Did America’s Next Top Model Ruin Lives?

In this episode, Gandhi talks with America’s Next Top Model Cycle 9 contestant, Sarah Hartshorne, about what it was like behind the scenes on the show that traumatized generations of young women. We also have a bit of an argument when Gandhi and Diamond uncover some scandalous behavior from Andrew.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Well, well, well, sauce on the side episode. I have
no idea, but it starts with a seven. Where to
begin diamond? Where do we begin?

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Elsk?

Speaker 1 (00:17):
No, that's called where do I begin?

Speaker 3 (00:19):
Here we go? Didn't you work on the book? Like,
didn't you help promote it? And you don't know the name?

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Great? Where do we begin? Diamond?

Speaker 3 (00:26):
We should begin with the fact that Andrew is a lunatic.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Oh that's a nice one about it. So here's what
had happened by the time you hear this. This may
have already been addressed on the big show. But this
little rat fink Andrew that we call a rat all
the time, pulled some rat shit the other day. What
did he do? You ask, Well, we ordered breakfast. Breakfast
took forever to get here, because of course it always does,
because there are like thirty people ordering breakfast arrives, we

(00:53):
have guests. We can't bring the food in here and
eat it. That's just rude, so we leave it out there. Well,
the day moves on and I had to leave it.
I even took a little piece of a croissant and
I put it on a plate with the bag, and
I was like, I'm coming back to get this. Andrew
claims he did not hear this. I come back from
this long lunch thing that we had to do, and
all I'm looking forward to is taking my chicken and

(01:13):
going home and eating it. Because it's banging chicken. I
go to get the bag. The bag's empty, but it's
not as if somebody had cleaned up, because the bags
were there. So somebody just went in and took the
chicken out and ate the chicken. So I'm like, what
the where's my chicken? The chicken is gone. I was
fuming about it. Our intern Bend is like, dude, I

(01:34):
have no idea. That's crazy. Who would do something like that?
That's really weird. I was like, broke ass people around here.
I don't know nothing. I said to Andrew Andrew, somebody
ate my chicken. And Andrew's like, that's crazy, Oh my god,
who would do that? Okay, So I like try to
do conduct my own little investigation for a short amount
of time. I get nowhere. Josh comes in today. Just
talking to him. He's like, give me a hug. I

(01:55):
give him a hug and he says, your chicken was
so good. I said, what what did you just say?
And He's like, yeah, Andrew ate your chicken. I said, wait,
Andrew et it or you ate it? And he was like, well,
Andrew had it, and he brought it in here and
gave it to me. So Andrew took the chicken knowing
that it was mine, and he's gonna say, I didn't
know it was yours. All he had to do was
look at the order to see who it was. Also,
he saw me put it in a bag, ate the chicken,

(02:18):
distributed the chicken, looked me in the face and lined
about it. What should we do to him, diamond Ooh.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
I almost said something that may need to be edited out.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Doesn't need to be go ahead, hang him Andrew? What
say Hugh about this?

Speaker 2 (02:36):
I didn't know it was your chicken. I checked the
receipt afterwards, thinking like, oh, it's there, but they didn't
list anything. So I just saw a bag. I saw,
is this chocolate thing you're saying, the half of the croissant? Yes,
the thing that just sat on my desk, yes, okay,
So it wasn't even no I moved it to the bag.

(02:57):
I didn't even see it. What I sa too, I
did not touch that. That was not my tribe anyway,
it was also gone before the chicken was gone, just flenning, you.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Know, anyway, no bearing on what you did.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Totally. I admit that I shouldn't have ate the food.
I just thought, no, no.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
No, no, no, no, you've wildly missed the point. I
don't care that you ate the chicken.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
I lied about you.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
I share my food with everyone, do I not? I
walk around, Hey, who wants them? Anyone wants them. I
don't care you ate the chicken. I'm glad you ate
the chicken, especially if you're starving and you know, homeless,
whatever was going on. Glad that you ate the chicken.
I'm happy you didn't go to waste the lying about it.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
You sound like my mom after I drove a car
illegally because you're a.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Little shitbag for doing these things.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Everything, Well, she said, I'm not mad, I'm just very disappointed,
and then she cried, and then I was literally like,
well here we go.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
There will be no tears.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
How do you like shit on your mom for being
disappointed in your actions?

Speaker 2 (03:54):
It feels like the same thing where it's like home
man made worse by the lie.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
What do I say all the time? Di'mon everyone trusts Andrew.
You can't trust Andrew because he's a little lying rat.
Believe chicken.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
It's not the chickens lying about the chicken.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
It's even weird that you lied about chickens.

Speaker 4 (04:16):
Broke behavior, that you're shung up about a chicken that
you didn't even pay for.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
It's not about the chicken principle, it's the principle.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Lying about the free chicken.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
You're trying to deflect your rat actions followed by the
rat lie.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Because you did apology, you go still.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Rat by making it about something that it wasn't. This
is kind of a scary move, and I appreciate it,
but I apologize.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
You didn't like the apology.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
You only apologize because you got caught. When I said that,
you were like, yeah, duh.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Do you want it to be? Do you want a
formal written note?

Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, actually yes I would great, I will.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Do you want to in script? I wrote in script
so it might look real bad.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
I want an apology in cursive, and I also want
the love letter that you never gave me two years ago,
because I think.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
At this moment as well, totally fine.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
I'm just saying I don't think you're gonna have a
lot of people on your side here. I know, an
opportunity when I was like so many in my chicken to.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Just be like, yeah, it was mean because I think crime.
Josh wasn't gonna rat. And then what does he do
the first thing he sees he's the rat. You know
that if the shoe was on the other foot and
I did it, he would have been like what the
fuck man? And I still would have been in the
sea shop. I believe you, I still would have been
in the same shoe worse had the.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Shoe been on the other foot. I do think you
would have been in the same situation that that he
is in. But he sort of has immunity here because
he just came to the table and was like, your
chicken was so good, Like he didn't think that you
guys had committed a crime. He just came out there,
you knew you guys had committed a crime, lied about
it about it.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Recruited in turn Ben by the way, on my list,
who better not come back next.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
A bagel? I said, not from you.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
We ate the chicken before we knew it was your chicken.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
What does this matter?

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Doesn't matter, because here's how it went down. I see
the bags there, I'm like, these people do not clean
up after themselves. Let me clean up. I see a
whole thing at the bottom of the bag, and I'm like,
open these people wrapped up then, and so in my head,
and it's happened on more than one occasion, because let's
just say, when it's kid's birthday parties here and we
order forty two thousand things of food, there's often trees

(06:15):
that are just left. Okay, a full food I'm speaking, but.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
I'm speaking, yes, go ahead, kama, I'm speaking.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
So I'm like, so somebody ordered something and just left
it here. So then I open it up. We eat
the chicken, and then running around you and the things,
the elevator doors open like an hour later, and you're like,
someone took my fucking chicken. Yeah, And so then I
was like, oh, oh, it was her chicken. So then
I went to Josh and was like, it was Condy's chicken.
We're screwed. And so I thought we were in a

(06:48):
pact to not say anything. And it turns out he's
a rat.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
If in fact, that's the way it went. Josh is
a rat to you, but to me, he just came
off as very honest in the middle of a hug,
A very nice like he don't worry about the rat.
I here comes Ben, Yeah, Ben, come in here, Come
on in, Ben, bring your ass Come sit over here, Ben,
sit your ass down. You have to talk into the microphone.
I know, yes, Okay, there you go. Not my first day,

(07:12):
it will seemed like it because we weren't talking to
the microphone.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Ben.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Oh wow, I can tell what say you in all
of this? Because Ben says he's an innocent party, that
he didn't do anything.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
Ben was he He was just being.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Loyal to you.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
He was being an innocent party because again, we ate
the chicken.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
If anything one cares that you ate the chicken.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Can you listen? No, I heard you say someone cares. No.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
I care that he lied about the chicken, Ben, and
and you I care that you lied about it. I
don't care that you did it. It's chicken. Say.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
There was like a fierce slice of pizza and you
were like, oh, who's this?

Speaker 4 (07:44):
I'm taking it?

Speaker 1 (07:45):
And then two hours later Andrew comes swimming in, Who
ate my pizza?

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Would you want me to go gandhi?

Speaker 4 (07:50):
Gandhi.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
I would wholeheartedly expect that because I will do that
to any of you. Oh, without a doubt, Ben, how
long do you think I looked around for that chicken?

Speaker 4 (07:57):
Like five minutes?

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Five minutes. I was looking around, I was looking under tables,
I was looking on my desk. I did I put
over here? Did someone throw it away? I was trying
to see in trash cans, which trash can it was in,
so I could blame somebody.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
It was at the one over by the coffee machine.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Didn't look at that trash can. But Ben just watched
me do it, and he was like, oh my god,
who would do that? That's so crazy. So we have
two liars, Ben and Andrew, and one truth teller by default,
who's still an idiot, Josh.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
I just yes, the way it went down was I
didn't know whose chicken it was, and then it just
so had happened that the elevators doors opened and it
was you, And I was like, I am so screwed.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
You would have been screwed at all. If you were
just like, oh, I didn't think you're gonna eat it,
ate your chicken, I'd be like, all right, no, no, yes,
if you ate it, I wouldn't care if you lie
about it. Now I have trust issues with you, which
I had anyway, so this just confirms it.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, pretty much all over chicken.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
But it's not about the joh No, it's not about
the chickens. And it's not about this time. Domind and
I have a running tab.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
I'm tan If you're chicken letters from two years ago,
than we're good for sure. I just feel like if
you order a meal like keep talk of it. I did.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
I put it in a bag and put it on
the side.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Actually, you put it on Celia's desk.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
Celia doesn't have a dusky desk where no one is
supposed to be.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
But if it was on your desk, I would have known,
so I.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Still would have eaten it.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
No, if it was on your because I would have
known it was yours. This was literally like no one
got their breakfast. This is so weird. This is so
strange to me. I don't get it.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
No, I get why you ate it. I understand why
you ate it. There's no questioning.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
I eat it, and I understand why you're mad about
the lot And.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Why do you keep going back to it's just chicken, because.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
You keep bringing it up as if it's malicious and
it is it's the worst thing that's ever been happening,
and then defaming character in the meantime, you can't.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Assue me when it's true when the thing happened.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
I just think that we are circling the drain because
we know that Andrew lax integrity.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yes are let me tell you something.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
You can't attack anybody else here but me punching peg
let right center, keep it going.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
Absolutely love it so much.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
But we love you so much. No, no lies.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
I rarely ever say that last part. But yes, Diamond,
talk about.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
You.

Speaker 4 (10:17):
Never say, oh, I love you so much, talk about it,
stalk about it.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Okay, you have the lie.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
You do give good hugs, which I said on the
air today too.

Speaker 4 (10:26):
And would give a good hug.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
He does give a good hug because it's cloaked and lies. Diamond,
What were you saying about Anderson technology? He likes it.
You were just talking over.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Her because we went over this a whole two weeks ago.
It's the same story. I lack integrity, I suck, I'm
a liar. After a while, how much more do you
really want me to give?

Speaker 4 (10:49):
I'd rather you get nothing.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
And then I recall a conversation.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
But you'd be like, oh, Andrew, people believe you.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
That's so sad and look, thank you.

Speaker 4 (10:57):
I would never be sad about Oh.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
I was sad about that high school. Yeah, yeah, I
felt bad, but also like, I get it how you
operated in high school. Duh.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Andrew says nothing and the minutie he lies. It's the
worst lie in the world. Over freaking chicken.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Andrew didn't say nothing. Andrew said a lie. I feel
like to protect you. Get out of here, because my
lie was to protect Andrews. He needs the protection for sure.

Speaker 4 (11:28):
Yeah, look at him.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
For this podcast is actually have a guest coming in.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
No.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
I just wanted to get to the bottom of what
the fuck happened here and who is loyal and who
is not? And who's a liar and he's not and
we see two liars and that is okay now we know.
But we still like you guys about love Andrew very much,
Like I will still go to Chili's with you for
so should you want to. But yeah, I just wanted

(11:57):
to know your side of the story.

Speaker 4 (11:58):
Ben, That's all I gotta say.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
I hope you don't lose too many followers over this.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, I have to leave due to a personal situation. Okay, amazing,
Off you go, Ben, Thanks for bringing someone tea.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
We won't forget this. What Okay, So now to our
guest Andrew, how's your blood pressure?

Speaker 2 (12:17):
It's moderate, is it?

Speaker 4 (12:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (12:19):
You look like your about to blow a gasket. Now
there's a tinge of red, some angers, a little steam
coming out the ears. It's a self tanner Okay, okay, Diamond,
you can use words.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
No, I'm shocked, so I'm not even gonna I'm yeah,
I don't shocked by the self tanner line.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
It's hyaluronic acida.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Melt the front, bring the guests in. Actually, our guest
today probably knows a lot about hyaluronic acid because her
name is Sarah Hartshorn. She was on America's Next Top Model.
She was one of the quote unquote plus size models,
which always blows my mind because I think they make
plus size like a six. She has a lot to
say about the show that we all watched it right

(12:59):
looking back? Is it not the most insane show ever?

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Like I actually stopped watching it because Tyra Banks drove
me so crazy with her ridiculous dramatics and the way
she talked to people. I was rooting for you. We
were all rooting for you. When my money yells at
me like this this guy, she laughs me. It was
crazy they would like pick these women apart. Who when
when they say TV adds ten pounds, that is not true.

(13:24):
It adds like thirty people when they come in are
the tiniest people ever. When you see these skinny women
on America's Next Top Model and they're picking them apart,
they were even skinnier than you could ever believe. And
they'd chop off their hair, They wouldn't feed them. They
did all kinds of crazy stuff. The show America's Next
Top Model I think probably caused generational damage. Oh for sure,
people that watched it, without doubt. Now we have her

(13:45):
in here, and she just wrote a tell all book,
which I think is amazing, and I'm really excited to
have her. So I say, we just get to it
and then we can find out her thoughts on Andrew
being a lying rat. Yes, yes, I'm here with Sarah Hartshorn,
formerly of America's Next Top Model, and I have a
million questions for you. Thank you for joining me, thank

(14:07):
you for having me. I hope I have a million answers.
I think you do, because all of them have to
do with your time on the show and your opinions
of what the fuck that show even was, because I
definitely was one of the people that watched it and
have some sort of trauma from it in some capacity,
clearly not as much as you because you were actually
in it.

Speaker 4 (14:26):
You know, it's it's not a competition. The early aughts
came for us all, you know what I mean, and
really no one was spared.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
The fashion alone was wild, even though I kind of
do despite the fact that I weren't very high jeans
at the moment. I'm not opposed to bringing the low
rise jeans.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
Back, honestly, and I hated all that fashion at the time.
I was like, I'm cool, like I'm not going to
wear that stuff, and now I'm like, no, I kind
of love it though, Like I did little butterfly clips
the other day.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
And I was like, oh wait, okay, but they kind
of sluck of.

Speaker 4 (14:53):
This is kind of so fun, Like, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
So you recently released a book called You Want to
Be On Top, a memoir of takeovers, manipulation, and not
becoming America's next top model. The title alone makes me
want to read all of it, But let's start at
the beginning. What got you there to audition, to do this?

Speaker 4 (15:10):
To audition for the show. I had a friend who
talked me into it. He was the first person I
met in college and we are still friends to this day.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Okay, So even though he exposed you to this and
kind of give us you to go on and do
this thing.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
That look, I wouldn't do the show again, and I
think it should have happened differently. But I don't regret
going on the show, and I certainly don't regret Yeah,
him talking me into it. It changed my life in
a lot of ways, good and bad.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
And you try out, you get a call back, they
say hey, you want to be on top, and then
you head out to where was your house?

Speaker 4 (15:44):
Our house was in La We shot the first episode
in Puerto Rico, so they flew us out to Puerto Rico.
We didn't know where we were going until we got
our plane ticket. It was very mysterious, very cloak and dagger.
And then yeah, we arrived. They fly us to I
mean they shuttle us off to a hotel where we
stayed for a couple of days doing crazy, rigorous testing
and then after the first episode, they narrowed us down

(16:07):
from I think thirty three to the thirteen that were
in the house in La Okay.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
When you say crazy rigorous testing, what is that like?

Speaker 4 (16:13):
Like medical testing?

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Oh wow?

Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah, like they drew my blood in a hotel room
in Puerto Rico. That sounds so sketchy, right, I assume
I was a doctor. He was wearing a lab coat.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
You've been cloned on another planet somewhere, ohefully.

Speaker 4 (16:26):
They have my hair, they don't have my pee.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Okay, but they that would have excluded anyone. I think
they probably would have appreciated if people were like strong
the fuck out, like come on, well, so we were.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
Actually we did not get to talk very much at
all in those first early days. There were a bunch
of us. I think there were about fifty girls that
got narrowed down to the ones that made it to
the first episode, and we weren't allowed to talk for
most of the time, like we just had to sort
of sit in silence. But there was like one little
window after the medical testing, after we'd all like, yeah,
given blood and they I had hadn't peed because I

(16:59):
had like just peede, and so I was like I'm sorry,
I can't pay in this cop and they were like, yeah,
we'll get to it later. They never did, which is fine,
but we were like all guessing, like what are they
looking for? You know what I mean? Because one girl
was like, I think I still have ecstasy in my
system and one girl was like, I definitely have smoked weed.
And they did the hair test because this was back
when Britney Spears had just shaved her head, so we

(17:19):
all knew that there was a test you could do
on hair. We were all like experts, were yea, yeah, yeah, yea, yeah.
They took the hair. They took the hair, so it's
probably for weed. And we were all guessing. I was
a goodie two shoes at the time, and so I
was like, I think I'm good, Like I don't have anything.
But one girl was like, do you think that they'll
care if there's cocaine? Like we were all trying to

(17:40):
figure it out and we have no idea what they
were looking for or what they weren't.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
So now you've gone through the testing, you become one
of the thirteen and we enter the house. Yes, and
now you're in a house with twelve other women who
also want to be models. Yes, and I from what
I read, it was very bizarre the way they made
you guys even interact with each other or not. Everything
was recorded from the time that you guys woke up,
you put on microphones before you could even say hello, yep,
And then if you wanted to have any type of

(18:04):
secret conversation, you had to sing Disney songs over so
that they couldn't play it on TV.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
I mean we didn't have to, but we definitely did.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, you figured out that was our Yeah, that was
our work around.

Speaker 4 (18:14):
We would sing Disney songs or slogans or I now
know we could have just sung like regular songs. I
don't know why. In our head we were like Disney
is the Ultimate and so yeah, we would do a
lot of like Hakuna Matada. And if we were not
being filmed, it's called being on ice and you're not
allowed to speak. We had to be just totally silent.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
That sounds insane. I mean at this point as an
adult now look back on it and be like, you know,
they hurted us into this house, they wouldn't really feed
us because that was another thing, right, you only got
what thirty eight bucks a day, thirty seven dollars or seven.

Speaker 4 (18:47):
Dollars which we had to use to pay for our
own food.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
How was the alcohol situation? Were you allowed to drink
in there? Did they supply you with alcohol?

Speaker 4 (18:53):
If you were over twenty one, you were allowed to
use that money to buy alcohol, which I think it
was Ambryel, Salicia and Janet we're we're over twenty one.
The rest of us were all under twenty one. They
would absolutely allow that. They said that they could. They
only did once because none of them were really big drinkers.

(19:15):
But I did hear that when they were in China,
which has a younger drinking age, they did have alcohol.
And I know on other cycles they would like go
out to eat and they would be like, if you're
over twenty one, you can order drinks, and if you're
under twenty one, you can ask someone to order drinks
for you if you want.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
That sort of encouraged a little bit of the a
little bit of courage.

Speaker 4 (19:35):
And I'm partially wondering if they were doing that, because
they kind of tried. They were like, if you guys
want to buy alcohol, you can, and they were just
sort of like, not really, and so I think they
were like, man, we got this group where the only
like over twenty one girls aren't big drinkers, Like we
got to like figure out a work around.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
I mean that makes you a great reality TV. Any
little food, a lot of alcohol women competing against each
other for a modeling contract, and then you throw tire
Banks and a few other crazy judges in the mix.
Well could possibly go wrong, you know, And.

Speaker 4 (20:01):
In a lot of ways. They absolutely nailed it because
it was great TV and that was their goal. And
I mean, I actually have a lot of trouble watching
reality shows because I look and I'm like, I know
that if I could have been I would have been
drunk the whole time. Like if it had occurred to
me to break the rules in that way or like
make it happen, I would have been absolutely trashed. I
didn't have I didn't have a prefrontal cortex, Like I
was like, give me something, you know what I mean,
give me some tool like to cope with this. I

(20:25):
would have been drunk and I would have said terrible,
stupid things.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
So you didn't end up making it to the end.
You spoiler We're a slary spoiler alert for season nine
and America, I know you made it to what you
were eliminated.

Speaker 4 (20:38):
Eighth, yeah, seventh, eighth yeah, seventh. I think.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
But before we talk about that, I didn't mention that
you actually came onto the show as a quote unquote
plus size model. Yes, can we talk about what size
and actual plus size model is the real world, because
what the average American woman is a twelve or fourteen is?

Speaker 4 (20:57):
Yeah, the average American woman is a size fourteen, and
plus size modeling does not reflect that reality. I always
like to say I was a plus size contestant on
America's Next Up Model. Then I worked for many years
as a plus size model. Then I quit modeling, gained
a bunch of weight, became a plus sized person. Okay,
weird how those weren't the same, Okay. And I could
go on and on about how the plus size industry

(21:17):
has changed a lot. But when I was on the show,
they made a really big deal about how I was
too small. They were like, oh, you're too small to
be a plus size model, Like, what are you going
to do?

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Do you mind if I asked what size you were?

Speaker 4 (21:25):
Not at all? I was a size eight.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
I'm sorry, No, I was size small because you're just
a normal pers I was also five eleven, you know,
and eight at five eleven. By the way, I know
women are going to completely understand these sizes, but if
any of the dudes are listening, I am five foot.
A lot of people comment immediately on how small they
think I am when they meet me. Oh oh my god,
you're tiny. And these pants right here are size four,

(21:48):
So you were a foot taller than me and a
size eight.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
And also a lot of the women listening who have
done any shopping will know I was a size eight
for the most part. I was also in size ten
twelve six. I had some size for it. Yeah, so,
because women's clothing is chaos, but purposely purposely I mean
after the show, I did do some fit modeling, which
is when you are like the designer's mannequin. Basically they

(22:16):
pin the clothes to you. And I was not made
out for it. It's that's a very hard career and
truly shout out to the fit models out there.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (22:24):
And I was also too tall the ideal height. They
like the women to be average, so they make the
clothes to like an average height woman, which I think
is five seven or five eight.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Still so much taller than me. I'll never make it.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
My best friend is four foot six oh no, oh wow, yeah,
I have a.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Few of those in my life too. That we were
standing next to each other like Snookie and Jay Wow, like.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, nope, it's so it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
You just see a different world than we see. Like
you can walk through a grocery aisle or an aisle
and see what's on the other side. Yeah, I walk
through and like you need to attach a balloon to
my collar so that you can find me.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
I don't actually like tall men. I just look best
from above, you know what I mean. Like, it's a
whole It's a whole world. I'm like, what are you
seeing down there? You're just we Actually, my friend and
I did a video where we filmed, like I filmed
what I see and she filmed what she sees. Yeah,
and all I see is like her boobs and all
she sees is like my chin. And I was like,
all right, I'm so glad you don't like me for
my looks because I looked terrible from down there. But yeah,

(23:17):
but so I was. I was the plus size contestant
and then I after the show, I went to pursue
plus sized modeling, and I found out I wasn't too
small at all. Okay, I worked all the time and
it wasn't a problem. And I was really surprised. And
then the girl who was who won cycle ten the
cycle after mine, ended up moving to New York and
also pursuing plus size modeling. She's amazing. Her name's Whitney.

(23:40):
She's beautiful and great, and we had the same measurements.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah okay, And also she sometimes wore different sizes than
I do, so truly, bodies make no sense. But the
it really taught me, I think from a young age,
is like, oh, clothing companies are just trying to sell
you something, and every thought you have about yourself someone
is making money off of. I bring this up a lot.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
I was talking about chat GPT just about like social
media and the use and chat GPT basically said, well,
social media has changed every industry because it capitalizes and
forces you to be in this cycle where you're constantly
comparing yourself to others and you will never feel good enough,
so they capitalize on your insecurity and that's how it
moves forward and makes so much money because all you

(24:24):
see any day is a highlight reel of somebody's best moments.
That is not their life, that is not what they
look like when they wake up in the morning, despite
when they say it ready with.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
Me, I know are they say? Are there like the
Unpeeling video or the Morning sheds No please? I was
big on Morning shed TikTok for a while of these
like influencers being like, let me peel off the insane
contraptions that I sleep in, and I'm like, I think
this is a lot.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
It is a lot, but there are just people out
there waiting to capitalize on it, and we all fall
victim to it and it happens. But America's next top
model was such a catalyst in all of this, And
again I was I told you I had to stop
watching the show because I I found Tyro to be insufferable.
Is she that insufferable in real life? Or was it editing?

(25:06):
I will say a little of Boom I knew it.

Speaker 4 (25:09):
I listen in person. She is one of the most
magnetic people I have ever seen, or encountered or been
around in my life. She you want to look at her,
You want her to look at you, Even when she
was being weird and sort of maybe not making a
whole lot of sense and sort of uh maybe it
was even uncomfortable sometimes, but she's just she's very compelling.

(25:30):
She is how she seems on camera. Okay, Like I
don't really feel like I ever saw the real tyro.
I had a hard time connecting with it because I
was like, this isn't really you. Like, I know you
want to connect with me, but I also know that
you're not. This isn't you know what I mean. She
was like, there was this one moment where she was like, Okay,
the cameras are off. Now it's just as girls. And
I was like, I mean, sure it is, that's true,

(25:53):
you know. And so I was just like, I don't
you know, I don't know you and I can't connect
with you. And that's okay because you're around a lot
of people who are trying to take a lot of
things from you, you know what I mean. Like she's
at the level of fame where everyone she meets is
like transactional, and so I think she's very guarded against that.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
I get that that makes sense, but still insufferable. I
had to shut that off. Do you guys sign NDAs
when you go on this show? So and for a

(26:31):
certain amount of time you cannot talk about it, and
then clearly that has run out for you. Now you
can talk about it. How long is that NDA, or
are you even allowed to say that?

Speaker 4 (26:38):
I am allowed. I think I'm allowed to say that.
And my publishers have an amazing legal team who combed
through the contract very carefully and basically said like, they
probably won't sue you.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
They probably won't. They probably won't, they will, but we can't.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
They won't. Yeah, we can't. Legally, they aren't allowed to
say they definitely won't because they can't care garantee that.
But yeah, a lot of it expired. I think either
three or five years after the last episode of the
show aired. Not my cycle, the show itself okay, and
the show technically was not ever canceled. They just stopped
making it, which is an important legal distinction. So technically,

(27:16):
if they ever start up again, I could be in
legal hot water, but I doubt it. I also would
hope if they started it up again, it would be very.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Different, right, I think that it would be very different,
So they probably will not be starting it up again.
I always assumed that Janie Dickinson was the meanest judge
that ever existed, but you said it was somebody else.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
I did. I thought it was Twiggy. But also Janis
Dickinson was not on my cycle, so I didn't have her.
I didn't have her to deal with. I do think
it's telling that Jane's definitely said what I would argue
were some of the most appallingly egregious things. And maybe
it's editing because you know, Twiggy would say things and
they would edit it in a way where she would
look really sweet.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Huh okay, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (27:56):
She would say something like, oh, I'm really surprised that
this photo is so good. It's really very beautiful, because
you're quite plain in person.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Sorry, and they would just show her saying like, this.

Speaker 4 (28:08):
Photo is really beautiful. I'm quite surprised.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
She was like the Instagram comment section in real life.

Speaker 4 (28:13):
In real life and also yeah, just like just real
mean almond mom behavior, you know what I mean, where
you're like okay, And at one point, yeah, she said like, oh,
I understand why you would be self conscious in that outfit.
You really look like a ham And it was like
mesh netting, you know what I mean. And I was like, cool,
I'm well cool.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
So I didn't feel like a ham until you said
those I.

Speaker 4 (28:30):
Feel like I am now. And then Miss Jay was
like really sweet and said like, oh, that's a nice
cut of hammer, So you know what I mean, Like
it was very it was very sweet. Miss Jay was
just lovely at every turn.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
This was my favorite.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
And also I think Miss Jay would roast you, but
it always felt like it was part of like it
was cultural almost, do you know what I mean? Where
I was like, you can take this, you are dishing it.
There's a back and forth here. The power dynamic feels
a lot less harmful somehow because reading is fundamental and
I think that was sort of what was happening there.

(29:03):
But also, yeah, I do think it's telling that Jannis
Dickinson has gotten this big redemption arc where we're like, yeah,
she said terrible things, but it was just the show,
and I'm like, okay, A, she was a grown woman.
B she said it. And see, like it's telling that
the white woman gets a redemption arc and Tyra bears
a lot of the flag interesting.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
I find them both just oh, one hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (29:22):
I'm not trying to absolve Tyra at all, and it's
it's yeah, I just like I wrote, Like, somebody wrote
an article about the book and they were like, oh
my god, Tyro didn't want to hug the contestants based
on a chapter that I'd written, And I was like,
in that chapter, I do talk about a male executive
threatening physical violence, And what they focused on instead was
that Tyra didn't want to hug everyone. And I was like,
I just I'm noting where the attention goes, you know

(29:45):
what I mean, Like, oh, she didn't want to hug
every single contestant?

Speaker 1 (29:49):
Was that a little I don't want to hug anyone
unless I know them.

Speaker 4 (29:52):
Number one?

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, Now, when you talk about this male executive, let's
talk about that, because why should we let him off
the hook if we're talking about these other people? What happened?

Speaker 4 (30:00):
Uh he If you've ever been on a cruise, you
might have noticed that they play pablom rock uh just everywhere,
all the time, yes, constantly, just in the background, and
they needed it to be off. I can only assume
that there's probably some big Master sound system that they
didn't want to turn off because then the passengers or

(30:20):
the entire cruise, yes, which God forbid you leave a
bunch of cruise passengers alone with their thoughts for two seconds.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
But I don't know, I've been on a lot. I
don't know if you want to do that fair enough.

Speaker 4 (30:30):
I've only been I've only been on well, actually i've
been on the one for the first episode. And then
my husband and I like a couple years later, we
were like, we got to do it. We got to
go on a cruise, because like that can't be your
only cruise, you know what I mean, you have to
like actually swim in a pool, sit in them needed it,
it really needed it, and we did it. And I
was like, Okay, I see, I see the appeal, Like

(30:51):
this is fun. The islands are definitely the best part.
But I was like, yeah, redemption arc for the cruise,
but yeah, And he was just losing his because obviously
they didn't want the music in the background of the shot,
and so they were trying to get them to turn
off the music. They didn't want to turn off the music,
and he was like, I will rip it out and
chuck it at you, like get it the fuck off

(31:12):
or and he was just screaming at the top of
his lungs in a way where like I come from
a pretty volatile family. But I had like, never really
seen someone like really in a professional setting like it felt.
It almost felt like I was watching him on TV,
you know what I mean. I was like, this is
good TV, Like this is this is what the viewers
want to see, Like, let's flip those cameras around, but

(31:34):
you can't because they had the music on.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
You Do you name that person in the book?

Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (31:38):
I did. It was Ken Mock. Okay, I don't think
I'm the first or the last to say the Kenmuck screamed.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
I bet you're not. And I'm sure that ever since
you were on America's Next Up Model and then you
went into the modeling industry, you've seen a lot more
screaming and threats of physical violence because if we're being real,
the entertainment industry it's just rife with these crazy people.

Speaker 4 (31:57):
Gosh, you know, I was in plus sized catalog model
and I also worked a lot in Germany, and German
professional settings are really aggressively polite and wow.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
So no, so it's just us Andrew that we're dealing with.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
But when I got into comedy and people will be like, oh,
it's the fashion industry, so creepy, wh're photographers creepy? And
I was like, no, comedians are creepy. Because then I
got into comedy. I was like, oh, a're freaking creeps.
What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (32:25):
Comedians are creepy and they're very dark, very dark. Yeah,
you have specific comedians that you remember being creepy.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
Yeah, I mean, uh, it's yes. But also like at
an open mic in the Lower in a basement on
the Lower East Side where like someone's asleep in their
beer in the corner, like who cares? Do you know
what I mean?

Speaker 1 (32:42):
Like creepy?

Speaker 4 (32:43):
Yeah, I will say yeah I did. One of my
very early experiences was with a man who was about
I don't know, one hundred and forty and I was
like twenty two. His name is Jeffrey Gurian, and he
was so creepy to me. He was like, yeah, I'm
gonna help you write jokes. It was the old classic,
like we should let's write together, Like, let's write jokes.
I can coach you in hotel room literally, and he

(33:04):
was pressuring me to drink a lot of alcohol and
I was like, I'm really good, I'm okay, that's actually
not part of my writing process, thank you.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
No, we're real quickly when we're talking about your writing processes,
because you've also done comedy, You've gotten into comedy.

Speaker 4 (33:16):
It's not like he was writing this for your No, no, no, yeah,
this was this was when I first started stand up comedy.
And yeah, and he was going to help me write jokes,
which I assume he does. I've never seen evidence of it,
but I assume he writes jokes. And yeah, So yeah,
I did stand up comedy. That's what I transitioned to

(33:37):
after modeling, because I really I hate a steady paycheck,
you know what I mean, That's what I hate.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
And it seems like you're just like living on the
verge of shitting your pants at any given moment, because
stand up comedy is terrifying. So my hat's off to you.
We're doing two things that would scare the crap out
of me, one of which I do want to do
at some point, but I'm not going to go to
that guy to help me write jokes.

Speaker 4 (33:55):
Oh yeah, don't do it. Yeah yeah, zero stars, but
zero stars.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yes, did you encounter because I've heard a lot of
and this is all very much rumor, I don't know
if it's true, but that people would wait for these
cycles of America's Next Hop Model to be done, and
then there was like a circle in Hollywood that would
try and hang out with them and get them to
go to parties and do all kinds of stuff with them.
Is that true?

Speaker 2 (34:14):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (34:15):
Interesting?

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Maybe?

Speaker 4 (34:16):
I Unfortunately, after the show went back to the East Coast.
Because I'm from Massachusetts, I was going to school in Boston.
I transferred to a school in New Jersey so I
could work in New York. Okay, so I was like
living in New Jersey trying to model in New York.
And also, honestly, when I went to modeling agencies, they
were like, you have short hair, and we can't have

(34:36):
a plus sized model with short hair. Come back in
a year when your hair is long.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Don't get me started on the haircufts.

Speaker 4 (34:41):
The haircuts.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
The haircuts were so atrocious.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
I know.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
They had these women come in with the most beautiful, long,
like curly, wavy hair and Tyro would be like, I
am going to make you a star. Shave it, shame
are you crazy? That was what especially in the day
and age of like I mean, I guess now you
could put wigs on, which they did a lot of times.
And then I would sa, why would you shave that
person's head and then put them in a wig?

Speaker 4 (35:02):
Also like traumatize them they gave I remember they had
to shave Bianca's head and they were like, we're gonna
give you a medical grade wig. And I was like,
what grade?

Speaker 2 (35:12):
What?

Speaker 4 (35:13):
Where's the doctor? What doctor is prescribing a medical grade wig?
Like that's not like just get a lace front, do.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (35:19):
Like they exist, you can you don't have to bring
doctors into this. You can just get a wig, you know,
or you could have not shaved your head, or you
could have not shaved her head. And it also was
so bad. It looked so bad. It looked like a wig.
And I was like, what are you doing?

Speaker 1 (35:30):
A wig prescribed from a hospital, a ply.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
From a hospital. Get someone who knows how to lay
down a wig like that? That's a degree I would
like to see, is someone who knows how to install
a wig? Like what are you doing?

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Let me get somebody who does wigs.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
Not a nurse, right, like no one has called for
a doctor. Why are you bringing them in? And it's
it's very culty, right, it's like, oh, we're gonna control
how you look we're going to control exactly, like we're
gonna shave your head as punishment, Like it's it was
so wild wild.

Speaker 1 (35:59):
Shaving your head punishment is crazy work. So pretty much
everything that they told you on America's Next Top Model,
which is you're not big enough to be a plus
sized model, We're going to cut your hair when you
go out into the real world of modeling, they looked
at you and said opposite what happened for you, Like
I am a product of America's Next Top Model, This
is what happened.

Speaker 4 (36:17):
I should have been, but I was so deep in
the like propaganda that they had fed me, which was
that this was an amazing opportunity. And maybe it's true
that I, like the girls that stayed in LA maybe
did have like a more opportunities, but also creepy people
trying to like prey on them. I think it just depends.
Like I always heard that models lived in New York

(36:39):
and that was where models went, and I had also
wanted to live in New York since I was like
three years old, so like that's what made sense for me.
I do know some girls went to LA they worked
a lot, and I wasn't really sure what I wanted
to do, but I was like, I feel like modeling
is the path, So I was like, let's just and also,
it's just this crazy opportunity that fell into my lap.
Why not make the most of it while I can

(36:59):
so so yeah, So for me, I was like in
New York, I was definitely a little bit out of
the scene. And yeah, everything was the opposite. And you
think that it would have occurred to me like, oh,
maybe they weren't looking out for my actual modeling career
in fashion since they got everything wrong. But it literally
didn't occur to me for like ten years.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
They can't be doing this for writings, they have to
be looking out for me.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
Yeah, yeah, they really thought that. Yeah, But also I
do believe that they didn't know anything about the plus
size catalog world, which is very different from like high fashion.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
So what are you doing now? You did comedy, you
did some modeling, How you write a book?

Speaker 4 (37:30):
Now I write a book? Okay, now I'm working on
the next book. Wow, what was that one going to
be about? It's going to be about plus size modeling, Okay, yeah,
in New York. It's going to be about how the
industry has changed, both for good and ill also, you know,
probably gonna be available for other projects if anyone is hiring.
I can write things. And sometimes I'm funny. And the

(37:53):
industry is absolutely on fire. But that's okay, we're all
doing our best. Go on, It's fine. Know he's on fire,
everything's on fire. Yeah, So I'm sort of I'm in
that weird post book like hangover. My grandfather was a writer,
and he always said, don't buy a house, don't have
a baby, don't get a dog. Right after you turn

(38:14):
in your book and after you do, like there's a
big vacuum in your life and you're you feel this
like and I do feel the urge. I'm like I
should buy a house. I can't afford a house, Like
I should have another baby. No, No, it's but it's
like it's you know, I mean, what am I gonna
And I'm like I should get a dog. Nope, not
right now. Just gotta wait, just gotta wait, the post
creative project hangover. But yeah, and and yeah doing some

(38:38):
stand up?

Speaker 1 (38:39):
Are you doing it around here?

Speaker 4 (38:40):
Like can we come see you? Yeah? Absolutely? Yeah in
New York. I'm sort of I've been on a little
break while I've been doing the press because I was
in LA and then I I actually had to go
back to Massachusetts. My dad had surgery, so I was on.
I've been on a little break, but I'm gonna I'm
gonna get back. I'm gonna get my monthly show back, hopefully.
Well it used to be at the stand in Union Square,
and then it is a clubcoming, and I'm hoping we

(39:01):
can do it at clubcoming again. So I'm putting I'm
going to put this out there. They are, they are
booked since Traders, which I love, but I'm hoping they
can squeak us in. I had a monthly show called
Hot One Gay One where all the comedians were hot
and or gay because I demand one or the other,
one the other at all times.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Yeah, yeah, So your book, let's move some of these
right now if we can not.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
You need it.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
But it's called You Want to Be On Top, a
memoir of makeovers, manipulation and not becoming America's next Top Model.
I would imagine this is available anywhere you can buy books.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
Anywhere you can buy books. Yeah, please support your local bookstores.
And if it's not there, asked for it. And also
you want to be on Top dot com. I can't
believe that domain was available.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
I cannot either. It sounds like that could really lead
to a lot of other sites as well.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
This is what is the state of the porn industry
these days, that that domain name is available. You know,
it's we used to be a proper country.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Everything is on fire, Everything is on fire. It's crazy.
But I got a good domain name, and congratulations on that.
You want to be on top dot com dot com.
And if you could point to just one part of
this book that the most important part to you, which
part would that be?

Speaker 4 (40:03):
I don't want to do spoilers, but I am going
to say it's probably at the end in the last
chapter where I talk about how I think that reality
contestants and everybody deserve to be paid for their time
in labor.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, oh absolutely, especially when you see how much those
networks make off of it.

Speaker 4 (40:20):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
It is wild. It's a very exploitive industry.

Speaker 4 (40:23):
Exact general.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
People think I'm going to get this big break in
a lot too. But what you sacrifice in the beginning,
a lot of times you can't make up for it
in a completely different way. When I first started in radio,
all I cared about was that somebody wanted to hire
me full time to be part of a morning radio
show when I was still in college. So the salary
that they tossed out to me, I said, yeah, oh,
I had no problem. I didn't even really have a

(40:45):
concept of money at that time. You know, I didn't
understand taxes, none of it, and I just accepted the offer.
Years later, now you start from that place, you're starting
from nothing. So same with reality TV. You're starting from nothing,
So why would the next person pay you a ton?

Speaker 4 (40:58):
Exactly?

Speaker 1 (40:59):
And my boss said to me, you really undersold yourself
when you just accepted the offer. You should have fought
for more money because there was a lot more money
on the table for you. And I thought, screw you.
You knew that, and you offered me this as a kid.
I was still in college, like I didn't know any better.
I was just really excited. And now because he said,
from now, you know, that's your starting point and this

(41:19):
is where we're going with Raises was based on that
know your value.

Speaker 4 (41:23):
People know your value one hundred percent, and also know
reality shows are not going to know your value. So
if you want to negotiate, find another find another industry. Sadly.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
It's tough now though, right because everybody wants to be famous,
and now that you have TikTok and Instagram and all
these other platforms where people get a taste of it
and can actually kind of monetize what they're doing over there,
it does really screw up the competition and in some
ways improve it, I guess, But it is tough to
get these reality shows to pay you more if they're like, please,

(41:53):
some other asshole's going to come here and do the
exact same thing.

Speaker 4 (41:55):
For nothing, exactly. And that's what they told us over
and over again is a million girls would care for
this opportunity, and we have their phone number.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
So they were just out here trying to ruin you.
Do you think they succeeded? How long did it take
you to bounce back?

Speaker 4 (42:08):
Oh gosh, that's a great question. I mean, my life
is pretty awesome, so very happy. Oh thank you, I
mean for thirty minutes, thank you. I'm very lucky. I'm
so And that's the thing is really, when I look
at like the way that I was processing things after
the show, I had access to a support system, I
had access to mental health care, and I was stone

(42:31):
cold broke. I was financially devastated by the show, but
I had enough of a support system that I could
go to school, right, I had a place to live.
There were a lot of girls who were financially devastated
by the show, and they did not have that support system.
They didn't have access to mental health care, they weren't
able to process things that they went through. And I

(42:53):
just I think that everybody deserves the same thing, the
same privileges that I had, which is like, yeah, access
to mental health care, access to financial support, at least
to the point where it's like a living wage, you
know what I mean. Like the show cost me so
much money. I came out of it with less money
than I had going in, And so I just think
that that should not be true, and I think that

(43:14):
everyone deserves those same basic rights that I had.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
That's nice. So that was so you would say that's
the highlight of it is Hey, this is my thought.
This is my takeaway from it. Yes, when you think
about the cycle and you think about the low light,
what is that? And I probably should switch those questions. No,
that's okay, editing is key.

Speaker 4 (43:34):
I mean, the low level was probably just a lot
of the girls experienced the same thing, which is that
we really experienced a loss of identity because we were
trying so hard to be what the producers wanted and
if we failed, which we all did in some point,
they chose us because a we were tall and thin

(43:55):
and attractive, but also because we were people pleasers who
wanted to do the thing, or they chose us because
we were contrarians, and it was definitely one of the other.
But I think we all experienced a lot of identity,
and that's something that I talked to a lot of
I interviewed a lot of contestants and also have just
kept in touch with them over the years. I test,
like I say, I interviewed some contestants. I texted Jenna

(44:19):
again like I do. She was like cool, that experience
was super traumatic for me, and I was like word,
But it really was like we didn't know who we
were anymore. And so I'd say that that was probably
the low light. But again, I was so lucky because
I came to New York and I got to figure
it out in the best city in the world with

(44:41):
amazing people around me.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
So so you would say it knocked you all the
way down, But it also allowed you to rebuild yourself
in a way that you are proud of that you
wanted to do.

Speaker 4 (44:49):
Yes, that's yeah, that that that put that on it.
Yeah that's yeah, yeah what she said, So go.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Buy her book. Sarah Hartshorn is wonderful for really of
America's next Top Model cycle nine.

Speaker 4 (45:02):
But now current author, current author.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
I love that for you. Thank you, thank you so
much for joining me.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
Oh my god, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Absolutely, is there anything we talked We didn't talk about
that you want talk about?

Speaker 4 (45:12):
No, just do you know, yeah, you want to be
on top dot com Sarah B. Hartsorn on all all platforms. Yeah,
all heartsworn. Oh it's yeah, it's heartshorn.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
But I'm so sorry. No, no, I said heartshorn repeatedly.

Speaker 4 (45:23):
No, no, it truly. I don't actually notice anymore because
everyone gets it wrong. Yeah, it's it's heartshorn.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Heartsorn.

Speaker 4 (45:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, and I talk about that in
the book too. I almost My middle name is Banks
and I used to go by that and they asked
me to change it. Well, my name is May the
Gandhi and I expect people to get it right. So
I'm really sorry that I got yours wrong and we're
going to get it right in the edits maybe, well,
thank you again.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (45:55):
All right.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
And that was Sarah Hartshorn. And Andrew did book that
in you so okay?

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Can he get flowers once all the time? No, not you,
not you, not anybody here. I sit here in a
pile of shit every day. Oh here she goes here
it I feel like Joe Peshy and my cousin Vinnie.
Not to mention your.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Biological clock is ticking, Diamond. I'm in one to four
group chats with you. I think it is not a
lie that every single group chat bully shit good.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
It's the same thing.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
I don't have her started. I actually was nice to
him the other day in one of them.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Oh is that when you said I had main character energy?
Because I was trying to get you all out of cooking,
and I said you could either go or I could cancel.
It's up to you, and you said, twist it in.
Andrew's having main character energy with this one. Do you
guys want to cook?

Speaker 1 (46:50):
I can still cook syndrome. First of all, because Andrew,
we do this community cook By the way, for the homeless,
and Andrew decided a linkin Park concert was more important,
and he's like, you, guys, I can't make cooking, so
I'm just gonna reschedule it. I said, I think the
rest of us can still cook without.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
You, and they did it, and I never said that.
I said I can get a group to cover for us,
so we don't have to this week.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
I'm not gonna be there. Yeah, because it's so important
cooked without me there. That's why I said play.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
I gave more than without forty eight hours. With twenty
four hours notice, I could get another group to cover.
It's politely saying do you want you or do you not?
Nobody gives an answer because I have to chase everyone around.
You diverted entirely to be about something else. Then everyone
piles on and I don't get an answer.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
So that was only one. That was only one of
the group chats. The other ones they all started on themselves.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
Can I just please?

Speaker 3 (47:37):
Your voice is starting to annoy me today, Andrew.

Speaker 4 (47:41):
With you, I'm not doing it.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
I'm goilious, I'm out.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
I'm like, oh, he took the micpack off, he's walking out,
all right. I guess we're not gonna plug his Instagram.
He's like two hundred followers away from eleven thousand. She's
breaking down, babe, She's breaking down, Diamond. If people want
to follow you on Instagram, where can they find you?

Speaker 3 (48:03):
If you want to see me shit on Andrew? Every
chance that I get at Diamond, Sincere at.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Diamond, Sincere, I'm at Baby Hot Sauce. We will be
nice because Andrew's not a victim and say at Andrew
Pug on Instagram. He only needs two hundred more follows.
I hope your page gets hacked. Like follow, subscribe, leave
us a review for the podcast. If you want to
leave us a talkback, there's a little microphone on the
iHeartRadio app where you can leave us a talkback to

(48:30):
talk about this specific incident. And until next time, everybody,
say bye bye