The podcast episode commenced with Richard Cortes and Jeramiah Giehl providing introductions. Jeramiah presented the Pulling the Thread podcast and delved into Richard's background, emphasizing his role as the founder of Foundation of the Word, a previous Messianic congregation that later embraced Judaism. Richard then shared his personal journey, recounting his initial exposure to Hasidic Judaism in New York City and subsequent encounter with Christianity in Puerto Rico. He discussed his reconnection with religion as an adult and his involvement with the Assemblies of God, which ultimately prompted him to explore the teachings of the Church Fathers and pursue leadership within the church.
Richard Cortes recounted his path toward Judaism, which involved locating a synagogue and dedicating two years to study under an Israeli rabbi. He detailed the challenges associated with establishing infrastructure and living conditions in Northeast Arizona, including the acquisition of a septic system, water supply, and the construction of his mother's retirement residence. He also highlighted the difficulties of building on clay-rich terrain and contrasted the region's weather conditions with those of the valley, which were more suitable for camping. In summary, Richard's experiences underscored the significance of adapting to unfamiliar environments and acquiring new skills when navigating uncharted territory.
Jeramiah and Richard delved into the origins and mission of their organization, which aimed to transition people from church settings to Torah-based practices. They clarified that their objective was never to convert Jews but rather to facilitate an understanding and practice of Messianic Judaism among individuals. The conversation revolved around the label of "Messianic Judaism" and its potential for misinterpretation, as many of their members were Gentiles who had not converted to Judaism.
They reflected on their decade-long involvement in the movement, their interactions with fellow educators and organizations, and the controversies surrounding their recent embrace of Judaism, including the criticism they faced for identifying as Messianic Jews.
The discussion also touched upon the significance of studying Hebrew and comprehending the cultural context intertwined with the language. They explored the limitations of relying solely on concordances and the potential for misunderstandings when interpreting Hebrew through a Christological lens. Richard shared his personal journey of transitioning from Messianic Judaism to mainstream Judaism and his decision to cease teaching the New Testament. They also emphasized the importance of questioning one's beliefs and pursuing knowledge, even if it entails challenging deeply ingrained convictions.
Keywords: Hebrew, Judaism, Jesus, Movement, Arizona, Torah, Congregation, Christianity, Gentiles, Conversion, My Life, Synagogue, Christians, Jews, Antisemitism, AntiJudaism, Messianic Judaism, Hebrew Roots, Antimissionary,
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
All right, so this week we're starting the second part of the
two-part series with Richard Cortez, the leader of FOTWA,
former messianic pastor who converted to Judaism and is now
leading a Torah Education Centerin Show Low, AZ.
Be sure to tune in and afterwards make sure to like and
subscribe and follow on all channels that we are available
(00:30):
everywhere that you podcast and please follow on Spotify and
YouTube. Join the Facebook group and join
the discretion and subscribe to the blog and subscribe at Jesus
the Jew within judaism.com. Make sure you plug in, make
comments and get involved. I look forward to hearing from
you guys and enjoy this episode.Thank you for tuning into the
(00:52):
Pulling The Threads podcast. So the people that ended up
staying in here, I I advise them.
That me and my wife were planning on converting, but that
was just me and my wife FOTW would you know Again, at that
point I really didn't know whereFOTW was going to play a role.
(01:12):
I honestly I didn't know. I you you know these questions
are hard to to to answer becauseI'm going moment by moment.
I catch you not every day. I have no idea whether we were
coming or we were going. For a whole year we were almost
that way where I didn't even know.
I thought I was going to close the doors, to be honest with
(01:34):
you. I said we're going to just shut
the house and I'm just going to move to Phoenix and I'm going to
go join the Haba. That's it.
And my life will be so much easier.
I don't have to deal with this nonsense.
But the people that were here, the people that remain, really
wanted to continue learning and and.
So it took us a while. It took us a while to kind of
(01:54):
figure out what was the role FOTW.
And it wasn't until like maybe four or five months ago that we
realized what the role was. And and it was to become a
platform here in the mountain, you know, not necessarily a
shul, because I couldn't call myself a shul.
I was in a convert at that time.It's a different order.
You see what I mean? Like I cannot.
(02:16):
I cannot call myself a rabbi anymore.
Or, or you know what I mean? Or a pastor.
I'm definitely not a pastor. You know what I mean?
So I was trying to figure out where is my role now?
Like, you know, I went from being up here in the messianic
movement, and now I switch orders and I'm back in the
bottom. But I have a congregation still.
It was very conflicting, very confusing at this very moment.
(02:39):
And it was at that time that we decided that me and my wife and
I decided we were going to convert.
And so I spoke to the Habat and the Habat in Scottsdale and the
the leader there, Yosi Levator. You know, we had a really good
conversation, a really good conversation.
(03:00):
I was involved with the Habat ofEast Valley for a little bit.
I attended the one down there. I didn't go to the one in
Scottsdale. But Scottsdale's pretty small,
actually. I've never been to the one in
these, but most of these habats are very small either way.
But. What's interesting is in this
conversation he gave me Michael Skolbach's number.
(03:21):
So I try to call Michael Skolbach.
And of course, you know, MichaelSkolbach is a rabbi.
He's out from Outreach Judaism, but he's in.
He's out of Canada. And he's always traveling all
over the world. But, you know, he's more like a
Kirup rabbi. And I think that, you know, at
this point I was like, you know what I'm.
(03:41):
I I'm, I'm just going to, I'm going to continue looking in
Phoenix to find out where and how we can do this, because
that's the problem. It's Kabbat really doesn't know
what to do with people when it comes to conversion, especially
with boys. I mean their their main focus is
Jews who are, you know, who are gone astray and they're trying
to bring him back in, but they really don't like the deal with
Gentiles for the most part. So that was kind of like a shot
(04:04):
there. So I ended up finding Orzion.
And Orzion had, I'm sorry, let me rewind.
I ended up finding online A JU, which is American Jewish
University, is out of California.
Actually, yeah, I think they're in LA and they are very, very
reputable. I thought about going there.
(04:24):
Yeah, they're very reputable organization, actually
university. You can go there for your
undergraduate and rabbinic studies.
So a JU had a. Conversion program and that it
was online. So that was another thing.
I couldn't leave this place. I'm married to this place
especially now. I cannot leave And they they
(04:47):
were the ones that actually introduced me to artsy on
because one of the sponsoring rabbis and there was Rabbi Green
from artsy on and I was really excited.
OK great. So I can do something online.
It's still traditional the storeout here to Overlaw and all that
kind of good stuff and. Anyway, I was liking what I was
hearing so far and contact Orzion and the rabbi was really,
(05:08):
really amazing. Really good.
And that's how this process started.
So in the process of the conversion and building that
relation with Rabbi Green, that's when he helped me to land
this place. Logistically, like, what am I?
I can't be a shul. I don't qualify for a shul.
(05:29):
So what am I? And that's when he suggested,
you know, you got a really good falling up there.
You need to be a platform in themountains to welcome people from
first of all, Jews who are out there who are not observant for
one and for Noa Heights who are coming out of the church and
they need a place to come. So why don't you make it a
(05:51):
Learning Center. There will be a Learning Center
where abate me, Josh, basically.In more of a platform to invite
those who are from different walks of Judaism basically and
for those who are not observant.And that ended up being a
blessing. I got to tell you we ended up
finding who we are. I have to end up changing all my
paperwork. I have to contact my attorneys.
(06:14):
I have to change our name and you know under our government
because we are we are legal entity have to do all that mess.
Pay all the fees for that Again,it's just it was crazy.
It was. It was.
It's been a tough year. Doing this whole transition.
And so we became officially FLTW, became a Torah Learning
(06:35):
Center, no longer a messianic synagogue or anything like that.
And so during that process of doing this, of us going through
the conversion, I was sharing with everybody in here the
things that I was learning a JUUand I was introducing it in our
Torah portion as well. So people were really moved by
(06:57):
what we were doing and what we were learning and they were, you
know, asking and inquiring aboutexperience so far and everything
and what not. And little by little just family
started coming up to and say heyRichard, we want to convert, how
do we do it? You know, like like it, it it,
it was just amazing, Jeremiah, because they really revealed the
(07:18):
position, our position. It's to facilitate because you
know, you probably can have testified to this when you
coming out of the maceionic movement or out of the church,
it doesn't matter. Coming into Judaism can be a
very, very scary and intimidating process because you
don't know that's the whole thing.
You don't. There's once you get it.
Once you get it though, it's very refreshing.
(07:40):
Oh yeah, once you get it. So, like, I don't know what your
experience in Christianity was, but, well, you came from
Assemblies of God. So do you remember, like
basically worship service was a concert.
You know, the preaching, the altar calls, the gifts of
spirit. It's just very performative
thing, the beauty of a traditional tourist service.
(08:04):
There is no performance. There is no instrumentation.
It's not, you know, a performance to make me feel
good. It's literally an offering where
you're giving to God something that's beautiful.
I found that that a quiet service without instrumentation
where I'm praying these ancient prayers that have being prayed
(08:27):
around the world for, you know, thousands of years to be a
beautiful thing versus I'm dancing and shouting and people
falling out and all that kind ofwild stuff.
Yeah, the concert, basically. Yeah.
You know, in the pony show, essentially.
Yeah. But yeah it was it it it's the
experience and what we were experiencing in here and it just
(08:50):
the families were really moved by it I guess.
And and little by little we juststart getting different families
asking how do we convert becausewe're afraid you know it it
again because if we coming out most of these people come back
from an evangelical background so.
Coming to Judaism can be again, it can be intimidating because
(09:12):
you don't know that's if you don't know, it can be
intimidating because you got thewhole saying.
The rabbis turn you down, all these different things.
You know, the Jews are really, you know they they're not
friendly. You know, so all this imaginary
things that they're in people's mind that they're wonders in
people's mind they they're they're afraid of the rejection.
So we became somewhat of again aplatform and an anchor to where
(09:35):
they can okay. We got to lead now.
We got these people that we know.
They got a foot in, oh, we we definitely want to know because
we, we, we, we love to, but we're afraid basically.
So little by little, just families just started coming up
to us and saying we want to, we want to, we want to convert.
Now here's the interesting thing.
I got a family that was watchingus from Utah, the state of Utah.
(10:00):
They ended up moving from Utah to this region right here just
to come and join us. To be a part of this and the
whole the whole entire family converted with us as well.
So it that's how it it just it was really, really amazing.
It was just like miracles. The people.
I was just getting phone calls from different people and saying
(10:21):
hey we we heard that you're converting and what is that
like? That was the questions that I
was getting. What is that like you know did
they turn you down that you did they turn you down.
Did they do this? Did they do that?
And I say, you know, there's some elements of that that is
true. It wasn't easy coming to Judius.
It wasn't necessarily like, hey,sure, come on in.
I mean, there was a little bit of a resistance, nothing like
(10:43):
orthodoxy, but there was some resistance there, at least where
I came from it was a bit of okay.
Well, we're going to test you out and see if what you made-up
sort of to speak, even though they didn't overtly said that,
but you could see it. So it took, it took about
probably six months or so. For A JU and Rabbi Greene to
(11:06):
really be more open to me. Now, here's the caveat with that
too. So at this moment in Phoenix,
and I'm probably sure you heard of this, Phoenix is going
through a lockdown in conversions during this time
because of the the scandal that took place at Habat with their
(11:27):
missionaries that went on the cover as Habat leaders.
And I don't know if you heard ofthat.
That was a big scandal in Phoenix about six months or a
year ago when missionaries went undercover as leaders of Abad.
Oh yeah, they were. They were dressed like
Hassidims. It was one guy with his son.
They were doing Britain Milat. I mean, it's crazy.
(11:50):
You know what these guys were doing?
These guys were converting people.
They wanted to convert. They were charging $30,000.
They were pocketing the money. Wow.
And these are missionaries, may I remind you, that's the whole
thing. The missionary, they were just
trying to convert these people, so it's crazy.
So anyway, Phoenix was they got caught.
(12:12):
Kabat got them, they got caught.So now every Jewish assembly,
every Jewish synagogue in Phoenix is in lockdown high
alert because now they think that everybody that's trying to
come into the doors is a what? A missionary.
So I was coming in during that time, which was very difficult
(12:32):
is what I'm trying to tell you. So it took a little bit for them
to open up and for, you know, for me to show them that I was
genuine, that I was not trying to mechanize anybody.
So during that time was a littlebit tougher.
So but yeah, it'd be it, it it it all worked out.
We we ended up proving ourselves, of course.
And that's when more family started saying, you know what,
(12:55):
we like, what we're hearing. We want to be a part of what
this is. We want to even though I was
telling people you don't have toconvert, you can remain a no
height if you want. But they they wanted this and it
was just basically I walked whatwe were teaching, how we were
walking. Another thing that I was doing
is that right after after Shabbat service I was doing some
(13:17):
mussar teachings and mussar was really amazing.
Mussar. I think mussar really did a lot
of it. They love the mussar.
They love the and and they were all being challenged with
MOSSART you know character building and I started bringing
literatures from you know like off the outpouring of of the
soul. It's one of them and a lot of
(13:40):
the MOSSART groups and that are obviously orthodox but it it it
was just like wow it was life giving.
So every week we will meet, people will come and they were
they will share their experience.
Hey, I was challenged this week with this or that.
And I was reading what you were teaching on the mussar book, and
I put it to practice. And guess what, Richard?
This is amazing. I'm actually getting answers.
(14:01):
We have marriages that were falling apart here.
They ended up being restored. And we were not even doing that
intentionally. That's The funny thing about
it's not like okay sit down and have a marriage council.
We're just sitting teaching mussar and they listen to this
and they're like, whoa, they're putting into practice.
So much of this was. Not much.
All of it was Sasha. You know, it's just the whole
(14:23):
thing. People just became in love with
Judaism and they said, you know what, we want to go on board
with you. We want to follow what you're
doing. You know, we see the the
validity, what you're doing. We see the changes that it's
making in our lives and we see the changes that it's making on
you. They said, and they they just
all jumped the wagon. They said we're going to, we
want to, we want to come and we want to be part of the nation.
(14:45):
So that's really how that kind of evolved.
It just started with classes and.
And after, after classes, after Chavez, we did like I said, we
will gather, we do classes. And really just doing the
classes and showing the Ms. of these classes and the Ms. of the
Torah, the Ms. of Tanak, really all of that did it in essence.
(15:08):
Well, you have an amazing journey, amazing story.
So did you go to the Mikva and Scottsdale for your part of your
conversion? Yeah, so that I went, I went
there and me and my son went to the mikvah because my son, when
we went through conversion, it was right before Rosh Hashanah
2014. It was a beautiful experience
(15:30):
going to the mikvah with my son and him because he, he did how
to fight down Britt. And both of us, you know, we
completed our, you know, everything for conversion and
the Mikva and everything. And so, yeah, we went to the
Mikva there in Scottsdale. It was beautiful experience to
be able to do that with my son. Beautiful experience.
Like, I mean, I'll treasure thatforever, you know, amazing
(15:54):
experience. Yeah.
Wow. So Moosar is a beautiful
tradition though new show the the synagogue I was going to
when I was going through conversion we did.
Moosar definitely love the ethical aspects the meditative
practices. It's it's a beautiful practice
that adds a lot of value that I,you know, I feel like I I carry
(16:16):
with me and and constantly try to be in that kind of state.
So, so that's a beautiful thing.It challenges.
You it really challenges you in a in a very in a very positive
way. And I love the practice of hebbo
de nude as well, which, you know, Mossar connects us with
hebbo de nude. And it's, you know, you know, in
(16:39):
Jewish, you know that in Jewish prayers we got keva, which is,
you know, our prayers are, you know, fixed prayers, of course,
they're orderly prayers. Hebo de Nude kind of breaks that
cycle of keva. And now you go from Keva to kind
of, you know, Kavanaugh. And in the Kavanaugh and he
bought the new you really connect with you know her
(16:59):
college battle pool at a very, very personal level and it it
really helps you refocus and challenge really the things that
are within you. So we my wife right now is
actually training as ATM I for Mussar Institute right now to
become a facilitator for Mussar.That's how how valuable and it's
changed her I mean. The change in here has just been
(17:23):
amazing Jeremiah. The change has just been
surreal. You know we hear and for so many
years in Christianity both in Christianity may see any
Judaism. We were trying to find the
change how can we change how canwe change.
And it wasn't until we came to Judaism and found Musar that
really that it it it it just speaks to your soul and it
(17:44):
challenges you again in a very positive way.
And it I really believe that that it it it, it defens your.
Your connection when I closed Battlefield.
But as a Jew it really, really solidifies and identifies more
really what the role of Jew is. You know it it's just really,
really brings it to the surface.So it's been a blessing for all
(18:05):
of us in here. All right.
So when did you guys complete y'all the your conversion and
when did the the members of yourcongregation convert?
Like when did that happen? So actually our official
conversion took place right before the month of elude, the
(18:32):
beginning of elude. That's a good time.
A very good time, yeah, very good time.
And we we did it. We did it as a group together.
That's what's so beautiful. We all decided let's do it
together as a group. Because we were, my wife and I
were already in that process, but we actually waited.
(18:54):
We ended up finishing our program and we waited for the
group to finish their program sothat we can all do this
together. Like I could have converted
probably six months ago, but I Ipostponed my conversion so that
I can do it with the group and it really, I'm glad that I did.
It was very, very emotional, Needless to say.
(19:18):
Welcome to the tribe. Welcome to the family and you
know, mazel tov to you and and all you guys up there and show
low. That's that's amazing.
I mean that's a beautiful experience.
I mean you got to do it with thegroup of people.
For me, it was doing it with my son was, you know, it's it's
something all treasure forever. It's a beautiful thing.
(19:38):
So, you know now that you're here, I mean it's a new year.
Rosh Hashanah started, you know,last Rosh Hashanah.
So full year you've transitionedhere.
I'm going to want to check in, you know next Rosh Hashanah and
see what it's been like since, you know, between now and then
(19:58):
but quite the experience. So how do you look at?
I want to ask you a couple things about so you were in the
Assemblies of God, which means they believe in the gifts of the
Spirit, speaking in tongues, apostles and prophets.
How do you make sense of, I mean, you saw people speaking in
(20:19):
tongues, people laying on their hands claiming there was
healing. Yeah, I I've never seen a true
miracle with with any of the laying on hands.
Maybe psychosomatic healing, Buthow do you make sense of that
fervent belief that there's spiritual gifts?
(20:40):
I'll be it in the context of intense worship experiences,
intense altar calls, human driven action.
But what do you make sense of your experience there, looking
back now? Well, well, to be honest with
you, even though I was involved in the Assemblies of God, that
(21:02):
was one of the things that I always had an issue with, to be
honest with you or theologicallyspeaking.
I never saw eye to eye when it came to that only because even
back then. I remember being surrounded by
people who were, quote UN quote,receiving the gift of the
spirit. And I always been a very logical
(21:26):
person. Like, I like to hear logic.
Logic is a big part of of who I am.
So I would ask them, what was your experience when you were
speaking in tongues and what were you saying right away?
And of course the answer that they gave me was just was just
wasn't satisfactory. So it it was, you know a lot of
(21:48):
them tell me that they didn't know what they were speaking.
So I was like, well, that to me was a problem because he was
supposed to know what you're saying you could be cursing God.
Even Paul said that, by the way.So I I never never felt
comfortable around it and never really believed in it even with
the healing and everything. And that was just one of those
things that I. That's why as a matter of fact,
(22:09):
we we we ended up leaving the assemblies.
A guy went to Southern Baptist for that reason.
Now the Southern Baptists are completely opposite.
They don't believe in none of this nonsense.
And that's why I felt more more at home sorted to speak only
because I didn't have to deal with that.
But you know, Southern Baptist support has their own issues as
well. But that I to affirm to you I
(22:33):
never felt comfortable, which isthe reason why I left it.
You know, I, I we ended up goingSouthern Baptist and within the
Southern Baptist Association, ofcourse, theologically I again,
this is what I was in my search like.
I knew I didn't fit in Christianity and I knew that
when I felt what I was young, when I was young, was absolutely
(22:54):
true. Because now as an adult and
looking at this in a more objective way and be more open,
more receptive to listening to what they have to say and
logically hear what they have tosay.
It still did not sit well with my Nishima.
And you know, point being taken is that you know that that's
(23:15):
what Hashem used to Get Me Out of it, you know, and bring me
into macianic. As crazy as that sound, bring me
to the macianics to leave as a transitional point, like, you
know, trying to bring you through now as a Jew, like all
of our souls were at Mount Sinai.
Mount Sinai is the giving of thelaw.
So my big question with all the the spirit stuff within
(23:37):
Christianity is why do people filled with the spirit not
compelled to follow the laws of God?
If it's the spirit of God, why do they live lives in
contradiction to the laws of God?
Therefore what kind of spirit are they being filled with is
the big question for me. But you know, I, I, you know it
it, it doesn't seem to fully track.
(24:00):
You mentioned on something the anti that I'm going to kind of
touch on. The anti Judaism of the New
Testament actually manifest as anti-Semitism at its core.
Now within the Messianic movement they try to say skew
replacement theology. Yes, they say you're a completed
(24:20):
Jew if you're in Jesus, which isreplacement theology.
I do not accept their convolutedway of saying, oh, we don't, we
don't believe in replacement theology, but you're not a
completed Jew unless you believein Jesus.
But they're telling Gentiles whoare.
You know, a lot of times they'retelling this to Gentiles who are
playing dress up. I'll get there in a minute.
(24:42):
But they're they're they're telling them that you have to,
you know, believe in Jesus to bea completed Jew yet not offering
conversion to those Gentiles. Now, I read a book and the
reason I said dress up. Rabbi Carol Harris Shapiro wrote
a book on Messianic Judaism. She's like I I think she was a
reformed rabbi and she refers tomost of the messianic movement
(25:08):
as Gentiles playing dress up or cross dressing dressing up in
the name of the cross to convertpeople I find very offensive.
You know I mentioned that the Tovia singer is it's very
offensive the the gentiles playing dress up.
If you're studying Torah and you're dressing this way.
(25:31):
If you believe it then you should become a Jew and stop
playing dress up. I mean it's like my thing but
the anti Judaism of the New Testament, all the places that
were inserted into the text. I say inserted because it
probably wasn't there originally, where it says
statements about the Jews condemning the Jews for somehow
(25:57):
convincing the Roman government to crucify Jesus for wanting to
be king of the Jews. You know, like somehow putting
that blame on the Jews is the foundation of Christian
antijudaism and it goes into Messianic Judaism.
The statement completed Jew is an antijudaism.
It is antisemitism at its core. It is a disgusting statement,
(26:22):
but it goes back to Jesus is everything.
He replaces the Torah, thereforethe Torah is no longer valid.
Though they say he told us to fulfill Torah.
It's the most convoluted thing ever.
I mean, how do you grapple with the the antijudaism of the New
Testament and it's manifestations and Messianic
(26:42):
Judaism? Right and well it's it's it's
it's it's very hard to grapple with that and the the the
problem I think with that is that and I I you know.
I can't speak for for other people.
I can only speak from where I was at at one point is that it
really becomes very subtle. Like a lot of these things, you
(27:03):
really technically never pick upon it.
Like for instance, how the New Testament obviously
mischaracterizes the Jews. It's something that you start
seeing once you come to Judaism,but if you're coming from
Christianity, it's very subtle. You will never see it.
And I don't really believe technically a lot of these
(27:24):
people. Personally, I don't think they
see it. In other words, they being
taught how to hate Jews without them not knowing it.
That's the problem. But they're told they're loving
Israel and they're loving Jews while they're doing it, which is
the most deceptive thing about it.
Yes, that's. But that's that's really the
scary part is that a lot of these evangelicals really have
(27:45):
no idea. That the the Christian Bible
essentially it's teaching them how to hate.
Now that statement right there, if you if I were to say that
statement in a church today, I will be called you know
obviously a heretic or you know this is sacrilege.
We don't hate we are people of love.
(28:07):
But because it is so subtle, that's the danger.
It's so subtle that you cannot see it.
I know for me personally, I never saw it until I started
digging more into Judaism. Then you can start picking up
and stuff like that. But that's the dangerous part
about it. And yes, they're supporters of
Israel. We love Israel.
(28:27):
We love the Jewish people. And and that's that's the danger
you see, it's it's it's coming very, very in a very deceitful
manner. So my heart goes out to them.
I you know, I believe that in inthe time.
I mean we see this in the prophecy, what you know?
Zechariah and Jeremiah, time is going to come from the Gentiles
are going, is not going to awaken.
They're going to see this. But it it it, it is, it's very
(28:51):
it's so dangerous. And here's another thing with
the with the Christian Bible too, which I, I testify for sure
what can you fish out of that You got for instance, and this
is what I presented to the people who are here.
This is what's so compliating about it.
So on the one hand, you have yes, you saying.
That the Pharisees and the teachers, you know, they sit in
(29:12):
Moses, whatever they tell you todo that they do.
You know what I mean? But then in other gospels, it
seems like he's calling them sons of devils.
And and you know what I mean? Like it, the, the narrative, it
just doesn't flow. So it's one of those things
where this is part of the reasonwhy I stopped teaching it.
People ask me, well, why don't you just teach the good stuff?
(29:35):
So why would I want to teach thegood stuff?
What good stuff. And just go to Torre.
I mean, Torres, where you shouldgo like.
Absolutely. And not to mention, well, if I
do that, then I'm going to be accused for handpicking what I
want to hear from the gospel yousee because now there's the flip
side of that and then let's not even talk about Paul.
We're not even getting into Paul.
(29:55):
But you know, I mean it's it's it's this is my point is that
it's not it doesn't flow. So I.
I firm with you. I I generally believe that the
church fathers inserted a lot ofstuff in there as a matter of
fact that you probably know thisthe narrative and you know you
got to sign up the gospel. You got the Gospel John.
So in the Gospel John which is the most popular scripture that
(30:18):
you always going to hear in the church and that is of the woman
who gets commit, who gets caughtcommitting adultery which when
you come to Torah you start reading that and it makes no
sense. So they take her out, right?
You know the narrative. They bring her out.
And and of course, here comes, Gee, you know, this shoe comes
to save her. And whoever is the coming of no
(30:38):
sin may cast the first stone. Well, as it turns out, even
Christian scholars today confer that none of that existed.
None of that. You're going to find the
original Greek. It was all inserted afterwards.
No Marcian invented that percopy, and it was inserted in
22 different places in the earlymanuscripts until they settled
(31:01):
on where it's at now. So that was actually a parable
invented by Marcian, who by the way the Gospel of John was first
widely distributed by the Marcianite community who Marcian
wrote the first gospel and the first collection of falling
epistles that he found. And after that then we start
(31:22):
having the epistles and gospel gospel.
So there's a whole lot of questions there.
Gospel of John was probably invented by the followers of
Marcianite and therefore like that.
That's just a fabrication. Just knock that one to the side.
The Synoptics have so many problems that you touched on,
(31:43):
but so. You can see that you could see
it so clearly. You know and and.
In in this particular passage, which makes perfect sense and
Marcian would do this, you see. And again it's very subtle.
This is the subtle part. I never saw this, but what what
do we see there? The Jews are going to condemn
(32:05):
this woman and kill her and lo behold, now comes Jesus, the new
covenant and now he's going to save her.
You see, it's a it's a the Pharisees versus Jesus.
And Jesus wins, by the way. You see, so this is the kind of
stuff that again, it's it's verysubtle.
Most people would never see it because they focusing on the
(32:27):
fact that she got saved. Now you and I both know from a
Torah perspective, this is completely my sugar.
No Ferrisi would I've ever done that because you need witnesses.
The witnesses are not even there.
The guy that should come in, again, there's so many.
Obviously whoever did this does not know Torah.
This is the point, you see. So you know that this is
completely shaken is my point. So it it it's again, this is
(32:50):
where I I, I see that why followa book that is inconsistent?
Why follow a book that doesn't that contradicts itself by the
way. And yeah, this is one of the
things that I started sharing with the group and and we
starting to see as a group. We starting to see a lot of
these things that people never saw before.
And again, that being right there, that that part in the
(33:12):
gospel who are what, who would you ever conclude that that's an
antisemitic chapter right there?Like if you were to read that if
you're in the church, you would never say, you know what this,
this chapter is teaching me how to hate the Jews.
You would never pick that up. You would never pick that up
when punches. Pilot is trying to save Jesus
(33:34):
and the Jews are trying to crucify him.
You will never conclude that. But you see again, it's all
embedded in the story. So people become haters of Jews
and haters of Judaism. There's no way you can possibly
read the Christian Bible and have a love for the Jews.
There's just no possible way. And and this is really the
problem that we're dealing with today, Most of these people who
(33:56):
are antisemitic today, they antisemitic because they have no
idea that their own Bible is teaching them hate.
And it's a it's a big problem. Well, it's a huge problem.
I mean, starting in 2016, 2015, there was a lot of synagogue
(34:17):
shootings. I was on the the Security
Council at my synagogue. We've had to implement all kind
of security protocols, fences, armed guards, a lot of things
because of the current culture. I'm going to touch on this that
has based in Christian Zionism and evangelicalism, which got
(34:43):
which this, you know, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.
But politically, the evangelicalsupport of Christian Zionism has
led to, you know, the political statement that Jerusalem is the
capital of Israel, which for Jews is always we don't need a
political party to tell us it doesn't.
(35:03):
That's irrelevant for us, it is the capital.
So, but within this movement, the problem of antisemitism
within Christian Zionism becauseof apocalypticism, they're
praying for the demise of the Jews in this end time battle
with Islam because then Jesus will come.
(35:24):
And so this is the thing about Christian Zionism.
We love Israel. We support Israel.
We want to, you know, support the building of the Third
Temple. Yeah but it's the story of like
there's a guy at the top of the mountain and the rattlesnake is
saying take me down the mountain.
It's freezing. I I I don't want to go down the
mountain but I won't bite you and and you could he's saying
(35:47):
like I'm your friend I won't bite you.
Eventually convinces the person to take them.
They take them down. As soon as they put them down
boom rattlesnake bites them. That's the thing of like oh,
they love Israel but they don't love Israel for the sake of
Israel. They love Israel for the sake of
the end times battle where Jesuscomes to save.
(36:07):
The Jews are being slaughtered by Islam according to their
intime prophecy and so their support of Christian Zionism and
the politics behind it is there's embedded antijudaism in
that you need Jesus and Jesus isgoing to save from this intime
battle. It all comes back to the
antijudaism and the New Testament.
(36:29):
So I become uncomfortable with what we support Israel.
Well do you support Jews for Jews and Israel for you know
like for Jewish people or Jewishmeans or because you're looking
for this in time battle. And you know one of the things I
I've been talking to a professorin New Testament studies who who
(36:52):
is not a believer, he's into thehistorical critical method about
the concerns about stuff like Waco.
And within the Pentecostal movement there's the Neo
Apostolic Reformation, a group of people who are politically
involved because of they supportIsrael but they also support
Messianic Judaism because they want to convert Jews and it's
(37:15):
it's anti Judaism. And I I have a huge problem with
it. I mean, have you, have you seen
the dangers or of the Christian Zionism where they're
anti-Semitic involvement? Absolutely.
I mean when you look at you knowand for the most part a good
portion of the evangelical, conservative, evangelical
(37:36):
movements to add to what you're saying, other aspect of this is
also that serves the reason why they trying to convert all these
Jews is because this is going tobring back Jesus essentially.
They believe that we need to convert the Jews in order for
(37:59):
Jesus to come back, which is whyyou have so many groups out
there and so many missionaries in Israel today.
You know, aside from the political aspect of, you know,
the Holy Land being the the, the, the capital for the Jews
and their mind is we want to, wewant to speed up the the second
coming of Jesus. And in order to do that we have
to convert all these Jews. And this is, unfortunately, the
(38:21):
stuff that Paul teaches in his letters as well.
And and you know that the, the tactics and the deception that
they use again this is all advocated by Paul.
I mean Paul says in his letters that the gospel is to be preach
and what and pretense are true. So it's it's it's again it's a
(38:41):
got a bifold in here. You know you got the political
aspect of it, but then you got the unfortunately also the
prophetic side of it and the prophetic side of it, and their
in their mind, the prophetic side of it is.
We want, we want to advance that.
So you you got these complicatedideas from all these different
(39:02):
evangelicals in Israel and this is what's giving birth to this
antisemitism and it still comes back to you know, it's the Jews
fault at the end of the day, youknow.
And by the way we have now the medicine to fix them and that
is, you know, we bring, you knowwe bring Jesus to them and and
yeah, it's a it's a mess. It's a.
(39:24):
And it's and it, you know, it's something that I believe you
can't stop with, Tanak said. It's going to happen.
Now here's the thing. Tanak actually speaks the truth.
You and I both know that. And we know that a time is going
to come, what they're going to say.
We have inherited lies for my father's.
You know, the Jews are not the ones that are going to be coming
(39:44):
to the Christians saying we haveinherited lies for my father's.
It's interesting. The Chris says the Gentiles are
the one. Jeremiah 1619 said the Gentile,
the nations will come, not the Jews.
So I find that very, very interesting that one way, you
know even as crazy as things areright now and things are getting
very, very heated. And and I really believe, like
(40:07):
many, even Tovia said it, many the rabbi say we're we're
approaching that messianic age because of a lot of things that
we've seen the awakening for ones of the nations coming.
You know that the conversion rate in Israel right now is at
the highest ever in history. As a matter of fact, they're
turning down people right now because they can, they can
(40:27):
sustain them in these conversionprograms.
And most of these conversion programs come from evangelicals,
you know, So there's something very interesting that even
though it's it's it's it's really confusing out there right
now. And there's so many different
voices that are taking place. We actually finding that there's
a lot more evangelicals who are actually converting to Judaism,
then Judy Jews converting to Christianity.
(40:50):
So of course, Christians will never share those numbers, you
know, But you know what I mean? So they go and they'll they'll
go to Tel Aviv and they'll convert, you know, they'll sit
down, they'll convert an unbelievable atheist, for
instance, who's never studied, by the way.
I mean these guys are not, you know, these missionaries are not
converting guys from the mirror.You know, they they're, you
(41:14):
know, and but they don't share that with you.
They all, we don't. Look how many hundreds of Jews
came and they converted, You know, yeah, you go to Tel Aviv
and you get all these people whonever, you know, who don't know
to knock. They're going to convert, of
course. But if it's interesting, if you
look at the conversion rate in Israel from the Christians who
are becoming Jews, these guys are coming from seminary school.
(41:35):
These guys are theologians, these guys who are study.
So the difference is you got ones who are coming in the up
and the other ones who are turning and coming to Jesus at
the lowest level. It's a it's an interesting ratio
there. So you know it's it's it's I
believe it's all part of you know what Hashem is doing in
these last days. And I think we're very fortunate
(41:56):
to to be a part of that to have the I CC you and many others who
are who are doing the same. You know so and now I think the
advantage that for me personallyI think one of the advantage
that we have is that we've been in that world.
You know even me seem black me seem black as a kid who he's a
convert and you know he comes from this world.
You know he was in you know he was Once Upon a time a Muslim.
(42:19):
So he comes from this world as well And and it it we are we are
at a platform. I think we had a platform where
we can reach the demographic right now which the the greater
demographic here is goings. They're coming out of the
church. You know living in a Jewish
community like for instance in an Orthodox community you're so
(42:39):
limited what you can do. You know you stuck in there.
You stuck in the air roof basically.
And you know your audience what who's your audience in the air
roof. Jews.
Jews, you know account for less than 7% worldwide.
So think about it. You know most of the work is
done right now. Most of the work it's dealing
with the goings, it's dealing with the people who are coming
(43:00):
out of the church is dealing with people who are coming out
of Macy and Judaism. So I think that we find
ourselves in a very unique position is what I'm saying
because now that we are in Judaism, we we we can be that
voice for these people who otherwise will never come
because the intimidating, the intimidation of, you know, of
Judaism, so. Yeah, that's something.
(43:22):
That's something I'm trying to do here.
You know you're there's another messianic pastor that that has
been on a few times that a former messianic pastor.
You know, I was involved with the, you know, I went to Bible
college, was involved in ministry, was involved in the
Messianic movement. I don't know.
(43:42):
When you look at Christian origins and unbiased, you know,
the the historical critical method, the history of
Christianity invalidates Christianity if you look at it.
And the problem for Christianityis that Judaism still exists.
So the impetus to convert Jews is like this thing that is
(44:06):
saying like we are just a manmade religion is a problem.
So there is an impetus to like try to get that eyesore out.
So that's why the, you know, themissionaries try so hard.
You mentioned Paul is the problem and Paul said the thing
that is the juxta, the problem. I become a Jew to the Jew and a
(44:27):
Gentile to the Gentile. Therefore, you're neither
authentically any. And the biggest problem with
Messianic Judaism, the biggest problem is Jews pretending to be
Jews to convert Jews, Gentiles pretending to be Jews to convert
Jews. But there are the authentic, the
Gentiles who want to get back tothe Jewish roots of
(44:50):
Christianity. They need to go to Judaism.
The source you know used to whenyou were young, you experienced
a Jewish experience and it was authentic.
Therefore, the inauthentic you're able to compare that, but
the idol Jesus makes it hard forit.
(45:10):
You know it. When I when I got married, I
wanted a Jewish wedding and I wanted to raise my kids Jewish.
I didn't want to raise a messianic Jewish.
I just didn't think my my ex, now, my ex, my wife at the time,
would. It would have been okay with it
and so as a means to appease. That's what I chose.
(45:35):
But I I don't feel I was as attached to that because for me,
when I was a child, I read the Tanak twice through read the New
Testament once, but the Tanak for me was like, okay, this
makes sense. And then the New Testament I was
just like there's a lot of things that just doesn't gel.
It contradicts. I need to go back to this and my
(45:56):
problem always with. When I was a Joe's witness, when
I was a Christian, when I was messianic, I'm like, this
doesn't jibe with. It's not.
And so for me, you know, lookingat the authentic, it was good
that I had that experience firstbecause all this other stuff,
it's like I felt like I had to go through it so that I could
understand and answer the questions.
(46:19):
But, you know, I try, you know, through my, you know, my YouTube
channel here and and my, you know, blog.
I'm trying to. Disseminate information to help
people on the journey in the same path.
You know, when I was in Messianic Judaism, my only
understanding was like the original was Jewish Christians
(46:40):
should get back to Judaism. And the more I realized
Messianic Judaism wasn't that I was like, well, I I should be
Jewish. And that's, you know.
Whether or not a person be is a Noah hide or that's their
personal choice, My, you know, my goal isn't to make Christians
Jewish, it's just to disseminateproper information.
(47:05):
You know, like Tovia Singer said.
You know, proselytizing isn't necessarily a bad thing because
if you're giving good information, it's good.
It's the deceptive tactics. It's playing dress up to
convert. It's the the veiled antijudaism
of. The completed Jew, the stuff
like that. So looking back at your
(47:27):
experience to kind of summarize it, you know, how do you look at
all that now and what would you tell your younger self like your
process? Wow.
Looking back now if I would havehad this information say 2020
(47:51):
years ago I will say probably you know get in your car and
squeal tires out of there as quick as you can and that's what
refund and and and and really and it and it most polite way I
want to refund back for for all the tiding that I gave and and
(48:15):
yeah it's it's you know I I often try not to think about
that only because I don't want to fall into anger and it it
easily could happen easily you can you you can become very very
just bitter only because all theyears that you wasted all the
(48:37):
years that you you know you comeout of the church and you would
receive in the church right. You come to Maciana Judy's and
you're like wow this is the authentic way now these guys are
the true guys man. Wow.
And then to find out that these guys all along, we're just
plain, plain Jewish essentially.It it's so it's so easily you
(49:00):
can you can easily. And I actually, by the way I've
seen this. I seen people in this movement
literally become atheist after their experience of Macy
anachitism. They gave up on religion
altogether. It's only a few people that I
know that way. But it it can easily happen.
So I try not to meditate too much and stuff like that.
(49:22):
I try to look and musar teaches me this.
I just look at things in a positive way.
It was a learning curve. And you learn and now you can,
you can meet people that are there.
You can meet people who are coming out who are very, very
angry at this point. They were already angry when
they came out of the church. And you know this the Maciana
(49:42):
movement is just, it's a mixed batch of angry people from
different denominations. And now with with this coming in
life, it it just it just and I think that's what's happening.
I think people in the Macianic movement are really just afraid
because they were already lied to.
And I think we dealing with a lot of emotions right now with
(50:04):
serious emotions right now. And I think this is the reason
why you see you feel that backlash coming at you.
There might be some essence of antisemitism there, but I think
there's more fear than anything because again, they don't know
now what's true. You know, they they thought Once
Upon a time that Christianity was true.
They really believe that MacianaJudaism was it.
(50:28):
And now to find out that this isa lie to like where do you go?
So you you know what I mean? I think this, you know, it's
it's just it's really hard to decipher in the Maciana
movement, who really is antisemitic and who is just
really acting out of emotions iswhat I'm saying and I.
Think and you have the you have the idol Jesus kind of in there
(50:51):
too. So it's the it's the it's those
two things plus the idol of Jesus.
It's hard to give up the idol. That's why I try to have a
holistic approach and, you know,acknowledge that, you know, I've
had people who become atheist onmy channel because, you know,
it's just dealing with the humanemotion of.
(51:13):
Right. Coming to terms with it was all
a lie and it's a loss. And you know, it's got to be
okay to deal with those feelingsand those emotions, right?
Right. And there's got to be a place.
And I I really believe there's this.
I really believe personally withall my heart and all my Nishama
that this is where people like yourself and others who are
(51:35):
coming out of this to be to be that, that support, to be that
team, to be that again, you needthat because again, it's really
emotionally can disturb you in so many different ways and not
just emotion, but spiritually aswell.
And you find yourself that all your life you've been lied to.
And now who, I mean, how do I know that you're bleeding in the
(51:56):
right way. And that's kind of a little bit
of what we got in here, to be honest with you initially when
we broke the news to people. I can see that in people.
I can see the the the hopelessness in their face and
fear more than anything fear. So we we we really dealing with
(52:17):
so many different again different emotions and the yeah,
the idol plays a role because all their life they've been told
that if they don't accept this idol they're going to perish in
hell. So you know that's still echoing
in their minds. Even when they came to Macy and
Judaism that never went away. It was still, I wouldn't admit
it. So now I think what's happening
is that they actually have to face the reality.
(52:38):
The A, the man that you thought was going to save you is
actually not going to save you. So there's a great feeling.
There's a great feeling that like, OK, you mean to tell me
that I'm the one responsible. You see that's.
And you know, all your life you've been taught there's
nothing that you can possibly doto save yourself.
(52:59):
Yeah. So so now you.
Well, and to come to a place like within Judaism, you know,
we, we, we we elevate the Sadiq,the righteous person.
Right. I mean the the goal of moose
art, you know, is to become an ethical person.
So, I mean, it's different, you know, salvation for the
(53:20):
Christian is personal, whereas salvation for the Jewish
national, right. The, you know, it's it's a
different concept. I realized that we've been going
for about two hours. So I want to kind of bring it
down. I'm going to have to break this
into two different ones, which is fine.
I want to. I want to leave it on this last
(53:41):
kind of question and note. So within Judaism, Jesus has no
place. And as far as history, he's a
marginal Jew. Judaism has no place for a
single rabbi. What do you make of the
historical Jesus? Do you believe he is a person or
a myth? And for you now in FOTW what
(54:02):
role does he play now Well and effort TW he actually plays a
zero role for us right now. He you know he we we tend not to
look back anymore that we're looking forward.
So for us here he means nothing absolutely nothing.
And I, I, I, I can honestly say that for everybody in here
because I, they have voiced thathistorically speaking.
(54:27):
You know, I'm, I'm, I'm really don't have a position on that.
I mean at one hand he could havebeen a rabbi from the Galilee
who, which by the way, historically speaking many Jews
were crucified. Jesus was not the only one, by
the way. And they were crucified for
ideas. They were conducive towards the
(54:50):
Roman Empire being destroyed, the zealots for instance.
So you know, he could have been a rabbi from the Galilee who had
a decent following and he was speaking terminologies.
They were really coming against the empire that time.
And for that he got crucified and Rome then took his persona
(55:11):
and made this new Jesus type of persona that we see today.
There's that one option or he could have been really truly a
false prophet, the the false prophet of due to Army 13,
obviously. So it's kind of hard to pit
point it only. I mean if you basing it on the
gospel, it's kind of hard because you see a Jesus who is
(55:31):
pro Tora, a Jesus who is just a man who says the Father, you
know he all the prayers go to the Father.
We see that element in some of the gospel, but then we see
other elements of the gospel where he deify himself and he
makes it so coequal. So it's kind of hard to decipher
to the whole thing. Where I stand is I really don't
care because he means nothing anymore.
(55:53):
You see what I mean? We here after TW, we waiting for
the true machine, you see? And what?
What Jesus was it really for us?It doesn't matter because it's
not going to change my position and where we're heading is what
I'm saying. Like if I were to find out
tomorrow, hey, as it turns out, Jesus was real and he was a
(56:15):
rabbi from the galley, OK, that's not going to change my
perspective. It's not going to change my
relationship that I have with Judaism today.
Or if I find out that, by the way, he really was teaching
heretical theft and he was making himself coequal with God
and OK, then he's the he's the prophet from Deuteronomy 13.
Either way doesn't make a changefor us because we are embarking
(56:36):
in a journey and we are in the Ms. right now.
We loving the Tanak and we're waiting for the true Mashiya.
And we understand that as as part of being the nation right
now our role is to usher the mashiya.
You know, as you probably know this and every generation of
Masia could have came, but Israel wasn't worthy.
So why? Because Sina hinam, baseless
(57:00):
hatred. So what I'm trying to focus here
at FOTW is in character building.
That's really the the weight of our of our organization right
now let's work on character building because this is one of
the reasons why again, my Shia never came in the generation.
It could have, it could have came in a generation and every
generation there's an opportunity for my Shia.
As you know this in Judaism we teach this.
(57:22):
So I want to instead of looking so much at what Jesus probably
is or isn't, I want to focus in ushering the true machine.
And here that's our focus. Our focus is let's get rid of
baseless hatred. Let's get rid of you know the
bigotry and especially contention amongst brothers and
sisters and and I got a level with you people that come in
(57:43):
here. I had Toby a singer be here this
summer. I had also Rabbi Pink has Taylor
from the Habat and Plantation was here.
Both of these rabbi's gave us such a great great.
I mean they were just like Mama the wing when they saw this
place because they were like, wow, I have never seen a place
where people actually get along this well outside of Judaism.
(58:04):
Because in the in the shoots, you know, people get along and
we argue, but at the end of the day we hug.
But outside of that, this is as a matter of fact, this was such
an impact for them that Rabbi Pink House Taylor has an
organization called the AmericanFake Coalition for the A FC.
We're part of this correlation. Our picture is in the front of
(58:25):
his website like that is the page because this is ideally
what he is trying to accomplish right now.
So we're seeing that there's a change.
Even habad, he's Habad and he's trying to introduce this to the
Habad, basically. So what we're doing here is not,
you know, not trying to, you know, we do dig into the
(58:46):
Veritora. We we do, they get into the
Shuharu, We do follow Halaha. We're learning more Halaha where
we fit in more in the Halaha issues and and and whatnot.
Those are good things, you know,walking as a Jew, keeping cash
to do all these different things.
But none of that matters if we hate each other.
None of that matters if we harboring hatred.
(59:08):
I mean this is basic one-on-one Judaism is what I'm saying, you
know and I think that a lot of times especially coming into
Judaism we can get so wrapped upwith the mits votes and okay how
do I do this Mits vote. How do I do this mits vote
exactly. And and we can get just get so
wrapped up and you know it can be overwhelming.
There's so much that we lose track of really what we need we
(59:31):
should be doing as a as a as A at a basic level I'm saying as a
as a shortage as a foundation. So for us today we're not really
preoccupied with Jesus. We're really just more
preoccupying. How can we make an impact on
Judaism and what we doing in here.
I love it that, you know, again I I converted my Sorti and but
(59:51):
I'm dealing primarily. I'm dealing with Orthodox right
now that's, you know, and and our Halaha is Orthodox for the
most part. And I mean I got Rabbi Greene,
he's he's Conservative. So what I'm trying to do is I'm
trying to bring these these rabbis together, you know, even
in Judaism there's a political issue, as you know.
(01:00:13):
You know and and and and I thinkthat this this is the area where
we want to try to again unite. Because you guess what When a
Nazi comes knocking on our door he's not going to care whether
you're a master T, whether you miss Rocky or whether you
Ashkenazi or whether you're so product you are true at the end
of the day. So I'm, I'm, I.
(01:00:33):
Our heart it really it's more focused on that we don't.
We just really don't focus anymore on the past or on Jesus
or what he was or what he could be or whatever case may be.
We see a bigger picture here right now.
It's a beautiful thing. Sounds like you've had an
amazing journey. I mean, it's been a blessing
here in your story. Thank you.
(01:00:55):
All right. So any final words here for the
audience? And well, I just want to
encourage the audience to reallytake the time to study.
Number one, don't study by yourself.
That can be dangerous. It's it's important for us to be
objective when we come into the scriptures be objective to it
(01:01:16):
and and really take the time to really examine the Christian
Bible verses the phenom. Judaism is a beautiful beautiful
walk. It is it is obviously the the,
the containment of the emesis there and I want to encourage
everybody in the audience to really take that time to to
really explore. Because I will say this, I I
(01:01:38):
forgot to mention I have people that are calling me from the
other side of the country that I've never even heard of before.
One of the things because I get Jewish news is just going
everywhere. So one of the things that I'm
hearing that I I thought is veryinteresting is that since people
have come to this awakening, onething that they say and they're
also the same thing that they they feel a load of the
(01:02:04):
shoulders. They feel freedom.
They when they finally let go ofJesus, it was like cloud, you
know what I mean? Like, like the hardest point is
letting go. But once you let go, there's
freedom. So I will encourage everybody in
your audience to to to trust in God at the end of the day and to
know that you're not alone on this.
(01:02:26):
There's many of us who are coming to this awakening and and
and be a part of that prophecy of Zechariah, age 23, when 10
men from the nation will grab the cloak of a Jew and say we're
here, that God is with you. Be a part of that in these days
so that we can usher the true machine.
And don't be afraid to let go ofJesus.
(01:02:46):
So you made a statement that about not studying alone.
So that was something that Jehovah's Witnesses would say is
that you can't understand the truth on your own without the
society. When you say that, you're
talking about the Tanak within the Jewish community.
(01:03:08):
What exactly are you saying? Because that can be misapplied
and so I wanna situate that proper absolutely.
So you know what I mean when yousaid don't study it by yourself.
It's gonna be depending on the individual, number one, your
level of understanding of Tanak #1.
If you're not very skilled and annoying, Tanak, my
(01:03:29):
recommendation is that you will go obviously to a Jewish rabbi
to help you kind of decipher a lot of these things in The
Tonight because it's very, very important.
Cultural plays a huge role, context plays a huge role,
language plays a huge role, so. Trying to speak Hebrew fluently,
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you speak luntly
(01:03:50):
Hebrew and you can read Hebrew fluently, by all means, all I
would tell you do is go back andread it in Hebrew.
That's that very simple. But I I suspect for the majority
of the people, that's not the case.
And and that not being the case,it's always good to team up with
somebody that you that has been doing this for a while or rabbi
(01:04:11):
who obviously has been doing this all their life.
But you want to definitely surround yourself with people
who kind of know what they're doing.
So yeah, it could be interpretedas, yeah, you don't want to just
depend on somebody. But we're not asking you to go
back to the church for this. We're not asking you to go back
to the Watchtower for this. We're asking you come to Judaism
for this. So, and and that's really the
(01:04:31):
case. It's where you're going to and
if you don't have the ability and the capability to do this by
yourself, because as we can see,the Bible can be interpreted in
many different ways. Yeah, so.
Culture, context and language isimportant in studying any text.
The culture is the container of the traditions.
(01:04:53):
The language I mean. Any language, you know, that
they say just say to translate is to lie.
That is why we study in Hebrew, so we can understand for
ourselves. So you know, very important
things. Well, this has been a very
beneficial talk and I'm thankfulwe got to do this and we got to
touch on this. I like interviewing people
(01:05:15):
who've had an interesting journey, a similar journey.
I feel like Goldilocks and the Three Bears.
I had to try out a bunch of stuff before I found out where I
was supposed to be. But my soul was always here, you
know, at the feed of Mount Sinai.
So it's been a blessing. And yeah, have a good night.
(01:05:38):
And Shawna Tova, since it's a New Year mazel tov for joining
the family. Thank you.
Hopefully we can meet in person.And again, thank you for having
me here on the show. I look forward to more journeys
because as you know, Judaism is a journey.
(01:06:00):
So we'll see where we're going to land.
We know we're going to be in Judaism, but we're we're now
from here, where do we go, You know, So it's it's a good thing.
It's a really, really good thing.
And I'm looking forward to sharing that with you as I go
along on my journey and to hear your journey as well and where
where we are landing. So it'll be a good thing.
(01:06:20):
Well, sounds great. I'm glad we made this
connection. And, you know, onward.
All right, so this week we're starting the second part of the
two-part series with Richard Cortez, the leader of FOTWA,
former messianic pastor who converted to Judaism and is now
leading a Torah Education Centerin Show Low, AZ.
Be sure to tune in and afterwards make sure to like and
subscribe and follow on all channels that we are available
(00:30):
everywhere that you podcast and please follow on Spotify and
YouTube. Join the Facebook group and join
the discretion and subscribe to the blog and subscribe at Jesus
the Jew within judaism.com. Make sure you plug in, make
comments and get involved. I look forward to hearing from
you guys and enjoy this episode.Thank you for tuning into the
(00:52):
Pulling The Threads podcast. So the people that ended up
staying in here, I I advise them.
That me and my wife were planning on converting, but that
was just me and my wife FOTW would you know Again, at that
point I really didn't know whereFOTW was going to play a role.
(01:12):
I honestly I didn't know. I you you know these questions
are hard to to to answer becauseI'm going moment by moment.
I catch you not every day. I have no idea whether we were
coming or we were going. For a whole year we were almost
that way where I didn't even know.
I thought I was going to close the doors, to be honest with
(01:34):
you. I said we're going to just shut
the house and I'm just going to move to Phoenix and I'm going to
go join the Haba. That's it.
And my life will be so much easier.
I don't have to deal with this nonsense.
But the people that were here, the people that remain, really
wanted to continue learning and and.
So it took us a while. It took us a while to kind of
(01:54):
figure out what was the role FOTW.
And it wasn't until like maybe four or five months ago that we
realized what the role was. And and it was to become a
platform here in the mountain, you know, not necessarily a
shul, because I couldn't call myself a shul.
I was in a convert at that time.It's a different order.
You see what I mean? Like I cannot.
(02:16):
I cannot call myself a rabbi anymore.
Or, or you know what I mean? Or a pastor.
I'm definitely not a pastor. You know what I mean?
So I was trying to figure out where is my role now?
Like, you know, I went from being up here in the messianic
movement, and now I switch orders and I'm back in the
bottom. But I have a congregation still.
It was very conflicting, very confusing at this very moment.
(02:39):
And it was at that time that we decided that me and my wife and
I decided we were going to convert.
And so I spoke to the Habat and the Habat in Scottsdale and the
the leader there, Yosi Levator. You know, we had a really good
conversation, a really good conversation.
(03:00):
I was involved with the Habat ofEast Valley for a little bit.
I attended the one down there. I didn't go to the one in
Scottsdale. But Scottsdale's pretty small,
actually. I've never been to the one in
these, but most of these habats are very small either way.
But. What's interesting is in this
conversation he gave me Michael Skolbach's number.
(03:21):
So I try to call Michael Skolbach.
And of course, you know, MichaelSkolbach is a rabbi.
He's out from Outreach Judaism, but he's in.
He's out of Canada. And he's always traveling all
over the world. But, you know, he's more like a
Kirup rabbi. And I think that, you know, at
this point I was like, you know what I'm.
(03:41):
I I'm, I'm just going to, I'm going to continue looking in
Phoenix to find out where and how we can do this, because
that's the problem. It's Kabbat really doesn't know
what to do with people when it comes to conversion, especially
with boys. I mean their their main focus is
Jews who are, you know, who are gone astray and they're trying
to bring him back in, but they really don't like the deal with
Gentiles for the most part. So that was kind of like a shot
(04:04):
there. So I ended up finding Orzion.
And Orzion had, I'm sorry, let me rewind.
I ended up finding online A JU, which is American Jewish
University, is out of California.
Actually, yeah, I think they're in LA and they are very, very
reputable. I thought about going there.
(04:24):
Yeah, they're very reputable organization, actually
university. You can go there for your
undergraduate and rabbinic studies.
So a JU had a. Conversion program and that it
was online. So that was another thing.
I couldn't leave this place. I'm married to this place
especially now. I cannot leave And they they
(04:47):
were the ones that actually introduced me to artsy on
because one of the sponsoring rabbis and there was Rabbi Green
from artsy on and I was really excited.
OK great. So I can do something online.
It's still traditional the storeout here to Overlaw and all that
kind of good stuff and. Anyway, I was liking what I was
hearing so far and contact Orzion and the rabbi was really,
(05:08):
really amazing. Really good.
And that's how this process started.
So in the process of the conversion and building that
relation with Rabbi Green, that's when he helped me to land
this place. Logistically, like, what am I?
I can't be a shul. I don't qualify for a shul.
(05:29):
So what am I? And that's when he suggested,
you know, you got a really good falling up there.
You need to be a platform in themountains to welcome people from
first of all, Jews who are out there who are not observant for
one and for Noa Heights who are coming out of the church and
they need a place to come. So why don't you make it a
(05:51):
Learning Center. There will be a Learning Center
where abate me, Josh, basically.In more of a platform to invite
those who are from different walks of Judaism basically and
for those who are not observant.And that ended up being a
blessing. I got to tell you we ended up
finding who we are. I have to end up changing all my
paperwork. I have to contact my attorneys.
(06:14):
I have to change our name and you know under our government
because we are we are legal entity have to do all that mess.
Pay all the fees for that Again,it's just it was crazy.
It was. It was.
It's been a tough year. Doing this whole transition.
And so we became officially FLTW, became a Torah Learning
(06:35):
Center, no longer a messianic synagogue or anything like that.
And so during that process of doing this, of us going through
the conversion, I was sharing with everybody in here the
things that I was learning a JUUand I was introducing it in our
Torah portion as well. So people were really moved by
(06:57):
what we were doing and what we were learning and they were, you
know, asking and inquiring aboutexperience so far and everything
and what not. And little by little just family
started coming up to and say heyRichard, we want to convert, how
do we do it? You know, like like it, it it,
it was just amazing, Jeremiah, because they really revealed the
(07:18):
position, our position. It's to facilitate because you
know, you probably can have testified to this when you
coming out of the maceionic movement or out of the church,
it doesn't matter. Coming into Judaism can be a
very, very scary and intimidating process because you
don't know that's the whole thing.
You don't. There's once you get it.
Once you get it though, it's very refreshing.
(07:40):
Oh yeah, once you get it. So, like, I don't know what your
experience in Christianity was, but, well, you came from
Assemblies of God. So do you remember, like
basically worship service was a concert.
You know, the preaching, the altar calls, the gifts of
spirit. It's just very performative
thing, the beauty of a traditional tourist service.
(08:04):
There is no performance. There is no instrumentation.
It's not, you know, a performance to make me feel
good. It's literally an offering where
you're giving to God something that's beautiful.
I found that that a quiet service without instrumentation
where I'm praying these ancient prayers that have being prayed
(08:27):
around the world for, you know, thousands of years to be a
beautiful thing versus I'm dancing and shouting and people
falling out and all that kind ofwild stuff.
Yeah, the concert, basically. Yeah.
You know, in the pony show, essentially.
Yeah. But yeah it was it it it's the
experience and what we were experiencing in here and it just
(08:50):
the families were really moved by it I guess.
And and little by little we juststart getting different families
asking how do we convert becausewe're afraid you know it it
again because if we coming out most of these people come back
from an evangelical background so.
Coming to Judaism can be again, it can be intimidating because
(09:12):
you don't know that's if you don't know, it can be
intimidating because you got thewhole saying.
The rabbis turn you down, all these different things.
You know, the Jews are really, you know they they're not
friendly. You know, so all this imaginary
things that they're in people's mind that they're wonders in
people's mind they they're they're afraid of the rejection.
So we became somewhat of again aplatform and an anchor to where
(09:35):
they can okay. We got to lead now.
We got these people that we know.
They got a foot in, oh, we we definitely want to know because
we, we, we, we love to, but we're afraid basically.
So little by little, just families just started coming up
to us and saying we want to, we want to, we want to convert.
Now here's the interesting thing.
I got a family that was watchingus from Utah, the state of Utah.
(10:00):
They ended up moving from Utah to this region right here just
to come and join us. To be a part of this and the
whole the whole entire family converted with us as well.
So it that's how it it just it was really, really amazing.
It was just like miracles. The people.
I was just getting phone calls from different people and saying
(10:21):
hey we we heard that you're converting and what is that
like? That was the questions that I
was getting. What is that like you know did
they turn you down that you did they turn you down.
Did they do this? Did they do that?
And I say, you know, there's some elements of that that is
true. It wasn't easy coming to Judius.
It wasn't necessarily like, hey,sure, come on in.
I mean, there was a little bit of a resistance, nothing like
(10:43):
orthodoxy, but there was some resistance there, at least where
I came from it was a bit of okay.
Well, we're going to test you out and see if what you made-up
sort of to speak, even though they didn't overtly said that,
but you could see it. So it took, it took about
probably six months or so. For A JU and Rabbi Greene to
(11:06):
really be more open to me. Now, here's the caveat with that
too. So at this moment in Phoenix,
and I'm probably sure you heard of this, Phoenix is going
through a lockdown in conversions during this time
because of the the scandal that took place at Habat with their
(11:27):
missionaries that went on the cover as Habat leaders.
And I don't know if you heard ofthat.
That was a big scandal in Phoenix about six months or a
year ago when missionaries went undercover as leaders of Abad.
Oh yeah, they were. They were dressed like
Hassidims. It was one guy with his son.
They were doing Britain Milat. I mean, it's crazy.
(11:50):
You know what these guys were doing?
These guys were converting people.
They wanted to convert. They were charging $30,000.
They were pocketing the money. Wow.
And these are missionaries, may I remind you, that's the whole
thing. The missionary, they were just
trying to convert these people, so it's crazy.
So anyway, Phoenix was they got caught.
(12:12):
Kabat got them, they got caught.So now every Jewish assembly,
every Jewish synagogue in Phoenix is in lockdown high
alert because now they think that everybody that's trying to
come into the doors is a what? A missionary.
So I was coming in during that time, which was very difficult
(12:32):
is what I'm trying to tell you. So it took a little bit for them
to open up and for, you know, for me to show them that I was
genuine, that I was not trying to mechanize anybody.
So during that time was a littlebit tougher.
So but yeah, it'd be it, it it it all worked out.
We we ended up proving ourselves, of course.
And that's when more family started saying, you know what,
(12:55):
we like, what we're hearing. We want to be a part of what
this is. We want to even though I was
telling people you don't have toconvert, you can remain a no
height if you want. But they they wanted this and it
was just basically I walked whatwe were teaching, how we were
walking. Another thing that I was doing
is that right after after Shabbat service I was doing some
(13:17):
mussar teachings and mussar was really amazing.
Mussar. I think mussar really did a lot
of it. They love the mussar.
They love the and and they were all being challenged with
MOSSART you know character building and I started bringing
literatures from you know like off the outpouring of of the
soul. It's one of them and a lot of
(13:40):
the MOSSART groups and that are obviously orthodox but it it it
was just like wow it was life giving.
So every week we will meet, people will come and they were
they will share their experience.
Hey, I was challenged this week with this or that.
And I was reading what you were teaching on the mussar book, and
I put it to practice. And guess what, Richard?
This is amazing. I'm actually getting answers.
(14:01):
We have marriages that were falling apart here.
They ended up being restored. And we were not even doing that
intentionally. That's The funny thing about
it's not like okay sit down and have a marriage council.
We're just sitting teaching mussar and they listen to this
and they're like, whoa, they're putting into practice.
So much of this was. Not much.
All of it was Sasha. You know, it's just the whole
(14:23):
thing. People just became in love with
Judaism and they said, you know what, we want to go on board
with you. We want to follow what you're
doing. You know, we see the the
validity, what you're doing. We see the changes that it's
making in our lives and we see the changes that it's making on
you. They said, and they they just
all jumped the wagon. They said we're going to, we
want to, we want to come and we want to be part of the nation.
(14:45):
So that's really how that kind of evolved.
It just started with classes and.
And after, after classes, after Chavez, we did like I said, we
will gather, we do classes. And really just doing the
classes and showing the Ms. of these classes and the Ms. of the
Torah, the Ms. of Tanak, really all of that did it in essence.
(15:08):
Well, you have an amazing journey, amazing story.
So did you go to the Mikva and Scottsdale for your part of your
conversion? Yeah, so that I went, I went
there and me and my son went to the mikvah because my son, when
we went through conversion, it was right before Rosh Hashanah
2014. It was a beautiful experience
(15:30):
going to the mikvah with my son and him because he, he did how
to fight down Britt. And both of us, you know, we
completed our, you know, everything for conversion and
the Mikva and everything. And so, yeah, we went to the
Mikva there in Scottsdale. It was beautiful experience to
be able to do that with my son. Beautiful experience.
Like, I mean, I'll treasure thatforever, you know, amazing
(15:54):
experience. Yeah.
Wow. So Moosar is a beautiful
tradition though new show the the synagogue I was going to
when I was going through conversion we did.
Moosar definitely love the ethical aspects the meditative
practices. It's it's a beautiful practice
that adds a lot of value that I,you know, I feel like I I carry
(16:16):
with me and and constantly try to be in that kind of state.
So, so that's a beautiful thing.It challenges.
You it really challenges you in a in a very in a very positive
way. And I love the practice of hebbo
de nude as well, which, you know, Mossar connects us with
hebbo de nude. And it's, you know, you know, in
(16:39):
Jewish, you know that in Jewish prayers we got keva, which is,
you know, our prayers are, you know, fixed prayers, of course,
they're orderly prayers. Hebo de Nude kind of breaks that
cycle of keva. And now you go from Keva to kind
of, you know, Kavanaugh. And in the Kavanaugh and he
bought the new you really connect with you know her
(16:59):
college battle pool at a very, very personal level and it it
really helps you refocus and challenge really the things that
are within you. So we my wife right now is
actually training as ATM I for Mussar Institute right now to
become a facilitator for Mussar.That's how how valuable and it's
changed her I mean. The change in here has just been
(17:23):
amazing Jeremiah. The change has just been
surreal. You know we hear and for so many
years in Christianity both in Christianity may see any
Judaism. We were trying to find the
change how can we change how canwe change.
And it wasn't until we came to Judaism and found Musar that
really that it it it it just speaks to your soul and it
(17:44):
challenges you again in a very positive way.
And it I really believe that that it it it, it defens your.
Your connection when I closed Battlefield.
But as a Jew it really, really solidifies and identifies more
really what the role of Jew is. You know it it's just really,
really brings it to the surface.So it's been a blessing for all
(18:05):
of us in here. All right.
So when did you guys complete y'all the your conversion and
when did the the members of yourcongregation convert?
Like when did that happen? So actually our official
conversion took place right before the month of elude, the
(18:32):
beginning of elude. That's a good time.
A very good time, yeah, very good time.
And we we did it. We did it as a group together.
That's what's so beautiful. We all decided let's do it
together as a group. Because we were, my wife and I
were already in that process, but we actually waited.
(18:54):
We ended up finishing our program and we waited for the
group to finish their program sothat we can all do this
together. Like I could have converted
probably six months ago, but I Ipostponed my conversion so that
I can do it with the group and it really, I'm glad that I did.
It was very, very emotional, Needless to say.
(19:18):
Welcome to the tribe. Welcome to the family and you
know, mazel tov to you and and all you guys up there and show
low. That's that's amazing.
I mean that's a beautiful experience.
I mean you got to do it with thegroup of people.
For me, it was doing it with my son was, you know, it's it's
something all treasure forever. It's a beautiful thing.
(19:38):
So, you know now that you're here, I mean it's a new year.
Rosh Hashanah started, you know,last Rosh Hashanah.
So full year you've transitionedhere.
I'm going to want to check in, you know next Rosh Hashanah and
see what it's been like since, you know, between now and then
(19:58):
but quite the experience. So how do you look at?
I want to ask you a couple things about so you were in the
Assemblies of God, which means they believe in the gifts of the
Spirit, speaking in tongues, apostles and prophets.
How do you make sense of, I mean, you saw people speaking in
(20:19):
tongues, people laying on their hands claiming there was
healing. Yeah, I I've never seen a true
miracle with with any of the laying on hands.
Maybe psychosomatic healing, Buthow do you make sense of that
fervent belief that there's spiritual gifts?
(20:40):
I'll be it in the context of intense worship experiences,
intense altar calls, human driven action.
But what do you make sense of your experience there, looking
back now? Well, well, to be honest with
you, even though I was involved in the Assemblies of God, that
(21:02):
was one of the things that I always had an issue with, to be
honest with you or theologicallyspeaking.
I never saw eye to eye when it came to that only because even
back then. I remember being surrounded by
people who were, quote UN quote,receiving the gift of the
spirit. And I always been a very logical
(21:26):
person. Like, I like to hear logic.
Logic is a big part of of who I am.
So I would ask them, what was your experience when you were
speaking in tongues and what were you saying right away?
And of course the answer that they gave me was just was just
wasn't satisfactory. So it it was, you know a lot of
(21:48):
them tell me that they didn't know what they were speaking.
So I was like, well, that to me was a problem because he was
supposed to know what you're saying you could be cursing God.
Even Paul said that, by the way.So I I never never felt
comfortable around it and never really believed in it even with
the healing and everything. And that was just one of those
things that I. That's why as a matter of fact,
(22:09):
we we we ended up leaving the assemblies.
A guy went to Southern Baptist for that reason.
Now the Southern Baptists are completely opposite.
They don't believe in none of this nonsense.
And that's why I felt more more at home sorted to speak only
because I didn't have to deal with that.
But you know, Southern Baptist support has their own issues as
well. But that I to affirm to you I
(22:33):
never felt comfortable, which isthe reason why I left it.
You know, I, I we ended up goingSouthern Baptist and within the
Southern Baptist Association, ofcourse, theologically I again,
this is what I was in my search like.
I knew I didn't fit in Christianity and I knew that
when I felt what I was young, when I was young, was absolutely
(22:54):
true. Because now as an adult and
looking at this in a more objective way and be more open,
more receptive to listening to what they have to say and
logically hear what they have tosay.
It still did not sit well with my Nishima.
And you know, point being taken is that you know that that's
(23:15):
what Hashem used to Get Me Out of it, you know, and bring me
into macianic. As crazy as that sound, bring me
to the macianics to leave as a transitional point, like, you
know, trying to bring you through now as a Jew, like all
of our souls were at Mount Sinai.
Mount Sinai is the giving of thelaw.
So my big question with all the the spirit stuff within
(23:37):
Christianity is why do people filled with the spirit not
compelled to follow the laws of God?
If it's the spirit of God, why do they live lives in
contradiction to the laws of God?
Therefore what kind of spirit are they being filled with is
the big question for me. But you know, I, I, you know it
it, it doesn't seem to fully track.
(24:00):
You mentioned on something the anti that I'm going to kind of
touch on. The anti Judaism of the New
Testament actually manifest as anti-Semitism at its core.
Now within the Messianic movement they try to say skew
replacement theology. Yes, they say you're a completed
(24:20):
Jew if you're in Jesus, which isreplacement theology.
I do not accept their convolutedway of saying, oh, we don't, we
don't believe in replacement theology, but you're not a
completed Jew unless you believein Jesus.
But they're telling Gentiles whoare.
You know, a lot of times they'retelling this to Gentiles who are
playing dress up. I'll get there in a minute.
(24:42):
But they're they're they're telling them that you have to,
you know, believe in Jesus to bea completed Jew yet not offering
conversion to those Gentiles. Now, I read a book and the
reason I said dress up. Rabbi Carol Harris Shapiro wrote
a book on Messianic Judaism. She's like I I think she was a
reformed rabbi and she refers tomost of the messianic movement
(25:08):
as Gentiles playing dress up or cross dressing dressing up in
the name of the cross to convertpeople I find very offensive.
You know I mentioned that the Tovia singer is it's very
offensive the the gentiles playing dress up.
If you're studying Torah and you're dressing this way.
(25:31):
If you believe it then you should become a Jew and stop
playing dress up. I mean it's like my thing but
the anti Judaism of the New Testament, all the places that
were inserted into the text. I say inserted because it
probably wasn't there originally, where it says
statements about the Jews condemning the Jews for somehow
(25:57):
convincing the Roman government to crucify Jesus for wanting to
be king of the Jews. You know, like somehow putting
that blame on the Jews is the foundation of Christian
antijudaism and it goes into Messianic Judaism.
The statement completed Jew is an antijudaism.
It is antisemitism at its core. It is a disgusting statement,
(26:22):
but it goes back to Jesus is everything.
He replaces the Torah, thereforethe Torah is no longer valid.
Though they say he told us to fulfill Torah.
It's the most convoluted thing ever.
I mean, how do you grapple with the the antijudaism of the New
Testament and it's manifestations and Messianic
(26:42):
Judaism? Right and well it's it's it's
it's it's very hard to grapple with that and the the the
problem I think with that is that and I I you know.
I can't speak for for other people.
I can only speak from where I was at at one point is that it
really becomes very subtle. Like a lot of these things, you
(27:03):
really technically never pick upon it.
Like for instance, how the New Testament obviously
mischaracterizes the Jews. It's something that you start
seeing once you come to Judaism,but if you're coming from
Christianity, it's very subtle. You will never see it.
And I don't really believe technically a lot of these
(27:24):
people. Personally, I don't think they
see it. In other words, they being
taught how to hate Jews without them not knowing it.
That's the problem. But they're told they're loving
Israel and they're loving Jews while they're doing it, which is
the most deceptive thing about it.
Yes, that's. But that's that's really the
scary part is that a lot of these evangelicals really have
(27:45):
no idea. That the the Christian Bible
essentially it's teaching them how to hate.
Now that statement right there, if you if I were to say that
statement in a church today, I will be called you know
obviously a heretic or you know this is sacrilege.
We don't hate we are people of love.
(28:07):
But because it is so subtle, that's the danger.
It's so subtle that you cannot see it.
I know for me personally, I never saw it until I started
digging more into Judaism. Then you can start picking up
and stuff like that. But that's the dangerous part
about it. And yes, they're supporters of
Israel. We love Israel.
(28:27):
We love the Jewish people. And and that's that's the danger
you see, it's it's it's coming very, very in a very deceitful
manner. So my heart goes out to them.
I you know, I believe that in inthe time.
I mean we see this in the prophecy, what you know?
Zechariah and Jeremiah, time is going to come from the Gentiles
are going, is not going to awaken.
They're going to see this. But it it it, it is, it's very
(28:51):
it's so dangerous. And here's another thing with
the with the Christian Bible too, which I, I testify for sure
what can you fish out of that You got for instance, and this
is what I presented to the people who are here.
This is what's so compliating about it.
So on the one hand, you have yes, you saying.
That the Pharisees and the teachers, you know, they sit in
(29:12):
Moses, whatever they tell you todo that they do.
You know what I mean? But then in other gospels, it
seems like he's calling them sons of devils.
And and you know what I mean? Like it, the, the narrative, it
just doesn't flow. So it's one of those things
where this is part of the reasonwhy I stopped teaching it.
People ask me, well, why don't you just teach the good stuff?
(29:35):
So why would I want to teach thegood stuff?
What good stuff. And just go to Torre.
I mean, Torres, where you shouldgo like.
Absolutely. And not to mention, well, if I
do that, then I'm going to be accused for handpicking what I
want to hear from the gospel yousee because now there's the flip
side of that and then let's not even talk about Paul.
We're not even getting into Paul.
(29:55):
But you know, I mean it's it's it's this is my point is that
it's not it doesn't flow. So I.
I firm with you. I I generally believe that the
church fathers inserted a lot ofstuff in there as a matter of
fact that you probably know thisthe narrative and you know you
got to sign up the gospel. You got the Gospel John.
So in the Gospel John which is the most popular scripture that
(30:18):
you always going to hear in the church and that is of the woman
who gets commit, who gets caughtcommitting adultery which when
you come to Torah you start reading that and it makes no
sense. So they take her out, right?
You know the narrative. They bring her out.
And and of course, here comes, Gee, you know, this shoe comes
to save her. And whoever is the coming of no
(30:38):
sin may cast the first stone. Well, as it turns out, even
Christian scholars today confer that none of that existed.
None of that. You're going to find the
original Greek. It was all inserted afterwards.
No Marcian invented that percopy, and it was inserted in
22 different places in the earlymanuscripts until they settled
(31:01):
on where it's at now. So that was actually a parable
invented by Marcian, who by the way the Gospel of John was first
widely distributed by the Marcianite community who Marcian
wrote the first gospel and the first collection of falling
epistles that he found. And after that then we start
(31:22):
having the epistles and gospel gospel.
So there's a whole lot of questions there.
Gospel of John was probably invented by the followers of
Marcianite and therefore like that.
That's just a fabrication. Just knock that one to the side.
The Synoptics have so many problems that you touched on,
(31:43):
but so. You can see that you could see
it so clearly. You know and and.
In in this particular passage, which makes perfect sense and
Marcian would do this, you see. And again it's very subtle.
This is the subtle part. I never saw this, but what what
do we see there? The Jews are going to condemn
(32:05):
this woman and kill her and lo behold, now comes Jesus, the new
covenant and now he's going to save her.
You see, it's a it's a the Pharisees versus Jesus.
And Jesus wins, by the way. You see, so this is the kind of
stuff that again, it's it's verysubtle.
Most people would never see it because they focusing on the
(32:27):
fact that she got saved. Now you and I both know from a
Torah perspective, this is completely my sugar.
No Ferrisi would I've ever done that because you need witnesses.
The witnesses are not even there.
The guy that should come in, again, there's so many.
Obviously whoever did this does not know Torah.
This is the point, you see. So you know that this is
completely shaken is my point. So it it it's again, this is
(32:50):
where I I, I see that why followa book that is inconsistent?
Why follow a book that doesn't that contradicts itself by the
way. And yeah, this is one of the
things that I started sharing with the group and and we
starting to see as a group. We starting to see a lot of
these things that people never saw before.
And again, that being right there, that that part in the
(33:12):
gospel who are what, who would you ever conclude that that's an
antisemitic chapter right there?Like if you were to read that if
you're in the church, you would never say, you know what this,
this chapter is teaching me how to hate the Jews.
You would never pick that up. You would never pick that up
when punches. Pilot is trying to save Jesus
(33:34):
and the Jews are trying to crucify him.
You will never conclude that. But you see again, it's all
embedded in the story. So people become haters of Jews
and haters of Judaism. There's no way you can possibly
read the Christian Bible and have a love for the Jews.
There's just no possible way. And and this is really the
problem that we're dealing with today, Most of these people who
(33:56):
are antisemitic today, they antisemitic because they have no
idea that their own Bible is teaching them hate.
And it's a it's a big problem. Well, it's a huge problem.
I mean, starting in 2016, 2015, there was a lot of synagogue
(34:17):
shootings. I was on the the Security
Council at my synagogue. We've had to implement all kind
of security protocols, fences, armed guards, a lot of things
because of the current culture. I'm going to touch on this that
has based in Christian Zionism and evangelicalism, which got
(34:43):
which this, you know, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.
But politically, the evangelicalsupport of Christian Zionism has
led to, you know, the political statement that Jerusalem is the
capital of Israel, which for Jews is always we don't need a
political party to tell us it doesn't.
(35:03):
That's irrelevant for us, it is the capital.
So, but within this movement, the problem of antisemitism
within Christian Zionism becauseof apocalypticism, they're
praying for the demise of the Jews in this end time battle
with Islam because then Jesus will come.
(35:24):
And so this is the thing about Christian Zionism.
We love Israel. We support Israel.
We want to, you know, support the building of the Third
Temple. Yeah but it's the story of like
there's a guy at the top of the mountain and the rattlesnake is
saying take me down the mountain.
It's freezing. I I I don't want to go down the
mountain but I won't bite you and and you could he's saying
(35:47):
like I'm your friend I won't bite you.
Eventually convinces the person to take them.
They take them down. As soon as they put them down
boom rattlesnake bites them. That's the thing of like oh,
they love Israel but they don't love Israel for the sake of
Israel. They love Israel for the sake of
the end times battle where Jesuscomes to save.
(36:07):
The Jews are being slaughtered by Islam according to their
intime prophecy and so their support of Christian Zionism and
the politics behind it is there's embedded antijudaism in
that you need Jesus and Jesus isgoing to save from this intime
battle. It all comes back to the
antijudaism and the New Testament.
(36:29):
So I become uncomfortable with what we support Israel.
Well do you support Jews for Jews and Israel for you know
like for Jewish people or Jewishmeans or because you're looking
for this in time battle. And you know one of the things I
I've been talking to a professorin New Testament studies who who
(36:52):
is not a believer, he's into thehistorical critical method about
the concerns about stuff like Waco.
And within the Pentecostal movement there's the Neo
Apostolic Reformation, a group of people who are politically
involved because of they supportIsrael but they also support
Messianic Judaism because they want to convert Jews and it's
(37:15):
it's anti Judaism. And I I have a huge problem with
it. I mean, have you, have you seen
the dangers or of the Christian Zionism where they're
anti-Semitic involvement? Absolutely.
I mean when you look at you knowand for the most part a good
portion of the evangelical, conservative, evangelical
(37:36):
movements to add to what you're saying, other aspect of this is
also that serves the reason why they trying to convert all these
Jews is because this is going tobring back Jesus essentially.
They believe that we need to convert the Jews in order for
(37:59):
Jesus to come back, which is whyyou have so many groups out
there and so many missionaries in Israel today.
You know, aside from the political aspect of, you know,
the Holy Land being the the, the, the capital for the Jews
and their mind is we want to, wewant to speed up the the second
coming of Jesus. And in order to do that we have
to convert all these Jews. And this is, unfortunately, the
(38:21):
stuff that Paul teaches in his letters as well.
And and you know that the, the tactics and the deception that
they use again this is all advocated by Paul.
I mean Paul says in his letters that the gospel is to be preach
and what and pretense are true. So it's it's it's again it's a
(38:41):
got a bifold in here. You know you got the political
aspect of it, but then you got the unfortunately also the
prophetic side of it and the prophetic side of it, and their
in their mind, the prophetic side of it is.
We want, we want to advance that.
So you you got these complicatedideas from all these different
(39:02):
evangelicals in Israel and this is what's giving birth to this
antisemitism and it still comes back to you know, it's the Jews
fault at the end of the day, youknow.
And by the way we have now the medicine to fix them and that
is, you know, we bring, you knowwe bring Jesus to them and and
yeah, it's a it's a mess. It's a.
(39:24):
And it's and it, you know, it's something that I believe you
can't stop with, Tanak said. It's going to happen.
Now here's the thing. Tanak actually speaks the truth.
You and I both know that. And we know that a time is going
to come, what they're going to say.
We have inherited lies for my father's.
You know, the Jews are not the ones that are going to be coming
(39:44):
to the Christians saying we haveinherited lies for my father's.
It's interesting. The Chris says the Gentiles are
the one. Jeremiah 1619 said the Gentile,
the nations will come, not the Jews.
So I find that very, very interesting that one way, you
know even as crazy as things areright now and things are getting
very, very heated. And and I really believe, like
(40:07):
many, even Tovia said it, many the rabbi say we're we're
approaching that messianic age because of a lot of things that
we've seen the awakening for ones of the nations coming.
You know that the conversion rate in Israel right now is at
the highest ever in history. As a matter of fact, they're
turning down people right now because they can, they can
(40:27):
sustain them in these conversionprograms.
And most of these conversion programs come from evangelicals,
you know, So there's something very interesting that even
though it's it's it's it's really confusing out there right
now. And there's so many different
voices that are taking place. We actually finding that there's
a lot more evangelicals who are actually converting to Judaism,
then Judy Jews converting to Christianity.
(40:50):
So of course, Christians will never share those numbers, you
know, But you know what I mean? So they go and they'll they'll
go to Tel Aviv and they'll convert, you know, they'll sit
down, they'll convert an unbelievable atheist, for
instance, who's never studied, by the way.
I mean these guys are not, you know, these missionaries are not
converting guys from the mirror.You know, they they're, you
(41:14):
know, and but they don't share that with you.
They all, we don't. Look how many hundreds of Jews
came and they converted, You know, yeah, you go to Tel Aviv
and you get all these people whonever, you know, who don't know
to knock. They're going to convert, of
course. But if it's interesting, if you
look at the conversion rate in Israel from the Christians who
are becoming Jews, these guys are coming from seminary school.
(41:35):
These guys are theologians, these guys who are study.
So the difference is you got ones who are coming in the up
and the other ones who are turning and coming to Jesus at
the lowest level. It's a it's an interesting ratio
there. So you know it's it's it's I
believe it's all part of you know what Hashem is doing in
these last days. And I think we're very fortunate
(41:56):
to to be a part of that to have the I CC you and many others who
are who are doing the same. You know so and now I think the
advantage that for me personallyI think one of the advantage
that we have is that we've been in that world.
You know even me seem black me seem black as a kid who he's a
convert and you know he comes from this world.
You know he was in you know he was Once Upon a time a Muslim.
(42:19):
So he comes from this world as well And and it it we are we are
at a platform. I think we had a platform where
we can reach the demographic right now which the the greater
demographic here is goings. They're coming out of the
church. You know living in a Jewish
community like for instance in an Orthodox community you're so
(42:39):
limited what you can do. You know you stuck in there.
You stuck in the air roof basically.
And you know your audience what who's your audience in the air
roof. Jews.
Jews, you know account for less than 7% worldwide.
So think about it. You know most of the work is
done right now. Most of the work it's dealing
with the goings, it's dealing with the people who are coming
(43:00):
out of the church is dealing with people who are coming out
of Macy and Judaism. So I think that we find
ourselves in a very unique position is what I'm saying
because now that we are in Judaism, we we we can be that
voice for these people who otherwise will never come
because the intimidating, the intimidation of, you know, of
Judaism, so. Yeah, that's something.
(43:22):
That's something I'm trying to do here.
You know you're there's another messianic pastor that that has
been on a few times that a former messianic pastor.
You know, I was involved with the, you know, I went to Bible
college, was involved in ministry, was involved in the
Messianic movement. I don't know.
(43:42):
When you look at Christian origins and unbiased, you know,
the the historical critical method, the history of
Christianity invalidates Christianity if you look at it.
And the problem for Christianityis that Judaism still exists.
So the impetus to convert Jews is like this thing that is
(44:06):
saying like we are just a manmade religion is a problem.
So there is an impetus to like try to get that eyesore out.
So that's why the, you know, themissionaries try so hard.
You mentioned Paul is the problem and Paul said the thing
that is the juxta, the problem. I become a Jew to the Jew and a
(44:27):
Gentile to the Gentile. Therefore, you're neither
authentically any. And the biggest problem with
Messianic Judaism, the biggest problem is Jews pretending to be
Jews to convert Jews, Gentiles pretending to be Jews to convert
Jews. But there are the authentic, the
Gentiles who want to get back tothe Jewish roots of
(44:50):
Christianity. They need to go to Judaism.
The source you know used to whenyou were young, you experienced
a Jewish experience and it was authentic.
Therefore, the inauthentic you're able to compare that, but
the idol Jesus makes it hard forit.
(45:10):
You know it. When I when I got married, I
wanted a Jewish wedding and I wanted to raise my kids Jewish.
I didn't want to raise a messianic Jewish.
I just didn't think my my ex, now, my ex, my wife at the time,
would. It would have been okay with it
and so as a means to appease. That's what I chose.
(45:35):
But I I don't feel I was as attached to that because for me,
when I was a child, I read the Tanak twice through read the New
Testament once, but the Tanak for me was like, okay, this
makes sense. And then the New Testament I was
just like there's a lot of things that just doesn't gel.
It contradicts. I need to go back to this and my
(45:56):
problem always with. When I was a Joe's witness, when
I was a Christian, when I was messianic, I'm like, this
doesn't jibe with. It's not.
And so for me, you know, lookingat the authentic, it was good
that I had that experience firstbecause all this other stuff,
it's like I felt like I had to go through it so that I could
understand and answer the questions.
(46:19):
But, you know, I try, you know, through my, you know, my YouTube
channel here and and my, you know, blog.
I'm trying to. Disseminate information to help
people on the journey in the same path.
You know, when I was in Messianic Judaism, my only
understanding was like the original was Jewish Christians
(46:40):
should get back to Judaism. And the more I realized
Messianic Judaism wasn't that I was like, well, I I should be
Jewish. And that's, you know.
Whether or not a person be is a Noah hide or that's their
personal choice, My, you know, my goal isn't to make Christians
Jewish, it's just to disseminateproper information.
(47:05):
You know, like Tovia Singer said.
You know, proselytizing isn't necessarily a bad thing because
if you're giving good information, it's good.
It's the deceptive tactics. It's playing dress up to
convert. It's the the veiled antijudaism
of. The completed Jew, the stuff
like that. So looking back at your
(47:27):
experience to kind of summarize it, you know, how do you look at
all that now and what would you tell your younger self like your
process? Wow.
Looking back now if I would havehad this information say 2020
(47:51):
years ago I will say probably you know get in your car and
squeal tires out of there as quick as you can and that's what
refund and and and and really and it and it most polite way I
want to refund back for for all the tiding that I gave and and
(48:15):
yeah it's it's you know I I often try not to think about
that only because I don't want to fall into anger and it it
easily could happen easily you can you you can become very very
just bitter only because all theyears that you wasted all the
(48:37):
years that you you know you comeout of the church and you would
receive in the church right. You come to Maciana Judy's and
you're like wow this is the authentic way now these guys are
the true guys man. Wow.
And then to find out that these guys all along, we're just
plain, plain Jewish essentially.It it's so it's so easily you
(49:00):
can you can easily. And I actually, by the way I've
seen this. I seen people in this movement
literally become atheist after their experience of Macy
anachitism. They gave up on religion
altogether. It's only a few people that I
know that way. But it it can easily happen.
So I try not to meditate too much and stuff like that.
(49:22):
I try to look and musar teaches me this.
I just look at things in a positive way.
It was a learning curve. And you learn and now you can,
you can meet people that are there.
You can meet people who are coming out who are very, very
angry at this point. They were already angry when
they came out of the church. And you know this the Maciana
(49:42):
movement is just, it's a mixed batch of angry people from
different denominations. And now with with this coming in
life, it it just it just and I think that's what's happening.
I think people in the Macianic movement are really just afraid
because they were already lied to.
And I think we dealing with a lot of emotions right now with
(50:04):
serious emotions right now. And I think this is the reason
why you see you feel that backlash coming at you.
There might be some essence of antisemitism there, but I think
there's more fear than anything because again, they don't know
now what's true. You know, they they thought Once
Upon a time that Christianity was true.
They really believe that MacianaJudaism was it.
(50:28):
And now to find out that this isa lie to like where do you go?
So you you know what I mean? I think this, you know, it's
it's just it's really hard to decipher in the Maciana
movement, who really is antisemitic and who is just
really acting out of emotions iswhat I'm saying and I.
Think and you have the you have the idol Jesus kind of in there
(50:51):
too. So it's the it's the it's those
two things plus the idol of Jesus.
It's hard to give up the idol. That's why I try to have a
holistic approach and, you know,acknowledge that, you know, I've
had people who become atheist onmy channel because, you know,
it's just dealing with the humanemotion of.
(51:13):
Right. Coming to terms with it was all
a lie and it's a loss. And you know, it's got to be
okay to deal with those feelingsand those emotions, right?
Right. And there's got to be a place.
And I I really believe there's this.
I really believe personally withall my heart and all my Nishama
that this is where people like yourself and others who are
(51:35):
coming out of this to be to be that, that support, to be that
team, to be that again, you needthat because again, it's really
emotionally can disturb you in so many different ways and not
just emotion, but spiritually aswell.
And you find yourself that all your life you've been lied to.
And now who, I mean, how do I know that you're bleeding in the
(51:56):
right way. And that's kind of a little bit
of what we got in here, to be honest with you initially when
we broke the news to people. I can see that in people.
I can see the the the hopelessness in their face and
fear more than anything fear. So we we we really dealing with
(52:17):
so many different again different emotions and the yeah,
the idol plays a role because all their life they've been told
that if they don't accept this idol they're going to perish in
hell. So you know that's still echoing
in their minds. Even when they came to Macy and
Judaism that never went away. It was still, I wouldn't admit
it. So now I think what's happening
is that they actually have to face the reality.
(52:38):
The A, the man that you thought was going to save you is
actually not going to save you. So there's a great feeling.
There's a great feeling that like, OK, you mean to tell me
that I'm the one responsible. You see that's.
And you know, all your life you've been taught there's
nothing that you can possibly doto save yourself.
(52:59):
Yeah. So so now you.
Well, and to come to a place like within Judaism, you know,
we, we, we we elevate the Sadiq,the righteous person.
Right. I mean the the goal of moose
art, you know, is to become an ethical person.
So, I mean, it's different, you know, salvation for the
(53:20):
Christian is personal, whereas salvation for the Jewish
national, right. The, you know, it's it's a
different concept. I realized that we've been going
for about two hours. So I want to kind of bring it
down. I'm going to have to break this
into two different ones, which is fine.
I want to. I want to leave it on this last
(53:41):
kind of question and note. So within Judaism, Jesus has no
place. And as far as history, he's a
marginal Jew. Judaism has no place for a
single rabbi. What do you make of the
historical Jesus? Do you believe he is a person or
a myth? And for you now in FOTW what
(54:02):
role does he play now Well and effort TW he actually plays a
zero role for us right now. He you know he we we tend not to
look back anymore that we're looking forward.
So for us here he means nothing absolutely nothing.
And I, I, I, I can honestly say that for everybody in here
because I, they have voiced thathistorically speaking.
(54:27):
You know, I'm, I'm, I'm really don't have a position on that.
I mean at one hand he could havebeen a rabbi from the Galilee
who, which by the way, historically speaking many Jews
were crucified. Jesus was not the only one, by
the way. And they were crucified for
ideas. They were conducive towards the
(54:50):
Roman Empire being destroyed, the zealots for instance.
So you know, he could have been a rabbi from the Galilee who had
a decent following and he was speaking terminologies.
They were really coming against the empire that time.
And for that he got crucified and Rome then took his persona
(55:11):
and made this new Jesus type of persona that we see today.
There's that one option or he could have been really truly a
false prophet, the the false prophet of due to Army 13,
obviously. So it's kind of hard to pit
point it only. I mean if you basing it on the
gospel, it's kind of hard because you see a Jesus who is
(55:31):
pro Tora, a Jesus who is just a man who says the Father, you
know he all the prayers go to the Father.
We see that element in some of the gospel, but then we see
other elements of the gospel where he deify himself and he
makes it so coequal. So it's kind of hard to decipher
to the whole thing. Where I stand is I really don't
care because he means nothing anymore.
(55:53):
You see what I mean? We here after TW, we waiting for
the true machine, you see? And what?
What Jesus was it really for us?It doesn't matter because it's
not going to change my position and where we're heading is what
I'm saying. Like if I were to find out
tomorrow, hey, as it turns out, Jesus was real and he was a
(56:15):
rabbi from the galley, OK, that's not going to change my
perspective. It's not going to change my
relationship that I have with Judaism today.
Or if I find out that, by the way, he really was teaching
heretical theft and he was making himself coequal with God
and OK, then he's the he's the prophet from Deuteronomy 13.
Either way doesn't make a changefor us because we are embarking
(56:36):
in a journey and we are in the Ms. right now.
We loving the Tanak and we're waiting for the true Mashiya.
And we understand that as as part of being the nation right
now our role is to usher the mashiya.
You know, as you probably know this and every generation of
Masia could have came, but Israel wasn't worthy.
So why? Because Sina hinam, baseless
(57:00):
hatred. So what I'm trying to focus here
at FOTW is in character building.
That's really the the weight of our of our organization right
now let's work on character building because this is one of
the reasons why again, my Shia never came in the generation.
It could have, it could have came in a generation and every
generation there's an opportunity for my Shia.
As you know this in Judaism we teach this.
(57:22):
So I want to instead of looking so much at what Jesus probably
is or isn't, I want to focus in ushering the true machine.
And here that's our focus. Our focus is let's get rid of
baseless hatred. Let's get rid of you know the
bigotry and especially contention amongst brothers and
sisters and and I got a level with you people that come in
(57:43):
here. I had Toby a singer be here this
summer. I had also Rabbi Pink has Taylor
from the Habat and Plantation was here.
Both of these rabbi's gave us such a great great.
I mean they were just like Mama the wing when they saw this
place because they were like, wow, I have never seen a place
where people actually get along this well outside of Judaism.
(58:04):
Because in the in the shoots, you know, people get along and
we argue, but at the end of the day we hug.
But outside of that, this is as a matter of fact, this was such
an impact for them that Rabbi Pink House Taylor has an
organization called the AmericanFake Coalition for the A FC.
We're part of this correlation. Our picture is in the front of
(58:25):
his website like that is the page because this is ideally
what he is trying to accomplish right now.
So we're seeing that there's a change.
Even habad, he's Habad and he's trying to introduce this to the
Habad, basically. So what we're doing here is not,
you know, not trying to, you know, we do dig into the
(58:46):
Veritora. We we do, they get into the
Shuharu, We do follow Halaha. We're learning more Halaha where
we fit in more in the Halaha issues and and and whatnot.
Those are good things, you know,walking as a Jew, keeping cash
to do all these different things.
But none of that matters if we hate each other.
None of that matters if we harboring hatred.
(59:08):
I mean this is basic one-on-one Judaism is what I'm saying, you
know and I think that a lot of times especially coming into
Judaism we can get so wrapped upwith the mits votes and okay how
do I do this Mits vote. How do I do this mits vote
exactly. And and we can get just get so
wrapped up and you know it can be overwhelming.
There's so much that we lose track of really what we need we
(59:31):
should be doing as a as a as A at a basic level I'm saying as a
as a shortage as a foundation. So for us today we're not really
preoccupied with Jesus. We're really just more
preoccupying. How can we make an impact on
Judaism and what we doing in here.
I love it that, you know, again I I converted my Sorti and but
(59:51):
I'm dealing primarily. I'm dealing with Orthodox right
now that's, you know, and and our Halaha is Orthodox for the
most part. And I mean I got Rabbi Greene,
he's he's Conservative. So what I'm trying to do is I'm
trying to bring these these rabbis together, you know, even
in Judaism there's a political issue, as you know.
(01:00:13):
You know and and and and I thinkthat this this is the area where
we want to try to again unite. Because you guess what When a
Nazi comes knocking on our door he's not going to care whether
you're a master T, whether you miss Rocky or whether you
Ashkenazi or whether you're so product you are true at the end
of the day. So I'm, I'm, I.
(01:00:33):
Our heart it really it's more focused on that we don't.
We just really don't focus anymore on the past or on Jesus
or what he was or what he could be or whatever case may be.
We see a bigger picture here right now.
It's a beautiful thing. Sounds like you've had an
amazing journey. I mean, it's been a blessing
here in your story. Thank you.
(01:00:55):
All right. So any final words here for the
audience? And well, I just want to
encourage the audience to reallytake the time to study.
Number one, don't study by yourself.
That can be dangerous. It's it's important for us to be
objective when we come into the scriptures be objective to it
(01:01:16):
and and really take the time to really examine the Christian
Bible verses the phenom. Judaism is a beautiful beautiful
walk. It is it is obviously the the,
the containment of the emesis there and I want to encourage
everybody in the audience to really take that time to to
really explore. Because I will say this, I I
(01:01:38):
forgot to mention I have people that are calling me from the
other side of the country that I've never even heard of before.
One of the things because I get Jewish news is just going
everywhere. So one of the things that I'm
hearing that I I thought is veryinteresting is that since people
have come to this awakening, onething that they say and they're
also the same thing that they they feel a load of the
(01:02:04):
shoulders. They feel freedom.
They when they finally let go ofJesus, it was like cloud, you
know what I mean? Like, like the hardest point is
letting go. But once you let go, there's
freedom. So I will encourage everybody in
your audience to to to trust in God at the end of the day and to
know that you're not alone on this.
(01:02:26):
There's many of us who are coming to this awakening and and
and be a part of that prophecy of Zechariah, age 23, when 10
men from the nation will grab the cloak of a Jew and say we're
here, that God is with you. Be a part of that in these days
so that we can usher the true machine.
And don't be afraid to let go ofJesus.
(01:02:46):
So you made a statement that about not studying alone.
So that was something that Jehovah's Witnesses would say is
that you can't understand the truth on your own without the
society. When you say that, you're
talking about the Tanak within the Jewish community.
(01:03:08):
What exactly are you saying? Because that can be misapplied
and so I wanna situate that proper absolutely.
So you know what I mean when yousaid don't study it by yourself.
It's gonna be depending on the individual, number one, your
level of understanding of Tanak #1.
If you're not very skilled and annoying, Tanak, my
(01:03:29):
recommendation is that you will go obviously to a Jewish rabbi
to help you kind of decipher a lot of these things in The
Tonight because it's very, very important.
Cultural plays a huge role, context plays a huge role,
language plays a huge role, so. Trying to speak Hebrew fluently,
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you speak luntly
(01:03:50):
Hebrew and you can read Hebrew fluently, by all means, all I
would tell you do is go back andread it in Hebrew.
That's that very simple. But I I suspect for the majority
of the people, that's not the case.
And and that not being the case,it's always good to team up with
somebody that you that has been doing this for a while or rabbi
(01:04:11):
who obviously has been doing this all their life.
But you want to definitely surround yourself with people
who kind of know what they're doing.
So yeah, it could be interpretedas, yeah, you don't want to just
depend on somebody. But we're not asking you to go
back to the church for this. We're not asking you to go back
to the Watchtower for this. We're asking you come to Judaism
for this. So, and and that's really the
(01:04:31):
case. It's where you're going to and
if you don't have the ability and the capability to do this by
yourself, because as we can see,the Bible can be interpreted in
many different ways. Yeah, so.
Culture, context and language isimportant in studying any text.
The culture is the container of the traditions.
(01:04:53):
The language I mean. Any language, you know, that
they say just say to translate is to lie.
That is why we study in Hebrew, so we can understand for
ourselves. So you know, very important
things. Well, this has been a very
beneficial talk and I'm thankfulwe got to do this and we got to
touch on this. I like interviewing people
(01:05:15):
who've had an interesting journey, a similar journey.
I feel like Goldilocks and the Three Bears.
I had to try out a bunch of stuff before I found out where I
was supposed to be. But my soul was always here, you
know, at the feed of Mount Sinai.
So it's been a blessing. And yeah, have a good night.
(01:05:38):
And Shawna Tova, since it's a New Year mazel tov for joining
the family. Thank you.
Hopefully we can meet in person.And again, thank you for having
me here on the show. I look forward to more journeys
because as you know, Judaism is a journey.
(01:06:00):
So we'll see where we're going to land.
We know we're going to be in Judaism, but we're we're now
from here, where do we go, You know, So it's it's a good thing.
It's a really, really good thing.
And I'm looking forward to sharing that with you as I go
along on my journey and to hear your journey as well and where
where we are landing. So it'll be a good thing.
(01:06:20):
Well, sounds great. I'm glad we made this
connection. And, you know, onward.
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