September 17, 2024 • 49 mins
This week, Tommy is joined by Emmy nominated actors Matt Bomer and Jonathan Bailey. You know Matt from his incredible performances in White Collar, The Boys in the Band, Maestro, The Normal Heart and more. Jonathan exploded into worldwide superstardom after his break-out role in Bridgerton, and he will be in the upcoming highly anticipated Wicked and Jurassic World films. But today the conversation is all about their incredibly powerful series, Fellow Travelers, which centers on the decades-long romance between two men who first meet during the height of McCarthyism in the 1950s. This is a special edition episode of my podcast because this interview is from an event I moderated, presented by the prestigious 92nd Street Y New York. The 92nd Street Y New York is a world class center for arts and innovation. They offer extensive in-person and online classes and events, including live talks, concerts, and dance performances. I hope you enjoy this powerful and moving conversation.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey guys, welcome to I've never said this before with
me Tommy di Dario. Today's guests are the brilliant map
Omer and Jonathan Bailey, who are Emmy nominated actors for
their incredibly moving performances in the series Fellow Travelers. Now,
this is a special edition episode of my podcast because
the conversation you are about to hear is from an
(00:22):
event that I'm moderated, presented by the prestigious ninety.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Second Street Why New York.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
You of course know Matt from his incredible performances in
White Collar, The Poison, The Band, Maestro, and many more,
and Jonathan from his breakout role in Bridgerton when he
quickly became a fan favorite around the world, and who
will be in the upcoming Wicked and Jurassic World films,
which are probably two of the most iconic pieces of
(00:48):
art you can ever be a part of. But today
this conversation is all about being a part of Fellow Travelers,
which is a series that centers on the decades long
romance between two men who first meet during the height
of McCarthyism in the nineteen fifties. The ninety second Street Wyde,
New York is a world class center for arts and innovation.
They offer extensive classes and events in person and online,
(01:10):
including live talks, concerts, and dance performances. And get this,
they even celebrated their one hundred and fiftieth anniversary this year.
You can check them out at ninety two on y
dot org and look for their own podcasts ninety two
on y Talks, featuring the very best of their on
stage conversations. So let's see if today we can get
Matt and Jonathan to say something that they have never
(01:31):
said before.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Welcome everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
We are so excited to be here today. I am
so happy to be hanging out with the two of you,
Matt and Jonathan. Thank you again for making time for us. Ah,
your performances in this series are so beautiful. They're so
powerful and mesmerizing. I was watching this series with my
husband like ripping the couch the entire time. I just
(02:05):
couldn't believe the art that we were so lucky to watch.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
For the two of you.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
How did playing these characters change or affect your sense
of self and identity as two gay men? We're going
hard first, Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, there you go, you gotta go.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
I would just say the way Hawk sort of raged
against the machine was so inspiring to me. The way
he found his own personal freedoms within a society and
a world that told him he didn't deserve them, he
shouldn't have them. And the sad thing is, at the
cost of all that for him was the loss of love.
(02:51):
So I think of real true intimacy openly that you know,
he doesn't really get to start his really authentic life
until he's sixty five. But I think there's something about
his intelligence and in a way of kind of working
the system and a way to to find his own
personal freedoms that was inspiring to me, and also certain
(03:12):
aspects of his life that made me very grateful for
all that we have living in the times we live
in and because of people like that who who fought
in their own way to give us these rides today.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Yeah, there's so much that you think you're going to
find out purely on the basis of being able to
tell a story like this, which you know, obviously I
haven't seen before, and the invitation to go back to
the fifties and work't your way through to the eighties
and to see the sort of evolution of queer culture
in that time and the queer experience in America through
(03:46):
the eyes of Hawk and obviously Tim as well, And
I think I came and came away with so much
more than I thought possible, which I think is what
I've really The way that I definitely am changed is
understand exactly how you refer to it as a piece
of art. I think when something is that profound in
(04:07):
the experience of making it and you're following it, you know,
Matt's footsteps and being there to support him and Ron
as well and Robbie Rogers produced it, I just felt
like I was it's spoilt me and possibly I speak
from that, but for in the future, because you just
think it might never be that rich again. And there's
(04:30):
so much about him obviously that in his spirit, and
the resilience of both these characters and their choices that
they make, they're in you know, it's like a part
of over like thirty five years, and there's no right
or wrong.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
There's no right or wrong choice when you're.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
Experiencing that level of oppression and constant, you know, crushing
of spirit. So to be able to say goodbye to
the story and to realize in the world that we're
living in now to experience that I think come locked
in me.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
I think some sort of courage or a sense of
self and a sense.
Speaker 6 (05:06):
Of confidence actually, which I didn't really have before. I
didn't think in that specific way.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And emotionally, both of your characters deal with such interesting things.
I mean, for you, Matt, you're playing a very repressed
man and I imagine that's very different than who you
are right And for you, Jonathan, you're playing someone dying
of aids and that's something that you're not familiar with,
and you have to go to these places that emotionally
(05:33):
just cuts you open and you put it all out there.
So how did playing your respective characters affect you in
that sense?
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Well, I just in terms of playing it, I would
say was kind of like a flip.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
It was the opposite of what you usually do. You normally, a.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
Character's shadow or the darker aspects of themselves are what
they can see and hide from others, and they sort
of lead with their love and vulnerability and best face forward.
And Hawk was sort of the inverse of that because
of circumstances in his life, between his father and his
family life and the platoony lost, He's so that his intimacy,
his love, the sweeter aspects of himself were actually his
(06:13):
shadow self, and he leads with a much more assertive, controlled,
measured manner. So it was sort of the inverse of
how I usually approach a character, which was really liberating
and fun and new for me.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
Yeah, I know, because you read the script and there's
obviously so much on the page, But what I remember
now that you know, it's amazing that we can talk
about photostraphers again with a bit more, you know, in hindsight,
but the level of like, you just are so aware
of what Hawk is feeling at every point, and there's
no doubt that his love is there for so many things,
(06:47):
and I just think that, Yeah, it's a performance that
I just think completely smashes it out, you know anyway,
And for you emotionally, like how did you go there?
How did you get there and play someone so sick
so authentically when you haven't walked in those shoes before,
but you handled it with such care and such respect. Well,
(07:08):
I think that's the Yeah, I mean, the pressure that
I felt going into it is the need to pay
respects to so many people that came before us, and
there's something that happens when I suppose you know, yeah, yeah,
the San Francisco Ward scenes, which were obviously in episode eight.
(07:29):
There was a day where it fell on World Aide's Day,
and I think it started with the scene with Alison
William's amazing and the scene where she comes to visit Tim,
and then we ended up with, you know, going through
all of those scenes with Hawk. I think what was
amazing about this particularly is that everyone who was surrounding it,
everyone who sort of was designing it, had and so
(07:50):
many people do have uncles and brothers and loved ones
that they'd lost or that were living with AIDS or
they had looked after them. You know, you're go into
makeup in the morning and Jordan. I remember Jordan vividly
talking about caring for three of his friends, staying, you know,
sleeping on the floor of their bedrooms at night, and
it was just so real that at times it was actually,
(08:11):
you know, obviously overwhelming, but as it should be, because
I think that exactly is why Ron wanted.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
To write this story.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
It's why he took from the book and expanded into
the eighties, and I think that was what I was
found fascinating, especially telling the story of the Aids and
the act up. You know when they come up at
the end, is that you realize there is a you know,
it's joining the dots back to the fifties and about
how you know, the queer queer community has dropped at
(08:42):
various times in history, and it's all stems back from
sort of horrendous sort of narratives that are spun in
fear mongering, and so it's sort of I don't know.
It felt emotional and upsetting and but never for a
second not energizing. And yeah, it put a joy because
(09:04):
it felt that some sort of angels surrounding it.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Was an atmospheric change.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
I felt every decade helped, Like I felt like the
texture of the air between us changed a little bit.
And I think that was a testament to the respect
and the love you brought to the work. And every
time period, especially the eighties, and our production designer and
a crew who was so respectful of the material.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
It was like there was like a real.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
Tone on set of respect for the work, for the material,
and for the generation that we lost and all the
people whose stories we were taking part in. And you
felt like this sense that like there were just these
voices that kind of wanted to come through the story
because there were so many obstacles we hit over the
(09:53):
course of pre production and production and while we were
filming and putting it out and all these things, and
then we put it out there was a strike. But
something just wanted to come through in this story, and
all these things that seemed like obstacles ended up being
just kind of launching pads for us that helped us
out in the end.
Speaker 6 (10:12):
And also it was like incredibly I mean, it doesn't
sound it, but it was incredibly fun as well to me,
you know, And I think what I do really when
I say we've been spoiled, is like I really do
understand that what like representation means in terms of when
you do turn up and your opposite an actor without
having to say it, you're looking at each other in
(10:33):
these scenes going this is what we've hoped and wished
and thought that you know, we missing, and everyone is
that sort of level of focus that meant that everyone
was so respectful of it, but everyone just like lean
in and those days were long.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
But you know, with Noah Angelani.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
As well, it's the love story, I think in fellow
travelers that isn't talked about as much as the one
of friendship, particularly you know where you know they end
up together in the eighties and Marcus and Frankie going
to the West Coast and Tim following them. And I
think that's something that I have taken away from fellow travelers,
like what it actually means to be on a set
(11:12):
where you you're not you know, obviously as a white
gay man, you're still at the peak of privilege on
the Pride Flag, but it made such a difference to
not have to filter anything or there was so there
was so much energy gained from not having to you know,
having a shorthand that was an emotional tapestry, but it's
also hilarious and so yeah, I think that's that's the
(11:34):
sort of energy that was I found and that I
was like, I get it now, and I've always understood, Yeah,
well all ship, I don't know, So there's something magical
about it.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
Yeah, there was a real aspect of fow and family too,
and I feel like that bled over into the cast
as well.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Well, I think that's one of the many reasons why
this series is so magical. You watch it and every
character feels so connected to one another, I mean the.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Two of you.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
It's not easy to play a love story over four decades,
like let alone in one movie or one show, and
over one time period. That's challenging enough to make it
really believable and honest and authentic. To play that over
four decades is a testament to the work that you
two have done to really connect with one another. And
it's obvious. I mean even in the green room backstage,
(12:21):
I'm like, these guys are like brothers to each other.
Like it's so fun to see that relationship translate, you know,
from on screen to off screen. I'm curious to know.
There's so many powerful scenes throughout this series. I can
think of five right now at the top of my head.
But if you had one scene that you think will
forever stay with you.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
I will never will never forget the Friar Island, what
about Fire Island. There's so there is a lot in
Fire Island, and I'll never forget. But I do remember,
you know, obviously it's so important to the story, so
we mustn't laugh. But the obviously the Garden of Eden sequence,
(13:05):
and it was just it was it was amazing because
you know, obviously you had to show the cruising area.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
The it was dick dock me right, me, rack me rack.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Dick doc No, I did not know we were going
in this direction. But here we are. We're all friends here.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
It's right.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (13:30):
They amazing actors that came on to recreate it, and
it was just there was just one shot where I
think we just you know, obviously it was just like
kind of it was, you know, I've got nervous skiggles.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
I think every time we entered a new decade together,
that first scene we got, I mean, I have so many,
there's too many to just bring it down to one.
But every time I got to see what Johnny was
doing with the character and a new decade and the
temperature change and kind of seeing the history of the
character that he was bringing in the time period since
(14:01):
the last time I'd seen him, and was always so
revelatory to me. And just getting to be present with
that and work off of that was so I don't know,
it's just.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Really memorable to me.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
I'll never forget the first day we were in the seventies,
the first day we were in the sixties, the first
day we were in the eighties. It's all kind of
seared into me, and it was just such a partnership
from the get go, and it was always like a yes,
San and getting to see that and then trying to
bring what I was trying to bring, and then feed
off that and make it present and make it happen
(14:33):
when they were filming, and we never talked about it
very much. We kind of just tried to make it
happen when the scenes were happening. There was another one, obviously,
the last scene of the show. No one had told
me that we were going to have real patches of
the aides quilt, and it was one of those moments
where I was just leveled just walking onto that set
(14:56):
and then you have to just get out of your
way as an actor and let it it all come
through and trust this history that we'd created of thirty
five years together, and it was one of the last
things we filmed, and just walking and looking at those
squares and seeing the real Roy Cohen Square and it
was just, I mean, how could you ever forget a
(15:17):
moment like that?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
It was It was.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Beyond moving and a profound gift to get to even
be in the same frame as the Aid Squill.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
So yeah, that scene was unbelievable. It was one of
the most powerful scenes of the series, for sure, and
what a gift to be able to be a part
of that and to honor so many people in the
way that the both of you did.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
And there's a big initiative to have the aid Squill
displayed permanently, which I think everyone sto to get on.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Beautiful.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Hey, I thank your breath.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
I'm gonna see you again.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I'm gonna look outside and make sure it's clear take stairs.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
That seemed to me so little is said, but so
much is said. And I don't know how many people
in the audience today who are part of the community
feel this way. But for me, I know there were
moments where I felt like I had to sneak around
and be ashamed and hide who I was for fear
of what someone might think, for fear of being outed.
(16:38):
And seeing the two of you in that moment, feeling
that so vividly like it broke my heart. And it's
not such an obvious emotional scene, but it really broke
my heart. Did you feel that, did you have that
kind of same experience shooting it?
Speaker 6 (16:53):
I mean, it's just so sad that anyone has to
live like that. But I yeah, the stakes are so present,
aren't they security in the safety that they afford each
other in there, so they sort of hold each other
in a really beautiful way when they were allowed to
and they given space to and then the moment the
difference between a door and what that means for these
people at that point especially. But yeah, it's unfortunately, it's
(17:15):
a panic and an anxiety that I think we were
all born with.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
I hope that changes.
Speaker 6 (17:20):
But yeah, so's it's it's sad to play, but it's
it's easily accessed.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, sadly.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
I mean it's I feel like it was an undertone
throughout the entire series, this sense of longing and unable
inability to express everything that needed to be expressed to really,
you know, have a full relationship that's open to the world,
and you know, there's something that's bifurcated in that, I think,
(17:51):
and I don't know, for me, it was like I
could relate to it, certainly growing up in Texas and
figuring out my own identity and playing a game that
felt like it high stakes to me at the time
to just survive and get to New York City. So yeah,
it was I think it was an undertone throughout the
whole shop, but something really anyone from our community can
(18:12):
relate to on some level.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
And specifically at that time.
Speaker 6 (18:16):
I suppose as well, just the fact that a neighbor
and even a dog could be the thing that you know,
ends your career, like loses you your family. You know,
it's wild, it's wild, and it's such a beautiful you know.
Ron is such an incredible craftsman of moments. To go
(18:36):
from that the most serene like innocence of their love
to to the reality of the world outside, I think
is just brilliant. And therefore I always think in those
moments of shock and duality where you're suddenly exposed to
something as an audience, emotion can really and that's what
I think he really understands as well in storytelling.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, it's unexpected.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I also feel like anytime we got to be Supine,
we were so excited because we were so tired because
it was such a among filming schedule. I was like,
you look so beautific when you're sleeping in there, Like
he was probably so happy that he got to lay.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Did the two of you have a favorite decade that
you got to play.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
It's funny when you're talking about moments, do you really remember?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
But I do. Actually, I remember a lot about the.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
First scene when Tim comes back with information about the
executive order.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
That was quite late.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
That was another night shoot, but I remember really then
it felt to me that it was so like it
was the moment where we were going.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
I don't know how to say it.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
I'm so bad at talking about process, but it felt
like if you imagine putting up a tent. It was
like we'd chosen the spot we're going to put our
tent up, and then it was like watching each other
hammer down the guy rapes, and it felt like what
happened in that scene was created the blanket, the sort
of canvas by which then you'd grow anyway. But then
I feel like there were lynch scenes in every decade
(20:01):
that followed. I really remember another, and they seem to
always be Paradis night shoots. But in the in episode
seven in Fire Island, going back to my favorite moment, No,
this is a different moment in episode seven, but the
late night conversation where Tim reveals that he's actually seeing someone.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
And there was something and then you know, I can't.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm with you. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
They all really did resonate in a different way, And
there were times I was always kind of excited to
get this, Like I'd spoken about, get to see what
the next decade was going to be like and what
people were bringing, and Johnny and Alison and Jelani and
Noah all brought such nuance to their performances in each decade.
It was just such a joy to get to watch
(20:51):
and take in and play with, play opposite, and there
were different I mean, I think there was something really
nice about the Bacchanalian freedom of Fire Island, even though
Hawk was like harboring that really tragic secret the whole episode,
like we'd been so buttoned up in the fifties for
three episodes straight and it was so repressed and bottled up,
and every director had been like, you're not allowed to emote.
(21:14):
You hold it all and you don't give anything away.
You are cold, you are the best poker player. And
then getting to just kind of let some of that
go and suddenly be in short shorts on the beach
with you.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I was like, what is happening right now? I don't know,
but I love it.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
And so it was just it was that was kind
of a special moment to get to.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
It was your volcanic shimmy.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It's been brilliant.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
But there was also because similarly in episode six as well,
do the scene around the fireplace. I was thinking about
this this week about it was it was about what
I mean, is that the relationship to their to the
assumed intimacy that happens, and especially in episode six where Tim.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
At that point is.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
Uh, you know, he's father Lawrence and he's been in
seminary and he's burning you know, it's so so sort
of devout at that point, and there were these key
moments where it's like, how do they address each other physically?
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Do you remember? I remember that was when people ask.
Speaker 6 (22:16):
About whether we talked about scenes and we I feel
like we didn't really until that was one where we
took ourselves off and we're like, actually, what is this?
And it was a bit where he you know, is
hugging Tim and Tim is trying to pull away, and
I feel that that sort of intimacy was also in
the scene that I was talking about in episode seven
or you know, where it's like and I thought that
was just so interesting and sometimes really you know, so
(22:38):
complicated because you have to you have to sort of
team up and actually.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Oh we did.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
It's when you're so grateful to have a scene partner
like Johnny who makes you better and inspires you to
do better and be better every day. Because we would
sidebar and we were like, you know, we'd go, okay,
we'd block this scene and we're like, okay, we have
like a loose idea what this is, but like now
let's really talk about like what's really going on, like
what would be this being? What if we tried this
and and then just let it come to life when
(23:06):
they called action. But I feel like those some of
those sidebar moments we have were really and this is
Ron's writing won the day for everyone involved in this project,
but they were really integral to some of the moments
with and.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
It's because of his detail that there were, you know,
there was so many different way but there's just the nuance.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
It's just it's incredible, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (23:26):
Because it's like if you're dancing with someone and you
can freestyle and like you can you know, come together
in freestyle, but then to actually have a choreograph moment
where you both can really just go hang on what
you know, what you what we say?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
You know, what are we saying together?
Speaker 6 (23:42):
What we're saying as actors about what we think these
gay men will be experiencing all these humans.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Yeah, in the sense of the eight count too, and
just find the freedom in it, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, we have so many dance metaphors.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
We're here for it. We're here for them all, keep
them coming.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
There's so many scenes, as you mentioned that that are
very you know, intimate and close and you have to
have so much trust with one another. So what is
it about one another that makes you feel safe because
you're really putting your full self into each other's hands.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Kindness literally and figuratively. Yeah, sense of humor. Yeah, I
think it's just who Johnny is.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
From the first time we met and we sat down
at that coffee shop which we've talked about, I'm sorry,
gold Struck Coffee on Cumberland Avenue, loud shout outs to
you in Toronto, and we just we just decided like
we were going to have each other's back. And I
think we both come from the theater initially, and we
have like a sense of what that process is. And
(24:42):
you know, in theater, when you're in that rehearsal room.
You have to have each other, You have to really
take some bold risks and have each other's back and
be willing to get ugly and fail and make have
bad takes and do things that aren't right. And I
just always had that sense from him, and I feel
like the intimacy on the show was so well written
that and I've said this before, but the characters were
(25:05):
never the same after an intimacy scene as they were before,
and to me, that's the mark of a really good
intimacy scene that's integral to the story. And it was
such a it was the most I've ever been. First
of all, I think it's one of the first times
I've not really dissociated when I've been an intimacy scenes
because it felt like an acting scene to me, because
what they were doing was such a reflection of both
(25:26):
of their reactions to an oppressive society. Hawk's raging against
it a need for control and Tim I don't want
to put words in your mouth, but being more willing
to let go and be open to things, and the
way they had this therapeutic way of coming together that
for Hawk especially, it felt like it was the freest
he ever was in the fifties.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
You know, I think that it's really rewarding to see
that offscreen relationship. As I mentioned earlier, it's so clear
it's there, and that's part of the magic is with
the series you really feel it.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
I also I think with my as well. You have
to remember that he was there from the get go,
and you were there in the pitch meetings. Ron and
Robbie invited you on board, and so from my experience,
Matt was the Well I spoke to Ron first, but
you know, we had a screen test, and in terms
of leadership, you don't get better really than Matt because
there's no sense of hierarchy. But it was just an
(26:18):
ever present. It was just always really fun and the
work was you know, you led with such a bright light.
I think that really allows everyone to have an amazing time,
and you need that in a leader of a series
like this.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
It was really Ron. You know.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
No, I'll tell you why because I was so and
I've talked about this too. I'm sorry I was cynical
about this. Initially, I was nan cynical. I was doubtful,
and I was trying to protect my own heart because
I love the story so much, I was trying to
protect myself from the disappointment of it nah going. But
the first time I read one of Ron's scripts, I thought,
(26:57):
they're going to make this show, I guess really to
happen because his writing was just it was undeniable, and
he was there for pretty much every take of every
scene we did, and I looked to him, and when
I was, you know, exhausted on our sixty whatever of
the week, I looked to Ron and this guy was
(27:17):
just like, you could see this was his baby and.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
You needed to treat it as such. You know.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
It was so inspiring, right, And also you can make
huge you can make big swings when you've got someone
like Ron, like just completely looking.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Out for you and it.
Speaker 6 (27:33):
And my gosh, does he love the characters if it's
I'm not even sure it's.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Possible more than us, but he does.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
And I remember on Fire Island when we'd done three
episodes in the fifties, and I do remember that was
the one time I sat by the pool outside and
I'd gotten, you know, my tash on, and I was like,
is this gonna'? I was like, I know, how do
you stitch? You know, how do you carry the spirit
forward of and he just said, Johnny, he said, you do,
you do your thing. But He's like, I've got the story,
(28:01):
I've got.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
It in my you know, and I walk construct it.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
And it really is true that his it's his construction
of that story, in the writing of it, in the
conception of it, but in also the day to day
filming of it. When then the edit you know so much.
And also there were so many details as well, interestingly
that did you know that weren't involved in the final story,
which just shows how much of a wealth there is
(28:23):
in his brain about these And I have no idea
how you do that, but it felt it. Yeah, it
felt like, you know, having watched the Olympics called weeks ago,
it's like having one of those spotters doing when you're
doing the gymnastics, and you just know you're going to
get caught, So why not go for the Simone bars
number three?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Absolutely, Matt, you mentioned feeling a little.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Number three.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
We love we love Simone Biles moment.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
She's from my hometown's brain.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Is she really all right?
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I want to pick up on what you just said,
though for a minute you felt a little almost cynical
in the beginning, that this wouldn't actually happen, right, Did
you think that the world maybe wouldn't it be ready
for a story like this?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Did you have that fear again?
Speaker 5 (29:11):
And it's my fault, but I feel like maybe cynical
is the wrong word.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Doubtful might be more accurate.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
And again I was self protecting, admittedly, but I thought, Okay,
I knew how much money it would take to make
a period piece, and I thought, are they really going
to put the money into all this? And are they
really going to let it be an LGBTQIA plus love story?
And then are they going to let members of our
community actually be at the creative helm of that story?
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Like I just I don't.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
I couldn't recall seeing a lot of things out there
in the world like that.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
So I was just doubtful.
Speaker 5 (29:45):
But you know, we were so blessed to be at
showtime and ultimately Paramount Plus and Fremantle, because you know,
when you're developing things, a lot of times you get
these really restrictive notes like, oh, yeah, don't do that,
that's going to alienate this part of the audience.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Don't do that.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
You know women aren't going to like that, or you know,
you get those kinds of notes, and they.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Were the polar opposite.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
They were like, go farther, embarrass yourself, push yourself, scare yourself.
We dare you to push this as far as you can.
We're like what And so I feel like that sense
of permission like bled all the way over into our work.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
As actors as well.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
Or we could just jump off a cliff and I
knew Johnny would catch me and if it was you know,
or or Ron would edit it out or whatever we'd
have to do. You know, he can spind me like Simone.
And but yeah, it all did. Yeah, Like I don't know,
we were just very we were just I was so
(30:42):
moved and inspired by the fact that we had people
who weren't all members of our community, who were there
with the power, with the decision making capability to say.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
No, we believe in you.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Go go further tell your story to the furthest extent
that you can. That you know, obliterated every amount of
cynicism I ever had, honestly.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Well to be a part of a show that not
only is credited with saving people's lives literally, it's there's
so many stories of people who write about that to
also healing families and relationships. To your point, it's not
just for people in the community, it's literally healing a
world of people through your work, which I think is
(31:26):
a huge testament. And thank god this series was made.
Am I right? Thank God? Thank god? All right, boys,
we got some fan questions up in here.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Are you ready for them?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, okay, I'm not responsible for anything that's about to
come out of my mouth.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Peter H. Peter, thank you for your question.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
What is something in today's world that you wish your
characters would be able to see or experiences? Congrats on
the Immy nominations.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
Him would be living his best life?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, well he would.
Speaker 6 (32:13):
Yeah, I mean he would be so proud of bits
of you know, how communities progressed.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
My goodness, what question. God, there's so much I mean,
he yeah, there's so much.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I mean he would.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
I mean the fact that I think for him it
would be about education and about the inclusion of queerness
and gayness in schools I think, which I know you
know we still have in the UK. But I think
he'd be incredibly proud. I mean, there's such an earnest response.
But yeah, he'd I think he would just love gay
marriage and to be able to be with He's so
(32:51):
he loved so fiercely, and I think, yeah, he would
have wanted to stand by someone and to be able
to let go of all that shame, I think and
he would have done as well.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
I would love to see a photo album, just a
bunch of different weddings like enjoying it all.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Okay, I'm gonna go to Ernest Draught too.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
I would say it would be so beautiful for Hawk
to get to see a world where he could have
everything that he thought he needed to sacrifice everything to have,
but also not have to sacrifice any.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Of that to have it. Does that make sense?
Speaker 5 (33:27):
A world where he could have the job in the government,
have the life in Italy, also have the love of
his life, and also not have to feel like just
kissing him in public wasn't a completely revolutionary.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Act, beautifully said?
Speaker 1 (33:41):
All right, Laura, Laura's up next, Matt, what was your
favorite scene or performance of Jonathan's And Jonathan what was
your favorite of Matt's?
Speaker 4 (33:49):
I can answer that.
Speaker 6 (33:50):
Sorry, my mind is blown with the performance of the
polygraph test. I just think it's one of the most
stunning sequences performed on TV. I do I really, I think,
how do you do that? There's nothing seemingly happening physically,
but you know exactly what is going on, and the
(34:10):
building pressure and everything that Hawk is as an animal
is featured in that sequence, and I think, yeah, I
think it's beautiful, and yeah, you can't really compare it
to sort of thing.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
I think it's it's very kind of you to say
we had an amazing director who I feel like did
so much of that work. But but but yeah, thank you, thank.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
You, compliments got it honestly.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
I mean it's so hard for me to pick just
one because Johnny was so brilliant and so many of
our scenes and just the what he would bring to
the table would force me into the moment and bring
me right there with him, and I just feel like
a lot of it, and I'll just go sequentially, Okay,
(35:00):
the fifties when you wrote when you when you hung
out of the party and I make you write the letter.
I mean, just seeing everything his character was going through,
but also having to like steal myself from that was
like one of the hardest things I've ever had here. Yes,
that and just the subtlety and the nuance of seeing
(35:24):
this lost kid who was so ahead of his time.
It was just all written across your face. And you know,
I loved you in the seventies.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I think a lot of people did, just saying.
Speaker 5 (35:39):
Yeah, but also just the beauty of what he had
brought from the sixties, because I knew what happened in
the sixties and I saw him bring that in in
the seventies and was like, it was the first time
I saw you was like a fully realized man and.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
It was like whoa it was. It just it just
brought me right into the scene.
Speaker 6 (35:59):
Because with the first scene we shot in the seventies,
what was our sort of day trip to the beach
where was the book? And he checks in on Hawk
and he's sort of studying and you come out to sea. Yeah,
I remember likewise seeing you know that it was unbelievably moved,
Like the sort of the spiraling of Hawk was ovident.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
But we hadn't seen each other until we got to
the beach.
Speaker 5 (36:21):
Yes, and I remember that it was another one of
those scenes that you're talking about that Ron writes, it's
so unexpected in such a judged to position emotionally, because
Hawk at the time is like flirting with death, trying
to kill himself and see if he has the courage
to swim out far enough that he can't make it back.
And he pushes himself that day, and then he gets
to the beach and there's the love of his life
waiting for him, who like brings him back to life.
Speaker 6 (36:43):
And there's also something about him at that point has
developed the ability to sit and observe and not.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
By his emotions.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
And yes, it's.
Speaker 6 (36:53):
So interesting when the person that you that knows you intimately,
you can't hide behind it. And at that point Hawk
is just with all tension, it's holding on to try
some semblance of being okay, and Tim can just see,
which I think is powerful.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
I mean, I'm sitting up here grinning like a fool,
because how satisfying is that to hear them talk about
these scenes that we've been watching and loving right for
so long. It's truly amazing to hear you, you know,
kind of pick them apart in that way. All right, Nicole,
see as well.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
I have to say one other scene. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, y'all. Sorry, Nicole, sorry,
the last scene we had together in the eighties.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Oh yeah, outside the strength and the poignancy.
Speaker 5 (37:35):
You don't understand how great an actor you have to
be to play Tim in that scene and not lean
into the sentimentality too far, but have it be earned
and just come from the soul and just come through
the eyes so beautifully in such a human way that
it really would was like, wow, that's like the degree
of difficulty on that is unheard of, and just it
(37:58):
was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Is really that is wrong? That is that really is?
Speaker 6 (38:04):
You know, technically in a scene like that, I remember
we cross shot that.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Do you remember by that?
Speaker 6 (38:09):
And so basically what you see is a live reaction
because you know, you know when you film the scenes
sometimes I don't know, I like what sometimes it's just film,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Do you know what? Yeah? So we were both being
filmed at the same time.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (38:24):
Yeah, And it was so it was silent, you know,
usually there was something it was like a real it
was like.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
A gentle snowfall, yeah moments. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (38:34):
And there was a sequence that wasn't in the finished
edit where Tim and Hawk arrive at the gala. Do
you remember, yes, Yeah, And there was the young activists
that were fighting.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, yeah, that meantal art to you, huh, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (38:52):
But I mean yeah, it just they rose that, you know,
they rose their fist to Tim, and I think Hawk
sort of acknowledged it, but I mean it was just yeah.
I mean I think that the scene, you know, obviously
the dec you know, that's the you know, that's the
big operatic moment, I suppose, and I think the whole
crew and everyone it was something there was a simplicity
(39:12):
to it by that point because all the work's done,
you know, for Tim as well, and that's what's so
they've had their amazing and that's the end of their amazing,
beautiful sort of operatic life romance romance.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Then that's it.
Speaker 6 (39:27):
And I think there was not much more to say,
and it was clear for Tim for the first time
in his life. And that's to do with that is
literally to do with Ron's experience and his understanding of
you know, his own life, I suppose, but also interpreting
other people's and that's what made it.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
So I think it was. Yeah, I do think.
Speaker 6 (39:45):
It was so how you know, the nerve because we
didn't get episode eight for a while, and as we
were building momentum and you're like, oh my gosh, you
see Noah Jelani and knowing the sort of wealth of
you know, with Allison coming in and getting a sense
of that because it was so me and Matt for
so long and then you'd see bits you'd be like,
my god, this is and never doubting it, but just
being so excited to see how a master can tie
(40:07):
that all up. And it was amazing how he did it.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
And there were a lot of things and flux up
under the very end. Remember there used to be a
milk scene or the milk scene was very different.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
Remember what they want?
Speaker 5 (40:25):
Yes, well there were many iterations, but are you talking about.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
The candle wax?
Speaker 4 (40:29):
The candle wax?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
A little speechless?
Speaker 5 (40:36):
All right, We were finding these things out like a
week before we do them.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
And so it was.
Speaker 5 (40:40):
But Ron had the whole thing mapped out in his
mind and he knew had a tetris in the perfect
thing to really bring the full arc of the relationship.
Speaker 6 (40:48):
And he knew that it was the aides quill that
he was going to. That that was his vignette that
I think at points, you know, there were conversations about
they could and different ways, and he was just like
that is how it ends, and I think that was
one of his first images that came to his head
when he considered adapting the novel.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
I just think it's so powerful, the zooming out.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
And then yeah, I know it's it brought many people
to tears, I'm sure of it. Sticking on theme with
different scene work. This is from Nicole Cea, who's watching
on the live stream Hawks breakdown on Fire Island and
the way in which Tim really takes care of him
is so moving. What was each of your experience like
filming that.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
I don't know why my.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Brain goes to I just.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Well, I think I'm nervous.
Speaker 6 (41:31):
I mean it was so emotionally, it was, you know,
huge and upsetting, and you know, Matt, it's so easy
to obviously as Tim look after Hawk when Matt was
giving that performance.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
But I do remember your.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Wig fell off a little bit, wig fell off.
Speaker 4 (41:45):
Your wig fell off?
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Oh I did?
Speaker 5 (41:46):
Oh you put it back one so that they wouldn't
lose the tears coming out of it.
Speaker 4 (41:52):
I was like saying it stay in it. Yeah, but
it was because it was you know, it was really.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
Yeah, it was a handsy scene in many ways. I
you know that honestly, that was the That was one
of the more challenging things I've ever had to do
in my life. It was obviously so raw emotionally, but
what Destiny did that was kind of a favor to us,
but was also terrifying.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
There was no like cut between.
Speaker 5 (42:18):
We had to play out the whole sex scene all
the way through the end of the breakdown, so there
was no it's not like they separated out the two,
which was obviously kind of terrifying as a performer, But ultimately,
I think all the drug fueled just bacchanalian desire, and
it mixed with the anger and the frustration and the
(42:40):
turn and the scene. I think she really did us
all a great service in that, you know, and that
and that she let us play out the entirety of it.
Speaker 6 (42:48):
Yeah, And that's another example of Rum's like how you
think the scene, you know, is so indulgent in the
power play between the three of them and the needs
are all so explicit, and then for it to be
for the picture of Jackson to be spotted, I think
it was that was like a wild ride. But that's
(43:10):
you know, I just again just you know, you're seeing
you're seeing sort of Lamborghini at work there and you
just sort of you know all Tim has to do,
you know, you just have to listen and be there.
Speaker 5 (43:20):
But it was brutal, but I did feel that I
felt everything that you I felt. That was one of
those moments that we talked about in that coffee shop
where you were there for me on every level, not
only when we were filming, but when the cameras were
in between and every everything else. And it is a
testament to Ron's writing though, because it is so reflective.
You know, it's almost the same way with his alcohol intake,
(43:42):
that you don't come for that secret he harbors or
he lashes out at you, and it was it was
kind of an echo of that when he has a
tragic secret, if you try to find it or uncovered,
he attacks.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Well, we're going to finish up with two lighthearted questions
from the audience. Began will like to know would Hawk
and Skippy support brat Summer?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Megan, I love you. What a great question. That's part one.
Speaker 5 (44:14):
Skippy for sure, right, He's he's like friends with Charlie X.
Speaker 4 (44:21):
He was at her birthday party.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Good day.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
I think that's basically what Fire Island was for them.
Speaker 5 (44:29):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, Hawk likes watching the Twinks, enjoy Brat Summer.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
Yeah, and other people too.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
But Megie, so I think that answers who is the
bigger Bratt.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
Probably Hawk, Yeah, you and a bust and as people
or our characters, I think we should go for both.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
No, don't make us do that. I don't even know
what Bratt Summer means.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I don't even.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
I'm still trying to figure it out. There's a dance
on TikTok.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
I know that.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah, we'll learn it and we'll do it and we'll
post it. Okay. Last question, and this is I guess
a lot of people asked. It's so many names on this,
lots of milk questions. Jack and Jonathan, Jonathan, how much
milk did you drink? What kind was it?
Speaker 4 (45:24):
It's oat milk for me.
Speaker 6 (45:27):
I drank probably about seventeen liters.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
No, No, do you know what we did that?
Speaker 4 (45:34):
Really quickly?
Speaker 3 (45:35):
Did it?
Speaker 6 (45:36):
I'd taken a half yeah after about yeah, I mean
twenty year, seventeen hour day. Yeah, I remember at the
beginning of that, knowing that scene that was at the
end of the day and you looked down at the
cool sheet, like we've done one. We've done one scene
and we've got seven to go, and it's like it
was literally.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Much in the morning. Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 6 (45:56):
It was what you know, but yeah, so actually not
not that much milk, but it was for me, it
was out did you.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
Mind opportunity to talk about your charity if you want to?
Speaker 3 (46:09):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's great audience.
Speaker 5 (46:11):
Yeah, beautiful thing that Jonathan did that parlayed some of
the work and awareness we did on the show and
turned it into something much bigger and a great way
to give back to the community.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (46:21):
Well, I think I do think that's something that was
totally inspired by you know, obviously inspired by fellow shovelers,
but just the experience of telling the story. And yeah,
I mean the T shirt sold out straight away, but
I think that's because of Matt's command. Well, the name
of the organization is is the Shameless Fund.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
And we can look online about up looking we can.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
And it's gonna you know, it will. Yeah, I'm excited.
I'm really excited. It feels like a sort of a
really interesting way of being able to support multiple charities
as we go forward and twenty twenty five over the year,
where we can start identifying the grants, but there's amazing
ways in doing something because it's kind of over I
think when you know, you get asked to get involved
(47:02):
with different charities, and I just sort of felt, obviously,
you know, you wanted to. There's so many brilliant causes
out there, and so wanted to come up with a
way that you could disperse and also raise the profile
of nonprofits. And because you know, how else do you
is this sense of obileilm isn't there with charities anyway?
Shameless FUM would be a way that you can support
(47:24):
those by, you know, hopefully buying some vibe stuff along
the way.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yeah, well, good on you, you guys. This has been
one of the most gratifying interviews I've gotten to do
in my career. I love when I get to highlight
work that actually says something and that.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Means so much to so many people.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
And to talk to two trailblazers in the community going
out there and fighting the good fight through art, because
I think nothing is more powerful than that. And I
know this whole room is grateful for your gifts and
your artistry. I'm so grateful for it. And I think
my friend Celesties backstage, I want to celebrate the night
and kick it off with a little glass of oat milk.
(48:12):
The other character in the series.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
To these two.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Gentlemen, thank you for a beautiful night.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Thank you, thank you. It's here, sure, everybody.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
I've Never Said This Before is hosted by Me Tommy Dedario.
This podcast is executive produced by Andrew Publisi at iHeartRadio
and by Me Tommy, with editing by Joshua Colaudney. I've
Never Said This Before is part of the Elvis Durant
podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more, rate, review and
subscribe to our show and if you liked this episode,
(48:49):
tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy Dedario.
Hey guys, welcome to I've never said this before with
me Tommy di Dario. Today's guests are the brilliant map
Omer and Jonathan Bailey, who are Emmy nominated actors for
their incredibly moving performances in the series Fellow Travelers. Now,
this is a special edition episode of my podcast because
the conversation you are about to hear is from an
(00:22):
event that I'm moderated, presented by the prestigious ninety.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Second Street Why New York.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
You of course know Matt from his incredible performances in
White Collar, The Poison, The Band, Maestro, and many more,
and Jonathan from his breakout role in Bridgerton when he
quickly became a fan favorite around the world, and who
will be in the upcoming Wicked and Jurassic World films,
which are probably two of the most iconic pieces of
(00:48):
art you can ever be a part of. But today
this conversation is all about being a part of Fellow Travelers,
which is a series that centers on the decades long
romance between two men who first meet during the height
of McCarthyism in the nineteen fifties. The ninety second Street Wyde,
New York is a world class center for arts and innovation.
They offer extensive classes and events in person and online,
(01:10):
including live talks, concerts, and dance performances. And get this,
they even celebrated their one hundred and fiftieth anniversary this year.
You can check them out at ninety two on y
dot org and look for their own podcasts ninety two
on y Talks, featuring the very best of their on
stage conversations. So let's see if today we can get
Matt and Jonathan to say something that they have never
(01:31):
said before.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Welcome everybody.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
We are so excited to be here today. I am
so happy to be hanging out with the two of you,
Matt and Jonathan. Thank you again for making time for us. Ah,
your performances in this series are so beautiful. They're so
powerful and mesmerizing. I was watching this series with my
husband like ripping the couch the entire time. I just
(02:05):
couldn't believe the art that we were so lucky to watch.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
For the two of you.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
How did playing these characters change or affect your sense
of self and identity as two gay men? We're going
hard first, Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, there you go, you gotta go.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
I would just say the way Hawk sort of raged
against the machine was so inspiring to me. The way
he found his own personal freedoms within a society and
a world that told him he didn't deserve them, he
shouldn't have them. And the sad thing is, at the
cost of all that for him was the loss of love.
(02:51):
So I think of real true intimacy openly that you know,
he doesn't really get to start his really authentic life
until he's sixty five. But I think there's something about
his intelligence and in a way of kind of working
the system and a way to to find his own
personal freedoms that was inspiring to me, and also certain
(03:12):
aspects of his life that made me very grateful for
all that we have living in the times we live
in and because of people like that who who fought
in their own way to give us these rides today.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Yeah, there's so much that you think you're going to
find out purely on the basis of being able to
tell a story like this, which you know, obviously I
haven't seen before, and the invitation to go back to
the fifties and work't your way through to the eighties
and to see the sort of evolution of queer culture
in that time and the queer experience in America through
(03:46):
the eyes of Hawk and obviously Tim as well, And
I think I came and came away with so much
more than I thought possible, which I think is what
I've really The way that I definitely am changed is
understand exactly how you refer to it as a piece
of art. I think when something is that profound in
(04:07):
the experience of making it and you're following it, you know,
Matt's footsteps and being there to support him and Ron
as well and Robbie Rogers produced it, I just felt
like I was it's spoilt me and possibly I speak
from that, but for in the future, because you just
think it might never be that rich again. And there's
(04:30):
so much about him obviously that in his spirit, and
the resilience of both these characters and their choices that
they make, they're in you know, it's like a part
of over like thirty five years, and there's no right
or wrong.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
There's no right or wrong choice when you're.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
Experiencing that level of oppression and constant, you know, crushing
of spirit. So to be able to say goodbye to
the story and to realize in the world that we're
living in now to experience that I think come locked
in me.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
I think some sort of courage or a sense of
self and a sense.
Speaker 6 (05:06):
Of confidence actually, which I didn't really have before. I
didn't think in that specific way.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And emotionally, both of your characters deal with such interesting things.
I mean, for you, Matt, you're playing a very repressed
man and I imagine that's very different than who you
are right And for you, Jonathan, you're playing someone dying
of aids and that's something that you're not familiar with,
and you have to go to these places that emotionally
(05:33):
just cuts you open and you put it all out there.
So how did playing your respective characters affect you in
that sense?
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Well, I just in terms of playing it, I would
say was kind of like a flip.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
It was the opposite of what you usually do. You normally, a.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
Character's shadow or the darker aspects of themselves are what
they can see and hide from others, and they sort
of lead with their love and vulnerability and best face forward.
And Hawk was sort of the inverse of that because
of circumstances in his life, between his father and his
family life and the platoony lost, He's so that his intimacy,
his love, the sweeter aspects of himself were actually his
(06:13):
shadow self, and he leads with a much more assertive, controlled,
measured manner. So it was sort of the inverse of
how I usually approach a character, which was really liberating
and fun and new for me.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
Yeah, I know, because you read the script and there's
obviously so much on the page, But what I remember
now that you know, it's amazing that we can talk
about photostraphers again with a bit more, you know, in hindsight,
but the level of like, you just are so aware
of what Hawk is feeling at every point, and there's
no doubt that his love is there for so many things,
(06:47):
and I just think that, Yeah, it's a performance that
I just think completely smashes it out, you know anyway,
And for you emotionally, like how did you go there?
How did you get there and play someone so sick
so authentically when you haven't walked in those shoes before,
but you handled it with such care and such respect. Well,
(07:08):
I think that's the Yeah, I mean, the pressure that
I felt going into it is the need to pay
respects to so many people that came before us, and
there's something that happens when I suppose you know, yeah, yeah,
the San Francisco Ward scenes, which were obviously in episode eight.
(07:29):
There was a day where it fell on World Aide's Day,
and I think it started with the scene with Alison
William's amazing and the scene where she comes to visit Tim,
and then we ended up with, you know, going through
all of those scenes with Hawk. I think what was
amazing about this particularly is that everyone who was surrounding it,
everyone who sort of was designing it, had and so
(07:50):
many people do have uncles and brothers and loved ones
that they'd lost or that were living with AIDS or
they had looked after them. You know, you're go into
makeup in the morning and Jordan. I remember Jordan vividly
talking about caring for three of his friends, staying, you know,
sleeping on the floor of their bedrooms at night, and
it was just so real that at times it was actually,
(08:11):
you know, obviously overwhelming, but as it should be, because
I think that exactly is why Ron wanted.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
To write this story.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
It's why he took from the book and expanded into
the eighties, and I think that was what I was
found fascinating, especially telling the story of the Aids and
the act up. You know when they come up at
the end, is that you realize there is a you know,
it's joining the dots back to the fifties and about
how you know, the queer queer community has dropped at
(08:42):
various times in history, and it's all stems back from
sort of horrendous sort of narratives that are spun in
fear mongering, and so it's sort of I don't know.
It felt emotional and upsetting and but never for a
second not energizing. And yeah, it put a joy because
(09:04):
it felt that some sort of angels surrounding it.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Was an atmospheric change.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
I felt every decade helped, Like I felt like the
texture of the air between us changed a little bit.
And I think that was a testament to the respect
and the love you brought to the work. And every
time period, especially the eighties, and our production designer and
a crew who was so respectful of the material.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
It was like there was like a real.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
Tone on set of respect for the work, for the material,
and for the generation that we lost and all the
people whose stories we were taking part in. And you
felt like this sense that like there were just these
voices that kind of wanted to come through the story
because there were so many obstacles we hit over the
(09:53):
course of pre production and production and while we were
filming and putting it out and all these things, and
then we put it out there was a strike. But
something just wanted to come through in this story, and
all these things that seemed like obstacles ended up being
just kind of launching pads for us that helped us
out in the end.
Speaker 6 (10:12):
And also it was like incredibly I mean, it doesn't
sound it, but it was incredibly fun as well to me,
you know, And I think what I do really when
I say we've been spoiled, is like I really do
understand that what like representation means in terms of when
you do turn up and your opposite an actor without
having to say it, you're looking at each other in
(10:33):
these scenes going this is what we've hoped and wished
and thought that you know, we missing, and everyone is
that sort of level of focus that meant that everyone
was so respectful of it, but everyone just like lean
in and those days were long.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
But you know, with Noah Angelani.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
As well, it's the love story, I think in fellow
travelers that isn't talked about as much as the one
of friendship, particularly you know where you know they end
up together in the eighties and Marcus and Frankie going
to the West Coast and Tim following them. And I
think that's something that I have taken away from fellow travelers,
like what it actually means to be on a set
(11:12):
where you you're not you know, obviously as a white
gay man, you're still at the peak of privilege on
the Pride Flag, but it made such a difference to
not have to filter anything or there was so there
was so much energy gained from not having to you know,
having a shorthand that was an emotional tapestry, but it's
also hilarious and so yeah, I think that's that's the
(11:34):
sort of energy that was I found and that I
was like, I get it now, and I've always understood, Yeah,
well all ship, I don't know, So there's something magical
about it.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
Yeah, there was a real aspect of fow and family too,
and I feel like that bled over into the cast
as well.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Well, I think that's one of the many reasons why
this series is so magical. You watch it and every
character feels so connected to one another, I mean the.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Two of you.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
It's not easy to play a love story over four decades,
like let alone in one movie or one show, and
over one time period. That's challenging enough to make it
really believable and honest and authentic. To play that over
four decades is a testament to the work that you
two have done to really connect with one another. And
it's obvious. I mean even in the green room backstage,
(12:21):
I'm like, these guys are like brothers to each other.
Like it's so fun to see that relationship translate, you know,
from on screen to off screen. I'm curious to know.
There's so many powerful scenes throughout this series. I can
think of five right now at the top of my head.
But if you had one scene that you think will
forever stay with you.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
I will never will never forget the Friar Island, what
about Fire Island. There's so there is a lot in
Fire Island, and I'll never forget. But I do remember,
you know, obviously it's so important to the story, so
we mustn't laugh. But the obviously the Garden of Eden sequence,
(13:05):
and it was just it was it was amazing because
you know, obviously you had to show the cruising area.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
The it was dick dock me right, me, rack me rack.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Dick doc No, I did not know we were going
in this direction. But here we are. We're all friends here.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
It's right.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (13:30):
They amazing actors that came on to recreate it, and
it was just there was just one shot where I
think we just you know, obviously it was just like
kind of it was, you know, I've got nervous skiggles.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
I think every time we entered a new decade together,
that first scene we got, I mean, I have so many,
there's too many to just bring it down to one.
But every time I got to see what Johnny was
doing with the character and a new decade and the
temperature change and kind of seeing the history of the
character that he was bringing in the time period since
(14:01):
the last time I'd seen him, and was always so
revelatory to me. And just getting to be present with
that and work off of that was so I don't know,
it's just.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Really memorable to me.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
I'll never forget the first day we were in the seventies,
the first day we were in the sixties, the first
day we were in the eighties. It's all kind of
seared into me, and it was just such a partnership
from the get go, and it was always like a yes,
San and getting to see that and then trying to
bring what I was trying to bring, and then feed
off that and make it present and make it happen
(14:33):
when they were filming, and we never talked about it
very much. We kind of just tried to make it
happen when the scenes were happening. There was another one, obviously,
the last scene of the show. No one had told
me that we were going to have real patches of
the aides quilt, and it was one of those moments
where I was just leveled just walking onto that set
(14:56):
and then you have to just get out of your
way as an actor and let it it all come
through and trust this history that we'd created of thirty
five years together, and it was one of the last
things we filmed, and just walking and looking at those
squares and seeing the real Roy Cohen Square and it
was just, I mean, how could you ever forget a
(15:17):
moment like that?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
It was It was.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Beyond moving and a profound gift to get to even
be in the same frame as the Aid Squill.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
So yeah, that scene was unbelievable. It was one of
the most powerful scenes of the series, for sure, and
what a gift to be able to be a part
of that and to honor so many people in the
way that the both of you did.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
And there's a big initiative to have the aid Squill
displayed permanently, which I think everyone sto to get on.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Beautiful.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Hey, I thank your breath.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
I'm gonna see you again.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I'm gonna look outside and make sure it's clear take stairs.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
That seemed to me so little is said, but so
much is said. And I don't know how many people
in the audience today who are part of the community
feel this way. But for me, I know there were
moments where I felt like I had to sneak around
and be ashamed and hide who I was for fear
of what someone might think, for fear of being outed.
(16:38):
And seeing the two of you in that moment, feeling
that so vividly like it broke my heart. And it's
not such an obvious emotional scene, but it really broke
my heart. Did you feel that, did you have that
kind of same experience shooting it?
Speaker 6 (16:53):
I mean, it's just so sad that anyone has to
live like that. But I yeah, the stakes are so present,
aren't they security in the safety that they afford each
other in there, so they sort of hold each other
in a really beautiful way when they were allowed to
and they given space to and then the moment the
difference between a door and what that means for these
people at that point especially. But yeah, it's unfortunately, it's
(17:15):
a panic and an anxiety that I think we were
all born with.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
I hope that changes.
Speaker 6 (17:20):
But yeah, so's it's it's sad to play, but it's
it's easily accessed.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, sadly.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
I mean it's I feel like it was an undertone
throughout the entire series, this sense of longing and unable
inability to express everything that needed to be expressed to really,
you know, have a full relationship that's open to the world,
and you know, there's something that's bifurcated in that, I think,
(17:51):
and I don't know, for me, it was like I
could relate to it, certainly growing up in Texas and
figuring out my own identity and playing a game that
felt like it high stakes to me at the time
to just survive and get to New York City. So yeah,
it was I think it was an undertone throughout the
whole shop, but something really anyone from our community can
(18:12):
relate to on some level.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
And specifically at that time.
Speaker 6 (18:16):
I suppose as well, just the fact that a neighbor
and even a dog could be the thing that you know,
ends your career, like loses you your family. You know,
it's wild, it's wild, and it's such a beautiful you know.
Ron is such an incredible craftsman of moments. To go
(18:36):
from that the most serene like innocence of their love
to to the reality of the world outside, I think
is just brilliant. And therefore I always think in those
moments of shock and duality where you're suddenly exposed to
something as an audience, emotion can really and that's what
I think he really understands as well in storytelling.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, it's unexpected.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I also feel like anytime we got to be Supine,
we were so excited because we were so tired because
it was such a among filming schedule. I was like,
you look so beautific when you're sleeping in there, Like
he was probably so happy that he got to lay.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Did the two of you have a favorite decade that
you got to play.
Speaker 6 (19:18):
It's funny when you're talking about moments, do you really remember?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
But I do. Actually, I remember a lot about the.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
First scene when Tim comes back with information about the
executive order.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
That was quite late.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
That was another night shoot, but I remember really then
it felt to me that it was so like it
was the moment where we were going.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
I don't know how to say it.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
I'm so bad at talking about process, but it felt
like if you imagine putting up a tent. It was
like we'd chosen the spot we're going to put our
tent up, and then it was like watching each other
hammer down the guy rapes, and it felt like what
happened in that scene was created the blanket, the sort
of canvas by which then you'd grow anyway. But then
I feel like there were lynch scenes in every decade
(20:01):
that followed. I really remember another, and they seem to
always be Paradis night shoots. But in the in episode
seven in Fire Island, going back to my favorite moment, No,
this is a different moment in episode seven, but the
late night conversation where Tim reveals that he's actually seeing someone.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
And there was something and then you know, I can't.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm with you. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:30):
They all really did resonate in a different way, And
there were times I was always kind of excited to
get this, Like I'd spoken about, get to see what
the next decade was going to be like and what
people were bringing, and Johnny and Alison and Jelani and
Noah all brought such nuance to their performances in each decade.
It was just such a joy to get to watch
(20:51):
and take in and play with, play opposite, and there
were different I mean, I think there was something really
nice about the Bacchanalian freedom of Fire Island, even though
Hawk was like harboring that really tragic secret the whole episode,
like we'd been so buttoned up in the fifties for
three episodes straight and it was so repressed and bottled up,
and every director had been like, you're not allowed to emote.
(21:14):
You hold it all and you don't give anything away.
You are cold, you are the best poker player. And
then getting to just kind of let some of that
go and suddenly be in short shorts on the beach
with you.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I was like, what is happening right now? I don't know,
but I love it.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
And so it was just it was that was kind
of a special moment to get to.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
It was your volcanic shimmy.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It's been brilliant.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
But there was also because similarly in episode six as well,
do the scene around the fireplace. I was thinking about
this this week about it was it was about what
I mean, is that the relationship to their to the
assumed intimacy that happens, and especially in episode six where Tim.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
At that point is.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
Uh, you know, he's father Lawrence and he's been in
seminary and he's burning you know, it's so so sort
of devout at that point, and there were these key
moments where it's like, how do they address each other physically?
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Do you remember? I remember that was when people ask.
Speaker 6 (22:16):
About whether we talked about scenes and we I feel
like we didn't really until that was one where we
took ourselves off and we're like, actually, what is this?
And it was a bit where he you know, is
hugging Tim and Tim is trying to pull away, and
I feel that that sort of intimacy was also in
the scene that I was talking about in episode seven
or you know, where it's like and I thought that
was just so interesting and sometimes really you know, so
(22:38):
complicated because you have to you have to sort of
team up and actually.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Oh we did.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
It's when you're so grateful to have a scene partner
like Johnny who makes you better and inspires you to
do better and be better every day. Because we would
sidebar and we were like, you know, we'd go, okay,
we'd block this scene and we're like, okay, we have
like a loose idea what this is, but like now
let's really talk about like what's really going on, like
what would be this being? What if we tried this
and and then just let it come to life when
(23:06):
they called action. But I feel like those some of
those sidebar moments we have were really and this is
Ron's writing won the day for everyone involved in this project,
but they were really integral to some of the moments
with and.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
It's because of his detail that there were, you know,
there was so many different way but there's just the nuance.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
It's just it's incredible, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (23:26):
Because it's like if you're dancing with someone and you
can freestyle and like you can you know, come together
in freestyle, but then to actually have a choreograph moment
where you both can really just go hang on what
you know, what you what we say?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
You know, what are we saying together?
Speaker 6 (23:42):
What we're saying as actors about what we think these
gay men will be experiencing all these humans.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Yeah, in the sense of the eight count too, and
just find the freedom in it, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, we have so many dance metaphors.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
We're here for it. We're here for them all, keep
them coming.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
There's so many scenes, as you mentioned that that are
very you know, intimate and close and you have to
have so much trust with one another. So what is
it about one another that makes you feel safe because
you're really putting your full self into each other's hands.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Kindness literally and figuratively. Yeah, sense of humor. Yeah, I
think it's just who Johnny is.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
From the first time we met and we sat down
at that coffee shop which we've talked about, I'm sorry,
gold Struck Coffee on Cumberland Avenue, loud shout outs to
you in Toronto, and we just we just decided like
we were going to have each other's back. And I
think we both come from the theater initially, and we
have like a sense of what that process is. And
(24:42):
you know, in theater, when you're in that rehearsal room.
You have to have each other, You have to really
take some bold risks and have each other's back and
be willing to get ugly and fail and make have
bad takes and do things that aren't right. And I
just always had that sense from him, and I feel
like the intimacy on the show was so well written
that and I've said this before, but the characters were
(25:05):
never the same after an intimacy scene as they were before,
and to me, that's the mark of a really good
intimacy scene that's integral to the story. And it was
such a it was the most I've ever been. First
of all, I think it's one of the first times
I've not really dissociated when I've been an intimacy scenes
because it felt like an acting scene to me, because
what they were doing was such a reflection of both
(25:26):
of their reactions to an oppressive society. Hawk's raging against
it a need for control and Tim I don't want
to put words in your mouth, but being more willing
to let go and be open to things, and the
way they had this therapeutic way of coming together that
for Hawk especially, it felt like it was the freest
he ever was in the fifties.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
You know, I think that it's really rewarding to see
that offscreen relationship. As I mentioned earlier, it's so clear
it's there, and that's part of the magic is with
the series you really feel it.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
I also I think with my as well. You have
to remember that he was there from the get go,
and you were there in the pitch meetings. Ron and
Robbie invited you on board, and so from my experience,
Matt was the Well I spoke to Ron first, but
you know, we had a screen test, and in terms
of leadership, you don't get better really than Matt because
there's no sense of hierarchy. But it was just an
(26:18):
ever present. It was just always really fun and the
work was you know, you led with such a bright light.
I think that really allows everyone to have an amazing time,
and you need that in a leader of a series
like this.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
It was really Ron. You know.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
No, I'll tell you why because I was so and
I've talked about this too. I'm sorry I was cynical
about this. Initially, I was nan cynical. I was doubtful,
and I was trying to protect my own heart because
I love the story so much, I was trying to
protect myself from the disappointment of it nah going. But
the first time I read one of Ron's scripts, I thought,
(26:57):
they're going to make this show, I guess really to
happen because his writing was just it was undeniable, and
he was there for pretty much every take of every
scene we did, and I looked to him, and when
I was, you know, exhausted on our sixty whatever of
the week, I looked to Ron and this guy was
(27:17):
just like, you could see this was his baby and.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
You needed to treat it as such. You know.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
It was so inspiring, right, And also you can make
huge you can make big swings when you've got someone
like Ron, like just completely looking.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
Out for you and it.
Speaker 6 (27:33):
And my gosh, does he love the characters if it's
I'm not even sure it's.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Possible more than us, but he does.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
And I remember on Fire Island when we'd done three
episodes in the fifties, and I do remember that was
the one time I sat by the pool outside and
I'd gotten, you know, my tash on, and I was like,
is this gonna'? I was like, I know, how do
you stitch? You know, how do you carry the spirit
forward of and he just said, Johnny, he said, you do,
you do your thing. But He's like, I've got the story,
(28:01):
I've got.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
It in my you know, and I walk construct it.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
And it really is true that his it's his construction
of that story, in the writing of it, in the
conception of it, but in also the day to day
filming of it. When then the edit you know so much.
And also there were so many details as well, interestingly
that did you know that weren't involved in the final story,
which just shows how much of a wealth there is
(28:23):
in his brain about these And I have no idea
how you do that, but it felt it. Yeah, it
felt like, you know, having watched the Olympics called weeks ago,
it's like having one of those spotters doing when you're
doing the gymnastics, and you just know you're going to
get caught, So why not go for the Simone bars
number three?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Absolutely, Matt, you mentioned feeling a little.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Number three.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
We love we love Simone Biles moment.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
She's from my hometown's brain.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Is she really all right?
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I want to pick up on what you just said,
though for a minute you felt a little almost cynical
in the beginning, that this wouldn't actually happen, right, Did
you think that the world maybe wouldn't it be ready
for a story like this?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Did you have that fear again?
Speaker 5 (29:11):
And it's my fault, but I feel like maybe cynical
is the wrong word.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Doubtful might be more accurate.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
And again I was self protecting, admittedly, but I thought, Okay,
I knew how much money it would take to make
a period piece, and I thought, are they really going
to put the money into all this? And are they
really going to let it be an LGBTQIA plus love story?
And then are they going to let members of our
community actually be at the creative helm of that story?
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Like I just I don't.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
I couldn't recall seeing a lot of things out there
in the world like that.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
So I was just doubtful.
Speaker 5 (29:45):
But you know, we were so blessed to be at
showtime and ultimately Paramount Plus and Fremantle, because you know,
when you're developing things, a lot of times you get
these really restrictive notes like, oh, yeah, don't do that,
that's going to alienate this part of the audience.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Don't do that.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
You know women aren't going to like that, or you know,
you get those kinds of notes, and they.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Were the polar opposite.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
They were like, go farther, embarrass yourself, push yourself, scare yourself.
We dare you to push this as far as you can.
We're like what And so I feel like that sense
of permission like bled all the way over into our work.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
As actors as well.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
Or we could just jump off a cliff and I
knew Johnny would catch me and if it was you know,
or or Ron would edit it out or whatever we'd
have to do. You know, he can spind me like Simone.
And but yeah, it all did. Yeah, Like I don't know,
we were just very we were just I was so
(30:42):
moved and inspired by the fact that we had people
who weren't all members of our community, who were there
with the power, with the decision making capability to say.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
No, we believe in you.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Go go further tell your story to the furthest extent
that you can. That you know, obliterated every amount of
cynicism I ever had, honestly.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Well to be a part of a show that not
only is credited with saving people's lives literally, it's there's
so many stories of people who write about that to
also healing families and relationships. To your point, it's not
just for people in the community, it's literally healing a
world of people through your work, which I think is
(31:26):
a huge testament. And thank god this series was made.
Am I right? Thank God? Thank god? All right, boys,
we got some fan questions up in here.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Are you ready for them?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, okay, I'm not responsible for anything that's about to
come out of my mouth.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Peter H. Peter, thank you for your question.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
What is something in today's world that you wish your
characters would be able to see or experiences? Congrats on
the Immy nominations.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
Him would be living his best life?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, well he would.
Speaker 6 (32:13):
Yeah, I mean he would be so proud of bits
of you know, how communities progressed.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
My goodness, what question. God, there's so much I mean,
he yeah, there's so much.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I mean he would.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
I mean the fact that I think for him it
would be about education and about the inclusion of queerness
and gayness in schools I think, which I know you
know we still have in the UK. But I think
he'd be incredibly proud. I mean, there's such an earnest response.
But yeah, he'd I think he would just love gay
marriage and to be able to be with He's so
(32:51):
he loved so fiercely, and I think, yeah, he would
have wanted to stand by someone and to be able
to let go of all that shame, I think and
he would have done as well.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
I would love to see a photo album, just a
bunch of different weddings like enjoying it all.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Okay, I'm gonna go to Ernest Draught too.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
I would say it would be so beautiful for Hawk
to get to see a world where he could have
everything that he thought he needed to sacrifice everything to have,
but also not have to sacrifice any.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Of that to have it. Does that make sense?
Speaker 5 (33:27):
A world where he could have the job in the government,
have the life in Italy, also have the love of
his life, and also not have to feel like just
kissing him in public wasn't a completely revolutionary.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Act, beautifully said?
Speaker 1 (33:41):
All right, Laura, Laura's up next, Matt, what was your
favorite scene or performance of Jonathan's And Jonathan what was
your favorite of Matt's?
Speaker 4 (33:49):
I can answer that.
Speaker 6 (33:50):
Sorry, my mind is blown with the performance of the
polygraph test. I just think it's one of the most
stunning sequences performed on TV. I do I really, I think,
how do you do that? There's nothing seemingly happening physically,
but you know exactly what is going on, and the
(34:10):
building pressure and everything that Hawk is as an animal
is featured in that sequence, and I think, yeah, I
think it's beautiful, and yeah, you can't really compare it
to sort of thing.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
I think it's it's very kind of you to say
we had an amazing director who I feel like did
so much of that work. But but but yeah, thank you, thank.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
You, compliments got it honestly.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
I mean it's so hard for me to pick just
one because Johnny was so brilliant and so many of
our scenes and just the what he would bring to
the table would force me into the moment and bring
me right there with him, and I just feel like
a lot of it, and I'll just go sequentially, Okay,
(35:00):
the fifties when you wrote when you when you hung
out of the party and I make you write the letter.
I mean, just seeing everything his character was going through,
but also having to like steal myself from that was
like one of the hardest things I've ever had here. Yes,
that and just the subtlety and the nuance of seeing
(35:24):
this lost kid who was so ahead of his time.
It was just all written across your face. And you know,
I loved you in the seventies.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I think a lot of people did, just saying.
Speaker 5 (35:39):
Yeah, but also just the beauty of what he had
brought from the sixties, because I knew what happened in
the sixties and I saw him bring that in in
the seventies and was like, it was the first time
I saw you was like a fully realized man and.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
It was like whoa it was. It just it just
brought me right into the scene.
Speaker 6 (35:59):
Because with the first scene we shot in the seventies,
what was our sort of day trip to the beach
where was the book? And he checks in on Hawk
and he's sort of studying and you come out to sea. Yeah,
I remember likewise seeing you know that it was unbelievably moved,
Like the sort of the spiraling of Hawk was ovident.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
But we hadn't seen each other until we got to
the beach.
Speaker 5 (36:21):
Yes, and I remember that it was another one of
those scenes that you're talking about that Ron writes, it's
so unexpected in such a judged to position emotionally, because
Hawk at the time is like flirting with death, trying
to kill himself and see if he has the courage
to swim out far enough that he can't make it back.
And he pushes himself that day, and then he gets
to the beach and there's the love of his life
waiting for him, who like brings him back to life.
Speaker 6 (36:43):
And there's also something about him at that point has
developed the ability to sit and observe and not.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
By his emotions.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
And yes, it's.
Speaker 6 (36:53):
So interesting when the person that you that knows you intimately,
you can't hide behind it. And at that point Hawk
is just with all tension, it's holding on to try
some semblance of being okay, and Tim can just see,
which I think is powerful.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
I mean, I'm sitting up here grinning like a fool,
because how satisfying is that to hear them talk about
these scenes that we've been watching and loving right for
so long. It's truly amazing to hear you, you know,
kind of pick them apart in that way. All right, Nicole,
see as well.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
I have to say one other scene. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, y'all. Sorry, Nicole, sorry,
the last scene we had together in the eighties.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Oh yeah, outside the strength and the poignancy.
Speaker 5 (37:35):
You don't understand how great an actor you have to
be to play Tim in that scene and not lean
into the sentimentality too far, but have it be earned
and just come from the soul and just come through
the eyes so beautifully in such a human way that
it really would was like, wow, that's like the degree
of difficulty on that is unheard of, and just it
(37:58):
was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Is really that is wrong? That is that really is?
Speaker 6 (38:04):
You know, technically in a scene like that, I remember
we cross shot that.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Do you remember by that?
Speaker 6 (38:09):
And so basically what you see is a live reaction
because you know, you know when you film the scenes
sometimes I don't know, I like what sometimes it's just film,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Do you know what? Yeah? So we were both being
filmed at the same time.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (38:24):
Yeah, And it was so it was silent, you know,
usually there was something it was like a real it
was like.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
A gentle snowfall, yeah moments. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (38:34):
And there was a sequence that wasn't in the finished
edit where Tim and Hawk arrive at the gala. Do
you remember, yes, Yeah, And there was the young activists
that were fighting.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, yeah, that meantal art to you, huh, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (38:52):
But I mean yeah, it just they rose that, you know,
they rose their fist to Tim, and I think Hawk
sort of acknowledged it, but I mean it was just yeah.
I mean I think that the scene, you know, obviously
the dec you know, that's the you know, that's the
big operatic moment, I suppose, and I think the whole
crew and everyone it was something there was a simplicity
(39:12):
to it by that point because all the work's done,
you know, for Tim as well, and that's what's so
they've had their amazing and that's the end of their amazing,
beautiful sort of operatic life romance romance.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Then that's it.
Speaker 6 (39:27):
And I think there was not much more to say,
and it was clear for Tim for the first time
in his life. And that's to do with that is
literally to do with Ron's experience and his understanding of
you know, his own life, I suppose, but also interpreting
other people's and that's what made it.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
So I think it was. Yeah, I do think.
Speaker 6 (39:45):
It was so how you know, the nerve because we
didn't get episode eight for a while, and as we
were building momentum and you're like, oh my gosh, you
see Noah Jelani and knowing the sort of wealth of
you know, with Allison coming in and getting a sense
of that because it was so me and Matt for
so long and then you'd see bits you'd be like,
my god, this is and never doubting it, but just
being so excited to see how a master can tie
(40:07):
that all up. And it was amazing how he did it.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
And there were a lot of things and flux up
under the very end. Remember there used to be a
milk scene or the milk scene was very different.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
Remember what they want?
Speaker 5 (40:25):
Yes, well there were many iterations, but are you talking about.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
The candle wax?
Speaker 4 (40:29):
The candle wax?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
A little speechless?
Speaker 5 (40:36):
All right, We were finding these things out like a
week before we do them.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
And so it was.
Speaker 5 (40:40):
But Ron had the whole thing mapped out in his
mind and he knew had a tetris in the perfect
thing to really bring the full arc of the relationship.
Speaker 6 (40:48):
And he knew that it was the aides quill that
he was going to. That that was his vignette that
I think at points, you know, there were conversations about
they could and different ways, and he was just like
that is how it ends, and I think that was
one of his first images that came to his head
when he considered adapting the novel.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
I just think it's so powerful, the zooming out.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
And then yeah, I know it's it brought many people
to tears, I'm sure of it. Sticking on theme with
different scene work. This is from Nicole Cea, who's watching
on the live stream Hawks breakdown on Fire Island and
the way in which Tim really takes care of him
is so moving. What was each of your experience like
filming that.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
I don't know why my.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Brain goes to I just.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Well, I think I'm nervous.
Speaker 6 (41:31):
I mean it was so emotionally, it was, you know,
huge and upsetting, and you know, Matt, it's so easy
to obviously as Tim look after Hawk when Matt was
giving that performance.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
But I do remember your.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Wig fell off a little bit, wig fell off.
Speaker 4 (41:45):
Your wig fell off?
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Oh I did?
Speaker 5 (41:46):
Oh you put it back one so that they wouldn't
lose the tears coming out of it.
Speaker 4 (41:52):
I was like saying it stay in it. Yeah, but
it was because it was you know, it was really.
Speaker 5 (41:57):
Yeah, it was a handsy scene in many ways. I
you know that honestly, that was the That was one
of the more challenging things I've ever had to do
in my life. It was obviously so raw emotionally, but
what Destiny did that was kind of a favor to us,
but was also terrifying.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
There was no like cut between.
Speaker 5 (42:18):
We had to play out the whole sex scene all
the way through the end of the breakdown, so there
was no it's not like they separated out the two,
which was obviously kind of terrifying as a performer, But ultimately,
I think all the drug fueled just bacchanalian desire, and
it mixed with the anger and the frustration and the
(42:40):
turn and the scene. I think she really did us
all a great service in that, you know, and that
and that she let us play out the entirety of it.
Speaker 6 (42:48):
Yeah, And that's another example of Rum's like how you
think the scene, you know, is so indulgent in the
power play between the three of them and the needs
are all so explicit, and then for it to be
for the picture of Jackson to be spotted, I think
it was that was like a wild ride. But that's
(43:10):
you know, I just again just you know, you're seeing
you're seeing sort of Lamborghini at work there and you
just sort of you know all Tim has to do,
you know, you just have to listen and be there.
Speaker 5 (43:20):
But it was brutal, but I did feel that I
felt everything that you I felt. That was one of
those moments that we talked about in that coffee shop
where you were there for me on every level, not
only when we were filming, but when the cameras were
in between and every everything else. And it is a
testament to Ron's writing though, because it is so reflective.
You know, it's almost the same way with his alcohol intake,
(43:42):
that you don't come for that secret he harbors or
he lashes out at you, and it was it was
kind of an echo of that when he has a
tragic secret, if you try to find it or uncovered,
he attacks.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Well, we're going to finish up with two lighthearted questions
from the audience. Began will like to know would Hawk
and Skippy support brat Summer?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Megan, I love you. What a great question. That's part one.
Speaker 5 (44:14):
Skippy for sure, right, He's he's like friends with Charlie X.
Speaker 4 (44:21):
He was at her birthday party.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Good day.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
I think that's basically what Fire Island was for them.
Speaker 5 (44:29):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, Hawk likes watching the Twinks, enjoy Brat Summer.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
Yeah, and other people too.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
But Megie, so I think that answers who is the
bigger Bratt.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
Probably Hawk, Yeah, you and a bust and as people
or our characters, I think we should go for both.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
No, don't make us do that. I don't even know
what Bratt Summer means.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I don't even.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
I'm still trying to figure it out. There's a dance
on TikTok.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
I know that.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah, we'll learn it and we'll do it and we'll
post it. Okay. Last question, and this is I guess
a lot of people asked. It's so many names on this,
lots of milk questions. Jack and Jonathan, Jonathan, how much
milk did you drink? What kind was it?
Speaker 4 (45:24):
It's oat milk for me.
Speaker 6 (45:27):
I drank probably about seventeen liters.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
No, No, do you know what we did that?
Speaker 4 (45:34):
Really quickly?
Speaker 3 (45:35):
Did it?
Speaker 6 (45:36):
I'd taken a half yeah after about yeah, I mean
twenty year, seventeen hour day. Yeah, I remember at the
beginning of that, knowing that scene that was at the
end of the day and you looked down at the
cool sheet, like we've done one. We've done one scene
and we've got seven to go, and it's like it
was literally.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Much in the morning. Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 6 (45:56):
It was what you know, but yeah, so actually not
not that much milk, but it was for me, it
was out did you.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
Mind opportunity to talk about your charity if you want to?
Speaker 3 (46:09):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's great audience.
Speaker 5 (46:11):
Yeah, beautiful thing that Jonathan did that parlayed some of
the work and awareness we did on the show and
turned it into something much bigger and a great way
to give back to the community.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (46:21):
Well, I think I do think that's something that was
totally inspired by you know, obviously inspired by fellow shovelers,
but just the experience of telling the story. And yeah,
I mean the T shirt sold out straight away, but
I think that's because of Matt's command. Well, the name
of the organization is is the Shameless Fund.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
And we can look online about up looking we can.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
And it's gonna you know, it will. Yeah, I'm excited.
I'm really excited. It feels like a sort of a
really interesting way of being able to support multiple charities
as we go forward and twenty twenty five over the year,
where we can start identifying the grants, but there's amazing
ways in doing something because it's kind of over I
think when you know, you get asked to get involved
(47:02):
with different charities, and I just sort of felt, obviously,
you know, you wanted to. There's so many brilliant causes
out there, and so wanted to come up with a
way that you could disperse and also raise the profile
of nonprofits. And because you know, how else do you
is this sense of obileilm isn't there with charities anyway?
Shameless FUM would be a way that you can support
(47:24):
those by, you know, hopefully buying some vibe stuff along
the way.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yeah, well, good on you, you guys. This has been
one of the most gratifying interviews I've gotten to do
in my career. I love when I get to highlight
work that actually says something and that.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Means so much to so many people.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
And to talk to two trailblazers in the community going
out there and fighting the good fight through art, because
I think nothing is more powerful than that. And I
know this whole room is grateful for your gifts and
your artistry. I'm so grateful for it. And I think
my friend Celesties backstage, I want to celebrate the night
and kick it off with a little glass of oat milk.
(48:12):
The other character in the series.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
To these two.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Gentlemen, thank you for a beautiful night.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Thank you, thank you. It's here, sure, everybody.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
I've Never Said This Before is hosted by Me Tommy Dedario.
This podcast is executive produced by Andrew Publisi at iHeartRadio
and by Me Tommy, with editing by Joshua Colaudney. I've
Never Said This Before is part of the Elvis Durant
podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more, rate, review and
subscribe to our show and if you liked this episode,
(48:49):
tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy Dedario.
Elvis Duran and the Morning Show ON DEMAND News
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