An Entire Messianic Congregation Converts to Judaism - A Conversation with Richard Cortes - Part 1: Transitional Faith: Episode 13

The podcast episode commenced with Richard Cortes and Jeramiah Giehl providing introductions. Jeramiah presented the Pulling the Thread podcast and delved into Richard's background, emphasizing his role as the founder of Foundation of the Word, a previous Messianic congregation that later embraced Judaism. Richard then shared his personal journey, recounting his initial exposure to Hasidic Judaism in New York City and subsequent encounter with Christianity in Puerto Rico. He discussed his reconnection with religion as an adult and his involvement with the Assemblies of God, which ultimately prompted him to explore the teachings of the Church Fathers and pursue leadership within the church.

Richard Cortes recounted his path toward Judaism, which involved locating a synagogue and dedicating two years to study under an Israeli rabbi. He detailed the challenges associated with establishing infrastructure and living conditions in Northeast Arizona, including the acquisition of a septic system, water supply, and the construction of his mother's retirement residence. He also highlighted the difficulties of building on clay-rich terrain and contrasted the region's weather conditions with those of the valley, which were more suitable for camping. In summary, Richard's experiences underscored the significance of adapting to unfamiliar environments and acquiring new skills when navigating uncharted territory.

Jeramiah and Richard delved into the origins and mission of their organization, which aimed to transition people from church settings to Torah-based practices. They clarified that their objective was never to convert Jews but rather to facilitate an understanding and practice of Messianic Judaism among individuals. The conversation revolved around the label of "Messianic Judaism" and its potential for misinterpretation, as many of their members were Gentiles who had not converted to Judaism.

They reflected on their decade-long involvement in the movement, their interactions with fellow educators and organizations, and the controversies surrounding their recent embrace of Judaism, including the criticism they faced for identifying as Messianic Jews.

The discussion also touched upon the significance of studying Hebrew and comprehending the cultural context intertwined with the language. They explored the limitations of relying solely on concordances and the potential for misunderstandings when interpreting Hebrew through a Christological lens. Richard shared his personal journey of transitioning from Messianic Judaism to mainstream Judaism and his decision to cease teaching the New Testament. They also emphasized the importance of questioning one's beliefs and pursuing knowledge, even if it entails challenging deeply ingrained convictions.

Chapters & Topics - Chapter descriptions

• 0:13 Introduction and Personal Background
• 2:32 Richard's religious upbringing and exposure to different faiths
• 5:56 A Personal Experience at Holyland Theme Park
• 8:58 Richard Cortes' Journey to Judaism
• 13:46 Building Infrastructure and Living Conditions in Northeast Arizona
• 17:24 The Origins and Mission of the Organization
• 23:27 Messianic Gentiles and Authentic Judaism
• 34:10 Discussion on Studying Christianity and Hebrew Roots
• 36:46 The Importance of Learning Hebrew and the Distortion of Christological Concepts
• 41:32 The decision to no longer follow Jesus and embrace Judaism
• 45:10 Debunking the Virgin Birth
• 50:13 Richard Cortes discusses removing New Testament teachings from Shabbat services
• 56:40 The realization that Messianic Judaism is not authentic Judaism
• 57:48 Experience with Character Assassination
• 58:52 Character assassination and its impact on truth

Keywords: Hebrew, Judaism, Jesus, Movement, Arizona, Torah, Congregation, Christianity, Gentiles, Conversion, My Life, Synagogue, Christians, Jews, Antisemitism, AntiJudaism, Messianic Judaism, Hebrew Roots, Antimissionary,

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
All right, Welcome to the Pulling the Thread podcast.
I'm your host, and today we'll be talking with Richard Cortez.
He is the founder and leader of Foundation of the Word, a former
messianic congregation or group.That converted to Judaism, so
we're going to explore that one today.

(00:31):
I always like to start with the personal intro and get to know
the people I'm talking to. I think when you personalize
things, it kind of helps bring people in.
So tell me about your background, your religious
upbringing, and just kind of start from there.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Well, I was born part of my lifeand raised in New York City.

(00:56):
A good portion of I was born in Manhattan but was raised part of
my life in Brooklyn, NY. Sorry, the Bronx, NY, where we
lived in a Jewish community. So my first exposure really to
religion essentially was Hasidut's Judaism only because
in our apartment was owned by byHasidic Jew and all our

(01:18):
neighbors were Jewish. So we we kind of stuck out like
a sore thumb in the in the neighborhood.
But they liked us. So my family really wasn't
religious at that point, but again, that was my first
exposure. My best friend, you know, they
were of course, was Jewish. So I spent an enormous amount of
time in the apartments and whatnot and was able to again be

(01:43):
be exposed to that. It was later in my as I grew up
older that my parents unfortunately divorced and we
ended up moving to Puerto Rico. Where I was exposed to
Christianity and that was that, that was the first introduction
for me, for Christianity. And there my grandfather took me

(02:08):
to his church, which was Pentecostal.
So that was a huge impact for mecoming from what I've had, what
I've been exposed to, to to thatand you know, started growing up
in the, in the Pentecostal church.
My grandmother was Catholic. So that was, that was a little
comeback in the household or a Pentecost and a Catholic visited

(02:29):
my grandmother's church as well.And then I said I grew up older
and older. We we settled for the Assemblies
of God and Southern Baptist as well.
Later in my adult adulthood, I really got really sick of
religion. I wasn't really getting answers
in Christianity. So I walked away.

(02:50):
Live a secular life for many, many, many years.
And it wasn't until my later adulthood when I was ready to
get married that ended up returning back to religion and
and wanted to seek, wanted to seek God obviously.
And I had a meltdown. You know I had a business that I
own. It was a landscape company that
I own and I had big, major commercial accounts in the in

(03:13):
the South Florida area or Mid Florida area and.
It was one night that I had a meltdown and I I never forget
that. I started talking to God and
said I need to I need to seek you because it's been it's been
too many years that I've been away from you and so we do.
We started to return back to thechurch and that's when I went to
the Assemblies of God and started taking things serious.

(03:34):
Got married. And it was during this time
where I really was searching as an adult.
It's seriously searching and. Really, I started partaking a
lot in the Sunday schools that they had to offer and started
digging deeper into the Assemblies of God and the

(03:55):
theology, you know, the theological system.
At that point, the pastor, I hadbasically advised my pastor that
I was interested in leadership. So we were I was starting to to
do corresponding courses to leadme into the seminary school and.

(04:16):
The more obviously, as I startedgetting involved more with the
Assemblies of God and the theological understanding of who
God is, that led me to really, you know, start studying the
Church Fathers. And that's really where the
journey technically began. And the turning point for me
there was, I'll never forget this was a a Christmas season in

(04:39):
Orlando, FL by that. So it's beautiful weather.
And we ended up, I don't know ifyou're familiar, they had in
Orlando, they had a theme park called the Holy Land in Orlando,
and it was. I've heard of it.
I'm vaguely familiar. With it, it was really
structurally amazing theme park.It was in the Orlando area, near

(05:00):
Disney, of course, and the ownerof the park was actually a
Sabra, a Jew who was, you know, believing and and and Yeshu.
But he, he created this theme park that was really, really
amazing. It had the replica of the temple

(05:21):
for the second temple. So when you walk into the theme
park, essentially it was as if you were second.
You were stepping in to, you know, the second temple period
and all the employees were in tunics.
They had sheep roaming around the property.
It was just amazing. They had vendors in every corner
and and it's just again the the the the flavor was there And

(05:45):
that that night I never forget when I step into that theme park
and they had, they actually had a, it's called scriptorium and
they were housing. I don't know how many tourists
rose in that in that little museum there.
It was amazing. It was my, you know, I I was
just mind blowing amazing teachings.
It was just great. So there was this one, you know,

(06:07):
it was all divide. It was very, very, very Jewish
center. They had this one theme in there
that was called the wilderness Tabernacle.
And the guy that was actually doing a teaching in there was
actually another Sabra, another Jewish man born in the land and
he was dressed as Aaron. He had the white tunic, had the
shofar and everything and he blew the shofar and and that

(06:30):
really really like completely just touched my Nishama and.
Anyway, I started talking to himand I never forget that night
the park closed at nine. It was like 945 and I was still
talking to this guy and I I justdidn't want to let him go
because just I there was just something about his national
model. It was just beautiful.

(06:50):
And on that drive back home thatnight with my wife, I remember
we got home because we were likean hour and a half away.
So we got home, you know, probably it was somewhere around
midnight, somewhere around there.
She went to bed and I went to mybackyard.
I'll never forget that night. And all I did was cry until 4:30
in the morning. It was literally a four hour

(07:13):
just crying. And I have no idea why I was
crying, but I was just crying. And my wife woke up in the
morning and then I was just, my eyes were all bloodshot because
I was been crying all night. And I told her I I can't go back
to the church, you know, I don'tknow what what I experienced
there last night. Something something that it did

(07:34):
something to minus your mind. I I have to I have to seek God
and I need to find a synagogue that's what I told her so I did.
I found a local cynical somewhatlocal synagogue and it was
actually in Florida. They're very popular post
shortage Dhabi. And the the rabbi there of

(07:56):
course was another Sabah. He was Israeli and started
studying him for two years and. My wife finally came.
This was a battle. You know, I'm kind of not to
make the story too, too long, but, you know, in between it was
just a lot of battles because she was not on board with this.
She grew up Catholic. So this was, you know, just
stepping out of Catholicism to to the Protestant movement was

(08:18):
a, it's a big, it was a big change.
So much less now leaving the, you know, leaving the Protestant
movement to go into a Jewish movement.
And anyway, she finally came to the synagogue to visit, and it
was just way too Jewish for her.She couldn't take it.
So about 2 1/2 years into it, I ended up finding another place
that will be a little bit more gentilized than, you know, than

(08:40):
Judaic. And that's when I found RUAC
International Ministries. And it was there that I ended up
getting ordained. It was there that I did my
discipleship training, and it was there that my wife finally
was able to leave, of course, Christianity behind someone.

(09:00):
And step into at least being open to listening to Torah and
tonight. So you know once I got ordained
through David Jones. Doctor David Jones was my was my
leader at that point, and that was in the messianic movement.
Yeah, yeah. There was, in actuality back

(09:21):
then, they were really, really messianic.
They were more, you know, today it's a bit different.
It's just become more Christianized.
But. When I first, when I first was
introduced to the Rock International was very, very
Jewish center. And in any event after my

(09:42):
training and everything, we ended up moving to Arizona.
My mother had just retired from the University of South Florida
and wanted to be able to get herhouse and she wanted to get out
of the city. I mean, we always grew up in
major cities, so. We'll kind of burn out already
from that one or something. A little bit more quiet, more
peaceful, more in the mountain. So we we ended up moving to

(10:05):
Arizona and I was in here when Ifound it FLTW.
And the journey was now when youwhen you went to found it, you
found it it as a messianic congregation.
Yes, yes. Before we jump, I'm going to get
back into that. So interesting segue or

(10:26):
interesting simulated like. So when I got married, I wanted
to have a Jewish wedding and I wanted to raise my kids Jewish.
But my ex's family strong, Southern family Bible belt
values, I just didn't think thatwould go so messianic.

(10:47):
Judaism was like a Segway. There's a way to do the Jewish
things and appease the Christianbackground.
So I felt like that relationshipled me to kind of compromise
what I wanted to do. But it was an interesting
experience along the way. But all right, So and then we
went through our conversion in Scottsdale, AZ, at New Shoal.

(11:12):
The rabbi there is Conservative.And and we'll get into kind of
your experience in a bit here, but all right.
So kind of lay the groundwork for foundation of the word and
then like kind of what you were doing when you guys got to
Arizona there at first? So coming to Arizona was
actually very interesting. We ended up, I was looking at
property of course in the Phoenix area.

(11:34):
Obviously it's the most, you know, popular area in the
technically in Arizona and for some reason the property just
wasn't working out. So my agent ended up finding
something here in the show low area.
I have no idea about this place,and as a matter of fact.
To be honest with you, I've never been to Arizona in my

(11:54):
life. We ended up coming only because
my mother had come with her sisters and they did, you know,
they did the Four Corners where they visited the West.
And she really loved this place.So she wanted she wanted to come
out here. So I was like okay, let's go.
And I had just came back from a trip to Israel when this
happened at the same time. And so we we ended up coming in

(12:16):
here and we found this piece a lot here in Shola, which was
very good. We we liked it.
And the groundwork here is what really got interesting.
I mean we ended up you know may I remind you again I was born in
New York. So you know coming to this land
you know you got the language isdifferent terminologies are
different. It it's, you know I'm I'm

(12:38):
introduced to terms like perking, which I have no idea
what perking means. But in the city, everything is
provided for you. The water's provided for you.
The lecture's provided for you. All these things are provided
for you. So we coming to a bear land.
It's beautiful, but it's bear. There's nothing.
So now I'm learning that okay you know there's such thing as a
septic you know that's where theOR your you know waste goes and

(12:59):
and what not. And so we're we're, we're trying
to perk in here, we're trying toget water.
So we we purchased you know of course we got the perking test
done. We ended up getting a septic.
Then we worked on getting water and one is the beautiful thing.
We ended up getting water from the Coco Nino Reserve here in
Arizona, which is absolutely amazing water.

(13:21):
And then from there was just building the land, building
ground, because again here in Arizona, you probably know, I
don't know if you too familiar with the Northeast of Arizona,
but it's it's very rich in clay,very rich in clay and when it
rains it is the most horrible place to be because as you're

(13:42):
walking you, you, you're gettingtaller as you're walking.
So a lot of work and a lot of resources was was really dumped
into really creating an infrastructure here, building my
mom's retirement home which I ended up helping with the with
the contractor that we got. So you know it was on stage of
the first stages was just getting, you know, getting the

(14:05):
logistics that we needed to be here and then building the house
and then finally probably it took maybe.
I would say probably close to 9 months to a year or so when we
decided Okay, we're going to start now working on FLTW,
obviously trying to get a gathering here.

(14:25):
So we started with a tent. Believe it or not, I had a big,
huge it was. It must have been at least 400
square feet. And it was a Pioneer canvas tent
in Arizona where it's hot. Do you guys get valley fever up
there? Because I know in the Phoenix

(14:45):
area, valley fever is a thing because of the dust, but that is
hot. 10th in Arizona, man. Yeah.
Well, here it's interesting in the Northeast of Arizona where
we at, if you were to visit here, you would never guess that
you're in Arizona. You would think that you're in
Colorado or in Montana. It's very green.

(15:07):
We had 6500 feet above sea level.
So it's pretty nice all year round, believe it or not.
Like I'll give you an example onour summers we might hit 90
that's like the peak 9095, that's like San Diego weather.
Right. And and and now for the fall, we

(15:28):
like in the 60s and 70s and we get snow in the winters.
So it's it's completely different from the valley,
completely different. It's actually very, very nice
weather. You really technically don't
even need an air conditioning uphere.
Most people have swamp poolers and you can get away with it.
So for camping, it's actually perfect.

(15:49):
It's, it's perfect weather for it.
So it gets a little tough in thewinters because in the winters
it gets cold. You know, you're at maybe 40
degrees high and you know you'reon your teens at night, you
know, and sometimes single digits.
So like to get back on track a little bit on this.
So foundation of the word when you started it, it's messianic.

(16:16):
At the time. Are you identifying as a
messianic gentile? I mean what what it what was the
mission of this? Was it to convert Jews or I mean
what? What was your kind of founding
synopsis? Of this thing, yeah.
One thing for certain, it was never to convert Jews.

(16:37):
That was never, ever in my mind.Our our objective at that point
was to be able to bring active. Actually the other way around,
our objective at that point was to be able to bring people out
of the church and to Torah. That was really our objective
and. It worked very well.
I mean, our idea was to do that and to get involved obviously

(17:00):
with outreach work within our local community to be able to
get back to the community. That's one of the things that
always kind of bothered me aboutthe Macy and movement is that
there was a lot of teaching, butnot a whole lot of my safer
ring, not a lot of whole lot of these.
So we wanted to make that difference and we got involved a
little bit with the community and helping out in the
community. And anyway, we set up the tent.

(17:23):
I ended up putting the tent in a.
In a big platform that I ended up building and it had a wood
stove in it. So it stayed very warm during
the season and we were able to do gatherings in there.
And so once I set it up, the theinteresting thing about it is
that because, you know, we were wearing zits at that time and we

(17:44):
walked into town, you know we will.
We're just doing our shopping intown.
We're not trying. Were you identifying as a
messianic gentile at this time? As a well, I didn't really
technically didn't identify whatmessianic gentile I, if I report
correctly. I never really identify what I
mean because you hadn't went through conversion and become

(18:05):
like full on Jewish. So I mean yeah, I was trying to
situate like where you guys kindof situate we.
We, our label was Messianic Judaism because that's where you
know, that was the title in general for for what we came out
of. Not that I came up with the
title. That was just the title that was

(18:25):
given. So I was going along with the
title that was given, which was Messianic Judaism.
Now today as I think back it wasthe most inappropriate title, of
course very misleading and and I'm fully in agreement with
that, but at that time didn't think even twice about it
because the associations that weare affiliated with, they
identify with Messianic Judaism,so.

(18:49):
Whether you were Gentile or whether you were Sabra, I was
irrelevant. It's what you represented as a
whole. So I mean, looking back now, do
you see Gentiles being poor, observant, but not converting to
Judaism as maybe a bit of a contradiction or misnomer in
there? Yeah, I think so.
I think so for sure. You know it's it's especially

(19:13):
you know it's interesting and and later I'm talking later
years. Is that because I was, you know,
I've been in this, I was in the Maciani movement for at least I
think it was like 14 years somewhere around there.
And you know, we were involved heavily and back back in Florida
we were involved heavily and allthe major conferences in Orlando

(19:35):
to Miami, to North Carolina, allthat region in Georgia.
So, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with the Mia.
MJAA and all these different groups, we we attended to a lot
of these and as a matter of factwe helped set up a lot of these
conferences and whatnot. So I became very familiar with a
lot of these terminologies that they were again, they were just

(19:57):
somewhat solely adopted to a degree and met a lot of the, you
know, if you want to call it Class A teachers, you know, like
Rico Cortez for instance. I don't know if you're familiar
with him and and many of the other part you know.
Teachers that that you got in that in that movement that are

(20:17):
elite teachers so that they speak.
But to answer the question in reality, yeah, I I never, like
nobody ever came to me and said,well, what are you particularly,
I never identify as a Jew personally.
I never did that. I always said that I was, I was
going, but I was practicing Macyand Judaism.

(20:38):
That was you know if they ever asked me personally that's what
I would say but our representation as a whole as a
organization we were we may see anti Judaism but yeah it's it's
interesting how a lot of that today has been somewhat with
it's a matter of fact in not to divert from this but in our

(20:59):
conversion. One of the things that because
you know we're in Jewish news and the Jewish news get an
article in US and everything Jewish Telegraph Agency is is
actually putting out a documentary in our organization
and that goes to like four or five different countries outside
of US to the Jewish communities of course.
So I've been, I've been interviewed by a whole

(21:20):
different, you know, Jewish newsand and and and agencies and
whatnot. And of course we got a lot of, a
lot of good feedback, but a lot of negative feedback as well.
And one of the negative feedbacks, which you know, the
lady going to say that she said was, well, how can you be a

(21:40):
Maciana Jew and convert, you should have been then a maciatic
gentile, which is interesting iswhat we're talking about right
now. And it's true.
But The funny thing is that whenyou go to these organizations,
no organization will ever label themselves as a Maciana Gentile,
even though the founders of them, half of them may be
Gentiles and maybe other half may be Jews.

(22:02):
I would say more than half are Gentiles.
I mean, did you not notice? I mean, well, I noticed like.
When I went to Phoenix, because I was involved with the Jewish
Voice ministry and Doctor Raymond Gannon was setting up
the King Seminary and all that stuff, he was one of the
founders of the Messianic movement, a Gentile.

(22:24):
He founded a synagogue in. You call it a synagogue.
It really wasn't a synagogue, but that's what he called it, a
Messianic church, whatever. But back in the 70s?
And and something that I found very offensive was like put the
kibosh on everything. I was like I'm done I'm out he

(22:46):
he he said dress more orthodox than the you know from to
convert them and I was like I'm out I'm done.
You know, at that point I was like there's yeah, you noticed.
I mean he he outright said it. So like that at that point I was
like, yeah. Did you notice a lot of

(23:07):
messianic gentiles, the leaders from the 70s and 80s, they like
they'll, they'll wear seat seatsfrom time to time, they'll dress
that way, but then they'll go and they'll buy a double
cheeseburger with bacon, you know, at at McDonald's.
And you're like, what are you doing?

(23:28):
Like, do you ever notice that kind of like behavior from?
The messianic gentiles who are dressing up to convert.
Did you notice that kind of stuff going on?
Oh, absolutely. I remember the first time I ever
went to an MJA conference, I sawpeople there dressed like there
was sat Mat Hassidis, you know, And it was interesting, you

(23:53):
know, at that point I'm thinking, wow, these guys are
really Jews, you know, And and because I, again, I grew up with
that part of my life. I grew up with that group.
So I I was very familiar with that.
And yeah, that turned out to saythat they, you know, that they
were going, so I'm like, well, why are you dressed like again,

(24:13):
like the hussy dudes then, you know, it's like, yeah.
And and yeah, it it. Unfortunately, yeah.
There's a big mischaracterization that takes
place on that, especially when you're dressing in that role and
you're not living up to that role.
And there's plenty of that. There's plenty.
Plenty. Now, it's interesting though,
that you said that. You see, I never experienced

(24:33):
that. I was never told you need to
dress this way because you have to make sure that we convert
these Jews. Those voices never came to me.
I mean, I'm just actually mindblowing.
I'm not much appalled that you even telling me this, to be
honest with you. It's crazy that they have said
that to you. Wow.

(24:54):
Yeah, that was never voiced to me.
Ever. I mean, I felt like the attitude
was there. I felt like I'm like, why are
Gentiles leading a messianic Jewish thing and trying to look
Jewish? It was weird.
And and you know, I think like you had an experience where your
experience of Judaism, like it'slike the way you know a fake

(25:15):
bill from the real bill is you study a real bill so you had
experience with the real and then all sudden like you're
spending all this time in the fake.
I'll be it. It was a reason of compromise
that brought you there. But through time, I think
you're, you know maybe you can tell me if this is wrong.
But you're able to go this don'tlook like the real right.
Oh absolutely. Absolutely.

(25:36):
You know and and maybe initiallynot so much again when I really
what that came alive is when we started going to the conferences
in the shoe why wouldn't he say a shoe.
Because again the the the actualquote UN quote synagogue that I
was a part of the head rabbi that was Israeli as a matter of

(25:57):
fact shortage David. Here's the the interesting thing
about this also so shortage David would not ever hire.
I don't know about now but back then they will never ever hire a
rabbi who was gentile. As a matter of fact it was
prohibited if you were part of like MJA and A10.
I'm talking about way back then.I don't know how this thing is

(26:17):
run today, but back then, if youwere a goi, you had no part of
leadership. It was, it was completely
prohibited. You have to show that you were
ethnically Jewish in order to dothis, which I found very, very.
Okay. So shortest of it.
I'm not familiar with it. That's a messianic congregation.
Yeah. One of the Torah observant ones.

(26:42):
More so, Yeah. Yeah, more Jewish, more.
Well, more with a little bit more of authentic Judaism than
Hebrew roots, you know, in the Macian and moon.
And we got categories, as you know.
You know, we have Hebrew roots. We got Black Israelites, we got
the Ephramites, we have, you know.
So the list goes on and on. But then you got of course what

(27:05):
is commonly known as authentic Judaism.
That was the group that I was more part of because the the
people who were running it were actually ex Jews who actually
have been in a shul who understand the the order of the
shul. So they they operate this in a
more authentic way. I'll be that is to you know
obviously proselytes used to convert convert them to

(27:27):
Christians but that was never something that was voiced to me
and it was never I I personally,at least in the in the
synagogue, I never felt that. But what I did feel was a
separation between natural born Jews and Gentiles.
Like that category was very heavy.
In other words the Gentile cannot do this.

(27:49):
There was certain things that you just were not allowed to do.
So it's kind of like it's, I hate to say, but which is very
interesting because they adhere to.
Yes, you still, but they run andoperate the shoe like an
authentic Orthodox shoe. You know, it's almost like
they're saying, well, you guys can come in but you're not

(28:09):
obligated to keep the Torah. That was their model.
But the natural borns, they werebound by it.
So it was very twisted and I mean very authentic.
But that's what you were experienced today.
If you were to walk in and shootand you're a boy and they would
never tell you, you have to do the Torah, you more than welcome
to come and learn. But we're not converting you
type of thing. So it kind of was operated that

(28:30):
way. It was very and to a degree.
It kind of offended me a little bit because I wanted Torah.
I wanted. To Yeah.
Well, I mean, I the, the Shoal that I went to in Dallas,
Baruca, Sham, this messianic congregation, whatever, they
they were like that, you know, full Torah service and the

(28:51):
Gentiles had their place, But there's certain things they
couldn't do, which oddly, eventually led me.
Down a path that I mean for me historically talking about
Second Temple Judaism, studying the Church fathers, getting back

(29:14):
to the roots. I don't think that.
I don't think that one. If I'm going to say if there was
a historical Jesus, he advocatedfor anybody to be anything but a
Jew and his family and followersconverted people to Judaism.
And there's. Documents that stayed as much.
But moving that aside, I I don'tthink it would have been

(29:37):
anything other than a Jewish movement had fall and everything
else not come along, which is a whole nother situation.
But oddly, when I came to like, wait, he was a Jew, his
followers were Jews, they converted people with
circumcision and mikva and stuff.
Why am I a Christian again with this messianic stuff?

(29:57):
Doesn't make sense. And here's the big one, the
clincher for me. Most festivals in the Torah
you're never going to find Jesus.
So the whole messed anic thing, Jesus is in every festival so
like how do they're cramming this thing in and you're just
like no he's not in Seco. No, no, this is there's stop

(30:18):
stop trying to force him in and eyes of Jesus hop do scriptures
and yeah it was just I was like it's not authentic.
You know, and so I mean, what how did you grapple with so
you're a messianic congregation,How I'll be it.

(30:40):
It seems like maybe my perspective, how I'd read it is
that you felt like you're getting Christians back to the
Torah and Judaism away from Christianity, which was kind of
something that I shared in my transition process as well.
But. At some point you want to get to
the authentic. So what?

(31:00):
What transition? Like what happened in your
process that you went from a messianic gentile, you know,
that's trying to make Torah observant, Gentiles, follow a
Jewish Jesus. How do you go from that to it?
It give me the process and then how do you get to, like, going
through conversion and we'll getthere.

(31:21):
I don't want you to do this one first, but eventually, like, how
do you take a whole congregationwith you?
Right. That's impressive.
But so how do you go from this messianic gentile movement to
like, where? Where do you change and and and
what happened for you, right, right.

(31:43):
So that's, you know, a lot of stuff in there that's that's
kind of baked in. One of the things that I think
for at least I can speak from myexperience, it's that I was
searching, Here's the difference.
There is a group of people who come to make sionic gentile,

(32:03):
make sionic Judaism where we want to tie with it and they
come because they want they theyfeel that perhaps maybe this is
a more authentic way in how Jesus would have done.
You see what I mean? And and and really I think that
that's that's a good portion of the people who are actually
coming into this movie and is that they generally they want to

(32:24):
follow Yeshu in a more authenticway.
You see for me coming into this again, it was never about what
we want to try to proselyte Jews.
It's a matter of fact that's when it started not making sense
because I was trying to get the church to convert to Judaism.
You see what I mean? But it almost, it almost feels

(32:47):
like there was a wrestle there and I couldn't quite fit point
at that point. And in any event, what really
separated, at least from my, again from my perspective, was
is it's studying. Most people would never dig,
probably as much as you dig or even as much as I have dug.
Most people will never go to that extreme to find out the

(33:09):
roots of Christianity #1 and I think that's really the big one
right there. It's it's do you have that
desire to really search why you believe what you believe.
And as I started studying a lot of course like I said because of
my upbringing and in the movements that I was involved
with it was always more traditional.

(33:29):
What really opened that opportunity was really
essentially the to Russia be albeit which is the OR of law
learning the hazard, learning the Sages, learning the Ramban
mission at Torah. You know, all of this, all these
literatures I was open to because of the movement that I
was involved with. Now, most people unfortunately

(33:49):
would not have that. If you were to walk in, for
instance, into a Hebrew roots congregation.
They would never be quoting you,Ramban, you know, Mishnet, or
you would never hear nothing. So it really depends on where
you land. And unfortunately for me, Bo
Hashem, I landed in a place where at least I was introduced
to this and I fell in love with it.

(34:11):
I started studying more. And the more you study, the more
you start seeing. Yes.
You just does not play a role inthis.
He, you know, the more distant he becomes, let's put it that
way. Hebrew was another one going to
the old part. Like I said, most people will
never go this far because they just contend where they're at.
In other words, they're coming as Christians.

(34:34):
And I hate to see it, but Messianic Judaism or Hebrew
roots, it's just become another branch of Christianity.
Yeah, it's it's like a Pentecostal, A G Southern
Baptist. Okay, here you are.
Now you have another flavor of Christianity.
That's all it is. And as the years went by, I
started realizing, wait a minute, this is just another

(34:57):
movement of Christianity again. The more you study, the more you
realize that the more you are exposed to other groups, you
start seeing really the bigger picture.
Let's put it that way. And so for me, studying the old
pan did a huge favor for me studying Hebrew from actually
real Jewish people as opposed toHebrew roots teachers, because.

(35:21):
That's so I had a pastor and hishis major was Hebrew in college.
So I just want to illustrate this.
So he goes his One of his majorsin college is Biblical Hebrew.
But yet when he goes to look at Hebrew, he still has to rely on
a strong concordance every time.You can't read it fluently.

(35:42):
So the thing that in my conversion that maybe was is
similar is that when you learn to read the Hebrew and then
every week you're confronted with reading Hebrew, your
language acquisition goes a lot higher, your language immersion
goes a lot higher. So I would say a lot of people.
Even in the Messianic Jewish Hebrew roots and Christians who

(36:04):
who study Hebrew, they still strongly rely on strong every
time, and they can't literally take it, pick it up and read a
passage in Hebrew without havingto constantly consult their
concordances and stuff. And you're like.
Your major was Hebrew and you can't fluently read this.

(36:24):
So there is there's a different level in that.
So I you probably experienced that when you're when you
started getting into Hebrew. But that was a huge transition.
Like I'm like I because I remember relying on all these
concordances and I know all these languages cuz I'm looking
at looking up in the concordance.
Now I can read it and and understand the majority of it.
It's a huge difference. Well, and unfortunately you had

(36:47):
on a note that's very important.So you know a lot of these,
again teachers and I'm sure they're very genuine, they
study, you know, biblical Hebrewand what not.
I'm not, I'm not bashing them oranything like that.
But the problem is that when youget to that point in your life,
at that point, I mean we're talking that you are the horse.
You know, you go into seminary school, you may take some

(37:07):
classes, you know that are, you know, biblical Hebrew one and
two, whatever case may be. But you know, by that point,
when you're ready at that point studying in Hebrew, you're
already studying Hebrew with a crystalological lens.
That's the problem. And it really, that's the
problem. I mean, when you look at
concordance, I mean I would never recommend concordance,
especially strongs. It is completely, I've seen it

(37:29):
first hand how they manipulate alot of the shortages in Hebrew,
which don't even belong there. But again, it's because it's, it
is filtered through a crystalological lens.
Yeah. So of course when when they're
reading this they're they're already, it's already color for
them you mean the Hebrews color for them you know and now they
start seeing in the Hebrew they start seeing yes you.

(37:52):
So now everything becomes a theophony, you know what I mean.
And and you know again you startlooking start looking at
metaphors and homilies in the within the language and it again
it's very distorted. So this is the this is the
difference I tell people, between studying with the
natives, you know, language speaker who was actually from
the old fun, versus a gentile who just learned it recently

(38:15):
because again, unfortunately, itis tainted even with the
language, it becomes completely tainted because now they're
again, they're reading crystallological, they they're
forcing crystallological concepts into the Hebrew.
I'll give you an example. Here's the biggest one, the
biggest one within the Hebrew Roots movement is the Alec TA.
As a matter of fact, they even made a Bible called the Alec TA

(38:37):
and and and why? What did they get the Aletta
from? Well, they get it from the F,
you know, which is you know it'spointing to a definite article.
Whenever you study in the old find, you understand that this
has nothing to do with Yeshu, you know again this is language.
But now they reading into that saying, oh, there he is.
So the Aletta, every time you read it, even though

(38:57):
grammatically speaking we use that whenever we're referring to
a specific person or an item. Now they're reading it
differently. They're not reading it that way.
They're reading it as oh, there is yes, you, you know, and and
that that's the problem. It just becomes very distorted.
And they're not really technically learning Hebrew, you
know, and as you probably know as well, Hebrew is a very, very

(39:20):
cultural language that is culturally driven.
So even learning the language, if you learn the language but
you lack the culture, I mean youyou might just get by, but the
culture really is, it's really what the meat is that you have
to have that culture. And you only gonna find that in,
of course, going back to the authentic culture, which is the

(39:41):
Jewish culture. So how did you transition from
Messianic? And what brought you to the
point that you wanted to convert, right?
And then So what happened to Jesus?
How do you situate him? Where did he?
You know, because for Messianic Judaism, he's everything, right?

(40:03):
He's all the festivals, he's theTabernacle, he's all this stuff.
I mean, So what happened to Jesus?
And how did you end up getting to Judaism?
Like what? What happened there?
So, you know, through the years that I was here, of course,
we've been here, by the way, nine years now.
And we had, as you probably know, in the Hebrew roots and

(40:28):
messianic movement, there's really no unity.
It's very, very scattered. There's always arguments,
there's always fallouts and everybody's kind of making
things as they go along because it's just no standard, there's
no Torah, there's no shuhangaru,there's none of that.
So we went through a lot of fallouts in here.
And part of the reason was because, again, we were too

(40:49):
Jewish, by the way, for these people.
But to answer the question, whatended up is as I started digging
more into the Messora and I started digging more now looking
at this through Hebrew without being altered, basically I
started seeing things differently.
And every year I will find again.

(41:10):
Every year, yes, you will becomemore of a faraway concept.
In other words, as years progressed through the years
that I was here, I was teaching less and less of it.
Not because I was intentionally doing this.
It's just that every year, you know, as a teacher every year
you're growing and in Judaism we're growing every year.

(41:33):
You know, if if you staying the same way, there's a problem.
I mean even rabbis have been doing this 4050 years, they're
still growing. So as as that revelation started
coming more and more every year,I I started teaching less and
less of it into a cult and into a into basically a pivoted.
To the point where I one day gotup until the congregation that

(41:57):
we were going to stop teaching the New Testament for the year
because I wanted to do an assessment on it.
And that's when it started. When did that happen?
This happened actually accumulated to last year because
I didn't want to, you know, you know how this goes.
So you don't want to just jump to say okay, I'm just going to

(42:21):
go ahead and completely abandon.Yes.
You. First of all, at that point, I
wanted to make sure that we wereon the right track.
Number one, you know how they scare you.
You know, they and you hear the whole stories of people who have
were messianic and then they converted.
So their view as, you know, heretical, You know what I mean?
So, you know, you got that in the back of your mind.

(42:42):
You know, am I making the right choice?
Am I seeing this the correct way?
And what really broke the whole thing was I asked my teacher
because I had a a a good, a goodrelationship with the teacher.
At that point I asked him, can you mind if I ask you a
question? He said sure, say why is it that

(43:05):
Judaism does not accept Jesus that's the Messiah?
I'm just wondering not. And I told him I'm not trying to
convert. I just, I just want to know I'm
coming. Generally, I want to know.
And what was interesting is the way he responded, the way he
responded. So why do you believe in him?
And when he said that, it kind of struck me.

(43:26):
I wasn't expecting that. I wasn't expecting him to tell
me why do you believe in it? I was expecting him to give me a
laundry list of why he doesn't. So it kind of he said, well, why
do you? And I said, well, because I
don't know, because he's all over the Tunac, right.
He said, well, you've been studying Hebrew for a few years

(43:48):
now. Give me one reference in the
Tunac for it. I said OK, I'll take the
challenge sure enough. So we start.
I, you know, I I already had it figured out.
It's like I'm going to deal withthe virgin Burt, you know what I
mean? Is there Chapter 7?
Of course we're going to go there.
But here's the interesting thingabout it.
I can read Hebrew now, but I never, never, ever.

(44:09):
Now, here's what's Here's the thing.
It didn't connect for you until that point, though.
It didn't connect well. Not only that, I never thought
about Hey, let's go back to Isaiah Chapter 7.
Actually read this in Hebrew like until he said that.
It never dawned to me. Because here's the thing.
Here's the dangerous thing aboutthis It becomes absolute true.
Yeah, it's not, but it does. It's yeah, that's what I'm

(44:32):
saying kind of does like we don't have to verify we're we
already know, even though we never regret it.
So when he said that and I went and I read that in Hebrew,
that's when I was like, wow, I was like I said mamash appal or
what I read. They're like, wait, it doesn't
say virgin? No, that was the least of the

(44:52):
problems, to be honest with you.That was the the the least of
the problems. It's, you know, the way it was
conjugated and the whole thing. It's just.
I mean, speaking to somebody that was present in the room,
not future tense. Right.
Exactly. Exactly.
And And of course, if you continue reading, yeah, there it
is. So I was so excited, to be

(45:13):
honest with you. I was so excited.
I was just so excited that I called them the next day.
Yeah, I I watched off him when Isaid he's in Israel and I was
like, no way. And he said, well, tell talk to
me about it. And I was like, wow.
And he said, do you want to do you want to cover another one?

(45:35):
Tell me why. Why do you still believe in him
at this point? He's got me hooked now, you
know, like it. This is this is the the dynamics
have changed. Now the tables have turned and
so we know I, I, I that night actually when I read that I was
like, well, let me find another.I was already sold on that one
to me that did it. But I was like you know what I

(45:56):
want to test? Let me let me go to the next
one. So you know I went to Matthew.
Chapter two of course said that out of Egypt I called my son so
this can be fulfilled and and and I was like okay.
So anyway I found the scripture for that.
I said Jose read Jose. As a matter of fact, all I had
to do was just read Jose and in English.
I don't even have to go to Hebrew, read it in English

(46:18):
because I have a Tanak. So I'm just reading the tanak
and and Jose, the first chaptersof Jose, of course it's talking
about Israel coming out, you know, Again, you don't even have
to read that in Hebrew. It's like this is so simple.
And that's when I was like, wow,but what really did it that I
stopped at that very moment? I stopped and I went back to

(46:38):
Matthew chapter 2, because at the beginning of Matthew chapter
2, I went to read about the Virginburg and I was like, wait
a minute, why am I going any further?
I said to myself, if Yeshu was not conceived, he's not.
If he's not conceived, really, this is not a virgin bird.

(46:59):
Then this means this means that it must have been an ordinary
bird. And if it was an ordinary bird
by Christian dogma, he can take my sin away.
Because according to Christian dogma, no human being can take
your sin away. I mean they even declare that
only only Jesus can do that, youknow, because he's half God, you
know, whatever. So.
So you know, again it it it literally what I'm saying is

(47:21):
that once that revelation came, once I saw that in Hebrew, the
whole tower collapsed. Like most people will do this.
If you were to because I've seenthis, you would challenge
somebody with the virgin birth and they'll see it, right.
They're like, wow, got it. But then they want to go to
another chapter to and it's like, why are we moving any

(47:42):
further? Let's stop for a minute.
If he's just a normal human being, according to your own
dogma, he can't take your sins away.
So we're done talking. If Jesus is just another man
they walk on earth, why are we even?
Why are we giving praises to this man then?
So for me that did it. I didn't have to go any further,

(48:03):
I did it just for own studies. But for me, the virgin bird did
it for me because I believe thatthat if you can debunk the
virgin bird, Christianity collapses completely because he
becomes just like you and I under divine.
So what's special about him? That's my whole point.
What holds Christianity together?
It's the fact that Jesus has to be divine.

(48:23):
It's the only way this works. Which I believe.
That's why he's a manmade religion.
Yeah, that's my thought. It has to work that way.
If you take that deity away fromhim again, the whole thing
collab, the whole, the whole, the whole tower just collapsed.
So that was really intriguing. So anyway, doing that last year

(48:44):
I started studying more and moreand and and I already had seen
the writing what's on the wall. I took away New Testament from
the from Saturdays, from Shabbatteachings.
People were starting to get a little weary because they saw
that we were not including, you know, I mean, I did this for one
Shabbat to another. I'm not kidding.
You following Shabbat, the people came and there's no

(49:07):
longer blessings for Jesus there.
You know, like everything is taken away and they like seeing,
like, wait a minute, what happened to all the Jesus
blessing? They're all gone.
And then suddenly there's no NewTestament either.
So people will really start to get weird and they're asking me
what's going on. I'm like, don't panic.
I'm just, we're just assessing. There's just things that we want

(49:27):
to make sure that we're, they'relined up with, you know, with
the, with the. I I called the Old Testament to
make them feel better with the Old Testament making sure that
everything is good. And sure enough at the end of
the year I was like and I remember this was Rosa Shana
last year and I was like, yeah, this is not going to work and

(49:49):
and that's when I broke the knees to the people.
I was like we cannot continue doing this guys.
You know, and I I basically, I basically had a meeting after
the service and I told him that I could no longer do this and
then what? Was everybody's reaction at this
point, Like how did how did theytake that?
And it was, well, it it was, it was a mixed feeling.

(50:15):
There was people who were not really speaking, but they were
really speaking to each other outside of the congregation.
So, so as it turns out, these people were calling each other
while they were here. They were pretending that
everything was good. But the minute they left in
here, they were calling each other, freaking out, essentially
like what's happening at FLTW, you know, and.

(50:38):
But here's how I broke the news.I told them myself and my wife,
for us personally, we no longer are going to adhere to yes, you
as the Messiah, OK, However, andI was very, very thorough about
this. I said, however, if you want to
continue believing in that, there is a place for you here.

(51:00):
Because ultimately, at the end of the day, the reason why you
here is because you want to learn Torah.
So I kind of flipped the script on them.
I said, you know what? Why are you here?
I mean, you're not here for a Sunday message, obviously,
because you will be on Sunday school.
If you wanted to learn about Jesus, obviously you already
believe he's the Messiah. So why are you here?
You're here because you want to learn about Tanaka.

(51:21):
You want to learn about Torah. That is not going to change
family. I told them that's not going to
change if anything is going to get better.
And I told them, I promise you, I'm not going to try to convince
you to give up. Jesus, we just want to learn
Torah. I said in an unbiased way.
That's it. And anyway, that did not fly.
It's unbeliev you know, to be honest with you, Jeremiah, this

(51:43):
was an eye opener for me. I mean, I I was suspected that
Messianic Judaism was really really obviously
mischaracterizes Judaism in manydifferent ways.
And and I just ethically speaking, I didn't think it was.
It just it just wasn't there. But when this happened, it was
it was almost like if Hashem wasshowing me There it is.

(52:07):
There's the anti-Semitic, anti-Semitism.
The root of it right now. And that was the test right
there, to be honest with you, because if I'm going to tell
you, hey, you could continue believing in Jesus, I'm not
going to take that away from you.
And I didn't tell him you need to leave.
If you don't, if you believe in Jesus, you need to get out of
here. Never said those words.

(52:28):
But you know, they they little by little, people just started
leaving. It was just like slowly, you
know, like families here and there started leaving.
And next thing I know, we come in, I come into our service,
Shabbat service one day and it was like more than more than 75%

(52:48):
of my congregation was gone, youknow, and people were, I was
getting phone calls telling me we're no longer going to come
back, you know what I mean? And even though I told them they
were like, we we, you know, we we cannot.
You know what they told me literally, we cannot let go of
Jesus. And that to me was an eye opener

(53:09):
right there. Like we're proclaiming God here,
but you can't let go of Jesus. Like, like it was so clear it's
another deity. Like they made it very clear
it's another deity. Well, you see the idolatry at
that .0. I mean really, really it just
jumps out because it's like whenhe's when most of these families
said to me we cannot let go of Jesus.

(53:31):
I'm thinking what do you think we preach in here?
The Buddha, you know what I mean?
Like what was going on? We, we we we're proclaiming God
here. You know, it's it's like it it
it was just mind blowing. I got to tell you it was mind
blowing to see this and I alwayssuspected it.
But, you know, I'm one of those type of person that I don't like

(53:51):
to jump into conclusions real quickly because people, the way
information comes through the mouth a lot of times can be
misunderstood. So I didn't, I mean, I always
been taught judge favoritely that was one of the things.
So I was judging everybody favoritely thinking, you know, I
understand they're they're just a little weary or whatever.
But when this thing came out andthey said we cannot let go of

(54:12):
Jesus, that was like, wow, like Hashem, just show me here's the
idolatry of Christianity, you know.
And I was very, very, very cautious not to call a idolatry
at that point. I was very cautious, but after
what I saw, I was like, it's confirmed, it is idolatry and
unfortunately, you know, it's it's something that I believe

(54:37):
that today the Gentile Nation isawakening to this.
Obviously so. Well, and it's why within the
Jewish community, Messianic Judaism can't be seen as
Judaism, because a Jew cannot attach another.
We can't have anything aside from Hashem so.

(54:57):
Right. You know for a Jew to attach
Jesus is adult idolatry Now for the nations, for the Guayim the
righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come.
So you know not to throw shade on Gentiles or you know non
Jews, but for Jews, Messianic Judaism is not Judaism.

(55:17):
And then that title is just a misnomer that shouldn't exist.
But it. I feel like it's a linguistic
trick to try to manipulate the masses to think something's
kosher that's not. And it's when I had, and I kind
of mentioned this, when I had Rabbi Tovia Singer the the book
Kosher Jesus. I can't see a kosher Jesus.

(55:38):
The only kosher Jesus is one that's not attached to
Christianity and it's a whole thing.
But yeah. So, OK, so you got to this point
now. So how did you get to the point
that you decided to go through conversion?
And then how did you get your congregation, those who are left

(55:59):
to go along with you, right. So it started how that ended up
evolving was that once the masses ended up leaving, first
of all, we went through major, major attacks.
And I'm not talking about just like, oh, you know, you Jew and,

(56:21):
you know, we're Christians or whatever.
I mean, we talking about, you know, serious La Shawn Hara.
We talking about formulating cases, saying that I was
committing fraud and misappropriating terminologies
that I said they even made-up stuff that I was, you know, even
spanking children in here. I mean, it was horrible,

(56:43):
Horrible. I I have never in my life ever.
And I grew up part of my life inNew York and I got a level with
you. I have never in my life
experienced such hatred like I saw here.
Like how can you sit in here andtry to incarcerate an innocent

(57:05):
person? Because you know that I'm
innocent only because I'm not adhering to Jesus anymore.
Like that's that is like the lowest of the lowest in my
opinion. Well, that's the tactic that
happens a lot. When they lose the argument on
the facts and the points and thematerial matters, they go to
character assassination. And character assassination is

(57:28):
therefore the way and the means to discredit the truth.
And when I can assassinate you, the truth no longer exists and
my conscious is clean. It's absolutely true.
Absolutely nail it right in the coffin because that's exactly
it. It's character assassination.
It's and by tournament terminology the sages is murder,

(57:49):
period. Because they say that that's
actually worse than murder because now you have to live
with that and and in any event real quickly because I do need
to add this to here. So one of the couples that was
part of our organization, they have moved 3-4 years back and
they were watching us online. They moved to another city in

(58:12):
Arizona. It's like 4-4, it's like 4 hours
from here. The husband heard when I said
this online. The day that I announced that we
no longer we're going to follow,he heard that he flipped
completely, started calling me acult leader and all these

(58:32):
different crazy stuff. Anyway, his wife, and it's in
the process of divorcing him right now because this has
gotten so bad that, I mean he wants, I mean this guy is into
polygamy, bringing people into his house that are Hebrew roots.
And I mean and it's it's just a bloody mess.
She's like, I don't want no partof this anymore, you know.

(58:55):
So he was one of the instigatorsfor this.
He was the one that because his wife ended up coming over here
for safety because she ran with her kids because I mean he's
abusive. He's all you know the guy's just
really my sugar. And when this thing came up that
we were going Jewish, forget it.He really lost like that
antisemitism rose up on him. And anyway he was one of the
ones that were saying that we were spanking his children and

(59:17):
and and whatnot. And yeah, I mean it got really,
really bad. But but it that's, that's the
that's it was interesting because for the first time I was
able to experience what the Jewshave suffered for thousands of
years. I mean, and really at a very
superficial level because I mean, at least I don't have Nazi

(59:38):
people coming in here trying to kill me.
But the character assassination was a very real new thing for
me. Never in my life I've ever
experienced this. And it was almost as how Shane
was telling me, Are you ready toreally be a Jew?
Because this is what you're going to be dealing with.
You know what I mean? So it was good.
It it has built us up as a community and it's made us

(01:00:00):
stronger. But to answer the question to go
back, it's I started teaching. I started showing the people and
here I started gathering people on Sundays outside of Chavez.
Right on Sunday I will bring himin to do an assessment on the
New Testament last I promise I was going to do.
And the group that actually remained, they were very
interesting to hear about this. Sure enough they were very

(01:00:22):
excited. They saw it.
They were like, wow, we cannot believe this and and whatnot.
And. So after doing, I think it was
like maybe four or five sessionsand and going into the book of
Matthew, they were all like, youknow what, Richard, we're, we're
good. We see it and we're with you and

(01:00:43):
and we want to continue coming. No mention of, you know,
converting at this point or anything like that.
It was just we just want to comehere.
So, you know, it was Jeremiah atthis point was very, very
difficult because up to this point, I've been here for 9
years. We were very well known in the
area as a messianic congregation.

(01:01:03):
And now it was like, okay, Wheredoes FLTW fit on the road now?
Because I already knew. For me personally.
I already knew I wanted to convert, you know, I wanted I I
I felt that every single time. I felt that I wanted to be a
part of the Jewish people. And and and I I felt that I had

(01:01:24):
a Jewish in a shaman. Either way which I'm I'll get to
you in a minute with that Gustobia came in here during the
summer so there was this one UMJit was one of the organizations
that were under by the way theseare all these guys supposedly
are Jewish. I don't know what how valid that
is or not but they supposedly one of the guys in the bait

(01:01:46):
being was in the Israeli army and whatnot and and and and so I
have to break the news to my obviously to the organization to
let them know I'm no longer going to be a part of this and I
need to remove myself from your listing.
I got really. Yeah, this got really
interesting now. So he, I remember he, he calls
me like at 9:30 at night. This was like in a Chavez.

(01:02:10):
At the Chavez, he's like, what what are you doing?
I say, well, you know, unfortunately, you know, we're
going in a different direction. And this is what I'm looking at,
you know, And I would expect going to say, hey man, good job,
whatever, you know, hey, you know, you might be making a
mistake, but hey, at least you're going to Judaism because
they're all about being Jewish and authentic Jewish.

(01:02:33):
In presentation. Oh man.
But let me tell you, it was a nightmare.
So he starts giving me the 5th degree.
This is the head of the bait bean starts telling me, you know
why we do Kiduv here? And I was like, you do Kiduv
here? What kind of kiduv are you doing
here? What we do?
Conversion. Now, how can you do conversion?
Is your conversion acceptable inthe nation of Israel?

(01:02:56):
He said well it's not really acceptable but it's a former
Ketu and and and anyway he's like, you know what you you.
He told me you're wasting your talent.
You're a very talented teacher. I don't know why you're doing
this. And da da da, da da.
And he sends me a video of Tovia.
That's what's interesting, because I want to show you this
video Tovia, how one of our It'sa Maciana guy, right?

(01:03:21):
It's challenging Tovia. Who was it?
I don't remember the guy. It was a young guy, a young guy
from New York. And the interesting thing is I'm
trying to recap. If I remember the guy was
talking about Tovia, that was like 2 separate videos.

(01:03:41):
Show me a video and then the guy's, That's what it was.
The guy was rebottling on a video of Tovia and I I watched
the video. I gave it.
I gave him the the benefit of the dial okay.
Let me let me check it out. And sure enough everything that
the guy say in the video actually proved to be being

(01:04:02):
right like like I I didn't understand what was the whole
point. And so I call him back and I'm
like, thank you for the video. But the guy that you sent in
that video just admitted that the Jews are the ones that that
carry on the the word of Hashem #1.
Your guy in the video prove and even admit it then no one knows

(01:04:23):
the Hebrew like the Jewish people, you know.
So you're proving my point is what I told him anyway he got so
upset and so yeah, it it was, itwas interesting.
They, they didn't have anything nice to say about Tovia Singer.
And the interesting thing about it is that I didn't.
Even probably because he does a really good, good job of proving
them wrong. Of course they're going to be

(01:04:44):
upset. I never have ever heard of Tovia
Singer by the way. I I have no idea who this guy
was and our and our leadership meeting.
We had leadership meetings like you know once a month he will
come up in the conversation in the leadership meeting and
everybody spoke so evil, this guy like they made him out to be

(01:05:04):
like the devil. And one day I was like you know
what I'm going to go look up this guy till we're single.
Who in the you know who is he? And sure enough I I found a
video on YouTube of him with himand me seem black.
Me seem black is a is a Hasidic rapper.
Yeah, and it was him and me seemblack and and and I I hit you

(01:05:25):
now, Jeremiah, I saw the video there.
I was going to hit play and for two days straight I couldn't hit
play. I was so afraid to hit play in
that video because I didn't, youknow, I didn't.
Everybody made him to be so bad.So you know and he's he's going
to lead your straight and one day I just found the the the Hoo
spot to do it so I hit play and and I was like wow everything

(01:05:48):
that I have uncover that sham was showing me.
Toby had just collaborated with it and it was good because it
was good to hear this outside from my teacher to hear this
from an anti missionary and a guy that was very well you know
he's learning. So it it confirmed everything
that that I was done and but that went on.
It was all sealed and that that from that moment on it was just

(01:06:12):
an alternative back. Well, this is quite interesting.
This week I had the opportunity to interview Richard Cortez of
FOTW, a former messianic pastor who converted to Judaism.
It was a rather powerful interview, quite insightful,
really good interview. We got into some really good
topics. The interview went quite long.
We went over two hours. And so I'm breaking it into two

(01:06:33):
portions. You'll get the first portion one
week and the second the following week.
So just be four more and this isa really good interview and make
sure you like and subscribe. Follow the podcast on Spotify
and YouTube. Join the Facebook group and join
the discussion. And also subscribe to Jesus the
Jew within judaism.com to check out the blog.

(01:06:54):
I look forward to seeing you on this podcast and the falling
Part 2 of this Thank you for tuning into the Pulling Threads
podcast.