August 18, 2025 • 57 mins
The SEO landscape is shifting dramatically with the rise of AI search and entity-based relationships, creating new challenges and opportunities for marketers. We explore how traffic patterns are changing as top-ranking sites lose clicks to AI overviews while brand searches increase, and discuss the critical importance of entity relationships in modern search strategy.
• Entity SEO requires mapping relationships between data points like organizations, places, authors, and products
• Structured data remains extremely valuable, acting as a "kindergarten reading level" translation of content for search engines
• AI adoption in search is currently low (1-2% for Google's AI Mode), but preparing now gives marketers a competitive advantage
• Many industries haven't yet felt significant impacts from AI search, creating a false sense of security
• Technical SEO fundamentals remain crucial. Ensure your site is crawlable before pursuing advanced AI strategies
• Large organizations like Apartments.com are integrating AI into products and operations while mapping complex entity relationships
• Content pruning and topical focus are increasingly important as search engines evaluate expertise more carefully.
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Guest Contact Information:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zacharychahalis/
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The Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing podcast is a podcast hosted by Internet marketing expert Matthew Bertram. The show provides insights and advice on digital marketing, SEO, and online business.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started, howdy.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome back to another fun-filled episode of
the Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, matt Bertram.
I am just having a great timehere.
I know we've been releasingthese weekly.
We've been recording aboutthree podcasts a week, so a lot
of great content to come.
I got Zach here fromapartmentscom, who used to be
(00:39):
over there at iPoleRank, andwe've been just getting to know
each other and talking about alot of things.
He was just at PubCon and wewere catching up on kind of
what's going on because thingsare changing so quickly.
And Zach, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Awesome.
Well, let's just kind of pickup where we got, where we left
off before.
I just thought we would includeeverybody in the conversation.
What were the things that youwere picking up from PubCon of
things that's maybe changedsince, let's say, seo week and I
know SMX Advanced just happened.
So I mean, things are justrapid fire right now.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, it seemed like folks are still maybe struggling
or grappling with how to thinkabout the impact of AI in
general, of engine searches andthings like that.
It was interesting.
There's definitely a lot ofconflicting opinion on the
impact of what's going to happenhere, how we should look at
(01:40):
things, how we should look atdata points, KPRs, things like
that.
But yeah, it's.
I think we're still maybe at acrossroads a little bit in the
industry where folks are not100% certain on the direction to
go.
But I also think that's maybe asubset of folks not necessarily
knowing how to evolve as thesearch engines are evolving.
(02:04):
I think a lot of folks mightget stuck in the legacy ways of
thinking about search engineoptimization and not thinking
about the gender of engines ornot thinking about the impact of
things like AI mode that arecoming into play.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, I think everybody's going to wake up
with AI mode when that.
When that hits and the 10 bluelinks are gone, I mean they're
pretty much like pushed so fardown the page at this point that
I'm seeing this inversecorrelation between you get to
the top spot in Google and youlose traffic, because now you're
in the overviews or you're inthe people also ask, and so like
(02:41):
traffic's going down.
But then my brand searches fora number of my clients are going
up, right, and then I'm likegoing, okay, how do I track
attribution across all thesedifferent platforms?
And we're we're having aquarterly meetings with clients
right now and you know, I'mstarting to talk about Reddit
and like the informationarchitecture that you're you're
(03:03):
you're needing to build, theinformation architecture that
you're you're needing to build,and I've I've had a couple
clients.
They're not ready yet, likethey're not ready yet and and
they're not, they're notchanging.
And I think a lot of people arestill playing that old game and
luckily, a lot of that old gameif you do the traditional stuff
really well does have apositive impact on the new game.
(03:23):
So I think it was like what wasit when Google AdWords?
They keep changing theinterfaces.
You just wait because you knowhow to use it the old way.
I feel like it took me a realminute to get immersed in what's
(03:45):
happening and to understandwhere we're going, because it's
like search just broke out ofthe website and it's just
scattered all over the place.
It's running in all thesedifferent directions and you're
like what do I do first?
What is the impact?
What is the waiting?
You know how should I thinkabout this?
And I think I don't know.
(04:06):
Did you hear people talkingabout different frameworks?
I know what is it.
Malik from Search Atlas had acouple different frameworks that
he was talking about.
I want to bring him on.
He was talking about like ascholar framework of like here's
how to look at the content, andhe came up with a new waiting
(04:28):
system for, like link power orsomething like that, and it was
like an aggregated score but itwas like here's all the
different things and this isreally what we should be looking
at.
So it could be a little bit ofmarketing, I guess, but I think
it was still hitting on all theright things.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, I see that as a general theme and I think
there's just several differentways that folks have been
approaching it, whether they'rethinking about the value of an
entity and the value of I hateto say, page rank, because
that's, I mean, still kind of intheory, a metric that folks do
look at, but like thinking abouthow authority is flowing
(05:11):
between entities and how you tiethe relationships to one
another.
I'm just seeing it referred toin a lot of different ways and
in some cases I'm seeing it morethought out.
Um, there's definitely a lot offolks in the SEO space that are
kind of taking this to the nextlevel and folks doing it kind
of more at an elementary basistoo, where they're just kind of
beginning to think about theidea of vector embeddings and
(05:33):
you know how certain pieces ofcontent relate to one another.
Query Fana is one that I seealso being thought about in, I
guess I'll say, different levelsof success and different levels
of depth so far.
But I think the folks that arethinking a little bit more
intricately about that areprobably going to do better in
(05:53):
the long run.
But I do agree with you I'm inan interesting spot in how I've
adopted myself here, because thereal estate space hasn't
changed as rapidly as some otherareas in search engines.
So, you know, with things likee-commerce, with travel, with
(06:14):
news and editorial type stuff.
There's a bigger impact of AIon that.
We've certainly seen someimpacts of AI overviews, ai mode
generative engines impactingsome traffic numbers and
visibility and that's justeveryone seeing that.
But I don't see something likean AI mode as frequently in the
(06:36):
real estate space.
I see it for something like hey, what's the average rent of a
two-bedroom apartment in NewYork City?
And in instances like that likeI see us ranked number one
traditionally and as the topsource in the AI overview, I
still see those things bringingtraffic to the site.
I'm not sure how much that'sbeen impacted, given you know
(06:59):
these pages are maybe a littlebit newer on our side and didn't
get the full weight of pre-AIO,but we're not getting AI
overviews on our commercial typequeries just yet.
Or if we see Googleexperimenting with them, they're
kind of bad, I mean.
I know folks are going to besurprised by AI overviews giving
bad answers, but like we'veseen instances where it'll be
(07:22):
like, hey, I want to find anapartment in Atlanta.
Oh well, we recommend that yougo visit apartmentscom and these
other websites.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Like cool, I could have saved that space, but yeah
implying, I guess and I want to,I want to ferret it out a
little bit more is you youmentioned this early on too like
people don't understand theimpact yet and really it's only
(07:52):
a fraction of the overall searchfrom Google.
Right, it's just a fraction,but it's where things are going,
is what people are looking atand concerned about, and and
that's kind of the feedback wegot from a number of our clients
that were in industries thathaven't been impacted is like,
hey, um, like I'm not seeingmuch change and I'm currently
(08:12):
still using Google and you know,like I think we're good and and
and I, I think that there'sthat bell curve, I guess of, um,
you know, early adopters andand, and the transition is going
to take longer.
Like I remember my mom, mymom's one of the first employees
at Microsoft, and uh, she, shetold me I, I wanted to get set
(08:33):
up those like before red box,the red box things, and I wanted
to put, I wanted to get thoseset up everywhere, cause I saw
like a bunch of pharmacies and,uh, grocery stores and have them
, and my mom was like, no, don'tdo that.
Like everything's going online,everything's going to be
streaming in like a couple ofyears and Redbox is still
holding strong.
I mean they can just raisetheir prices.
(08:55):
I mean maybe they've owned themarket and there's not a bunch
of players anymore.
I get it.
But I mean, and it will go theway, I guess, of Blockbuster
eventually, but there's a longtail on this stuff and if you're
focused on the traditionalstuff, then does it matter that
much?
Now I guess people arerepositioning, like getting
(09:16):
positioning ahead of it.
Is that kind of what yourthought is?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I think so.
Yeah, your thought is.
I think so.
Yeah, I mean, my long-termprediction is that AI mode will
become more of a defaultexperience down the line.
At least with the last adoptionnumbers I was seeing, though,
it was only hovering around like1% to maybe somewhere between
1% and 2%.
Now, given it's been two orthree weeks, and that's with
(09:45):
Google heavily pushing the heytry, ai mode thing.
I'm getting the pushnotifications all the time
whenever I try and use Google orChrome on my phone.
I did see that it looks like thenew version of Chrome I just
saw a couple of folks talkingabout this on social media is
now incorporating AI mode as anoption in the URL bar.
So I am curious if thiscontinues to result in more
(10:06):
adoption there.
But I do think maybe some folksare a little anxious and
putting themselves ahead of likethe cart before the horse type
of thing.
Right, I'm sure there areinstances where folks want to
start thinking about how thisworks and how to get involved
with it.
But the adoption rate yeah, Imean to your point.
(10:28):
We're kind of in the beginningof that adoption curve where you
have the early adopters thatare doing it, some of the folks
that I've seen outside of thespace and this is just my own
personal experiences in talkingwith folks kind of saying like
hey, I'm not really enjoyingthis, I'm not getting what I
need out of it.
If they're looking for morecommercial-based intent, if
(10:48):
they're just asking it aquestion or they're kind of
treating it like a conversationengine, it's been doing okay,
but I'm just not seeing folks goout of that system yet.
And then you run into the issueyou mentioned this earlier
where attribution is still kindof questionable.
I know Google fixed theanalytics measurement of
(11:09):
attribution that might be comingin from AI mode, but there's
still limited opportunity toclick out of that into a website
or just brings you into anotherGoogle experience.
And we're seeing the same thingwith other generative engines
as well, where some do okay onattribution and some don't.
But yeah, I do think folks arefeeling the pressure to adopt
(11:31):
and I think it's going to taketime to get there.
I think you've got time beforeAI mode becomes the standard.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, I think we're in an echo chamber.
I agree, we're in an echochamber and I agree.
And I, I literally ask everyperson I hang out with socially
what they're doing with ai, like, like, what are you doing with
chat gbt?
Or, you know, have you used anyof the other stuff?
Right?
And chat gbt is a lot morepersonable than like, for, for
(12:04):
example, right when, when, when,when you're when you're talking
to it, and like, how are youusing it?
What are you using it for?
And then, um, you know, therethere's some data that I I was
pretty shocked.
Uh, some people are leveragingit too much and they're like,
losing brain capacity becauseright I just I, just you know,
(12:24):
and so I don't think people knowwhat to think about everything.
I saw that me incorporate itinto everything I do and my
workflow and I just don't seethat transition happening.
(12:48):
I mean, I do think that on theenterprise level, I'm curious
what, like at the executive teamof a large company, how are
they talking about incorporating, maybe, ai?
If we even remove ourself fromsearch for a second and just say
there's this thing called AIand artificial intelligence and
(13:09):
deep learning that we can takedata warehouses and do all kinds
of cool stuff with it nowgenerally, where we're not
having to label everything andit's a lot more user-friendly
when you're up with applied AI,like it's a lot more
user-friendly like when you'reup with applied AI, what?
What are big corporations likeapartmentscom Like?
(13:29):
How are they thinking about it?
I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, I think I'll speak as generally as I can.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Talk just as you and what you think, and don't share
anything that you can't share.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I think it comes down to a couple of things.
Right, you're, you're one.
You're trying to figure out howto integrate AI in the products
.
I think that seems to be thehot thing where everyone's
integrating AI in some form.
I see a lot of companies doingthis.
Some are doing it in aninteresting way, others are
doing it in I'll call them,lackluster approaches.
You know, speaking forourselves, you know we've
(14:05):
announced some products on thefront end where it's a
conversational approach tofinding a rental, finding a
house.
We also co-star owns homescom,so we have folks that are
working on that side where youcan kind of speak into it and,
in theory, it understands.
You know what you're asking for, what amenities you're asking
(14:25):
for, and then can apply thosefilters dynamically.
So that's been an aspect.
We also have independentlandlords and operators that
exist, so we've been trying tocreate products to help them, I
would say, complete theirlistings and make them more
successful in finding a renteron their side them more
successful in finding a renteron their side.
(14:46):
So, like we have the ability ofhelping you leverage AI to
create a property descriptionbased on looking at some of the
images of your property.
So there's aspects like that.
I also think there's a goodamount of conversation around
how to integrate AI intoefficiency and how to leverage
that to be better at what you'redoing on a day to day basis.
That's resulting in kind of acouple of interesting things.
(15:12):
I see folks that have dove intoit and they understand like,
hey, this allows me to bequicker at what I do.
It may still have errors.
We need to account for that andbe responsible for what we're
doing with it.
But then I also see a lot offolks that are scared of it,
kind of taking their jobs, andthat's a reasonable concern.
I'm not going to argue withthat.
What I've been trying to tellfolks is and maybe a random
(15:33):
aside here I have a weirdfascination with engineering of
certain things, including likecruise ships and theme parks and
things like that.
But there was a good documentaryon like how they built Disney
World like many, many, manyyears ago, and this analogy has
kind of stuck with me.
But they were talking about,hey, all the animators that were
programming these rides wereprogramming them manually and
(15:57):
they're sitting there andthey're getting recorded in
their motions and things likethat.
But it came out with this boxthat allowed them to program,
what was going on and what youwanted the right to do.
And a lot of folks wereconcerned hey, this is just
going to take my job, I'm notgoing to, I'm not using this, I
don't want to get involved withit.
And they started havingconversations with those folks
going hey, this allows you totake some of the menial aspects
(16:21):
of what you're trying to do on aday-to-day basis out of it so
that you can focus on the thingsthat do matter.
So I see ai being adopted.
I think it will be adopted morereadily in the enterprise space
to improve efficiency, whetherthat's helping to do um, initial
coding or even coding what'swhatsoever.
(16:42):
I know google this point.
I think they stayed in theirlast earnings call.
They're using AI to write abouthalf their code right now,
somewhere around that number,and it's self-improving, right,
right.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So what is it?
Alpha, or I forget what theycall the engine, but it's
self-improving, so it's writingthe code and then it's improving
upon the code that's written toreduce what was it like data
storage by 7% or some numberacross all of their
infrastructure, which is thatlike a huge amount in savings?
(17:17):
Yeah, or something like that?
Speaker 1 (17:18):
yeah, yeah, they're going to keep trying to figure
out ways of incorporating itinto the day-to-day process and
be more efficient.
I do think folks still need tobe careful with how they do
integrate it or how they rely onit.
I still, although it continuesto get better, I see
hallucinations, I see badrecommendations.
(17:39):
I was talking to somedevelopers the other day where
it's kind of recommendinginefficient ways of handling
some aspects of coding thateither result in additional
latency or, say, low timeeffects or things like that.
So I just encourage folks tonot be relying on it but use it
to help improve your efficiency.
(17:59):
And even I was having aconversation with one of my team
members this morning where, hey, we're trying to figure out how
we organize this data, that wehave to ingest it into our
platform just more effectively,and we kind of sat there going
all right, we could regex thisand probably get it 90% right,
or we can stick in chat GPT andsee if it can do any better.
And it did.
(18:19):
I would say it got 99% of theway there.
A couple of things that wedidn't like but that improved
the efficiency.
I don't have someone sittingthere and going through multiple
thousands of lines of aspreadsheet trying to
recalculate something.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, no for sure.
I feel like we're making thisan AI podcast, which is awesome
because I think that that's whateverybody cares about and
everybody's trying to orienttheir head around it.
I think we covered quite a bitof information already.
I wanted to walk back to intoTSEO.
(18:54):
I really haven't.
I really haven't covered thatas well as I should.
We are working on entity SEOand schema markup internally.
I am a customer of WordLift.
I want to get the CEO on andwe're early in this process,
(19:17):
right, because we were doing alot of manual schema and
starting to build, like, theseassociations.
But I would love for, like you,to kind of map out you know
what dabbling with it looks likeand then what advanced looks
like, and just give people thatunderstanding of we're now
moving from like word to vector,like keyword association or
(19:39):
even semantic search torelationships and you know how
the knowledge graph plays intoit, because, I mean, you see it
at such a broad level and andit's really important to
understand all these differentassociations of, well, what
makes up an apartment, right,and and I would love for you,
like, if you know, you couldspeak to us like we're one of
(20:04):
your team members and we're newand you're educating us on what
this is and why it's important.
I think that'd be prettyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah.
So the way that we look atentity perspective is we're
trying to tie together all ofthe information about what we
work with on a day-to-day basis.
So an entity could be definedas the organization of
apartmentscom.
It could be defined as a placehey, I'm talking about
apartments for rent in San Diego.
(20:32):
It could be defined as anauthor folks that are writing
our content and contributing tothat.
There are multiple differentways of defining and thinking
about what an entity is and howwe explain it to the search
engine in the form of structureddata so I'll come back to that
in a second but also in how wetie it together from a
(20:53):
relationship conceptualperspective.
So I talked a little bit aboutthis actually in my PubCon talk
last week, where, if you land onthat Apartments for Rent in San
Diego page that we have,there's contextual linking that
exists, driven by the entitiesthat we've defined that say, hey
, you're in San Diego, but a lotof folks tend to look at these
(21:14):
neighborhoods.
So here are the neighborhoodsand we're trying to tie the
relationship to say, hey, thisneighborhood is a part of this
place of San Diego which is apart of the state which is being
listed on this website.
We have our properties andwe're defining the listings as
the type of property that theyare and we're trying to explain
(21:34):
to search engines that hey, thisproperty is located here, we're
talking about it in this way itties back to that parent
geography.
Oh, and this is listed onapartmentscom.
Oh, and this piece of contentwas written by so-and-so.
We're trying to help searchengines understand all of the
relationships that exist betweenthese different data points.
(21:58):
I think structured data is aninteresting piece and I've been
a structured data nerd reallysince it came out and started to
get integrated.
I'm thankful for the approachof implementing JSON-LD schema
versus microdata in some of thelegacy formats.
But we're able to do so much onthe structured data side and,
(22:21):
like I said, I do like cheesyanalogies.
I attribute structured data totaking a Shakespearean novel and
distilling it to a kindergartenreading level for a crawler and
(22:41):
making it very digestible atthe beginning of the page load
so that search engines orgenerative engines don't have to
go and process the entire pageto understand what it's about
and how it relates to otherthings.
So, for example, apartmentscomwas kind of the pioneer in the
unit level shopping experience,meaning folks want to look at a
specific unit of an apartmentcomplex.
They want to rent that unit,they want to know all about it.
They an apartment complex, theywant to rent that unit, they
want to know all about it.
(23:01):
They want the videos, they wantthe 3D tour, they want the
photography, they want to knowhow much it costs.
So we've tried to structure theentity of the apartment
building to also explain theentity of the units that exist
within it, so that way, if folksare looking at that, then they
can understand the relationshipbetween.
Hey, this 3d tour aside, we ownum matterport, which is a 3d
(23:24):
tour y'all.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Y'all own matterport.
Yeah, no, I'm familiar with it.
I didn't know y'all own it.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
That's awesome, that's it because on that one a
couple, a couple months ago now.
Okay, because, uh, for homeinspections.
It's just amazing, right, likeyou can buy a house unseen you
can tag all the issues.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
You can walk around the house.
Okay, because for homeinspections it's just amazing
right Like you can buy a houseunseen.
You can tag all the issues.
You can walk around the house.
Matterport's a fantastictechnology.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
And that's where, like, I'm loving the approach of
being able to tie together hey,you can go and view every unit
in this building and view it asmapped and you can actually
navigate the hallways and theparking lots and all that.
But we're trying to expressthat in an entity perspective
that search engines understandas well, so that way it kind of
ladders up hey, you have thisunit in a building.
(24:08):
This building is an apartmentcomplex.
This building lives in theneighborhood of X, which is a
part of the city of Y and islisted on this site and is
written by so-and-so.
And that's just scratching thesurface of the idea of entities
there.
But really we're trying to tietogether all these things so
that search engines understandthese search engines loosely, I
(24:29):
guess, I mean every engine inCrawler, but understanding the
relationship that exists betweenthese things and the big shout
out, I'll say, with structureddata is and this bothered me a
little bit.
I saw so many folks about sixmonths ago saying, hey,
structured data is meaningless.
Now, like, don't bother doingthis.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Just that the generative images are gonna
figure it all out like withoutany help.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, like I saw that and it kind of made me question
a lot of things about people.
Then you have both Bing andGoogle come out and say, hey,
this is still valuable and like,the AI crawlers and engines
rely on this extensively like,don't get rid of it.
So it kind of makes me laughbecause, like I said, I've been
(25:16):
a fan and structured data nerdsince the beginning, just to see
folks say like, nah, this ismeaningless now, just because
something doesn't appear as arich snippet in results.
I see so many people get rid ofFAQ schema, for example.
Right, but folks are stillasking these questions and,
especially as you're thinkingnow about something like an AI
overview, if you're making thatquestion and answer more
(25:37):
digestible for search engines orgenerative engines to
understand, you're more likelyto get that treatment because
they understand the entity andthey understand the data that
they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, there's some trust associated with it.
Like you've structured to saythis and I know that this to be
true, so I'm much more likely toshow that.
I mean, we were doing atraining internally on on GMB
actually, because no one'stalking about GMB right now and
there's all these kinds ofthings like veteran owned right,
women owned.
(26:07):
Like there's all thesedifferent choices you want to
select.
No, like you want to give itmore data.
Like there's a score associatedwith that.
Like because if you're, andlike there's a score associated
with that.
Like because if you're, if it's, if the, if the LLMs are out
there guessing or, um, uh, youknow, the, the, the bots are out
there just trying to figure itout on their own.
They want to show the rightthing.
(26:28):
They're going to show somethingthat has a higher trust.
I wanted to go back to somethingyou said, um, and I wanted to
get your opinion and I I don'tknow the answer on this.
I want to know if I'm looking atit the right way and I'd love
to just get your take on it.
So I feel like entity SEO orentity associations when you're
(26:51):
building that vocabulary of thisentity versus that entity is
just the next layer ofcategories and tags.
Categories and tags.
So this is my thoughtCategories and tags was so that
the bots could figure out whatwas going on and what you were
talking about on the site as aquick reference guide before it
would have to go process allthis data so it could go across
(27:15):
more of your site and it wouldhave to use as much process
power.
Now you got the entityassociations, so again it uses
less compute power.
So you know you're going to getmore crawl budget potentially
if, if you don't have a bunch oferrors and it's just kind of
like 3d chess versus 2d chess,Um, and you're just, it's just.
This natural progression iskind of how I look at it or saw
(27:38):
it.
How would you add to that orchange that viewpoint?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, I don't, I don't disagree and I actually
don't.
I don't hate that analogy.
I mean, in theory you're,you're trying to I think it's
more of the 3d chess model,right Like in theory, you're
trying to tie together thecategories and tags that exist
underneath one another, so likefor an apartment complex versus
an individual apartment, you'reladdering that up and you're
laddering it up to the city inthat sense, but then off to the
(28:05):
side you've got who the selleris, who the agent is, who the
author is.
So, yeah, I think there's anelement there where you're
thinking about it from a topdown, like, let's say, we're
just sticking in the realm of ageography and a place aspect.
Then you also have thoserelated entities of.
I know folks are kind of stilldebating on the value of eat,
(28:28):
and even me just saying that isautomatically like a debate
topic.
But you know it has beenexpressed in Google's quality
writer guidelines that it issomething that they look at.
If you can define an entity inthinking about it from an eat
perspective, I think there'svalue there.
Like all the authors that wehave that write content on
(28:51):
apartmentscom are well versed inthe real estate space or well
versed in the rental marketplacespace and they're kind of
established as leaders that talkabout and write about and have
experience with these things.
So it's automatically,naturally applying the idea of
EAT and then looking at theentity, and we're talking about
building up the entity of, let'ssay, apartmentscom by having
(29:13):
these knowledgeable authors.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
That are also entities as a person.
Right, and there's someauthorship associated with, like
some same ass schema of they'vewritten all this different kind
of content.
So there's some more authoritythere.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
That's still murky to me.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It makes sense but it's murky to me.
Like how much weight right,like and I guess it pulls.
I don't know how it pulls.
Like you got a bad doctor and agood doctor right, someone
graduated top of the class,bottom of the class.
Like I guess they pull fromreviews, they pull from, you
know, the corpus of informationthey have.
No, there's no great tools ordo you know of any that can kind
(29:50):
of start to wait?
That, like you know, if you'relooking at influencers or
whatever, or content writers toguest posts, like how do wait?
Who does what?
Like you know what I mean.
Like it's, it's murky to me Ithink it is still murky.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I don't know if there's a way of it getting
better.
I'm not sure of anythingoffhand to answer your question.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Okay, cool.
No, I just, if there's a toolout there, tell me, because I'm
trying to figure it out when yousee so many of these.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Let's look at the generative engine of like hey,
hey, who's the best SEOconsultants?
Half this list doesn't do SEOanymore and you know, for folks
that were at SEO Week and heardRand talk, he's kind of like I
don't do this anymore, take meoff this list.
So, yeah, I don't think it'sgreat at understanding currently
(30:39):
, and there's definitely not atool that I'm aware of it might
exist that identifies what themost valuable entity within a
set of entities would be ifyou're comparing them to one
another, especially if since, intheory, you become less tied to
a topic over time Like let'slook at Ran right, like he's
(31:02):
doing so many great things withSparkTour I know he's also doing
like a video game developmentcompany.
That's awesome, but he's notdoing SEO anymore and he fully
admits that, so he's like he'sshifted away.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
But okay, like I get it, like it's almost semantic
because he's the keynote speakerat SEO week, right, okay, and
SparkToro is very much like nextgen, where you know what's your
target persona is, where do youfind them, which is that kind
of speed, like he's in front ofthe curve, right Of where
(31:36):
everything's going.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It's going to come back more in the SEO, right?
Yeah, yeah, Like so I think itof where everything's going.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
It's going to come back more in the SEO.
Yeah, I think it's a strategicpositioning play and he has a
corpus of information out therethat he is like.
If you compare him to anybodyelse, even though he doesn't do
it, he still knows more aboutSEO than 99% of people or
whatever number you want to puton that.
He but he's.
He's one of the top SEOs basedupon the knowledge in his head.
(32:03):
But he's changed his titleRight, so it's Samantha in my
mind.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Exactly Cause.
Yeah, I mean there's still thegeneral relationship of it, but
like those lists just generallydon't represent, yeah, they're
not, they're not.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
I agree, like I mean people.
Yeah, those lists are pulled oraggregated based on on on data.
It's not and that would beinteresting to.
Is it who has like an awards orwhatever that is is really
curated and maybe communitydriven on?
(32:41):
Like who's doing that?
I don't know.
Um, who would you say, likewhere you would go get the real
list?
Like I mean, it's eitherpeople's opinion, like that's
the problem with seo there's nostandard, like framework, and I
think people talk about that alot too.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
And it is sort of comical to me and I mean maybe
just I'll speak to myself for asecond here.
Like I've been doing SEO nowfor 15 years.
I have historically been an SEOthat loves working kind of in
the background, Like I don'twant to be famous.
That just hasn't been a thingfor me.
But lately I've been wanting todo more speaking and educating
(33:18):
and helping the community andgiving back.
But I don't make any of theselists, despite having 15 plus
years of experience at thispoint, because folks just don't
know who I am.
So they reference the ones thatare visible and that opens up
to interpretation who peoplethink are the best SEOs.
I see folks trying to do it andtrying to curate their own list
(33:41):
.
I actually saw a good onerecently from DigitalEat, if
you're not familiar with them,but like it's a curated list of
hey, here's a bunch ofprofessionals in the industry
and folks have gone through andtried and said, hey, you know,
these lists we see aren't asrelevant as they used to be.
Here's what we're thinking now,but that as relevant as they
used to be.
Here's what we're thinking now,but that's someone's opinion
(34:02):
that's not graded in anyparticular way and I don't know
that we have a way of gradingthat.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I would love to see, like I've always thought, like a
competition, right?
You know, it's like you enterin the competition, you start
from scratch and it's like goand people are using different
strategies because that's whatthey do in cybersecurity.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Huh, did Wix do that?
Did Wix do that at some point Along time ago?
I think this was many, many,many years ago.
But I think they tried doing acompetition to basically like
prove that their platform waswas SEO friendly and they
basically said hey, have at it.
But I think that's been sometime.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Well, wix is doing a lot.
I'm impressed with what wix hasbeen doing and and how they've
been out there.
Um, I, I don't know, I justwant to see a game show because
you know, you got the seoweather right.
You got the seo weather.
I like I thought I thought Iwas like I was waiting for more
stuff to come out like that.
I thought it was so cool, okay.
So I have one more big questionfor you and then I want to open
it up to anything we didn'tcover that you want to highlight
(35:01):
as well as, like you know whatyou're doing and what you're
working on, really enjoy hearingyou talk.
I'm glad you're out there,putting yourself out there more.
I mean, that kind of is part ofit for brands too, right, like,
like, if you've done, if a treefalls in the woods but no one's
there to hear it, does ithappen?
Right?
It's kind of that analogy.
You know, and you alluded tothis earlier.
(35:26):
I feel like SEO is reallygrowing up and getting a lot
more scientific and I reallylike the presentations I've seen
about, you know, thevector-based, like keyword
associations and pruning thecontent that's not relative to
that topical authority and and Iwould love to hear, kind of,
(35:47):
how you're looking at that, howwhat your take on that is and
whatever you're willing to share, because, I mean, you cover
such a wide corpus of knowledgewith departmentscom, like how,
how do you even rank what thosetopical authorities are and how
do you decide because the site'sso big?
Well, we want to go after thisand we want it.
(36:09):
Well, we want to go after itall, but like we can't go after
everything.
So how do we force rank it?
And you know, link equity, likehow are we going to distribute
this?
Because I see, with a lot ofmedium-sized companies, they
want to be an expert in alltheir services, right?
Or if they're selling a product, they want to be an expert on
the product.
But I'm like we need to give areal world like mirror to how
(36:32):
you are you the category leaderin all these things, like
because we can't just make youthe category leader unless we
spend a ton of money, which youknow we can do that, but it's
going to take some time.
I'll I'll tell you one funnystory about this, which I don't
know if I could do it today, buta a company that I was working
with is a MMA company and theyhad multiple locations and they
(36:54):
came to me and they were, like,we want to outrank barcy.
Uh, gracie barry, or whateverthe like, whoever the inventors
were, uh, I think I I'mhopefully I don't think I'm
saying that right, the mmapeople are going to get on to me
, but, uh, gracie barry, I thinkit's the name of it they
invented mma, like.
They brought it over here, okayyeah and somebody else wanted to
(37:15):
outrank them and I was able todo it.
Like you know, I was able to ina geographic area, uh, based
upon them, and I was able to doit.
Like you know, I was able to ina geographic area based upon
these things, I was able tooutrank the inventor of it.
Going back to what you said hey, like if you're not putting
yourself out there, you could bethe best SEO in the world, but
if no one knows about it or youhaven't put it out there in the
way that the LLMs understand itand I think Google is just a big
(37:37):
LLM myself Like it's just a bigmachine learning tool, like you
got to feed it the right dataand it's it's learning and it
doesn't know everything today,but man, the trajectory rate is
like crazy, but I but I agreethat if you're talking about
random stuff over here, it'sgoing like that.
That, based on math and a vector, is not close to what you
(37:59):
typically talk about over hereand I've seen a lot of case
studies where you chop that dataoff and it just kind of
slingshots sites up in keywordsranking, even though keyword
ranking is not a factor anymoreand we shouldn't be looking at
that, but I would love to justhear kind of your take on that
and how your approach to it is,because there are some new tools
(38:21):
doing some of those type itemsand even I was playing with
loading content and buildingsome really advanced prompts and
some of the different LLMs andI was getting some pretty cool
outputs.
But I still feel like it'spretty early and not a lot of
SEOs.
This is not in their toolkitand I want to try to give them
(38:43):
something actionable to startthinking about when they're
thinking about content.
Because what I'm hearing islike we're just going to
generate a bunch of content withchat, gbt, with basic prompts
and no tuning, and we're goingto post it and that stuff's
getting unranked Like that'sgetting delisted.
That stuff's not, it's justdiluting, it's just creating a
(39:05):
bunch of noise, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, Um, it's interesting from from that
perspective.
So from an econ side, from amarketplace side, like what I'm
dealing with, Apartmentscom hasthe benefit of being a leader
and a legacy brand, right, yeah,name, and we are always getting
(39:28):
brand references and mentionsand that type of thing.
Do we see competition from otherfolks in the space?
Yeah, of course Everyone'scompeting against everyone else.
So I guess we have a little bitof luxury in saying, hey, let's
look at a certain geography,let's figure out what content
we're missing here, Because wealways have on our site a
(39:49):
summary of an area, a guidearound why you would want to
live there.
We have some data-drivencontent pages, like our average
rent pages that exist.
But sometimes we're getting thequestions going hey, what's the
top neighborhood for X, Y and Z?
I mentioned San Diego, right,let's go back to that.
What's the top beachsideneighborhood for someone that
(40:10):
wants to be near the water?
We get those types of questionsand if we're going to write
that one, we need to make surewe have the right data and that
we're authoritative on it.
I don't want to say we'recheating, but apartmentscom is a
part of CoStar Group.
Our goal is to digitize theworld's real estate and have
those data points.
So it's very easy for us to getthat and make the right
(40:32):
decisions, but then figure outhow we write that content and
support it.
But we almost kind of have tobreak it up in certain areas and
focus on one thing at a timeand we can see when we focus on
that one thing that does greatand then you kind of move on to
the next one.
But you almost can't let it.
You can't rest on your laurels,in a sense, right Like you
can't not forget about the onesthat you've already been working
(40:59):
on.
We also have, I guess, blogs iskind of what I call them that
go after and work for both thelandlord side and the renter
side.
So we're trying to target bothof those audiences and in that
case we're trying to covermultiple different approaches to
topics.
Right, Like, what are thequestions that people were
asking?
Are the questions changing orare new questions coming up
because of new technologies orthings like that?
(41:20):
Do we need to go back andupdate old content or laws
changing?
So a big one that, like we'vetalked about a good amount in
the past is the New York CityFair Act.
So for folks that aren'tfamiliar, like New York City
used to have broker fees was aconcept and the Fair Act
essentially eliminated this.
So there's historically beencontent from us and from other
(41:43):
folks like hey, how do younegotiate the idea and navigate
the idea of broker fees in NewYork City?
That's not a thing anymore.
Navigate the idea of brokerfees in New York City?
That's not a thing anymore.
So that content's almost notnecessary.
But it was something that wasneeded to become an authority on
that topic in the past.
So you're kind of thinkingabout that.
But now, all right, does thatcontent need to exist anymore?
No, unless maybe you want totalk about the idea of that
(42:05):
going away and how you thinkabout it now, but how you
thought about it two years agodoesn't matter anymore.
So, yes, there's some value andbenefit in content pruning in
that sense.
But I think you've got to focuson what you're capable of doing
within the skills, thetechnology and the bandwidth
(42:27):
you're working with, right, Imean, you can't be the knowledge
of everything.
If you're trying to divide yourattention across five different
things, it's the whole.
You know I'd rather whole-asssomething than half-ass, two
things type of thing.
If you can, and you can do thateffectively, that's great.
But I generally try andencourage these days like focus
(42:50):
on a certain area and becomewell known in that area and talk
about that and publish contentthat's helpful for your renters,
your customers, your whateverin that particular area.
But cover off on those topicsand make sure that you're well
versed in them before you moveon to the next thing.
(43:10):
You can start to do that, moveon to the next thing if you need
to, but just know other folksmight be playing catch up or,
you know, the competition mightnot be sleeping on that and they
might go down a path that youhaven't.
So just need to continue tothink about that.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
I think that's great advice about going deep right
and you really need to becomethat subject matter expert on
that one thing.
And I try to give that advicewhen I'm doing coaching to
smaller brands because, likegoing up against apartmentscom,
you're already I call it like ajet stream, like you get to the
(43:50):
top right and it just peoplekeep mentioning you and traffic
keeps coming and you just you'rekind of floating up there, uh,
and if you keep doing some stuffyou can maintain that that jet
stream.
But if you're you're not, thatyou got to punch through to the
top and you got to focus on onearea, maybe where someone is
sleeping or where, where you'relaser focused on that, that
(44:11):
target persona, I just I thatresonates with me on the advice.
I have one follow-up questionfor you.
Yeah, traffic just just gettingcrushed Right.
At least that's what I'm seeing, that's what Rand talked about.
Right Traffic is?
Is 58.5% getting cut?
I'm not quite seeing that.
(44:32):
I'm.
I'm seeing something more like15, 20% drops.
Some clients are actuallybucking the trend.
Um, but I do agree that thetraffic that comes to your site
is a lot more educated, a lotmore transactional.
They're well-researched and andI'm curious how you're mapping?
Or is there a renewed emphasison mapping, like the UX of what
(44:56):
people are doing when they getto your site, and like where
they get stuck and thenidentifying hey, like a lot of
people maybe in the search areasking this question, we're
gonna build content for this.
Or like, how are you deciding?
Yeah, that's my question howare you deciding what content
you should build next with theamount of information you have?
And then also, how are youlooking at the customer journey,
(45:20):
because you have so much data,like, how are you, how are you
viewing all that?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, I'll go into it as much as I can.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, tell me just yeah, whatever, I'm just
interested, it's really uh, yeah, public company public company
perspective is always fun um, sowe do a fair amount of surveys.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
We're always asking renters, landlords, uh, property
management companies what arethe things that you're seeing,
what?
What is it something that youcare about like a good one, that
is public, that I can talkabout like give or take?
I think this is our secondquarter renter survey.
Then, some of those days goneout, somewhere in the 40% range
(45:59):
of folks are willing to rent anapartment sight unseen, because
they've looked at it from a 3dtour or a video and that gives
them enough of the information.
And folks will actually notrent something that doesn't have
that unit level information anddetail.
So in that case it's trying toprovide what folks are looking
(46:23):
for.
So we're getting the feedbackfrom our customers going hey,
these are the things we careabout.
Number one typically is alwaysprice point Cool, well, let's
figure out how we can supportthat conversation from a price
point perspective and eitheroffer new product features or
new elements on our page thathelp you understand that process
, or you get those types ofthings where, hey, you know,
(46:46):
having a 3D tour is veryimportant oh, cool, we own a
company that does that.
Let's make sure we'reintegrating that properly and
that's something we've done alot of lately since the
acquisition is integrate thateffectively into our site.
I think the other thing thereis, you know we're just trying
to continue to improve on theuser experience and
(47:09):
understanding that journey moreeffectively.
To your second question, iffolks are coming in, we still
see folks coming in on some ofthe informational content that
we create.
We also see folks coming deeperin the funnel.
We see folks coming on thebrand.
I think to your point earlier.
We've tried to figure out waysof saying, hey, the folks that
(47:29):
are coming in here, based on thenavigational path we see them
taking, they're trying to getfrom here to here.
So we've tried to revisit a lotof our page templates and
understand that user journey tosupport them with what they're
looking for.
They may come in alreadywell-educated and they might be
further down that conversionfunnel where they're going.
Hey, I know I want to live inthe Buckhead neighborhood of
(47:52):
Atlanta and I want an apartmentwith two bedrooms and a pool
that has a doorman and they'reable to execute that search and
get in and find exactly whatthey're looking for.
We might have folks that justsay, hey, I don't know what
neighborhood to live in, but Igot to move to Atlanta and
you're much higher up thatfunnel.
So it's trying to support thatnavigational aspect down the
(48:14):
funnel that says hey, youstarted out here, let's help you
find the best neighborhood foryou, maybe based on price, maybe
based on what you like to do inyour free time and navigate
them down.
Well, you know, maybe theBuckhead neighborhood is best
for you because of this.
Here's how you can drill downeven deeper.
(48:36):
Now you can figure out how muchit costs you.
Oh, you're moving from anentirely different city.
Hey, here's the cost of livingdifferential.
So, based on this, you'removing from New York City to
Atlanta.
That money might bring you alot further in what you can
afford.
So now, based on general rulesof looking at real estate and
how much money you should spendon rent, here are properties
that you could look at that fityour new budget and fit your
lifestyle.
So we're trying to providethose touch points during the
(48:59):
journey that help to say, hey,depending on where you come in,
how do we bring you to the nextthing and how do we bring you to
eventually finding the rightplace for you to live?
And either go take a tour, lookat media, submit a lease or an
application, but we're trying tosupport the entire funnel and
(49:19):
how you come in from the side ofit.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
I hear you got to have stuff mapped out like down
to a T.
You got to know exactly what'sgoing on and then really looking
at that next step of the data,I love that.
Um, we've covered a lot today.
Um, I, uh, I have some otherquestions about, like, the
future, because you'regenerating so much content and
(49:43):
you have a lot of visuals.
So you know, I'm seeing all the, you know meta glasses and all
this kind of stuff.
So I'm going to have to haveyou back on as that becomes more
in the zeitgeist, um, but Iwould love to see how y'all are
incorporating that and and allthe content that you're creating
with Matterport.
I think super, super interesting.
When I first saw that tool Iwas I was blown away.
(50:05):
It was amazing.
So that's awesome, uh, thatyou're with such a
forward-thinking company.
What is anything that maybe wehadn't covered that you want to
share?
What are some interestingprojects that maybe you're
working on?
When's your next talk?
How can people find out moreabout you?
I would love to talk a littlebit more about that.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Yeah.
So for me, my passion is reallyin all things SEO, so I've
historically done a lot ofspeaking and educating on the
technical SEO side.
I've kind of fanned out alittle bit from that.
So some of my talks at PubConwere more on the content heavy
side of things.
I also did a talk on how towork effectively with your
developers.
You know there's a lot ofconversation around SEO and
(50:47):
product and how they livetogether.
At Apartmentscom, the SEOperspective lives as a part of
the product organization, sowe're creating things that focus
primarily on users and alsobenefit search engines.
So there's a lot of talk fromfolks in the industry around how
to think about product SEO andthat's something that I've been
enjoying drilling into because Iget to create things that I see
(51:10):
people use and that theythey're excited about touching
and interfacing with um, likeour cost of living data.
I referenced that earlier.
That's new for us.
We launched that um uh, almostsix plus months ago now.
Um, but that was a new idea forus to kind of go.
I'm like, hey, we have folksasking about this thing, let's
create it.
Oh cool.
It also happens to have a lot ofdemand from the search engine
(51:34):
perspective, from the gender ofengine perspective.
Well, let's make sure we havethe content that supports that
need.
But I've also kind of venturedout Like my role is also from,
like a leadership perspective,right, Like I still do some
day-to-day, because, A I enjoyit and B I want to stay sharp,
(51:57):
but a lot of it's how to managea team, how to have that team
work effectively with developers.
So my next talk is actually adigital summit in Minneapolis
where I'll be talking about,like how to lead a team
effectively and build thatcohesion in between them.
Even from the technical side,like one of my weird passions, I
would say that one of thethings I love more than
structured data is replatformingis in migrations.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
And.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
I think maybe I'm mental for saying that because
most folks think that's theiridea of hell.
But for me, like your brain isa.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
You got an engineering brain like
everything's got a map right.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
It's a fun puzzle to solve right.
It's an exercise in compromise,in time management, in knowing
how to develop requirements,understanding the data
implications of doing things.
Those are all things that Ienjoy.
So, like myself, and there'sanother gentleman on my team
that is also big into doing thatLike maybe we're weird, but
(52:53):
that's just something we'veenjoyed doing.
I think at this point in mycareer I've done if not over
close to 100 different forms ofreplatformings, migrations,
redesigns, things like that.
So you end up seeing andlearning so much about the
technical side of SEO, but alsothe interpersonal side of how
you work with other people, howyou work with developers, how
(53:15):
you communicate between adeveloper and a CMO and how you
change what you talk about inthose cases.
It's one of those things whereit's interesting and it's fun to
me, but it's also taught me alot in my career and helped make
me, like I said, I've beendoing this for about 15 years,
but I feel like I have even moreknowledge than that because
I've worked with so manydifferent scenarios of those
(53:37):
types of things andunderstanding how all these
different brands and categoriesmight work.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
I feel like that's a talk in a podcast on its own,
talking about enterprise levelmigrations and figuring out do
we need to move all this content?
You got huge sites right andthat had been there for years
and years and years and you'relike let's change it over and
you need to do that right.
You need to do that and how doyou do that effectively and what
(54:05):
are the things you need tobring across?
And at a large organization,there's a lot of red tape and
approvals and people that haveto correspond.
I think that that's a reallyamazing topic I got so, before
we move on to the last question,I wanted to know, like, where
are you most active, like?
(54:26):
So I know you speak a lot.
Are you LinkedIn I'm assumingit's a good place to find out
what you're doing or is theresomewhere else that people want
to check out?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
LinkedIn is where I would say I'm most active,
typically also active on X, alittle bit on blue sky and kind
of navigating around thereTrying to get into blogging more
.
So maybe more to come there.
But I think even to your pointof explaining to the gender of
engines and the search enginesthat you're a knowledgeable
entity on things.
I feel like I need to do moreblogging.
I like doing this type of stuffwhere it's a conversation
(54:57):
rather than writing, but tryingto do more of that.
So, yeah, definitely come chatwith me on LinkedIn, come chat
with me on X or Blue Sky, andlook forward to that.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Awesome.
So we've talked about so muchtoday and people that listening
are at different levels of wherethey're at in their SEO journey
.
If we brought it back to onething, maybe it's something you
mentioned, maybe it's somethingyou haven't, but what's one tip
(55:32):
you would give to people todaythat's actionable, that they
could do something with to tryto figure out what to do with
all the changes that are comingdown the pipe?
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Yeah, something that's been sticking in my head
for a couple of months now andfor anyone that was at SEO Week
or saw my participation there, Iwas on a panel with Jory Ford
and Ann Laurie, and one thingthat Ann said really continues
to stick with me, and it's theidea of don't try to get fancy
without making sure that you'redoing the basics correctly.
(56:00):
There's still a fundamental needto make sure that your website
is crawlable, that you'rehandling the technical
components of SEO.
A lot of these LLMs andgenerative engines don't
understand any form ofJavaScript and, as much as
Google says that they do, Istill see them struggle with
certain components of it.
Other search engines strugglemore with it.
(56:21):
Don't try and get fancy withdoing a whole bunch of different
AI stuff if your site's noteven properly crawlable or if
you don't have an understandingof it is more so for enterprise
sites and larger sites.
But your crawl budget and howit's being used and how much of
your site search engines andgeneral engines are actually
seeing.
Maybe spend some time lookingat your log files, but
(56:43):
understanding where you havethose gaps in your technical
foundation and addressing thatbefore you try and do the really
fancy stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:51):
Yeah, I'm going to have to have Lori on to talk
about the log files, causethat's foundation and addressing
that before you try and do thereally fancy stuff.
Yeah, I'm going to have to haveLori on to talk about the log
files, cause that's.
Thanks so much, zach, for forcoming on for everyone listening
.
If you want to grow yourbusiness with the largest, most
powerful tool on the planet,reach out to EWR for more
revenue in your business.
Thank you so much, zach, forcoming on until Until the next
(57:12):
time.
Everyone, my name is MattBertram.
Bye-bye for now.
This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing.
Your insider guide to thestrategies top marketers use to
crush the competition.
Ready to unlock your businessfull potential, let's get
started, howdy.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome back to another fun-filled episode of
the Unknown Secrets of InternetMarketing.
I am your host, matt Bertram.
I am just having a great timehere.
I know we've been releasingthese weekly.
We've been recording aboutthree podcasts a week, so a lot
of great content to come.
I got Zach here fromapartmentscom, who used to be
(00:39):
over there at iPoleRank, andwe've been just getting to know
each other and talking about alot of things.
He was just at PubCon and wewere catching up on kind of
what's going on because thingsare changing so quickly.
And Zach, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Awesome.
Well, let's just kind of pickup where we got, where we left
off before.
I just thought we would includeeverybody in the conversation.
What were the things that youwere picking up from PubCon of
things that's maybe changedsince, let's say, seo week and I
know SMX Advanced just happened.
So I mean, things are justrapid fire right now.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, it seemed like folks are still maybe struggling
or grappling with how to thinkabout the impact of AI in
general, of engine searches andthings like that.
It was interesting.
There's definitely a lot ofconflicting opinion on the
impact of what's going to happenhere, how we should look at
(01:40):
things, how we should look atdata points, KPRs, things like
that.
But yeah, it's.
I think we're still maybe at acrossroads a little bit in the
industry where folks are not100% certain on the direction to
go.
But I also think that's maybe asubset of folks not necessarily
knowing how to evolve as thesearch engines are evolving.
(02:04):
I think a lot of folks mightget stuck in the legacy ways of
thinking about search engineoptimization and not thinking
about the gender of engines ornot thinking about the impact of
things like AI mode that arecoming into play.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, I think everybody's going to wake up
with AI mode when that.
When that hits and the 10 bluelinks are gone, I mean they're
pretty much like pushed so fardown the page at this point that
I'm seeing this inversecorrelation between you get to
the top spot in Google and youlose traffic, because now you're
in the overviews or you're inthe people also ask, and so like
(02:41):
traffic's going down.
But then my brand searches fora number of my clients are going
up, right, and then I'm likegoing, okay, how do I track
attribution across all thesedifferent platforms?
And we're we're having aquarterly meetings with clients
right now and you know, I'mstarting to talk about Reddit
and like the informationarchitecture that you're you're
(03:03):
you're needing to build, theinformation architecture that
you're you're needing to build,and I've I've had a couple
clients.
They're not ready yet, likethey're not ready yet and and
they're not, they're notchanging.
And I think a lot of people arestill playing that old game and
luckily, a lot of that old gameif you do the traditional stuff
really well does have apositive impact on the new game.
(03:23):
So I think it was like what wasit when Google AdWords?
They keep changing theinterfaces.
You just wait because you knowhow to use it the old way.
I feel like it took me a realminute to get immersed in what's
(03:45):
happening and to understandwhere we're going, because it's
like search just broke out ofthe website and it's just
scattered all over the place.
It's running in all thesedifferent directions and you're
like what do I do first?
What is the impact?
What is the waiting?
You know how should I thinkabout this?
And I think I don't know.
(04:06):
Did you hear people talkingabout different frameworks?
I know what is it.
Malik from Search Atlas had acouple different frameworks that
he was talking about.
I want to bring him on.
He was talking about like ascholar framework of like here's
how to look at the content, andhe came up with a new waiting
(04:28):
system for, like link power orsomething like that, and it was
like an aggregated score but itwas like here's all the
different things and this isreally what we should be looking
at.
So it could be a little bit ofmarketing, I guess, but I think
it was still hitting on all theright things.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, I see that as a general theme and I think
there's just several differentways that folks have been
approaching it, whether they'rethinking about the value of an
entity and the value of I hateto say, page rank, because
that's, I mean, still kind of intheory, a metric that folks do
look at, but like thinking abouthow authority is flowing
(05:11):
between entities and how you tiethe relationships to one
another.
I'm just seeing it referred toin a lot of different ways and
in some cases I'm seeing it morethought out.
Um, there's definitely a lot offolks in the SEO space that are
kind of taking this to the nextlevel and folks doing it kind
of more at an elementary basistoo, where they're just kind of
beginning to think about theidea of vector embeddings and
(05:33):
you know how certain pieces ofcontent relate to one another.
Query Fana is one that I seealso being thought about in, I
guess I'll say, different levelsof success and different levels
of depth so far.
But I think the folks that arethinking a little bit more
intricately about that areprobably going to do better in
(05:53):
the long run.
But I do agree with you I'm inan interesting spot in how I've
adopted myself here, because thereal estate space hasn't
changed as rapidly as some otherareas in search engines.
So, you know, with things likee-commerce, with travel, with
(06:14):
news and editorial type stuff.
There's a bigger impact of AIon that.
We've certainly seen someimpacts of AI overviews, ai mode
generative engines impactingsome traffic numbers and
visibility and that's justeveryone seeing that.
But I don't see something likean AI mode as frequently in the
(06:36):
real estate space.
I see it for something like hey, what's the average rent of a
two-bedroom apartment in NewYork City?
And in instances like that likeI see us ranked number one
traditionally and as the topsource in the AI overview, I
still see those things bringingtraffic to the site.
I'm not sure how much that'sbeen impacted, given you know
(06:59):
these pages are maybe a littlebit newer on our side and didn't
get the full weight of pre-AIO,but we're not getting AI
overviews on our commercial typequeries just yet.
Or if we see Googleexperimenting with them, they're
kind of bad, I mean.
I know folks are going to besurprised by AI overviews giving
bad answers, but like we'veseen instances where it'll be
(07:22):
like, hey, I want to find anapartment in Atlanta.
Oh well, we recommend that yougo visit apartmentscom and these
other websites.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Like cool, I could have saved that space, but yeah
implying, I guess and I want to,I want to ferret it out a
little bit more is you youmentioned this early on too like
people don't understand theimpact yet and really it's only
(07:52):
a fraction of the overall searchfrom Google.
Right, it's just a fraction,but it's where things are going,
is what people are looking atand concerned about, and and
that's kind of the feedback wegot from a number of our clients
that were in industries thathaven't been impacted is like,
hey, um, like I'm not seeingmuch change and I'm currently
(08:12):
still using Google and you know,like I think we're good and and
and I, I think that there'sthat bell curve, I guess of, um,
you know, early adopters andand, and the transition is going
to take longer.
Like I remember my mom, mymom's one of the first employees
at Microsoft, and uh, she, shetold me I, I wanted to get set
(08:33):
up those like before red box,the red box things, and I wanted
to put, I wanted to get thoseset up everywhere, cause I saw
like a bunch of pharmacies and,uh, grocery stores and have them
, and my mom was like, no, don'tdo that.
Like everything's going online,everything's going to be
streaming in like a couple ofyears and Redbox is still
holding strong.
I mean they can just raisetheir prices.
(08:55):
I mean maybe they've owned themarket and there's not a bunch
of players anymore.
I get it.
But I mean, and it will go theway, I guess, of Blockbuster
eventually, but there's a longtail on this stuff and if you're
focused on the traditionalstuff, then does it matter that
much?
Now I guess people arerepositioning, like getting
(09:16):
positioning ahead of it.
Is that kind of what yourthought is?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I think so.
Yeah, your thought is.
I think so.
Yeah, I mean, my long-termprediction is that AI mode will
become more of a defaultexperience down the line.
At least with the last adoptionnumbers I was seeing, though,
it was only hovering around like1% to maybe somewhere between
1% and 2%.
Now, given it's been two orthree weeks, and that's with
(09:45):
Google heavily pushing the heytry, ai mode thing.
I'm getting the pushnotifications all the time
whenever I try and use Google orChrome on my phone.
I did see that it looks like thenew version of Chrome I just
saw a couple of folks talkingabout this on social media is
now incorporating AI mode as anoption in the URL bar.
So I am curious if thiscontinues to result in more
(10:06):
adoption there.
But I do think maybe some folksare a little anxious and
putting themselves ahead of likethe cart before the horse type
of thing.
Right, I'm sure there areinstances where folks want to
start thinking about how thisworks and how to get involved
with it.
But the adoption rate yeah, Imean to your point.
(10:28):
We're kind of in the beginningof that adoption curve where you
have the early adopters thatare doing it, some of the folks
that I've seen outside of thespace and this is just my own
personal experiences in talkingwith folks kind of saying like
hey, I'm not really enjoyingthis, I'm not getting what I
need out of it.
If they're looking for morecommercial-based intent, if
(10:48):
they're just asking it aquestion or they're kind of
treating it like a conversationengine, it's been doing okay,
but I'm just not seeing folks goout of that system yet.
And then you run into the issueyou mentioned this earlier
where attribution is still kindof questionable.
I know Google fixed theanalytics measurement of
(11:09):
attribution that might be comingin from AI mode, but there's
still limited opportunity toclick out of that into a website
or just brings you into anotherGoogle experience.
And we're seeing the same thingwith other generative engines
as well, where some do okay onattribution and some don't.
But yeah, I do think folks arefeeling the pressure to adopt
(11:31):
and I think it's going to taketime to get there.
I think you've got time beforeAI mode becomes the standard.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, I think we're in an echo chamber.
I agree, we're in an echochamber and I agree.
And I, I literally ask everyperson I hang out with socially
what they're doing with ai, like, like, what are you doing with
chat gbt?
Or, you know, have you used anyof the other stuff?
Right?
And chat gbt is a lot morepersonable than like, for, for
(12:04):
example, right when, when, when,when you're when you're talking
to it, and like, how are youusing it?
What are you using it for?
And then, um, you know, therethere's some data that I I was
pretty shocked.
Uh, some people are leveragingit too much and they're like,
losing brain capacity becauseright I just I, just you know,
(12:24):
and so I don't think people knowwhat to think about everything.
I saw that me incorporate itinto everything I do and my
workflow and I just don't seethat transition happening.
(12:48):
I mean, I do think that on theenterprise level, I'm curious
what, like at the executive teamof a large company, how are
they talking about incorporating, maybe, ai?
If we even remove ourself fromsearch for a second and just say
there's this thing called AIand artificial intelligence and
(13:09):
deep learning that we can takedata warehouses and do all kinds
of cool stuff with it nowgenerally, where we're not
having to label everything andit's a lot more user-friendly
when you're up with applied AI,like it's a lot more
user-friendly like when you'reup with applied AI, what?
What are big corporations likeapartmentscom Like?
(13:29):
How are they thinking about it?
I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, I think I'll speak as generally as I can.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Talk just as you and what you think, and don't share
anything that you can't share.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I think it comes down to a couple of things.
Right, you're, you're one.
You're trying to figure out howto integrate AI in the products
.
I think that seems to be thehot thing where everyone's
integrating AI in some form.
I see a lot of companies doingthis.
Some are doing it in aninteresting way, others are
doing it in I'll call them,lackluster approaches.
You know, speaking forourselves, you know we've
(14:05):
announced some products on thefront end where it's a
conversational approach tofinding a rental, finding a
house.
We also co-star owns homescom,so we have folks that are
working on that side where youcan kind of speak into it and,
in theory, it understands.
You know what you're asking for, what amenities you're asking
(14:25):
for, and then can apply thosefilters dynamically.
So that's been an aspect.
We also have independentlandlords and operators that
exist, so we've been trying tocreate products to help them, I
would say, complete theirlistings and make them more
successful in finding a renteron their side them more
successful in finding a renteron their side.
(14:46):
So, like we have the ability ofhelping you leverage AI to
create a property descriptionbased on looking at some of the
images of your property.
So there's aspects like that.
I also think there's a goodamount of conversation around
how to integrate AI intoefficiency and how to leverage
that to be better at what you'redoing on a day to day basis.
That's resulting in kind of acouple of interesting things.
(15:12):
I see folks that have dove intoit and they understand like,
hey, this allows me to bequicker at what I do.
It may still have errors.
We need to account for that andbe responsible for what we're
doing with it.
But then I also see a lot offolks that are scared of it,
kind of taking their jobs, andthat's a reasonable concern.
I'm not going to argue withthat.
What I've been trying to tellfolks is and maybe a random
(15:33):
aside here I have a weirdfascination with engineering of
certain things, including likecruise ships and theme parks and
things like that.
But there was a good documentaryon like how they built Disney
World like many, many, manyyears ago, and this analogy has
kind of stuck with me.
But they were talking about,hey, all the animators that were
programming these rides wereprogramming them manually and
(15:57):
they're sitting there andthey're getting recorded in
their motions and things likethat.
But it came out with this boxthat allowed them to program,
what was going on and what youwanted the right to do.
And a lot of folks wereconcerned hey, this is just
going to take my job, I'm notgoing to, I'm not using this, I
don't want to get involved withit.
And they started havingconversations with those folks
going hey, this allows you totake some of the menial aspects
(16:21):
of what you're trying to do on aday-to-day basis out of it so
that you can focus on the thingsthat do matter.
So I see ai being adopted.
I think it will be adopted morereadily in the enterprise space
to improve efficiency, whetherthat's helping to do um, initial
coding or even coding what'swhatsoever.
(16:42):
I know google this point.
I think they stayed in theirlast earnings call.
They're using AI to write abouthalf their code right now,
somewhere around that number,and it's self-improving, right,
right.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So what is it?
Alpha, or I forget what theycall the engine, but it's
self-improving, so it's writingthe code and then it's improving
upon the code that's written toreduce what was it like data
storage by 7% or some numberacross all of their
infrastructure, which is thatlike a huge amount in savings?
(17:17):
Yeah, or something like that?
Speaker 1 (17:18):
yeah, yeah, they're going to keep trying to figure
out ways of incorporating itinto the day-to-day process and
be more efficient.
I do think folks still need tobe careful with how they do
integrate it or how they rely onit.
I still, although it continuesto get better, I see
hallucinations, I see badrecommendations.
(17:39):
I was talking to somedevelopers the other day where
it's kind of recommendinginefficient ways of handling
some aspects of coding thateither result in additional
latency or, say, low timeeffects or things like that.
So I just encourage folks tonot be relying on it but use it
to help improve your efficiency.
(17:59):
And even I was having aconversation with one of my team
members this morning where, hey, we're trying to figure out how
we organize this data, that wehave to ingest it into our
platform just more effectively,and we kind of sat there going
all right, we could regex thisand probably get it 90% right,
or we can stick in chat GPT andsee if it can do any better.
And it did.
(18:19):
I would say it got 99% of theway there.
A couple of things that wedidn't like but that improved
the efficiency.
I don't have someone sittingthere and going through multiple
thousands of lines of aspreadsheet trying to
recalculate something.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, no for sure.
I feel like we're making thisan AI podcast, which is awesome
because I think that that's whateverybody cares about and
everybody's trying to orienttheir head around it.
I think we covered quite a bitof information already.
I wanted to walk back to intoTSEO.
(18:54):
I really haven't.
I really haven't covered thatas well as I should.
We are working on entity SEOand schema markup internally.
I am a customer of WordLift.
I want to get the CEO on andwe're early in this process,
(19:17):
right, because we were doing alot of manual schema and
starting to build, like, theseassociations.
But I would love for, like you,to kind of map out you know
what dabbling with it looks likeand then what advanced looks
like, and just give people thatunderstanding of we're now
moving from like word to vector,like keyword association or
(19:39):
even semantic search torelationships and you know how
the knowledge graph plays intoit, because, I mean, you see it
at such a broad level and andit's really important to
understand all these differentassociations of, well, what
makes up an apartment, right,and and I would love for you,
like, if you know, you couldspeak to us like we're one of
(20:04):
your team members and we're newand you're educating us on what
this is and why it's important.
I think that'd be prettyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah.
So the way that we look atentity perspective is we're
trying to tie together all ofthe information about what we
work with on a day-to-day basis.
So an entity could be definedas the organization of
apartmentscom.
It could be defined as a placehey, I'm talking about
apartments for rent in San Diego.
(20:32):
It could be defined as anauthor folks that are writing
our content and contributing tothat.
There are multiple differentways of defining and thinking
about what an entity is and howwe explain it to the search
engine in the form of structureddata so I'll come back to that
in a second but also in how wetie it together from a
(20:53):
relationship conceptualperspective.
So I talked a little bit aboutthis actually in my PubCon talk
last week, where, if you land onthat Apartments for Rent in San
Diego page that we have,there's contextual linking that
exists, driven by the entitiesthat we've defined that say, hey
, you're in San Diego, but a lotof folks tend to look at these
(21:14):
neighborhoods.
So here are the neighborhoodsand we're trying to tie the
relationship to say, hey, thisneighborhood is a part of this
place of San Diego which is apart of the state which is being
listed on this website.
We have our properties andwe're defining the listings as
the type of property that theyare and we're trying to explain
(21:34):
to search engines that hey, thisproperty is located here, we're
talking about it in this way itties back to that parent
geography.
Oh, and this is listed onapartmentscom.
Oh, and this piece of contentwas written by so-and-so.
We're trying to help searchengines understand all of the
relationships that exist betweenthese different data points.
(21:58):
I think structured data is aninteresting piece and I've been
a structured data nerd reallysince it came out and started to
get integrated.
I'm thankful for the approachof implementing JSON-LD schema
versus microdata in some of thelegacy formats.
But we're able to do so much onthe structured data side and,
(22:21):
like I said, I do like cheesyanalogies.
I attribute structured data totaking a Shakespearean novel and
distilling it to a kindergartenreading level for a crawler and
(22:41):
making it very digestible atthe beginning of the page load
so that search engines orgenerative engines don't have to
go and process the entire pageto understand what it's about
and how it relates to otherthings.
So, for example, apartmentscomwas kind of the pioneer in the
unit level shopping experience,meaning folks want to look at a
specific unit of an apartmentcomplex.
They want to rent that unit,they want to know all about it.
They an apartment complex, theywant to rent that unit, they
want to know all about it.
(23:01):
They want the videos, they wantthe 3D tour, they want the
photography, they want to knowhow much it costs.
So we've tried to structure theentity of the apartment
building to also explain theentity of the units that exist
within it, so that way, if folksare looking at that, then they
can understand the relationshipbetween.
Hey, this 3d tour aside, we ownum matterport, which is a 3d
(23:24):
tour y'all.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Y'all own matterport.
Yeah, no, I'm familiar with it.
I didn't know y'all own it.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
That's awesome, that's it because on that one a
couple, a couple months ago now.
Okay, because, uh, for homeinspections.
It's just amazing, right, likeyou can buy a house unseen you
can tag all the issues.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
You can walk around the house.
Okay, because for homeinspections it's just amazing
right Like you can buy a houseunseen.
You can tag all the issues.
You can walk around the house.
Matterport's a fantastictechnology.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
And that's where, like, I'm loving the approach of
being able to tie together hey,you can go and view every unit
in this building and view it asmapped and you can actually
navigate the hallways and theparking lots and all that.
But we're trying to expressthat in an entity perspective
that search engines understandas well, so that way it kind of
ladders up hey, you have thisunit in a building.
(24:08):
This building is an apartmentcomplex.
This building lives in theneighborhood of X, which is a
part of the city of Y and islisted on this site and is
written by so-and-so.
And that's just scratching thesurface of the idea of entities
there.
But really we're trying to tietogether all these things so
that search engines understandthese search engines loosely, I
(24:29):
guess, I mean every engine inCrawler, but understanding the
relationship that exists betweenthese things and the big shout
out, I'll say, with structureddata is and this bothered me a
little bit.
I saw so many folks about sixmonths ago saying, hey,
structured data is meaningless.
Now, like, don't bother doingthis.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Just that the generative images are gonna
figure it all out like withoutany help.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, like I saw that and it kind of made me question
a lot of things about people.
Then you have both Bing andGoogle come out and say, hey,
this is still valuable and like,the AI crawlers and engines
rely on this extensively like,don't get rid of it.
So it kind of makes me laughbecause, like I said, I've been
(25:16):
a fan and structured data nerdsince the beginning, just to see
folks say like, nah, this ismeaningless now, just because
something doesn't appear as arich snippet in results.
I see so many people get rid ofFAQ schema, for example.
Right, but folks are stillasking these questions and,
especially as you're thinkingnow about something like an AI
overview, if you're making thatquestion and answer more
(25:37):
digestible for search engines orgenerative engines to
understand, you're more likelyto get that treatment because
they understand the entity andthey understand the data that
they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, there's some trust associated with it.
Like you've structured to saythis and I know that this to be
true, so I'm much more likely toshow that.
I mean, we were doing atraining internally on on GMB
actually, because no one'stalking about GMB right now and
there's all these kinds ofthings like veteran owned right,
women owned.
(26:07):
Like there's all thesedifferent choices you want to
select.
No, like you want to give itmore data.
Like there's a score associatedwith that.
Like because if you're, andlike there's a score associated
with that.
Like because if you're, if it's, if the, if the LLMs are out
there guessing or, um, uh, youknow, the, the, the bots are out
there just trying to figure itout on their own.
They want to show the rightthing.
(26:28):
They're going to show somethingthat has a higher trust.
I wanted to go back to somethingyou said, um, and I wanted to
get your opinion and I I don'tknow the answer on this.
I want to know if I'm looking atit the right way and I'd love
to just get your take on it.
So I feel like entity SEO orentity associations when you're
(26:51):
building that vocabulary of thisentity versus that entity is
just the next layer ofcategories and tags.
Categories and tags.
So this is my thoughtCategories and tags was so that
the bots could figure out whatwas going on and what you were
talking about on the site as aquick reference guide before it
would have to go process allthis data so it could go across
(27:15):
more of your site and it wouldhave to use as much process
power.
Now you got the entityassociations, so again it uses
less compute power.
So you know you're going to getmore crawl budget potentially
if, if you don't have a bunch oferrors and it's just kind of
like 3d chess versus 2d chess,Um, and you're just, it's just.
This natural progression iskind of how I look at it or saw
(27:38):
it.
How would you add to that orchange that viewpoint?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, I don't, I don't disagree and I actually
don't.
I don't hate that analogy.
I mean, in theory you're,you're trying to I think it's
more of the 3d chess model,right Like in theory, you're
trying to tie together thecategories and tags that exist
underneath one another, so likefor an apartment complex versus
an individual apartment, you'reladdering that up and you're
laddering it up to the city inthat sense, but then off to the
(28:05):
side you've got who the selleris, who the agent is, who the
author is.
So, yeah, I think there's anelement there where you're
thinking about it from a topdown, like, let's say, we're
just sticking in the realm of ageography and a place aspect.
Then you also have thoserelated entities of.
I know folks are kind of stilldebating on the value of eat,
(28:28):
and even me just saying that isautomatically like a debate
topic.
But you know it has beenexpressed in Google's quality
writer guidelines that it issomething that they look at.
If you can define an entity inthinking about it from an eat
perspective, I think there'svalue there.
Like all the authors that wehave that write content on
(28:51):
apartmentscom are well versed inthe real estate space or well
versed in the rental marketplacespace and they're kind of
established as leaders that talkabout and write about and have
experience with these things.
So it's automatically,naturally applying the idea of
EAT and then looking at theentity, and we're talking about
building up the entity of, let'ssay, apartmentscom by having
(29:13):
these knowledgeable authors.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
That are also entities as a person.
Right, and there's someauthorship associated with, like
some same ass schema of they'vewritten all this different kind
of content.
So there's some more authoritythere.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
That's still murky to me.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It makes sense but it's murky to me.
Like how much weight right,like and I guess it pulls.
I don't know how it pulls.
Like you got a bad doctor and agood doctor right, someone
graduated top of the class,bottom of the class.
Like I guess they pull fromreviews, they pull from, you
know, the corpus of informationthey have.
No, there's no great tools ordo you know of any that can kind
(29:50):
of start to wait?
That, like you know, if you'relooking at influencers or
whatever, or content writers toguest posts, like how do wait?
Who does what?
Like you know what I mean.
Like it's, it's murky to me Ithink it is still murky.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I don't know if there's a way of it getting
better.
I'm not sure of anythingoffhand to answer your question.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Okay, cool.
No, I just, if there's a toolout there, tell me, because I'm
trying to figure it out when yousee so many of these.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Let's look at the generative engine of like hey,
hey, who's the best SEOconsultants?
Half this list doesn't do SEOanymore and you know, for folks
that were at SEO Week and heardRand talk, he's kind of like I
don't do this anymore, take meoff this list.
So, yeah, I don't think it'sgreat at understanding currently
(30:39):
, and there's definitely not atool that I'm aware of it might
exist that identifies what themost valuable entity within a
set of entities would be ifyou're comparing them to one
another, especially if since, intheory, you become less tied to
a topic over time Like let'slook at Ran right, like he's
(31:02):
doing so many great things withSparkTour I know he's also doing
like a video game developmentcompany.
That's awesome, but he's notdoing SEO anymore and he fully
admits that, so he's like he'sshifted away.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
But okay, like I get it, like it's almost semantic
because he's the keynote speakerat SEO week, right, okay, and
SparkToro is very much like nextgen, where you know what's your
target persona is, where do youfind them, which is that kind
of speed, like he's in front ofthe curve, right Of where
(31:36):
everything's going.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It's going to come back more in the SEO, right?
Yeah, yeah, Like so I think itof where everything's going.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
It's going to come back more in the SEO.
Yeah, I think it's a strategicpositioning play and he has a
corpus of information out therethat he is like.
If you compare him to anybodyelse, even though he doesn't do
it, he still knows more aboutSEO than 99% of people or
whatever number you want to puton that.
He but he's.
He's one of the top SEOs basedupon the knowledge in his head.
(32:03):
But he's changed his titleRight, so it's Samantha in my
mind.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Exactly Cause.
Yeah, I mean there's still thegeneral relationship of it, but
like those lists just generallydon't represent, yeah, they're
not, they're not.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
I agree, like I mean people.
Yeah, those lists are pulled oraggregated based on on on data.
It's not and that would beinteresting to.
Is it who has like an awards orwhatever that is is really
curated and maybe communitydriven on?
(32:41):
Like who's doing that?
I don't know.
Um, who would you say, likewhere you would go get the real
list?
Like I mean, it's eitherpeople's opinion, like that's
the problem with seo there's nostandard, like framework, and I
think people talk about that alot too.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
And it is sort of comical to me and I mean maybe
just I'll speak to myself for asecond here.
Like I've been doing SEO nowfor 15 years.
I have historically been an SEOthat loves working kind of in
the background, Like I don'twant to be famous.
That just hasn't been a thingfor me.
But lately I've been wanting todo more speaking and educating
(33:18):
and helping the community andgiving back.
But I don't make any of theselists, despite having 15 plus
years of experience at thispoint, because folks just don't
know who I am.
So they reference the ones thatare visible and that opens up
to interpretation who peoplethink are the best SEOs.
I see folks trying to do it andtrying to curate their own list
(33:41):
.
I actually saw a good onerecently from DigitalEat, if
you're not familiar with them,but like it's a curated list of
hey, here's a bunch ofprofessionals in the industry
and folks have gone through andtried and said, hey, you know,
these lists we see aren't asrelevant as they used to be.
Here's what we're thinking now,but that as relevant as they
used to be.
Here's what we're thinking now,but that's someone's opinion
(34:02):
that's not graded in anyparticular way and I don't know
that we have a way of gradingthat.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I would love to see, like I've always thought, like a
competition, right?
You know, it's like you enterin the competition, you start
from scratch and it's like goand people are using different
strategies because that's whatthey do in cybersecurity.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Huh, did Wix do that?
Did Wix do that at some point Along time ago?
I think this was many, many,many years ago.
But I think they tried doing acompetition to basically like
prove that their platform waswas SEO friendly and they
basically said hey, have at it.
But I think that's been sometime.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Well, wix is doing a lot.
I'm impressed with what wix hasbeen doing and and how they've
been out there.
Um, I, I don't know, I justwant to see a game show because
you know, you got the seoweather right.
You got the seo weather.
I like I thought I thought Iwas like I was waiting for more
stuff to come out like that.
I thought it was so cool, okay.
So I have one more big questionfor you and then I want to open
it up to anything we didn'tcover that you want to highlight
(35:01):
as well as, like you know whatyou're doing and what you're
working on, really enjoy hearingyou talk.
I'm glad you're out there,putting yourself out there more.
I mean, that kind of is part ofit for brands too, right, like,
like, if you've done, if a treefalls in the woods but no one's
there to hear it, does ithappen?
Right?
It's kind of that analogy.
You know, and you alluded tothis earlier.
(35:26):
I feel like SEO is reallygrowing up and getting a lot
more scientific and I reallylike the presentations I've seen
about, you know, thevector-based, like keyword
associations and pruning thecontent that's not relative to
that topical authority and and Iwould love to hear, kind of,
(35:47):
how you're looking at that, howwhat your take on that is and
whatever you're willing to share, because, I mean, you cover
such a wide corpus of knowledgewith departmentscom, like how,
how do you even rank what thosetopical authorities are and how
do you decide because the site'sso big?
Well, we want to go after thisand we want it.
(36:09):
Well, we want to go after itall, but like we can't go after
everything.
So how do we force rank it?
And you know, link equity, likehow are we going to distribute
this?
Because I see, with a lot ofmedium-sized companies, they
want to be an expert in alltheir services, right?
Or if they're selling a product, they want to be an expert on
the product.
But I'm like we need to give areal world like mirror to how
(36:32):
you are you the category leaderin all these things, like
because we can't just make youthe category leader unless we
spend a ton of money, which youknow we can do that, but it's
going to take some time.
I'll I'll tell you one funnystory about this, which I don't
know if I could do it today, buta a company that I was working
with is a MMA company and theyhad multiple locations and they
(36:54):
came to me and they were, like,we want to outrank barcy.
Uh, gracie barry, or whateverthe like, whoever the inventors
were, uh, I think I I'mhopefully I don't think I'm
saying that right, the mmapeople are going to get on to me
, but, uh, gracie barry, I thinkit's the name of it they
invented mma, like.
They brought it over here, okayyeah and somebody else wanted to
(37:15):
outrank them and I was able todo it.
Like you know, I was able to ina geographic area, uh, based
upon them, and I was able to doit.
Like you know, I was able to ina geographic area based upon
these things, I was able tooutrank the inventor of it.
Going back to what you said hey, like if you're not putting
yourself out there, you could bethe best SEO in the world, but
if no one knows about it or youhaven't put it out there in the
way that the LLMs understand itand I think Google is just a big
(37:37):
LLM myself Like it's just a bigmachine learning tool, like you
got to feed it the right dataand it's it's learning and it
doesn't know everything today,but man, the trajectory rate is
like crazy, but I but I agreethat if you're talking about
random stuff over here, it'sgoing like that.
That, based on math and a vector, is not close to what you
(37:59):
typically talk about over hereand I've seen a lot of case
studies where you chop that dataoff and it just kind of
slingshots sites up in keywordsranking, even though keyword
ranking is not a factor anymoreand we shouldn't be looking at
that, but I would love to justhear kind of your take on that
and how your approach to it is,because there are some new tools
(38:21):
doing some of those type itemsand even I was playing with
loading content and buildingsome really advanced prompts and
some of the different LLMs andI was getting some pretty cool
outputs.
But I still feel like it'spretty early and not a lot of
SEOs.
This is not in their toolkitand I want to try to give them
(38:43):
something actionable to startthinking about when they're
thinking about content.
Because what I'm hearing islike we're just going to
generate a bunch of content withchat, gbt, with basic prompts
and no tuning, and we're goingto post it and that stuff's
getting unranked Like that'sgetting delisted.
That stuff's not, it's justdiluting, it's just creating a
(39:05):
bunch of noise, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, Um, it's interesting from from that
perspective.
So from an econ side, from amarketplace side, like what I'm
dealing with, Apartmentscom hasthe benefit of being a leader
and a legacy brand, right, yeah,name, and we are always getting
(39:28):
brand references and mentionsand that type of thing.
Do we see competition from otherfolks in the space?
Yeah, of course Everyone'scompeting against everyone else.
So I guess we have a little bitof luxury in saying, hey, let's
look at a certain geography,let's figure out what content
we're missing here, Because wealways have on our site a
(39:49):
summary of an area, a guidearound why you would want to
live there.
We have some data-drivencontent pages, like our average
rent pages that exist.
But sometimes we're getting thequestions going hey, what's the
top neighborhood for X, Y and Z?
I mentioned San Diego, right,let's go back to that.
What's the top beachsideneighborhood for someone that
(40:10):
wants to be near the water?
We get those types of questionsand if we're going to write
that one, we need to make surewe have the right data and that
we're authoritative on it.
I don't want to say we'recheating, but apartmentscom is a
part of CoStar Group.
Our goal is to digitize theworld's real estate and have
those data points.
So it's very easy for us to getthat and make the right
(40:32):
decisions, but then figure outhow we write that content and
support it.
But we almost kind of have tobreak it up in certain areas and
focus on one thing at a timeand we can see when we focus on
that one thing that does greatand then you kind of move on to
the next one.
But you almost can't let it.
You can't rest on your laurels,in a sense, right Like you
can't not forget about the onesthat you've already been working
(40:59):
on.
We also have, I guess, blogs iskind of what I call them that
go after and work for both thelandlord side and the renter
side.
So we're trying to target bothof those audiences and in that
case we're trying to covermultiple different approaches to
topics.
Right, Like, what are thequestions that people were
asking?
Are the questions changing orare new questions coming up
because of new technologies orthings like that?
(41:20):
Do we need to go back andupdate old content or laws
changing?
So a big one that, like we'vetalked about a good amount in
the past is the New York CityFair Act.
So for folks that aren'tfamiliar, like New York City
used to have broker fees was aconcept and the Fair Act
essentially eliminated this.
So there's historically beencontent from us and from other
(41:43):
folks like hey, how do younegotiate the idea and navigate
the idea of broker fees in NewYork City?
That's not a thing anymore.
Navigate the idea of brokerfees in New York City?
That's not a thing anymore.
So that content's almost notnecessary.
But it was something that wasneeded to become an authority on
that topic in the past.
So you're kind of thinkingabout that.
But now, all right, does thatcontent need to exist anymore?
No, unless maybe you want totalk about the idea of that
(42:05):
going away and how you thinkabout it now, but how you
thought about it two years agodoesn't matter anymore.
So, yes, there's some value andbenefit in content pruning in
that sense.
But I think you've got to focuson what you're capable of doing
within the skills, thetechnology and the bandwidth
(42:27):
you're working with, right, Imean, you can't be the knowledge
of everything.
If you're trying to divide yourattention across five different
things, it's the whole.
You know I'd rather whole-asssomething than half-ass, two
things type of thing.
If you can, and you can do thateffectively, that's great.
But I generally try andencourage these days like focus
(42:50):
on a certain area and becomewell known in that area and talk
about that and publish contentthat's helpful for your renters,
your customers, your whateverin that particular area.
But cover off on those topicsand make sure that you're well
versed in them before you moveon to the next thing.
(43:10):
You can start to do that, moveon to the next thing if you need
to, but just know other folksmight be playing catch up or,
you know, the competition mightnot be sleeping on that and they
might go down a path that youhaven't.
So just need to continue tothink about that.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
I think that's great advice about going deep right
and you really need to becomethat subject matter expert on
that one thing.
And I try to give that advicewhen I'm doing coaching to
smaller brands because, likegoing up against apartmentscom,
you're already I call it like ajet stream, like you get to the
(43:50):
top right and it just peoplekeep mentioning you and traffic
keeps coming and you just you'rekind of floating up there, uh,
and if you keep doing some stuffyou can maintain that that jet
stream.
But if you're you're not, thatyou got to punch through to the
top and you got to focus on onearea, maybe where someone is
sleeping or where, where you'relaser focused on that, that
(44:11):
target persona, I just I thatresonates with me on the advice.
I have one follow-up questionfor you.
Yeah, traffic just just gettingcrushed Right.
At least that's what I'm seeing, that's what Rand talked about.
Right Traffic is?
Is 58.5% getting cut?
I'm not quite seeing that.
(44:32):
I'm.
I'm seeing something more like15, 20% drops.
Some clients are actuallybucking the trend.
Um, but I do agree that thetraffic that comes to your site
is a lot more educated, a lotmore transactional.
They're well-researched and andI'm curious how you're mapping?
Or is there a renewed emphasison mapping, like the UX of what
(44:56):
people are doing when they getto your site, and like where
they get stuck and thenidentifying hey, like a lot of
people maybe in the search areasking this question, we're
gonna build content for this.
Or like, how are you deciding?
Yeah, that's my question howare you deciding what content
you should build next with theamount of information you have?
And then also, how are youlooking at the customer journey,
(45:20):
because you have so much data,like, how are you, how are you
viewing all that?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, I'll go into it as much as I can.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, tell me just yeah, whatever, I'm just
interested, it's really uh, yeah, public company public company
perspective is always fun um, sowe do a fair amount of surveys.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
We're always asking renters, landlords, uh, property
management companies what arethe things that you're seeing,
what?
What is it something that youcare about like a good one, that
is public, that I can talkabout like give or take?
I think this is our secondquarter renter survey.
Then, some of those days goneout, somewhere in the 40% range
(45:59):
of folks are willing to rent anapartment sight unseen, because
they've looked at it from a 3dtour or a video and that gives
them enough of the information.
And folks will actually notrent something that doesn't have
that unit level information anddetail.
So in that case it's trying toprovide what folks are looking
(46:23):
for.
So we're getting the feedbackfrom our customers going hey,
these are the things we careabout.
Number one typically is alwaysprice point Cool, well, let's
figure out how we can supportthat conversation from a price
point perspective and eitheroffer new product features or
new elements on our page thathelp you understand that process
, or you get those types ofthings where, hey, you know,
(46:46):
having a 3D tour is veryimportant oh, cool, we own a
company that does that.
Let's make sure we'reintegrating that properly and
that's something we've done alot of lately since the
acquisition is integrate thateffectively into our site.
I think the other thing thereis, you know we're just trying
to continue to improve on theuser experience and
(47:09):
understanding that journey moreeffectively.
To your second question, iffolks are coming in, we still
see folks coming in on some ofthe informational content that
we create.
We also see folks coming deeperin the funnel.
We see folks coming on thebrand.
I think to your point earlier.
We've tried to figure out waysof saying, hey, the folks that
(47:29):
are coming in here, based on thenavigational path we see them
taking, they're trying to getfrom here to here.
So we've tried to revisit a lotof our page templates and
understand that user journey tosupport them with what they're
looking for.
They may come in alreadywell-educated and they might be
further down that conversionfunnel where they're going.
Hey, I know I want to live inthe Buckhead neighborhood of
(47:52):
Atlanta and I want an apartmentwith two bedrooms and a pool
that has a doorman and they'reable to execute that search and
get in and find exactly whatthey're looking for.
We might have folks that justsay, hey, I don't know what
neighborhood to live in, but Igot to move to Atlanta and
you're much higher up thatfunnel.
So it's trying to support thatnavigational aspect down the
(48:14):
funnel that says hey, youstarted out here, let's help you
find the best neighborhood foryou, maybe based on price, maybe
based on what you like to do inyour free time and navigate
them down.
Well, you know, maybe theBuckhead neighborhood is best
for you because of this.
Here's how you can drill downeven deeper.
(48:36):
Now you can figure out how muchit costs you.
Oh, you're moving from anentirely different city.
Hey, here's the cost of livingdifferential.
So, based on this, you'removing from New York City to
Atlanta.
That money might bring you alot further in what you can
afford.
So now, based on general rulesof looking at real estate and
how much money you should spendon rent, here are properties
that you could look at that fityour new budget and fit your
lifestyle.
So we're trying to providethose touch points during the
(48:59):
journey that help to say, hey,depending on where you come in,
how do we bring you to the nextthing and how do we bring you to
eventually finding the rightplace for you to live?
And either go take a tour, lookat media, submit a lease or an
application, but we're trying tosupport the entire funnel and
(49:19):
how you come in from the side ofit.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
I hear you got to have stuff mapped out like down
to a T.
You got to know exactly what'sgoing on and then really looking
at that next step of the data,I love that.
Um, we've covered a lot today.
Um, I, uh, I have some otherquestions about, like, the
future, because you'regenerating so much content and
(49:43):
you have a lot of visuals.
So you know, I'm seeing all the, you know meta glasses and all
this kind of stuff.
So I'm going to have to haveyou back on as that becomes more
in the zeitgeist, um, but Iwould love to see how y'all are
incorporating that and and allthe content that you're creating
with Matterport.
I think super, super interesting.
When I first saw that tool Iwas I was blown away.
(50:05):
It was amazing.
So that's awesome, uh, thatyou're with such a
forward-thinking company.
What is anything that maybe wehadn't covered that you want to
share?
What are some interestingprojects that maybe you're
working on?
When's your next talk?
How can people find out moreabout you?
I would love to talk a littlebit more about that.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Yeah.
So for me, my passion is reallyin all things SEO, so I've
historically done a lot ofspeaking and educating on the
technical SEO side.
I've kind of fanned out alittle bit from that.
So some of my talks at PubConwere more on the content heavy
side of things.
I also did a talk on how towork effectively with your
developers.
You know there's a lot ofconversation around SEO and
(50:47):
product and how they livetogether.
At Apartmentscom, the SEOperspective lives as a part of
the product organization, sowe're creating things that focus
primarily on users and alsobenefit search engines.
So there's a lot of talk fromfolks in the industry around how
to think about product SEO andthat's something that I've been
enjoying drilling into because Iget to create things that I see
(51:10):
people use and that theythey're excited about touching
and interfacing with um, likeour cost of living data.
I referenced that earlier.
That's new for us.
We launched that um uh, almostsix plus months ago now.
Um, but that was a new idea forus to kind of go.
I'm like, hey, we have folksasking about this thing, let's
create it.
Oh cool.
It also happens to have a lot ofdemand from the search engine
(51:34):
perspective, from the gender ofengine perspective.
Well, let's make sure we havethe content that supports that
need.
But I've also kind of venturedout Like my role is also from,
like a leadership perspective,right, Like I still do some
day-to-day, because, A I enjoyit and B I want to stay sharp,
(51:57):
but a lot of it's how to managea team, how to have that team
work effectively with developers.
So my next talk is actually adigital summit in Minneapolis
where I'll be talking about,like how to lead a team
effectively and build thatcohesion in between them.
Even from the technical side,like one of my weird passions, I
would say that one of thethings I love more than
structured data is replatformingis in migrations.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
And.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
I think maybe I'm mental for saying that because
most folks think that's theiridea of hell.
But for me, like your brain isa.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
You got an engineering brain like
everything's got a map right.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
It's a fun puzzle to solve right.
It's an exercise in compromise,in time management, in knowing
how to develop requirements,understanding the data
implications of doing things.
Those are all things that Ienjoy.
So, like myself, and there'sanother gentleman on my team
that is also big into doing thatLike maybe we're weird, but
(52:53):
that's just something we'veenjoyed doing.
I think at this point in mycareer I've done if not over
close to 100 different forms ofreplatformings, migrations,
redesigns, things like that.
So you end up seeing andlearning so much about the
technical side of SEO, but alsothe interpersonal side of how
you work with other people, howyou work with developers, how
(53:15):
you communicate between adeveloper and a CMO and how you
change what you talk about inthose cases.
It's one of those things whereit's interesting and it's fun to
me, but it's also taught me alot in my career and helped make
me, like I said, I've beendoing this for about 15 years,
but I feel like I have even moreknowledge than that because
I've worked with so manydifferent scenarios of those
(53:37):
types of things andunderstanding how all these
different brands and categoriesmight work.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
I feel like that's a talk in a podcast on its own,
talking about enterprise levelmigrations and figuring out do
we need to move all this content?
You got huge sites right andthat had been there for years
and years and years and you'relike let's change it over and
you need to do that right.
You need to do that and how doyou do that effectively and what
(54:05):
are the things you need tobring across?
And at a large organization,there's a lot of red tape and
approvals and people that haveto correspond.
I think that that's a reallyamazing topic I got so, before
we move on to the last question,I wanted to know, like, where
are you most active, like?
(54:26):
So I know you speak a lot.
Are you LinkedIn I'm assumingit's a good place to find out
what you're doing or is theresomewhere else that people want
to check out?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
LinkedIn is where I would say I'm most active,
typically also active on X, alittle bit on blue sky and kind
of navigating around thereTrying to get into blogging more
.
So maybe more to come there.
But I think even to your pointof explaining to the gender of
engines and the search enginesthat you're a knowledgeable
entity on things.
I feel like I need to do moreblogging.
I like doing this type of stuffwhere it's a conversation
(54:57):
rather than writing, but tryingto do more of that.
So, yeah, definitely come chatwith me on LinkedIn, come chat
with me on X or Blue Sky, andlook forward to that.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Awesome.
So we've talked about so muchtoday and people that listening
are at different levels of wherethey're at in their SEO journey
.
If we brought it back to onething, maybe it's something you
mentioned, maybe it's somethingyou haven't, but what's one tip
(55:32):
you would give to people todaythat's actionable, that they
could do something with to tryto figure out what to do with
all the changes that are comingdown the pipe?
Speaker 1 (55:38):
Yeah, something that's been sticking in my head
for a couple of months now andfor anyone that was at SEO Week
or saw my participation there, Iwas on a panel with Jory Ford
and Ann Laurie, and one thingthat Ann said really continues
to stick with me, and it's theidea of don't try to get fancy
without making sure that you'redoing the basics correctly.
(56:00):
There's still a fundamental needto make sure that your website
is crawlable, that you'rehandling the technical
components of SEO.
A lot of these LLMs andgenerative engines don't
understand any form ofJavaScript and, as much as
Google says that they do, Istill see them struggle with
certain components of it.
Other search engines strugglemore with it.
(56:21):
Don't try and get fancy withdoing a whole bunch of different
AI stuff if your site's noteven properly crawlable or if
you don't have an understandingof it is more so for enterprise
sites and larger sites.
But your crawl budget and howit's being used and how much of
your site search engines andgeneral engines are actually
seeing.
Maybe spend some time lookingat your log files, but
(56:43):
understanding where you havethose gaps in your technical
foundation and addressing thatbefore you try and do the really
fancy stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:51):
Yeah, I'm going to have to have Lori on to talk
about the log files, causethat's foundation and addressing
that before you try and do thereally fancy stuff.
Yeah, I'm going to have to haveLori on to talk about the log
files, cause that's.
Thanks so much, zach, for forcoming on for everyone listening
.
If you want to grow yourbusiness with the largest, most
powerful tool on the planet,reach out to EWR for more
revenue in your business.
Thank you so much, zach, forcoming on until Until the next
(57:12):
time.
Everyone, my name is MattBertram.
Bye-bye for now.
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