Cults and Murder Chats on a Friday

This Scotty-less episode (SHOCKING WE KNOW) features Jason (@lindenation) talking about a potential cult living across the way from his apt... and he divulges all the details to Andrew. Plus, they talk about some major murder shows and Jason uses his experience as a lawyer to discuss the cases in depth!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is now recording. Great, Hi everybody, welcome to I
guess maybe a bonus episode.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
We don't know what this is.

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Yeah, really, but Jason's back and he had a really
fun story he wanted to tell.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
So and just by the origin, so people understand Andrew
has no idea of the story I'm about to tell.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Zero clue. You sent me a picture of a cult
what you thought was the Nexium cult, yeah, which like
fascinated by. And Scott's not really super into cults, so
I was like, I want to hear the story about
the cult.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Okay, So, and just so you know, I have maybe
told the story to one or two other people, So
I don't even know if it's even a good story,
but I hope, I hope it is right. Okay, go,
I'm ready when pandemic happens. March of twenty twenty, me
and my wife live in New York City on the
Upper East Side. We moved out of the city temporarily,

(00:51):
and then we moved back into the city June first
of twenty twenty. Now were you where were you in
June first, twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
I just moved back to Jersey City because I went
I moved to my parents when the pandemics happened.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Like most people did.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Yeah, and then I moved back in June.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
So New York City at that time was like it
was eerily dead, like most people. Keep in mind, New
York City was the epicenter, so everyone moved out. But
what happened was I had my own business and I
needed to come in and I had employees. So June first,
I moved back into the city. I reopened my office
and believe it or not, we started going in legally
because they said that we could. So. But every night,

(01:30):
when the sun would set, you could see how vacant
the buildings were. Yeah, and especially the building surrounding me.
So I live on the twelfth floor, and across the
street from me, there's a really fancy building, really fancy,
and in that building, almost all of the apartments were dark,
aside from the few that were there. And like we

(01:51):
were like, oh, those are our friends, those are our
pandemic friends. There are one apartment that was right across
and one floor up. There was always like one individual
person in that apartment, okay, okay, and like the person
like when like they didn't really come out on their
balcony that much and like you can only just like
kind of see their silhouette. So and like sometimes they'd
be like staring and because there was nothing that there

(02:12):
was nothing going on, they like stare into our apartment
and stuff. Yeah, okay, so we're just like that is
the creepiest thing in the world. It's just this one
guy that's at this apartment throughout the pandemic.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
And they would just be like standing on their balcony just.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Like like almost like yeah, they have a balcony and
then there's like a window, like I would see them
like staring out just like and we were probably one
of one of the only apartments in our building that
was occupied, so like we would stare at them, they
would stare back at us, or he would and so okay,
twenty twenty one, things start to get better in New
York City. Things start to open up, and there's now

(02:48):
more people at that apartment little by little. So first
there was two, then it was three, and then like
this year especially, there was times where there was like ten, eleven,
twelve people at the apartment, okay at one time, at
like one time, and the apartment's not like ghy, it's
a nice apartment. Maybe a two bedroom, but like, why
are there so many people? Why are there? It would

(03:09):
be like a Tuesday night, and then like Wednesday morning,
like we would wake up and see and there'd be
like four or five people like on the balcony, so
like people were staying over at that apartment, and like, oh,
so my wife is also a big cult person. Yeah,
and so she and I would hypothesize what that particular
apartment was and we both came to the same conclusion

(03:30):
that it's got to be a cult.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Oh say less, I mean why not?

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Right? Yeah, So it's very strange, weird amounts of people
and like weird looking people too, I should I should
say that, very strange looking people. So last week, after
we've had maybe fifty dinnertime conversations of talking about the
cult across the way, which we thought was maybe like

(03:54):
next Seum or like one of those big cults that
that there was like Netflix specials on. Yeah, we're like.
I was like, I'm getting to the bottom of this.
I need to know what this.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Is, who lives there, what's going on?

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Okay, So here's what I did, all right, And you
should know I'm a lawyer by trade, so I'm pretty
good at like investigating things. Yes, So the first off,
we didn't even know what the apartment number was of
the building, so like we didn't know if it was
like apartment like thirteen or or whatever. So the first
thing we did, I'm gonna take you through my steps here, Okay.

(04:28):
So I went to street easy and I figured out
the apartment straight across the way, okay, which was the
apartment under theirs And I figured out that was apartment
I don't know, twelve s, let's call it. So we're like, okay,
we need to we know that the apartment above is
likely apartment thirteen S. So I found the I ended
up using street easy, which is a hold up.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
They have thirteen floors.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Oh, this is a big building. They probably have, Like I.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Thought there were no thirteen floors and buildings.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
I think there is a thirteenth floor in this building. Weird.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
Okay, already I'm hooked.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
So the building, I should tell you, takes up like
a full New York City block. It's a big building
and it probably has maybe eighteen nineteen floors in the building.
There's three separate towers. So it's a really big building
and a really fancy building. White glove like Dorman like
lots of amenities, you name, it's the extremely expensive extremely Okay.

(05:18):
So I figure out what the apartment number is by
using street Easy, which is a basically a Zillo for
New York City. Yeah, okay, So I now have the
apartment number. So then I go into the New York
City property records okay, and I searched there quite a
bit for things, and I was able to find that

(05:38):
apartment and that apartment which is owned by an LLC
called my Nest LLC. Okay, my Nest ELLC. And if
you're unfamiliar with what goes love with what goes on
in New York City, so like a lot of people,
like rich people don't want to put their names on
individual apartments, so they make these like fake LLCs like

(06:01):
that are just like for the purposes of owning the
apartments to avoid liability.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Of like a shell company.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
It's a shell company, so it's my Nest LLC. So
then I'm like, okay, my Nest LLC, what is this?
So then I continue searching the property records and then
I search my Nest LLC to see if they own
any additional properties in New York City, they owned one
other apartment, so this that apartment's on sixty sixth Street.
They owned an apartment on sixty ninth Street, Okay, okay,

(06:27):
So I was like, what is going on here? They
owned two separate apartments sixty six sixty ninth. This is weird. Yeah.
So then I go into the actual like transfer of
the deeds and of on the transfer of the deeds
for the individual apartment on sixty six, which is the
apartment that's across the way from us. I see a

(06:48):
name of It's very strange because the deed and if
you wanted to serve the LLC, oh I missed a
step here. So then I went to the New York
State Entity Department of State website to figure out who
owns that LLC MYSTLLC. And this all just.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
Came because you just were like, I'm gonna get to
the bottom of this.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
I needed to get I needed we needed to know.
This had been going on for years, like once or
twice a week, me and my wife would be like, oh,
the having a party again, yeah, the cult, Yeah, okay,
who's there?

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Why are people there?

Speaker 2 (07:19):
So then the listing on the state's website for who
owned the corporation didn't say who owned it, but it
gave a service address of somebody a financial company in
Los Angeles, California, like a financial advisor. And that financial
advisor's name was Marilyn Anderson, like financial services. Okay. So

(07:40):
then I google Marilyn Anderson financial Services and I come
to this website and I find this woman, Marilyn Anderson,
and she had written a book called How to Live
Like a Millionaire Without having a million dollars okay, And
I don't know if this is gonna come up, but
she is very quirky.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
Have to be a millionaire to refod prescriptions these days,
and that's even with insurance. So I checked out ways
to get my pills for less. You might have high
cholesterol or diabetes, or.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
She might have broken so it's like a health cult
so like or like No, that was just like an
example of like, oh, how do you get your prescriptions
for cheaper? Okay?

Speaker 1 (08:21):
So hold on, Yeah, So the apartment, it goes back
to my Nest LLC LLC. They bought this apartment on
sixty six and they own an apartment on sixty nine.
Correct under when you looked into my Nest, you found
out the person that bought the apartments or what the
entity is registered to the person is this woman? Okay, okay,

(08:42):
so then hold up and she's Los Angeles Base.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
And she's Los Angeles Base. She calls herself an author,
and she.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Can I see a picture?

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, actually I could show you that video.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Oh my god. Okay, did you did you look at
the comments on YouTube? Of course you did, why would
you wait?

Speaker 2 (09:01):
So then I searched further into Marilyn Anderson, and then
I found a different Marilyn Anderson. So already my mind
is like, okay, this is some like how to like
live like a millionaire, and all these like people are
piled up into this really expensive apartment and they're like
living like a millionaire without like living. So but then
I found a different Maryland. Okay, and the Maryland was

(09:23):
a legitimate financial advisor. So this crazy kooky person is
not this has nothing to do.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Oh okay. So Maryland doesn't live there, She does not
live there. Does she come up anymore in the story.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
She does not, But another Marilyn Anderson does.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Okay, that's fair.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Okay, So then there's this other Marilyn Anderson who has
a legitimate financial company, and I found the company, and
I found her on LinkedIn. Got the real Marilyn Andrews.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Got It.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
I just was taking into like a dead end, as
we called got it.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Got it yepp Okay.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
So I'm like, okay, like that ended up being a
dead end too. I looked her up on LinkedIn. She's
like a private equity financial advisor for people in Los Angeles, California,
because she calls it like very boutiqui and for like
very like famous rich people.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
It's got it.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
So I was like okay, like I couldn't get any
other information. So then I started like really parsing through
the property records.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, I was gonna ask you that would be my
next question, just would figure out when did this apartment
become my nests sod unquote.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
So that apartment though, that my nest apartment was bought
maybe in like twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Also, I have a side question, yes, And I feel
you're a good person ask for this. It's nice because
usually when I ask Scott questions, like we just say
I don't know, yeah, but I feel like, you know, okay,
this is great. Yes, So I as a company, Yeah,
like just say Serial Killers LLC. Correct, we could buy
an apartment, correct, And then basically what we could do, yes,
is use that and then count it as a loss

(10:46):
because we bought property. But then I don't know, for
tax reasons, you could almost like finagle it where it's
like oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, if you're a property owner and you have a
mortgage and a property, you could there's ways to deduct
part of that mortgage from Yes.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
So we could say it's like our headquarters.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, and then and then you're taking you there's a
deduction of a maximum of seve hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
So we could keep buying properties and saying that we're
all the mortgages and all this other stuff.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Well, eventually a bank would be like, oh, we're not
going to give you more than one one would hope yes, Okay,
so now we that. So I start parsing through the
property records, and every single address that's even on the
property records goes back to this financial firm in Los Angeles.
So they're really doing a crazy job at hiding who
owns my nest all see, and who owns this property.

(11:35):
But deep in one of the financial records I saw
this address and it said, keep in mind this property
is a two hundred East sixty six. They also own
a property a two hundred East sixty ninth. And then
really deep in the records, I saw this address of
two twenty five East sixty seventh Street. Hold up a

(11:55):
third property, a third property, and this was not readily
available in You really had to go into the property
records to find this. Okay, okay, and this just happened
to be on one of the PaperWorks that you were
going through. Yeah, because I was like really getting into it,
I was like, there has to be another address somewhere.
So then I look up the property records for two
twenty five East sixty seventh Street. Well, first I go

(12:16):
to street Easy or Google street Feel when I look,
and it's a carriage house in New York City. So
it's like a three.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Or four level like a brownstone, like beautiful brownskot it
so super expensive, like New York, those things are insanely priced,
like at least ten million.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Oh yeah, and this one's in like a very nice neighborhood.
It's properly East type. Yeah, it's probably like fifteen or
twenty million, and it's big.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, we're talking money.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Money, yes, Okay. So I going look and I saw
that there was some transfers of that piece of property
between like two thousand and two, two thousand and three
to like the last one might have been like twenty eighteen, okay.
And so when I start going through the records, I
see that there's a transfer of the property from A
James Henson to A what's the name. I got to

(13:05):
figure out the name and make sure I have all
my facts correct. Hold up.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
So from this random address being on the original property
for the sixty sixth one, yes, you then went to
the this address on sixty seventh correct, because why would they?
Why would so, Mike, this is a dumb question, but
I feel like I'm really gonna dumb this down. Why
would the sixty seventh Street address be on there?

Speaker 2 (13:29):
I don't know. And that's what was confusing, because in
all the other documents and the transfers, like they were
using that Los Angeles address. But maybe someone said at
some point you need to have an actual address of it.
Can't just be this financial person like like, we want
to put an actual address onto this document.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
For the same reasons that I was talking at before,
because after a while, the banks are going to ask
what is this financial company doing with all these properties?

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Exactly? So ready, I see a couple of different transfers
of this property. One was from a James Henson to
a Jane Henson, and then a Jane Henson to some
other LLC. And then when when Jane Henson and the
transfer so from James Henson to the other Henson, it
was a there was zero dollars exchange from Jane Henson

(14:15):
to this new LLC. It was like three and a
half million dollars, which is significantly undervalue for the tarty.
And then that entity transferred it to another entity called
like my carriage house or carriage house annex LLC.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Okay, all right, so now, and this is all taking
place around the same time as the twenty sixteen property.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Generally things are taking like around the same time.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
So within the past ten years, correct, they pick up
the sixty sixth Street one, they pick up the sixty
ninth Street one, and then this mysterious sixty seventh Street
property is transferred for considerably underpriced in this exact same
time exactly.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
But it looked like that sixty seventh Street property was
owned within those same entities or those same people for
a very long period to pass around a month, correct,
passed around from different entities and different people.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Ready, yeah, this is where it comes full circle. Yeah,
so we start, my me and my wife start to
look at two twenty five East sixty seventh Street. I
believe is the address. Let me just double check that.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
And this is the carriage house. This is the carriage house,
the random carriage house that you found on a financial
document exactly that cracked open the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yes, it is two twenty five East sixty seventh Street. Okay,
So two twenty five East sixty seventh Street, as we
looked into it was ready for it. Yeah, it was.
It belonged to Jim Henson the Muppets, the creator of
the Muppets and of Sesame Street. And it was his
workshop where he had developed many of the Muppet and

(15:52):
Sesame Street characters.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
And so now that when he before he died, he
trans for that property to his wife. His wife then
transferred that property to his estate, and then his estate
transferred that property to a separate project that's run by
his daughter. And it's called the carriage House annex. Okay,
And they give like grants and works the different puppeteers

(16:17):
that are promoting the arts of puppetry. Oh okay, yeah,
so then we're like, what what is going on? Yeah,
and then we pulled it all together the apartment across
the way, which is owned by my Nest LLC Big
Bird Nest. Oh. Yeah, what we thought was the Nexium

(16:40):
cult across the way actually is just a group of
puppeteers and they are probably such nice, sweet people that
probably don't have a lot of money, because I don't
think there's a lot of money and puppeteering.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, I mean I feel like you really got to
be at the top to be a good puppeteer.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yes, And so across the way there, it's kind of
like a cult. There's a cult of puppet tears. Yeah.
And from us thinking that this was like the creepiest,
weirdest thing in the world is like the most like
lovely nice thing.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
I know.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
It's almost like you found like a nice uh you
wrapped it up nicely. Like here I was. I was
waiting for the murder, No murder, I swear I was
expecting a murder in the carriage house.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Can I tell where you where we're at right right
right now, yeah, because like that can't be it for me.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, no, it can't be. Like I need to know
more of what is going Yeah, like a scientology involved.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah, so it is no, no, no, there's no scientology involved.
So a few things. So I walked past the and
I have a one and a half year old, so, like,
we watch a lot of sesame straight on your house.
I'm like, I'm a Muppets fan ever since I was
a kid.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, my goddaughter is obsessed with Elma.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
So I walked past the house and this is what
the house looks like if you could see that.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
Wow, And a carriage house when you open it up,
it's kind of like a courtyard, right.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
So it's not a courtyard. It's closed, but it's very
open in there. And over the door of the carriage house,
I don't know if you could see it, what is it?
It says ha h a like ha ha okay, So
it's like it was yeah, just like like a cute

(18:18):
little joke. So then I started looking at the carriage
house annex to find out what this is, and so
I saw that they have different grants that they're giving
out in different like shows like and so I am
trying to now penetrate into the puppeteering community. I need
to get into that carriage house.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
I feel like, once you went to the puppeteering world,
I don't know, they're gonna know that you're They're gonna
go back and listen to this. They're gonna watch it
and be like, he's not one of us.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Well, but I'm coming in in good faith, like it's
it's a genera like like serious curiosity, right, genuine curiosity.
I have no intent to do anything other than bring
light to this amazing world and puppetry. Yeah, I'm not
making fun of them. I think it's a beautiful thing.
I think it's a great thing. We love.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
We love Sesame Street, the Muppets like amazing.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
So I found this one show that's supposed to be
this month or next month, and I found the creator
of the show who was given the grand and I
instagram messaged her and you know, I don't want to say, hey,
I'm trying to figure out what's going on, but you know,
nice a nice friendly message of of hey, blank, I
saw online that you were given this grant and are

(19:31):
putting on a production in the next coming days. Is
there a place where I could buy tickets for the show?
Where's the show being held? And she's like, thanks for
reaching out, send me your email address and I'll get
you the information. So I sent her my email address.
I still haven't received anything, so I need to follow
up with her. But you better believe I if I
am going to go to that puppet show.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, is it like Evan you q ish?

Speaker 2 (19:50):
No, so that specific puppeteer she does hand a shadow
puppets what?

Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yes, So it's a whole show of shadow puppets. Correct
for her, I would go to that in two seconds. Yes,
and it's for it's an adult shadow puppet show. I
need to go to this, right, I didn't even know
that was a thing.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
So she and and and I'm sure it's awesome and
and probably hilarious.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
I mean, if you're getting a grant for it, I'm
going to assume that you're at the top of your feeld.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Like the Jim Henson grant for it. Not so it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
That is nuts and it really feels very only murder
in the buildings ish, Yes, like I feel like you guys, really, yes, really,
I was thinking this was leading to a murder.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
My wife is the Selena Gomez character and am I Martin.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, I would say maybe you're more Steve Moore and
I don't think you're I think you're more Steve.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
I think I think I'm more Steve. Yeah. Wow, yes, So.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
It just goes to show don't judge a book by
its cover.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Do your research.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Hold please, I'm going to play a quick commercial. It's here.
Hold on, there we go. Wow, I get to play
my own commercials Now, this is exciting. Okay, now we're back.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
We're back. So I don't know where this is going
to go, but I'm not letting it die. Like, I
have to keep this going. I have to keep this
moving forward.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
Well, I mean, I feel like I've heard people are
good at investigating, but you have truly I feel blown
the lid on all investigations I've ever heard of. I
have never seen someone go into so much detail. Yeah,
to get to the bottom of something. In my life,
I'm pretty relentless. I think that's one of my skills
as a litigator and attorney.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, I have to myself for a second.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Linden Law.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
Linden Law. So like I if I fixate on something
and I want to know the answer to something like
I will not give up.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
I am very much the same in certain things, like
in college they told me my credits when in transfer
I transferred three times. Yeah, by the time I got
to the third one, they're like, we're not taking any
of these. I legit printed out every course I ever
took and got teachers recommendations on every single one of
those and was like, here's why you have to take them,
because I match them up to your current course book.
So these match. Saying it doesn't it doesn't because the

(22:01):
curriculums match, and the teacher even says it does.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Never take no for an answer, so true. When I
went for my first job interview after college, this guy
was like, you're young, and you're gonna learn that life
isn't black and white and there's a lot of gray
area in between. Fuck that, Like, no, no, no, you
make your own luck in this world. It's only a

(22:24):
no if you let it be a no, and you
never give up. That's kind of how I got onto
a survivor. Really yeah, Like I was relentless, really follow
up videos every six months, emailing NonStop. Once they gave
me a little crack, I pushed my way through the door.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
And that's the way I like to lift, which is
very annoying for my wife.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
No, listen, it's good to have pipples. I feel who
like are aggressive like that? Yeah, because you know some
people just kind of sit by the side. But I
mean you've cracked open where Jim Henson's art studio is.
So I mean I feel like jokes on them.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, I mean that's part of what I love being
a lawyer. Like people that would just sit back, I'm.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Like, no, yeah, we need to keep going to get in.
So is all that stuff like public record? It's or
do you have your own like little database that you search?

Speaker 2 (23:09):
So that's all like street easy is obviously public Actress
which is the New York City property records as public.
And then additionally you can go to the Department the
New York Department of State website and look up any
LLC and figure out when they were registered, who to
serve if you want to sue them, and things like that.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
It's all public record. Do you just have to know
how to use it?

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Just got to know that they exist and how to
use it. Yeah, that's insane, It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
There's like so many free resources out there that you
just don't realize can help you, not being like junior detective,
but can really.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Could really, really really help. And that's why like a
lot of like investigative podcasts and things like that, a
lot of the information is out there. You just had
to piece it together. So like Cereal is obviously in
the news right now, like she went and did something
called a foil request to to the to the prosecutor's
office and to the detectives off where the government's required

(24:02):
to respond to these requests. I'm sure they'll try to
fight it a make up excuses of why they can't
give it to you. But a foil request is a
freedom of information request that if it's a government entity
generally speaking, and the public's entitled to that information. So
if you're if you're ever trying to figure out what's
going on, or a loved one's being prosecuted, or maybe
even in jail, you could always go and do a

(24:24):
foil request to any entity and try to get that information,
really and and anybody could do You don't have to
be a lawyer to do it. Anybody could do it.
We're living in a world right now. This is like
We're going to get deep for a second, where it's
it's almost like all these big uh like corporations have
so much information on us, right, and like the government
has a lot of information on us. Not to be

(24:45):
like big brother in political politically yeah, politically politicky politikey Yeah,
I need to get there. But at the same time,
you know, as an individual person, you kind of think, oh,
I don't have access to this information or I can't
get this information. Yeah that's not true. You just have
to not give up because people will tell you no
along the way.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Wow, yeah, that's nuts. Yes, Like I really didn't know
that you could do all that for free, for free,
Like I would have assumed that I would have to.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Not only for free. Like in the amount of time
that I told that story, I got it done really.
Oh yeah, it was pretty fast. I was doing it
on my phone. And then like once once I found
the financial advisor of information, I got up from the
couch and was like, I gotta grab my laptop. And
then for the next twenty minutes I was just like
giggling to myself as this unfold and figured out.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
The cult was actually like an innocent puppeteer party.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
And my wife is sitting next to me but not
looking at my computer. She's like, tell me, tell me,
and I was like, I'll tell you when I get
to my head. I'm so close. I'm so close, and
so she just kept hearing me chuckle to myself and
she's like ah, and I was like, I'm not telling you. Good.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Well, now I need to feel I like actually want
to investigate a murder with you.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Like I really feel I think i'd be good on
like interviewing portion.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
So like that that's the area law I don't practice
right now. And I'm like, should I be practicing like
civil rights and getting people out of jail that maybe
had wrongfully been convicted? Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah that's a good one and in New York and
like I like to do that type of research. Yah
stuff Yeah interesting, yeah, hold up, So like just say, yeah,
how do here's just questions? Yes, how do cases like
get cracked back open? Is because like, for you example,

(26:31):
you're saying like this freedom of information thing. So we'll
just say I felt something was wrongfully convicted. Yeah, I
start this whole process up. Would I just say contact somebody,
be like, hey, there's something fishy going on here, Just
keep going so and how iron tight does a case
have to be for it to get like convicted or
and when does it become a state department thing? Sure, so,

(26:54):
so many questions.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
Okay, so we're at a very interesting time in our
society right now, and we're going to get to that.
But generally speaking, what happens is and keep in mind
this is not my expertise. Expertise. People get convicted, they
appeal the conviction, and there's different accounts which you can
appeal on, and you could appeal multiple times. You could
say that you didn't have proper representation or a mistake

(27:17):
was made by the jury, and so there's lots of
different ways that you could appeal. And that's why when
you hear some of these documentaries on Netflix, these appeals
are happening over ten, fifteen, twenty years.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
It's sure like the staircase, right.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, DNA evidence DNA technology gets better, and you say, hey,
if we use this DNA technology, we could show that
somebody else did it. And so as there's adjustments and
moves forward in the scientific community, if you could use
that evidence to to get off or to exculpate yourself
and you exculpitate, sculpt exculpate. What's that like to get

(27:51):
off of something? Did I not say the right word?

Speaker 1 (27:54):
No? I think you did, And I just love that word. Now, exculpitate, exculpate,
love that it's so like H formal, I exculpitated myself.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's exculpate. So I hadded an extra and a couple
of extra letters there. But like as technology progresses, like
there's ways that you could test the evidence in the case,
and that's one thing that goes on, and appeals could
happen and take years. Right now, something interesting is happening
as well in our society, and that's because of movements

(28:29):
within the Black Lives Matter community and just like general
civil rights and the amount of convictions that have gone
on since the nineties and the drug wars and things
like that, it's being uncovered that there was there's been
a lot of bad policing where cops and detectives were
over aggressive or or covering up evidence and not about

(28:52):
exchanging evidence. That's called a Brady violation, which is how
adden On said got off or part of how he
got off. And so all these big police departments and
District Attorney's offices in major, more progressive cities like New
York and Baltimore and Los Angeles are now creating these
units where they look at past convictions that they think

(29:15):
might have been improper. So two weeks ago, the Brooklyn
DA's office came out and said, this specific detective who
worked on these cases, there's a lot of wrongdoing surrounding,
and we're gonna dismiss for close to four hundred cases.
Really four hundred.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
That's insane. You wouldn't, like, I get it in like
a small town, right because you would think like everything
is probably owned or operated, everybody knows each other. But
in like a city, I feel like you really got
to be.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Like a yeah, so with I'm a criminals, So with
I'm ed like they this division of the Maryland Police
Department and Prosecutor's Office looked at his case because they
created they recently created this division within the past year
or so.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Really, yeah, it has popping up more places than one. Yes,
these small divisions are being to look at cases.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Look at questionable convictions. And so as they looked at
the specific group as the department, as they looked at it,
they started to see that there was a lot of
things in his case that there was potentially two other
suspects who were not properly investigated. That's one and two
is and the information regarding them was never exchanged his
defense attorney. Wait what Yeah, so there was handwritten notes

(30:35):
in the file of two other potential suspects, including one
of them which told the victim, I'm going to kill
you and make you disappear, and that information was never
given to Anan Said's defense attorney, so they couldn't.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
And that's illegal.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yeah, it's called a Brady Violet. It's a constitutional violation.
So that was one thing that was discovered. And additionally,
they realized that a lot of the science behind quote
unquote science behind his conviction, if you remember, they use
a lot of cell phone tower that is all bogus
and bullshit, and they're like, okay, like, as we get
further into this case, we realize it like it probably

(31:10):
wasn't him.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Because people think with like you watch a detective show,
you watch these shows that they kind of dramatize the
whole situation. The wire really does the best job of
showing you how painstaking details you need to get a
search warrant, right to actually like tap into a phone, Like,
it's not as easy as you think. No, and the

(31:33):
locations that you're quote unquote getting don't actually show you
the exact location, unless it's a find my iPhone where
it literally shows you that you don't do it.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
And it's interesting because now our technology has gotten so
good at pinpointing us, right, because they used to just
use cell phone towers.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
Hey, we were in this general radius or through a
triangular coordination between these three, we think you're closest to you, like,
but now you're is attached to Wi Fi everywhere your
phone like like like it could show when you left
Wi Fi and when you join Wi Fi and so
that with the cell phone towers and there's more cell
phone towers too.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Hold up, So just say I go missing? Uh huh
but the Starbucks on twenty third Street, yeah they I
how would it know? How would it pick me up there?

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Well, if if you connected to Starbucks Wi Fi, like
that's probably in your system. When you walk past there,
it probably registered your device.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
But like if just say I go missing with my phone,
nobody and nobody could get into just say my cloud
or anything. Yeah, that's all completely just gone, right, well.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
You're talking about like your GPS location. Yeah, your GPS
location right now could be found very easily by anybody
in the in the US government.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
But for like your case, just say, like a lawyer
can't be like just say, in a murder trial, can't
say I know they were home. Well, here's the evidence.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
What I would do in that case. And I'm not
a criminal attorney, but I I would subpoena the phone
records from Verizon AT and T and see what type
of records they can give me, and then get an
expert to go and decipher all the coordinates and stuff
like that.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
Wow. Yeah, I honestly am loving every minute of this
because it sounds like you get to be a detective.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah, and just.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Keep looking for things, and I really enjoy that.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah. And some things are easy to find and some
things are hard to find, and sometimes you don't find
things at all, and that's very frustrating. Yeah, dead ends
that dead ends are extremely frustrating, and they unfortunately happen.
Like I know you say, don't I said, don't take
no for an answer, But sometimes like the information just
literally doesn't exist, Yeah, And that happens. Sometimes people destroy
the information.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
And then I want to go even further, Yeah, and
figure out why out did you watch the staircase.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
I did watch the staircase.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
You think he's innocent or guilty.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
I think he's innocent. I believe the owl theory. I thought, wait,
what the owl theory? Okay, I did not believe the
owl I believe the owl.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
You really think an owl like scraped up her face,
and I do made her fall down the stairs.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
It is such an unbelievable set of circumstances, right, but twice,
well the first.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
Time, so you think there was a murder the first time.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
No, I don't think there was a murder the first time.
I think that that it just so happened m hmm,
that he had been there both times or in the proximity.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, because the second time it was kind of loose.
Well also, like where the first time was a loose
set of circumstance.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
So they they let the evidence of the first time
come in for the second time right at trial. So
it's like, did that taint the jury? Like yeah, because
they were like oh twice yeah, yeah, yeah, and so
like then you're like, oh, okay, but like its possible,
it's possible. You think he killed her, I don't, Yeah,
I don't, yeah, but I.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
Also am confused, like I think, I know she just
didn't fall down the stairs, but what if she did
I do that? But the injuries kind of are they're
that's the thing.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
They're very very weird injuries, right, Like, look like if
he struck her on the head with something.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
But then there was the fire poker or whatever it
was that came back into play. I can't kill anyone
the fire poker, not with the injuries that they said
it did, like it just.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
The fire poke. In my mind, that fire poker weighs
like I don't know, under ten pounds, true, So that's like,
how is he going to kill her? And like why
would he grab the fire poker? There's knives and so listen,
if he did kill her, and I don't think he did,
it would have been a crime of passion, right, So

(35:42):
he didn't think, Oh, I'm gonna set this whole thing
up and kill her and throw her down the stairs
like that would.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
Be that's a murder. Homicide or crime of passion is
in the moment, right, This wasn't planned, this wasn't premeditated.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
This was not premeditated, So if he's going pre meditated
or not premeditated, you think he is going to the
fireplace to grab the fire poker and not to the
kitchen to grab a knife.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
You're right, And.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
I think the fireplace was right next to the kitchen, like, dude,
you grab a knife.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah. And also it was like a family heirloom apparently,
which like, first of all, weird family air, very strange,
like who passes fire pokers? It's weird. Yes, Second of all,
you're right.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Like like thin think think about this.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Also, why would you go up the stairs with the
fire poker to then make sure she falls down the
heres and why would you make the injuries on her
face that obvious?

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, the whole thing is like it if it was
if it was premeditated, there were and this was a
smart guy too, Yeah, there were ways to make it
look even more like an accident. So true, and like
instead it's just like bloody mess like yeah, okay, so
if he did it, it's a crime of passion and
he didn't go grab a knife. Yeah, And then like

(36:53):
the whole thing with the micro feathers and the hair,
like I I think that why not the owl theory,
it just is so insane to me to believe that
an owl flew in.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
It's crazy and caused it. It's crazy, but it's not.
It's not crazy when you like start putting things together,
because then it starts sounding like, yeah, maybe it was.

Speaker 5 (37:13):
An owl that flew in, Like is that they were
on a woodsy property, and so okay, let's just like
weigh it out. So you have an injury to her
head which didn't fracture her skull, and it's basically the
only murder in the state that's ever taken place where
there's head trauma without a fracture of the skull, which

(37:36):
is like one in I don't want to say one
in a million, because like there's been less than a
million murders I would hope in the state. But like,
there's a small likelihood that that could happen versus a
small a likelihood that an owl could have done it.
There's a small likelihood of both of them. So why
would we say that to the.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Injury If I'm understanding this correctly, Basically, she fell down
the stairs. Yeah, she had injuries to her head, but
her actual like skull didn't break her skull.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
There was no fracture of her skull.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
So she had head trauma, meaning like she got hit
with something, but it wasn't hard enough to actually break
her skull.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Superficial scratches and abrasions and slices in her head, but
her skull wasn't fractured.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yeah, that seems so weird.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
How would her skull not be fractured if he is
beating the crap out of her like you first saw?
Like why would he do it with a fire polker? Yeah,
and like if he wanted to kill her, like, why
wouldn't he have grabbed a knife. It's a bloody mess. Anyway,
he calls nine one one. He's at the scene.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Okay, I now want to do a murder podcast with
you because I want to break down some of the
murders that I have questions on. And I feel like
you're the one, the intelligent one in the podcast, and
I'm the one who kind of just like asks a
bunch of questions that people are like, wow, that guy
has a lot of questions.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
Well, I pretend to know what I'm talking about, but
like I, like, you know ninety nine percent of it.
I know a good amount.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
I know how to ask a good question.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
And I know how to bullshit a good answer.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
So it's perfect but scotty on the cereal one.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
But I'm I'm not so sure if if the standards
beyond a reasonable doubt, which it is for a criminal case,
beyond a reasonable build out means like you're really close
to one hundred percent positive, well see this is not
one hundred percent but pretty damn close.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
And that's where I felt like he shouldn't have been
convicted because in my head, I'm like, you still left
the door completely open. I thought the defense did a
pretty decent job of leaving, like leaving some seed of
doubt there.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
The thing is, what they relied on was the seed
of doubt. But juror's like answers to questions. Right, So
even though the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, in
my case is the standard is more likely than not.
It's fifty zero point five percent fifty one percent if
you tip. If I tipped the scales ever so slightly

(39:58):
in my favor, then I'm supposed to win my case.
But jurors don't look at it that way. Even though
the judge tells them that, and I tell them that,
and I remind them of that, they still look at
the case and say, okay, but I want answers, right, Okay,
if he didn't do it, then who did, Like give
us an answer. People want answers, especially now we have
so much information flowing our away that like people want

(40:19):
more and more and more information, and they want answers
to questions. They don't want open ended things. So like
in personal injury in civil cases, one of the things
that it is interesting that's a kind of theme here
that's happening is like jurors don't just want to know
why the defendants were negligent or why they and what

(40:41):
they did which would show that they were negligent. They
want to know why they did it. They want to
know what the motive is. So when a big when
a big drug company releases a drug to the market
and they make the and and they're selling the product
even though they know that that specific drug could cause
a heart heart attack or it can cause DVT or

(41:02):
blood clots. Even if you prove to a jury that
they knew, which is you you want your you're supposed
to win your case, that the jury still wants to
know why why they released it, why that they released
it even though they knew it was going to hurt
people and the and the answer is almost always the
same thing, which is money.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Hmm okay, yeah, I mean it's right there.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, it's the root of all evil.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah. Geez, Now I want to find other murders that
I have questions on. Do you think OJ did it?

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Okay, just checking, Yeah, he did it, and then he
hired one of the best lawyers to defend because they
created doubt. Yeah, and they did a great job.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah. But see that's what I was feeling like in
the staircase, like that doubt existed, and it was like
very OJ to me in the sense that like again
with OJ, after you watched I don't know, did you
watch the Maiden America Special?

Speaker 2 (41:54):
No so good?

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, six hours. It's a great six hours of your time.
Highly recommend ever want to watch it. But you see
the doubt that they put into it, and they did
such a good job.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
And also you have to keep in mind that there's
certain things that work against certain people in certain situations.
So like the judge who's assigned to the case, they're
the gatekeeper of information. They tell you what can and
can't go into a case. So there were certain things
in the staircase case that came in that maybe another

(42:29):
judge wouldn't have let in true, and that could have
changed his possible conviction or the outcome of the case.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
Plus it's a high profile case.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
But with OJ he had Johnny Cochran, who's like now
unfortunately passed away, but was like a living legend when
he was in five, like was the best attorney that
like money could buy at the feeling, and he had
an entire team of lawyers.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
True.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
So when you take that, even if you're to look
at the guy from the staircase who still had a
lot of money, it wasn't you know, six lawyers deep.
It was two or three of them. But still, you know,
let me just say this before like we finish this,
because I've.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Had one more commercial and then I have another question.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
I have so many questions. I would be remissed to say,
and it would be wrong to say if I didn't
include the amount of people who don't get good legal
representation that the United States. And that's not a political
point I'm making. It's the god's honest truth that many
of the people that are arrested for certain crimes happen

(43:34):
to be people of that are lower class and can't
afford legal representation. They end up with a legal aid
attorney who are great attorneys, but they're bombarded with cases
and they don't necessarily get the defense that they deserve
and end up taking please even if they didn't do it,
and they could, And a lot of people end up
in jail. Not a lot of people, but people end
up in jail enough people where it's like where it's

(43:56):
a problem exactly where they didn't they didn't do it,
but they don't have the money to put on a
proper defense.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, I mean it kind of sounds like attorneys. It's
kind of a lot about like storytelling, Like you have
to figure out how you're going to put on not
necessarily a show, but a show to a degree where
it's like this is the this is what you've given me,
and then I have to kind of improve it out
and say like they could have been here, they could

(44:25):
have done this, and creating the narrative where it's not
just a like on paper just say like with an
OJ clearly killed. However, once I start introducing all these things,
you can't say that because so it's funny, it's now
all these pieces in the puzzle.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
You just mentioned two really key words right there, And
this is what makes a great trial attorney is storytelling
and improv. Improv is extremely important. You go into a
trial and you don't know really what's gonna happen. The
judge could let information in or not let information in.
You can have a witness that lies on the stand.

(44:59):
You could have ainess that give you they give you
a yeah, So you need to be prepared for everything.
But keep in mind, like at the same time, you're
telling a story from the beginning to the end, yea.
And the story's got to make sense. And people are
like a story. When you give somebody information and you're like, oh,
it's all over the place and you're disorganized and you're

(45:20):
just feeding them information, people can't understand or comprehend it.
But when you tell them within the bounds of a story,
they understand what's going on. And so storytelling is probably
the greatest strength of a trial attorney. And I like
to think I'm an okay storyteller. I don't know, I
could be terrible for all I know, but.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
No, I've been fascinating this whole time, Like I have
so many questions and I feel like they're just able
to be answered. It's great because it's like, you know
what they.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Do, I'm a jack of all trades, master of none. Listen.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
I love it because there's so many murder cases that
have questions on. I'm gonna now text you after I
watch Murder Specials. Sure there's a that I would like
to do some investigating into. I actually have one case
in particular, Yeah, that I've heard through another friend who's
an attorney, that they know the person did it and
they think there's some shady business going on behind the scenes.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
So that's definitely possible. Also, can I tell you another
really good resource to like bounce stuff off of, Like
the reddit boards for these things are fantastic. Really, yeah,
they're great. I mean if you go on too, like
the staircase reddit board, it's it's so good. And some
of the people on there, you're you're like, oh, like
it's just someone like lurking on Reddit and some idiot
Like No, there's people that get obsessed, yeah, with these.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Shows and with the forensic analysis.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
And they do their own and some of the things
that they come up with are incredible, like absolutely, and
these are people that are just like true crime fans. Yeah,
so the boards are an excellent resource if you are
watching a show and you want to learn more, it's
the reddit.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Go to Reddit. Reddit's awesome, I'm telling you. Yeah, it's
a good one.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
I love Reddit.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Same.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
In between the trolls and weird comments, you get you
get some good resources.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
I'll say that you got to go to the right
red Yeah, and it's.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
A search, but you get there.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Wow. Yeah, I'm now shocked that you didn't win Survivor.
I feel like you're a great storyteller.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
You saw my season I did. It was I had
a difficult boot.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Yeah, what happened with yours?

Speaker 2 (47:18):
We were at a four to four split and they
gave a one of my enemies a vote block, and
she blocked my vote and then it turned it into
a four to three and then I got voted off.
Yeah that ain't right, No, it was, it was. It was.
It was a laughable way to go at because even

(47:40):
when the votes were being read, I was just laughing
to myself. I was like, what am I supposed to
do in this situation?

Speaker 1 (47:45):
What are your chances?

Speaker 2 (47:46):
It was a four to four split For people that
don't know, and uh, there was a swap, and I
was with part of my original four and then four
people on the other side, and we made a tribe
of eight. And it was at four to four, and
we had convinced the other tribe to at least two
of them to switch over to us immediately, so it
was gonna be six to two or seven to one.

(48:06):
But then they gave her the vote block, and then
the numbershipped it quickly and they were like, oh, we
could beat them now, like we're not gonna flip.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Oh that sucks.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah, but I don't love that.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
I feel like you would have bline.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Well, you're best friends with the guy that did.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
Win, Yeah, yeah, But I mean I feel like that
would have been an interesting final two between you two.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
Oh, it would have been really fun to go back
and forth in terms of who played a better game.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Yeah, because Tommy can argue he was.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Scared of me.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Oh he was.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yeah, he was scared of you, he said. He says
it to this day. Thank god you got voted off
there so I didn't have to vote you off because
it could have ruined our friendship. You know, Tommy and
I are very close to Yeah, like, but geez, I
don't know. You never know who could have won. But
I started off the game really poorly, really really poorly.

(48:55):
I made some mistakes at the beginning of the game,
and so I would have had a good story to
tell at the end and said I was the easiest
first vote ever and you can let me stick around.
And now I'm here. Yeah, and like I'm not here
just because I like roade coattails, like you all came
to me for advice, like I pulled my strings and
I ended up sitting here.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Geez. But well, if there's ever another second, chances and
I feel like you'd be perfect for it. No chance,
no chance, zero chance, zero chance. Okay, well my brain,
you can have my spot. Okay, great, Yes, well I
can't even get on, so maybe one.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Of these one day one. Don't give up.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
You're so true.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Don't give up.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
Yeah it's only been five years, but it's fine.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Don't give up.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
But no, this was super interesting, Yeah, extremely fascinating.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
I hope you enjoyed the story.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
I need murder cases, yeah, to bring up to you now, okay,
because I want to see it broken down for me.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Okay, I know something is guilty.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Yeah, I want to know why it's guilty, and if
it's not guilty, I want to know why. Yeah, because
I'm gonna be the idiot who sees it as the
cut and dry one and I need the Netflix documentary
to it down. But even Netflix documentaries, I have to say,
sometimes they get a little carried away.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Yes, And also one of the issues when it comes
to like crime is you have people that are really
passionate one side or another side, right, and it's very
difficult for some people to take an honest look at
the facts and make a determination of like true will happened. So, like,
one of my friends is a public defender, and if

(50:28):
she sat in this chair right now and she explained
everything to you, she would have been like, there's no
way he did it, blah, and like would have like
argued it and argued it passionately and eloquently. But at
the same time she would it would have been the
under there would have been underpinnings of bias, right, And
so I'm a little step away from it. I don't
really do criminal stuff. I do injury cases. So like

(50:51):
I like to always take a look at like, Okay,
these are the facts, what's the law, what's the likelihood
of certain things happening, rather than just to argue a
position because that's my occupation or job.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
Well, it's interesting because law is kind of like a
doctor in that regard that you kind of pick what
you like. Yes, in like, are you more of a
contract lawyer, are you more of like an injury attorney?
Or do you want to do more public defending because
the public defender is probably extremely different arguing style, storytelling,
all that from what you do.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yes, So you see I'm battling against the bias of
the public. Even when we were recording with Scotty, I
hear ambulance chaser and all these things. Yes, right, And
everyone thinks that a plaintiff in a personal injury case
is lying. So it's very interesting like.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
During your starting off like a step behind.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Always starting a step behind, crazy, and so you have
to and the defendants use that to their advantage.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
Right.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
The main defense on almost all these cases are that
my clients are liars, cheats, and frauds. Geez, you want
to know how I address that? On my opening statement,
I stand up and say, I'm just going to tell you.
I don't know what the defense is going to say
in this case, but I have a feeling. Their defense
is going to be that my client's a liar, a cheat,
and a fraud. So that's what this case is going
to come down to. So you need to decide that
for yourself. Yeah, like just call it out, Like they're

(52:06):
not gonna come up and stand up and say that
she's a liar, a cheat or a fraud, but you
better read between the lines, and that's what they're gonna
be telling you exactly. So you have to decide are
they lying or are they cheating because and I for them,
I submit to you that they're not. But that's gonna
be up up to you to decide.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
Wow, wow, wow, fun stuff.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
I love this.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Yeah, it's really fun.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
This was so fine.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
I love being a lawyer, Yes, love it so fine.
And I like being able to have a podcast, so
this is great.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Well, if there's any murder that you could think of
that you want maybe Jason to break down, yeah, please
send it or post it in the comments below if
you aren't watching on YouTube, or send a DM whatever, because.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
Even civil cases like sometimes those like you know, there's
businesses with families and who's right and who's wrong and
things like all all these things are interesting, and I
think it's really helpful to just like spread knowledge so
people have like a real, actual understanding of what's going on.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Yes. So again, I'm like pitbullish in that way where
it's like, if there's what you're saying, like a crack
of doubt, I want to figure it out. Yeah, And
so this helps me because I feel like I now
believe the owl theory could very much be true.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Why not? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (53:20):
Why not?

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (53:21):
Why not?

Speaker 2 (53:22):
I'm like, I think that would raise sufficient reasonable doubt
if it had been presented properly to a jury.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
Wow, and let's end it there. Yep, thank you guys
so much for listening. Watch the subscribe button somewhere on YouTube,
like and comment you know all the things the Serial
Killers PC. We're gonna be back on Monday. I don't
know with what episode. That's Scott's job, but yeah, thank
you for another bonus episode.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Jason, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
And yeah, we'll do a murder one again.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah, or maybe we'll do a Muppets one. Yes, we
don't know where it's gonna go.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
It's gonna go south real quick. Something tells me we're
gonna figure it out all right, See that's that diabetes
that sounds fun. Alright, we're gonna end there.