Alisha Conlin-Hurd shares powerful insights on creating effective marketing funnels using psychology, economics, and technology as the foundation for persuasive online marketing.
• Understanding that persuasion differs from manipulation when your product genuinely helps people
• Recognizing the five levels of awareness in marketing and how they affect customer decisions
• Approaching funnels as a series of micro conversions rather than one big knockout punch
• Creating landing pages that function as digital appointment setters with clear offers
• Using qualification systems to filter leads and improve sales conversion rates
• Ensuring your marketing message matches your platform (Facebook vs Google)
• Tracking ROI rather than just ROAS to include agency fees in performance metrics
• Focusing on qualified leads that convert rather than a high volume of unqualified leads
• Using thank you pages strategically to continue engagement rather than ending the conversation
• Avoiding over-complicating funnels with unnecessary steps or excessive technology
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The Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing podcast is a podcast hosted by Internet marketing expert Matthew Bertram. The show provides insights and advice on digital marketing, SEO, and online business.
Topics covered include keyword research, content optimization, link building, local SEO, and more. The show also features interviews with industry leaders and experts who share their experiences and tips.
Additionally, Matt shares his own experiences and strategies, as well as his own successes and failures, to help listeners learn from his experiences and apply the same principles to their businesses. The show is designed to help entrepreneurs and business owners become successful online and get the most out of their digital marketing efforts.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing,
your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Howdy.
Welcome back to anotherfun-filled episode of the
Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, matt Bertram.
I have a special episode foryou today.
I have Alicia frompersuasionexperiencecom on, who
has built tons of different kindof funnels, uses psychology to
manipulate, not manipulate,influence people to take action
(00:42):
and there's a lot of subtle cuesthat in this noisy world online
you have to use to get going.
So I want to just reallyquickly housekeeping.
We are going to be changing thename of the podcast shortly.
I will be doing a press releaseabout it.
I will be pushing out on allchannels, but we're going to
hard switch it over very shortly.
Podcast is growing up veryshortly.
(01:08):
Podcast is growing up, so Ihave to grow up with it.
No more schlick in every singlepodcast.
For those of you that have beenaround a long time, I used to
be a different person everyepisode and have a different
persona with Chris and I'vegrown up over the last 10 years.
So we're going to change it up.
I'm going to be talking to moreC-level executives on the
(01:32):
marketing side CROs I'm doing alot of that on the Oil Gas Sales
and Marketing Podcast for thoseof you listening over there.
But we will be switching thename over so, when you start to
look for it, just giving you aheads up there.
So, alicia, thanks for comingon the show.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Thank you for having me and congratulations on the
evolution of your podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
You know the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Everybody asked it, asking metoday if I'm like selling some
kind of like info product and Iproduct and um, I'm not uh, but
I should be um, and maybe we'lldo uh something with that name
because it's it's.
It's been around a long time.
We we actually recently changedthe name of our agency as well.
(02:14):
Uh, you know, we've been around26 years.
Uh, we were called E webresults, like with the E in
front of it, right, remember,everything was was internet.
You put the E in front of it,so we had to shorten it and we
did the KFC thing.
Right, the Kentucky friedchicken to the KFC.
We shortened it to EWR digital.
So, for those of you listening,we did change that a while ago,
(02:36):
but EWR digital if you can'tfind EWR results.
We've been around a long time.
We're trying to keep up withmodern marketing, which that
term is, in itself, right Abuzzword that's going to has
gone away.
I remember when marketing itwas like modern marketing, like
digital marketing.
It's called modern marketing,if you remember that.
(02:56):
So no thanks for coming on theshow.
I would love to just jump intomaybe some of the things that
you've seen from a psychologicalstandpoint, of those things
that you've seen from apsychological standpoint of
those triggers, uh, that thatwork, um, uh, what?
Uh.
There's been a couple of booksthat I've read about persuasion
that I absolutely love, um anduh, influence and I.
(03:19):
It's not pre-fluence, but it'slike, um, like, yeah, yeah, yeah
.
So I, you know, I and I, andI've read a lot of stuff about
it, but I would love to hear, uh, like, where your um experience
comes in from what you've seenin all the funnels that you've
built.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Awesome, cool.
And I'll touch on what you kindof said at the start, right, um
, where you kind of saidmanipulation and then and then
you corrected yourself.
But I often call it persuasion,right, and I think even just
one psychology thing for all ofus marketers is to think, okay,
does what I genuinely sell helppeople?
yes, or no, and and if it does,then I think you have a moral
(04:00):
and obligal like a moral, likeobligation to really get it into
as many hands as humanlypossible right, which means we
need to persuade people, becauseotherwise, if we think at just
like the highest level,otherwise everybody's just
working in inertia and if wedon't persuade them to take
action and like shake themdigitally to do something,
they're never going to doanything.
(04:20):
So that's like I think, just inin ourselves, that's something
that we have to flip.
It's like okay, I have to goout there and find as many
people as I can help everysingle day.
Now, when I think about that ata very high level again, when
people are doing their marketing, I think then they forget that
on the other side of theirlanding page or their ad or
their seo keywords is a realperson yes, absolutely,
(04:44):
absolutely A real person.
And it's so easy to forget,right, because you're looking at
sales numbers, conversionnumbers and it's like, okay, on
the other side of this is a realhuman being, and the number one
question that is on their mindis so what?
Who cares what's in it?
For me, right, that's thenumber one question, and so
there's a lot of coolpsychological hacks you can do,
(05:06):
but really, I actually thinkthat the number one thing that
has unlocked my marketing, andwhenever I teach it, is have you
ever read BreakthroughAdvertising?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I've heard about it, but I can't speak to it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Very, very good book, and within that book, he talks
about these five differentlevels of awareness, and so,
effectively, nobody wakes up oneday and wants what you have,
especially not us as agencyowners.
Right, like nobody's.
Like gee whiz, I'd love to hirean agency and I've never had a
bad experience with them.
Right, like everyone comes likewith context and trauma, and we
have to understand that.
(05:40):
So in this book, there's fivedifferent stages of awareness.
I'm just going to talk aboutthree at the moment, and the
first one of those three isproblem aware.
So they know that they have aproblem, but they haven't
started thinking about solutions.
So, for example, it might belike I have a cough, why do I
have a cough?
I'm problem aware, right,that's one kind of person that
we can talk to.
(06:00):
The next, then, is going to besolution aware.
Okay, okay, I have a cough,it's because I have pneumonia.
Should I go to a doctor?
Should I get cough drops, coughsyrup, whatever?
I'm starting to assessdifferent options.
And the third that we can focuson today is product aware.
Cool, I have a cough, it'spneumonia, I want to get cough
(06:20):
drops, and I'm looking at brandone, brand two, brand three.
Now, the thing with this is, andwhy this is important before we
dive into anything else morespecific psychologically is that
you need to understand whatconversation you're entering in
the prospect's mind or in themarket's mind and so I'll pause
my monologue there in a second.
(06:41):
But that's like to me one ofthe most powerful and simplest
things.
I think we all want to overcomplicate marketing and start
to add in these like recency,biases and the pratfall effect
and all this crazy stuff.
But really it's just if you cantake it back to basics and use
your empathy and like trulyunderstand the other person and
you can articulate theirproblems better than they can,
(07:03):
you can articulate their dreamoutcome.
That's can you can articulatetheir dream outcome.
That's like the only way you'regoing to be able to position
the business as a vehicle to gofrom A to B.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So the few things that I hear what you're saying
that make me think of is, likeI've always been taught, sales
is professionally helping peoplebuy, right, you're
professionally helping peoplebuy something, and it's very
hard, at least for me, to sellsomething I don't believe in,
right, you're professionallyhelping people buy something and
it's very hard, at least, forme, to sell something I don't
believe in, right, like you'vegot to know that this is going
to help somebody.
When you're talking about it andyou know, minus all the cool
(07:37):
psychology tricks that you cando with ad copy, the thing
that's worked best for me is tryto, like you said, understand
who's on the other side of itand get in that kind of mindset
where you're speaking to thatperson, like where you're having
that one-on-one dialogue, likewe're having um and and be like,
like, like, like you said, getin the prospect's mind or be
(07:59):
like the little birdie on thewall of like what they're
dealing with is so important,and I think this one-to
marketing is is what you'redoing on social media.
You're trying to have aconversation and then other
people are maybe coming into it.
The biggest thing that thatkeyed in what you said of like
how people are searching online,which we see this with SEO a
lot is the cycles that peopleare going in keywords when
(08:25):
they're searching right and sowhere are they at in the funnel
of what they're looking for.
And SEO can be used in additionto other strategies at all
levels of the funnel, but yougot to understand what you're
speaking to and where they're atof, like the acknowledgement of
the problem or the solution,and build copy and rankings at
(08:50):
each of those levels to getthose conversions.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So, yeah, exactly, and that helps you to understand
their education level, right,like that's all it is.
It's like, okay, well, whatconversation is going on in
their mind?
That means how educated arethey on what I do and how much
handholding needs to be done tomove them down.
So, for example, with funnels,I think a lot of people think
about funnels as these likeinternet marketer things that
(09:16):
Russell Brunson invented thatare totally optional, right, but
they're not like a funnel To me.
You have one by default.
It's just all of the touchpoints someone's going to have
with you, and then each of thesetouch points are a potential
revenue leak, right, and so itdoesn't matter if it's seo and
it's coming through seo trafficor it's coming through paid
traffic or it's coming throughorganic social traffic.
(09:37):
The whole part about thetraffic is it just gets the
click.
So your funnel is everythingthat happens post-click and it's
grossly neglected.
So then, going back to thosestages of awareness, once we
understand that, then we canstart to think about okay, our
funnel is just a series of microyeses and our offer is just the
(09:58):
next yes we want them to take.
So our offer is not this bigknockout punch, drag you back to
my cave and like force you toswipe your credit card to sell
right.
Each part of our funnel has apoint, it has an objective and
it's these micro yeses that weneed to craft out like an
experience to actually movesomebody along that journey.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
No, I love that.
One of the biggest things thatI've seen with a lot of
businesses when we look at it isthey're not doing even
retargeting.
Right, set up retargeting, youget them to your website.
I mean, overseas there areissues with privacy and stuff
like that, but pixel is targetedas a thing, a thing.
(10:41):
But but re, like, you're notgoing to close the deal.
Like you said on the first yes,right, you got to get the micro
yeses to get them into it,whether it's an email funnel,
text, a downloadable.
Like you, you got to buildthose steps because it might be
like a big ass to get them to gofrom point A to point B.
So you specialize in thesefunnels.
(11:02):
Like, what's the first stepthat you see lacking when you're
working with businesses?
Or you go to evaluate okay,here is the customer journey,
right, because a lot of peopledon't even know really what
their customer journey is.
I think it's really importantto know who are you targeting,
because each target persona isgoing to have a different
customer journey and is going toneed different things and have
(11:23):
different objections to movethrough that process.
Like, how do you like evaluatethat, map it out and what are
some of the biggest obstacles orthings that are missing when
you evaluate new clients?
Funnels.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
And so most people have never mapped out their
funnel and it's and it's notthat hard.
But I do remember the firsttime I saw a funnel map.
It was one of those infusionsoft ones and it made my brain
like leak out the side of my eara bit right.
I think funnel nerds, includingme, have totally over
complicated it.
Luckily for you and everyonelistening, I've done about 600
funnels in 120 niches since then, and so literally the whole way
(12:03):
that I think about a funnel iswhat I said before.
It's just those touch points,right, if they do this and then
this.
So it's just a series of touchpoints with decision diamonds if
yes, if no, and then that'sstrung together with landing
pages and automations.
But to keep it really reallysimple, and especially because I
have to use my mouth words toexplain funnels without any
(12:23):
diagrams, I'm going to keep itextremely simple.
We have traffic and thattraffic typically is going to
land on a landing page.
Now most people get really hyperfixated and they need lead
magnets and we need to do allthese lead magnets.
Yes, but why don't we getin-market leads first?
Why don't we get people lookingfor us and remember when I was
(12:44):
talking about before in thatsolution or product aware.
So we want to find the peoplewho are actually ready to take
that next step with us, and whatI specialize in is getting
qualified leads booked on a call, so I'm going to skew towards
that.
So, when we have our landingpage and that's one of three
main steps in this funnel I'mgoing to teach the reframe that
we have with this landing pageis that we think of it as a
(13:06):
digital appointment setter.
And already, when you stopthinking about it like a page
and you start thinking about itlike a digital appointment
setter, well, now you start tothink about what's the message
hierarchy, what's the one clearcall to action?
What is the social proof weneed to have on the page?
What is the language of thetarget market?
How do we make it feel likeit's one to one communication?
(13:27):
Because that's literally whatmarketing is right.
It's just salesmanship.
Well, it used to be called inprint, now it's in code, I guess
.
And that's that very first stepis this landing page, and I'm
happy to go deeper.
The most important part on thepage is the offer Right now.
The next part of that is okay.
(13:47):
Our digital sales person haseducated and it has excited
people and someone goes yes, Iwant to take up this offer.
I want to take the next stepwith you.
They click the button Now.
What a lot of people aremissing to your question before
is a qualification and adisqualification, because
everybody is obsessed withvolume of leads but, we don't
want leads, we want buyers,people, we want money in the
(14:10):
bank, right.
So when a lot of people come tome, they're very frustrated.
Usually their volume of leadsis low, but their quality of
leads is shit part of myaustralian so it's like very
shit.
They're very frustrated and wehave to send them through this
qualification system.
So what that looks like is wewant to have a series of
questions.
Now we will usually do this ina multi-step, maybe three to
(14:32):
seven questions, right.
And all we do is we say to thebusiness owner or to the sales
team hey, what makes a qualifiedlead, what makes a qualified
lead?
And then you just reverseengineer those questions there,
because probably for a lot ofpeople listening, if they're
marketers, I can imagine that abig contentious, head-butting
point in their business becauseI've worked with so many would
(14:54):
be marketing and sales.
Marketing feels like they'regetting it Sales whinges, and I
can say that because I've been asalesperson before.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
So, yeah, the other podcast that I co-host on that's
all we talk about is how salesand marketing work together and
how there is that contentionbetween a marketing qualified
lead and a sales qualified leadand really how it should be the
same funnel right.
And what I have seen personallyis, depending on the kind of
(15:25):
leads you're putting out, meansyour, your messaging you're
putting out is attracting thosekinds of leads.
Like it's like if you use thefishing analogy, you're putting
out the kind of bait of whatyou're attracting.
Does that make sense?
And so, if you're getting thewrong type of leads, something
in your messaging or what you'reputting out there, your offer
or whatever, is off because thewrong kind of people of what
(15:48):
defines wrong but like youdefine as what you're looking
for as your ideal prospect orwhatever, is not moving forward
or they're not moving forwardenough.
You got to kind of zero in onthat, targeting a little bit
more to get that.
And once you get that, I meanyou can get um, through content
marketing, through attractionmarketing, through persuasion
(16:11):
right.
You can get those people totake action.
Here's the crazy thing too.
Um, I've been doing a lot morestuff on, uh, social and, and I
need to get hard, hard onYouTube, because everybody's
moving to YouTube, right?
Like, not as many people arelistening to podcasts.
I mean, we have a lot of growthin the Asian markets, but not
as many people are listening topodcasts like they were Um, or
(16:35):
they want to listen to them onYouTube, I guess so, but what I
can tell you is I totally,totally forgot what I was going
to say.
So just keep going and I'll,I'll, I'll think of it in a
second.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Good, you can take back the talking stick whenever
you want and take that over, buteffectively with that funnel.
Then it's the landing page.
It's a digital appointmentcenter.
The most important thing isyour offer.
We have the qualification andthe booking system.
It's a digital appointmentcenter.
The most important thing isyour offer.
We have the qualification andthe booking system.
It's a series of form fields.
It gets marketing and sales onthe same page.
It shows we've delivered aqualified lead.
We have a calendar booking.
(17:07):
You'll usually have like 50 to80% of people book straight in.
That's another big thing thatpeople miss.
I'll have clients come to usand be like, yeah, so we get all
these leads filling in a form,but we can't get a hold of them.
I'm like why don't you givethem the option to book in?
And they're like ah, I was likeyeah, imagine if they were just
booking straight into yoursales team's calendar.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
So, alicia, what I've seen with like education
businesses or certain kinds ofbusinesses, you've got to get
the buyer when they'reimmediately in that mindset and
if you don't, it's hard to getthem again.
So, like leads for, like Dennisor something like that, they
sign up for stuff, maybe on aFacebook funnel or something
like that, and then they nevershow up.
(17:51):
They don't even remember theybooked.
We have to train the salesteams a lot to like you got to
call quickly, you got to followup quickly, especially even like
we were running some reallyheavy Yelp ads for a client and
you had the option to book onYelp Right, and it was, it was
awesome, but you had to respondwithin like two hours or you
(18:11):
couldn't get ahold of them.
And so what are some things thatyou can do to catch them?
Like I know, like text messagesopen a lot but, like it, when
somebody moves out of thatbuying phase, it's very hard to
get them again until they'reback in that buying phase.
So how do you speed up the sale?
Uh, potentially, or move themfurther through the process
(18:32):
faster, or catch them oncethey're off, and I'm also seeing
a lot of leads that are comingin which I have no idea why this
is happening, but like they'relike fake leads or something
like that, like just people arelike putting information in and
it's not like they're trying tosell you.
Like some people are doing thatlike where it's like a sales
book on appointment or whatever,but they're just like fake
(18:54):
people that are booking onsomething.
Maybe it I guess it'scompetition or I don't know what
, what.
I've just seen a lot of stuffbut I don't see it maybe at the
volume that you've seen it withthe funnels, and I'm just kind
of curious about um that, thatfirst interaction, I guess.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
And so part of that is, I'll call it like show up,
show up rates, like maybe that'slike how to get show up, show
up, how to get like you've gotthe lead, how to contact them,
and it's true.
Basically, what you're sayingis delay is death of the sale.
Right, like once we have thatmomentum, then we need to try
and keep it, and so the thirdpart that I'll share in a second
(19:31):
will help with that.
In terms of the calendar, it'sparticularly good for b2b,
because we're used to doingcalendars in our B2B lives and
in B2C we can see more of adecrease.
Basically, what needs to happenis that the sales team needs to
be calling within five minutesof the person filling in the
form, whether they book in ornot.
So what will happen is, in thefunnels we create, someone will
(19:54):
fill in a form, a certainpercent will book in the
calendar, doesn't matter.
The sales team should call both,either's like hey, matt, I saw
that you filled in the form butyou couldn't find a like a spot
to book.
Can I book you in blah, blah,blah?
Or it's hey, matt, I saw youjust booked in a call, just
wanted to touch base and sayhello, I actually just had a
sales call or like a strategysession cancel.
(20:15):
Would you like to go now andthen calling up with that
because you want to keep thatmomentum while they're hot?
So that's one of the many waysI can share.
What do you think of that?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
You know, one of the big things that I've seen with
funnels and I have a buddy.
I need to get on the podcast aswell.
That's just awesome at funnelshe has a whole call center right
.
Like, if you're doing funnelsright, it seems like you need to
bolt in that that follow-uppiece.
Maybe it's internal, maybe it'svirtual, but having somebody
(20:46):
that can follow up quickly, thatcan field calls, that can
manage the process.
Because if you're running a lotof ads, you're going to get a
lot of interest and you got tomanage that that whole process a
lot of interest and you got tomanage that that whole process.
And I feel like a lot of peoplethink marketing can do the job
of sales.
Does that make sense?
Like like they just think thatyou can run ads and just
(21:08):
magically people are going tobuy.
Um, and maybe some businesses,you can do that.
But if you talk about higherticket items, there's usually a
level of you know you go offline, you go back online, like you
look at some things, you'remaking decisions.
You're not just going to pullthe trigger out of the gate.
Either you're pulled thetrigger out of the gate
immediately or like it's 30 daysplus is what I've seen.
(21:31):
It's one or the other.
There's not a lot of people inthe middle.
I mean, have you seen that?
Do you think that there's aheavy need for the outreach
component or the sales componentor the appointment center piece
?
I don't know exactly how tostate it properly.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yes, number one.
This is why it comes back towhy it's important to understand
what stage of level ofawareness they're in so you can
create the right offer.
That's the right next microstep.
Basically, if you're having anissue with leads not answering
or leads not showing up, we haveto think why?
Why one like, why not?
Because they were like they,they did take some action.
(22:10):
So like why not?
Oftentimes it's time basedwe've lost that momentum now and
something some cat on theinternet has got their attention
and now it's all over.
But most oftentimes it'sbecause the offer is weak,
there's no value, there's noanticipation, there's no
(22:31):
excitement.
So like why?
Why would they show up and whywould they want to talk to you?
You haven't built any value andyou haven't built any authority
and you haven't built any frame, and I totally agree with you.
Um, I think a lot of businessesrely on marketing to solve a bad
business and to solve a poorsales process.
Right like, they thinkmarketing's a magic pill.
Marketing is a magnifying glassand if you have or it's like
(22:53):
rocket fuel, right like, if youhave a really good business and
I come and pour rocket fuel onit, it'll go off.
But if it's a dumpster fire andI come and do my marketing.
It'll just amplify those issues.
That's all that will happen.
So, coming back to like thelanding page, then we have this
qualification and this bookingand then to help with actually
converting the lead and gettingin contact with them, do you
(23:15):
need an appointment setter?
It depends.
A lot of the time, the funnelsthat we build make appointment
setters unnecessary, and that'seither because now AI chatbots,
are so advanced appointmentsetters should be very worried,
or because we're getting themdirectly booked in and then the
closer, like most closers, willhave time to call.
(23:38):
But it can depend on thebusiness and the volume of the
leads as well.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So, with all the AI stuff, I'm testing out all kinds
of stuff right, and they'regetting me on call, so I'm the
one, I'm the prospect, likegoing through the process and
it's.
It's actually good to seewhat's happening and I'm
actually disappointed because Ithink I'm going to talk to
somebody for a demo andsomeone's like qualifying my
business and they're asking melike 10 questions and I'm like I
(24:04):
just want a demo, like theyshould just actually have it on
the web.
Like remember the 1-800 numbersused to call 1-800 number, you
don't have to talk tosalesperson, you can just like
listen to it.
I was like they should give methe option to like just, if you
want to see a demo, watch thislink.
And if you want to talk tosomebody, here you go.
But they're getting me on thephone.
I'm anticipating getting to seethis tool.
(24:24):
And then they're asking me like20 questions and they're like
okay, well, we'll set you updown the road.
And I'm like I don't think thatthis step is necessary to to to
your point and it's just, it'sreally interesting to see, see
all these different fronts.
And I did think about what yousaid.
You were talking about momentumand I've been really studying
psychology a lot and I know I'mtaking this off script back to
(24:46):
psychology, but I wanted to addthis in this is what I
remembered On Facebook, on allthese different platforms, you
know how, like a big influencerthat has earned that authority
or that credibility, I guess,has posted just something like a
statement, a quote, and then,like it gets thousands of likes
and views.
Right, and I was like, why?
(25:07):
Why is that happening?
And why do like, if people areposting stuff on Facebook, no
one engages?
And it's what you said.
You said momentum like peoplewant to jump on the bandwagon
and get on that momentum, okay,and they feel like people
haven't.
Uh, I guess you know, they're,they're, they're bandwagoning on
(25:29):
the authority or whatever thevisibility like that's like like
the new strategy.
But did you know, only 1% ofpeople or maybe it's two, one or
2% of people on Facebookactually even engage with a post
like common and like.
And so I just finished thisbook.
Hold on here For those of youon YouTube which I'm not really
(25:51):
on I just finished this book andthis was a Russell Brunson, a
recommended book.
I went to one of hisconferences recently how to
unlock your subconscious mindthrough the science and middle
analysis by a couple of peoplewith the last name Benedict, and
it was like it was a reallygood book.
(26:11):
It was old school, you know.
He reads like books that werelike written 50 years ago but
still rings true.
It's kind of like getting backto the source, but I just
thought that was like superinteresting and everything we're
doing to bring it back to whatwe're talking about has a
component of psychology.
Uh, like you said, hey, theoffer might not have been strong
(26:32):
enough to get them to takeaction.
It got them interested, but themomentum stopped.
It did.
They didn't follow through orthere wasn't enough for them on
the other side to keep goingLike where?
So let's go, I guess, to leakyfunnels, right, like you've
heard that term a lot and Ithink that it doesn't get enough
(26:53):
credit.
Like you have a funnel, like,fix the broken funnel, don't go
just build another one and throwthe baby out with the bathwater
and that's a noun we use herein the US, but not all the time,
but that's what I see.
And my business partner sells abunch of supplements, okay, and
(27:14):
we do a bunch of supplementstuff and he goes to all these
affiliate conferences and wetalked to a lot of these people.
And a break even funnel Nowwe're not talking B2B, but like
a break even funnel, uh, or aself liquidating funnel where
you can spend the ads and keepthem going for free and then
your offer upsells.
Is that something that that isstandard?
(27:36):
Or is that something that mightjust be standard?
And affiliate marketing?
Or like how standard inaffiliate marketing?
Or like how are you seeing that?
And like how do you identify abroken funnel?
Like analytic wise, and thenwhat are you doing to fix that?
I guess?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yes, so with a self liquidating funnel you can do
them technically in leadgeneration and you could be
running so, for example, for myagency.
In the future I would plan tomaybe do a self-liquidating
funnel on landing page templates.
Right, and I might sell thelanding page templates for nine
(28:10):
dollars, whatever that like,with an upsell that covers the
cost to acquire a customer.
But then where most peopleforget is that the money like
cool, you can break evenself-liquidating, but you need
to have ascension.
It's like russell brunson 101,or like j abraham dan kennedy
101, right, it's like what isthe high ticket in the back end?
(28:33):
And so when we're doing ourlead generation with our clients
that's what I was talking aboutbefore like let's just find
those in-market leads, let'sclear the room on that, and then
self-liquidating is just isjust going to be going after
somebody that's further back intheir journey and you can do
that because then you bring themonto your list, your earned
(28:53):
media, and you take them alsoyour owned media, and you take
them off of like earned or paidmedia and you can bring them in
and then in terms of leakybuckets in the funnel, that's
just every touch point, right?
So, going back to that likebasic funnel that I was
outlining before, the landingpage, the qualification system,
and then one part was the thankyou page, and with the thank you
(29:16):
page, what you never want to dois say thank you, right,
because this is another touch todo is say thank you right,
because this is another touchpoint in our funnel where we can
pre-swave them and educate themand get them to show up.
So usually what you want to dois congratulate them Like
congratulations, matt, you'reone step closer to achieving the
dream outcome.
Tell them the next steps.
Here's what happens next Go toyour inbox, find this email,
(29:36):
confirm this calendar link,whatever and then you want to
get them to take the next action, because whenever they've just
done an action is the best timeto get them to do another action
, and one of the biggest thingsI would usually get them to do
is to start consumingtestimonials, right, testimonial
videos, while you've got themdoing stuff watching that.
So that's another touch point.
(29:57):
And then there's automations,but basically with your funnel,
once you map out these touchpoints, when you talk about
leaky buckets, the next logicalthing we might talk about is cro
right, conversion rateoptimization, because that's the
whole thing.
You'd find the leak.
You find like you want toidentify the right part of the
funnel that has the leak andthen you start the
(30:17):
implementation process to stopit losing you money.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I love that.
I think you have some greatcase studies and I would love to
maybe share some of theindustries you work in, maybe
some of the case studies, sopeople can understand.
And you talked abouttestimonials, right, like what
you've been able to do for someof these companies and how
that's transformed theirbusiness.
Because I think that at leastpeople I talk to today that get
(30:49):
on our calendar have like webriefly touched on before a lot
of past experience that theybring into of working with
another agency, of what theythink works, what they think
doesn't.
You know, I'm getting a lot ofquestions of like, can you
(31:09):
handle our business?
Because I guess a lot ofagencies well, there's a lot of
need out there for what we dowork with the client, get
involved in a process and thenthey become a number, right.
Or I've even seen some agenciesthat have like even see people
in the local area have like 80something accounts on the paid
(31:29):
ad side to the account managerand it's like you can't even
manage, like there's no way anaccount manager or a PPC manager
could manage that many accountseffectively, right, and so then
they're just managing based onmetrics.
Like it's really about, I think, building that process, setting
up those automations, likepersonalizing it, leveraging all
(31:53):
the tools that we haveavailable today to have a great
funnel and after that funnelstarts working, that funnel's an
asset and it works and it's notthe human component of managing
.
And I love what you said aboutthe marketing of like basically
putting up the shingle.
People are going to find outreally quickly if you're good or
not, and I look at people'smarketing and it helps me to
(32:17):
decide how good their process is.
Right, um, uh, and I know a lotof businesses don't do don't
drink their own Kool-Aid as much, right, but but I, I think that
, um, it's almost like abusiness card.
And, uh, you have some greatcase studies on your site.
Uh, persuasion experiencecom.
Uh, I would love for you tojust kind of share some of the
(32:39):
experiences that might rhymewith what other people might be
dealing with today.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Awesome, and so predominantly what we deal with
or what we specialize in at ouragency is paid ads right, but
profitably scaling paid ads andseeing an actual ROI, and so
there's some things, and I'lltalk about those case studies in
a second, but there's a coupleof things that are important
here.
Number one is tracking ROI andnot ROAS.
(33:05):
So return on investment and notreturn on ad spend.
Why?
Because ROI includes theagency's fee.
So these are just.
I've been working in agenciesfor 10 years, so anyone that's
like a bit unsure about theiragency, I'll give you a couple
of hints.
That's one thing.
The other thing is we make surethat we're not optimizing just
for CPL and volume of leads, sonot just for cost per lead.
(33:27):
Why?
Because cost per lead does notaffect the P&L, the profit and
loss.
So what we're actually trackingdown to is what ads turn into a
buyer or, if they have a longerlead to sales cycle, a
qualified lead, because then youfeed that data back into the ad
platform and tell the adplatform to find more of those.
(33:48):
And what I see a lot of peoplegetting wrong on their ads when
they come from other agencies isthe agency like yeah, look how
many leads we're getting.
You Like we're so awesome andit's a $6 CPL and the client's
like, yeah, but they don't turninto sales, like they're crap
and so going into, maybe thefirst case study I can share.
This is for a client.
(34:08):
Um, they work in in the ndispace, ndis space in australia,
so we work a lot of us andaustralian based clients.
But basically what this clientdoes with the ndis it's a
disability support program andit helps kids to find PTs across
Australia and get matched witha PT so they can keep their
health and fitness up.
And now when that client cameto us, they were originally
(34:29):
using lead form ads on Facebook,which I hate with all of my
heart and I think are the worstthings ever invented.
I've got a video on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
No, I want you to, I want you to fully vent on that
one.
I would love to go a little bit.
Do we have a few hours?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
yeah, um so so, basically, with instant forms,
lead formats, whatever you wantto call them, you will get a
larger volume of leads.
But that's not the game we'replaying, right, we're trying to
get qualified leads that turninto buyers, and so with that,
because there is no friction,you'll just get a flood of
shitty leads who might take upyour count, like your sales
(35:06):
calendars time, and never showup to the call.
When they do talk to you, theyhave no idea who you are or what
you're talking about, andthat's like what we're trying to
avoid, right.
So with this client, weimplemented that system I was
talking to you about before along form landing page like the
longest you've probably everseen, because it's a digital
sales person.
We're not going to limit theamount of text because some
(35:27):
designers complaining aboutthere's too much text to design
for right, like that's not it.
Strong offer, long copy.
We have a qualification systemand we have a good thank you
page with the automations.
Now, funnily enough, we did notdecrease that client cpl.
We slightly increased it, butwho cares?
Because we're tracking throughto roi and we dramatically
(35:48):
increased the roi.
Now, another thing with thatclient was and this is why it's
important to like actuallyunderstand lead generation and
sales.
Is that because we're alsotracking lead to sales time?
So they lead to sales timebecause they used to be
uneducated prospects, right,because the marketing wasn't
doing any of the education.
So that means that it wastaking 30 days to close a client
(36:12):
for them.
With our system it was takingtwo days.
Two days, so a slightly highercpl, which most businesses would
freak out about.
That.
That's because they're notpainting a full picture so
that's, that's one, one example.
And then, obviously, like wecould like profit, and then,
because we built the economicswith the scale, we could
profitably scale those ads.
(36:32):
So most people who come to usmaybe they haven't started ads,
but most of them are capping outthey can't figure out how to
actually scale their ads andit's because they're missing
this post-click experience.
Maybe they're usually nottesting enough ads as well, like
nowhere near enough, but thispost-click experience is not
dialed in.
So that's one case study.
Before I launch into my nextrampage, I'll pause there in
(36:56):
case you want to.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
No, I love it.
Keep going.
This is great.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Keep going there, in case you know, I love it.
Like, keep going, this is great, keep going.
Okay, that's one.
What's another one?
Um, another one is for a hairtransplant doctor.
Um, again, this was facebook adsand another agency was running
their ads and so when they cameto us like yeah, all of the
metrics, like we did decreasecpl, we did scale their account,
like all of that good stuff,obviously you can go read it,
but I just want to teach peoplewhat I think is the most
(37:20):
valuable takeaways, because whenI looked at this account back
when I was doing the sales, Icould tell straight away it
wouldn't be working.
And it just goes back to what Iwas talking about earlier.
Why?
Because they were on a coldplatform going out with ads that
said, hey, get a hairtransplant for $10,000 or
whatever it is.
Now, why doesn't that work?
(37:42):
Because the people on Facebookare not product aware.
They don't know they need ahair transplant yet, right.
What they do know is thatthey're starting to lose their
hair and it's embarrassing andthey hate it and they want to
figure out how to regain anatural looking head of hair.
That's the words of the targetmarket.
So it just doesn't make senseon facebook to go out and try
and get that, and what theclient was experiencing was
(38:03):
crappy leads who don't show upand don't close yeah, no shit,
because they're not ready forthat yet.
It wasn't the right next microstep.
So instead, what we did is welaunched an offer, and it was
something around like save myhair consultation and treatment
plan.
Why?
Because the purpose, likeeverything, has a purpose.
The purpose of the sales call,the sales process, was to
diagnose and prescribe, and sowhat that meant was he could
(38:26):
actually show them yeah, here'syour problems, here's what you
need.
Blah, blah, blah.
Now, not everybody actuallyneeded a hair transplant.
Some people could do medicationand like laser and different
things, whatever right, and soit actually gave him more of an
opportunity to increase ourincrease our number of different
types of customers as well,instead of just trying to shoot
(38:47):
fish in the barrel.
Whereas on Google ads we wouldnot run that offer, we run a
direct to hair transplant offer.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
So you have different landing pages, like where you
run like a VSL, like from theFacebook, to kind of bring them
up to the point that theyrealize that the solution is the
hair transplant, and then onthe ads, people are already
searching for it so you can likeskip a step or like what did
the funnel look like?
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I guess, exactly exactly what I said earlier.
And this client is beautiful oncamera.
Not every client is great oncamera, so don't put them on
camera.
And we use a lot of AI avatarsnow, but this client is great on
camera, and especially becausehe's a doctor, so it's like you
want to build that authority.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Video ads.
Long-form landing page.
Strong offer build strongauthority follows our system in
terms of the hierarchy ofmessaging.
Multi-step questions, likemaybe five, seven questions.
Multi-step questions, a form, acalendar booking, his team call
because this is medical,medical, you got to call
(39:53):
straight away.
On ghl.
You can do a forced I thinkit's called like a forced
outbound, like whisper call orsomething.
So if I fill in my details thenmy admin front desk can get a
whisper call to connect me tothat lead.
That's very important to do.
And then the sales process.
So that was, that was literally.
That was literally it.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
So, but did you?
I guess what I'm asking is onthe AdWords campaign, were you
running that to the same landingpage?
A different landing page,different landing page, yeah,
and then were you were justtrying to close them from
Facebook.
On the long form sales letter,you weren't moving them to the
(40:34):
next page.
So like those were separatefunnels for different stages, it
wasn't like one big funnel andthey fed into it.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Is, I guess, what I'm asking Two different, two
different funnels, but the salesmechanism for both is a is a is
a consultation with the clinic,right?
So in like different landingpages, slightly some of the same
information, but predominantlythe above the fold before you
start to scroll, especially onGoogle ads.
(41:03):
It's such a blessing on Googleads and SEO because you
understand the searcher intent,like, whereas on Facebook ads
you've got to try and figure itout a little bit more and you
can put the keywords in andstuff.
So, different landing pages,same booking system.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, all going to the book.
All going to the book.
The call Right and okay.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Got it Exactly Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Very cool, very cool.
I like, I like that that's goodfunnel yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Anything else.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
I want more funnels.
I love this.
I want to.
I think we're adding value topeople.
I think there's a lot of peoplelistening that.
I think that they think funnelsare too complex Right.
And I would actually love tohear from you just to be to to
have fun.
I can share one that I'mstruggling with right now
because but complex funnels,right, like, the simpler you can
(41:56):
get, the less of the process.
Now I've seen with forms, okay,I've seen literally I don't
know what the data is.
I think it's like almost like10%.
Every time you ask anadditional field, like even if
it's like first name and thenlast name, you lose a number of
people that are going to fillthat out.
I've seen that exactcorrelation with adding those
(42:18):
fields.
So if you're trying to get thatreally highly qualified lead,
you add those to kind of selffilter out or have people self
filter out what they're doing.
I'm dealing with this crazyfunnel where, like I know it's,
I've heard that it's possiblebut I personally don't know how
to do it Track a UTMB code froman ad to a page that then pushes
(42:42):
them to another website.
Like I'm losing the UTMBtracking from that website to
the next website and then fromthat website they're uh,
self-selecting on that websiteand then it goes into come some
kind of backend database.
So there's like three steps tothis funnel and so I had to get
all the different stakeholders.
This was like yesterday I hadto get all the stakeholders on
(43:03):
the call and I was like, can welike skip this step?
But if we skip that step, canwe get a page like when you're
running a franchise, stuff,right?
So I'm like, can we get a pagethat we can control and put some
pixels on this page with the,the national vendor, and and
they're like, oh well, we got toask somebody for permission to
(43:26):
do that.
And then I'm like, can wereplicate this page and like
push the values through, becausethey're like we're going to
build out all these other pagesof how there's and it's.
I'm like, how are we going totrack, like you know, the like
the lifetime value of thiscustomer or like if their
customer even closed, likethat's what we're like trying to
get to.
And so I love the fact that,like you're simplifying it, but
(43:49):
I think people try to get toocomplex and it always, for me,
it's like how can we simplifythis?
How can we like streamline theprocess?
How can we get the data down towhere we're looking at fewer
data points and then you canslowly add stuff but, don't
don't start with like somethingcrazy.
And I think people are trying tobuild funnels that are trying
(44:10):
to, you know, watch a RussellBrunson thing or whatever, and
they're trying to build it outof the gate like a massive
InfoSoft right, like whateverfunnel with all the different
hookups.
And I know you do go high leveltoo.
I would love for you to speakto that.
I think there's a lot of people.
I think that's pretty hot rightnow and it for a while it was
(44:31):
very hard because the the theinformation on how to use it
there wasn't like good manualsand stuff.
Like I think people have come along way and there's people you
can follow, and then you knowthere's even agencies out there
that like help you do that.
But like go high level in thebeginning, if you didn't know
how to build a funnel and youdidn't know like a little bit of
programming, like good luck.
You know what I mean.
(44:52):
I would love for you to kind ofspeak to what you've done with
go high level and maybe justshare for fun what's like the
most complex funnel you everworked on and I would love to
like just hear that and then wecan.
I know we're getting close totime to wrap up, but I would
just love to hear that just forfun.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yes, okay, awesome.
And to build on your point,it's just start minimum viable,
right, because you don't know.
You don't know until you getthe data data.
Just keep it minimum viablewith every funnel and it's.
It's so funny you brought thatup.
I just did a talk in um sandiego at, if you know, like
michael stelzner, his socialmedia marketing world and this
(45:32):
was like the whole flavor flaveof the presentation was about
over complicating your funnel.
And then, like you learnsomething here and you read a
tallard brown book and and youread a Russell Brunson book, and
you read this and you read that, and then you like Frankenstein
, this awful funnel creaturethat you can no longer control,
right, like that's what we'reall doing, and I've done it so
(45:52):
many times where I like likehave to facepalm myself every
time because I've justovercomplicated this funnel and
it's like just keep it minimumviable.
And so that's the first part.
The second part, um, as yousaid about go high level, yes,
so our story with go high levelwas we were originally using
well, I've used like everylanding page builder, right,
(46:14):
like I've seen some shit I'vebeen traumatized.
I've had some trauma and we wereusing Unbounce and one day we
got an email from Unbouncesaying, hey, your price is going
to go up from hundreds ofdollars a month to thousands of
dollars a month.
And I don't know who had thesmart idea at Unbounce on
(46:36):
pricing.
But we were like, see you later, I don't't think so, and so we
had a couple of other agencyowners showing us what they were
doing inside of go high level.
So number one, it was price.
I think we pay like 300 bucks amonth as an agency and I think
for non-agencies like 97 a month, number one.
Number two was we had this hugetech stack right, calendly, um,
(47:00):
calendly, like you know, activecampaign, whatever, all of these
different like tech stacks thatwe had to log in and log out to
, and so just the productivityand the efficiency wastage of my
team.
I can't remember the stats, butI think it's like I can't
remember it's 32 hours or 32days a year or something
freaking crazy per person bylike losing like an hour a day
(47:20):
by all of this like productivitywastage, right, and I was like,
well, that seems like somethingas a ceo I should care about.
So that's another thing andthen all of the pricing slashed
on that.
Um, so it's like an all-in-onetool and also the thing like as
like an alternative maybe beingclick funnels.
I just think, aesthetically,click funnels always has that
(47:41):
you can tell like it's got aclick funnel it's a fun.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
It's a funnel, like you know.
You're in a funnel now, right,like you know, you're in a
funnel, yeah and it just looks,just looks click funnily and
there's nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
There's people making freaking millions and millions
and millions and dollars.
They work, but for the brandswe work with they can't look
like internet marketers knowwhat I mean.
So it's like we had to be ableto to get that going and so,
yeah, that's kind of our journeywith Go High Level.
And then it's somewhat simplelike you create these snapshots
and my team's going to listen tothis and they're going to like
(48:12):
ha ha, leisha doesn't do thetech set up.
So I've got to say my team'sinfinitely smarter than me and
they get in and do all of this.
But I know that the customersupport on Go high level is next
level.
Probably, maybe at the start,maybe it wasn't, but my team
literally are getting on callswith them all of the time.
Yeah, they've come a long way.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Problems and stuff with them and they've come a
very, very long way.
Yeah, no, I think that I wasrunning into with ClickFunnels.
With clients.
There's basically like withbigger clients.
They look at different metricsof what they can use in their
tech stack and I don't know ifthis is the case right now,
because we're not usingClickFunnels currently, but it
(48:57):
hadn't been updated in like twoor three years.
Like the software and from asecurity standpoint, a lot of
clients were like no, no, no,and you're right, like there was
like a lot more moving giftsand you feel like you're in a
funnel and I think people seethat now.
I think there was an air ofnovelty to it in the beginning
(49:19):
and I feel like, yeah, like theinternet's evolved and the
brands have evolved and go highlevel is kind of taken over as
the market leader and in thatspace, and that's what I see
everybody using today and and II think that their, their, their
tech supports come a ton, theycome a long way.
Okay, so I know we're gettingclose to time here.
(49:41):
I wanted to ask you and youmight've already shared it, but
like in kind of a short formatcould you share with me what you
feel one of the biggest unknownsecrets of internet marketing
is Good question.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I think that it's not that it's unknown, it's lost,
right, and I think that peopleare trying to over complicate
marketing and they're alwaystrying to find this shiny new
hack, and I think ai andtechnology is a huge part of
this.
But the way that I think abouthiring marketers or marketing
skill set or marketing is thisequation psychology plus
(50:22):
economics times technology,right, technology is a
multiplier and so 1000 timeszero is still zero.
And I think if you're amarketer and you want to truly
become world craft like, worldclass and the best at your craft
, you should be learningpsychology and understanding how
humans think, because thathasn't changed for hundreds of
(50:42):
years and it won't change forhundreds more, whereas these
tech platforms, the media,whatever, like it changes all of
the time, right, but a masterylike a true mastery, like I'm
talking old school david ogilvy,gary halbert, like true mastery
of of the human brain and andhow we tick.
So I don't think it's likeunknown, I just think it's fast
(51:03):
forgotten for these shiny AItools and tactics.
But yeah, they kind ofaccelerate everything else.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
No, I love that and that's what I feel too.
I go back to the book that Ijust finished reading, literally
last night.
I try to get those old schoollike uh, um, advertising and
marketing books, like directselling, like some of these
really old books, because I feellike today people have taken
(51:31):
that concept and then they've,like incorporated into what
they're saying and they've maybechanged it or, let's not say,
watered it down, but it's beenreplicated so many times that
you're playing the game oftelephone and you're losing like
the core sense.
So every time I go back, I meanpeople are still people and you
(51:52):
just need to go back to whatare the things that make people
tick and understand.
There's, like you said at thebeginning of the podcast,
there's some human on the otherside reading it and you have to
remember that process.
And the first thing that I evenshow clients, I'm like have you
gone through your own funnel?
(52:12):
Have you gone through your ownfunnel?
And like it's shocking to mehow many people are spending all
kinds of money and they'venever really gone through it as
a customer themselves and youcan fix a ton of problems and so
, um, so yeah, simplify,simplify, simplify, um.
How do people get in touch withyou if they want to hear more?
(52:33):
I uh, I would love to get alink also to your talk at social
media marketing world.
I know there's a bunch of mybuddies there and I couldn't
make it.
I, I, I have young kids and Ican only go to so many
conferences.
I'm going to another SEOconference in like two weeks,
cause just everything's movingso fast.
I'll probably be there, but Iwould.
I think you shared a ton ofgreat stuff, so what's the best
(52:58):
place for people to find you?
I know you said you're uh,really big on youtube as well,
so oh, I'm not really big.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
I do okay, um, but I everything, everything.
Everything is on my youtube.
So under alicia conlon heardeasy name to spell.
You guys just sounded out, um,I'm sure it'll go into the show
notes, but I like more of thosecase studies.
Like I just give it all awayfor free.
I'm very, very passionate aboutkeeping them the magic alive in
marketing and and and helpingpeople and and I really love
(53:27):
teaching and showing people and,if anybody is interested in
starting with, go high level.
I am an affiliate with them.
So if you want to sign upthrough my link, I don't get.
I get paid some money whatever.
No, no extra to you.
However, because I'm verypassionate about giving the best
offer out there as part ofsigning up through that link.
I don't get.
I get paid some money whatever.
No, no extra to you.
However, because I'm verypassionate about giving the best
offer out there as part ofsigning up through that link.
We do have three of our builtlanding page templates in there,
(53:48):
like fully built, ready to go.
You can just like fill them inand build them.
So if anybody wants that andthey actually want to try, go
high level, because I think it'sa freaking awesome platform.
Just go to gohighlevelcomforward, slash alicia hyphen,
conlon hyphen heard, and you cangrab my my templates in there
in a 30-day trial awesome.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Well, alicia, great having you on.
What time is it over there?
It looks like it's dark, um, soI know you're on the other side
of the world yeah, so I live inbali, in indones, indonesia,
and now it is 12.04 am.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
Hopefully, my brain wasn't a potato.
Speaker 2 (54:27):
It was a great conversation.
I enjoyed it.
I'm sure everybody enjoyed itas well.
So thank you so much for comingon.
Until the next time, I am MattBertram.
Bye-bye for now, bye-bye,bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-.
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing,
your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Howdy.
Welcome back to anotherfun-filled episode of the
Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, matt Bertram.
I have a special episode foryou today.
I have Alicia frompersuasionexperiencecom on, who
has built tons of different kindof funnels, uses psychology to
manipulate, not manipulate,influence people to take action
(00:42):
and there's a lot of subtle cuesthat in this noisy world online
you have to use to get going.
So I want to just reallyquickly housekeeping.
We are going to be changing thename of the podcast shortly.
I will be doing a press releaseabout it.
I will be pushing out on allchannels, but we're going to
hard switch it over very shortly.
Podcast is growing up veryshortly.
(01:08):
Podcast is growing up, so Ihave to grow up with it.
No more schlick in every singlepodcast.
For those of you that have beenaround a long time, I used to
be a different person everyepisode and have a different
persona with Chris and I'vegrown up over the last 10 years.
So we're going to change it up.
I'm going to be talking to moreC-level executives on the
(01:32):
marketing side CROs I'm doing alot of that on the Oil Gas Sales
and Marketing Podcast for thoseof you listening over there.
But we will be switching thename over so, when you start to
look for it, just giving you aheads up there.
So, alicia, thanks for comingon the show.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Thank you for having me and congratulations on the
evolution of your podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
You know the unknown secrets of internet marketing.
Everybody asked it, asking metoday if I'm like selling some
kind of like info product and Iproduct and um, I'm not uh, but
I should be um, and maybe we'lldo uh something with that name
because it's it's.
It's been around a long time.
We we actually recently changedthe name of our agency as well.
(02:14):
Uh, you know, we've been around26 years.
Uh, we were called E webresults, like with the E in
front of it, right, remember,everything was was internet.
You put the E in front of it,so we had to shorten it and we
did the KFC thing.
Right, the Kentucky friedchicken to the KFC.
We shortened it to EWR digital.
So, for those of you listening,we did change that a while ago,
(02:36):
but EWR digital if you can'tfind EWR results.
We've been around a long time.
We're trying to keep up withmodern marketing, which that
term is, in itself, right Abuzzword that's going to has
gone away.
I remember when marketing itwas like modern marketing, like
digital marketing.
It's called modern marketing,if you remember that.
(02:56):
So no thanks for coming on theshow.
I would love to just jump intomaybe some of the things that
you've seen from a psychologicalstandpoint, of those things
that you've seen from apsychological standpoint of
those triggers, uh, that thatwork, um, uh, what?
Uh.
There's been a couple of booksthat I've read about persuasion
that I absolutely love, um anduh, influence and I.
(03:19):
It's not pre-fluence, but it'slike, um, like, yeah, yeah, yeah
.
So I, you know, I and I, andI've read a lot of stuff about
it, but I would love to hear, uh, like, where your um experience
comes in from what you've seenin all the funnels that you've
built.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Awesome, cool.
And I'll touch on what you kindof said at the start, right, um
, where you kind of saidmanipulation and then and then
you corrected yourself.
But I often call it persuasion,right, and I think even just
one psychology thing for all ofus marketers is to think, okay,
does what I genuinely sell helppeople?
yes, or no, and and if it does,then I think you have a moral
(04:00):
and obligal like a moral, likeobligation to really get it into
as many hands as humanlypossible right, which means we
need to persuade people, becauseotherwise, if we think at just
like the highest level,otherwise everybody's just
working in inertia and if wedon't persuade them to take
action and like shake themdigitally to do something,
they're never going to doanything.
(04:20):
So that's like I think, just inin ourselves, that's something
that we have to flip.
It's like okay, I have to goout there and find as many
people as I can help everysingle day.
Now, when I think about that ata very high level again, when
people are doing their marketing, I think then they forget that
on the other side of theirlanding page or their ad or
their seo keywords is a realperson yes, absolutely,
(04:44):
absolutely A real person.
And it's so easy to forget,right, because you're looking at
sales numbers, conversionnumbers and it's like, okay, on
the other side of this is a realhuman being, and the number one
question that is on their mindis so what?
Who cares what's in it?
For me, right, that's thenumber one question, and so
there's a lot of coolpsychological hacks you can do,
(05:06):
but really, I actually thinkthat the number one thing that
has unlocked my marketing, andwhenever I teach it, is have you
ever read BreakthroughAdvertising?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I've heard about it, but I can't speak to it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Very, very good book, and within that book, he talks
about these five differentlevels of awareness, and so,
effectively, nobody wakes up oneday and wants what you have,
especially not us as agencyowners.
Right, like nobody's.
Like gee whiz, I'd love to hirean agency and I've never had a
bad experience with them.
Right, like everyone comes likewith context and trauma, and we
have to understand that.
(05:40):
So in this book, there's fivedifferent stages of awareness.
I'm just going to talk aboutthree at the moment, and the
first one of those three isproblem aware.
So they know that they have aproblem, but they haven't
started thinking about solutions.
So, for example, it might belike I have a cough, why do I
have a cough?
I'm problem aware, right,that's one kind of person that
we can talk to.
(06:00):
The next, then, is going to besolution aware.
Okay, okay, I have a cough,it's because I have pneumonia.
Should I go to a doctor?
Should I get cough drops, coughsyrup, whatever?
I'm starting to assessdifferent options.
And the third that we can focuson today is product aware.
Cool, I have a cough, it'spneumonia, I want to get cough
(06:20):
drops, and I'm looking at brandone, brand two, brand three.
Now, the thing with this is, andwhy this is important before we
dive into anything else morespecific psychologically is that
you need to understand whatconversation you're entering in
the prospect's mind or in themarket's mind and so I'll pause
my monologue there in a second.
(06:41):
But that's like to me one ofthe most powerful and simplest
things.
I think we all want to overcomplicate marketing and start
to add in these like recency,biases and the pratfall effect
and all this crazy stuff.
But really it's just if you cantake it back to basics and use
your empathy and like trulyunderstand the other person and
you can articulate theirproblems better than they can,
(07:03):
you can articulate their dreamoutcome.
That's can you can articulatetheir dream outcome.
That's like the only way you'regoing to be able to position
the business as a vehicle to gofrom A to B.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So the few things that I hear what you're saying
that make me think of is, likeI've always been taught, sales
is professionally helping peoplebuy, right, you're
professionally helping peoplebuy something, and it's very
hard, at least for me, to sellsomething I don't believe in,
right, you're professionallyhelping people buy something and
it's very hard, at least, forme, to sell something I don't
believe in, right, like you'vegot to know that this is going
to help somebody.
When you're talking about it andyou know, minus all the cool
(07:37):
psychology tricks that you cando with ad copy, the thing
that's worked best for me is tryto, like you said, understand
who's on the other side of itand get in that kind of mindset
where you're speaking to thatperson, like where you're having
that one-on-one dialogue, likewe're having um and and be like,
like, like, like you said, getin the prospect's mind or be
(07:59):
like the little birdie on thewall of like what they're
dealing with is so important,and I think this one-to
marketing is is what you'redoing on social media.
You're trying to have aconversation and then other
people are maybe coming into it.
The biggest thing that thatkeyed in what you said of like
how people are searching online,which we see this with SEO a
lot is the cycles that peopleare going in keywords when
(08:25):
they're searching right and sowhere are they at in the funnel
of what they're looking for.
And SEO can be used in additionto other strategies at all
levels of the funnel, but yougot to understand what you're
speaking to and where they're atof, like the acknowledgement of
the problem or the solution,and build copy and rankings at
(08:50):
each of those levels to getthose conversions.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So, yeah, exactly, and that helps you to understand
their education level, right,like that's all it is.
It's like, okay, well, whatconversation is going on in
their mind?
That means how educated arethey on what I do and how much
handholding needs to be done tomove them down.
So, for example, with funnels,I think a lot of people think
about funnels as these likeinternet marketer things that
(09:16):
Russell Brunson invented thatare totally optional, right, but
they're not like a funnel To me.
You have one by default.
It's just all of the touchpoints someone's going to have
with you, and then each of thesetouch points are a potential
revenue leak, right, and so itdoesn't matter if it's seo and
it's coming through seo trafficor it's coming through paid
traffic or it's coming throughorganic social traffic.
(09:37):
The whole part about thetraffic is it just gets the
click.
So your funnel is everythingthat happens post-click and it's
grossly neglected.
So then, going back to thosestages of awareness, once we
understand that, then we canstart to think about okay, our
funnel is just a series of microyeses and our offer is just the
(09:58):
next yes we want them to take.
So our offer is not this bigknockout punch, drag you back to
my cave and like force you toswipe your credit card to sell
right.
Each part of our funnel has apoint, it has an objective and
it's these micro yeses that weneed to craft out like an
experience to actually movesomebody along that journey.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
No, I love that.
One of the biggest things thatI've seen with a lot of
businesses when we look at it isthey're not doing even
retargeting.
Right, set up retargeting, youget them to your website.
I mean, overseas there areissues with privacy and stuff
like that, but pixel is targetedas a thing, a thing.
(10:41):
But but re, like, you're notgoing to close the deal.
Like you said on the first yes,right, you got to get the micro
yeses to get them into it,whether it's an email funnel,
text, a downloadable.
Like you, you got to buildthose steps because it might be
like a big ass to get them to gofrom point A to point B.
So you specialize in thesefunnels.
(11:02):
Like, what's the first stepthat you see lacking when you're
working with businesses?
Or you go to evaluate okay,here is the customer journey,
right, because a lot of peopledon't even know really what
their customer journey is.
I think it's really importantto know who are you targeting,
because each target persona isgoing to have a different
customer journey and is going toneed different things and have
(11:23):
different objections to movethrough that process.
Like, how do you like evaluatethat, map it out and what are
some of the biggest obstacles orthings that are missing when
you evaluate new clients?
Funnels.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
And so most people have never mapped out their
funnel and it's and it's notthat hard.
But I do remember the firsttime I saw a funnel map.
It was one of those infusionsoft ones and it made my brain
like leak out the side of my eara bit right.
I think funnel nerds, includingme, have totally over
complicated it.
Luckily for you and everyonelistening, I've done about 600
funnels in 120 niches since then, and so literally the whole way
(12:03):
that I think about a funnel iswhat I said before.
It's just those touch points,right, if they do this and then
this.
So it's just a series of touchpoints with decision diamonds if
yes, if no, and then that'sstrung together with landing
pages and automations.
But to keep it really reallysimple, and especially because I
have to use my mouth words toexplain funnels without any
(12:23):
diagrams, I'm going to keep itextremely simple.
We have traffic and thattraffic typically is going to
land on a landing page.
Now most people get really hyperfixated and they need lead
magnets and we need to do allthese lead magnets.
Yes, but why don't we getin-market leads first?
Why don't we get people lookingfor us and remember when I was
(12:44):
talking about before in thatsolution or product aware.
So we want to find the peoplewho are actually ready to take
that next step with us, and whatI specialize in is getting
qualified leads booked on a call, so I'm going to skew towards
that.
So, when we have our landingpage and that's one of three
main steps in this funnel I'mgoing to teach the reframe that
we have with this landing pageis that we think of it as a
(13:06):
digital appointment setter.
And already, when you stopthinking about it like a page
and you start thinking about itlike a digital appointment
setter, well, now you start tothink about what's the message
hierarchy, what's the one clearcall to action?
What is the social proof weneed to have on the page?
What is the language of thetarget market?
How do we make it feel likeit's one to one communication?
(13:27):
Because that's literally whatmarketing is right.
It's just salesmanship.
Well, it used to be called inprint, now it's in code, I guess
.
And that's that very first stepis this landing page, and I'm
happy to go deeper.
The most important part on thepage is the offer Right now.
The next part of that is okay.
(13:47):
Our digital sales person haseducated and it has excited
people and someone goes yes, Iwant to take up this offer.
I want to take the next stepwith you.
They click the button Now.
What a lot of people aremissing to your question before
is a qualification and adisqualification, because
everybody is obsessed withvolume of leads but, we don't
want leads, we want buyers,people, we want money in the
(14:10):
bank, right.
So when a lot of people come tome, they're very frustrated.
Usually their volume of leadsis low, but their quality of
leads is shit part of myaustralian so it's like very
shit.
They're very frustrated and wehave to send them through this
qualification system.
So what that looks like is wewant to have a series of
questions.
Now we will usually do this ina multi-step, maybe three to
(14:32):
seven questions, right.
And all we do is we say to thebusiness owner or to the sales
team hey, what makes a qualifiedlead, what makes a qualified
lead?
And then you just reverseengineer those questions there,
because probably for a lot ofpeople listening, if they're
marketers, I can imagine that abig contentious, head-butting
point in their business becauseI've worked with so many would
(14:54):
be marketing and sales.
Marketing feels like they'regetting it Sales whinges, and I
can say that because I've been asalesperson before.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
So, yeah, the other podcast that I co-host on that's
all we talk about is how salesand marketing work together and
how there is that contentionbetween a marketing qualified
lead and a sales qualified leadand really how it should be the
same funnel right.
And what I have seen personallyis, depending on the kind of
(15:25):
leads you're putting out, meansyour, your messaging you're
putting out is attracting thosekinds of leads.
Like it's like if you use thefishing analogy, you're putting
out the kind of bait of whatyou're attracting.
Does that make sense?
And so, if you're getting thewrong type of leads, something
in your messaging or what you'reputting out there, your offer
or whatever, is off because thewrong kind of people of what
(15:48):
defines wrong but like youdefine as what you're looking
for as your ideal prospect orwhatever, is not moving forward
or they're not moving forwardenough.
You got to kind of zero in onthat, targeting a little bit
more to get that.
And once you get that, I meanyou can get um, through content
marketing, through attractionmarketing, through persuasion
(16:11):
right.
You can get those people totake action.
Here's the crazy thing too.
Um, I've been doing a lot morestuff on, uh, social and, and I
need to get hard, hard onYouTube, because everybody's
moving to YouTube, right?
Like, not as many people arelistening to podcasts.
I mean, we have a lot of growthin the Asian markets, but not
as many people are listening topodcasts like they were Um, or
(16:35):
they want to listen to them onYouTube, I guess so, but what I
can tell you is I totally,totally forgot what I was going
to say.
So just keep going and I'll,I'll, I'll think of it in a
second.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Good, you can take back the talking stick whenever
you want and take that over, buteffectively with that funnel.
Then it's the landing page.
It's a digital appointmentcenter.
The most important thing isyour offer.
We have the qualification andthe booking system.
It's a digital appointmentcenter.
The most important thing isyour offer.
We have the qualification andthe booking system.
It's a series of form fields.
It gets marketing and sales onthe same page.
It shows we've delivered aqualified lead.
We have a calendar booking.
(17:07):
You'll usually have like 50 to80% of people book straight in.
That's another big thing thatpeople miss.
I'll have clients come to usand be like, yeah, so we get all
these leads filling in a form,but we can't get a hold of them.
I'm like why don't you givethem the option to book in?
And they're like ah, I was likeyeah, imagine if they were just
booking straight into yoursales team's calendar.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
So, alicia, what I've seen with like education
businesses or certain kinds ofbusinesses, you've got to get
the buyer when they'reimmediately in that mindset and
if you don't, it's hard to getthem again.
So, like leads for, like Dennisor something like that, they
sign up for stuff, maybe on aFacebook funnel or something
like that, and then they nevershow up.
(17:51):
They don't even remember theybooked.
We have to train the salesteams a lot to like you got to
call quickly, you got to followup quickly, especially even like
we were running some reallyheavy Yelp ads for a client and
you had the option to book onYelp Right, and it was, it was
awesome, but you had to respondwithin like two hours or you
(18:11):
couldn't get ahold of them.
And so what are some things thatyou can do to catch them?
Like I know, like text messagesopen a lot but, like it, when
somebody moves out of thatbuying phase, it's very hard to
get them again until they'reback in that buying phase.
So how do you speed up the sale?
Uh, potentially, or move themfurther through the process
(18:32):
faster, or catch them oncethey're off, and I'm also seeing
a lot of leads that are comingin which I have no idea why this
is happening, but like they'relike fake leads or something
like that, like just people arelike putting information in and
it's not like they're trying tosell you.
Like some people are doing thatlike where it's like a sales
book on appointment or whatever,but they're just like fake
(18:54):
people that are booking onsomething.
Maybe it I guess it'scompetition or I don't know what
, what.
I've just seen a lot of stuffbut I don't see it maybe at the
volume that you've seen it withthe funnels, and I'm just kind
of curious about um that, thatfirst interaction, I guess.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
And so part of that is, I'll call it like show up,
show up rates, like maybe that'slike how to get show up, show
up, how to get like you've gotthe lead, how to contact them,
and it's true.
Basically, what you're sayingis delay is death of the sale.
Right, like once we have thatmomentum, then we need to try
and keep it, and so the thirdpart that I'll share in a second
(19:31):
will help with that.
In terms of the calendar, it'sparticularly good for b2b,
because we're used to doingcalendars in our B2B lives and
in B2C we can see more of adecrease.
Basically, what needs to happenis that the sales team needs to
be calling within five minutesof the person filling in the
form, whether they book in ornot.
So what will happen is, in thefunnels we create, someone will
(19:54):
fill in a form, a certainpercent will book in the
calendar, doesn't matter.
The sales team should call both,either's like hey, matt, I saw
that you filled in the form butyou couldn't find a like a spot
to book.
Can I book you in blah, blah,blah?
Or it's hey, matt, I saw youjust booked in a call, just
wanted to touch base and sayhello, I actually just had a
sales call or like a strategysession cancel.
(20:15):
Would you like to go now andthen calling up with that
because you want to keep thatmomentum while they're hot?
So that's one of the many waysI can share.
What do you think of that?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
You know, one of the big things that I've seen with
funnels and I have a buddy.
I need to get on the podcast aswell.
That's just awesome at funnelshe has a whole call center right
.
Like, if you're doing funnelsright, it seems like you need to
bolt in that that follow-uppiece.
Maybe it's internal, maybe it'svirtual, but having somebody
(20:46):
that can follow up quickly, thatcan field calls, that can
manage the process.
Because if you're running a lotof ads, you're going to get a
lot of interest and you got tomanage that that whole process a
lot of interest and you got tomanage that that whole process.
And I feel like a lot of peoplethink marketing can do the job
of sales.
Does that make sense?
Like like they just think thatyou can run ads and just
(21:08):
magically people are going tobuy.
Um, and maybe some businesses,you can do that.
But if you talk about higherticket items, there's usually a
level of you know you go offline, you go back online, like you
look at some things, you'remaking decisions.
You're not just going to pullthe trigger out of the gate.
Either you're pulled thetrigger out of the gate
immediately or like it's 30 daysplus is what I've seen.
(21:31):
It's one or the other.
There's not a lot of people inthe middle.
I mean, have you seen that?
Do you think that there's aheavy need for the outreach
component or the sales componentor the appointment center piece
?
I don't know exactly how tostate it properly.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yes, number one.
This is why it comes back towhy it's important to understand
what stage of level ofawareness they're in so you can
create the right offer.
That's the right next microstep.
Basically, if you're having anissue with leads not answering
or leads not showing up, we haveto think why?
Why one like, why not?
Because they were like they,they did take some action.
(22:10):
So like why not?
Oftentimes it's time basedwe've lost that momentum now and
something some cat on theinternet has got their attention
and now it's all over.
But most oftentimes it'sbecause the offer is weak,
there's no value, there's noanticipation, there's no
(22:31):
excitement.
So like why?
Why would they show up and whywould they want to talk to you?
You haven't built any value andyou haven't built any authority
and you haven't built any frame, and I totally agree with you.
Um, I think a lot of businessesrely on marketing to solve a bad
business and to solve a poorsales process.
Right like, they thinkmarketing's a magic pill.
Marketing is a magnifying glassand if you have or it's like
(22:53):
rocket fuel, right like, if youhave a really good business and
I come and pour rocket fuel onit, it'll go off.
But if it's a dumpster fire andI come and do my marketing.
It'll just amplify those issues.
That's all that will happen.
So, coming back to like thelanding page, then we have this
qualification and this bookingand then to help with actually
converting the lead and gettingin contact with them, do you
(23:15):
need an appointment setter?
It depends.
A lot of the time, the funnelsthat we build make appointment
setters unnecessary, and that'seither because now AI chatbots,
are so advanced appointmentsetters should be very worried,
or because we're getting themdirectly booked in and then the
closer, like most closers, willhave time to call.
(23:38):
But it can depend on thebusiness and the volume of the
leads as well.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So, with all the AI stuff, I'm testing out all kinds
of stuff right, and they'regetting me on call, so I'm the
one, I'm the prospect, likegoing through the process and
it's.
It's actually good to seewhat's happening and I'm
actually disappointed because Ithink I'm going to talk to
somebody for a demo andsomeone's like qualifying my
business and they're asking melike 10 questions and I'm like I
(24:04):
just want a demo, like theyshould just actually have it on
the web.
Like remember the 1-800 numbersused to call 1-800 number, you
don't have to talk tosalesperson, you can just like
listen to it.
I was like they should give methe option to like just, if you
want to see a demo, watch thislink.
And if you want to talk tosomebody, here you go.
But they're getting me on thephone.
I'm anticipating getting to seethis tool.
(24:24):
And then they're asking me like20 questions and they're like
okay, well, we'll set you updown the road.
And I'm like I don't think thatthis step is necessary to to to
your point and it's just, it'sreally interesting to see, see
all these different fronts.
And I did think about what yousaid.
You were talking about momentumand I've been really studying
psychology a lot and I know I'mtaking this off script back to
(24:46):
psychology, but I wanted to addthis in this is what I
remembered On Facebook, on allthese different platforms, you
know how, like a big influencerthat has earned that authority
or that credibility, I guess,has posted just something like a
statement, a quote, and then,like it gets thousands of likes
and views.
Right, and I was like, why?
(25:07):
Why is that happening?
And why do like, if people areposting stuff on Facebook, no
one engages?
And it's what you said.
You said momentum like peoplewant to jump on the bandwagon
and get on that momentum, okay,and they feel like people
haven't.
Uh, I guess you know, they're,they're, they're bandwagoning on
(25:29):
the authority or whatever thevisibility like that's like like
the new strategy.
But did you know, only 1% ofpeople or maybe it's two, one or
2% of people on Facebookactually even engage with a post
like common and like.
And so I just finished thisbook.
Hold on here For those of youon YouTube which I'm not really
(25:51):
on I just finished this book andthis was a Russell Brunson, a
recommended book.
I went to one of hisconferences recently how to
unlock your subconscious mindthrough the science and middle
analysis by a couple of peoplewith the last name Benedict, and
it was like it was a reallygood book.
(26:11):
It was old school, you know.
He reads like books that werelike written 50 years ago but
still rings true.
It's kind of like getting backto the source, but I just
thought that was like superinteresting and everything we're
doing to bring it back to whatwe're talking about has a
component of psychology.
Uh, like you said, hey, theoffer might not have been strong
(26:32):
enough to get them to takeaction.
It got them interested, but themomentum stopped.
It did.
They didn't follow through orthere wasn't enough for them on
the other side to keep goingLike where?
So let's go, I guess, to leakyfunnels, right, like you've
heard that term a lot and Ithink that it doesn't get enough
(26:53):
credit.
Like you have a funnel, like,fix the broken funnel, don't go
just build another one and throwthe baby out with the bathwater
and that's a noun we use herein the US, but not all the time,
but that's what I see.
And my business partner sells abunch of supplements, okay, and
(27:14):
we do a bunch of supplementstuff and he goes to all these
affiliate conferences and wetalked to a lot of these people.
And a break even funnel Nowwe're not talking B2B, but like
a break even funnel, uh, or aself liquidating funnel where
you can spend the ads and keepthem going for free and then
your offer upsells.
Is that something that that isstandard?
(27:36):
Or is that something that mightjust be standard?
And affiliate marketing?
Or like how standard inaffiliate marketing?
Or like how are you seeing that?
And like how do you identify abroken funnel?
Like analytic wise, and thenwhat are you doing to fix that?
I guess?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yes, so with a self liquidating funnel you can do
them technically in leadgeneration and you could be
running so, for example, for myagency.
In the future I would plan tomaybe do a self-liquidating
funnel on landing page templates.
Right, and I might sell thelanding page templates for nine
(28:10):
dollars, whatever that like,with an upsell that covers the
cost to acquire a customer.
But then where most peopleforget is that the money like
cool, you can break evenself-liquidating, but you need
to have ascension.
It's like russell brunson 101,or like j abraham dan kennedy
101, right, it's like what isthe high ticket in the back end?
(28:33):
And so when we're doing ourlead generation with our clients
that's what I was talking aboutbefore like let's just find
those in-market leads, let'sclear the room on that, and then
self-liquidating is just isjust going to be going after
somebody that's further back intheir journey and you can do
that because then you bring themonto your list, your earned
(28:53):
media, and you take them alsoyour owned media, and you take
them off of like earned or paidmedia and you can bring them in
and then in terms of leakybuckets in the funnel, that's
just every touch point, right?
So, going back to that likebasic funnel that I was
outlining before, the landingpage, the qualification system,
and then one part was the thankyou page, and with the thank you
(29:16):
page, what you never want to dois say thank you, right,
because this is another touch todo is say thank you right,
because this is another touchpoint in our funnel where we can
pre-swave them and educate themand get them to show up.
So usually what you want to dois congratulate them Like
congratulations, matt, you'reone step closer to achieving the
dream outcome.
Tell them the next steps.
Here's what happens next Go toyour inbox, find this email,
(29:36):
confirm this calendar link,whatever and then you want to
get them to take the next action, because whenever they've just
done an action is the best timeto get them to do another action
, and one of the biggest thingsI would usually get them to do
is to start consumingtestimonials, right, testimonial
videos, while you've got themdoing stuff watching that.
So that's another touch point.
(29:57):
And then there's automations,but basically with your funnel,
once you map out these touchpoints, when you talk about
leaky buckets, the next logicalthing we might talk about is cro
right, conversion rateoptimization, because that's the
whole thing.
You'd find the leak.
You find like you want toidentify the right part of the
funnel that has the leak andthen you start the
(30:17):
implementation process to stopit losing you money.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I love that.
I think you have some greatcase studies and I would love to
maybe share some of theindustries you work in, maybe
some of the case studies, sopeople can understand.
And you talked abouttestimonials, right, like what
you've been able to do for someof these companies and how
that's transformed theirbusiness.
Because I think that at leastpeople I talk to today that get
(30:49):
on our calendar have like webriefly touched on before a lot
of past experience that theybring into of working with
another agency, of what theythink works, what they think
doesn't.
You know, I'm getting a lot ofquestions of like, can you
(31:09):
handle our business?
Because I guess a lot ofagencies well, there's a lot of
need out there for what we dowork with the client, get
involved in a process and thenthey become a number, right.
Or I've even seen some agenciesthat have like even see people
in the local area have like 80something accounts on the paid
(31:29):
ad side to the account managerand it's like you can't even
manage, like there's no way anaccount manager or a PPC manager
could manage that many accountseffectively, right, and so then
they're just managing based onmetrics.
Like it's really about, I think, building that process, setting
up those automations, likepersonalizing it, leveraging all
(31:53):
the tools that we haveavailable today to have a great
funnel and after that funnelstarts working, that funnel's an
asset and it works and it's notthe human component of managing
.
And I love what you said aboutthe marketing of like basically
putting up the shingle.
People are going to find outreally quickly if you're good or
not, and I look at people'smarketing and it helps me to
(32:17):
decide how good their process is.
Right, um, uh, and I know a lotof businesses don't do don't
drink their own Kool-Aid as much, right, but but I, I think that
, um, it's almost like abusiness card.
And, uh, you have some greatcase studies on your site.
Uh, persuasion experiencecom.
Uh, I would love for you tojust kind of share some of the
(32:39):
experiences that might rhymewith what other people might be
dealing with today.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Awesome, and so predominantly what we deal with
or what we specialize in at ouragency is paid ads right, but
profitably scaling paid ads andseeing an actual ROI, and so
there's some things, and I'lltalk about those case studies in
a second, but there's a coupleof things that are important
here.
Number one is tracking ROI andnot ROAS.
(33:05):
So return on investment and notreturn on ad spend.
Why?
Because ROI includes theagency's fee.
So these are just.
I've been working in agenciesfor 10 years, so anyone that's
like a bit unsure about theiragency, I'll give you a couple
of hints.
That's one thing.
The other thing is we make surethat we're not optimizing just
for CPL and volume of leads, sonot just for cost per lead.
(33:27):
Why?
Because cost per lead does notaffect the P&L, the profit and
loss.
So what we're actually trackingdown to is what ads turn into a
buyer or, if they have a longerlead to sales cycle, a
qualified lead, because then youfeed that data back into the ad
platform and tell the adplatform to find more of those.
(33:48):
And what I see a lot of peoplegetting wrong on their ads when
they come from other agencies isthe agency like yeah, look how
many leads we're getting.
You Like we're so awesome andit's a $6 CPL and the client's
like, yeah, but they don't turninto sales, like they're crap
and so going into, maybe thefirst case study I can share.
This is for a client.
(34:08):
Um, they work in in the ndispace, ndis space in australia,
so we work a lot of us andaustralian based clients.
But basically what this clientdoes with the ndis it's a
disability support program andit helps kids to find PTs across
Australia and get matched witha PT so they can keep their
health and fitness up.
And now when that client cameto us, they were originally
(34:29):
using lead form ads on Facebook,which I hate with all of my
heart and I think are the worstthings ever invented.
I've got a video on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
No, I want you to, I want you to fully vent on that
one.
I would love to go a little bit.
Do we have a few hours?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
yeah, um so so, basically, with instant forms,
lead formats, whatever you wantto call them, you will get a
larger volume of leads.
But that's not the game we'replaying, right, we're trying to
get qualified leads that turninto buyers, and so with that,
because there is no friction,you'll just get a flood of
shitty leads who might take upyour count, like your sales
(35:06):
calendars time, and never showup to the call.
When they do talk to you, theyhave no idea who you are or what
you're talking about, andthat's like what we're trying to
avoid, right.
So with this client, weimplemented that system I was
talking to you about before along form landing page like the
longest you've probably everseen, because it's a digital
sales person.
We're not going to limit theamount of text because some
(35:27):
designers complaining aboutthere's too much text to design
for right, like that's not it.
Strong offer, long copy.
We have a qualification systemand we have a good thank you
page with the automations.
Now, funnily enough, we did notdecrease that client cpl.
We slightly increased it, butwho cares?
Because we're tracking throughto roi and we dramatically
(35:48):
increased the roi.
Now, another thing with thatclient was and this is why it's
important to like actuallyunderstand lead generation and
sales.
Is that because we're alsotracking lead to sales time?
So they lead to sales timebecause they used to be
uneducated prospects, right,because the marketing wasn't
doing any of the education.
So that means that it wastaking 30 days to close a client
(36:12):
for them.
With our system it was takingtwo days.
Two days, so a slightly highercpl, which most businesses would
freak out about.
That.
That's because they're notpainting a full picture so
that's, that's one, one example.
And then, obviously, like wecould like profit, and then,
because we built the economicswith the scale, we could
profitably scale those ads.
(36:32):
So most people who come to usmaybe they haven't started ads,
but most of them are capping outthey can't figure out how to
actually scale their ads andit's because they're missing
this post-click experience.
Maybe they're usually nottesting enough ads as well, like
nowhere near enough, but thispost-click experience is not
dialed in.
So that's one case study.
Before I launch into my nextrampage, I'll pause there in
(36:56):
case you want to.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
No, I love it.
Keep going.
This is great.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Keep going there, in case you know, I love it.
Like, keep going, this is great, keep going.
Okay, that's one.
What's another one?
Um, another one is for a hairtransplant doctor.
Um, again, this was facebook adsand another agency was running
their ads and so when they cameto us like yeah, all of the
metrics, like we did decreasecpl, we did scale their account,
like all of that good stuff,obviously you can go read it,
but I just want to teach peoplewhat I think is the most
(37:20):
valuable takeaways, because whenI looked at this account back
when I was doing the sales, Icould tell straight away it
wouldn't be working.
And it just goes back to what Iwas talking about earlier.
Why?
Because they were on a coldplatform going out with ads that
said, hey, get a hairtransplant for $10,000 or
whatever it is.
Now, why doesn't that work?
(37:42):
Because the people on Facebookare not product aware.
They don't know they need ahair transplant yet, right.
What they do know is thatthey're starting to lose their
hair and it's embarrassing andthey hate it and they want to
figure out how to regain anatural looking head of hair.
That's the words of the targetmarket.
So it just doesn't make senseon facebook to go out and try
and get that, and what theclient was experiencing was
(38:03):
crappy leads who don't show upand don't close yeah, no shit,
because they're not ready forthat yet.
It wasn't the right next microstep.
So instead, what we did is welaunched an offer, and it was
something around like save myhair consultation and treatment
plan.
Why?
Because the purpose, likeeverything, has a purpose.
The purpose of the sales call,the sales process, was to
diagnose and prescribe, and sowhat that meant was he could
(38:26):
actually show them yeah, here'syour problems, here's what you
need.
Blah, blah, blah.
Now, not everybody actuallyneeded a hair transplant.
Some people could do medicationand like laser and different
things, whatever right, and soit actually gave him more of an
opportunity to increase ourincrease our number of different
types of customers as well,instead of just trying to shoot
(38:47):
fish in the barrel.
Whereas on Google ads we wouldnot run that offer, we run a
direct to hair transplant offer.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
So you have different landing pages, like where you
run like a VSL, like from theFacebook, to kind of bring them
up to the point that theyrealize that the solution is the
hair transplant, and then onthe ads, people are already
searching for it so you can likeskip a step or like what did
the funnel look like?
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I guess, exactly exactly what I said earlier.
And this client is beautiful oncamera.
Not every client is great oncamera, so don't put them on
camera.
And we use a lot of AI avatarsnow, but this client is great on
camera, and especially becausehe's a doctor, so it's like you
want to build that authority.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Video ads.
Long-form landing page.
Strong offer build strongauthority follows our system in
terms of the hierarchy ofmessaging.
Multi-step questions, likemaybe five, seven questions.
Multi-step questions, a form, acalendar booking, his team call
because this is medical,medical, you got to call
(39:53):
straight away.
On ghl.
You can do a forced I thinkit's called like a forced
outbound, like whisper call orsomething.
So if I fill in my details thenmy admin front desk can get a
whisper call to connect me tothat lead.
That's very important to do.
And then the sales process.
So that was, that was literally.
That was literally it.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
So, but did you?
I guess what I'm asking is onthe AdWords campaign, were you
running that to the same landingpage?
A different landing page,different landing page, yeah,
and then were you were justtrying to close them from
Facebook.
On the long form sales letter,you weren't moving them to the
(40:34):
next page.
So like those were separatefunnels for different stages, it
wasn't like one big funnel andthey fed into it.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Is, I guess, what I'm asking Two different, two
different funnels, but the salesmechanism for both is a is a is
a consultation with the clinic,right?
So in like different landingpages, slightly some of the same
information, but predominantlythe above the fold before you
start to scroll, especially onGoogle ads.
(41:03):
It's such a blessing on Googleads and SEO because you
understand the searcher intent,like, whereas on Facebook ads
you've got to try and figure itout a little bit more and you
can put the keywords in andstuff.
So, different landing pages,same booking system.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, all going to the book.
All going to the book.
The call Right and okay.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Got it Exactly Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Very cool, very cool.
I like, I like that that's goodfunnel yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Anything else.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
I want more funnels.
I love this.
I want to.
I think we're adding value topeople.
I think there's a lot of peoplelistening that.
I think that they think funnelsare too complex Right.
And I would actually love tohear from you just to be to to
have fun.
I can share one that I'mstruggling with right now
because but complex funnels,right, like, the simpler you can
(41:56):
get, the less of the process.
Now I've seen with forms, okay,I've seen literally I don't
know what the data is.
I think it's like almost like10%.
Every time you ask anadditional field, like even if
it's like first name and thenlast name, you lose a number of
people that are going to fillthat out.
I've seen that exactcorrelation with adding those
(42:18):
fields.
So if you're trying to get thatreally highly qualified lead,
you add those to kind of selffilter out or have people self
filter out what they're doing.
I'm dealing with this crazyfunnel where, like I know it's,
I've heard that it's possiblebut I personally don't know how
to do it Track a UTMB code froman ad to a page that then pushes
(42:42):
them to another website.
Like I'm losing the UTMBtracking from that website to
the next website and then fromthat website they're uh,
self-selecting on that websiteand then it goes into come some
kind of backend database.
So there's like three steps tothis funnel and so I had to get
all the different stakeholders.
This was like yesterday I hadto get all the stakeholders on
(43:03):
the call and I was like, can welike skip this step?
But if we skip that step, canwe get a page like when you're
running a franchise, stuff,right?
So I'm like, can we get a pagethat we can control and put some
pixels on this page with the,the national vendor, and and
they're like, oh well, we got toask somebody for permission to
(43:26):
do that.
And then I'm like, can wereplicate this page and like
push the values through, becausethey're like we're going to
build out all these other pagesof how there's and it's.
I'm like, how are we going totrack, like you know, the like
the lifetime value of thiscustomer or like if their
customer even closed, likethat's what we're like trying to
get to.
And so I love the fact that,like you're simplifying it, but
(43:49):
I think people try to get toocomplex and it always, for me,
it's like how can we simplifythis?
How can we like streamline theprocess?
How can we get the data down towhere we're looking at fewer
data points and then you canslowly add stuff but, don't
don't start with like somethingcrazy.
And I think people are trying tobuild funnels that are trying
(44:10):
to, you know, watch a RussellBrunson thing or whatever, and
they're trying to build it outof the gate like a massive
InfoSoft right, like whateverfunnel with all the different
hookups.
And I know you do go high leveltoo.
I would love for you to speakto that.
I think there's a lot of people.
I think that's pretty hot rightnow and it for a while it was
(44:31):
very hard because the the theinformation on how to use it
there wasn't like good manualsand stuff.
Like I think people have come along way and there's people you
can follow, and then you knowthere's even agencies out there
that like help you do that.
But like go high level in thebeginning, if you didn't know
how to build a funnel and youdidn't know like a little bit of
programming, like good luck.
You know what I mean.
(44:52):
I would love for you to kind ofspeak to what you've done with
go high level and maybe justshare for fun what's like the
most complex funnel you everworked on and I would love to
like just hear that and then wecan.
I know we're getting close totime to wrap up, but I would
just love to hear that just forfun.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yes, okay, awesome.
And to build on your point,it's just start minimum viable,
right, because you don't know.
You don't know until you getthe data data.
Just keep it minimum viablewith every funnel and it's.
It's so funny you brought thatup.
I just did a talk in um sandiego at, if you know, like
michael stelzner, his socialmedia marketing world and this
(45:32):
was like the whole flavor flaveof the presentation was about
over complicating your funnel.
And then, like you learnsomething here and you read a
tallard brown book and and youread a Russell Brunson book, and
you read this and you read that, and then you like Frankenstein
, this awful funnel creaturethat you can no longer control,
right, like that's what we'reall doing, and I've done it so
(45:52):
many times where I like likehave to facepalm myself every
time because I've justovercomplicated this funnel and
it's like just keep it minimumviable.
And so that's the first part.
The second part, um, as yousaid about go high level, yes,
so our story with go high levelwas we were originally using
well, I've used like everylanding page builder, right,
(46:14):
like I've seen some shit I'vebeen traumatized.
I've had some trauma and we wereusing Unbounce and one day we
got an email from Unbouncesaying, hey, your price is going
to go up from hundreds ofdollars a month to thousands of
dollars a month.
And I don't know who had thesmart idea at Unbounce on
(46:36):
pricing.
But we were like, see you later, I don't't think so, and so we
had a couple of other agencyowners showing us what they were
doing inside of go high level.
So number one, it was price.
I think we pay like 300 bucks amonth as an agency and I think
for non-agencies like 97 a month, number one.
Number two was we had this hugetech stack right, calendly, um,
(47:00):
calendly, like you know, activecampaign, whatever, all of these
different like tech stacks thatwe had to log in and log out to
, and so just the productivityand the efficiency wastage of my
team.
I can't remember the stats, butI think it's like I can't
remember it's 32 hours or 32days a year or something
freaking crazy per person bylike losing like an hour a day
(47:20):
by all of this like productivitywastage, right, and I was like,
well, that seems like somethingas a ceo I should care about.
So that's another thing andthen all of the pricing slashed
on that.
Um, so it's like an all-in-onetool and also the thing like as
like an alternative maybe beingclick funnels.
I just think, aesthetically,click funnels always has that
(47:41):
you can tell like it's got aclick funnel it's a fun.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
It's a funnel, like you know.
You're in a funnel now, right,like you know, you're in a
funnel, yeah and it just looks,just looks click funnily and
there's nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
There's people making freaking millions and millions
and millions and dollars.
They work, but for the brandswe work with they can't look
like internet marketers knowwhat I mean.
So it's like we had to be ableto to get that going and so,
yeah, that's kind of our journeywith Go High Level.
And then it's somewhat simplelike you create these snapshots
and my team's going to listen tothis and they're going to like
(48:12):
ha ha, leisha doesn't do thetech set up.
So I've got to say my team'sinfinitely smarter than me and
they get in and do all of this.
But I know that the customersupport on Go high level is next
level.
Probably, maybe at the start,maybe it wasn't, but my team
literally are getting on callswith them all of the time.
Yeah, they've come a long way.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Problems and stuff with them and they've come a
very, very long way.
Yeah, no, I think that I wasrunning into with ClickFunnels.
With clients.
There's basically like withbigger clients.
They look at different metricsof what they can use in their
tech stack and I don't know ifthis is the case right now,
because we're not usingClickFunnels currently, but it
(48:57):
hadn't been updated in like twoor three years.
Like the software and from asecurity standpoint, a lot of
clients were like no, no, no,and you're right, like there was
like a lot more moving giftsand you feel like you're in a
funnel and I think people seethat now.
I think there was an air ofnovelty to it in the beginning
(49:19):
and I feel like, yeah, like theinternet's evolved and the
brands have evolved and go highlevel is kind of taken over as
the market leader and in thatspace, and that's what I see
everybody using today and and II think that their, their, their
tech supports come a ton, theycome a long way.
Okay, so I know we're gettingclose to time here.
(49:41):
I wanted to ask you and youmight've already shared it, but
like in kind of a short formatcould you share with me what you
feel one of the biggest unknownsecrets of internet marketing
is Good question.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I think that it's not that it's unknown, it's lost,
right, and I think that peopleare trying to over complicate
marketing and they're alwaystrying to find this shiny new
hack, and I think ai andtechnology is a huge part of
this.
But the way that I think abouthiring marketers or marketing
skill set or marketing is thisequation psychology plus
(50:22):
economics times technology,right, technology is a
multiplier and so 1000 timeszero is still zero.
And I think if you're amarketer and you want to truly
become world craft like, worldclass and the best at your craft
, you should be learningpsychology and understanding how
humans think, because thathasn't changed for hundreds of
(50:42):
years and it won't change forhundreds more, whereas these
tech platforms, the media,whatever, like it changes all of
the time, right, but a masterylike a true mastery, like I'm
talking old school david ogilvy,gary halbert, like true mastery
of of the human brain and andhow we tick.
So I don't think it's likeunknown, I just think it's fast
(51:03):
forgotten for these shiny AItools and tactics.
But yeah, they kind ofaccelerate everything else.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
No, I love that and that's what I feel too.
I go back to the book that Ijust finished reading, literally
last night.
I try to get those old schoollike uh, um, advertising and
marketing books, like directselling, like some of these
really old books, because I feellike today people have taken
(51:31):
that concept and then they've,like incorporated into what
they're saying and they've maybechanged it or, let's not say,
watered it down, but it's beenreplicated so many times that
you're playing the game oftelephone and you're losing like
the core sense.
So every time I go back, I meanpeople are still people and you
(51:52):
just need to go back to whatare the things that make people
tick and understand.
There's, like you said at thebeginning of the podcast,
there's some human on the otherside reading it and you have to
remember that process.
And the first thing that I evenshow clients, I'm like have you
gone through your own funnel?
(52:12):
Have you gone through your ownfunnel?
And like it's shocking to mehow many people are spending all
kinds of money and they'venever really gone through it as
a customer themselves and youcan fix a ton of problems and so
, um, so yeah, simplify,simplify, simplify, um.
How do people get in touch withyou if they want to hear more?
(52:33):
I uh, I would love to get alink also to your talk at social
media marketing world.
I know there's a bunch of mybuddies there and I couldn't
make it.
I, I, I have young kids and Ican only go to so many
conferences.
I'm going to another SEOconference in like two weeks,
cause just everything's movingso fast.
I'll probably be there, but Iwould.
I think you shared a ton ofgreat stuff, so what's the best
(52:58):
place for people to find you?
I know you said you're uh,really big on youtube as well,
so oh, I'm not really big.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
I do okay, um, but I everything, everything.
Everything is on my youtube.
So under alicia conlon heardeasy name to spell.
You guys just sounded out, um,I'm sure it'll go into the show
notes, but I like more of thosecase studies.
Like I just give it all awayfor free.
I'm very, very passionate aboutkeeping them the magic alive in
marketing and and and helpingpeople and and I really love
(53:27):
teaching and showing people and,if anybody is interested in
starting with, go high level.
I am an affiliate with them.
So if you want to sign upthrough my link, I don't get.
I get paid some money whatever.
No, no extra to you.
However, because I'm verypassionate about giving the best
offer out there as part ofsigning up through that link.
I don't get.
I get paid some money whatever.
No, no extra to you.
However, because I'm verypassionate about giving the best
offer out there as part ofsigning up through that link.
We do have three of our builtlanding page templates in there,
(53:48):
like fully built, ready to go.
You can just like fill them inand build them.
So if anybody wants that andthey actually want to try, go
high level, because I think it'sa freaking awesome platform.
Just go to gohighlevelcomforward, slash alicia hyphen,
conlon hyphen heard, and you cangrab my my templates in there
in a 30-day trial awesome.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Well, alicia, great having you on.
What time is it over there?
It looks like it's dark, um, soI know you're on the other side
of the world yeah, so I live inbali, in indones, indonesia,
and now it is 12.04 am.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
Hopefully, my brain wasn't a potato.
Speaker 2 (54:27):
It was a great conversation.
I enjoyed it.
I'm sure everybody enjoyed itas well.
So thank you so much for comingon.
Until the next time, I am MattBertram.
Bye-bye for now, bye-bye,bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-bye, bye-.
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