A Candid Conversation with Former Pastors Wife, Apostate Anne on Faith and Relationships: Episode 11

Episode Summary Jeramiah Giehl engages in a dialogue with Apostate Anne, unraveling her journey from a pastor's wife to apostasy. They delve into shared encounters with prophecy, healing, and spiritual practices such as speaking in tongues and laying on of hands. The discussion extends to the performative aspects of ministry, exploring the use of music and lighting to evoke emotions among congregants. The impact of departing from the church on personal lives and relationships is thoroughly examined, including the newfound quality time spent with family and friends post-church departure. The conversation also navigates the process of deconstructing belief systems and forging a fresh path forward. Jeramiah and Anne venture into the realm of atheism, exploring the challenges of parenting ethically and finding happiness. Anne proposes that children develop their own moral compass, with a focus on cultivating healthy relationships and boundaries as a cornerstone of morality. Their discourse extends to the historical existence of Jesus, tracing their conclusions through meticulous research and consultation of various sources, including Joel Baden, Ma Munger, Erman, David McDonald, and Kipp, encompassing a vast library of over a thousand books. Embracing reality and confronting adversity head-on is explored as an alternative to seeking refuge in fantasy. Apostate Anne and Jeramiah Giehl elaborate on the inception of their podcast and the imperative of rendering academic scholarship accessible to the masses. Anne unveils her online persona, "Apostate," as a dual mechanism to safeguard her family from religious zealots and challenge unaddressed inquiries within Christianity. They candidly share personal transformations, emphasizing resilience and wellness through confronting challenges directly. Apostate Anne also highlights her podcast, "ApoState of Mind," dedicated to scrutinizing Biblical myths and contradictions, and their show, "Belief Battles," designed to encourage open dialogue and belief examination. In sum, this discourse underscores the significance of embracing a reality-grounded existence while fostering openness to diverse viewpoints. Action Items9:05 Apostate Anne reflects on her past experiences with healing and prophecy and challenge her beliefs surrounding them.23:07 Apostate Anne starts fresh and reevaluate her beliefs based on evidence.33:05 Apostate Anne will continue to have open and honest conversations with her children about sex education, focusing on practical information and protection rather than religious beliefs.44:51 Apostate Anne will focus on having mutual relationships where there is appreciation and reciprocity.55:34 Apostate Anne will continue to research and gather information from various sources, including Joel Baden, Ma Munger, Erman, David McDonald, and Kipp, to further understand the historical accuracy of the Jesus of the Bible.1:01:44 Apostate Anne and her husband will continue their podcast, Apostate of Mind, to bring academic perspectives and new scholarship to a wider audience.1:02:18 Apostate Anne will continue hosting the show "Belief Battles" on Tuesdays at 7:30, where believers or theists can call in and share their beliefs or challenge their disbelief. Key Questions5:50 How does music play a role in worship and preparing people to receive the message?7:42 What is your perspective now of the prophecy and the healing?19:42 If a prophecy doesn't come true, does that mean it wasn't God's will?26:00 What kind of things did you notice behind the scenes of ministry work? Keywords:Church, Bible College, Relationships, Believer, Marriage, Journey, Worship, Healing, Prophecy, Pastor, Evidence, Speaking in Tongues, Boundaries,

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
All right, there's another episode of Pulling the Threads
podcast, and I'm interviewing Apostate and from the Apostate
Mind podcast. And yeah, so you want to tell me
a bit of your background? Were you raised Christian?

(00:32):
What was I guess, your faith upbringing?
Yes. So I couldn't say that I grew up
religious. I didn't grow up in the church
per se, but I grew up in the South and I did have a very
religious family, aunts, uncles,cousins.
And so I feel like everybody around me was always religious

(00:53):
because I feel like that's all I've ever known and.
Yeah, that was the majority of everybody's beliefs around me.
But I didn't grow up in the church.
So then later on down the road, met my husband, got married,
someone advised us, like, hey, for to have a good, successful

(01:18):
marriage. It's good to center your
relationship in Christ. And the closer you get to
Christ, you know, the closer youare to each other.
So we really started going to church together.
We were baptized together. Then my husband really, you
know, got on fire for the Lord and and started to pursue a
bachelor's degree, then a master's degree in the local

(01:40):
studies. He became a pastor.
So then I was, you know, the pastor's wife.
And even before that, I would always like go on mission trips
and be. Trying to live a godly life,
even though I wasn't deep into the religion until later on.

(02:01):
Well, I have to say that that's quite different to you now.
I don't know. Coming out as an apostate in
your, in your name there, you know so, so you were involved
with missions and stuff. So part of like like the
intersection with us is like, I don't know if you mind me

(02:22):
saying, but I went to Covenant Church.
I don't know if that's. Something You're coming.
That's where we're baptized. OK.
So yeah, I mean, I I find that that's interesting that, you
know, I'm in San Diego now and kind of on a similar journey of
deconstructing, moving away fromChristianity, looking for more

(02:44):
scientific, historically grounded truths, stuff like
that. So now you did.
Did you go to a Bible college oranything?
Or were you involved in ministryyourself?
Well, I went to a Methodist school, but it wasn't like a
practicing religious school. But because I was a music major

(03:08):
at the time, I was recruited by the local campus ministry to be
part of their worship team. So, like, that's when I was
learning a lot of the worship songs for the first time, the
songs that other people grew up knowing and singing.
And so that was sort of my involvement in the church.
In addition to like teaching Sunday school and volunteering

(03:31):
and that kind of thing, you did some mission trips.
Where? Where did you do mission trips
to? I did a week in San Francisco
serving the homeless. The week in Nashville, serving
the homeless out there. And then a week in Juarez,
Mexico. Building houses.
OK yeah. I mean I was involved with

(03:53):
missions work, helped build a church down Tijuana area you
know did missions in Europe and Mexico and stuff like that.
So I yeah, I can relate to that.So yeah, the, the, so you were
on the the worship team involvedwith worship music a bit.

(04:18):
So I don't know. It depends on what traditions
you come from. But the traditions I was in
there was this idea of you saturate them in the music to
get them more pliable to obeyingthe word kind of thing.
How how would you track that? Totally.

(04:39):
You're you're preparing their hearts to receive the message.
And yeah, that's something I definitely heard is like it's
not necessarily the message where the transformation's
happening. It's, you know, the worship
time. That's when you see people
really feeling it and and definitely like having the
performance and music backgroundand then going to the church

(05:01):
world that was. Some of the similarities I saw
is that sometimes, you know, it is somewhat put on and they do
say like, OK, you know, put yourhands up and close your eyes and
like those kind of things to make it more, you know, you're
leading worship, you're leading others to also feel free to do

(05:23):
the same thing. But there's some a lot of
intention behind all of that. Yeah, very performative.
You know, they're what the Vineyard Church they, they
called power evangelism. But their their whole thing was
you saturate them in the music and then it prepares them to be

(05:46):
receptive to the word very more cohesive.
You know, one of the guys I interviewed recently was former
Calvary Chapel and you know, he was pretty aware of of that
whole thing. What?
What tradition of Christianity were you guys like?
What kind of vein did you guys go in?
I would say non denominational, but as you know Covenant Church

(06:09):
is a little bit more evangelical.
You know they may speak in tongues.
So I also have some exposure to that like healing by touching
and and prophecy speaking in tongues.
I I was also exposed to that. What is your perspective?

(06:30):
Charismatic, Charismatic. Yeah, that's the word.
What is your perspective now of the prophecy and the healing?
Because we're going to kind of jump around now just because I
kind of feel like it's a good thing to ask at this point.
We haven't got to your journey, how you've you come to believe
differently than that, but let'sjust kind of hop forward in

(06:54):
time. What, what, what?
How do you explain prophecy and healing now?
Healing. I'll define some of my
experience a little bit demon possession, stuff like that.
I experienced people who are allegedly demon possessed on
mission trips, people who've experienced emotional abuse and

(07:18):
I know they have a traumatic personal life and I've never
seen healing that was miraculousand couldn't be explained by.
I don't know if you've heard theplacebo effect, but have you
ever seen anything in the realm of prophetic or healing that you

(07:40):
would say was miraculous, or howdo you view that now?
No, I I haven't. And it wasn't until I let go of
the belief or that I was challenging my beliefs that I
really reflected on all those things that I thought were you
know, healing or a prophecy and was like well that was pretty

(08:01):
vague as far as prophecy goes. Or and I could be a self
fulfilling prophecy like a prophet tells you.
You're traveling to Europe, and so you buy a ticket to Europe.
And that prophecy came true. But in terms of healing, like,
there was nothing even close. I mean, and I I had visitors

(08:22):
come to the church that were healers.
And I had my, you know, sick grandfather come and, you know,
make sure he got to the front ofthe line to get prayed over.
And you know, there was never anything that I can speak to to
say there was a healing that took place.
So were you at Covenant Church when they kind of had a focus on

(08:42):
the being health ministries? I don't know there was there was
a there was a group that would meet there and it was it was
based out of it was interesting because it was based out of
Georgia and and they were havingbecause I remember when I
because so part of my story I I was going to Covenant church

(09:05):
when I around the time that I met my ex and we started couples
counseling there but yeah while we're there that they had
started doing like this being help ministry thing but that was
circa 2006 maybe. So I don't know what time you
guys went there, but anyways, itwas focused on healing and to be

(09:30):
honest in all of my experience and you touched on like the
prophecy and the healing. I was involved with a lot of big
name ministries. I don't know if you know of the
Brownsville revival, Pensacola, FL.
Like I traveled out there. There were people who came to
the church I was at. There was a lot of passionate

(09:52):
preaching, the laying on of hands, everybody falling out.
I remember 1 experience it was somebody was praying over me and
it's the only time I fell down. But it wasn't because of
anything spiritual. His breath was so bad.
I wanted to get away. It was bad.
And after that, I, like, I went up to the pastor because I I

(10:15):
worked at the church and I was like, we need Tic Tacs.
So, and it's also that social pressure, right?
You can't be the only one not falling back.
What's that going to say about you?
Right. So yeah, there was a lot of
pressure. And I would say because I had
experienced a, you know, like abuse in my childhood and trauma

(10:38):
when somebody's offering something.
There's a belief paradox that somebody told me that if you're
told for like a year that you have a mole on your head, but
you don't have a mole on your head, you'll start to believe
it. And over time, your body will
start to manifest as if it's true because you're the power of

(10:59):
your mind, the belief paradox. You're you're, you know.
So I feel like I was being led in a way that I started to feel
like there was spiritual things that now, you know, factually it
could have been happened so. I remember one time thinking I
was speaking in tongues, and even in the moment I'm like,

(11:19):
what? Was I really speaking in tongues
or did I kind of put it on, you know that, but in your head
you're like. OK.
I'm just going to let these words flow through, the spirit
flow through. And you think that's really
happening. You should.
She should. Was it the she, she bought a
Honda, She should have bought a Hyundai?

(11:41):
Yeah, that kind of stuff. So, OK, so your experience with
being coaxed into speaking in tongues, I say being coaxed
because most of the time that I've ever seen it required a
person laying their hands on you, encouraging you, them doing
it kind of repeat after me, there's it was like you said, a

(12:03):
lot of social pressure. But I also don't think that's
what that text was referring to,but that they used to support
the. I think it was actually like
translating things into another language to speak to people,
which would be different. Right.
They're used to glossilaily. It might not be what it was
intended for, but was your experience when you when you

(12:29):
first spoke in tongues? How did that go about?
I was on the worship team, so onthe stage and you know, singing
and it was just a moment of prayer and so I was just like
trying to. Let the spirit flow through me
and like so then I was just like, you know, gibberish, but

(12:52):
then thinking like was that or wasn't it?
Or maybe I did and you know, just going through through that,
but that was really the only time that that happened, but it
was during you know. It was by myself in a way.
But if I'm on stage, you know, praying.

(13:14):
But I mean, you're on stage, you're performing in a
charismatic church. It's performative worship and
there's expectations. So maybe there's some social
pressure involved with this. I don't know.
I mean, I felt like my experience, you know, there was
a bunch of people with their hands around me.

(13:35):
It was a lot of she should have bought a Honda stuff going on
and, you know, it seemed physiological and performative,
something I could call up and doalmost anytime, but I don't
think it had any significant benefit, you know?
Yeah, there's no real purpose. If no one understands you and I

(13:58):
remember being confused like, well, then why?
And you know, someone told me, well, it's an angelic language
and it's like, well, don't they understand my regular language?
Like why do I have to speak in alanguage that only they
understand or you know? That didn't make sense to me.
Yeah. Well, and then it calls back to

(14:19):
like Ancient Greek when they hadthe ecstatic prophets and, you
know, the worship of Pagan gods and people would go into those
altered state of consciousness and start doing something like
that. But is that really necessary,
you know, in any kind of belief system, the the kind of altered
states of consciousness where you got there.

(14:40):
So I would say, you know where those viewing the podcast who
are Christian might think we just blaspheming the Holy Spirit
since we're talking about it andnot believing in it.
And actually I was going to say even before that.
So my husband went to Dallas Theological Seminary and that
was one of the gifts that was considered a dead gift, like it

(15:03):
was no longer in play. So even their very conservative
religious views kind of felt like speaking in tongues was.
Either dead or out of order if you're doing it search.
If you don't have a translator, it's considered out of order.
So even among the religious, it's not necessarily an accepted

(15:24):
practice across the board. Yeah.
Well and you guys are in Texas. So Bible belts a little more
conservative when it comes to belief.
You know I I'm out here in San Diego and the charismatic in
we're definitely a little more unhinged when it comes to being
grounded in that more Baptist tradition.

(15:46):
But but yeah, so and I think we'll kind of circle back to
some of that. But so you're in ministry.
You're on the worship team. What caused you to like you and
your husband? Like where did you guys go on
your journey that you started to, like, question the validity
of your experiences and your belief?
Like, where did you go that thisexperience, this spiritual

(16:10):
experience of speaking in tongues, healing and prophecy,
you started to question these things.
So my husband worked at a churchand was a pastor and he was let
go at the time and it was for like they didn't have a budget
for him and a worship pastor andthey really needed a worship

(16:30):
pastor and that was what happened.
But when we stopped going to church.
We then tried to find other churches to go to.
Well, first of all, when we stopped going to church, we were
like, man, this is nice. We can sleep in.
We're spending way more time with our kids.
We're having a Big Breakfast andsitting at the table, and that's

(16:51):
way more valuable than sticking your kids in childcare and being
in church for three hours. And you know, it was.
It was. We were kind of burned out at
that point because we were so involved.
So we we really loved not going for a little bit, but once we
were like okay, it's time to go back to church.
We visited a few and at that point we kind of saw all the

(17:15):
behind the scenes at that point to where we couldn't Unsee it.
Now we saw all the production behind it, you know, knew all
the work of the volunteers that went on to put this on.
But that was separate. Like we were still believers for
a long time after that, but thatwas just sort of like dipping

(17:36):
our toe and and walking away from the church for a little
bit. But for me, I think the whole
Trump thing, like seeing first of all that he wasn't reelected.
So I had heard a prophecy that he would get another term.
And so the fact that that didn'thappen was like, OK.

(17:59):
That prophecy was wrong. So maybe God doesn't have a
purpose for this very terrible leader.
I know that's controversial. But you know, just Speaking of
what I was seeing, because I waslistening to all the rallies and
just seeing what he was saying and promoting hate, and I just
couldn't reconcile that. So anyway, I couldn't reconcile

(18:24):
that being God's will. And so once he wasn't reelected
and that prophecy didn't come true, then I was like, OK, well,
maybe it's not God's will. And and there was other things
like I was always bothered by, you know, the homo, the stance
on homosexuality within the church.
So that was something else. I was like, I mean, if God is

(18:47):
love and this is love, like, maybe the Bible's wrong about
this. And if the Bible's wrong about
that? Maybe the Bible could be wrong
about other things, so there wasthat.
But in the meantime, my husband was also watching a lot of
YouTube videos from biblical scholars who were teaching

(19:10):
mythicism, like teaching about the similarities between myths
and the Bible, and showing all the ways the Bible was
inconsistent, showing all the ways it was not historically
accurate. So I remember him sharing this
with me like, oh, historically Exodus didn't happen.
Historically, Jews were never like slaves and that whole

(19:33):
narrative and I was just like, what?
Like that's a huge part of the Bible story and and about Moses
existence and whether he was theauthor of the first five books
of the Bible and so. All of those things were put
into question. So it's like, well, that's not
true. Then this isn't true, then this

(19:54):
isn't true. And and I just like everything
was put into question. So then I remember reaching a
point where I was like, OK, scrap it all like just start
fresh and what is it that you know, like what can I say?

(20:16):
I know for a fact. And everything that I knew for a
fact had evidence. And the things of the Bible
didn't, you know, like even the notion of a soul or a spirit,
those are unproven claims. So yeah, it just wasn't passing

(20:44):
the evidence test. And then when I would ask
Christians or read what the Christian response was, it was
such fallacies being used, like,well, if it's not true, why
would all these people believe it?
Well, that's not an answer. Just because a lot of people
believe it doesn't mean it's true.

(21:06):
Or oh, you're it's just too great for you to understand in
your human brain, you know, God's just too big.
He doesn't fit in our brain. And it's like really like, I can
understand a lot of things like this seems like a pretty easy
question to answer, and if he's real, like, it should be pretty
easy and evident. And it just wasn't like that.

(21:29):
That was such a fallacy. Like, oh, don't you worry,
you're Pretty Little head about that question.
And so it was just like the answers were insufficient on one
side and the evidence was overwhelming on the other side.
So anyway, Long story short, I was just like, OK, I'm only
going to believe what the evidence points to.
I'm going to let the evidence lead to my conclusions instead

(21:53):
of trying to fit my world into my beliefs.
Does that make sense? No, it makes perfect logical
sense. So I have questions based on
things you said. So when you're SO when you came
back. You started to see the behind
the scenes, the the making up ofthe things that happened when

(22:14):
your husband was in ministry. You didn't see it the first
time? No, cuz we're like being leaders
and servants and we're doing this.
But now when you're on the receiving end, you're like, you
know, the work that it took to get those PowerPoint
presentation, the lyrics on the board, you know that those
worship singers, you know, we'reprompted to, you know, do this

(22:41):
or play like this in this momentto, you know, make this emotion
stir in you. So there was just some things
that when you were on the receiving end instead of the
serving end, that became more apparent you you think more
about the people behind those actions?
OK, yeah, well, part of my journey, you know, I went to, I

(23:04):
was involved in lay ministry. Youth ministry.
Then I went to Bible college, You know, I did submission work,
was like a young adult pastor, small group pastor, stuff like
that, heavily involved with likelot of the revival and prophetic
stuff. But I worked at a church

(23:27):
probably, you know, before I went to the Bible college.
So I got to see kind of the behind the scenes, the pastors.
Wife was the worship leader. And while I was working there, I
got to see a lot of the ingredients that went into the
soup and lot of performative, you know, using music to, you

(23:50):
know, for the altar calls and when they're doing their altar
calls for money and all the different performative aspects,
even to the point that my pastorcared what.
The A/C was set at 72 degrees because it facilitates the
feeling of the Holy Spirit and Iwas like, why does the Holy

(24:11):
Spirit need 72 degrees? Like what is this?
So seeing the the machinations behind it I I was like there's a
performance base to this just not I'm not cool with so I I saw
that early on and you know. The the, you know, my other

(24:33):
friend that I had on here interviewed recently, you know
he he saw it through his experience.
It's kind of different like in the different like regions,
denominational movements, movements that you're in.
But so like what kind of things did you notice behind the
scenes? I guess you mentioned a couple
of them, but is there any more, like detail you could give to

(24:56):
like just the stuff that you realize kind of behind the
scenes? Yeah, I mean, even the lighting,
you know, like making sure people feel comfortable really
outpouring their worship becauseit's dark.
Even I took some music writing classes and even just like I

(25:17):
once was lost and you do a minorchord and now I'm found and it's
a major chord and just like those kind of intentional every
intentional move to to bring outthat emotion.

(25:37):
And I think just in general, probably my husband too, just
learning about the board memberswho are the ones running the
business of things and that thatwas it for for me.
Just kind of seeing the the ingredients in the soup.

(25:57):
So you mentioned like the the end time prophecies or
prophecies in relation to Trump.I, you know I I was definitely
gone by the time that happened. I would.
I had exited 2014 so but I had seen the precursors of that and

(26:21):
I was hearing the. The rumbles of of noise.
I did a a a post on my blog recently talking about it's a
loosely affiliated group of the called the New Apostolic or New
Apostolic Reformation. Something like that.
It's a bunch of prophetic peopleand they have influence within

(26:45):
the political realm. One thing I kept hearing, and I
was hearing that back in. 2014 is the end of the world supposed
to, you know, Jesus coming in like 2025 or 2030 and it was
just like this. And I I was talking to a
scholar. I'm not going to name who he is,
but I may have him on the podcast.
The future he's worked with likeWaco and stuff like that.

(27:13):
Apocalypticism can lead to some dangerous things and.
So I was, I was that was one of the things I was uncomfortable
with on my way out, that I'm actually kind of glad I was on
the outside observing it, but also helped me notice things
about my marriage that, you know, my my marriage was was

(27:34):
coming to its foregone conclusion, but not to to go off
track too far there. So what led you?
Were you going to say something?Yeah, I was going to say so.
Actually, during that same time,my husband was still, you know,

(27:55):
really deep. And I was the one questioning
first. And so there came a point where
I was just questioning so much and so long that I felt like I
needed to tell him and like, come out to him and and
originally he did not receive itwell.
Like it was a major point of contention to the point it was

(28:18):
threatening our relationship forfor a day and I then I told him
like then you should leave me ifthat's how you feel you should
leave me. And then after that he didn't
bring it up again and then he started going on his own journey
and and then we were on the samepage.
But just to to relate to what you're saying.

(28:40):
So it took some time to to process that and I can
definitely talk to him about hisshare in that journey when I'm
when I interview him, I mean anychange like that's going to, you
know, definitely cause a rub in the fabric of any relationship.
So but yeah, so I guess what would, what was the next step in

(29:04):
your guys's journey? Where did you guys go from that
point? I mean, so at that point when we
were going to church and we're like just put on, we were just
like, OK, let's just lean into not going.
That's what we are enjoying. That's what we were getting the
most value out of is spending time with our kids and our

(29:28):
families because we we were so involved in the church.
You know, my husband was workingall week and then Saturday
you've got to prepare for service on Sunday.
And then Sunday you have the service and then afterwards
maybe like welcome the new people, give them a tour.
And it's usually Saturdays. I was having the families in the

(29:49):
church at our house almost everyweekend.
So it was like finally, once we took a step away from church, we
finally had time for our family,for our friends.
And so we were really enjoying that.
And OK, so then, you know, I told you I was questioning and
told him and then he went on hisown journey.

(30:11):
And then there came a time wherewe had to come out to our
daughters because we had taught them one way all this time and
they were asking us about it. Like, wait, so you you don't
feel like that anymore or you don't have a problem with this
anymore or. And so we both had to sit down

(30:32):
with them and be like okay, we don't believe anymore.
And here's what that means, and it's it's been a lot of us
deconstructing slowly but surelyand and finding out what that
means to us and what we're goingto do with our new world view.

(30:52):
I have two questions one before I ask my my major question.
How do you define yourselves? Agnostic, Atheist.
Not believer, non believer? Spiritual he my husband would
say he's full on atheist. I would say I I am full atheist.

(31:16):
But I have maybe some unansweredquestions.
Maybe one or two unanswered questions.
And so my followup question to that is how does an atheist
raise good kids and seem to be happy?
It's so much easier than than you would think because it's so

(31:41):
based on reality and it's so practical and based on evidence.
So you know, instead of teachingsex as a sin, wait until
marriage. You know, it may look like, hey,
there's a lot of diseases out there.
Make sure you're protecting yourself.
Make sure you're you're choosingwisely.

(32:01):
Make sure that you pick a partner who's going to treat you
like this and you're truly speaking facts, talking about
some of the risks and pros and cons and and all of that.
I mean, yeah, and. And I know it may sound like.

(32:22):
The reason I ask is because if somebody's watching this and
they're like, oh, they left the Holy Spirit, they're now, you
know, professed atheist, you know, they can't be happy, they
don't have good relationships, they're going to go to hell, you
know, that kind of stuff. So, so I was going to to that
point, my daughter had really bad anxiety and I feel like

(32:46):
being religious added to her anxiety because she felt like
God was always watching her. One thing she told me about is
that one time she felt so guiltybecause she was like barely
stuck up her middle finger to herself in the room by herself
and she was feeling so guilty about that.
So I feel like there's been somepressure lifted as far as that

(33:08):
goes. I think that they if they ever
question their sexuality then that's more of a of a walk that
you've a journey that you feel open to explore without having
to be fearful or feeling like God is judging you.

(33:30):
I think you're more compassionate to other people,
especially I remember they're being atheists in my daughter's
class and and her being like Oh my God, like how could you think
that And this person is evil andlike those kind of things that
you're othering other people when you could be open to get to
know them and get to learn why they believe what they believe.

(33:51):
And you know you're not set to. Everyone around you has to
believe like this. So when you were a Christian in
ministry, would it be fair to say that relationships felt
performative and that there was a level of relationship that it

(34:12):
didn't go beyond it, You know it?
I would have. I would have said I would.
I'd say it's more than just an acquaintance, because how you
doing, I'm highly favored. You're together for your the
discipleship there. There's a certain attractiveness
to Christian fellowship, community, family, but it's

(34:33):
superficial and it's performative, and I think it
lacks some very genuine, deeper personal connections based in
things like you've mentioned, truth.
Facts good. Relationship ethics because when
you're judging the other when you're I I grew up in
California. So I religion out here is a

(34:56):
little more accepting of the other and diverse down South.
I've been there. I lived there for like 9 1/2
years. So I've felt the difference and
it's like to relate definitely it, you know, to those those
aspects. I mean, they're still.
You know California, their theirchallenges is different.

(35:17):
But the performative relationships, like, did you,
you feel like there's a lot of performative relationships and
the authenticity, deftness, truthness, like how has it
changed your relationships now that's a good question.
I mean, in the time I felt like we had deep relationships, maybe

(35:38):
even too much. Like I remember a small group
leader asking about my husband and I sex life and like getting
too deep and too personal for our comfort.
And, you know, I think sometimesthat probably could be helpful
or a good thing. I think sometimes it could be,
you know, I kind of related to Scientology, how you have to

(36:00):
tell them all your secrets to beclear and now they have all
these secrets against you type of thing.
And so there is that pressure tohave to portray that you have
this perfect life and that things are going really well.
So there is that. But I mean, I felt like I had
really deep, good relationships and in fact, I feel like that's

(36:25):
in the atheist world. You you want that.
You wish you did have somewhere where you could connect with
other people the same way. But after we left the church, we
don't talk to hardly any of those people.
They haven't maintained the relationship with us.
So in that way, it may have beena little superficial, or at

(36:48):
least temporary. So I mean, God was the center of
your belief, you know, for a while.
What I mean I mean is these are like basic questions.
I think they're simple, but. What makes you happy?
What makes you feel fulfilled? What gives you direction?

(37:13):
Yeah, I mean I I honestly think because this is OK.
Well I guess not. I was going to say the part of
you that loves to do things is the same part of you whether you
are Christian or non believer. But that's not necessarily true
because sometimes being in the church does take away from the

(37:36):
time of things that you could bedoing that you love, either
because the church is against itor because they take all your
time. But I mean I I found people that
I am likeminded with and connected with.
I have a lot of fun doing lots of things.
Like I paint, I dance, I have great relationships with my

(38:00):
daughters, with my husband, withmy parents.
I think there's lots of joy and happiness I find.
But I I do understand that because that was like the last
step of my deconversion is I'm like, OK, I'm going to step out
of faith and maybe all these badthings are going to happen to
me. Maybe I'm going to get depressed

(38:24):
or suicidal or all the things that you think is coming from
God, but nothing changed. Like all the good things were
still happening to me. All the joys were still there.
As far as what guides me, what guides me more now is logic,
reason, you know what I want outof this life instead of waiting

(38:44):
on what I think God has for me. It was a lot of waiting, a lot
of confusion, a lot of turmoil, inner turmoil that I feel like
now that I have a grasp on reality and reason, it's much
easier to make decisions and if they don't turn out good, if it

(39:05):
goes bad. I mean, that could happen.
Even if you're a believer, it can still go badly for you.
Like good and bad things happen to everybody.
Yeah, and that's the unanswered question by all religions, Like
why did good things or bad things happen to good people?
You know, like, the seasons don't change.
Everything just continues like. Facts, science, you know,

(39:29):
they're how we observe the world, right.
So I mean what? Like what?
You know how how do you give your kids a moral compass.
Like what? What?
You know, how do you raise it's going to sound funny good little
atheist. I mean, how do you raise, you
know, good kids, you know in in the world that you do now when

(39:53):
you're not teaching them the stories that?
You know, Sunday school stories and stuff like that.
Well, really, I mean, as you know, the stories aren't really
that moral for the most part. That's why children's Bibles are
so cut down. They only pick and choose
certain stories and they're highly edited.
So I mean, I think the reason why people resonate with the

(40:17):
stories is because they naturally have their morality in
a sense. You know, people understand like
if if the Bible said rape and harm little children, most
believers would be like, no, that sounds like a bad thing
because you have your own moral compass.

(40:37):
So I mean, I think the most partis doing for the most good.
You have to like speak up and have boundaries for yourself and

(40:59):
and just teaching them what healthy relationships look like
and how does that boundaries is is the biggest way I teach them
that. Interesting.
It's interesting that you talk about boundaries and healthy
relationships, cuz that's probably very important things,
you know, you know? I teach my kids like

(41:21):
mindfulness. You know, to deal with their
anger and healthy relationships is an important thing.
How? How do you think your views of a
of healthy relationships and boundaries has changed from when
it was Christian? How has it gotten better?
A lot. I I feel like as a female and as

(41:46):
a Christian, you're taught a lotof forgiveness.
Turn the other cheek. And, you know, I think
forgiveness is so important for you, but I don't think everybody
deserves that forgiveness or just to like, let it go and keep
loving them unconditionally. And I was doing that with every

(42:06):
relationship to the point of it being not a good thing.
Like, I stayed trying too long when I should have spoken up
sooner. I think I'm a better friend now
because instead of trying to turn it to the positive or
turning it to God has a purpose.God's going to use this.

(42:28):
This is all for good. God is always good.
Now it's like, man, that really sucks, you know?
How can I help? What do you need right now?
I'm. That's way more helpful, less
toxic. Especially like if somebody
dies, you know, to die is not togain if you don't believe that.

(42:52):
I mean, to die is to lose somebody that you love forever
and that should be faced as such.
So it's just like it's there's alot of parts of Christianity
that make you doubt your own voice and your own feelings
because you want to go by God's feelings and what God wants for

(43:14):
you. And I think you sometimes end up
letting too much slide and and not standing up for yourself
enough. OK.
So boundaries, I mean yeah that's a that's a much better
way to live or or like one more thing or even like having mutual

(43:35):
relationships where it's not youalways serving and giving but
also being in a relationship where if they appreciate you and
give to you too and and having that back and forth a two way.
Yeah. And I think that, you know,
that's what I like the performative relationships,
right. You know, you have more
healthier relationships where it's mutual.

(43:59):
So kind of the circle back. I guess on some things you
mentioned mythicism. Now, what is your view of, you
know, do you believe in a historical Jesus?
Is it a myth? I mean, what is your view of
what a big part of your life wasbecause you were a worship

(44:20):
leader, a pastor's wife? What do you make sense of all
that? And what do you believe about
that Now? I think whether historical Jesus
existed or not is irrelevant. You know, it's like saying is
Santa real? Well, with Saint Nicholas
historical, like that's another character, another definition.

(44:45):
We're not talking about that. We're talking about the Jesus of
the Bible. So as far as the Jesus of the
Bible, no, there's there's too many historical documentation
that contradicts the Bible. There's too much scientific
knowledge that contradicts the Bible, archaeological evidence
that contradicts it, and there'stoo much evidence of other

(45:07):
religions having the exact same ancient writings, ancient
stories, ancient beliefs that are the same as the Bible to
where it's like if those other ones we now consider myths.
There's no reason why this one is truth that it's it's has all
the characteristics of those other myths.

(45:33):
Indeed, Jesus of the Bible is a myth.
Oh yeah. The first episode I had on here
was Doctor Robert Price and we were discussing Jesus mythicism
in your journey. And you mentioned like
different. Your husband was studying
different YouTube. What authors you like?
Who were you guys looking to? And what was kind of formulating

(45:56):
your ideas as you were like seeking to deconstruct and to
kind of understand historically accurate truth?
We were watching Joel Baden. I saw some Matt Munger, some

(46:16):
Ermine, some David McDonald, Dr.Kip.
I mean, there's so many to list,a lot of them like my husband
was watching Yale School of Divinity professors, as well as
I think Duke was another one. And and he's got probably over

(46:39):
1000 books that he accumulated as a believer as he went to
Dallas Theological Seminary. So we even consulted those books
too, because we were like, well,what do they, what is this
MacArthur commentary have to sayabout what this other professor
has to say? And it was they admitted it like

(46:59):
there was nothing to say becauseit's true.
And they'd be like, well, other people say that, but, you know,
but it's not necessarily true. Or like there's no evidence to
support their belief, like the religious belief.
But that doesn't mean there's not evidence out there.
It doesn't mean that it wasn't true, but it's like, but there's

(47:21):
evidence to the contrary. So you're not looking at that.
You know you're you're not really taking that in.
So I don't know if if that's clear, but it we looked at both
sides and both sides, we're pointing to the conclusion that
it is not real. Was there any anybody that

(47:44):
specifically kind of stood out to you guys?
Is like the vein that, like, really spoke to you guys or was
just kind of like a compilation of like different people you're
researching. I would say a compilation like
one we were learning about, for example, Joel Baden, we learned
more about the Documentary Hypothesis.

(48:05):
So that's talking about how Moses is not the author, how
it's multiple authors from multiple traditions.
So that's already poking a hole in that.
Meanwhile, we're hearing from another professor talking about,
you know, the Anuma Alesh, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and learning
about all the similarities between that and Jesus.

(48:26):
So, you know, just like that. Just like pieces of the puzzle
from different places, we're allcoming together to paint one
very clear picture. You know, I went on a similar
journey myself. I mean, mine was I I I don't
know if you had a chance, but I have a YouTube video where I
talk about my journey, you know,in the podcast here.

(48:49):
But yeah, like Bart Earman, James Table, I started, you
know, a lot of books, probably like your husband.
I was looking at academically grounded people.
Something that became frustrating to me is.
The cognitive dissonance that you experience when talking to

(49:09):
evangelical apologist or you youmentioned like they'll admit it,
but then they make all these excuses and then they still hold
on to their dogmas and you're just like, Oh yeah, that's a bit
much for me. I I don't like, I like mental
clarity. I don't like having a fog about
something And so that's always just been something that.

(49:33):
I just couldn't put my head around like it if if it's not
true, then it's not true. And something I did also was to
test things against themselves. Part of it was, you know, I was
raised Jehovah's Witness, so that was being raised around the
cult. And and then, you know, from
that point out, everything was kind of like there's a litmus

(49:54):
test and this truth hold up against itself is something that
I always kind of did and then outside sources and stuff like
that. Totally so to that point.
So I, during all this journey, agirl from the church that my
husband was a pastor at reached out to me because I guess she

(50:14):
noticed I had changed a little bit in my posts on Facebook.
And so she reached out and she invited me to go to her church
again and take a course that wasspecifically basically
explaining how, yes, the Bible is similar to all these other
myths, but trying to justify it,trying to explain it away And to

(50:39):
give an example, like I asked the pastor, like, so you're
saying because of what they saidwas that God is using the
stories that were around during that time to then reveal his
truth. So I'm like, he's using lies and
myths to tell truth. Like, how is that?
Why would he do that? Why?

(50:59):
You know why not just tell the truth and and they make the
excuse. Well it's too big of a shift but
there was many things that that the Bible says that were big
shifts in thinking. So that's not an excuse.
Or like when you find the Bible it says let us make man an hour
image because it's talking abouta plural elohim, God's council,

(51:23):
multiple gods. But then they put it Most Bibles
translate that to Lord singular,but the original text is plural
gods. So then his explanation was
like, oh, it's kind of like if you were to say, hey, let's get
pizza, only one person's actually paying for the pizza,

(51:45):
but you would say let us get pizza.
And it was like, that's your explanation.
Like, that doesn't make sense. So it was just a lot of
silliness, silly explanations. The defense, the defense of the
Trinity is quite challenging as well.
I found like there the the New Testament text and arguments in

(52:08):
support of the Trinity. So after coming out, I mean have
you had anybody that was like you're going to hell?
I mean, and I guess, why have you chosen the online persona of
Apostate and as as your Appalachian?
You're embracing it. Yeah.

(52:31):
Well, it's. I'm embracing it, but I'm also
hiding behind it too because Annis anonymous.
And so, you know, I also feel like I do need to protect myself
and my kids and you know, from from people who can be religious

(52:51):
fanatics. But I also feel empowered that
I've challenged so many Christians, even pastors to
their face and they didn't have good answers.
So now I feel empowered to speakout more and and I didn't know a
lot of the things when I was in this belief.

(53:12):
So that also motivates me to like man, I wish somebody had
told me, I wish somebody had challenged me on these or at
least ask me questions to make me hear myself and speak out
loud and try to answer these questions.
And so all of that to say I I feel like it very yeah.

(53:34):
Driven, like, like it's a purpose.
Like it's a need to get the wordout there so I I can use the
apostate and as as a very open persona or front to where you,
you know where I stand up front.All right, and like, what

(53:58):
inspired you and your husband tostart the Apostate of Mind
podcast? I mean I'm given it's probably
this journey but like specifically what kind of
motivated don't I think cuz not many people know and we want to
get the word out and it feel like this is coming out now.
This is a lot of its newer scholarship, new archaeological

(54:20):
findings, and if you're in the bubble of church and apologists,
you're not going to hear the academic side necessarily.
So we're trying to bring the academic side to the masses and
the only way we can think of. Yeah.

(54:40):
Well, I kind of share the same perspective, you know why I'm
doing what I'm doing, you know? Like the document hypothesis is
something I learned in Bible college.
It's funny that in Bible collegethey taught the document
hypothesis for the the to knock,but they didn't teach the the

(55:03):
cue source theory for the New Testament.
So they were critical of the OldTestament, but they were not
critical of the New Testament. And you know.
In Bible college you deal with they they try to harmonize the
Gospels and explain away all thecontradictions.
For me, the hardest problem I had is just there's so many

(55:24):
contradictions harmonizing it just it didn't make sense to me.
So that was kind of, you know, one of my eventual, like
divergent points was, I just don't see how it can be
harmonized. And like Bart Airman and James
Deborres, their material really spoke to me a lot.

(55:47):
There was a lot like Haim Maccabee, the myth maker.
And like, I had a huge library of just historical scholarship
that somewhere between moving from Arizona to California and
getting divorced, I lost a lot of my books because they just
didn't make it on the journey with me.
But. But yeah so I know that you got

(56:11):
some stuff to go do today and sowe we don't have to keep going
too long but is there anything that you would like to say like
about your journey or just kind of end things here final words I
mean I that's that's really good.

(56:33):
I mean, I I I think when I was in the belief, I did have a lot
of inner turmoil and but I didn't realize it.
You know, I was happy as far as I knew and at peace and and all
of that. But in this worldview, man,

(56:53):
everything makes so much more sense.
It's so clear, and it could be even better because now your
Peace of Mind is not based on lies, but it's based on reality.
And now you can take control over your life.
And that's I feel like a believer would say Oh well

(57:13):
you're being your own God. But I think that's it's a way to
empower yourself to to live the life if we have one life here,
to live the life that you can stand behind that you can be
proud of. Because if if we do die and

(57:34):
that's the end. How sad would it be if you lived
your life according to somebody else's rules and wasted that
time that you could have been really exploring all the beauty
that there is in this world. And when we think about heaven
we imagine you know garden and love and beautiful relationships

(57:56):
being reunited with your loved ones.
But you have that now here like enjoy and now you the the heaven
you imagine is are the aspects you can have now in this life
when you're living a a reality based life.
You know, you you said somethingand I kind of want to echo it,

(58:19):
like glossing over the difficulties in life, so.
You know, probably one of the most difficult parts of my life
was going through divorce with my ex.
Somebody said something to me that if I was in the faith
community, would have said it comes more from the military.
But they said embrace the suck. You go through the worst point

(58:39):
of your life and instead of be giving like a fantasy reality,
it's like, no, it sucks. You got to go through it,
working through it, you know, mindfulness going through like
you know. Taking care of my mental health,
my life choices, I feel like by embracing the suck, I feel like
I'm a happier, better, healthierperson.

(59:01):
Better quality relationships. I mean, I got to the other side.
You don't live in the suck but there wasn't a fantasy role play
game where it was like, you know, have faith in Jesus.
You know this happy go looky where you're just you're playing
dress up. Fake it till you make it or
faith it till you make it, whatever.

(59:24):
But I find more quality because you know we deal with the the
you don't hide this difficult, you just go through it and then
the other side you've learned tobecome a better person.
So just to echo things you said is on the other side of this
more realistic experience. Yeah, things aren't easy or
perfect. Yeah, you're more likely to ask

(59:46):
for help too. Like you're not having this
mental health issues cuz you're sinning or God's not favoring
you right now. Maybe you need help.
Maybe you need counseling. Maybe you need medication like
you're inhibiting your progress by staying in a in a lie.
Yeah, that's what I'm calling fantasy, imagination.

(01:00:08):
Role play. You know, they're playing dress
up. Yeah, you know, but but yeah, so
yeah, I enjoy the interview is definitely a quality
conversation. And so where can everybody find
you? And like, what are you guys
working on right now? Yeah, so our podcast is on

(01:00:29):
YouTube, YouTube channel, Apostate of Mind.
So Apostate of Mind and our next.
We've have a lot of ideas for different episodes, but I think
right now we're probably going to be exploring different myths
and the similarities. In the Bible, we just did this
episode about the Documentary Hypothesis, digging deep and

(01:00:50):
into some of the contradictions in the Tana.
And then we also have a show called Belief Battles on
Tuesday, where believers or theists can call in and share
why they believe in God or challenge our disbelief.

(01:01:12):
And so that's on Tuesdays at 7:30 as if you can call in in
the show, is that on the radio or is that online?
It's online OK yeah, the the Internet makes it a lot easier
to do this stuff and get it out there.
Yes, thank you so much. You're a great interviewer and I

(01:01:34):
enjoyed hearing about your storyas well.
All right, well, thank you. I appreciate this.
And look forward to interviewingyour husband and you enjoy the
rest of your day. You too.
Thank you.