey get an order in that says,
oh, I want 100 reviews on thisbusiness, they use those
accounts that they've beenmining over time to influence
that.

(31:59):
So our engineers have beenpretty rigorous on fighting
these guys right, like and andfinding new techniques and new
ways of detecting fraudulentactivity, um and so.
So that's kind of where liketrust is is kind of.
It's an interesting discussionin this context because it is
used to kind of, like you know,drive reliability in the data

(32:21):
that is represented.
But because the bad guys aregetting more sophisticated, it
means sometimes a lot of, likelegitimate listings get caught
in the net.
Right, because the you know thebad guys are smart and if only
they could use their powers forgood and not evil like, we'd be
fine.
But like it's, it's just youknow it's a constant battle of
fighting people trying to getaround the system.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
So many things I want to respond with to that.
I actually wanted to ask you inthat note, can you speak to how
Google views fake reviews andlike, what is the repercussions
of people engaging in that, ofpeople engaging in that?

(33:06):
Like is there criminal?
Because, like there's probablya line somewhere that you have a
better handle on than I do ofyou know, like, we won't do that
, we won't like there's beenclients that in the past have
had hey, like the, and I'm likehands off, we're not, we're not
touching that, that, and I feellike there's some kind of
consumer issue too of misleadingpeople about a product if

(33:30):
you're leaving a bunch of.
So where is the line thatGoogle has and where's the line
of like if you're engaging thisbehavior, it could be against
the law at a certain thresholdtoo.
I would think it could beagainst the law at a certain
threshold too, I would think.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
So, yeah, no, it's, it's a.
It's a great point.
Now the I might broaden theconversation a little bit to
include all kind of likefraudulent activity.
So like, reviews is one part ofit, Fake listings is another
one, right Like where you'recreating lead gen type listings
where the business doesn't exist.
You're really just trying tocanvas the map to acquire leads,

(34:06):
and so both of those things arekind of like both looked at
internally from the trust andsafety organization.
There's a whole team in Googlethat is focused on this and in
the context of fraudulentlistings, there is some legal
implications to that and we haveactually partnered with the FBI

(34:26):
to take down.
I mean, it was a conspiracy ofkind of like coordinated effort
to kind of canvas a map withfake listings and then go in and
defraud people.
You know, I think that thelocksmiths are kind of like the
most famous user journey there,where you know it usually is

(34:46):
someone in a business that's ina duress vertical right like
address, meaning I'm locked outof my house in new york in the
snow and I need a locksmith now,right, it's like an immediate
need, and so they pull up theirphone, they go to google.
They get the closest locksmiththat has a great ad on their
business that says you know,like, hey, I'll be able to pick

(35:07):
your lock, it'll be $20 in 20minutes and it's like awesome,
that's exactly what I need.
But then when they show up,their script is usually
something like oh, you've gotlike a really great lock on your
system.
That's impossible to to pick.
Kudos to you for being sosecurity conscious, like and,
and they're like, so the onlyway that I have to do it is I

(35:28):
have to drill out the lock andthen put on and put on a new
lock instead, right, and so youknow, of course, that's complete
bs.
You know, like it could havebeen picked um by a real
locksmith.
Um, these guys just don't havethat skill set.
Um, internallyally at Google, Iused to call them dudes with
drills, right, because theywould just rock up, drill out
the lock and then sell you a newone for like 800 bucks.

(35:49):
Then they bought it at HomeDepot for 20 bucks, and so it's
just bad behavior, right.
And so for some types ofconspiracies like that, we
actually did get law enforcementinvolved to try and bring down
these large kind of like largescale.
You know, like organizationsthat are doing this at scale to

(36:12):
protect the consumer base as itpertains to reviews.
I haven't been personallyinvolved, nor do I know that we
actually involved in legalaction, but what we have done
and I haven't seen this rolloutagain in the United States, but

(36:33):
it has in Europe, where peopleget blocked from reviews, right,
so like, like, businesses willget blocked from reviews.
So the idea would be if you arepaying for reviews for your
platform or paying for negativereviews for your competitors and
Google detects that that'swhat's going on, they will lock
down your profile.
First of all, they'll removeall the reviews for violating

(36:55):
policy, so you don't get thebenefit of the reviews.
And then, secondly, they'll sayyour business profile is not
eligible to collect any reviewsfor 90 days right, and so it'll
lock you out for a period oftime.
Um and so in.
In the past, it was like I'mgoing to remove the reviews and

(37:15):
then just call it a day.
Now there's some repercussionsto it, and and so my advice to
um, to to businesses out therethat are that understand the
value of reviews and are perhapseven contemplating like hey, I
just need to get a jump start,let me just buy some reviews.
I'm like the the risk is notworth the reward, right?

(37:36):
I think that you can.
You can just as easily getlegitimate reviews into your
platform and the effort requiredto get those legitimate reviews
is not worth the damage that itwould cause if you get all your
reviews removed and thenflagged in the system where
you're blocked from collectingany reviews for for three months
or more.
Um, so I just if I was to lookat it and if I was to advise

(38:01):
clients on this, I'm like it's.
It's just not worth it.
You know, like I think thatthere's other places that you
can invest your time and moneythat is going to yield a better
response for you.
And you know Google is crackingdown on this because you know
that trust and safety team takeit personally.
You know, in fact, I waschatting to an engineer.
It was probably 10 years ago atthis point, but I was chatting

(38:24):
to him and he kind of had thisinteresting philosophy when it
came to fighting spam and hesaid that at the moment, you can
buy a fake listing, you can goout onto the internet and you
can say, all right, I want tobuy, I want you to verify my
business for me and I'm going topay for it and it's going to be
, you know, like 20 bucks perlisting to get it verified, and

(38:45):
then a couple months later thatsame company was charging a
hundred bucks, and then a couplemonths later it was 500 bucks
and the engineer's like that'sme doing a good job, right, like
, as the price goes up, thatmeans I'm doing something right,
because it's getting more andmore difficult to actually
commit this fraud.
Right, and so it was.
It was an interesting way thathe was kind of like judging his

(39:07):
own performance, and the marketrate of a fake listing was
actually one of his, one of hiscriteria for performance.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Okay, so I have so, um, so there's sun setting, um,
uh, google my business, uh, theFAQ section, uh, potentially,
and I would love for you to kindof talk about what the
intention was, how people areusing it, the benefit of that,
and then you know what mightlikely happen from that.

(39:37):
And then I would.
I would love to also talk aboutlike categories, cause I think
there's a lot of questions aboutokay, there's that main
category, but all those othercategories, how should you think
about that?

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yep, great, all right .
Well, let's start about the Q&Asection, right?
Also known as the FAQ section.
So it was created years ago toinfluence engagement.
This is actually anotherimportant piece of information
on the history of the evolutionof GBP, because the philosophy

(40:13):
at Google is that activity on alisting is a proxy for data
quality.
The whole philosophy was if youbuilt your GBP profile five
years ago and have never touchedit, google doesn't know if it's
still accurate, right?
So the data quality of thatlisting is a variable.

(40:33):
But if a business owner isgoing in there and they're doing
something in the profile once amonth, right, like that was the
measurement that we had.
We actually had a goal to getto 100 million 28-day active
users on the system.
Right, like that was themeasurement that we had.
We actually had a goal to getto 100 million 28-day active
users on the system.
Right Now.
That was a pretty big goalbecause I think at the time we
were at 10 million.
I think when I left we'reprobably closer to like 30

(40:54):
million.
They're probably a lot largerthan that now, but the objective
was get business owners usingtheir profile more frequently.
Once a month was the guide.
Right, because you knowactivity on the listing was a
proxy for data quality and wewere like, okay, if they're in
there looking at stuff, thenchances are they would fix any

(41:17):
issues that they identify whenthey're in there looking at
other stuff.
So you know, google built a lotof these engagement features
right, like they built GooglePosts.
They built, you know like, theability to reply to reviews.
You know like, and they builtthe Q&A section right, and
that's the FAQ, however you wantto refer to it, and I think

(41:39):
that the intent of that wasallow users to interact with the
profile right, so they can askquestions, the business owner
can reply to those questions.
And you know, this particularfield, too, had some rank
implication benefits to it right.
So, like you could kind of likedrop keywords in there, because
it was similar to that ofreviews, where it's kind of like

(42:00):
, you know it's it's interactionwith the consumer, with with an
end user, and that interactionwith a user has a certain amount
of weight to it in terms ofengagement and and your how
visible your company is being,with engaging with the, with the
general public, and so therewas some some inherent benefits
to that.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
So, brad, that is different, though, than posting,
because you're just pushing tothat.
So, brad, that is different,though, than posting, because
you're just pushing informationout.
So you're viewing interaction,like with the reviews and the
FAQs, different than posting.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
So I just want you to speak to that too.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
You're exactly right, and while reviews and Q&A did
have ranking benefits, postingdoes not, right, because posting
was designed to kind of it'smore of a conversion factor than
it is a ranking factor, right,and so like, once people find

(42:59):
your listing, having the postson your listing, it's visual in
nature, right, so, like you know, you put your imagery up there.
It's kind of like a mini blog,right?
So instead of having the blogsit on your website, you post it
there, and it's more aboutconversion.
It's like, once they find yourlisting, what information can

(43:19):
you give them that entices themto take the next step in that
action, to go to your website,to make a phone call, to
interact with your business?
And I think that's a reallyinteresting observation that you
had is that the motivation wasdifferent from posts from day
one, which is probably why ithas less implications from a

(43:40):
ranking perspective.
But the reviews in the Q&A ismore about consumer engagement.
I wasn't at Google when thedecision to sunset that feature
was made.
My guess, however, is thatGoogle is looking at the data
and they're saying there isn'tactually a lot of interaction

(44:02):
with consumers in the Q&Asection.
What it's mostly being used forand I'm guilty of this I
actually recommended this to alot of my clients is I'm the one
that write the questions andthen I write the answers.
Right, so it's I'm seedingquestions that I want consumers
to see and then I'm proactivelyanswering it.
And if Google is, if that, ifthat behavior is systemic, right

(44:25):
, like where every business outthere is is using it for the
same purpose, then it's notbeing used for the purpose that
by which it was designed.
Right, it's not.
It's not actually that level ofengagement.
So so there's there's that, andthere's also the um, a
potential argument where, uh,they just don't want to spend
engineering resourcesmaintaining it right, and it

(44:47):
comes down to a costconversation.
And so I have seen a lot offeatures turned off.
Business messaging is a goodexample of that, where that was
a feature that was that was usedheavily by by agencies.
It was turned off not becauseit wasn't used or wasn't
effective.
It was turned off because theythere was, they ran out of

(45:11):
resources to invest in theproduct and they had to
prioritize and they they wantedto sunset that feature so that
they could reinvest theresources into different areas
of the business.
So not a not a great answer foryou know, because it's a kind
of a silly reason to turn off apopular feature.
But that was the truth of it.
That was kind of like why thatwas sunset.

(45:32):
So I don't know if Q&A is beingsunset for resourcing purposes
or for usage purposes.
It's probably a combination ofthe two, to be honest.
They're probably looking at thefeatures and saying it's either
not being used or it's beingmisused.
It's potentially expensive froman engineering um perspective
to maintain we're just going tocut it what's the date on that

(45:52):
potentially?
I don't know.
I've been hearing that for awhile and I still see it.
Um, so it appears as thoughit's not a huge priority.
Uh, they haven't turned it off,and the news that the desire to
shut it down is also not new.
That's been around for a while.
So I don't have a date, butwhile it still exists, I'm still

(46:16):
going to use it because thereare still ranking implications
that can benefit your businessprotocol.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yeah, so let's go to the categories.
I do have a hard stop on thehalf hour, but also talk about
photos and the proper way to dophotos.
I want to make sure we coverthat.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Yeah, photos is another great example of user
engagement.
Actually, it's businessengagement, not user.
So it's a way to make sure thatyou're maintaining a good,
accurate profile.
And so you know.
Photos is another one of thosethings where you know the more
photos you have the better, butit's frequency versus volume is

(46:58):
the value, again similar to thatof reviews.
So what you should avoid doingis having a look at your
business profile being like, hey, I've got this.
You know, I've got an album of1,000 photos.
I'm just going to upload all1,000 of them at the same time.
That's not going to really giveyou much benefit.
What you really want to do isdrip those photos into your

(47:21):
system.
You know, every couple weeks,drop a new photo.
If you can have your customersinclude a photo in the review,
that's huge as well.

(47:42):
This would be a goodrecommendation for people who
are dealing with suspensions oranything like that.
Is that a lot of the photosthat you would typically use as
evidence in reinstating yourlisting, so photos of the
exterior of the building, theinterior, um, the, the signage
that you have right, like, um,the tools that you use
proactively.
Put that in your listing asphotos, right, because google
has that now at their fingertips, and it's more suspension

(48:05):
prevention than anything else,because now it already can see a
lot of the evidence that youwould need to use to unsuspend
it anyway.
So just be proactive and getthat into your profile and avoid
the potential headaches downthe road.
The other advice that I wouldgive you is that if you're
taking photos with your phonewhich almost everyone does these

(48:28):
days have the geolocationfeature turned on, right, so
like it drops the latitude andlongitude into the metadata of
the photo itself.
So when you're uploading thephoto, it's not just the content
of the photo that Google islooking at, it's the metadata.
So it knows oh, here is a photoof this plumber doing this

(48:49):
thing in this location, and sothe location.
Now that's going to help youfrom a ranking perspective in
the location of where the photowas taken.
Google has this internal system.
We refer to it as MUM.
It's a multi-list unified modelor something like that, and

(49:12):
it's a fancy word.
All it really means is Googlecan understand photos and read
and listen to videos.
So it's not just and this kindof comes back to your website
data as well right, it's notjust about the words you use,
it's about the videos and thephotos that you're using as well
, and so, just to make it easierfor Google, have your photos be

(49:35):
geocoded, and the higherquality you can give in a photo
the better, because it's easierfor the algorithm to interpret.
I was chatting to this onebusiness owner a couple weeks
ago and he said that he was ableto do a search for a restaurant
that has a full bar and he gota result that showed a

(50:00):
restaurant with a full bar but,similar to the review scenario,
there was no mention of a fullbar in the profile.
The only way that he inferredthat they got that is there was
a photo on their profile thathad a picture of the bar behind
them, and Google was able toinfer that they have a full bar
because of the photo that wascontributed.
So it's it's another example ofhow it's not just the words

(50:23):
that you use, but all of themultimedia assets as well is
going to be a really importantfactor.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
All right, so I have we don't have a lot of time here
.
I want to ask you one morequestion and then I have like a
dispelling something that youshared with me that I think
would be beneficial aboututilizing the website right,
like the little website functionthat got sunsetted and the

(50:48):
backstory on that.
Well, we don't have to spendtoo much time on that.
But I want you to spend sometime on the categories, like
just how to look at that,because there's a lot of
categories in there under yourmain category.
Then tell me a little bit onthe website sunsetting, because
I've been asked a lot.
I've heard a lot of differentthings and then one unknown

(51:11):
secret about internet marketing,and then we'll share your
information and get out of here.
But I want to make sure to talkabout the website.
That was sunset not for toolong, but I feel like that was a
big topic of debate with a lotof SEOs.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Yeah, it's a fun story too, so I'll all right,
I'm going to try and time boxthis, so apologies if I'm short,
so let's start with categories.
So categories I mentioned thisearlier probably the second most
important factor of rank afterthe name of the business, and I
would put that slightly abovereviews as number two.

(51:49):
It's just a critical way forGoogle to know the type of
service that you offer.
So when people do keywordsearches, it knows that this is
the type of business that wouldprovide that service.
So the primary category is themost important strategic thing
that you need to choose.
Secondary categories are alsoincredibly important.
The risk you run with secondarycategories, though, is that they

(52:12):
need to be related to theprimary category if they are
completely different, right?
So if you're like, I'll giveyou a positive example first.
So if you're a lawyer, the themain area of practice for you is
, uh, personal injury.
Right, there is a category forpersonal injury lawyer, but
there is also categories forlawyer and law firm and other

(52:35):
types of law like criminallawyer and things like that,
right?
So there's all these differenttypes.
The strategy would be go withthe primary area of focus that
you have, so go with personalinjury attorney is number one,
and then you can add on lawyer,law firm, family law,
immigration, all the otherthings that you may do, but
they're just not your primaryfocus.

(52:56):
The risk from adding secondarycategories is if you add
unrelated categories.
So if you're like personalinjury attorney and then you add
a secondary category of plumberor restaurants, right, that
works against you.
Google sees that as spammybehavior, and it's actually

(53:19):
going to.
It might suspend you or atleast kick you into
reverification, because it'sjust weird, right Like now.
It might be that you happen todo a restaurant as well as being
a lawyer, but it's unlikely,right, and so I think that, and
if that was the case, you'dprobably be better off creating
two listings for the separateprimary categories than you
would to have one of the primary.

(53:39):
So that would be my advice.
The other thing that I wouldtack on to categories, though,
in the interest of time, wouldbe there's a services section of
the GBP profile where it givesyou the opportunity, under each
of the categories that you'veselected, to go in and describe
the services that you performunder each of those categories.

(54:00):
You absolutely need to do that.
That is something that willimpact rank.
It's something, too, that youwould want to try and optimize
for the service and the location.
So if you've got multiplelocations, you want to kind of
drop in I'm a personal injuryattorney in Houston, texas.
Or if you've got a differentlisting in Austin, I'm a

(54:22):
personal injury attorney inAustin, texas.
Or if you've got a differentlisting in Austin, I'm a
personal injury attorney inAustin Texas.
You have to tweak it for eachone because that's going to have
a benefit from a rankperspective.
So I'll leave that there in thecontext of categories.
But obviously that's a topic wecould-.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
We just touched the surface on a number of these
items?
Yeah, for sure All right.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
So the next one is the websites feature.
A number of these items, yeahfor sure, all right.
So the next one is the websitesfeature, which is a fun story
for me to tell, becauseinternally we call this Presto,
so if I refer to it as Presto Iapologize.
But the concept was we weretrying to drive engagement in
developing markets right whenengagement was the main
motivating factor you know, wasthe main motivating factor and

(55:05):
so we were looking at India andBrazil and Indonesia and a bunch
of these companies and we'relike they're not using GBP.
And so we had people go outinto those markets and ask them,
like you know, hey, we want toget you up on, we want to create
a Google business profile foryou.
I think it was Google myBusiness at the time and their
response to us was we don't needto be on Google because we

(55:25):
don't have a website.
And we were trying to explainto them that you don't need a
website.
The business profile is yourbusiness representation on
Google.
You don't have to have awebsite to be on Google and
it'll just get you morecustomers.
And we were trying to set, butthe concept was just lost on
them, right, and they didn'tunderstand that they didn't need
to.
So the engineers just saidbugger it, we're going to go

(55:48):
ahead and create a website foryou.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
Now, was that a ranking factor?
Like how would you have viewedthat?
Because people are like if Ihave a website, do I create this
too?
Or like was it beneficial tonot do that?

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Like, what would you have recommended.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
If someone asked you that and that was-.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
So this is the interesting part of the story,
right?
So, like, the initialphilosophy of Presto was to
create websites in thesedeveloping markets for companies
that weren't online, and wewere trying to establish more of
Google as a source ofinformation where people would
go to kind of like understandwhere they could go and get
goods and services.

(56:26):
What we found is that when welaunched that feature, all these
other developed markets alsocreated these websites.
Right, and I think this iswhere it exactly is what you
were talking about, where theywere like hey, I know I already
have this website, but Google'stelling me to get another
website.
Let's just create anotherwebsite and that will help from

(56:46):
a ranking perspective.
Now, the truth of the matter isthat was not the way that it
was designed.
It was never designed toreplace your website.
It was really designed to bethe primary website for your
listing.
But the cool thing about it wasthat the engineers designed it
to be uber mobile friendly,because a lot of these

(57:10):
developing markets, the norm wasnot to use a desktop or a
laptop.
The norm was to use a mobiledevice, and so it was optimized
for mobile, and so this was also10 years or so ago where it was
like, okay, that was, you know,like a big trend and so a lot,
of, a lot of companies in the usand canada and developing
markets really kind of like,piled on to this.
Um, now, I don't, I this iswhere I don't know, I don't know

(57:31):
if that actually had positiveranking implications to it.
Um, I might my me.
I'm skeptical that it did.
Um, it may have unintentionally, because the team that built
the websites feature in GBP wasnot the team that was optimizing

(57:54):
search right.
They were doing it for acertain purpose and that purpose
was to increase engagement inthe developing markets.
It wasn't designed to improverank or to solve a problem in
these developed markets.
So that could have been areally interesting side effect
where, like it's like, hey, nowyou've got Google, has a website

(58:16):
that it's hosted on Google'splatform.
You know, like it's, you knowyou could argue it was a good
authority signal before AI evenexisted, or at least before AI
was a search feature at least.
But I think it was unintended, Idon't think it was by design.

(58:37):
Now, all of this is for naught,because that feature got sunset
and the reason why it was turnedoff is because the leadership
at the time was saying we've gotthis Google business profile
that we're really trying to turninto a page right, a business
profile page for a business.
But we also have this Prestosite, right Like this website
that we've created out of theGVP data, so it's a duplicate

(59:00):
right Like it's, you know whereit's redundant, information
being served in two differentways.
So they said, well, let's getrid of the the website, right,
the the presto site in favor ofgvp being the primary source of
information, um, and so I thinkthat's where it brings us to
today, where you know, and Ithink we're even seeing the
benefits of investing in GBP,because I personally see the

(59:25):
data in AI mode over indexingGBP data.
Right, I think that it's likeit's the I would argue, the
primary source of informationabout a business is being pulled
from GBP right now.
Now, will that persist forever?
Probably not.
Will that persist forever?
Probably not, but currently, ifyou were to experiment with AI
mode and look up differentsources of information, it pulls

(59:53):
in GBP data directly and itreferences a lot of the
information that is representedin the profile itself.
So, at least for right now,that should be a great
investment in ensuring that datais accurate and says what you
want it to say about yourbusiness.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
So in AI mode, GBT, G , uh, GDP is not going anywhere,
right, Like that is a a fixturethat that you need to focus on.
All right, Brad, we're, we're,we're, we're coming to the close
here.
I wanted to hear from you, fromyou out of kind of everything,
If we were to sum up, what isone unknown secret of internet

(01:00:27):
marketing as it relates to localSEO?
What would be the number onething?
You know, I?

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
don't know how much of it is unknown, but I think
that what's different today thancompared to internet marketing
from five years ago, even maybethree years ago is the
importance of brand mentionsversus links.
Right, and I think that the oldschool way of doing SEO is link

(01:00:53):
building and gettingconnections into other websites.
Because of AI and theinvestment in AI, google is
smart enough to they don't needthe link to draw the connection
anymore.
The brand mention is goodenough.
So going out and getting thename of your business and your
brand represented in otherauthoritative sources is going

(01:01:17):
to have an exponential return asAI continues to take over the
search landscape.
So that would be.
I don't know if it's a hugesecret, I hear a lot of people
talking about that, but I woulddouble down on it because it's,
you know, we.
We even heard Elizabeth Reed,who's the the the VP of search.
I actually worked with herdirectly and she used to be the

(01:01:39):
engineering director of GBP backin the day and she was the one
that was on stage at Google IOtalking about the evolution of
search and she used phrases likethis is the future of search.
And I know Liz and like shewouldn't use those words lightly
right and so like it'sdefinitely future-proofing your

(01:02:00):
business to invest in your brandmentions.
I don't know that I would quitegive up on backlinking and
linking yet, but it's phasingout and media mentions are
becoming the new backlinks.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
I love that.
Well, thank you so much, brad.
I have some ideas about reallygetting into the weeds on some
strategy, and there's a lot thatwe haven't covered, so I may
want to try to bring you back onagain, and we uh do have, uh
some mastermind workshops that Iwould love to get you involved
in as well.
Uh, what is the best way?
If someone like what they heardand they want to contact you

(01:02:32):
directly maybe they have alocation change or you know, uh,
something like that, that thatthey want to make sure it's
handled with finesse what's thebest way to get in touch with
you?

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Yeah, absolutely no, I appreciate that.
So so so I'm I'm I'm working indual capacity right now, so
obviously I'm doing a lot ofspeaking engagements and whatnot
, but I'm also working as the asthe chief operating officer for
a company called EsquireDigital.
This is there's the logo thereSquare Digital.

(01:03:04):
It's a company that focuses onsearch marketing essentially,
and I'd be happy to talk to you,take any consultations.
You can also find me onLinkedIn, just linkedincom slash
bradweatherall.
Reach out to me there and, yeah, I'd be happy.
I have a bunch of clients thathave very interesting challenges

(01:03:28):
.
So, thanks for having me again,mate, and yeah, feel free to
reach out if you're looking formore assistance.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Awesome.
Well, everybody, hopefully youenjoyed this.
Keep it up.
I know things are changing fast.
Reach out to EWR Digital ifyou're looking for more revenue
in your business.
Follow what I'm doing online.
The Mastermind Group is coming.
For all those that keep asking.
Until the next time, my name isMatt Bertram.
Bye-bye for now.

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