Sales and marketing are becoming increasingly interconnected, with the most successful businesses breaking down silos between departments. Digital marketers must expand their skill sets beyond specialized areas like SEO or content creation to embrace analytics, client communication, and sales principles.
• Modern marketing requires understanding that different social platforms have unique algorithms and audience expectations
• Focus on mastering one platform before expanding to others – content that goes viral on one platform may fall flat on another
• We're experiencing a "trust recession" where cold outreach is less effective than in previous years
• Live events and webinars are outperforming traditional video sales letters as they build relationships and establish trust
• The two biggest problems facing sales teams are culture and skillset issues
• AI is transforming sales processes through call analysis and highly targeted advertising
• Data-driven targeting can reduce customer acquisition costs by 40-70%
• The most effective sales approach today is consultative rather than aggressive
• Building trust is more important than being liked – customers need to trust that you can deliver results
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- https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffketterer/
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The Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing podcast is a podcast hosted by Internet marketing expert Matthew Bertram. The show provides insights and advice on digital marketing, SEO, and online business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing
your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Howdy.
Welcome back to anotherfun-filled episode of the
Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
As you can hear from my intro,I have too much data on the
cloud and I need to offload someof it.
We are rebranding the podcastshortly, so stay tuned for that.
We will do a press release andannounce it on all the social
channels, but until that pointin time, we are still here doing
(00:43):
it like we always do it.
I have a great guest for youtoday.
I think that sales andmarketing is essentially
becoming synonymous with eachother, and I think sales
departments and marketingdepartments need to break those
silos and work closer together.
I believe in it so much.
(01:04):
I have another podcast, calledthe Oil Gas Sales Marketing
Podcast, that I do with thefounder of OGGN, oil Gas Global
Network.
So for those of you that listento me over there, that's all we
talk about, and I want to bringsome of that flavor to this
podcast and, as we like, expandinto digital marketing outside
(01:27):
of SEO, which is absolutelychanging, like you wouldn't
believe, and I have so manyupdates for you.
I just got back from aconference up in New York, super
excited.
What's going on withinformation retrieval, with LLMs
, so stay tuned for that.
Please follow me on LinkedIn.
If you're not, I'm going tostart posting more and I have
(01:48):
Jeff with Rev Boost Recruitmenton the line.
You might know him from what hedid formally with closersio.
They probably reached out toyou and I want to go in to sales
teams, uh, coaching, consultingas like a revenue line.
There's a lot of great digitalmarketers, uh, and internal
(02:12):
marketers that listen to thispodcast and and I think that
where we are in the world todayis they need to become more.
Okay, like you cannot stay inyour lane of SEO or social media
.
Like I just brought on two newpeople from big agencies.
They were doing content Okay,fantastic content Never touched
(02:35):
the social media platforms,never talked to the clients,
never looked at analytics, and Isaid for me, to be able to hire
you, you're going to have to beable to learn these things.
So, like you need to startgetting these certifications
right now and you're going tohave to grow, because right now
your skill sets is so narrow Ican't I can't do anything with
(02:57):
that skill set unless it'sapplied to kind of multiple hats
.
And I think marketers arebecoming more salespeople.
I think salespeople arebecoming salespeople.
I think salespeople arebecoming more marketers.
I even did, jeff I know I wantto, I want to get you into this,
but I just did a challenge, uh,on Facebook, because someone
was like, ah, facebook doesn'tmatter, okay, and I my personal
(03:20):
account.
I don't post very much.
I'm going to post on LinkedInin the next week or so probably
be out before this podcast comesout.
But I took an account that had320 something views in 28 days
to over 19,000 views, and Idon't have a big following on
social.
I have nobody that is in myspace.
(03:42):
Really, I mean a handful ofpeople.
The power we have today to sell,the power we have today to
build a personal brand, thepower we have today to do
marketing for ourselves as acoach, as a consultant, is
unprecedented in what you had somany years ago.
And I hear so many people talkabout click inflation and it's a
(04:03):
real thing.
Okay, you shouldn't be on allthe same platforms as everybody
else.
You should spread it out, likethere, there there's really kind
of a fan out kind of mentalityand building that brand across
all different mediums tounderstand who you are.
But it really comes down to thetrust and also you got to know
(04:26):
how to have a product and sellit, and so I would love to open
up the conversation with whatyou find is happening trend-wise
, that's most topical for you.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Wow, where do you start?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I know it's a lot, apologies.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
No, you're good Trend-wise.
I mean, I've got a fewdifferent schools of thought on
this.
Number one is I'm a firmbeliever in picking a platform,
because it doesn't matter whichplatform you pick.
It could be Facebook, instagram, tiktok, youtube, doesn't
matter, but they all operatedifferently.
And sure, if you've got a bigbrand name, you can post
(05:04):
something on TikTok and it'll goviral.
You can post it again onInstagram, it'll go viral.
If you're a smaller creator,you can post something, and I've
had this myself.
You can post something onTikTok, go viral.
Hundreds of thousands of viewspost exactly the same piece of
constant content on Instagram.
200 so yeah, so I would.
I would say for anybody lookingto be able to utilize social
(05:27):
media for business pick aplatform and learn it first.
And there's nothing worse thanI know, because I've done this
myself.
You're trying to do everything.
You're trying to do long formpodcast, youtube, chop it up,
clips, reels, lives, stories,and it's just exhausting.
So I would say to anybody thatwants to utilize social media
(05:49):
just get really, really good atone platform.
Learn that, start garnering anaudience.
You'll learn elements from thatwhich you'll be able to take to
another platform.
But just posting the same thingon multiple platforms they're
so different.
They operate so differently.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So there's actually like matrices that they're
looking for in the type ofcontent and what they're trying
to do, like whether it'sLinkedIn, so you know, it might
be hiring related, it might besuccess or promotion related.
So so, yeah, there there'sdifferent and I've done that too
.
I've been doing this test.
Like I mentioned, facebook andLinkedIn and stuff that falls
(06:27):
flat on this platform will dogreat on this.
But if I can tweak the content,I can do that, and now you can
start to leverage AI and there'sthings that you can do to to
help give yourself again thatthat leverage.
But until you really understandthe platform and how it works
and and that's again what Irecommend to people post on it
(06:48):
every day and look at theanalytics for 30 days, there's
nothing about actually doing itthat can compare, I mean
theoretical, whatever you know.
Until you do it and see how itresponds for you.
We say this with websites allthe time hey, you got to come in
a couple months.
We need to see how your websiteperforms versus everybody else,
(07:10):
versus, like the algorithms,and then we can tell you what,
where we should go and what weneed to do.
And I think, jeff, one of thethings I think is important,
that I think you can speak to,is you got to have an
understanding of what your offeris and what your ask is and
what you're moving somebodytowards, because if you're just
posting all over the place onall kinds of topics, one, you're
(07:33):
going to confuse the machinelearning of the different
platforms of like who are youtrying to speak to?
Because it's trying to helpgive you what you want, and then
you you have to have a veryconcise message because, well,
the attention spans are ticktock Right, and so, if you can't
get your sales pitch togetherof what is your ask and it could
(07:54):
be just subscribe, right, orjust like our posts, but you
need to have a goal and thatgoal needs to be part of a
bigger strategy and you need tounderstand what that looks like
when you are doing it on all theplatforms.
Right, but let's okay, let'sexecute successfully on this one
platform and then you canactually start to even flow some
(08:15):
of that traffic to the otherplatforms.
Once you build that, well,audience, I think that a lot of
people just want to sell stuffand how social media works.
Is you got to build a community?
You got to build an audience.
I think that a lot of peoplejust want to sell stuff, and how
social media works is you gotto build a community, you got to
build an audience, you've gotto have people care about what
you're doing, and that's wherethose that momentum comes in.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yep, yep, a hundred percent.
Yeah, it's bizarre because Imanaged to build a I don't know
whatever it is 70,000 person, Idon't know whatever it is 70,000
person follower following on onTikTok, and I did exactly that.
I thought, oh great, well, Ican build a.
You know, I can build anaudience anywhere I want.
You can't.
It's not true.
(08:54):
I've got 2000 followers onLinkedIn and you know, it's just
, it's so different, it's so, sodifferent.
So I, I, anybody that's tryingto do that, I feel your pain.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Me too.
It's a real, it's a realstruggle.
Um, I I can tell you, uh,youtube for me is the big focus,
cause, uh, we were, uh, audioonly podcasts for 12 years.
So, uh, going to video first ishas been a big, big switch and
we're working on that.
So let's get into sales stuffLike what are, what are the
things?
Let's just start off with themyths or what.
What you find when you comeinto companies to assess, like,
(09:35):
what are the problems thatthey're having of why they reach
out, and then what are thethings that you found is the
most quick fixes, that is,you're seeing a consistent theme
in all businesses.
Maybe we can just put that outthere for the audience.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
For sure by a country mile.
The two biggest problems theteams that I help are number one
, culture.
They don't know how to garner aculture inside of their sales
team, and anybody that thinksculture is not important is
wrong.
And number two, good oldfashioned skillset.
And so those are not always,because everybody gets an
(10:10):
independent audit and sometimesthe culture is great but the
skillset is poor.
Sometimes the skillset is greatbut the culture is poor.
Sometimes they're both trashand sometimes they're both great
.
So, um, but those two thingsare the the biggest needle
movers that I've found is if youcan have a great culture and a
great skillset, you can scaleexponentially.
(10:31):
So those are typically thethings I look for.
First, what are what are peopledoing?
What are they talking about?
Are they, you know?
Do they have a regular meetingcadence?
And if they do, becauseeverybody goes, oh yeah, we have
a daily meeting.
And then you listen to theirdaily meetings and basically
it's just a beat down for thewhole sales team.
It's like, well, how do youthink they're going to go and
perform if all you do is beratethem first thing in the morning
(10:53):
and whip them with a big oldstick?
There needs to be a balance ofstick and carrot, and a lot of
people it's either too muchcarrot, too much stick or not
enough of either.
That's the problem.
So not enough of either.
That's the that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So you're talking about the daily standup that a
lot of people before they theygo into the bullpens or or
whatever.
Now a lot of people arestarting to have remote teams
right, or or they're usingthere's all kinds of different
blended methods to to build that.
So I think we can go into theskill sets.
I think that's absolutelyimportant.
But culture is something thatneeds to happen first.
(11:26):
Right, because if you have theright culture of the right
person, you can train them withthe skill sets that you want,
and everybody's going to have adifferent kind of strategy to
sell.
But but creating culture,there's got to be themes in that
that you see.
So can you talk about in personand then like remote teams.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, I work almost exclusively with remote teams
because I deal with people not100%, but probably 99% in the
high ticket sales space.
So coaches, consultants, coursecreators, people have a high
ticket offer and they realizevery quickly that they are the
bottleneck in their business.
So they're like well, I can'tdo all the marketing and all the
(12:04):
fulfillment and look after myclients and do operations and do
all the sales calls.
I need a sales rep.
So one of the one of the thingswe do is we help them find
those reps.
And then the second problemthat they run into is that they
go.
Well, okay, I don't actuallyknow how best to train a sales
rep.
I don't know how to keep themmotivated, I don't know, you
(12:26):
know when to whip them and whento reward them, you know, and
all of this kind of stuff.
So that's the second factor.
So what we do is we source,train and maintain remote sales
teams for people in the digitalhigh-ticket sales space Course
creators, coaches, that sort ofstuff.
So the problem number one iswhere do I find good reps?
(12:47):
Um, I'll post on social media.
I must have somebody in mynetwork, um, and the problem
with doing that is that the bestreps are not hanging around on
social media waiting for anoffer, they're already on an
offer.
Um, so that's the first issue.
The second issue is then theyget a rep on board.
They don't know how important adaily stand-up is.
They don't know how to developthat culture.
(13:09):
And that culture really stemsfrom good, old-fashioned, strong
leadership.
And that doesn't mean thatyou've got to be a bulldog every
day and issue beatdowns leftand right, but it does mean that
you need to be a strong leader.
It does mean that they need tolook at you as somebody that
they would you know, for want ofa better phrase follow into
battle.
(13:30):
And I think that's where a lotof creatives and entrepreneurs
because a lot of entrepreneursin my space are visionaries.
You know, they're great at whatthey do, they're good at
running marketing campaigns andall this kind of stuff, but then
, when it comes to leadership,they find themselves out of
their depth.
And that's very often wherewe'll step in.
We'll take over the leadershipon a fractional basis, we'll
help manage the team, we'll helptrain the team and we'll
(13:50):
certainly help supply goodquality reps into that team as
well.
So the two biggest issuesnumber one where do I find good
people?
Number two how do I step intoleadership and really be the
leader that my team needs toperform at a high level?
Speaker 1 (14:04):
and really be the leader that my team needs to
perform at a high level.
So when you're coming into theconversation with some of these
brands or high ticket salescoaching consultancy groups, you
know I can understand the zeroto one right.
I, I'm, I'm the operator and Ineed to add somebody.
Um, and how do I do that?
And I, and I certainly thinkthat there's probably even like
a, a course you could have oryou might have that, that that
(14:25):
offers that.
But if someone has a, alreadyhas a sales team, that's really
scary that they're burning.
Like they have a sales team,they've hired up a couple of
people and it might not beworking correctly.
Like and and they've addedpeople.
So now I mean, every time youdo a standup, like it's
(14:48):
everybody's hourly rate plusyour own, like in that call
Right and like that was thefirst thing that I noticed as,
as our team started to grow,when I had company-wide meetings
and my accountant's like going,this is the cost of that
meeting and this is the cost Ifyou talk for 10 minutes more
like, you know what I mean.
And and uh, I I think thatgetting a handle on your numbers
(15:08):
is is super important.
I think salespeople reallyappreciate numbers and comp
plans.
I feel like comp plan drivesthe right behavior.
And, to your point, uh, goodsales reps, uh, they're either
in an opportunity or someone'strying to pull them away from
opportunity, but they're notlooking for an opportunity um
ever, uh, unless they're part ofa program.
(15:30):
I guess that offers uhoutsource solutions of that
selling.
And, um, I don't know, can youkind of speak to uh some
examples, maybe some casestudies?
You know, just anonymize thedata of who it is, but like some
businesses you looked at andlike why they called you in what
(15:55):
you saw and and what were thekind of broad strokes of of
fixing their issues.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, yeah, certainly .
One particular company that I'mworking with at the moment had
a small sales team, so you know,a couple of setters, as we
would call them, people that areoutbound dialing leads, that
have come into the funnel butnot booked an appointment, and
then they had three closers.
They still have three closersand two setters.
The biggest issue by far isnobody had a handle on the
(16:24):
numbers and nobody had set intostone strict KPIs.
So this is what is expected ona daily, weekly, monthly basis.
If you are behind at the end ofweek one, why are you behind?
More importantly, what are yougoing to do to get in front?
Right, and so they were likewell, well, you know, we're just
(16:49):
supplying them with leads,we're just booking the leads
into the calendar, and that'sgreat.
But everybody needs structure,right, everybody.
We crave structure and you, youknow, you, you notice that when
somebody doesn't have structure, they kind of go off the rails,
they get lackadaisical, and Iknow this for myself.
(17:09):
If I have a structured diary,if I have a structured calendar,
I know what I'm doing hour tohour, day to day.
I'm far more productive.
If my calendar is open, I mightend up scrolling something or
there might be somethinginteresting on Netflix and I
become insanely unproductive.
So just helping business ownersunderstand how important
structure is, how important KPIsare, and those KPIs you know,
(17:34):
when we were talking previously,before we started recording
that, we were talking about MQLsand SQLs, all kinds of stuff
like that so, so important.
But also the KPIs that you setyour sales team to the standard
that you set for your sales team.
So, if we develop 100 leads andthe show rate is 70%, I am
(17:54):
expecting you, if you have, youknow, 70 conversations out of
every 100 leads.
This is the close rate that I'mexpecting.
If not, I want to know why.
Is it a skills-based issue?
Is it a skills-based issue?
Is it a culture-based issue?
Is it a lead issue?
Like, are we just attractingthe wrong people through the
funnel?
I tell every single team I workwith you know you can never
blame the leads.
It's always your fault.
You've just got to take it onthe chin.
(18:15):
However, having said that,sometimes it's the leads.
You know, if you've got oneparticular company I work with
at the moment, they're running,uh about, you know, thirty
thousand dollars a month throughmeta.
So you know, not not thebiggest ad spend, certainly not
the smallest and, um, they justcouldn't understand it.
They're like every single leadwe get through show rates,
(18:37):
terrible, you know, the closes,the setters, must be doing
something wrong.
It must be this, it must bethat.
And then when you, I said, okay, I'm going to do a funnel audit
, I'm going to go in, I'm goingto go and have a look.
I didn't need to get anyfurther than their front end ad,
and the front end ad was sayingthings like you can do this
with none of your own money.
Well, if you suggest that youdon't need any of your own money
(19:02):
, guess who you're going to pullinto your funnel?
People with no money.
So what we did is we justshifted the messaging yeah, the
message.
Yeah, just shifted the language.
I said look, the offer can staythe same because it's a great
offer, but stop talking aboutpassive income, because there's
no such bloody thing unless youwin the lottery.
Stop talking about you can dothis with no money passive
income, because there's no suchbloody thing unless you win the
lottery.
Stop talking about you can dothis with no money.
(19:26):
And the second we shifted themessaging.
Everything started to flowthrough the funnel, sales team
and now reporting back oh my god, the leads are.
The quality of the leads isinsane.
I'm speaking to people that canactually afford to buy our
product, you know so.
I think that's so important isjust having a handle, and you
said right at the start of thisconversation, sales and
marketing being intertwined.
The way I see it is that thetwo independent cogs inside of
(19:49):
the same mechanism and they'vegot to be married up because
otherwise you you could betrying to and I see that people
try and fix the wrong problem.
It's our setters, it's ourcloses.
They're not closing anybody,it's okay.
Well, they're not closinganybody, it's okay.
Well, let's take a look at aand end up at z and we'll figure
out what the problem is,because it's not always a sales
problem.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Sometimes it is a marketing problem so we do a lot
of like account-based sellingfor b2b clients.
Uh, it, it's essentially adressed up funnel um, there
might not be uh, setters, uh,but you, you're booking people
into business development people.
And there's a big complaint Alot of times when we go in on
(20:29):
the quality of the leads right,and we got to look at, well,
where are the leads coming from?
But, yes, what is your offer?
What are you fishing with?
What's the bait you're fishingwith?
And if you're fishing with thiskind of bait, you're going to
get this kind of fish right orwhatever.
And once you change that, likeI've seen it, small clients and
I'm talking multi-million dollardeals that, okay, take a long
(20:53):
time to close, but if you havethe right bait and also if
you're generating what we'retrying to help clients with,
generate the content to helpfeed that funnel.
So it's not the outboundsalespeople.
I mean, when we, when westarted hiring, we have kind of
a quasi like your accountmanager and you're a salesperson
, um, because when they sell youwe want the same person, kind
(21:15):
of that relationship where it'snot handed off, not saying
that's like the right, likelong-term solution, but it, it
works really well for us becauseyou want to talk to somebody
that's intelligent, like.
There's nothing worse, jeff,for me, when I get on a call,
thinking I'm going to like get ademo with a product, and it's
just like a setter to likequalify me right for like a lot
(21:36):
of the, and I and I just feellike a lot of that could be done
with AI or bots or or orsomething to speed up that
process.
And I understand, likeenterprise technology, they they
want to make sure to fill theday of of clothes and
salespeople.
Well, but I'm telling you rightnow, if you put out the right
(21:56):
content, if you put out theright offer, right Like, so
content's just an extension oftop of the funnel, of whatever
the ad is that you're running,and if you have that right ad,
you will get the right kind ofpeople and you and these
algorithms can find the rightkind of people.
If you've distilled your offerout, um, I mean, I've just like,
(22:16):
I think that, yes, they're theexact same thing, but sales has
to talk to marketing um and hasto understand it, and they have
to do that analysis.
Like, let's, let's look atthese leads.
Let's not just look at the topline number, like is this a
qualified lead.
How are you rating If this is aqualified lead or not?
Is this the kind of lead thatsales wants?
(22:37):
Because what sales does at thebigger companies?
They cherry pick the good leadsand then throw out everything
else.
Right, but salespeople which Iwould love for you to speak to
this and when we can just jumpinto AI after this.
But, um, like I, I have been asalesperson for a lot of my
(22:58):
career.
If you look on LinkedIn, I'vedone cold call selling.
I've done in-person selling.
I was classically trained as asalesperson and once I
understood digital marketing andthe one-to-many selling just
like this podcast we could talkto a lot of people.
There was no going back for me.
I'm not going to go.
(23:19):
I'm not going to do coldoutreach.
You know, I would much ratherhave someone come to me that is
interested in what I'm offeringand let me explain to you like,
how it might look to work withus.
Like, are we going to solveyour problem?
I would much rather spend mytime doing that where, where,
where, they're coming mydirection, versus that cold
(23:39):
outreach.
But that works.
It's a numbers game, right?
But also the more like enricheddata that you have to
understand where those problemsare, where those needs are,
where you prep your call list.
That's great.
It sounds like you're doing alot of let's run ads to a funnel
, let's get people interested inor get their email of some kind
(24:01):
of lead magnet, and then we'regoing to follow up with those
people that don't actually booka call and and try to get them
back into that funnel.
Is that kind of thestandardized process you work
with mostly?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah for sure.
Some some of my clients havelarge organic followings so they
don't actually need to run anykind of paid media, which is
great.
You know, half million millionpeople YouTube channels really
well, optimized, great, top offunnel, all that kind of stuff.
Other people are runningexclusively sort of meta and
YouTube ads.
So obviously the lead qualityis massively different.
(24:37):
Right, if there's an organiclead that's been watching your
channel for a number of monthsand they get on a sales call,
close rate is typically throughthe roof for those kind of leads
50, 60% and up.
Cold, and there's a definiteshift in the market recently.
Cold much, much harder.
Go back five, six years youcould run a meta ad, get a cold
lead through the funnel.
(24:57):
They watch a 10-minute VSL ormaybe a 60-minute webinar.
They book a sales call and 60minutes later you're taking
thousands of dollars off of them.
That's getting harder to do.
It's.
It's okay, you know.
And somebody said to me theother day they said, oh, yeah,
well, tony Robbins does it allthe time.
I'm like, yeah, dude, he's TonyRobbins, like he's got one of
the most recognized brands inthe world.
He could, he could run an ad ofhim sleeping and it would
(25:20):
convert, you know, but for thesmaller people who are not as
well known, and stuff like that,then I'm definitely seeing a
shift where I think we exist ina trust recession.
Yes, and it's because peoplehave been burnt, they've bought
bad programs, they've they've,you know, ended up being scammed
, whatever version of a scam.
(25:40):
Some people actually have theirmoney stolen.
Other people just end up in aprogram and go, oh, this is
trash.
Um, you know, I've got nosupport.
You know they're not actuallyteaching me to do what they say
they can, and so we exist nowwhere the marketplace lacks a
ton of trust.
So I'm finding what is workingis people going back to things
(26:02):
that work previously, thingslike live webinar, podcast,
stuff like that, things thatwill build a relationship with
somebody, because they requiremore nurturing, and the
psychology is almost like theyneed to go from thinking that
being able to get a result forthemselves is possible and they
(26:22):
need to get to the point wherethey think it's probable.
And it's getting harder andharder to do that with a 10
minute VSL and a 60 minute salescall.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Well, like, again, the trust recession.
I love that I might have toborrow that Um and uh I.
I mean there's click inflationand there's a trust recession
and you know there's juststagflation happening everywhere
, right, and I think that peopledo business with people they
know, like and trust, and it'sjust getting so noisy and
people's attention spans are allover the place.
(26:52):
I think that that's what someof that algorithm is meant to do
.
And then from TikTok and thenInstagram and YouTube shorts
have adopted that.
So there's just so much noiseand there's so much stuff Like
how do you cut through it?
It's it's trust.
It's like people want to knowyou're the trusted advisor and
that you're going toconsistently be there and they
(27:13):
continue to see your message andthey, they build that trust
over time and they want tofollow somebody that they
believe can help them.
Right, like they, that hasmaybe done it before or has
testimonials that they've helpedother people, but it's not
going to happen.
The first touch, like it's notgoing to.
So you're running that that ad.
(27:33):
I mean it's got to hit themlike 11 times or more before
they even get recognition of ofit and then they haven't spent
enough time with your content.
The long form sales letters didthat because you got to know
them through that point, butthey didn't have all that
baggage.
So I love the idea of webinars.
That's something actually we'regoing to start start doing here
(27:55):
shortly, cause I think thatthere's a lot of kind of longer
form explanation that can'thappen on shorts or social media
that if someone's trulyinterested, hey, like, this is
going to take a minute to unpack.
Um, I mean, what, what are you?
What are you seeing um workingthe best, or like.
Can you give an example of acase study of like okay, they
(28:18):
were doing that, they're runningthe ads and here are the
conversion rates.
And then we implemented thiswebinar, um, or uh, we
encouraged them to do xyz and,like it turned around their
business.
Because I think there's there'stwo people in my mind that I
think we're speaking to.
One is like I was going to do awebinar and you know people
(28:42):
give me comment if you, if youthink it's a good idea, but I
was going to run, uh, an ad onFacebook going what the WTF is
happening with my marketing,like, because everything's
changing and the things thatused to work are not working.
Okay, and everybody in therebeing inundated with all this
stuff and AI, which I do want toget into this.
(29:03):
This call after this is, butit's like so much stuff's
changing, so many things are notworking.
I'm busy running my businessand then you know, not just
click inflation, but like realinflation, like things are
getting more difficult, harderand time is just being stretched
so they don't know what there'sgoing on.
And then there's other peoplegoing, okay, like I need to make
(29:25):
a pivot.
Whatever I'm doing right now isnot what I want to be.
There's going to be a lot ofpeople, I think, with automation
and everything else, startingto lose jobs.
I was at a in Texas.
It's a little bit differentstory because we have a
president that's positivetowards, you know, energy.
But in New York and also inCalifornia, the tone was very
(29:47):
different of the level of theeconomy in the U S.
I don't know specifically UK,but I've I've read things online
.
It's it's kind of everywhere.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
There's all the old, true.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, right, like.
So I don't know, like, what dopeople do Right?
And and I want to I want to getinto the specific person you
can help the most, becausesomeone someone is looking for a
lifeline, someone's looking forsomeone to throw a life
preserver too and, um, I knowyour background and what you've
(30:20):
done and, like, I want thatperson to hear it you know, sure
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
So typically if somebody has, I guess, two, two
types of people, mainly numberone, somebody who's figured out
marketing, but now sales orsales team is the bottleneck and
they're like you said, clickinflation.
Cost of leads is getting moreexpensive, booking a book call
is more expensive, so they'relike well, how do we get the
(30:47):
team to convert higher?
So that's one person.
Another person is maybe whatthey were doing previously
worked for them.
Specifically one client that Ihave at the moment.
They'd run a VSL for thelongest time, metarad VSL
application call booking settersreach out to the leads in the
funnel, simple work, great.
(31:08):
They were doing half a milliona month and all of a sudden,
half a million a month went to400K, went to 300K, went to 150K
, but now obviouslyoperationally they've still got
all of the hard costs of abusiness that is at half a
million a month.
So they had to cut really,really hard and really fast.
And with that particular clientI I had an inkling.
(31:28):
When I looked at their leadsand I looked at their sales
process and all the rest of it.
I said I think you're dealingwith a trust recession based on
bloat in your market there's alot of people talking about the
same thing.
There's a lot of peoplespouting.
You know, everybody's got aunique mechanism, you know.
And so the avatar isessentially sat there thinking,
well, who the hell do I listento?
All the price points areroughly the same.
Sounds like they all do thesame sort of thing One-to-one
(31:50):
coaching and all the rest of it.
And so I said, if, if, if, myhunch is true and we're dealing
with a trust recession here,then let's take that VSL and
instead let's run a two dayevent as a test.
Right, just a test.
It doesn't mean you have to doit, but we're going to do a two
day event, two hours on a Friday, two hours on a Saturday
morning to catch the peopleafter work.
And, you know, saturday morningthey can do two hours instead
(32:13):
of mowing the lawn, whatever itis.
And they did.
That event got a still runningmeta ads, got a hundred people
in the room and off the back ofthe event.
15 of them bought, 12 of thempiffed, paid in full, so they
were like holy cow.
So every hundred people we getinto our funnel, 15 of them buy.
(32:34):
And and you know, whatever thepercent, yeah, whatever, yeah,
yeah, 12 out of 15 is.
I don't know what it is, mymath is horrible 80 something
without a calculator, I don'tknow but a lot, a high
proportion paid in full.
And that was the indicator thatit was trust in the market,
specifically in their market itwas.
(32:55):
It was um becoming sooversaturated and that made all
of the difference.
So they went from 10 minute VSLto live two day event.
We've now just implemented that.
They run a live webinar everysingle week on a Monday and
they're back up to a half amillion again and we're we're
scaling up from there.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
So just a interesting piece of data to bring into
this that I've, I've, I've seenpersonally.
Okay, Um, I don't think peoplesee this when they run ads,
right, Cause you're just forcinglike, if you're running meta
ads, it is shown in that the adscosts more over time.
Does that make sense?
But you're throwing so muchmoney at these ads, You're just
(33:36):
forcing it to be shown to people.
Google or, sorry, meta, istrying to tell you hey, these
ads aren't working as well, thismessaging is not working as
well, and so we're going tocharge you more.
We're going to show it to lesspeople right Now.
If you do that organically, ifyou post a commercially based,
creative, whatever you'reputting together, you'll see it
in the, the, the, the engagementyou know.
(33:58):
You'll see it in in how manypeople it gets showed to.
If you're looking at thedashboard and like creator view,
Okay and always, just how itworks is create a commercial
post Don't typically do as well.
Now I've found a way, likebecause I've been playing with
it to to incorporate it in whereI don't know if it gets um
(34:19):
categorized differently by thealgorithm so it shows it to more
people.
Um, because even highengagement posts posts, if
they're commercial intense there.
The algorithm doesn't like toshow it, so so there, I think
that there's a way of of howit's categorized to find a
better post.
But if you find a post that hasdone good organically, then put
(34:42):
the money behind that.
Okay, that's one piece that Iwould like to bring into that
I've seen.
And then the other piece isthis has been for years Okay,
and I just don't think peoplehave noticed it, but now people
are starting to have to pay alot more attention because you
can't just force things throughanymore.
On meta, for example, peoplenever want to share a sales
(35:04):
related post, but they willshare an event related post all
day long, they will engage withit, they will like it, and so I
think that that feeds into evenkind of a broader expectation of
what works has always worked.
It's just more important towork better now because you need
those those higher conversionrates.
More important to work betternow because you need those those
higher conversion rates.
All right, so I want totransition into what are you
(35:28):
seeing now?
People leverage with AI.
Where do you think it's going?
Just what are your overallviews on AI in general in the
sales process?
Because I've seen just someinsane stuff that the future of
agents is going to be incredible.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
It is, I agree.
So there's a couple ofdifferent areas where I utilize
AI.
One area is because I work withmultiple teams.
One of the most importantthings as a manager or a
fractional sales manager to dois to do call reviews right.
You've got to understand whatpeople are saying.
Where are they struggling?
How good are the leads?
How is the pitch landing?
All of this kind of stuff Very,very hard to do.
(36:05):
So I trained a GPT that I canessentially take the transcript
from every single sales call andI can feed it into a GPT and
the GPT will analyze it as meand give me a blow by blow.
This is what needs improvement.
This is what was good.
This is how the pitch landed.
It will analyze how theprospect felt.
(36:27):
It's not a hundred percentaccurate but what it means is
that yeah, I can feed all ofthis data into the GPT.
It will spit out all the dataand then I can just put it in a
graph and I can say, okay, ourbiggest bottleneck at the moment
is the pitch.
The pitch is not landing.
People are.
They're humming and hawing atthe end and you know, when
they're asked a kind of tempcheck question, how does that
sound?
(36:47):
You know, kind of one to 10scale one horrible, 10, great.
They're like like yeah, soundsokay.
I guess I'd give it like a sixor a seven.
Okay, we need to revise thepitch like yesterday.
Do you know what I mean?
So that's that's one way we useai.
The other way we use ai is Ihave a data scraper for
specifically for people thatneed help with marketing.
I have a data scraper.
(37:08):
It's got about 200 million datapoints from Google and it is
specifically looking for peoplethat type in certain search
phrases and then we pull all ofthat data and we then upload it
into our clients meta ads as anexample.
This is not in my niche, but ifI owned a watch store and I
(37:34):
sold Rolexes, we can pull all ofthe data points from Google for
people that have searched foryou know, day, date, day, just.
They just for sale.
Rolex for sale buy a Rolex, allof these things, and then we
can upload that into the metadashboard.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
So now the ads are only going to be displayed to
people that have used thosesearch terms inside of the last
seven days are those on site orare you scraping ip addresses,
like I mean, I know that in theuk there's a lot more rules
around, uh, like cookie listtargeting and pixeling.
Um, how are you getting thatdata?
Are you buying that from pvvlists?
(38:11):
Or like how are?
How are you acquiring that dataon the front end apollovv lists
?
Or like how are?
How are you acquiring that dataon the front end apollo or
something?
Speaker 2 (38:17):
like that.
We've got two ways.
Number one is a data aggregatorand the other is ips.
Uh, and you're right, you dohave to.
You do have to be cautiousabout how you use the data, but
we're, we're, we're tracking ipsand we're um, we're purchasing
the data from aggregators,essentially.
But what typically happens whenyou upload that into Meta is
(38:39):
because now your ads are onlybeing shown because it's hashed.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, it's a lookalike audience Basically,
it's a custom audience Literally.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
But the most hyper likely audience to buy, because
we all know that Meta isinterruption marketing.
Right, People are scrolling,scrolling, scrolling.
Oh, that looks good.
Well now, if you put your ad infront of somebody that's looked
specifically for your productas, as an example, we just
implemented this with my clientin the real estate coaching
space.
They teach people how to, youknow, do HMOs and all this kind
(39:07):
of stuff.
Well, now, the data is onlyonly displaying the ads to
people that have indicatedthey're interested in HMOs, so
you're getting people furtheralong the awareness graph.
Instead of being problem aware,we're now managing to get
people who are solution aware.
So when they see the ad,they're like, oh, this is
exactly what I was looking for.
So you know, obviously theyclose at a much higher
(39:29):
percentage.
So those are the two ways Ispecifically use.
It is analysis and data, andthe note-taking bots to capture
it.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
We're pushing it to GPT right now basically some
custom prompts to spit out somerecommendations, and then we
push it to the person thatcreated the call on our team.
So whoever created the callgets an email report just
automated.
Here's what you could do better.
I'm sure we can improve thatand we could enhance the prompts
.
Created the call gets an emailreport just automated.
(40:17):
Here's what you could do better.
I'm sure we can improve thatand we could enhance the prompts
or even utilize like a customGPT that you create, where I'm
seeing a marketplace there whereto use this GPT it's five bucks
a month or 10 bucks a month orwhatever it is where there's a.
I think the business ischanging right.
I think everything's changing.
It's kind of like internet 2.0sort of thing and there's going
to be so many businesses thatare built off the back of this.
(40:37):
But you have to shift withwhat's going on.
I actually had a couple of callsthat were actually inbounds,
that needed marketing of sales,coaching organizations, and I
was like this is what I'm doingfor my team of like three people
.
You know you could create a lotof leverage in this to utilize
(41:00):
this at scale and if you thinkabout a 3% improvement, right,
they read the email, theyactually implement it.
Because you can upload, evenlike spin selling or whatever
you're using as your salesmetric.
It can give you recommendationsbased on that and if you're
constantly getting thoserecommendations and you just do
that, the leverage off of thatcould be exponential.
(41:22):
Of of those percentages, and Ifeel like that's what people
want is like, okay, jeff, andyou're like, hey, I don't have
time to work with all theseclients, but you could utilize
my GPT and we could set this upfor you, and blah, blah, blah,
and it becomes like a SaaS sortof thing.
There's a business right there,right, uploading the data,
(41:45):
absolutely Like the hashing data.
I mean, facebook knows moreabout us than we know.
Like everybody thinks the adslisten and I do think on maybe
some of the platforms in theterms of service, they are
listening.
But there is ways to protectyourself and Apple, for example,
does a pretty good job oflimiting some of that stuff.
Now Google, the phone is calledthe Pixel.
(42:08):
Okay, they're making fun.
These engineers are like Easteregging you Like.
You are, like we're doing thisto capture everything that's
happening, to sell you ads andeverybody's on their phone all
the time, and and so I thinkthis stuff is is super powerful,
and to be able to uh utilizethat data in a way that you're
not just running cold traffic toeverybody but you're only
(42:29):
showing like a billboard to uhthe person that potentially
wants to buy it becomes thatmuch more effective.
Your marketing goes that muchfurther.
I think those things arephenomenal.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
For the teams that we rolled that out with Matt
across the board, the least soit cut the CPA, obviously
because the ads are morerelevant.
The least it cut the CPA forany of those.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Those teams was 40 and the most was about 70, so
they went from you know, doubleyour money right there.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Cpa was, yeah, cpa was like two grand down to less
than a thousand bucks, just byusing the correct data yeah, no,
I think this is great.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Okay, I want to kind of open up the floor.
I've've covered the things thatI think are super relevant.
I'm sure that there's blindspots in what I'm seeing,
because I'm more heavily on themarketing side than the sales
side.
What are things that we didn'ttalk about in this conversation
that you think would be relevantto just kind of add in there,
as we're kind of starting towind down?
Speaker 2 (43:31):
I think there's a big shift in the way we sell
specifically coaches,consultants, course creators and
it used to be quite anaggressive selling style and I
don't think that's going to cutit much longer.
In fact, I know because I lookat the data every day.
It's not cutting it.
Now, people you said itperfectly.
(43:53):
You said people want to know,like and trust, and I agree with
that, and I think the mostimportant element of those three
is trust.
If somebody trusts that you canget them the result, they don't
necessarily have to know youparticularly well, sometimes
they don't even have to like you, but if they trust that you can
get them the result, they'll belike okay, I'm on board.
They'll be like okay, I'm onboard.
(44:17):
And I think the way that peoplesell in the, in the kind of you
know 2020 style, is no longerworking anywhere near as well as
it did, and people have tounderstand how important
building trust is.
And the question then becomeswell, how do I build trust on a
sales call?
And it's everything to do withthat communication with that
person, and it's almost likegoing back to having a good, old
(44:38):
fashioned human interaction.
Stop looking at it as a quoteunquote sales call.
Have a conversation with thatperson.
Do you need to follow aframework?
Yeah, sure, but make it aconversation, make sure you
connect with the person, makesure you're relatable to them.
Don't make them feel likethey're trapped in a sales
conversation and I think thequicker people can pivot back to
(45:03):
I don't.
I suppose the easiest way toexplain it would be a
consultative type of sale.
You know, consultative, aconsultative.
I think the faster they canmake that adjustment away from
this.
You know, kind of bro-y hardcloser, you know, and like, I
don't mind anybody beingaggressive in sales.
(45:24):
I've been in sales for nearly20 years.
I don't mind aggression, butthe aggression needs to be
interpreted as aggressivelygoing after the deal rather than
overtly being outwardlyaggressive, because that is not
cutting it any longer.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
So, so when I, uh, I asked my team to get reviews
right and I say you can only askfor a view that you've earned,
right, and I think that goes thesame thing with with the
selling, um, you gotta know whatyou're talking about and you
gotta know what that ask is, andif you don't feel like you've
(45:59):
earned it, you you shouldn't doit.
Um, and I I like that.
I think.
I think that that's a goodtakeaway.
I've always said no, I cantrust because, um, I've always
kind of approached it from theconsultative, like I want to
work.
If I'm going to work with you,I want to like like this has got
to be a good experience forboth of us, sort of thing.
Um, but there are definitely adifferent kind of people out
there and, depending on whatyou're selling, I feel like have
you seen a difference?
(46:20):
I feel like the real funnily,funnily looking stuff online,
right, like with all the like,different, like emojis, check
marks, like I feel like peoplejust see that and then they
immediately like put up a walland like they, they've just had
it, they bought it before, itdidn't work or whatever, and
(46:42):
there's all this baggage, and assoon as they see some of that
stuff, they just immediately putup a wall, and so the thing
that I have to continue toremind myself is there's
somebody on the end of thisconversation, like it's easier
to talk to you, but if you'redoing like a, a video where
you're just talking to the mic,you know you got to imagine a
(47:03):
person being there, and the moreyou can connect with somebody,
uh, the, the more, the the themessage is going to be
communicated.
Because if, if that messagedoesn't get communicated or
you're just broadcasting right,and I feel like there's a lot of
people that are just I'm goingto be louder and I'm just going
to broadcast more I don't know,I haven't seen that work as well
(47:26):
organically on social media and, um, I think that it's just
that's how people are handlingthe noisiness of the market.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I'm just going to be louder and I'm just like yeah,
yeah, yeah, I think it comesback down to understanding your
avatar.
You know, like you said, theemoji check mark.
You know fast paced stuff.
Well, that's great If you wantto attract to probably an 18 to
23 year old, but if your avataris not 18 to 23, that's probably
(47:57):
not going to cut it.
You probably want to dosomething a little more reserved
.
You know, and certainly with acouple of companies that I work
with, they've had that style ofmarketing.
They've run ads like that.
They've, you know, seen thecost per click go up, the cost
CPA go through the roof and I'vesaid, said, look, refilm that
ad, but just do it selfie style,just do it walking along by the
(48:17):
, by the beach, through the park, whatever it is, and just use
the same script, but just riffthe camera immediate, lift in
results, immediate, and I thinkpeople are getting back to just
wanting something that is realand a bit more natural and a bit
more believable, rather thanflashing lights, neon signs and
emoji check marks.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
I love it.
Okay, how do people get intouch with you?
Give your pitch, I think peopleknow you know what you're
talking about and you've helpeda lot of great people and
companies, and so I I just wantpeople, if they need your
(48:56):
services, to know who they areand how to get in touch with you
.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Sure, easiest way is probably LinkedIn.
So that's at Jeff Ketterer, g E, o, f, f, k, e, t T E R E R.
Although that's not where mybiggest audience is, that's
probably the platform I favor.
Um and uh, they can reach outto me there for sure.
Um, I've I've also gotsomething that for anybody that
(49:21):
wants it um, the elite salesteam OS blueprint.
So anybody that's currentlyrunning a sales team.
I did a masterclass and um,just laid bare some of the
things that I see improve salesteam.
So if anybody wants thatmasterclass, they can just
contact me on LinkedIn.
Just shoot me the message team25 and I'll send that across.
(49:42):
But, yeah, probably LinkedIn atJeff Ketter is the easiest way
to get.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Do you have the automation set up on TikTok or
whatever, wherever?
You said you're big, that ifthey put team 25, it just
automatically sends it to them.
Do you know what?
Or are you team 25?
Speaker 2 (49:53):
it just automatically sends it to you uh, do you know
what?
Speaker 1 (49:55):
or are you manually?
Speaker 2 (49:55):
doing it.
I'm just curious.
I do have a many chat set up,but I do not have it set up on
for that, and the reason forthat is because you know, I
appreciate what you're doing, um, and I I know you know,
building what you've built here,matt, is not an easy task.
So I also want to encourageeverybody to go, and anybody
that's listening, go and andgive a.
If you've listened this far, goand give them a five-star
(50:16):
review, because what you'redoing is great and you're
helping a lot of people and it'snot easy to do.
So I appreciate you for that.
But I do not have automationset up on LinkedIn.
That is manual and that'sbecause those are the kind of
people that I want to connectwith a little bit more closely
and I don't just want themhaving going through a many chat
funnel.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
So yeah, and and LinkedIn has some rules around
some of that, so you got to becareful of what automations?
And you don't want to getbanned.
So, um, but yeah, I, I wouldlove to uh get that file.
What is it Team?
Say it again.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
Elite team OS blueprint.
So if you just send me the wordteam 25 on LinkedIn.
I'll send it All.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
everybody go get that .
I think it's a great resource.
Okay, jeff, thanks so much forcoming on.
Hopefully, everybody found thisconversation helpful.
I love having realconversations with people and
not having people come on justpitch their services because,
well, we're in a trust recession.
So thank you for your time,jeff, and sharing your wisdom.
(51:15):
Yes, if you like this, if youneed some help, if you want to
leverage the most powerful,largest tool on the planet the
internet, and everything that'shappening in with these search
algorithms on all social mediachannels, reach out to EWR for
more revenue in your business.
My name is Matt Bertram.
(51:37):
Bye-bye for now.
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing
your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Howdy.
Welcome back to anotherfun-filled episode of the
Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
As you can hear from my intro,I have too much data on the
cloud and I need to offload someof it.
We are rebranding the podcastshortly, so stay tuned for that.
We will do a press release andannounce it on all the social
channels, but until that pointin time, we are still here doing
(00:43):
it like we always do it.
I have a great guest for youtoday.
I think that sales andmarketing is essentially
becoming synonymous with eachother, and I think sales
departments and marketingdepartments need to break those
silos and work closer together.
I believe in it so much.
(01:04):
I have another podcast, calledthe Oil Gas Sales Marketing
Podcast, that I do with thefounder of OGGN, oil Gas Global
Network.
So for those of you that listento me over there, that's all we
talk about, and I want to bringsome of that flavor to this
podcast and, as we like, expandinto digital marketing outside
(01:27):
of SEO, which is absolutelychanging, like you wouldn't
believe, and I have so manyupdates for you.
I just got back from aconference up in New York, super
excited.
What's going on withinformation retrieval, with LLMs
, so stay tuned for that.
Please follow me on LinkedIn.
If you're not, I'm going tostart posting more and I have
(01:48):
Jeff with Rev Boost Recruitmenton the line.
You might know him from what hedid formally with closersio.
They probably reached out toyou and I want to go in to sales
teams, uh, coaching, consultingas like a revenue line.
There's a lot of great digitalmarketers, uh, and internal
(02:12):
marketers that listen to thispodcast and and I think that
where we are in the world todayis they need to become more.
Okay, like you cannot stay inyour lane of SEO or social media
.
Like I just brought on two newpeople from big agencies.
They were doing content Okay,fantastic content Never touched
(02:35):
the social media platforms,never talked to the clients,
never looked at analytics, and Isaid for me, to be able to hire
you, you're going to have to beable to learn these things.
So, like you need to startgetting these certifications
right now and you're going tohave to grow, because right now
your skill sets is so narrow Ican't I can't do anything with
(02:57):
that skill set unless it'sapplied to kind of multiple hats
.
And I think marketers arebecoming more salespeople.
I think salespeople arebecoming salespeople.
I think salespeople arebecoming more marketers.
I even did, jeff I know I wantto, I want to get you into this,
but I just did a challenge, uh,on Facebook, because someone
was like, ah, facebook doesn'tmatter, okay, and I my personal
(03:20):
account.
I don't post very much.
I'm going to post on LinkedInin the next week or so probably
be out before this podcast comesout.
But I took an account that had320 something views in 28 days
to over 19,000 views, and Idon't have a big following on
social.
I have nobody that is in myspace.
(03:42):
Really, I mean a handful ofpeople.
The power we have today to sell,the power we have today to
build a personal brand, thepower we have today to do
marketing for ourselves as acoach, as a consultant, is
unprecedented in what you had somany years ago.
And I hear so many people talkabout click inflation and it's a
(04:03):
real thing.
Okay, you shouldn't be on allthe same platforms as everybody
else.
You should spread it out, likethere, there there's really kind
of a fan out kind of mentalityand building that brand across
all different mediums tounderstand who you are.
But it really comes down to thetrust and also you got to know
(04:26):
how to have a product and sellit, and so I would love to open
up the conversation with whatyou find is happening trend-wise
, that's most topical for you.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Wow, where do you start?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I know it's a lot, apologies.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
No, you're good Trend-wise.
I mean, I've got a fewdifferent schools of thought on
this.
Number one is I'm a firmbeliever in picking a platform,
because it doesn't matter whichplatform you pick.
It could be Facebook, instagram, tiktok, youtube, doesn't
matter, but they all operatedifferently.
And sure, if you've got a bigbrand name, you can post
(05:04):
something on TikTok and it'll goviral.
You can post it again onInstagram, it'll go viral.
If you're a smaller creator,you can post something, and I've
had this myself.
You can post something onTikTok, go viral.
Hundreds of thousands of viewspost exactly the same piece of
constant content on Instagram.
200 so yeah, so I would.
I would say for anybody lookingto be able to utilize social
(05:27):
media for business pick aplatform and learn it first.
And there's nothing worse thanI know, because I've done this
myself.
You're trying to do everything.
You're trying to do long formpodcast, youtube, chop it up,
clips, reels, lives, stories,and it's just exhausting.
So I would say to anybody thatwants to utilize social media
(05:49):
just get really, really good atone platform.
Learn that, start garnering anaudience.
You'll learn elements from thatwhich you'll be able to take to
another platform.
But just posting the same thingon multiple platforms they're
so different.
They operate so differently.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So there's actually like matrices that they're
looking for in the type ofcontent and what they're trying
to do, like whether it'sLinkedIn, so you know, it might
be hiring related, it might besuccess or promotion related.
So so, yeah, there there'sdifferent and I've done that too
.
I've been doing this test.
Like I mentioned, facebook andLinkedIn and stuff that falls
(06:27):
flat on this platform will dogreat on this.
But if I can tweak the content,I can do that, and now you can
start to leverage AI and there'sthings that you can do to to
help give yourself again thatthat leverage.
But until you really understandthe platform and how it works
and and that's again what Irecommend to people post on it
(06:48):
every day and look at theanalytics for 30 days, there's
nothing about actually doing itthat can compare, I mean
theoretical, whatever you know.
Until you do it and see how itresponds for you.
We say this with websites allthe time hey, you got to come in
a couple months.
We need to see how your websiteperforms versus everybody else,
(07:10):
versus, like the algorithms,and then we can tell you what,
where we should go and what weneed to do.
And I think, jeff, one of thethings I think is important,
that I think you can speak to,is you got to have an
understanding of what your offeris and what your ask is and
what you're moving somebodytowards, because if you're just
posting all over the place onall kinds of topics, one, you're
(07:33):
going to confuse the machinelearning of the different
platforms of like who are youtrying to speak to?
Because it's trying to helpgive you what you want, and then
you you have to have a veryconcise message because, well,
the attention spans are ticktock Right, and so, if you can't
get your sales pitch togetherof what is your ask and it could
(07:54):
be just subscribe, right, orjust like our posts, but you
need to have a goal and thatgoal needs to be part of a
bigger strategy and you need tounderstand what that looks like
when you are doing it on all theplatforms.
Right, but let's okay, let'sexecute successfully on this one
platform and then you canactually start to even flow some
(08:15):
of that traffic to the otherplatforms.
Once you build that, well,audience, I think that a lot of
people just want to sell stuffand how social media works.
Is you got to build a community?
You got to build an audience.
I think that a lot of peoplejust want to sell stuff, and how
social media works is you gotto build a community, you got to
build an audience, you've gotto have people care about what
you're doing, and that's wherethose that momentum comes in.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yep, yep, a hundred percent.
Yeah, it's bizarre because Imanaged to build a I don't know
whatever it is 70,000 person, Idon't know whatever it is 70,000
person follower following on onTikTok, and I did exactly that.
I thought, oh great, well, Ican build a.
You know, I can build anaudience anywhere I want.
You can't.
It's not true.
(08:54):
I've got 2000 followers onLinkedIn and you know, it's just
, it's so different, it's so, sodifferent.
So I, I, anybody that's tryingto do that, I feel your pain.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Me too.
It's a real, it's a realstruggle.
Um, I I can tell you, uh,youtube for me is the big focus,
cause, uh, we were, uh, audioonly podcasts for 12 years.
So, uh, going to video first ishas been a big, big switch and
we're working on that.
So let's get into sales stuffLike what are, what are the
things?
Let's just start off with themyths or what.
What you find when you comeinto companies to assess, like,
(09:35):
what are the problems thatthey're having of why they reach
out, and then what are thethings that you found is the
most quick fixes, that is,you're seeing a consistent theme
in all businesses.
Maybe we can just put that outthere for the audience.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
For sure by a country mile.
The two biggest problems theteams that I help are number one
, culture.
They don't know how to garner aculture inside of their sales
team, and anybody that thinksculture is not important is
wrong.
And number two, good oldfashioned skillset.
And so those are not always,because everybody gets an
(10:10):
independent audit and sometimesthe culture is great but the
skillset is poor.
Sometimes the skillset is greatbut the culture is poor.
Sometimes they're both trashand sometimes they're both great
.
So, um, but those two thingsare the the biggest needle
movers that I've found is if youcan have a great culture and a
great skillset, you can scaleexponentially.
(10:31):
So those are typically thethings I look for.
First, what are what are peopledoing?
What are they talking about?
Are they, you know?
Do they have a regular meetingcadence?
And if they do, becauseeverybody goes, oh yeah, we have
a daily meeting.
And then you listen to theirdaily meetings and basically
it's just a beat down for thewhole sales team.
It's like, well, how do youthink they're going to go and
perform if all you do is beratethem first thing in the morning
(10:53):
and whip them with a big oldstick?
There needs to be a balance ofstick and carrot, and a lot of
people it's either too muchcarrot, too much stick or not
enough of either.
That's the problem.
So not enough of either.
That's the that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So you're talking about the daily standup that a
lot of people before they theygo into the bullpens or or
whatever.
Now a lot of people arestarting to have remote teams
right, or or they're usingthere's all kinds of different
blended methods to to build that.
So I think we can go into theskill sets.
I think that's absolutelyimportant.
But culture is something thatneeds to happen first.
(11:26):
Right, because if you have theright culture of the right
person, you can train them withthe skill sets that you want,
and everybody's going to have adifferent kind of strategy to
sell.
But but creating culture,there's got to be themes in that
that you see.
So can you talk about in personand then like remote teams.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, I work almost exclusively with remote teams
because I deal with people not100%, but probably 99% in the
high ticket sales space.
So coaches, consultants, coursecreators, people have a high
ticket offer and they realizevery quickly that they are the
bottleneck in their business.
So they're like well, I can'tdo all the marketing and all the
(12:04):
fulfillment and look after myclients and do operations and do
all the sales calls.
I need a sales rep.
So one of the one of the thingswe do is we help them find
those reps.
And then the second problemthat they run into is that they
go.
Well, okay, I don't actuallyknow how best to train a sales
rep.
I don't know how to keep themmotivated, I don't know, you
(12:26):
know when to whip them and whento reward them, you know, and
all of this kind of stuff.
So that's the second factor.
So what we do is we source,train and maintain remote sales
teams for people in the digitalhigh-ticket sales space Course
creators, coaches, that sort ofstuff.
So the problem number one iswhere do I find good reps?
(12:47):
Um, I'll post on social media.
I must have somebody in mynetwork, um, and the problem
with doing that is that the bestreps are not hanging around on
social media waiting for anoffer, they're already on an
offer.
Um, so that's the first issue.
The second issue is then theyget a rep on board.
They don't know how important adaily stand-up is.
They don't know how to developthat culture.
(13:09):
And that culture really stemsfrom good, old-fashioned, strong
leadership.
And that doesn't mean thatyou've got to be a bulldog every
day and issue beatdowns leftand right, but it does mean that
you need to be a strong leader.
It does mean that they need tolook at you as somebody that
they would you know, for want ofa better phrase follow into
battle.
(13:30):
And I think that's where a lotof creatives and entrepreneurs
because a lot of entrepreneursin my space are visionaries.
You know, they're great at whatthey do, they're good at
running marketing campaigns andall this kind of stuff, but then
, when it comes to leadership,they find themselves out of
their depth.
And that's very often wherewe'll step in.
We'll take over the leadershipon a fractional basis, we'll
help manage the team, we'll helptrain the team and we'll
(13:50):
certainly help supply goodquality reps into that team as
well.
So the two biggest issuesnumber one where do I find good
people?
Number two how do I step intoleadership and really be the
leader that my team needs toperform at a high level?
Speaker 1 (14:04):
and really be the leader that my team needs to
perform at a high level.
So when you're coming into theconversation with some of these
brands or high ticket salescoaching consultancy groups, you
know I can understand the zeroto one right.
I, I'm, I'm the operator and Ineed to add somebody.
Um, and how do I do that?
And I, and I certainly thinkthat there's probably even like
a, a course you could have oryou might have that, that that
(14:25):
offers that.
But if someone has a, alreadyhas a sales team, that's really
scary that they're burning.
Like they have a sales team,they've hired up a couple of
people and it might not beworking correctly.
Like and and they've addedpeople.
So now I mean, every time youdo a standup, like it's
(14:48):
everybody's hourly rate plusyour own, like in that call
Right and like that was thefirst thing that I noticed as,
as our team started to grow,when I had company-wide meetings
and my accountant's like going,this is the cost of that
meeting and this is the cost Ifyou talk for 10 minutes more
like, you know what I mean.
And and uh, I I think thatgetting a handle on your numbers
(15:08):
is is super important.
I think salespeople reallyappreciate numbers and comp
plans.
I feel like comp plan drivesthe right behavior.
And, to your point, uh, goodsales reps, uh, they're either
in an opportunity or someone'strying to pull them away from
opportunity, but they're notlooking for an opportunity um
ever, uh, unless they're part ofa program.
(15:30):
I guess that offers uhoutsource solutions of that
selling.
And, um, I don't know, can youkind of speak to uh some
examples, maybe some casestudies?
You know, just anonymize thedata of who it is, but like some
businesses you looked at andlike why they called you in what
(15:55):
you saw and and what were thekind of broad strokes of of
fixing their issues.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, yeah, certainly .
One particular company that I'mworking with at the moment had
a small sales team, so you know,a couple of setters, as we
would call them, people that areoutbound dialing leads, that
have come into the funnel butnot booked an appointment, and
then they had three closers.
They still have three closersand two setters.
The biggest issue by far isnobody had a handle on the
(16:24):
numbers and nobody had set intostone strict KPIs.
So this is what is expected ona daily, weekly, monthly basis.
If you are behind at the end ofweek one, why are you behind?
More importantly, what are yougoing to do to get in front?
Right, and so they were likewell, well, you know, we're just
(16:49):
supplying them with leads,we're just booking the leads
into the calendar, and that'sgreat.
But everybody needs structure,right, everybody.
We crave structure and you, youknow, you, you notice that when
somebody doesn't have structure, they kind of go off the rails,
they get lackadaisical, and Iknow this for myself.
(17:09):
If I have a structured diary,if I have a structured calendar,
I know what I'm doing hour tohour, day to day.
I'm far more productive.
If my calendar is open, I mightend up scrolling something or
there might be somethinginteresting on Netflix and I
become insanely unproductive.
So just helping business ownersunderstand how important
structure is, how important KPIsare, and those KPIs you know,
(17:34):
when we were talking previously,before we started recording
that, we were talking about MQLsand SQLs, all kinds of stuff
like that so, so important.
But also the KPIs that you setyour sales team to the standard
that you set for your sales team.
So, if we develop 100 leads andthe show rate is 70%, I am
(17:54):
expecting you, if you have, youknow, 70 conversations out of
every 100 leads.
This is the close rate that I'mexpecting.
If not, I want to know why.
Is it a skills-based issue?
Is it a skills-based issue?
Is it a culture-based issue?
Is it a lead issue?
Like, are we just attractingthe wrong people through the
funnel?
I tell every single team I workwith you know you can never
blame the leads.
It's always your fault.
You've just got to take it onthe chin.
(18:15):
However, having said that,sometimes it's the leads.
You know, if you've got oneparticular company I work with
at the moment, they're running,uh about, you know, thirty
thousand dollars a month throughmeta.
So you know, not not thebiggest ad spend, certainly not
the smallest and, um, they justcouldn't understand it.
They're like every single leadwe get through show rates,
(18:37):
terrible, you know, the closes,the setters, must be doing
something wrong.
It must be this, it must bethat.
And then when you, I said, okay, I'm going to do a funnel audit
, I'm going to go in, I'm goingto go and have a look.
I didn't need to get anyfurther than their front end ad,
and the front end ad was sayingthings like you can do this
with none of your own money.
Well, if you suggest that youdon't need any of your own money
(19:02):
, guess who you're going to pullinto your funnel?
People with no money.
So what we did is we justshifted the messaging yeah, the
message.
Yeah, just shifted the language.
I said look, the offer can staythe same because it's a great
offer, but stop talking aboutpassive income, because there's
no such bloody thing unless youwin the lottery.
Stop talking about you can dothis with no money passive
income, because there's no suchbloody thing unless you win the
lottery.
Stop talking about you can dothis with no money.
(19:26):
And the second we shifted themessaging.
Everything started to flowthrough the funnel, sales team
and now reporting back oh my god, the leads are.
The quality of the leads isinsane.
I'm speaking to people that canactually afford to buy our
product, you know so.
I think that's so important isjust having a handle, and you
said right at the start of thisconversation, sales and
marketing being intertwined.
The way I see it is that thetwo independent cogs inside of
(19:49):
the same mechanism and they'vegot to be married up because
otherwise you you could betrying to and I see that people
try and fix the wrong problem.
It's our setters, it's ourcloses.
They're not closing anybody,it's okay.
Well, they're not closinganybody, it's okay.
Well, let's take a look at aand end up at z and we'll figure
out what the problem is,because it's not always a sales
problem.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Sometimes it is a marketing problem so we do a lot
of like account-based sellingfor b2b clients.
Uh, it, it's essentially adressed up funnel um, there
might not be uh, setters, uh,but you, you're booking people
into business development people.
And there's a big complaint Alot of times when we go in on
(20:29):
the quality of the leads right,and we got to look at, well,
where are the leads coming from?
But, yes, what is your offer?
What are you fishing with?
What's the bait you're fishingwith?
And if you're fishing with thiskind of bait, you're going to
get this kind of fish right orwhatever.
And once you change that, likeI've seen it, small clients and
I'm talking multi-million dollardeals that, okay, take a long
(20:53):
time to close, but if you havethe right bait and also if
you're generating what we'retrying to help clients with,
generate the content to helpfeed that funnel.
So it's not the outboundsalespeople.
I mean, when we, when westarted hiring, we have kind of
a quasi like your accountmanager and you're a salesperson
, um, because when they sell youwe want the same person, kind
(21:15):
of that relationship where it'snot handed off, not saying
that's like the right, likelong-term solution, but it, it
works really well for us becauseyou want to talk to somebody
that's intelligent, like.
There's nothing worse, jeff,for me, when I get on a call,
thinking I'm going to like get ademo with a product, and it's
just like a setter to likequalify me right for like a lot
(21:36):
of the, and I and I just feellike a lot of that could be done
with AI or bots or or orsomething to speed up that
process.
And I understand, likeenterprise technology, they they
want to make sure to fill theday of of clothes and
salespeople.
Well, but I'm telling you rightnow, if you put out the right
(21:56):
content, if you put out theright offer, right Like, so
content's just an extension oftop of the funnel, of whatever
the ad is that you're running,and if you have that right ad,
you will get the right kind ofpeople and you and these
algorithms can find the rightkind of people.
If you've distilled your offerout, um, I mean, I've just like,
(22:16):
I think that, yes, they're theexact same thing, but sales has
to talk to marketing um and hasto understand it, and they have
to do that analysis.
Like, let's, let's look atthese leads.
Let's not just look at the topline number, like is this a
qualified lead.
How are you rating If this is aqualified lead or not?
Is this the kind of lead thatsales wants?
(22:37):
Because what sales does at thebigger companies?
They cherry pick the good leadsand then throw out everything
else.
Right, but salespeople which Iwould love for you to speak to
this and when we can just jumpinto AI after this.
But, um, like I, I have been asalesperson for a lot of my
(22:58):
career.
If you look on LinkedIn, I'vedone cold call selling.
I've done in-person selling.
I was classically trained as asalesperson and once I
understood digital marketing andthe one-to-many selling just
like this podcast we could talkto a lot of people.
There was no going back for me.
I'm not going to go.
(23:19):
I'm not going to do coldoutreach.
You know, I would much ratherhave someone come to me that is
interested in what I'm offeringand let me explain to you like,
how it might look to work withus.
Like, are we going to solveyour problem?
I would much rather spend mytime doing that where, where,
where, they're coming mydirection, versus that cold
(23:39):
outreach.
But that works.
It's a numbers game, right?
But also the more like enricheddata that you have to
understand where those problemsare, where those needs are,
where you prep your call list.
That's great.
It sounds like you're doing alot of let's run ads to a funnel
, let's get people interested inor get their email of some kind
(24:01):
of lead magnet, and then we'regoing to follow up with those
people that don't actually booka call and and try to get them
back into that funnel.
Is that kind of thestandardized process you work
with mostly?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah for sure.
Some some of my clients havelarge organic followings so they
don't actually need to run anykind of paid media, which is
great.
You know, half million millionpeople YouTube channels really
well, optimized, great, top offunnel, all that kind of stuff.
Other people are runningexclusively sort of meta and
YouTube ads.
So obviously the lead qualityis massively different.
(24:37):
Right, if there's an organiclead that's been watching your
channel for a number of monthsand they get on a sales call,
close rate is typically throughthe roof for those kind of leads
50, 60% and up.
Cold, and there's a definiteshift in the market recently.
Cold much, much harder.
Go back five, six years youcould run a meta ad, get a cold
lead through the funnel.
(24:57):
They watch a 10-minute VSL ormaybe a 60-minute webinar.
They book a sales call and 60minutes later you're taking
thousands of dollars off of them.
That's getting harder to do.
It's.
It's okay, you know.
And somebody said to me theother day they said, oh, yeah,
well, tony Robbins does it allthe time.
I'm like, yeah, dude, he's TonyRobbins, like he's got one of
the most recognized brands inthe world.
He could, he could run an ad ofhim sleeping and it would
(25:20):
convert, you know, but for thesmaller people who are not as
well known, and stuff like that,then I'm definitely seeing a
shift where I think we exist ina trust recession.
Yes, and it's because peoplehave been burnt, they've bought
bad programs, they've they've,you know, ended up being scammed
, whatever version of a scam.
(25:40):
Some people actually have theirmoney stolen.
Other people just end up in aprogram and go, oh, this is
trash.
Um, you know, I've got nosupport.
You know they're not actuallyteaching me to do what they say
they can, and so we exist nowwhere the marketplace lacks a
ton of trust.
So I'm finding what is workingis people going back to things
(26:02):
that work previously, thingslike live webinar, podcast,
stuff like that, things thatwill build a relationship with
somebody, because they requiremore nurturing, and the
psychology is almost like theyneed to go from thinking that
being able to get a result forthemselves is possible and they
(26:22):
need to get to the point wherethey think it's probable.
And it's getting harder andharder to do that with a 10
minute VSL and a 60 minute salescall.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Well, like, again, the trust recession.
I love that I might have toborrow that Um and uh I.
I mean there's click inflationand there's a trust recession
and you know there's juststagflation happening everywhere
, right, and I think that peopledo business with people they
know, like and trust, and it'sjust getting so noisy and
people's attention spans are allover the place.
(26:52):
I think that that's what someof that algorithm is meant to do
.
And then from TikTok and thenInstagram and YouTube shorts
have adopted that.
So there's just so much noiseand there's so much stuff Like
how do you cut through it?
It's it's trust.
It's like people want to knowyou're the trusted advisor and
that you're going toconsistently be there and they
(27:13):
continue to see your message andthey, they build that trust
over time and they want tofollow somebody that they
believe can help them.
Right, like they, that hasmaybe done it before or has
testimonials that they've helpedother people, but it's not
going to happen.
The first touch, like it's notgoing to.
So you're running that that ad.
(27:33):
I mean it's got to hit themlike 11 times or more before
they even get recognition of ofit and then they haven't spent
enough time with your content.
The long form sales letters didthat because you got to know
them through that point, butthey didn't have all that
baggage.
So I love the idea of webinars.
That's something actually we'regoing to start start doing here
(27:55):
shortly, cause I think thatthere's a lot of kind of longer
form explanation that can'thappen on shorts or social media
that if someone's trulyinterested, hey, like, this is
going to take a minute to unpack.
Um, I mean, what, what are you?
What are you seeing um workingthe best, or like.
Can you give an example of acase study of like okay, they
(28:18):
were doing that, they're runningthe ads and here are the
conversion rates.
And then we implemented thiswebinar, um, or uh, we
encouraged them to do xyz and,like it turned around their
business.
Because I think there's there'stwo people in my mind that I
think we're speaking to.
One is like I was going to do awebinar and you know people
(28:42):
give me comment if you, if youthink it's a good idea, but I
was going to run, uh, an ad onFacebook going what the WTF is
happening with my marketing,like, because everything's
changing and the things thatused to work are not working.
Okay, and everybody in therebeing inundated with all this
stuff and AI, which I do want toget into this.
(29:03):
This call after this is, butit's like so much stuff's
changing, so many things are notworking.
I'm busy running my businessand then you know, not just
click inflation, but like realinflation, like things are
getting more difficult, harderand time is just being stretched
so they don't know what there'sgoing on.
And then there's other peoplegoing, okay, like I need to make
(29:25):
a pivot.
Whatever I'm doing right now isnot what I want to be.
There's going to be a lot ofpeople, I think, with automation
and everything else, startingto lose jobs.
I was at a in Texas.
It's a little bit differentstory because we have a
president that's positivetowards, you know, energy.
But in New York and also inCalifornia, the tone was very
(29:47):
different of the level of theeconomy in the U S.
I don't know specifically UK,but I've I've read things online
.
It's it's kind of everywhere.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
There's all the old, true.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, right, like.
So I don't know, like, what dopeople do Right?
And and I want to I want to getinto the specific person you
can help the most, becausesomeone someone is looking for a
lifeline, someone's looking forsomeone to throw a life
preserver too and, um, I knowyour background and what you've
(30:20):
done and, like, I want thatperson to hear it you know, sure
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
So typically if somebody has, I guess, two, two
types of people, mainly numberone, somebody who's figured out
marketing, but now sales orsales team is the bottleneck and
they're like you said, clickinflation.
Cost of leads is getting moreexpensive, booking a book call
is more expensive, so they'relike well, how do we get the
(30:47):
team to convert higher?
So that's one person.
Another person is maybe whatthey were doing previously
worked for them.
Specifically one client that Ihave at the moment.
They'd run a VSL for thelongest time, metarad VSL
application call booking settersreach out to the leads in the
funnel, simple work, great.
(31:08):
They were doing half a milliona month and all of a sudden,
half a million a month went to400K, went to 300K, went to 150K
, but now obviouslyoperationally they've still got
all of the hard costs of abusiness that is at half a
million a month.
So they had to cut really,really hard and really fast.
And with that particular clientI I had an inkling.
(31:28):
When I looked at their leadsand I looked at their sales
process and all the rest of it.
I said I think you're dealingwith a trust recession based on
bloat in your market there's alot of people talking about the
same thing.
There's a lot of peoplespouting.
You know, everybody's got aunique mechanism, you know.
And so the avatar isessentially sat there thinking,
well, who the hell do I listento?
All the price points areroughly the same.
Sounds like they all do thesame sort of thing One-to-one
(31:50):
coaching and all the rest of it.
And so I said, if, if, if, myhunch is true and we're dealing
with a trust recession here,then let's take that VSL and
instead let's run a two dayevent as a test.
Right, just a test.
It doesn't mean you have to doit, but we're going to do a two
day event, two hours on a Friday, two hours on a Saturday
morning to catch the peopleafter work.
And, you know, saturday morningthey can do two hours instead
(32:13):
of mowing the lawn, whatever itis.
And they did.
That event got a still runningmeta ads, got a hundred people
in the room and off the back ofthe event.
15 of them bought, 12 of thempiffed, paid in full, so they
were like holy cow.
So every hundred people we getinto our funnel, 15 of them buy.
(32:34):
And and you know, whatever thepercent, yeah, whatever, yeah,
yeah, 12 out of 15 is.
I don't know what it is, mymath is horrible 80 something
without a calculator, I don'tknow but a lot, a high
proportion paid in full.
And that was the indicator thatit was trust in the market,
specifically in their market itwas.
(32:55):
It was um becoming sooversaturated and that made all
of the difference.
So they went from 10 minute VSLto live two day event.
We've now just implemented that.
They run a live webinar everysingle week on a Monday and
they're back up to a half amillion again and we're we're
scaling up from there.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
So just a interesting piece of data to bring into
this that I've, I've, I've seenpersonally.
Okay, Um, I don't think peoplesee this when they run ads,
right, Cause you're just forcinglike, if you're running meta
ads, it is shown in that the adscosts more over time.
Does that make sense?
But you're throwing so muchmoney at these ads, You're just
(33:36):
forcing it to be shown to people.
Google or, sorry, meta, istrying to tell you hey, these
ads aren't working as well, thismessaging is not working as
well, and so we're going tocharge you more.
We're going to show it to lesspeople right Now.
If you do that organically, ifyou post a commercially based,
creative, whatever you'reputting together, you'll see it
in the, the, the, the engagementyou know.
(33:58):
You'll see it in in how manypeople it gets showed to.
If you're looking at thedashboard and like creator view,
Okay and always, just how itworks is create a commercial
post Don't typically do as well.
Now I've found a way, likebecause I've been playing with
it to to incorporate it in whereI don't know if it gets um
(34:19):
categorized differently by thealgorithm so it shows it to more
people.
Um, because even highengagement posts posts, if
they're commercial intense there.
The algorithm doesn't like toshow it, so so there, I think
that there's a way of of howit's categorized to find a
better post.
But if you find a post that hasdone good organically, then put
(34:42):
the money behind that.
Okay, that's one piece that Iwould like to bring into that
I've seen.
And then the other piece isthis has been for years Okay,
and I just don't think peoplehave noticed it, but now people
are starting to have to pay alot more attention because you
can't just force things throughanymore.
On meta, for example, peoplenever want to share a sales
(35:04):
related post, but they willshare an event related post all
day long, they will engage withit, they will like it, and so I
think that that feeds into evenkind of a broader expectation of
what works has always worked.
It's just more important towork better now because you need
those those higher conversionrates.
More important to work betternow because you need those those
higher conversion rates.
All right, so I want totransition into what are you
(35:28):
seeing now?
People leverage with AI.
Where do you think it's going?
Just what are your overallviews on AI in general in the
sales process?
Because I've seen just someinsane stuff that the future of
agents is going to be incredible.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
It is, I agree.
So there's a couple ofdifferent areas where I utilize
AI.
One area is because I work withmultiple teams.
One of the most importantthings as a manager or a
fractional sales manager to dois to do call reviews right.
You've got to understand whatpeople are saying.
Where are they struggling?
How good are the leads?
How is the pitch landing?
All of this kind of stuff Very,very hard to do.
(36:05):
So I trained a GPT that I canessentially take the transcript
from every single sales call andI can feed it into a GPT and
the GPT will analyze it as meand give me a blow by blow.
This is what needs improvement.
This is what was good.
This is how the pitch landed.
It will analyze how theprospect felt.
(36:27):
It's not a hundred percentaccurate but what it means is
that yeah, I can feed all ofthis data into the GPT.
It will spit out all the dataand then I can just put it in a
graph and I can say, okay, ourbiggest bottleneck at the moment
is the pitch.
The pitch is not landing.
People are.
They're humming and hawing atthe end and you know, when
they're asked a kind of tempcheck question, how does that
sound?
(36:47):
You know, kind of one to 10scale one horrible, 10, great.
They're like like yeah, soundsokay.
I guess I'd give it like a sixor a seven.
Okay, we need to revise thepitch like yesterday.
Do you know what I mean?
So that's that's one way we useai.
The other way we use ai is Ihave a data scraper for
specifically for people thatneed help with marketing.
I have a data scraper.
(37:08):
It's got about 200 million datapoints from Google and it is
specifically looking for peoplethat type in certain search
phrases and then we pull all ofthat data and we then upload it
into our clients meta ads as anexample.
This is not in my niche, but ifI owned a watch store and I
(37:34):
sold Rolexes, we can pull all ofthe data points from Google for
people that have searched foryou know, day, date, day, just.
They just for sale.
Rolex for sale buy a Rolex, allof these things, and then we
can upload that into the metadashboard.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
So now the ads are only going to be displayed to
people that have used thosesearch terms inside of the last
seven days are those on site orare you scraping ip addresses,
like I mean, I know that in theuk there's a lot more rules
around, uh, like cookie listtargeting and pixeling.
Um, how are you getting thatdata?
Are you buying that from pvvlists?
(38:11):
Or like how are?
How are you acquiring that dataon the front end apollovv lists
?
Or like how are?
How are you acquiring that dataon the front end apollo or
something?
Speaker 2 (38:17):
like that.
We've got two ways.
Number one is a data aggregatorand the other is ips.
Uh, and you're right, you dohave to.
You do have to be cautiousabout how you use the data, but
we're, we're, we're tracking ipsand we're um, we're purchasing
the data from aggregators,essentially.
But what typically happens whenyou upload that into Meta is
(38:39):
because now your ads are onlybeing shown because it's hashed.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, it's a lookalike audience Basically,
it's a custom audience Literally.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
But the most hyper likely audience to buy, because
we all know that Meta isinterruption marketing.
Right, People are scrolling,scrolling, scrolling.
Oh, that looks good.
Well now, if you put your ad infront of somebody that's looked
specifically for your productas, as an example, we just
implemented this with my clientin the real estate coaching
space.
They teach people how to, youknow, do HMOs and all this kind
(39:07):
of stuff.
Well, now, the data is onlyonly displaying the ads to
people that have indicatedthey're interested in HMOs, so
you're getting people furtheralong the awareness graph.
Instead of being problem aware,we're now managing to get
people who are solution aware.
So when they see the ad,they're like, oh, this is
exactly what I was looking for.
So you know, obviously theyclose at a much higher
(39:29):
percentage.
So those are the two ways Ispecifically use.
It is analysis and data, andthe note-taking bots to capture
it.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
We're pushing it to GPT right now basically some
custom prompts to spit out somerecommendations, and then we
push it to the person thatcreated the call on our team.
So whoever created the callgets an email report just
automated.
Here's what you could do better.
I'm sure we can improve thatand we could enhance the prompts
.
Created the call gets an emailreport just automated.
(40:17):
Here's what you could do better.
I'm sure we can improve thatand we could enhance the prompts
or even utilize like a customGPT that you create, where I'm
seeing a marketplace there whereto use this GPT it's five bucks
a month or 10 bucks a month orwhatever it is where there's a.
I think the business ischanging right.
I think everything's changing.
It's kind of like internet 2.0sort of thing and there's going
to be so many businesses thatare built off the back of this.
(40:37):
But you have to shift withwhat's going on.
I actually had a couple of callsthat were actually inbounds,
that needed marketing of sales,coaching organizations, and I
was like this is what I'm doingfor my team of like three people
.
You know you could create a lotof leverage in this to utilize
(41:00):
this at scale and if you thinkabout a 3% improvement, right,
they read the email, theyactually implement it.
Because you can upload, evenlike spin selling or whatever
you're using as your salesmetric.
It can give you recommendationsbased on that and if you're
constantly getting thoserecommendations and you just do
that, the leverage off of thatcould be exponential.
(41:22):
Of of those percentages, and Ifeel like that's what people
want is like, okay, jeff, andyou're like, hey, I don't have
time to work with all theseclients, but you could utilize
my GPT and we could set this upfor you, and blah, blah, blah,
and it becomes like a SaaS sortof thing.
There's a business right there,right, uploading the data,
(41:45):
absolutely Like the hashing data.
I mean, facebook knows moreabout us than we know.
Like everybody thinks the adslisten and I do think on maybe
some of the platforms in theterms of service, they are
listening.
But there is ways to protectyourself and Apple, for example,
does a pretty good job oflimiting some of that stuff.
Now Google, the phone is calledthe Pixel.
(42:08):
Okay, they're making fun.
These engineers are like Easteregging you Like.
You are, like we're doing thisto capture everything that's
happening, to sell you ads andeverybody's on their phone all
the time, and and so I thinkthis stuff is is super powerful,
and to be able to uh utilizethat data in a way that you're
not just running cold traffic toeverybody but you're only
(42:29):
showing like a billboard to uhthe person that potentially
wants to buy it becomes thatmuch more effective.
Your marketing goes that muchfurther.
I think those things arephenomenal.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
For the teams that we rolled that out with Matt
across the board, the least soit cut the CPA, obviously
because the ads are morerelevant.
The least it cut the CPA forany of those.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Those teams was 40 and the most was about 70, so
they went from you know, doubleyour money right there.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Cpa was, yeah, cpa was like two grand down to less
than a thousand bucks, just byusing the correct data yeah, no,
I think this is great.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Okay, I want to kind of open up the floor.
I've've covered the things thatI think are super relevant.
I'm sure that there's blindspots in what I'm seeing,
because I'm more heavily on themarketing side than the sales
side.
What are things that we didn'ttalk about in this conversation
that you think would be relevantto just kind of add in there,
as we're kind of starting towind down?
Speaker 2 (43:31):
I think there's a big shift in the way we sell
specifically coaches,consultants, course creators and
it used to be quite anaggressive selling style and I
don't think that's going to cutit much longer.
In fact, I know because I lookat the data every day.
It's not cutting it.
Now, people you said itperfectly.
(43:53):
You said people want to know,like and trust, and I agree with
that, and I think the mostimportant element of those three
is trust.
If somebody trusts that you canget them the result, they don't
necessarily have to know youparticularly well, sometimes
they don't even have to like you, but if they trust that you can
get them the result, they'll belike okay, I'm on board.
They'll be like okay, I'm onboard.
(44:17):
And I think the way that peoplesell in the, in the kind of you
know 2020 style, is no longerworking anywhere near as well as
it did, and people have tounderstand how important
building trust is.
And the question then becomeswell, how do I build trust on a
sales call?
And it's everything to do withthat communication with that
person, and it's almost likegoing back to having a good, old
(44:38):
fashioned human interaction.
Stop looking at it as a quoteunquote sales call.
Have a conversation with thatperson.
Do you need to follow aframework?
Yeah, sure, but make it aconversation, make sure you
connect with the person, makesure you're relatable to them.
Don't make them feel likethey're trapped in a sales
conversation and I think thequicker people can pivot back to
(45:03):
I don't.
I suppose the easiest way toexplain it would be a
consultative type of sale.
You know, consultative, aconsultative.
I think the faster they canmake that adjustment away from
this.
You know, kind of bro-y hardcloser, you know, and like, I
don't mind anybody beingaggressive in sales.
(45:24):
I've been in sales for nearly20 years.
I don't mind aggression, butthe aggression needs to be
interpreted as aggressivelygoing after the deal rather than
overtly being outwardlyaggressive, because that is not
cutting it any longer.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
So, so when I, uh, I asked my team to get reviews
right and I say you can only askfor a view that you've earned,
right, and I think that goes thesame thing with with the
selling, um, you gotta know whatyou're talking about and you
gotta know what that ask is, andif you don't feel like you've
(45:59):
earned it, you you shouldn't doit.
Um, and I I like that.
I think.
I think that that's a goodtakeaway.
I've always said no, I cantrust because, um, I've always
kind of approached it from theconsultative, like I want to
work.
If I'm going to work with you,I want to like like this has got
to be a good experience forboth of us, sort of thing.
Um, but there are definitely adifferent kind of people out
there and, depending on whatyou're selling, I feel like have
you seen a difference?
(46:20):
I feel like the real funnily,funnily looking stuff online,
right, like with all the like,different, like emojis, check
marks, like I feel like peoplejust see that and then they
immediately like put up a walland like they, they've just had
it, they bought it before, itdidn't work or whatever, and
(46:42):
there's all this baggage, and assoon as they see some of that
stuff, they just immediately putup a wall, and so the thing
that I have to continue toremind myself is there's
somebody on the end of thisconversation, like it's easier
to talk to you, but if you'redoing like a, a video where
you're just talking to the mic,you know you got to imagine a
(47:03):
person being there, and the moreyou can connect with somebody,
uh, the, the more, the the themessage is going to be
communicated.
Because if, if that messagedoesn't get communicated or
you're just broadcasting right,and I feel like there's a lot of
people that are just I'm goingto be louder and I'm just going
to broadcast more I don't know,I haven't seen that work as well
(47:26):
organically on social media and, um, I think that it's just
that's how people are handlingthe noisiness of the market.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I'm just going to be louder and I'm just like yeah,
yeah, yeah, I think it comesback down to understanding your
avatar.
You know, like you said, theemoji check mark.
You know fast paced stuff.
Well, that's great If you wantto attract to probably an 18 to
23 year old, but if your avataris not 18 to 23, that's probably
(47:57):
not going to cut it.
You probably want to dosomething a little more reserved
.
You know, and certainly with acouple of companies that I work
with, they've had that style ofmarketing.
They've run ads like that.
They've, you know, seen thecost per click go up, the cost
CPA go through the roof and I'vesaid, said, look, refilm that
ad, but just do it selfie style,just do it walking along by the
(48:17):
, by the beach, through the park, whatever it is, and just use
the same script, but just riffthe camera immediate, lift in
results, immediate, and I thinkpeople are getting back to just
wanting something that is realand a bit more natural and a bit
more believable, rather thanflashing lights, neon signs and
emoji check marks.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
I love it.
Okay, how do people get intouch with you?
Give your pitch, I think peopleknow you know what you're
talking about and you've helpeda lot of great people and
companies, and so I I just wantpeople, if they need your
(48:56):
services, to know who they areand how to get in touch with you
.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Sure, easiest way is probably LinkedIn.
So that's at Jeff Ketterer, g E, o, f, f, k, e, t T E R E R.
Although that's not where mybiggest audience is, that's
probably the platform I favor.
Um and uh, they can reach outto me there for sure.
Um, I've I've also gotsomething that for anybody that
(49:21):
wants it um, the elite salesteam OS blueprint.
So anybody that's currentlyrunning a sales team.
I did a masterclass and um,just laid bare some of the
things that I see improve salesteam.
So if anybody wants thatmasterclass, they can just
contact me on LinkedIn.
Just shoot me the message team25 and I'll send that across.
(49:42):
But, yeah, probably LinkedIn atJeff Ketter is the easiest way
to get.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Do you have the automation set up on TikTok or
whatever, wherever?
You said you're big, that ifthey put team 25, it just
automatically sends it to them.
Do you know what?
Or are you team 25?
Speaker 2 (49:53):
it just automatically sends it to you uh, do you know
what?
Speaker 1 (49:55):
or are you manually?
Speaker 2 (49:55):
doing it.
I'm just curious.
I do have a many chat set up,but I do not have it set up on
for that, and the reason forthat is because you know, I
appreciate what you're doing, um, and I I know you know,
building what you've built here,matt, is not an easy task.
So I also want to encourageeverybody to go, and anybody
that's listening, go and andgive a.
If you've listened this far, goand give them a five-star
(50:16):
review, because what you'redoing is great and you're
helping a lot of people and it'snot easy to do.
So I appreciate you for that.
But I do not have automationset up on LinkedIn.
That is manual and that'sbecause those are the kind of
people that I want to connectwith a little bit more closely
and I don't just want themhaving going through a many chat
funnel.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
So yeah, and and LinkedIn has some rules around
some of that, so you got to becareful of what automations?
And you don't want to getbanned.
So, um, but yeah, I, I wouldlove to uh get that file.
What is it Team?
Say it again.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
Elite team OS blueprint.
So if you just send me the wordteam 25 on LinkedIn.
I'll send it All.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
everybody go get that .
I think it's a great resource.
Okay, jeff, thanks so much forcoming on.
Hopefully, everybody found thisconversation helpful.
I love having realconversations with people and
not having people come on justpitch their services because,
well, we're in a trust recession.
So thank you for your time,jeff, and sharing your wisdom.
(51:15):
Yes, if you like this, if youneed some help, if you want to
leverage the most powerful,largest tool on the planet the
internet, and everything that'shappening in with these search
algorithms on all social mediachannels, reach out to EWR for
more revenue in your business.
My name is Matt Bertram.
(51:37):
Bye-bye for now.
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