In this podcast episode, David LeBlanc interviews Jeramiah, exploring his journey of questioning faith that began with doubts about Jehovah's Witness teachings. Jeramiah shares his experience with Assemblies of God and Bible college, expressing frustration with theological focus and lack of critical examination. The conversation delves into Jeramiah's exposure to different religious traditions and his involvement with a Messianic synagogue.
The narrative unfolds with conflicts within the Messianic movement, leading to a pivotal moment with Dr. Raymond Gannon that triggers Jeramiah's departure from Messianic Judaism. The episode highlights the contradictions and manipulation tactics within these movements and Jeramiah's eventual exploration of authentic Jewish spaces.
Jeramiah discusses his conversion to Judaism within the Conservative movement, emphasizing the spiritual and eclectic nature of his experience. The conversation also touches on the impact of his journey on family dynamics and the challenges of navigating mixed religious backgrounds post-divorce.
The episode concludes with Jeramiah's reflections on critical scholarship, his appreciation for the intellectual tradition within the Conservative movement, and the ongoing role of Judaism in his life.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
Welcome to Pulling the Threads podcast.
Thank you for tuning into the second part of this two-part
series where David LeBlanc interviews me.
You can learn more about my story so TuneIn for this and
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(00:29):
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feedback and comments about thisafter viewing this episode.
You know, looking at things within the.
Of credit. Yeah, so, so you.
So you're you're pressing forward, so you chose, you
already mentioned that part of your decision was because of
(00:51):
your dad and just the fact that he didn't want to pay for your
school and that's probably a bigfactor, but.
That aside, you know, let's put that aside.
You chose from a secular, professional educational track.
You went towards a religious one.
But you've already explained howyou you feel like you need to
(01:15):
fix something, right? You feel like there's something
you need to get closure and you need to have, you need to
overcome. Some of what you've been through
and some of what you're feeling and you feel like this is a path
where you're going to find a sense of wholeness and
satisfaction and that if you canjust pursue the knowledge right
(01:37):
that that you, you know that you're you're a critical
thinker. You're probably at this point in
your life and your young 20s, you're probably not giving
yourself enough credit for beinga critical thinking.
You probably just feel like why am I always at odds with people
with these questions I have but yet?
You you're pressing because you feel like at the end of this
process you're going to feel peace, wholeness, and some sense
(02:00):
of closure to the pain you've experienced.
And you feel like that this pathis a better path for you than
that professional path that maybe doesn't have that element
to it. Even though it might be more
financially prosperous, it's notgoing to fit that deeper need
that you have. And so I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
projecting here a little bit andif and if you're if I'm off a
(02:22):
little bit, please correct me. But I feel like I really
resonate with what you're talking about because I feel
like I had the same journey. And is this this drive that we
have right, that we just feel like we have to know like
there's something that there that needs to be uncovered.
And if we can keep looking at it, we're going to find it and
it's going to answer the question that's the deepest
(02:43):
question in our heart. And then we're going to feel at
peace and so. We already started this
interview where you feel very comfortable with where you're at
right now and you've had to go through a lot to get there.
But this is a really important point in your life where you're
in your young 20s and you're looking at going into ministry.
At this point, they're they're pushing you into this that
you're going to serve ultimatelyon the mission field and all
(03:06):
this other stuff. And even at this very juncture,
you're already, like, having issues with what they're trying
to teach you, yeah? And I overstate some of that or
is it would you say that that's accurate.
I mean yes. You know, thank I'm following
God by the information that I'vebeen led to believe pressing
(03:31):
forward with something. See back to like what I was
saying though like when I was a child and I would walk and clear
my head and kind of pray and process thing it.
Was simple, yeah, it was a simple thing, but it gave me
peace. And you know, later in life, you
know, similarly mindfulness and,you know, meditative practices
(03:52):
that come from like moosar and stuff have helped with the same
kind of thing. And I try to be very mindful to
be present in the moment and notworried about the future or the
past and whatnot. Very simple thing.
But I mean, it centers, it grounds you.
But I at the time, I was trying,yeah, trying to find peace,
(04:16):
trying to deal with why bad things happen to good people,
why all this stuff happened to me looking for a healing God.
But to be honest with you, the answers that I saw weren't in
religion or Christianity at all.I was diagnosed with PTSD from
(04:37):
the abuse that I experienced. And, you know, I had to start
taking, you know, medication andgoing to counseling and stuff
like that and starting to grapple with the mental health
issues. It was about that time because I
was at Bible college, you know, having emotional difficulties
with roommates that had their own personal trauma that they
(04:59):
kind of let out on people. And so, you know, yeah, I'm not
going to get too off in the weeds on that one.
No. No, no, I understand.
I I apologize if I. Kind of derailed you a little
bit, but I just felt it was a really important point of your
journey, you know, where you were at emotionally at that
time. Yeah, I I was vulnerable for
(05:22):
sure. And, you know, looking for, I
mean, looking for peace, lookingfor happiness, looking for
healing, wanting to be a good person who who gives good to
this world versus, you know, harm, trying to be
conscientious. But really at that point is
where I started taking my mentalhealth seriously and, you know,
(05:47):
years of counseling to work through all the trauma to the
point where, you know, I feel like I'm, I'm able to to help
people and it's probably why I have a more balanced view of
things and, you know, compassionfor others, all the stuff I've
been through. I mean, if you're aware of your
own pain, how can you not be considered other people in
(06:08):
difficult times, you know? Yeah, that's like we talked
about earlier pain brings empathy.
So, so from there, so you're in Bible college and I and again I
I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you here.
I'm just trying to help you bring forth some some really
relevant stuff for the audience.So at some point you ended up in
the in the in the mission field,right from this experience.
(06:32):
So yeah, immediately afterwards I did like a A2 month mission
trip. I was, I was involved.
I got involved with the young adult ministry and the same as a
God. And I was leading a small group
and then I was doing some mission work and stuff here and
there. You know I'm I'm trying to think
(06:54):
somewhere in there. I I met my my ex kind of in that
that time frame there and then II started to get into in
Christian rap music at at that time also was that.
OK, I said. So you you met your wife through
summons of God? No.
I met my wife through a friend who I was training for a tough
(07:19):
man championship. Who it?
Oh, OK, he was. She was a coworker of his.
Oh, OK. Well, I I just assumed.
Yeah, OK. But yeah, I know.
So I didn't actually meet her through the religious thing, but
her her mom was strong Southern Baptist.
(07:39):
I think they went to Oakland Bible fellowship or something
like that. But yeah, so I mean, I was
involved in lay ministry. I hadn't got.
Yeah, I didn't go into fulltime ministry.
I had ethical questions and concerns about the Ministry.
(08:01):
From what I seen behind the scenes, the business of looking
at it as a spiritual endeavor, the business of it, a lot of it
just didn't rub right with me. So I never committed to the
fulltime ministry. But yeah, was that.
(08:23):
So you had potential opportunities, but you just were
unsettled about it. Yeah.
And I wasn't so convinced of thedogmatic theological statements
and the views. And you know, I still, when I,
when I preached was very to knock very Hebrew scriptures
(08:44):
oriented like a majority of everything I said.
And and and for a while there, it was definitely affected by
the revival stuff that was goingon where they had an emphasis on
the Tabernacle, on the festivalsand stuff like that from a
totally Christian Jesus is everything perspective.
So given it's it's not where it ended up but everything that I
(09:07):
did kind of had a flavor of thisthat's a knock.
The Hebrew to it. So I hadn't fully went messianic
yet. When I was in Bible or Bible
college, I had went to like a couple messianic, you know
things here and there. But yeah, so I get, you know,
meet my wife, we get engaged. I have this idea in my head.
(09:34):
It's like, I want to raise my kids Jewish.
And I was just thinking. When do you think that idea just
started to come up in your mind?I don't know.
It's interesting because it cameto, it did come to my mind and
it was just, I want to raise my kids Jewish at some.
Point You just had this idea that, well, OK, so part of it is
(09:55):
this, part of it is this. I wanted to give my kids a
culture and a tradition being raised Jehovah's Witness where
you don't have birthdays and holidays and stuff like that.
I want to give my kids a cultureand tradition that's meaningful,
that they have memories together.
Because when you don't do thingsto with family together for the
holidays or like Thanksgiving orany of that kind of stuff,
(10:17):
because the devil had something to do with people getting
together and enjoying themselves.
Don't understand. You know how the devil wants
families not to connect with each other and bond.
It would be a bad thing, yeah. The devils in families bonding.
I wanted to give my kids a tradition and a culture, and
(10:38):
it's the one that made sense to me.
It's the one I had the least problems with, you know?
And so I'm like, this is what I want to give my kids.
I have a lot less questions about this than I have about
other stuff. But.
And and that was the thought. And then I'm like, well, and you
know, trying to get her there. We ended up settling on a
(11:02):
Messianic synagogue. This is a lot easier.
I had started. We had started couples therapy
at a covenant Church in Carrollton, TX.
You have children at this point?No, no.
This was premarriage. Because, like, my marriage is
what brought me to Messianic Judaism.
Getting married because we we had a Messianic Jewish wedding,
(11:25):
which was a compromise and felt weird, but it did feel a bit
appropriatory. Like it wasn't.
I had questions but you know in the so we started out at
Covenant Church and the the discipleship for the for
premieres it was very controlling very I don't know
(11:48):
intrusive. It didn't feel appropriate.
And then I was like all right, we need to do something
different and that's when we gotinvolved with Baruca Sham, the
Messianic Synagogue there and itwas one of those Torah observant
Messianic synagogues. I'm.
Familiar with some people that are part of it, Yeah.
I I've had relations with peoplethat were part of that
synagogue. They were very, you know, the
(12:09):
Jews, the Tory portions. Gentiles have a different place.
They can't necessarily be the you know, they did have a
associate Gentile rabbi, but he didn't.
Do you know, he never he would not take on the role that that
you know like Jews play. So it was there was like a
second class citizenship thing to it that was, yeah, it wasn't
(12:33):
clear because it's not like in aJewish synagogue where, you
know, Gentiles can come. You're either Jew or not Jew.
But if you want to become a Jew like you, you could convert.
I mean that you could be a Noahide.
It's the it's a clear, very simple process.
It was very convoluted. I'm already at a place that for
(12:53):
me, the Tanak was the foundation, the New Testament
supposed to be laid upon. And if anything is to happen,
like Christians should give, getback to that foundation is where
my mind was as I'm in it. There was just a lot of
questions, but in the beginning it wasn't.
(13:15):
It was a strange place to be. I did get to learn some of the
Jewish traditions and you know, like the Shema and beyafta.
I don't know, you know, like thethe beyafta after the Shema,
like you Start learning some of the liturgy and stuff and so
that was good exposure. It wasn't a full synagogue
(13:35):
though. It was right.
And I started going to like the JCC there and stuff sometimes
and. That's true.
Let me ask you a question because it's different.
I'm very, very, very familiar with the Messianic Jewish
movement, and there are some Messianic Jewish synagogues that
openly discourage conversion to Judaism.
(13:56):
Because they don't want to lose their congregants.
Because they know if you start going to Jewish, surely you're
probably going to leave Jesus, you're probably going to
convert. That's really their fear.
But but they also emphasize thatyou mentioned this word
convoluted. There's a real real tension
between people that came up through the Hebrew roots
movement and embrace the one lawposition versus groups that
(14:19):
acknowledge the distinction between Jews and non Jews.
And the obligations to tour thateach group has according to that
so so the Barukashem would they have fallen within the one law
concept or would they have been more of the distinction between
Jews and non Jews? Well the distinction between
(14:40):
Jews and non Jews. Right.
So they didn't expect you as a non Jew to be fully tour
observant, but they were not be there this right.
Right. I'm only, I'm only saying that
for the sake of the audience whodoesn't understand what we're
talking about. Yeah, they kind of skewed it.
They they kind of discouraged itactually, right.
They didn't offer a conversion for Gentiles who felt like the
(15:04):
Torah was for them. So it was kind of, it was weird
because I felt like the Torah was for me and I wanted to
participate in a full Torah service.
It was not a full Torah service.It was there was Torah elements,
but it was basically a church service with Torah elements.
But the messages were still veryfull of Jesus, A New Testament
(15:29):
and Galatians this and if you. What was that?
What did the statement affirm? The Trinity, I think they were
MJAA, messianic, Jewish Allianceof America or whatever that one
was the MJAA. Yeah, the MJAA doesn't affirm
the Trinity. Yeah, Yeah.
So they have. A tortured relationship with it.
But they do affirm it. And then the reason, the reason
(15:52):
they affirm it primarily is theydon't.
They don't lose their, their Baptist funding.
Yeah, you know what, I don't. I think they're MJAA or UMJC,
one of those two, but. Either way, JC Yeah, UMJC is
definitely Trinitarian. Yeah, that.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
I mean, it basically was a church that met on Saturday and
did some Jewish stuff, but I appreciated, you know, the the
(16:20):
traditional Jewish portions. What was the makeup would you
say of of and this is my last question as you go on here and
this is just for the sake of theaudience again.
But what would you say the makeup percentage wise was a
Baruka sham? The congregation you're part of
that you get married in between Jews and non Jews.
Like how many percentage of Jewsis versus non Jews?
(16:42):
Actual Jews? Yeah, I'd say at least 80%
gentiles. I don't even know if it was 20%
Jews right? About 5 Jews in a congregation
of a few 100. And they were probably in the
mixed marriages, right? Yes, yes, correct.
Mixed marriages. Yes, right.
(17:02):
OK. I'm only bringing that forth so
that we don't leave the audiencein the dark as to the kind of
environment that you were in. But go ahead.
Yeah. So holacically I would now
question the status of some of the Jews.
But I don't know, like, yeah, nobody who is truly observant of
(17:26):
Judaism, maybe unaffiliated Jewswho came to Jesus who had it
that were related, married to a Christian and wanted to have a
Jewish Christian experience for their significant other would be
my read, I guess. But nobody who is just, like
(17:47):
deeply authentically Jewish, maybe culturally Jewish, but
wanted to have a Christian version of, I mean like a I mean
a Jewish version of Christianity.
So then about this time, my wife, through her work, decides
to move to California. We end up in Santa Maria, CA,
(18:10):
and we are involved in a small messianic group there for about
two years. And then Doctor Raymond Gannon,
who was part of the Jewish VoiceMinistries, was looking to start
a branch of King's Seminary in Phoenix, AZ.
(18:32):
And I forget what I was at some messianic conference.
And he, you know, he's talking to everybody.
And I distinctly remember being talked to by him and invited to
Phoenix to get involved in the startup of this messianic
yeshiva. So they called it.
(18:52):
I question that status now, but,you know, let's just give Jewish
names to a Christian Bible college.
But so yeah, I, I, we, my familymoved to Phoenix to get involved
in the The King's Seminary Jewish Voice ministry.
Again, I always like, kept running into like contradictions
(19:17):
within the stuff that was being presented.
So I never full on became I did ministry here and there and
missionary work. I never became like the head
pastor of anything within that. At that time, though, I was
working with the Assemblies of God and I did start kind of the
paperwork process to become ordained with this.
(19:37):
And as a God, I had completed all my hours and this, that and
the other and you know, but. We should mention, we should
mention as an aside, that a hugeportion of the messianic Jewish
movement comes out of Assembliesof God.
Assemblies of God, as a denomination, has always been at
least mildly supportive. Have these Ebraic elements, the
(19:59):
blowing of the shofar and all these different things.
I've always kind of embraced that.
And then you also have another whole element that comes out of
the Southern Baptist movement. Yes, that was the other, I was
gonna say assemblies in SouthernBaptist, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so. Yeah so so the and I should also
mention that the while I'm talking and and I'm interrupted
you the the Jewish voice so so. One of the things, and you don't
(20:27):
have to address this now, but maybe as you continue to tell
you a story, we can discuss thisa little bit.
One of the things that I found shocking.
For instance, I I was enrolled in King's University.
I was an online student from theTexas campus under Doctor David
Rudolph and had some correspondence with him.
And of course he wrote that book.
(20:50):
I forget the title of it, but hewrote a basically a Pall within
Judaism book. And anyways, I ended up getting
pushed out because I was non Trinitarian by them.
So I I used to argue with peoplein in the group chat in the
class about I used to argue about the the bogusness of the
(21:12):
Trinity and and so finally one of my professors is like, you do
realize that King's University embraces the cardinal doctrines
of the evangelical world, including the Trinity.
And I said, well, that's kind ofa.
I remember saying that that's really kind of a of a non
starter for me. How can you claim to be teaching
a a a return to the Jewish rootsof the faith and yet you're
(21:35):
embracing A doctrine that didn'texist in the church until the
4th, 5th century And that that was like it it stonewalled me
like it ended my education. And so you mentioned kings and
that's why I that's why I mentioned that, because I'm
like, wow, Yeah, like, like theyso Jewish voice when I was a
Christian. I saw organizations like Jewish
(21:57):
Voice and One for Israel and Jews for Jesus as doing a
positive work of trying to reachJews and after converting to
Judaism. I I detested these organizations
because of their subversive types of missionary work that
they did. Anyways, I didn't mean to jump
ahead of you, but no, no, you'regood.
(22:18):
Well, yes, Subversive. It was my interactions with
Doctor Gannon. See, you know, I already had
like a suspicion of the ministryfrom everything I saw before
Bible college. The intentional control tactics,
the manipulation, the the the, the, the willful knowledge that
you're intentionally manipulating people.
(22:42):
I was aware of that kind of stuff.
I naively thought maybe Messianic Judaism is somehow
different, but there's all the infighting between the different
groups and whatnot. But to see that they're really
just functionally churches and that everybody that ran them
were just pastors and there wasn't anything different
(23:04):
between the Messianic synagoguesand churches.
They were churches with different names.
I mean, the semantics were different, but it was the same.
But really, like the the pivotalmoment for me was sitting in the
office of Doctor Raymond Gannon at Jewish Voices Ministry, a
Gentile who has no problem eating, you know, a bacon
(23:27):
cheeseburger, talking about dressing up and wearing teat
seats in a Jewish community to try to convert, he said.
To look more Orthodox than the Orthodox, to convert Jews.
And I'm just sitting here like, wow, remind you, you know, I my
(23:48):
studies, you know, personal studies never ended.
I'm reading the book Messianic Judaism by Rabbi Carroll or
Shapiro, which refers to Gentiles dressing up as
crossdressing. And I'm like, well, he just said
it. I mean, you know, again, it's
does a thing hold up against itself?
And you're hearing outside criticism and you're like, well,
(24:09):
you just made, you made the caselike, wow, okay, at that point,
I was done with Messianic Judaism.
I had started studying Hebrew atthe Galle.
You know you already. Have your foot in as an
authentic face at this point. Well, just.
I didn't mean you. You were about to say it, but so
at the time of your meeting withDr. Ganon, you already have
(24:30):
yourself somewhat within actual authentic Jewish space.
I mean, I was, yeah. I mean, I I would, you know, I
think I had visited, but yeah. Well, well, yeah.
No, I had for a while when we were in Santa Maria before
moving to Phoenix, we went to Passover, Abad, we went to
Shabbat at Abad. It was, it was, you know, it was
(24:50):
a wonderful, very small environment.
You know, they make the big mealand very festive and all the
blessing and all into the environment.
I I really like the, you know, the Shabbat meals.
And so yeah we had we had been to Habad.
So yes, and then but even when Iwas started with the messianic
movement and and Dallas went to the JCC for various holidays and
(25:17):
festivals. So I mean I had I I didn't have
anything in my mind against crossing lines into just like
straight Jewish space. I would go into Jewish spaces
and just, you know, it's cool. They don't.
But you're. But you're personally, you're
not going there hoping to convert them to Messianic
Judaism. You're just going there to
experience Jewish life, right? Yeah, just Passover, Shabbat,
(25:39):
you know, these things that messy annex are talking about.
I'm just going there like okay. Well, how do they do it, you
know, and I want to do it the way they do it.
And two, like see how it is without Jesus, you know?
And then it's like then you start to see the inappropriate
and misplacedness of Jesus beingput in this stuff.
That's a whole other one. But, you know.
(26:00):
Yeah. So I mean, yes, I had.
I had. But yeah, even before I went to
Bible college. You know what?
I well, I went to a Passover before I went to Bible college.
A Jewish Passover or an Evangelical Passover?
I'm trying to well, it was. It was a synagogue meeting in a
(26:23):
church because they lost their building.
Oh, wow. OK, so it was an interesting
space and it probably I would I probably, I probably felt safe
because it was within a church building.
But they had their our own kodash and everything.
And no, it was Jewish. So yeah, I mean, I I guess I
didn't track all my like it. Couldn't have been orthodox.
(26:44):
That had to have been. No, I think it was Reform.
I think it. Was Reform would have no problem
with that. The Orthodox would never do
that. Oh yeah, there were there.
There's a woman rabbi. And so yeah.
OK. I got that right.
Yeah. Was it OK?
And. And for being Christian, reform
is a very comfortable space. You know it's not too.
Yeah, they don't care. They don't care, you know so.
(27:08):
If you don't realize that, right, isn't that true?
You and I like we we've experienced this, but we we
talked to Christians and and a lot of people like that have
interests in in exploring Judaism.
They don't realize that if you go to like a Reform or even a
many cases a Conservative shul they don't care if you're
Christian. You don't have to hide it from
them like they don't. They really don't care.
(27:29):
They're happy to have you there and visit and you know it's
really not an issue. It's only it's an issue.
The Messianic, Jewish congregations, because they're
trying to get you to be part of their space.
The the Jewish like, yeah, you can come, come celebrate Shabbat
with us. You know, we'll have a cash
together. They don't care.
They could care less. Yeah, I was.
I was a gentile messianic and I went to Habad Passover in
(27:52):
Shabbat's and no one. No.
They'll welcome you anytime. Yeah, yeah.
It's just like nothing. It was, yeah.
As long as you don't try to proselytize, yeah.
Right. So, so yeah, I mean, so yeah,
about that time I started, you know, I was going to the the
Callel in Phoenix to learn Hebrew and I I took a course on
(28:14):
Musar at the Jewish learning. Yeah, you and I discussed that
last time you talked to me. Yeah.
And I was getting into like Hebrew Jewish spirituality.
And I got, I guess I settled on the Conservative movement as
where I wanted to convert. We were going to the Shoal, New
(28:35):
Shoal in Scottsdale and it's a Rabbi Shlomo Carlbok style
minions, so very spiritual davening.
Yeah, it was very, you know it was very, very, I liked it a
lot. Also the the Jewish Catalog,
Rabbi Strassfeld, So he came outof kind of a reconstruction
(28:59):
Jewish experience. So very eclectic, kind of pick
your traditions, figure out how to make it work for you, make
Judaism your own kind of thing. So it was a very, it was very
eclectic, very spiritual environment.
So we started going to new Shoal.
(29:20):
I eventually approached the rabbi about going through
conversion. That whole congregation went
through a Mossar thing and it itwas, it was a it was kind of a
Mossar thing within the Conservative movement.
So it was more mindfulness, meditative, but definitely, you
know, group meetings and you're like individual the Havaruda and
(29:44):
stuff like that. It was, it was a very spiritual
experience. I liked it a lot.
It helped me connect with it. It was definitely a good
transition. I like the the the davening of
the the Carl box style Minion itwas it was a good it was a good
experience and then you know we're we're going through the
conversion. You know part of what got us
(30:06):
this is you. You this is you and your wife,
right? Going through just together and
my and my son. OK, you're trying to born at
this point. We didn't.
My son was born in 2007, OK? You know, so he was a little kid
when we were in California and he was, you know, one of the
deciding factors for my ex was my son said he wanted to go
(30:27):
through conversion. And so she was like, that helped
my ex decide. She wanted to do it too.
And so we decided to do it as a family.
And you know, so you know, we were, we, we took the intern of
Jewish courses at A at a Conservative Shoal.
(30:48):
New shul is an independent shul,but the rabbi is Conservative.
So our, you know, our our conversion was conservative, but
it was independent Minion. But he was from the Jewish
Theological Seminary. But the shul itself was
unaffiliated. Yes.
It was unaffiliated, yeah. And.
And and he was influenced more like by the Reconstruction
(31:09):
Judaism. So it was a little more
eclectic, a little more open. It was.
It was very interesting. It was very spiritual, but very
open, you know, as into. I was converted also by.
Yeah, I was converted by someonefrom the same persuasion.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, I mean it was, it was interesting.
I mean it and it worked. And then after our conversion,
(31:31):
they, you know, we, I got to finally have my Jewish wedding.
Well, one of the things like. So in the conversion, one of my
favorite memories was going to the mikvah with my son to
complete our our, you know, conversion.
Being able to do that with my son is just it's it's a moment
always cherishes beautiful. That must have been amazing.
(31:52):
Yeah, it was, you know, and to have that with my son is is a
beautiful thing. And then, you know, we we ended
up getting married and having a Jewish wedding that I wanted in
the first place. It will save our marriage, that
is, save our marriage, because it ended up not working out.
But I got to have the Jewish wedding I wanted to have and you
know, we're raising our kids Jewish.
And you know, that was, that waswhat I had set out wanting to
(32:16):
do. And I was finally in a space
though, where my mental health was a lot better and I was no
longer holding on to like Jesus as you know, anything.
So you know. Let's let's talk about that for
a minute. I know we've gone kind of long
here, but I feel like this is a really, really healthy
(32:38):
interview. So hopefully those who are
watching this, maybe you can break it up into two parts or
something but what what point because I I don't know that you
can even pinpoint it, but maybe you can.
So at some point during your journey now obviously you've
you've articulated very clearly how you always were attracted
(32:59):
more to the knock and always to the Hebreck perspective.
It sounds like through the Brownsville thing you got
exposed kind of the to the festivals, I know.
When I was when I was associatedwith FFOZ, there was a number of
individuals and of course I was friends with all those guys and
I don't really have much relationship with them.
Now. I'm still friends with Tony,
(33:19):
Toby, Janicki. But there was always this
conversation about the differentdoorways that people enter the
messianic space. One was through study of the
text study of the Torah. One was through.
The charismatic expression of trying to recapture the you
know, the shofar and then this and and there was another door
(33:41):
that was through the festival. So people that started studying
the biblical festivals and the and the biblical feasts.
Many people entered the messianic world through that
door. But at one point for you now
you're you're speaking in glowing terms about your
authentic Jewish conversion. You're and I can.
I can relate with this person ina very emotional level.
(34:02):
The the highlight of my Jewish experience was the immersion in
the kosher mikva at the conversion ceremony.
That that was a deeply moving, emotional experience for my wife
and I, and I don't care what anybody thinks about it.
It it was very real and it was something that was very personal
(34:23):
and people can dismiss it if they want.
I don't care. It doesn't matter because it
meant a lot to me and I'm sure you feel the same way.
But there's a process right to where you get to that point.
Like how? How did you get from the
messianic mindset where you werelike you got Jesus in your back
pocket, but you're studying thisa break perspective to where you
(34:45):
were comfortable. Which so many, many, many people
are not comfortable doing This many people are afraid to let go
of Jesus. But where?
Where? What point?
Did you have in your journey where you were comfortable just
kind of letting the Jesus concept just kind of float away
on the water and just embrace your Jewish identity?
(35:05):
How did that happen for you? Well, I guess laying the
scholarly, foundational work, you know, so I had I had built a
vast library. Vast library.
Oh my gosh, it wasn't everythingabout Second Temple Judaism.
(35:30):
You know, the parting of the ways, 1st century Judaism, the
ancient Near East. I've done a lot of studying just
in intense library. I mean, you know, I had
Christian resources, messianic resources.
I started really picking up a lot of the historical critical,
(35:52):
textual, critical stuff. You know Bart Airman, James
Tabor. I am Mcabee.
Paul the. Man I love being you know I was
I really was getting to and I had I had bought the entire like
the anti Nicene fathers and you know just a lot of these early
(36:16):
texts that we don't the one they're not considered Canon by
most Christian organizations butyou know like this whole look at
things and test it against itself kind of thing.
So I was, you know, the the diversity of Gospels in the new,
in the in the first, second, third, 4th century, more so than
what we have, the echoes of the early Jewish Christianity.
(36:42):
What I came to like. And and this was before I left,
like I don't know what point I came to this end.
But I was reading the epistle ofPeter to James and its
reception. It talks about the receiving the
traditions that came from the 70elders and following the
traditions according to Moses and the initiation into the
(37:03):
tradition of Moses. And then it goes on to explain
mikva immersion and water and a communal meal.
And then in James's response, he's saying we only give this to
men of the circumcision. And so you have to be
circumcised. You have to go to amygva.
And I'm like whatever this is talking about is Jewish, it's
(37:28):
not Christian. They were converting people to
Judaism. So that I mean at some point and
I'm like I don't remember at what point I, when I was in the
messianic movement, I I because I had a blog, paradox Parables,
that at one point got up to 250,000 views a year.
I used to have a a messianic sitter app for doing liturgy on
(37:54):
an Android and iPhone and stuff like that.
I was in communication with, yeah.
I had the same thing. Wow.
Yeah. Yeah.
I had been in communication withFFO Z about theirs.
So they're in its production andstuff.
Did they ever come out with it? Cuz it was like years.
Yeah, they they came. Out.
Yeah. I was talking to Aaron, Evie at
(38:14):
a conference one time, and I'm like, you guys ever going to
come out with it? He just about hit his face.
He was like, it's a hard thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember I got early versions of that before it was fully out
too. Yeah, yeah, I, you know yeah.
I was at a place that there was this Jewish foundational thing
(38:35):
before Christianity and my my involvement when it because I
when I was in Phoenix we were part of like a tour club thing
was you know like Christians need to know about the Jewish
roots. But really the a Christian
coming from a Christian it's it's a different thing.
It's not actually what it was. So yeah, in the process of this,
(38:56):
getting back to the original thing, I finally get to a place
where I just don't. Based on everything I read, I
don't believe the New Testament based on my experience from when
I was a child. All the questions I had, Bible
college that I had messy. And like the New Testament never
(39:19):
became a thing that didn't have holes.
It always had holes for me. So it came to a place where I
just, I didn't believe it to be a sacred text anymore and I
didn't believe it to be telling me the truth.
(39:40):
And I I just, I didn't believe in Jesus.
So and that was before my conversion for sure.
Yo, I figured that. I just, you know, I appreciate
you taking the time to kind of walk us through that, because
it's always right, isn't it? And I'm sure you experienced
this as well as I do. People are always shocked
because you're taught as a Christian, especially as an
(40:02):
evangelical, not so much as a Catholic, but you're taught as
an evangelical Christian. That once you, you know the the
old verse, right, I think it's in Thessalonian, is that once
you've tasted of the fruits of the Lord and then fall away,
that maybe it's in Peter that there, that it's like you're
damned like, like, like, like once you've tasted it and walk
(40:23):
away like that that's a really bad place to be in.
And people are always shocked when you tell them that.
Oh, I used to be like I tell people.
I used to be a pastor. I had to.
I had I tell the story in my book, which I'm going to send
you a copy of it by the way, because you need to read it
because it's so much like your story.
I was at a grocery store during the COVID event because my
(40:43):
business slowed down because of all the lockdown.
So I took a job where my wife worked and I was just stocking
grocery shelves at Publix grocery store.
And I I was, I had recently converted, so I was like fresh
out of my conversion. So I was working, I had my Z
seat, I had a kippa and constantly having conversations
(41:05):
in the store with people like, oh wow, he he's a Jew, right?
Because he identifies as a Jew. And I had this guy that came up
to me and he was this radical dude, right?
He was like this older guy, had long white white hair, he had a
cowboy hat, long white beard. And and anyways, he walks up
behind me, I'm standing on a ladder stocking shells in the
(41:25):
top row and he's like Shalom. And I just kind of turned and I
said, Shalom. And he's like, and he's smiling
at me. And he's like, he's like, you're
Jewish. I'm like, yeah, he says, do you
know your Messiah? Because I'm in the Bible belt,
right. And And I knew where he was
(41:45):
going and I just smiled at him. I didn't really want to have a
scene. I didn't want to get into a
thing with him, you know? But I just smiled at him.
I'm like, yeah, I just nodded. And I said, I just waited for
him to talk, really. And and he was like, he's like,
do you know Jesus? And I said, I don't believe in
Jesus. And so I I was giving him an
(42:06):
out. Like here I am.
I'm openly Jewish. Like the polite thing to do is
to not press the issue. But this guy was not, you know,
he was his eyes spinning in his head.
Right. And he's just like, well, that's
because you haven't met him yet.And so I'm thinking to myself,
and I described this in the book, I'm like, do I go there?
Do I really tell him, but do I just let him think whatever he
(42:28):
wants to think and keep doing myjob?
Because I'm on the clock, right.I'm feeling like this sense of
obligation, like I'm being paid to work.
I'm not being paid to talk aboutthis stuff.
And and there's people around, you know, and and so and he's
just he's. But he's being so insistent.
And I said to him, I said, I said I just told you I don't
believe in Jesus. I said I actually used to be a
(42:49):
pastor. I was born again at one time
when I was a young man. And he just literally, it was
like somebody shot him in the chest.
He just like backed up and he gets this look of horror in his
face and he's like, how could you experience that and turn
your back? He says, oh, I'll pray for you.
(43:11):
I'll pray for you. And he walks away.
And he wouldn't talk to me anymore.
And I was like, I was just trying to be friendly.
And it's like when you experience that and you realize
the brainwashing, right? And then you get involved in the
Jewish community and it's so different than that.
It's so you don't have that level of like this, like you
mentioned, this dichotomy of heaven and hell and good and
(43:33):
evil. It's just so.
Anyways, I didn't mean to take the floor, but but I just really
relate with what you're talking about.
Like like you you go through this experience and and now you
feel of course unfortunately youlost your marriage but but now
how would you describe today? Like, is your son still
interested in Jewish studies, orhas he has it waned?
(43:56):
Or like, how does that work for you guys?
Kind of joke. Divorces are complicated.
And yeah, right. Judaism is still a part of our
family life. You know, my kids are here.
We do Shabbat, we do the festivals.
(44:17):
They were here for Rosh Hashanah.
They're going to be here for Simcott Torah on Friday.
So Judaism is still part of our life.
You know, I have a teenage son, so maybe it had more meaning to
him when he was younger than it does now.
Sure, that's normal, but. Yeah, but you know, my son, my
(44:41):
son, you know, his values are still influenced by, you know?
The Torah and Judaism and being Jewish, being Jewish is part of
his life. He has to go back to a family
that's mixed. You know, his mom's become non
observant and her extended family are hardcore Christian,
(45:03):
so they've had to make the choice of being Jewish and
defining themselves as such. But I mean it's still meaningful
to us. But I know my my 16 year old
daughter was shocked one day when she was still in.
She's doing online school now. She's going to be going to trade
(45:24):
school. But when she was in high school
still I think when she was a freshman, they did a study of
the Holocaust in her in her school.
And we had converted like maybe a year before that.
And and her teacher at one pointwhen they were asking people
(45:46):
where they were coming from, they were trying to be very
inclusive. You know, this is the Bible
belt. Most people here are Christians
evangelicals and. But we have a mixed community
here. We have a lot of foreigners
here. We have a lot of Buddhists.
We have a lot of Muslims. We have.
It's a very, it's a very egalitarian culture here now
because of all the growth. And and anyway, she was asked to
her perspective as a young womanwho was Jewish on the Holocaust.
(46:10):
And she, she was mortified. Like, she came home, like so
stressed because all of a suddenit hit home for her, Oh my gosh,
I'm Jewish. Like, this is something I have
to come to terms with because she wasn't raised like that, you
know. So there's a lot of paradigm
shifts you go through. But yeah, so I can totally
(46:32):
understand what you're saying. And like, my, my, my, my
daughters now, who went through that with us?
My oldest daughter is agnostic now.
My soninlaw who was married to her that they were going to
convert but then decided not to.I have an oldest son who's a
pastor Calvinist pastor up in Vermont.
(46:53):
He refuses to read my book but we have a great relationship
thankfully and his wife does notwant us to influence her
children. However, and then we have my 21
year old daughter who is non religious completely.
She has no interest in any religion at all.
My 29 year old son wants nothingto do with religion and my 16
(47:13):
year old now, she's very thankful that she went through
the Jewish thing with us becauseit gave her tremendous
perspective and open mind. And that's the thing that I'm
most thankful for from our conversion was that it allowed
my children to unplug from a dogmatic mindset and be able to
look at. And that's one of the reasons,
like you and I both share our affinity for the conservative
(47:35):
movement because there's a lot more intellectual diversity
that's allowed. You're allowed to explore
critical scholarship. You're not considered a heretic.
And that's kind of where I was going with this as we started
around the bend here. And I don't want to cut you
short in any way, but I'd like you to talk about how you became
(47:56):
attracted more. Of course you converted to the
conservative movement as you've already described.
But what is it about the intellectual tradition that
attracts you? And also as a as a as an aside
to that? My question for you would be,
how has your study of critical scholarship related to the TO
not impacted your faith in any kind of tangible ways?
(48:22):
Very good one. So I very much appreciate
critical scholarship and the fact that critical scholarship
doesn't challenge leaders in theconservative movement.
In the way that some others do. I mean my my rabbi has openly
(48:42):
talked about the document hypothesis and when certain
parts of the homage were written, the cultural context of
it. You know, of the the different
sources. This like certain portions
written during the Elohis to theYahwest, the deuterist, or you
(49:03):
know, the priestly sources, whatever I mean.
It's nice to be in a space wherethese things are openly talked
about and actually used as the method of explaining this thing
versus this is exactly how it came down from Mount Sinai.
So, you know, I like the intellectual rigor where we can
(49:25):
embrace critical scholarship that this is a cultural document
built within the ancient Near Eastern culture.
And the Sumerian and Acadian Miss may have played into the
building of this folkloric hero.I would say that, yes, there's
probably a historical Abraham and Moses, but these are
(49:50):
folkloric heroes. I mean the it's nice to be
within a tradition where we can say, hey, this is probably
folkloric heroes. But this is also the Jewish
tradition and Jewish culture, and it's best understood within
the Jewish tradition and culture.
When you take the Tanak and you look at it with through the lens
(50:13):
of the document hypothesis, well, the Kumash specifically.
And then you look at the cultural underpinnings and what
may have made the text, and you have people who are willing to
look at it and say our faith isn't diminished because.
Humans created this document andit came from a people in a
tradition. The fact that I mean I, I love
(50:37):
the story of Abraham like this story, not the biblical one but
Abraham and Earl of Caldea basically, you know it's on the
trading routes up there in you know would be Iraq and you know
the the Tanak is a central area.Susan Susan.
(50:57):
Renity Treaty. Between a vassal and and his
client state. And so the Tanak is the vassal,
the king is Hashem, the AlmightyGod.
Well, the contracts that they wrote in the trade route, you
know Acadian, they they have these vases and they would write
(51:18):
on top of the vases and clay thecuneiform tablets, the little
check marks. And the first like writing we
have is Acadian. Which are these covenants?
The contracts between, you know,shipping and receiving it of,
you know, products from one place to another, they enter
into a covenant or a contract. Well this idea of covenant is
(51:39):
the foundation for what becomes the covenant.
You know that we that is handed down to Moses, right?
We have the Epic of Gilgamesh and the legends of summer in
this stuff and they have similarflood and creation stories.
Now all of this stuff feeds. Into and I like being in a
tradition where we can say, hey,these people probably existed,
(52:03):
but what we have in the Torah islegendary and mythological but
based on actual people. I like the the study of the
ancient Near East and I like andI even like.
The benefit of the Talmud is giving us the cultural
understanding of what this text meant and the debates about it.
But I look at it totally secular.
(52:26):
I don't look at. You know when it's funny when I
am hypercritical of the New Testament and people are like,
well put your scripture and I'm like, I subscribe to the
document hypothesis. I don't drive to the OR
something like, right, right, they.
Create this straw man argument like, oh, you're a Jew and
(52:47):
you're having this debate. So you know, by the way, you
know, God screwed up with its knock as well.
And you're like. It's a human document, yes.
You're not Rabbi. Congress, are we having because
you want to have the conversation that you would have
if you asked me a question or the one where you assume things?
I I, I do believe in God and I believe that the Torah and the
(53:11):
Tanak does represent the Jewish tradition and the Jewish people,
and it's best understood that way.
And the Western world has been changed by the ethics of the
Tanak. So it's a very valuable
document. But do I believe that the
hamash, and when I keep saying hamash, the tour of the first
five books is the literal words of God handed to Moses on Mount
(53:34):
Sinai? No.
But I believe that there is something back to what I said at
the beginning about spiritualityand and what I believe that
there's the divine spark and that's what say Elahem and the
Cleep hope, the husk that coversthings.
I feel that Judaism gets closestto right, but I don't feel like.
Anybody is perfect and always right in my view and summation.
(53:59):
For me it's the closest in what works for me and my family, but
at the same time I'm I'm non dogmatic about that point, like
it's okay if people disagree andfind.
Morality and whatever. Yeah, go ahead.
So let's wrap things up. This has been a really enjoyable
time. I've really enjoyed having the
(54:20):
opportunity to get to know you better and hopefully that the
audience feels the same. And you have this project that
you're doing, pulling the threadpodcast.
You have it on Spotify, you haveit on.
I think you're still on YouTube,right?
Or you're off YouTube now. No, I'm on YouTube and
everywhere you can podcast. I mean, they listen to podcast.
(54:42):
It's it's everywhere, yeah. So what have you been, Have you
been enjoying this process and what are you hoping to to do
with it, and what are you hopingto accomplish with it?
I have been enjoying the processand like I was getting messages
(55:02):
from a guy today on Messenger about how it's been beneficial
for his journey going through something similar like you and
myself and. Like the entire messianic
congregation that converted to Judaism that I had on recently.
Yeah, that was awesome. Yeah.
So, I mean, you know, I'm finding it beneficial, yes.
(55:24):
And the conversations, the information and some of the
interesting people that I'm going to have on the future up
here. I look forward to having
conversations with people who their works have influenced,
like why I do what I do. Yeah, I'm hoping to introduce
you to a few people too. Yeah.
So I I'm enjoying it. I my publication schedule could
(55:51):
probably be more consistently, but you know, Swain work, being
a father and all the other things I have, you know, I do
have a bunch of stuff planned out and yeah, I look forward to
keeping going with this and continuing to predict.
I was kind of doing a great job.Find it benefit.
Benefit from Yeah, I I think your articles are excellent.
(56:14):
I think you really put a lot of effort into it.
I think they're well thought out.
And I encourage people to. I've tried to share some of the
things that you've put out. I haven't shared as much as
probably I should. But you know, I take some risks
owning a business here in the Bible Belt when I put stuff out
there that even that criticizes mainstream Christianity
sometimes gets some blowback. But at this point I'm 55 years
(56:37):
old and you know if people are going to judge me based on that,
then I don't really need it in my life.
So I'm not really worried about it.
But the I think you're doing a fantastic job and a fantastic
service. I used to be in this space.
I used to have a very active YouTube channel.
I had about 8-9 hundred subscribers at one point which
is very modest but but it was I started getting some blowback
(56:59):
from some of the the nastier elements of the atheistic crowd
that that just, I don't know, very very very temperamental and
I just didn't want to deal with the drama And I'm I'm busy
building my business and and trying to take care of my family
and what you're doing I think isgreat and I just want to
(57:19):
encourage anyone that's watchingthis to just continue learning.
I'm sure you you you you feel the same.
Any any last thoughts you have before we sign up?
No, thanks for doing this. And yeah, I hope that this was
beneficial. It's kind of fun doing it in
reverse and being, yeah, yeah. So hopefully we'll have more
(57:43):
conversations. And like I said when we get off
the air, I have a couple things I want to share with you.
But if you have time. But but I've had fun doing this
and I'm glad we finally connected.
All right. Yeah, this sounds good.
And yeah, we can do this again sometime.
And yeah, thanks for tuning in and make sure you guys follow on
the YouTube. Join the Facebook group.
(58:03):
Follow it Jesus the Jew within judaism.com and make sure you
guys plug in and like and subscribe.
Welcome to Pulling the Threads podcast.
Thank you for tuning into the second part of this two-part
series where David LeBlanc interviews me.
You can learn more about my story so TuneIn for this and
make sure you like and subscribeon YouTube, Follow us on
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at Jesus the Jew within judaism.com.
(00:29):
Make sure you subscribe for all the updates and new upcoming
shows. And make sure you post your
feedback and comments about thisafter viewing this episode.
You know, looking at things within the.
Of credit. Yeah, so, so you.
So you're you're pressing forward, so you chose, you
already mentioned that part of your decision was because of
(00:51):
your dad and just the fact that he didn't want to pay for your
school and that's probably a bigfactor, but.
That aside, you know, let's put that aside.
You chose from a secular, professional educational track.
You went towards a religious one.
But you've already explained howyou you feel like you need to
(01:15):
fix something, right? You feel like there's something
you need to get closure and you need to have, you need to
overcome. Some of what you've been through
and some of what you're feeling and you feel like this is a path
where you're going to find a sense of wholeness and
satisfaction and that if you canjust pursue the knowledge right
(01:37):
that that you, you know that you're you're a critical
thinker. You're probably at this point in
your life and your young 20s, you're probably not giving
yourself enough credit for beinga critical thinking.
You probably just feel like why am I always at odds with people
with these questions I have but yet?
You you're pressing because you feel like at the end of this
process you're going to feel peace, wholeness, and some sense
(02:00):
of closure to the pain you've experienced.
And you feel like that this pathis a better path for you than
that professional path that maybe doesn't have that element
to it. Even though it might be more
financially prosperous, it's notgoing to fit that deeper need
that you have. And so I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
projecting here a little bit andif and if you're if I'm off a
(02:22):
little bit, please correct me. But I feel like I really
resonate with what you're talking about because I feel
like I had the same journey. And is this this drive that we
have right, that we just feel like we have to know like
there's something that there that needs to be uncovered.
And if we can keep looking at it, we're going to find it and
it's going to answer the question that's the deepest
(02:43):
question in our heart. And then we're going to feel at
peace and so. We already started this
interview where you feel very comfortable with where you're at
right now and you've had to go through a lot to get there.
But this is a really important point in your life where you're
in your young 20s and you're looking at going into ministry.
At this point, they're they're pushing you into this that
you're going to serve ultimatelyon the mission field and all
(03:06):
this other stuff. And even at this very juncture,
you're already, like, having issues with what they're trying
to teach you, yeah? And I overstate some of that or
is it would you say that that's accurate.
I mean yes. You know, thank I'm following
God by the information that I'vebeen led to believe pressing
(03:31):
forward with something. See back to like what I was
saying though like when I was a child and I would walk and clear
my head and kind of pray and process thing it.
Was simple, yeah, it was a simple thing, but it gave me
peace. And you know, later in life, you
know, similarly mindfulness and,you know, meditative practices
(03:52):
that come from like moosar and stuff have helped with the same
kind of thing. And I try to be very mindful to
be present in the moment and notworried about the future or the
past and whatnot. Very simple thing.
But I mean, it centers, it grounds you.
But I at the time, I was trying,yeah, trying to find peace,
(04:16):
trying to deal with why bad things happen to good people,
why all this stuff happened to me looking for a healing God.
But to be honest with you, the answers that I saw weren't in
religion or Christianity at all.I was diagnosed with PTSD from
(04:37):
the abuse that I experienced. And, you know, I had to start
taking, you know, medication andgoing to counseling and stuff
like that and starting to grapple with the mental health
issues. It was about that time because I
was at Bible college, you know, having emotional difficulties
with roommates that had their own personal trauma that they
(04:59):
kind of let out on people. And so, you know, yeah, I'm not
going to get too off in the weeds on that one.
No. No, no, I understand.
I I apologize if I. Kind of derailed you a little
bit, but I just felt it was a really important point of your
journey, you know, where you were at emotionally at that
time. Yeah, I I was vulnerable for
(05:22):
sure. And, you know, looking for, I
mean, looking for peace, lookingfor happiness, looking for
healing, wanting to be a good person who who gives good to
this world versus, you know, harm, trying to be
conscientious. But really at that point is
where I started taking my mentalhealth seriously and, you know,
(05:47):
years of counseling to work through all the trauma to the
point where, you know, I feel like I'm, I'm able to to help
people and it's probably why I have a more balanced view of
things and, you know, compassionfor others, all the stuff I've
been through. I mean, if you're aware of your
own pain, how can you not be considered other people in
(06:08):
difficult times, you know? Yeah, that's like we talked
about earlier pain brings empathy.
So, so from there, so you're in Bible college and I and again I
I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you here.
I'm just trying to help you bring forth some some really
relevant stuff for the audience.So at some point you ended up in
the in the in the mission field,right from this experience.
(06:32):
So yeah, immediately afterwards I did like a A2 month mission
trip. I was, I was involved.
I got involved with the young adult ministry and the same as a
God. And I was leading a small group
and then I was doing some mission work and stuff here and
there. You know I'm I'm trying to think
(06:54):
somewhere in there. I I met my my ex kind of in that
that time frame there and then II started to get into in
Christian rap music at at that time also was that.
OK, I said. So you you met your wife through
summons of God? No.
I met my wife through a friend who I was training for a tough
(07:19):
man championship. Who it?
Oh, OK, he was. She was a coworker of his.
Oh, OK. Well, I I just assumed.
Yeah, OK. But yeah, I know.
So I didn't actually meet her through the religious thing, but
her her mom was strong Southern Baptist.
(07:39):
I think they went to Oakland Bible fellowship or something
like that. But yeah, so I mean, I was
involved in lay ministry. I hadn't got.
Yeah, I didn't go into fulltime ministry.
I had ethical questions and concerns about the Ministry.
(08:01):
From what I seen behind the scenes, the business of looking
at it as a spiritual endeavor, the business of it, a lot of it
just didn't rub right with me. So I never committed to the
fulltime ministry. But yeah, was that.
(08:23):
So you had potential opportunities, but you just were
unsettled about it. Yeah.
And I wasn't so convinced of thedogmatic theological statements
and the views. And you know, I still, when I,
when I preached was very to knock very Hebrew scriptures
(08:44):
oriented like a majority of everything I said.
And and and for a while there, it was definitely affected by
the revival stuff that was goingon where they had an emphasis on
the Tabernacle, on the festivalsand stuff like that from a
totally Christian Jesus is everything perspective.
So given it's it's not where it ended up but everything that I
(09:07):
did kind of had a flavor of thisthat's a knock.
The Hebrew to it. So I hadn't fully went messianic
yet. When I was in Bible or Bible
college, I had went to like a couple messianic, you know
things here and there. But yeah, so I get, you know,
meet my wife, we get engaged. I have this idea in my head.
(09:34):
It's like, I want to raise my kids Jewish.
And I was just thinking. When do you think that idea just
started to come up in your mind?I don't know.
It's interesting because it cameto, it did come to my mind and
it was just, I want to raise my kids Jewish at some.
Point You just had this idea that, well, OK, so part of it is
(09:55):
this, part of it is this. I wanted to give my kids a
culture and a tradition being raised Jehovah's Witness where
you don't have birthdays and holidays and stuff like that.
I want to give my kids a cultureand tradition that's meaningful,
that they have memories together.
Because when you don't do thingsto with family together for the
holidays or like Thanksgiving orany of that kind of stuff,
(10:17):
because the devil had something to do with people getting
together and enjoying themselves.
Don't understand. You know how the devil wants
families not to connect with each other and bond.
It would be a bad thing, yeah. The devils in families bonding.
I wanted to give my kids a tradition and a culture, and
(10:38):
it's the one that made sense to me.
It's the one I had the least problems with, you know?
And so I'm like, this is what I want to give my kids.
I have a lot less questions about this than I have about
other stuff. But.
And and that was the thought. And then I'm like, well, and you
know, trying to get her there. We ended up settling on a
(11:02):
Messianic synagogue. This is a lot easier.
I had started. We had started couples therapy
at a covenant Church in Carrollton, TX.
You have children at this point?No, no.
This was premarriage. Because, like, my marriage is
what brought me to Messianic Judaism.
Getting married because we we had a Messianic Jewish wedding,
(11:25):
which was a compromise and felt weird, but it did feel a bit
appropriatory. Like it wasn't.
I had questions but you know in the so we started out at
Covenant Church and the the discipleship for the for
premieres it was very controlling very I don't know
(11:48):
intrusive. It didn't feel appropriate.
And then I was like all right, we need to do something
different and that's when we gotinvolved with Baruca Sham, the
Messianic Synagogue there and itwas one of those Torah observant
Messianic synagogues. I'm.
Familiar with some people that are part of it, Yeah.
I I've had relations with peoplethat were part of that
synagogue. They were very, you know, the
(12:09):
Jews, the Tory portions. Gentiles have a different place.
They can't necessarily be the you know, they did have a
associate Gentile rabbi, but he didn't.
Do you know, he never he would not take on the role that that
you know like Jews play. So it was there was like a
second class citizenship thing to it that was, yeah, it wasn't
(12:33):
clear because it's not like in aJewish synagogue where, you
know, Gentiles can come. You're either Jew or not Jew.
But if you want to become a Jew like you, you could convert.
I mean that you could be a Noahide.
It's the it's a clear, very simple process.
It was very convoluted. I'm already at a place that for
(12:53):
me, the Tanak was the foundation, the New Testament
supposed to be laid upon. And if anything is to happen,
like Christians should give, getback to that foundation is where
my mind was as I'm in it. There was just a lot of
questions, but in the beginning it wasn't.
(13:15):
It was a strange place to be. I did get to learn some of the
Jewish traditions and you know, like the Shema and beyafta.
I don't know, you know, like thethe beyafta after the Shema,
like you Start learning some of the liturgy and stuff and so
that was good exposure. It wasn't a full synagogue
(13:35):
though. It was right.
And I started going to like the JCC there and stuff sometimes
and. That's true.
Let me ask you a question because it's different.
I'm very, very, very familiar with the Messianic Jewish
movement, and there are some Messianic Jewish synagogues that
openly discourage conversion to Judaism.
(13:56):
Because they don't want to lose their congregants.
Because they know if you start going to Jewish, surely you're
probably going to leave Jesus, you're probably going to
convert. That's really their fear.
But but they also emphasize thatyou mentioned this word
convoluted. There's a real real tension
between people that came up through the Hebrew roots
movement and embrace the one lawposition versus groups that
(14:19):
acknowledge the distinction between Jews and non Jews.
And the obligations to tour thateach group has according to that
so so the Barukashem would they have fallen within the one law
concept or would they have been more of the distinction between
Jews and non Jews? Well the distinction between
(14:40):
Jews and non Jews. Right.
So they didn't expect you as a non Jew to be fully tour
observant, but they were not be there this right.
Right. I'm only, I'm only saying that
for the sake of the audience whodoesn't understand what we're
talking about. Yeah, they kind of skewed it.
They they kind of discouraged itactually, right.
They didn't offer a conversion for Gentiles who felt like the
(15:04):
Torah was for them. So it was kind of, it was weird
because I felt like the Torah was for me and I wanted to
participate in a full Torah service.
It was not a full Torah service.It was there was Torah elements,
but it was basically a church service with Torah elements.
But the messages were still veryfull of Jesus, A New Testament
(15:29):
and Galatians this and if you. What was that?
What did the statement affirm? The Trinity, I think they were
MJAA, messianic, Jewish Allianceof America or whatever that one
was the MJAA. Yeah, the MJAA doesn't affirm
the Trinity. Yeah, Yeah.
So they have. A tortured relationship with it.
But they do affirm it. And then the reason, the reason
(15:52):
they affirm it primarily is theydon't.
They don't lose their, their Baptist funding.
Yeah, you know what, I don't. I think they're MJAA or UMJC,
one of those two, but. Either way, JC Yeah, UMJC is
definitely Trinitarian. Yeah, that.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
I mean, it basically was a church that met on Saturday and
did some Jewish stuff, but I appreciated, you know, the the
(16:20):
traditional Jewish portions. What was the makeup would you
say of of and this is my last question as you go on here and
this is just for the sake of theaudience again.
But what would you say the makeup percentage wise was a
Baruka sham? The congregation you're part of
that you get married in between Jews and non Jews.
Like how many percentage of Jewsis versus non Jews?
(16:42):
Actual Jews? Yeah, I'd say at least 80%
gentiles. I don't even know if it was 20%
Jews right? About 5 Jews in a congregation
of a few 100. And they were probably in the
mixed marriages, right? Yes, yes, correct.
Mixed marriages. Yes, right.
(17:02):
OK. I'm only bringing that forth so
that we don't leave the audiencein the dark as to the kind of
environment that you were in. But go ahead.
Yeah. So holacically I would now
question the status of some of the Jews.
But I don't know, like, yeah, nobody who is truly observant of
(17:26):
Judaism, maybe unaffiliated Jewswho came to Jesus who had it
that were related, married to a Christian and wanted to have a
Jewish Christian experience for their significant other would be
my read, I guess. But nobody who is just, like
(17:47):
deeply authentically Jewish, maybe culturally Jewish, but
wanted to have a Christian version of, I mean like a I mean
a Jewish version of Christianity.
So then about this time, my wife, through her work, decides
to move to California. We end up in Santa Maria, CA,
(18:10):
and we are involved in a small messianic group there for about
two years. And then Doctor Raymond Gannon,
who was part of the Jewish VoiceMinistries, was looking to start
a branch of King's Seminary in Phoenix, AZ.
(18:32):
And I forget what I was at some messianic conference.
And he, you know, he's talking to everybody.
And I distinctly remember being talked to by him and invited to
Phoenix to get involved in the startup of this messianic
yeshiva. So they called it.
(18:52):
I question that status now, but,you know, let's just give Jewish
names to a Christian Bible college.
But so yeah, I, I, we, my familymoved to Phoenix to get involved
in the The King's Seminary Jewish Voice ministry.
Again, I always like, kept running into like contradictions
(19:17):
within the stuff that was being presented.
So I never full on became I did ministry here and there and
missionary work. I never became like the head
pastor of anything within that. At that time, though, I was
working with the Assemblies of God and I did start kind of the
paperwork process to become ordained with this.
(19:37):
And as a God, I had completed all my hours and this, that and
the other and you know, but. We should mention, we should
mention as an aside, that a hugeportion of the messianic Jewish
movement comes out of Assembliesof God.
Assemblies of God, as a denomination, has always been at
least mildly supportive. Have these Ebraic elements, the
(19:59):
blowing of the shofar and all these different things.
I've always kind of embraced that.
And then you also have another whole element that comes out of
the Southern Baptist movement. Yes, that was the other, I was
gonna say assemblies in SouthernBaptist, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so. Yeah so so the and I should also
mention that the while I'm talking and and I'm interrupted
you the the Jewish voice so so. One of the things, and you don't
(20:27):
have to address this now, but maybe as you continue to tell
you a story, we can discuss thisa little bit.
One of the things that I found shocking.
For instance, I I was enrolled in King's University.
I was an online student from theTexas campus under Doctor David
Rudolph and had some correspondence with him.
And of course he wrote that book.
(20:50):
I forget the title of it, but hewrote a basically a Pall within
Judaism book. And anyways, I ended up getting
pushed out because I was non Trinitarian by them.
So I I used to argue with peoplein in the group chat in the
class about I used to argue about the the bogusness of the
(21:12):
Trinity and and so finally one of my professors is like, you do
realize that King's University embraces the cardinal doctrines
of the evangelical world, including the Trinity.
And I said, well, that's kind ofa.
I remember saying that that's really kind of a of a non
starter for me. How can you claim to be teaching
a a a return to the Jewish rootsof the faith and yet you're
(21:35):
embracing A doctrine that didn'texist in the church until the
4th, 5th century And that that was like it it stonewalled me
like it ended my education. And so you mentioned kings and
that's why I that's why I mentioned that, because I'm
like, wow, Yeah, like, like theyso Jewish voice when I was a
Christian. I saw organizations like Jewish
(21:57):
Voice and One for Israel and Jews for Jesus as doing a
positive work of trying to reachJews and after converting to
Judaism. I I detested these organizations
because of their subversive types of missionary work that
they did. Anyways, I didn't mean to jump
ahead of you, but no, no, you'regood.
(22:18):
Well, yes, Subversive. It was my interactions with
Doctor Gannon. See, you know, I already had
like a suspicion of the ministryfrom everything I saw before
Bible college. The intentional control tactics,
the manipulation, the the the, the, the willful knowledge that
you're intentionally manipulating people.
(22:42):
I was aware of that kind of stuff.
I naively thought maybe Messianic Judaism is somehow
different, but there's all the infighting between the different
groups and whatnot. But to see that they're really
just functionally churches and that everybody that ran them
were just pastors and there wasn't anything different
(23:04):
between the Messianic synagoguesand churches.
They were churches with different names.
I mean, the semantics were different, but it was the same.
But really, like the the pivotalmoment for me was sitting in the
office of Doctor Raymond Gannon at Jewish Voices Ministry, a
Gentile who has no problem eating, you know, a bacon
(23:27):
cheeseburger, talking about dressing up and wearing teat
seats in a Jewish community to try to convert, he said.
To look more Orthodox than the Orthodox, to convert Jews.
And I'm just sitting here like, wow, remind you, you know, I my
(23:48):
studies, you know, personal studies never ended.
I'm reading the book Messianic Judaism by Rabbi Carroll or
Shapiro, which refers to Gentiles dressing up as
crossdressing. And I'm like, well, he just said
it. I mean, you know, again, it's
does a thing hold up against itself?
And you're hearing outside criticism and you're like, well,
(24:09):
you just made, you made the caselike, wow, okay, at that point,
I was done with Messianic Judaism.
I had started studying Hebrew atthe Galle.
You know you already. Have your foot in as an
authentic face at this point. Well, just.
I didn't mean you. You were about to say it, but so
at the time of your meeting withDr. Ganon, you already have
(24:30):
yourself somewhat within actual authentic Jewish space.
I mean, I was, yeah. I mean, I I would, you know, I
think I had visited, but yeah. Well, well, yeah.
No, I had for a while when we were in Santa Maria before
moving to Phoenix, we went to Passover, Abad, we went to
Shabbat at Abad. It was, it was, you know, it was
(24:50):
a wonderful, very small environment.
You know, they make the big mealand very festive and all the
blessing and all into the environment.
I I really like the, you know, the Shabbat meals.
And so yeah we had we had been to Habad.
So yes, and then but even when Iwas started with the messianic
movement and and Dallas went to the JCC for various holidays and
(25:17):
festivals. So I mean I had I I didn't have
anything in my mind against crossing lines into just like
straight Jewish space. I would go into Jewish spaces
and just, you know, it's cool. They don't.
But you're. But you're personally, you're
not going there hoping to convert them to Messianic
Judaism. You're just going there to
experience Jewish life, right? Yeah, just Passover, Shabbat,
(25:39):
you know, these things that messy annex are talking about.
I'm just going there like okay. Well, how do they do it, you
know, and I want to do it the way they do it.
And two, like see how it is without Jesus, you know?
And then it's like then you start to see the inappropriate
and misplacedness of Jesus beingput in this stuff.
That's a whole other one. But, you know.
(26:00):
Yeah. So I mean, yes, I had.
I had. But yeah, even before I went to
Bible college. You know what?
I well, I went to a Passover before I went to Bible college.
A Jewish Passover or an Evangelical Passover?
I'm trying to well, it was. It was a synagogue meeting in a
(26:23):
church because they lost their building.
Oh, wow. OK, so it was an interesting
space and it probably I would I probably, I probably felt safe
because it was within a church building.
But they had their our own kodash and everything.
And no, it was Jewish. So yeah, I mean, I I guess I
didn't track all my like it. Couldn't have been orthodox.
(26:44):
That had to have been. No, I think it was Reform.
I think it. Was Reform would have no problem
with that. The Orthodox would never do
that. Oh yeah, there were there.
There's a woman rabbi. And so yeah.
OK. I got that right.
Yeah. Was it OK?
And. And for being Christian, reform
is a very comfortable space. You know it's not too.
Yeah, they don't care. They don't care, you know so.
(27:08):
If you don't realize that, right, isn't that true?
You and I like we we've experienced this, but we we
talked to Christians and and a lot of people like that have
interests in in exploring Judaism.
They don't realize that if you go to like a Reform or even a
many cases a Conservative shul they don't care if you're
Christian. You don't have to hide it from
them like they don't. They really don't care.
(27:29):
They're happy to have you there and visit and you know it's
really not an issue. It's only it's an issue.
The Messianic, Jewish congregations, because they're
trying to get you to be part of their space.
The the Jewish like, yeah, you can come, come celebrate Shabbat
with us. You know, we'll have a cash
together. They don't care.
They could care less. Yeah, I was.
I was a gentile messianic and I went to Habad Passover in
(27:52):
Shabbat's and no one. No.
They'll welcome you anytime. Yeah, yeah.
It's just like nothing. It was, yeah.
As long as you don't try to proselytize, yeah.
Right. So, so yeah, I mean, so yeah,
about that time I started, you know, I was going to the the
Callel in Phoenix to learn Hebrew and I I took a course on
(28:14):
Musar at the Jewish learning. Yeah, you and I discussed that
last time you talked to me. Yeah.
And I was getting into like Hebrew Jewish spirituality.
And I got, I guess I settled on the Conservative movement as
where I wanted to convert. We were going to the Shoal, New
(28:35):
Shoal in Scottsdale and it's a Rabbi Shlomo Carlbok style
minions, so very spiritual davening.
Yeah, it was very, you know it was very, very, I liked it a
lot. Also the the Jewish Catalog,
Rabbi Strassfeld, So he came outof kind of a reconstruction
(28:59):
Jewish experience. So very eclectic, kind of pick
your traditions, figure out how to make it work for you, make
Judaism your own kind of thing. So it was a very, it was very
eclectic, very spiritual environment.
So we started going to new Shoal.
(29:20):
I eventually approached the rabbi about going through
conversion. That whole congregation went
through a Mossar thing and it itwas, it was a it was kind of a
Mossar thing within the Conservative movement.
So it was more mindfulness, meditative, but definitely, you
know, group meetings and you're like individual the Havaruda and
(29:44):
stuff like that. It was, it was a very spiritual
experience. I liked it a lot.
It helped me connect with it. It was definitely a good
transition. I like the the the davening of
the the Carl box style Minion itwas it was a good it was a good
experience and then you know we're we're going through the
conversion. You know part of what got us
(30:06):
this is you. You this is you and your wife,
right? Going through just together and
my and my son. OK, you're trying to born at
this point. We didn't.
My son was born in 2007, OK? You know, so he was a little kid
when we were in California and he was, you know, one of the
deciding factors for my ex was my son said he wanted to go
(30:27):
through conversion. And so she was like, that helped
my ex decide. She wanted to do it too.
And so we decided to do it as a family.
And you know, so you know, we were, we, we took the intern of
Jewish courses at A at a Conservative Shoal.
(30:48):
New shul is an independent shul,but the rabbi is Conservative.
So our, you know, our our conversion was conservative, but
it was independent Minion. But he was from the Jewish
Theological Seminary. But the shul itself was
unaffiliated. Yes.
It was unaffiliated, yeah. And.
And and he was influenced more like by the Reconstruction
(31:09):
Judaism. So it was a little more
eclectic, a little more open. It was.
It was very interesting. It was very spiritual, but very
open, you know, as into. I was converted also by.
Yeah, I was converted by someonefrom the same persuasion.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, I mean it was, it was interesting.
I mean it and it worked. And then after our conversion,
(31:31):
they, you know, we, I got to finally have my Jewish wedding.
Well, one of the things like. So in the conversion, one of my
favorite memories was going to the mikvah with my son to
complete our our, you know, conversion.
Being able to do that with my son is just it's it's a moment
always cherishes beautiful. That must have been amazing.
(31:52):
Yeah, it was, you know, and to have that with my son is is a
beautiful thing. And then, you know, we we ended
up getting married and having a Jewish wedding that I wanted in
the first place. It will save our marriage, that
is, save our marriage, because it ended up not working out.
But I got to have the Jewish wedding I wanted to have and you
know, we're raising our kids Jewish.
And you know, that was, that waswhat I had set out wanting to
(32:16):
do. And I was finally in a space
though, where my mental health was a lot better and I was no
longer holding on to like Jesus as you know, anything.
So you know. Let's let's talk about that for
a minute. I know we've gone kind of long
here, but I feel like this is a really, really healthy
(32:38):
interview. So hopefully those who are
watching this, maybe you can break it up into two parts or
something but what what point because I I don't know that you
can even pinpoint it, but maybe you can.
So at some point during your journey now obviously you've
you've articulated very clearly how you always were attracted
(32:59):
more to the knock and always to the Hebreck perspective.
It sounds like through the Brownsville thing you got
exposed kind of the to the festivals, I know.
When I was when I was associatedwith FFOZ, there was a number of
individuals and of course I was friends with all those guys and
I don't really have much relationship with them.
Now. I'm still friends with Tony,
(33:19):
Toby, Janicki. But there was always this
conversation about the differentdoorways that people enter the
messianic space. One was through study of the
text study of the Torah. One was through.
The charismatic expression of trying to recapture the you
know, the shofar and then this and and there was another door
(33:41):
that was through the festival. So people that started studying
the biblical festivals and the and the biblical feasts.
Many people entered the messianic world through that
door. But at one point for you now
you're you're speaking in glowing terms about your
authentic Jewish conversion. You're and I can.
I can relate with this person ina very emotional level.
(34:02):
The the highlight of my Jewish experience was the immersion in
the kosher mikva at the conversion ceremony.
That that was a deeply moving, emotional experience for my wife
and I, and I don't care what anybody thinks about it.
It it was very real and it was something that was very personal
(34:23):
and people can dismiss it if they want.
I don't care. It doesn't matter because it
meant a lot to me and I'm sure you feel the same way.
But there's a process right to where you get to that point.
Like how? How did you get from the
messianic mindset where you werelike you got Jesus in your back
pocket, but you're studying thisa break perspective to where you
(34:45):
were comfortable. Which so many, many, many people
are not comfortable doing This many people are afraid to let go
of Jesus. But where?
Where? What point?
Did you have in your journey where you were comfortable just
kind of letting the Jesus concept just kind of float away
on the water and just embrace your Jewish identity?
(35:05):
How did that happen for you? Well, I guess laying the
scholarly, foundational work, you know, so I had I had built a
vast library. Vast library.
Oh my gosh, it wasn't everythingabout Second Temple Judaism.
(35:30):
You know, the parting of the ways, 1st century Judaism, the
ancient Near East. I've done a lot of studying just
in intense library. I mean, you know, I had
Christian resources, messianic resources.
I started really picking up a lot of the historical critical,
(35:52):
textual, critical stuff. You know Bart Airman, James
Tabor. I am Mcabee.
Paul the. Man I love being you know I was
I really was getting to and I had I had bought the entire like
the anti Nicene fathers and you know just a lot of these early
(36:16):
texts that we don't the one they're not considered Canon by
most Christian organizations butyou know like this whole look at
things and test it against itself kind of thing.
So I was, you know, the the diversity of Gospels in the new,
in the in the first, second, third, 4th century, more so than
what we have, the echoes of the early Jewish Christianity.
(36:42):
What I came to like. And and this was before I left,
like I don't know what point I came to this end.
But I was reading the epistle ofPeter to James and its
reception. It talks about the receiving the
traditions that came from the 70elders and following the
traditions according to Moses and the initiation into the
(37:03):
tradition of Moses. And then it goes on to explain
mikva immersion and water and a communal meal.
And then in James's response, he's saying we only give this to
men of the circumcision. And so you have to be
circumcised. You have to go to amygva.
And I'm like whatever this is talking about is Jewish, it's
(37:28):
not Christian. They were converting people to
Judaism. So that I mean at some point and
I'm like I don't remember at what point I, when I was in the
messianic movement, I I because I had a blog, paradox Parables,
that at one point got up to 250,000 views a year.
I used to have a a messianic sitter app for doing liturgy on
(37:54):
an Android and iPhone and stuff like that.
I was in communication with, yeah.
I had the same thing. Wow.
Yeah. Yeah.
I had been in communication withFFO Z about theirs.
So they're in its production andstuff.
Did they ever come out with it? Cuz it was like years.
Yeah, they they came. Out.
Yeah. I was talking to Aaron, Evie at
(38:14):
a conference one time, and I'm like, you guys ever going to
come out with it? He just about hit his face.
He was like, it's a hard thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember I got early versions of that before it was fully out
too. Yeah, yeah, I, you know yeah.
I was at a place that there was this Jewish foundational thing
(38:35):
before Christianity and my my involvement when it because I
when I was in Phoenix we were part of like a tour club thing
was you know like Christians need to know about the Jewish
roots. But really the a Christian
coming from a Christian it's it's a different thing.
It's not actually what it was. So yeah, in the process of this,
(38:56):
getting back to the original thing, I finally get to a place
where I just don't. Based on everything I read, I
don't believe the New Testament based on my experience from when
I was a child. All the questions I had, Bible
college that I had messy. And like the New Testament never
(39:19):
became a thing that didn't have holes.
It always had holes for me. So it came to a place where I
just, I didn't believe it to be a sacred text anymore and I
didn't believe it to be telling me the truth.
(39:40):
And I I just, I didn't believe in Jesus.
So and that was before my conversion for sure.
Yo, I figured that. I just, you know, I appreciate
you taking the time to kind of walk us through that, because
it's always right, isn't it? And I'm sure you experienced
this as well as I do. People are always shocked
because you're taught as a Christian, especially as an
(40:02):
evangelical, not so much as a Catholic, but you're taught as
an evangelical Christian. That once you, you know the the
old verse, right, I think it's in Thessalonian, is that once
you've tasted of the fruits of the Lord and then fall away,
that maybe it's in Peter that there, that it's like you're
damned like, like, like, like once you've tasted it and walk
(40:23):
away like that that's a really bad place to be in.
And people are always shocked when you tell them that.
Oh, I used to be like I tell people.
I used to be a pastor. I had to.
I had I tell the story in my book, which I'm going to send
you a copy of it by the way, because you need to read it
because it's so much like your story.
I was at a grocery store during the COVID event because my
(40:43):
business slowed down because of all the lockdown.
So I took a job where my wife worked and I was just stocking
grocery shelves at Publix grocery store.
And I I was, I had recently converted, so I was like fresh
out of my conversion. So I was working, I had my Z
seat, I had a kippa and constantly having conversations
(41:05):
in the store with people like, oh wow, he he's a Jew, right?
Because he identifies as a Jew. And I had this guy that came up
to me and he was this radical dude, right?
He was like this older guy, had long white white hair, he had a
cowboy hat, long white beard. And and anyways, he walks up
behind me, I'm standing on a ladder stocking shells in the
(41:25):
top row and he's like Shalom. And I just kind of turned and I
said, Shalom. And he's like, and he's smiling
at me. And he's like, he's like, you're
Jewish. I'm like, yeah, he says, do you
know your Messiah? Because I'm in the Bible belt,
right. And And I knew where he was
(41:45):
going and I just smiled at him. I didn't really want to have a
scene. I didn't want to get into a
thing with him, you know? But I just smiled at him.
I'm like, yeah, I just nodded. And I said, I just waited for
him to talk, really. And and he was like, he's like,
do you know Jesus? And I said, I don't believe in
Jesus. And so I I was giving him an
(42:06):
out. Like here I am.
I'm openly Jewish. Like the polite thing to do is
to not press the issue. But this guy was not, you know,
he was his eyes spinning in his head.
Right. And he's just like, well, that's
because you haven't met him yet.And so I'm thinking to myself,
and I described this in the book, I'm like, do I go there?
Do I really tell him, but do I just let him think whatever he
(42:28):
wants to think and keep doing myjob?
Because I'm on the clock, right.I'm feeling like this sense of
obligation, like I'm being paid to work.
I'm not being paid to talk aboutthis stuff.
And and there's people around, you know, and and so and he's
just he's. But he's being so insistent.
And I said to him, I said, I said I just told you I don't
believe in Jesus. I said I actually used to be a
(42:49):
pastor. I was born again at one time
when I was a young man. And he just literally, it was
like somebody shot him in the chest.
He just like backed up and he gets this look of horror in his
face and he's like, how could you experience that and turn
your back? He says, oh, I'll pray for you.
(43:11):
I'll pray for you. And he walks away.
And he wouldn't talk to me anymore.
And I was like, I was just trying to be friendly.
And it's like when you experience that and you realize
the brainwashing, right? And then you get involved in the
Jewish community and it's so different than that.
It's so you don't have that level of like this, like you
mentioned, this dichotomy of heaven and hell and good and
(43:33):
evil. It's just so.
Anyways, I didn't mean to take the floor, but but I just really
relate with what you're talking about.
Like like you you go through this experience and and now you
feel of course unfortunately youlost your marriage but but now
how would you describe today? Like, is your son still
interested in Jewish studies, orhas he has it waned?
(43:56):
Or like, how does that work for you guys?
Kind of joke. Divorces are complicated.
And yeah, right. Judaism is still a part of our
family life. You know, my kids are here.
We do Shabbat, we do the festivals.
(44:17):
They were here for Rosh Hashanah.
They're going to be here for Simcott Torah on Friday.
So Judaism is still part of our life.
You know, I have a teenage son, so maybe it had more meaning to
him when he was younger than it does now.
Sure, that's normal, but. Yeah, but you know, my son, my
(44:41):
son, you know, his values are still influenced by, you know?
The Torah and Judaism and being Jewish, being Jewish is part of
his life. He has to go back to a family
that's mixed. You know, his mom's become non
observant and her extended family are hardcore Christian,
(45:03):
so they've had to make the choice of being Jewish and
defining themselves as such. But I mean it's still meaningful
to us. But I know my my 16 year old
daughter was shocked one day when she was still in.
She's doing online school now. She's going to be going to trade
(45:24):
school. But when she was in high school
still I think when she was a freshman, they did a study of
the Holocaust in her in her school.
And we had converted like maybe a year before that.
And and her teacher at one pointwhen they were asking people
(45:46):
where they were coming from, they were trying to be very
inclusive. You know, this is the Bible
belt. Most people here are Christians
evangelicals and. But we have a mixed community
here. We have a lot of foreigners
here. We have a lot of Buddhists.
We have a lot of Muslims. We have.
It's a very, it's a very egalitarian culture here now
because of all the growth. And and anyway, she was asked to
her perspective as a young womanwho was Jewish on the Holocaust.
(46:10):
And she, she was mortified. Like, she came home, like so
stressed because all of a suddenit hit home for her, Oh my gosh,
I'm Jewish. Like, this is something I have
to come to terms with because she wasn't raised like that, you
know. So there's a lot of paradigm
shifts you go through. But yeah, so I can totally
(46:32):
understand what you're saying. And like, my, my, my, my
daughters now, who went through that with us?
My oldest daughter is agnostic now.
My soninlaw who was married to her that they were going to
convert but then decided not to.I have an oldest son who's a
pastor Calvinist pastor up in Vermont.
(46:53):
He refuses to read my book but we have a great relationship
thankfully and his wife does notwant us to influence her
children. However, and then we have my 21
year old daughter who is non religious completely.
She has no interest in any religion at all.
My 29 year old son wants nothingto do with religion and my 16
(47:13):
year old now, she's very thankful that she went through
the Jewish thing with us becauseit gave her tremendous
perspective and open mind. And that's the thing that I'm
most thankful for from our conversion was that it allowed
my children to unplug from a dogmatic mindset and be able to
look at. And that's one of the reasons,
like you and I both share our affinity for the conservative
(47:35):
movement because there's a lot more intellectual diversity
that's allowed. You're allowed to explore
critical scholarship. You're not considered a heretic.
And that's kind of where I was going with this as we started
around the bend here. And I don't want to cut you
short in any way, but I'd like you to talk about how you became
(47:56):
attracted more. Of course you converted to the
conservative movement as you've already described.
But what is it about the intellectual tradition that
attracts you? And also as a as a as an aside
to that? My question for you would be,
how has your study of critical scholarship related to the TO
not impacted your faith in any kind of tangible ways?
(48:22):
Very good one. So I very much appreciate
critical scholarship and the fact that critical scholarship
doesn't challenge leaders in theconservative movement.
In the way that some others do. I mean my my rabbi has openly
(48:42):
talked about the document hypothesis and when certain
parts of the homage were written, the cultural context of
it. You know, of the the different
sources. This like certain portions
written during the Elohis to theYahwest, the deuterist, or you
(49:03):
know, the priestly sources, whatever I mean.
It's nice to be in a space wherethese things are openly talked
about and actually used as the method of explaining this thing
versus this is exactly how it came down from Mount Sinai.
So, you know, I like the intellectual rigor where we can
(49:25):
embrace critical scholarship that this is a cultural document
built within the ancient Near Eastern culture.
And the Sumerian and Acadian Miss may have played into the
building of this folkloric hero.I would say that, yes, there's
probably a historical Abraham and Moses, but these are
(49:50):
folkloric heroes. I mean the it's nice to be
within a tradition where we can say, hey, this is probably
folkloric heroes. But this is also the Jewish
tradition and Jewish culture, and it's best understood within
the Jewish tradition and culture.
When you take the Tanak and you look at it with through the lens
(50:13):
of the document hypothesis, well, the Kumash specifically.
And then you look at the cultural underpinnings and what
may have made the text, and you have people who are willing to
look at it and say our faith isn't diminished because.
Humans created this document andit came from a people in a
tradition. The fact that I mean I, I love
(50:37):
the story of Abraham like this story, not the biblical one but
Abraham and Earl of Caldea basically, you know it's on the
trading routes up there in you know would be Iraq and you know
the the Tanak is a central area.Susan Susan.
(50:57):
Renity Treaty. Between a vassal and and his
client state. And so the Tanak is the vassal,
the king is Hashem, the AlmightyGod.
Well, the contracts that they wrote in the trade route, you
know Acadian, they they have these vases and they would write
(51:18):
on top of the vases and clay thecuneiform tablets, the little
check marks. And the first like writing we
have is Acadian. Which are these covenants?
The contracts between, you know,shipping and receiving it of,
you know, products from one place to another, they enter
into a covenant or a contract. Well this idea of covenant is
(51:39):
the foundation for what becomes the covenant.
You know that we that is handed down to Moses, right?
We have the Epic of Gilgamesh and the legends of summer in
this stuff and they have similarflood and creation stories.
Now all of this stuff feeds. Into and I like being in a
tradition where we can say, hey,these people probably existed,
(52:03):
but what we have in the Torah islegendary and mythological but
based on actual people. I like the the study of the
ancient Near East and I like andI even like.
The benefit of the Talmud is giving us the cultural
understanding of what this text meant and the debates about it.
But I look at it totally secular.
(52:26):
I don't look at. You know when it's funny when I
am hypercritical of the New Testament and people are like,
well put your scripture and I'm like, I subscribe to the
document hypothesis. I don't drive to the OR
something like, right, right, they.
Create this straw man argument like, oh, you're a Jew and
(52:47):
you're having this debate. So you know, by the way, you
know, God screwed up with its knock as well.
And you're like. It's a human document, yes.
You're not Rabbi. Congress, are we having because
you want to have the conversation that you would have
if you asked me a question or the one where you assume things?
I I, I do believe in God and I believe that the Torah and the
(53:11):
Tanak does represent the Jewish tradition and the Jewish people,
and it's best understood that way.
And the Western world has been changed by the ethics of the
Tanak. So it's a very valuable
document. But do I believe that the
hamash, and when I keep saying hamash, the tour of the first
five books is the literal words of God handed to Moses on Mount
(53:34):
Sinai? No.
But I believe that there is something back to what I said at
the beginning about spiritualityand and what I believe that
there's the divine spark and that's what say Elahem and the
Cleep hope, the husk that coversthings.
I feel that Judaism gets closestto right, but I don't feel like.
Anybody is perfect and always right in my view and summation.
(53:59):
For me it's the closest in what works for me and my family, but
at the same time I'm I'm non dogmatic about that point, like
it's okay if people disagree andfind.
Morality and whatever. Yeah, go ahead.
So let's wrap things up. This has been a really enjoyable
time. I've really enjoyed having the
(54:20):
opportunity to get to know you better and hopefully that the
audience feels the same. And you have this project that
you're doing, pulling the threadpodcast.
You have it on Spotify, you haveit on.
I think you're still on YouTube,right?
Or you're off YouTube now. No, I'm on YouTube and
everywhere you can podcast. I mean, they listen to podcast.
(54:42):
It's it's everywhere, yeah. So what have you been, Have you
been enjoying this process and what are you hoping to to do
with it, and what are you hopingto accomplish with it?
I have been enjoying the processand like I was getting messages
(55:02):
from a guy today on Messenger about how it's been beneficial
for his journey going through something similar like you and
myself and. Like the entire messianic
congregation that converted to Judaism that I had on recently.
Yeah, that was awesome. Yeah.
So, I mean, you know, I'm finding it beneficial, yes.
(55:24):
And the conversations, the information and some of the
interesting people that I'm going to have on the future up
here. I look forward to having
conversations with people who their works have influenced,
like why I do what I do. Yeah, I'm hoping to introduce
you to a few people too. Yeah.
So I I'm enjoying it. I my publication schedule could
(55:51):
probably be more consistently, but you know, Swain work, being
a father and all the other things I have, you know, I do
have a bunch of stuff planned out and yeah, I look forward to
keeping going with this and continuing to predict.
I was kind of doing a great job.Find it benefit.
Benefit from Yeah, I I think your articles are excellent.
(56:14):
I think you really put a lot of effort into it.
I think they're well thought out.
And I encourage people to. I've tried to share some of the
things that you've put out. I haven't shared as much as
probably I should. But you know, I take some risks
owning a business here in the Bible Belt when I put stuff out
there that even that criticizes mainstream Christianity
sometimes gets some blowback. But at this point I'm 55 years
(56:37):
old and you know if people are going to judge me based on that,
then I don't really need it in my life.
So I'm not really worried about it.
But the I think you're doing a fantastic job and a fantastic
service. I used to be in this space.
I used to have a very active YouTube channel.
I had about 8-9 hundred subscribers at one point which
is very modest but but it was I started getting some blowback
(56:59):
from some of the the nastier elements of the atheistic crowd
that that just, I don't know, very very very temperamental and
I just didn't want to deal with the drama And I'm I'm busy
building my business and and trying to take care of my family
and what you're doing I think isgreat and I just want to
(57:19):
encourage anyone that's watchingthis to just continue learning.
I'm sure you you you you feel the same.
Any any last thoughts you have before we sign up?
No, thanks for doing this. And yeah, I hope that this was
beneficial. It's kind of fun doing it in
reverse and being, yeah, yeah. So hopefully we'll have more
(57:43):
conversations. And like I said when we get off
the air, I have a couple things I want to share with you.
But if you have time. But but I've had fun doing this
and I'm glad we finally connected.
All right. Yeah, this sounds good.
And yeah, we can do this again sometime.
And yeah, thanks for tuning in and make sure you guys follow on
the YouTube. Join the Facebook group.
(58:03):
Follow it Jesus the Jew within judaism.com and make sure you
guys plug in and like and subscribe.
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