Modern Friendship with Special Guest, Author Anna Goldfarb

In this “girls only” episode, Lisa welcomes her friend-in-the-making — journalist and friendship expert Anna Goldfarb, author of “Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections.” The Nick-less duo talk everything friendship, from why “best friend” isn’t a lifetime guarantee, to the awkward art of setting boundaries. In this sharp, insightful, and very real conversation, Lisa and Anna break down the comedy—and the chaos—of maintaining adult friendships. Warning: might be a little TOO real if you’re still trauma-bonded with your college roommate.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Lisa Lampinelli is not a licensed therapist or life coach.
She is a meddling advice giving yanta and know it
all and her words come from her head, her heart,
and often out of her ass. This podcast should not
be misconstrued as therapy. I should be taking with a
huge grain of salt for entertainment purposes only.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
These.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
You need help, You're the problems.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Come on, come.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Down, go cramb take a pill. I think you're insane.
Do what I say, dumb ass, listen to me. You
Oh my god, we're back again. I'm in. That's sturday. Wow,

(00:53):
it's Lisa Lampinelli. You're listening to the podcast that no
one is talking about. Shrink this with Lee Selambinelles. Shrinking
means we shrink your problems, We shrink your heads, and
we shrink your penis. And today to help shrink our
penises is, of course, our producers.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Celia.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Oh, she decided not to be on the mic because
she's unprofessional. Because I have to school this bitch every week. Hi, Celia, Okay,
watch now she has to run to a Okay, literally,
who employs you?

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Hey?

Speaker 3 (01:27):
Do you get paid for this show? Because I object
to every sin you're making. That's okay, okay, but just hi, Celia,
because guess why I introduced you. Why because today is
the rare all female gender episode. Because Nick kind of
identifies as a he. She it, but we kicked him
out of the studio today because we have a special guest,

(01:49):
because the topic of friendship is always top of Lisa
Lebinelli's mind, because I'm no significant other by choice, no
family by death, and so we have friendship X for
Anna Goldfarb, who, by the way, I've become my best
friends with real who wrote the Bible in my opinion,
on friendship called modern friendship. If you don't have it,

(02:09):
get it. Go to BN dot com. See do you
like that Barnes and Nobles, I promote the little guys.
Go to the other websites that carry the books and
get this book because it will save your friendships. It
saved my ass. Anna, thank you for coming in.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I got my pleasure. I'm so excited to be here
with you. I'm so excited.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
Poor Anna. She braved the trench weather coming from Philadelphia,
and I said, I hope you came for something better
than this, and She's like, no, I came to see you,
and I said, well, you'll be disappointed, but not like
I haven't told that to countless men. So anyway, what
we're going to do today is we're going to talk
to Anna as a second part of our friendship episode

(02:48):
because a few weeks ago or last week or whenever,
because like I do a lot, I can't be responsible
for memory everything. We did an episode called searching for
the One, which means not in a romantic sense, but
in a friendship way, because I seem to always be
searching for the one. The person who's going to come
in be the bestie, so you can get them the

(03:09):
mug and the T shirt and get them the matching
beer cozies, even if you don't drink. But it always
seems to like kind of be a false start. And
I don't know if best friendship is a false narrative
or something real. So, having written the book Modern Friendship,
which by the way, is fantastic, do you believe in

(03:29):
the concept of the one or the best friend?

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, I believe in the concept of roles, and the
people in our lives play specific roles for us, and
it really depends on the person of what kind of
roles they're providing for other people and what other people
provide for them. For instance, my husband is my companion,
so that's a special role that he plays, right. But

(03:54):
one of my best friends, you know, she plays another role.
She's my collaborator, and I want to try something new,
you know, try a new lipstick, try a new restaurant.
She's always down to do something new, right, So it's
more how these parts interact with us. One of the
first things I learned about friendship was that friendships can
end at any time for any reason. They're very fragile. Yeah,

(04:16):
and so I understand, you know, questioning the construct of
if something so fragile, like, is this something we should
be pursuing? Right? Like, these things can break you up people.
I mean, the world's a complicated, unpredictable place. People get depression,
people get grieve, people lose their jobs, and that all

(04:36):
influences who they seek out right, Right, So it's more
about learning how to be flexible and surf the wave
instead of getting sucked under the wave.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
So do you think there's I think what I'm hearing
it sounds almost damaging to go out and try to
look for the person who'll fulfill everything. Friendship wise, Well,
that's backwards.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
But you look for first is something you love to do,
and then the goal is to find someone who loves
what you love. Because every friendship needs an about, and
the about needs to be clear and compelling to both people.
So I think people do it backwards. They think friendship
is about affection, and affection isn't enough to keep a

(05:21):
friendship active. And that's where a lot of self doubt
comes in of well, I love my friends, but I
never hear from them. Maybe friendship isn't like so great.
But what people misunderstand about the way friendship works is
that it's really about finding something you love and want
to geek out about, want to experience, and finding someone
to do that with you, and that's what friendship develops.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
That's such a weird I mean, it's a great idea,
but it sounds to me almost like how I've always
viewed men have friendships, So meaning, I love baseball, so
here are my guys from the baseball team, or it's
usually softball by the time they get over thirty because
their knees don't work anymore. Or oh, I love movies,
so it's all my buddies who love movies. That sounds

(06:04):
to me masculine, where women I don't, or just me
or women I've talked to, it's like, oh no, some
of the but it could vibe with It's more of
like a fluid thing. It's not a tangible. So if
I find some like if I have a hobby of say,
I love going to Broadway shows, right looking for a

(06:24):
person who fulfills that or running into somebody who's like,
oh you like that too, cool? I was like, Oh,
are they just your Broadway show friend? How can that
deepen into like an actual friendship where you're telling each
other stuff?

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Okay, that's a great question. And my favorite text to
understand how friendship works is through Hollywood Walk of Theme speeches. Oh,
if you've ever watched a Hollywood Walk of Theme speech,
it lays out exactly how friendships develop and form and
are maintained. One of my favorite ones is math McConaughey

(07:01):
at Guy Fieri's Hollywood Walk of Fame speech.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Are they friends?

Speaker 2 (07:04):
They are close friends?

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Okay, that's random, but I get it. They're both stones.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
There's photographic evidence of them playing bongos together, like they
definitely connect. But you can look this speech up on YouTube,
Matthew McConaughey is sharing the story of his friendship with
Guy Fieri. You know Diners, Drive Ins and Dives Flavortown,
and Matthew McConaughey explains, I was an actor going across

(07:30):
the country in not Annesota stream an airstream. Oh my god, yeah,
on an airstream and he really Matthew McConaughey loved the
show Diners, Drive Ins and Dives, and Matthew McConaughey says
that he was going to be in Spokane the following week,
so he reached out to Guy Fieri and said, Hey,

(07:50):
I'll be in Spokane. Where should I eat? What would
you recommend? And Guy Fieri was like, oh my god,
you should go here and here. These are my favorite spots.
And they created a friendship around where to eat.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
Oh my god, I love that.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
So then Matthew mcconaughe would check it. I'm going to
be in Tucson. Where should I eat? I'm going to
be here? Where should I eat? And that's what their
friendship was about at first, like where to eat? But
then what happened was that Matthew McConaughey moved to La
and Guy Fieri moved to la and then they connected
over deeper values, a family dealing with fame, spirituality, and

(08:24):
that's how their friendship deepened, and that's how they become
became like best friends for one another. So it started
with the where should I eat? But then it developed
on the values. So that's how it that's how it works.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
That makes so much sense to me because I have
a good friend. I've talked about him before. Bobby, and
we met doing a community theater production of Barnum. Okay,
now I am not the greatest actress, singer, dancer, triple
threat of all time. One of the best, but not
the best. So I'm like, oh, I like me. I

(09:00):
like the idea of community. I like like this silly
theater thing we're doing. And at first I was like, okay,
we have this in common, me and this guy Bobby.
He's only thirty two, so I'm like, well, how much
could I really have in common with the thirty two
year old guy? But then like over time of going
to shows, of being in other little productions together and
just like vibing and go to movies. He's a very

(09:21):
available person, which I love because so am I like
someone who'll be like, oh, let's go to the movies tonight.
I love that I'm not big, Like I gotta stay
in my house and like have my introvert time. And
then over the you know course of like five years,
I'm like, oh, he has the same values I have. Like,
he has the same politics I have. He's very open

(09:42):
to learning and going to the shrink and going to
meditation classes and stuff like.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
So it grew from just that little silly play. So
I get it, but you know what it requires that
I don't usually have his patients. So it sounds like
with the guy Fieri example, and McConaughey, they put in
the time, yeah, and patiently we're like, oh, let's see
where this goes without the pressure of oh my god,
I've got to gather community or friends.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
It's the patience of doing something you already love doing.
That's the key. You know, study show it takes about
two hundred hours to go from stranger to close friends. Wow,
two hundred hours. So when we're younger, we have way
more free time, where our lives are simpler, where we
don't have to be as many things, know as many people,

(10:30):
So your friendship can be about you know, stuff in school, plays,
a team you're on. But a lot of those abouts
don't translate to when you get older. Right, So that's
the trick is we're getting older, what do I really
care about? And then giving friendships time to bake of, like,
let's spend a lot of time together, and that's where

(10:52):
the values emerge. Actually, a mismatch in values is one
of the top five reasons friendships buckle. Yeah, so are
really important, but that's not what kicks off a friendship.
It's the it's the about. And actually I share a
story in my book about my friend Adam who worked
at the Apple Store and he went got a comic book,

(11:13):
and his co worker, Octavius, noticed, Oh, you're into comic books,
and they started a friendship about comic books, talking on
the phone about comic books, started a podcast about.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
Comic Oh, oh, my god.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
And what happened was Octavius was sick and needed a
kidney transplant, and two of his family members had already
been ruled out like they weren't appropriate matches. But my
friend Adam says, I'll do it, like I want to help,
and my friend Adam donated his kidney, saved his friend's life,
and Octavius named Adam as the godparent to his to

(11:46):
his newborn daughter, so now they're family.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
But it started with comic book, right, Like that's how
powerful having a clear and compelling about can be.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
Sure, But you want what I go to is I
need to know all your values first, because I'm not
spending my time with some guy who voted for the
demise of the gay community. So I almost I there's
this documentary I'm only halfway through. I'm sure you watch
a Join or Die on Netflix about like how people

(12:19):
used to join clubs all the time, the rotary knitting clubs, libraries,
like they used to do that and people don't do
that as much anymore, and it's sad. But I'm like,
but what if I join? I Suppose I haven't, which
I don't a profound interest in knitting. Of course I don't,
But suppose I did, Suppose I was that chick. Suppose
I join it, and then there's a person in there

(12:41):
who doesn't like the gays or who doesn't like black people,
like how then I would probably not show up again
because if they like her, I can't like them. So
how do you get around that way of thinking, to
open yourself up to the other maybe four or five
people that might have your values.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, that's part of the of making new friends. That's
the risk of it is you might uncover something or
even friends that we love and we have a lot
in common with, but then they betray you or something
happened even though you like it's so it's so earthquaking
because you're like, I thought I knew this person, but
then you realize your values aren't the same. So, you know,

(13:23):
I wanted that's actually one of the questions I wanted
to investigate of how do I know if I'm picking
good friends? You know, I have a tattered trail of
busted friendships, so like, was it me? Was it them?
And I learned that these are very common things, Like
this is so common. But what's not common is we're
meeting so many more people than our grandparents ever did.

(13:47):
And that's true. Yeah, I think of your grandma. You know,
my grandma was married at eighteen, never went to college.
You know, she was a stay at home mom. She
wasn't meeting friends and then being blasted apart from them,
and they're living all over the country and she has
to figure out how to keep up these connections. Her
friends were people she's known since first grade that all

(14:08):
lived in the same town their whole life. I mean,
it's just very different challenges than we have we we
I mean, that's part of the beauty and the burden
of modern friendship is we have so much more flexibility
with who we can befriend. Just think of the interests
we have that weren't even didn't exist right sixty years ago.
Like I'm really into Harry Potter. I'm into Harry Potter.

(14:29):
Let's be friends. And it's right. There wasn't anything like
that one hundred years ago that people could They've usually
got together over. You know, we're in the same religion,
were we go the same church. We you know, we're
in the same race, same gender, identity, shame roles in life.
You know, we're both mothers, we both aren't parents, So

(14:49):
it's harder for us to make connections with people where
that's not what we have in common. So what what
is what our friendship is about? Right? We have to
try a little harder. We don't have that built in
of oh, our kids all went to the same school,
or our kids grew up together. So the that's historically
new for women.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
That's true. Like we my mother had the same group
of four women all my life and probably to the
end of her life. Mostly these were her best friends.
They met at church and I said to her her
after she died, I said, to her friend, who's still alive?
Who's I think she's ninety now, I said, missus O'Keefe, like,
what did you guys have in common? She like we

(15:29):
were moms like that. And I'm like, well, yeah, miss
o'keef's a badass, you know. So it's like, oh, all right,
so but I don't have that, you know. And also,
but I think what's funny is like I have my
co host of podcast, Nick and two other friends have
met every Tuesday for the last three years, which is
a long standing commitment. And it started out that I

(15:52):
was going to ostensibly help them with jokes. We don't
even open a notebook anymore. For the past like year,
We're just like vibe every Tuesday. The diner owner knows
to let us, you know, check ourselves out, Like he's like, okay,
I'm leaving you guys, lock the door. And I'm like, oh,
it did start with an activity or an interest, like

(16:13):
you say, which is comedy. And also my trigger of like,
oh I want to be involved is helping. I'm so
helpful to a fault, and it's a fault sometimes. And
then it did emerge that our values were similar and
that you know, nobody here is going to you know,

(16:33):
be a racist, or no one here is going to
be sexist, or yeah, we're going to joke around a lot.
But oh, we do kind of feel the same way
about life. So maybe just finding those people through joiny
kind of channels or community based things does lead to
something good.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yes, And what could be helpful here is having the
right language. You know, friendship is such an ambiguous subject,
such an a friend is an ambiguous word of what
is a friend? What do we mean when we talk
about friends? There's best friends, you know, there's even two
different categories of friendships. There's active friendships and nostalgic friendships.

(17:15):
Of active friendships, we see them all the time. We
have a very compelling reason to stay in touch. But
we have our nostalgic friendships too, where there really isn't
a reason to be in touch even though we like,
we love them. You know, we'd go to you know,
a wedding, well, wedding, our funeral.

Speaker 3 (17:30):
But that's funeral my age.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, okay, Like you'd make the effort for those big events,
but there's not really a reason to call them on
a Tuesday. You don't have an active reason.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
To be in touch, right. I almost think I tried
to force those things too much. I have several friends
and I'll put it in quotes because probably good to quote,
and says who live in Vegas. And I think I

(18:04):
had a fantasy that it would become like a yearly thing,
like I'd go out and we'd all hang out, and
it'd be these like it's two gay couples and myself
and my friend Bobby would go and we went I
think two or three years in a row, maybe, But
I was noticing we weren't getting squeezed in as much
as I thought we would. It would be just a
dinner versus the whole evening. And I was like, oh,

(18:27):
there's nothing wrong with this, just being a little nostalgic,
but also a little bit like, oh, they're not top
tier without making it sound so hierarchical, but that's okay.
It seemed at first like it wasn't okay, like well,
why didn't this happen? This was a total failure. It's like, no,

(18:47):
if you're ever out there again, you can hang out.
But if they're not top of mind all the time,
it's almost making a judgment free about that.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, and it's not taking it personally. Well, what's our
friendship about while we live across the country? You know?
Do I help these my friends in any practical way?
Do they rely on me for anything? And if the
answer is no, it's like, okay, well I can kind
of see why they're not making as much of an effort.
They probably have people closer to that that do help

(19:17):
them with running their lives, and the things that are
important to them are more important to them.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
Right, So when you say the word help, do you
think that has a part in most good friendships? A
helpful sort of back and forth.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Well, that's a great question. And there was a study
done in twenty twenty one that found that the five
reasons people tend to make friends our career mating what
they call desirable qualities, which means that someone's really fun
to be around. There's chemistry, and there's hobbies and passions
in common, like they's attractive to be their friend. Yes,

(19:55):
emotional support was the fourth reason, and the fifth is
what they call sociability, which is basically out and about,
like you want to be at the diner, be around
other people. You want to join the kickball league or
the book club, just to be in the mix. And
so when we talk about helping our friends, I find
it helpful to narrow down to those those spheres of

(20:17):
am I helping my friend with their career? If you
have a friend where you're not in the same career,
it can be like they might want to priority If
they really care about their career, they're probably going to
prioritize people that can help them with that thing.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, that was really like a light bulb moment for
me of like some of my older friends from childhood
of like, well, why aren't we in touch? But we're
in totally different We're totally separate career fields, right, So like,
what are we going to talk about? We usually talk
about our past, and how compelling is that? Well, maybe
every eight years you want to talk about the past.

(20:52):
It's not every.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
Week, right, Oh wow, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
And with mating, that's a lot more like when you're
younger and you want to you know, have friends introduce
you to other people, want to meet people for other people.
But honestly, forty percent of people meet their partner through
apps dating apps, right, So it's not even like you
need friends anymore to necessarily meet.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
It used to be where, oh, I have this great
guy in my college class and they'll introduce you.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, and now it's like you're just swiping. So friends
have sort of taken on. They're not as important in
that sphere. Emotional support is a well I just passed
them desirable qualities. Desirable qualities will always be always be attractive, yes,
but it also might be short lived. If we're into
marathons and then you break your leg, well, what's our

(21:41):
friendship going to be about? What we're going to do together?
So it needs more negotiation. It might there's potential it
might need more negotiation. Emotional support. If you know a
lot of women there their friendships are just running on
emotional support. But then you know if one friend has
a baby or has a health issue, where that can't

(22:03):
be the priority. I can't just give emotional support out right.
I have my own stuff going on, so this isn't
as compelling to me to be my emotional support from
my friend. So then it's like, well, what's our friendship?
Why should we be in touch?

Speaker 3 (22:17):
That's interesting, Yeah, because I had a friend during the
pandemic and right before who I guess she was starting
a business and having a baby at the same time
and I was doing neither. So I remember I was
all really hurt and took it very personally that we

(22:42):
finally had arranged a phone call and she is like, Hi,
what's it been like six weeks since we talked? And
I like, I go, it's six been six months and
she's like no, I go, no, dude, I swear it's Lisa,
Like did you Like I wasn't being sarcastic. I was like,
that's who you're calling, Like it's been six months. It's like,

(23:06):
you gotta be kidding. And I said, look, I know
how hard it is because I have a niece who
just had a baby. I must be all consuming. You
have no idea, And I'm sure she's right, I'm sure
I have no idea or at least barely an idea.
And I said, well, maybe we could do something where
like I don't know, like check in every two weeks
or what. I don't have the bandwidth, I just can't

(23:28):
have anything more added, and like, I never heard from
her again. So I'm not saying I handled it right.
I'm not saying she handled it wrong or vice versa.
But I think when someone's focus is so elsewhere, they
don't have any time for any ancillary stuff. So it
just felt really sad to me.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
You know, you know what I did when I was
faced with that situation with one of my best friends
who had two children during the pandemic. By the time
I finally sat down with her, it was about six
easily six months since we've seen each other, probably longer, honestly,
And the first thing I said to her before the
waitress even dropped off our menus, was I think about

(24:12):
you all the time, and I know you think about
me all the time too. It's okay. I know that
we're not able to see each other as much as
we want, but I'm always here for you. I'm not
going anywhere.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
See that's why you wrote the book Mine would be
called you know.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
It's just like, all right, but what the impact of that,
of giving my friend permission of I know that you
miss me, I miss you too. I know you wish
we could be together more, but it's it's okay, I'm
not going anywhere. The following year, for her birthday, she
said all she wanted for a birthday was a slumber
party with me, and she rearranged her life and we

(24:48):
had a slumber party together. But since I gave her
permission of saying, I under, I give you the benefit
of the doubt here. I love you, I'm not going anywhere.
Our friendship has now I do have that friendship I
wanted where we make an effort.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Well, I think that's the problem, my issue of whether
it's a anxious attachment or whatever it is dictated, Well,
she probably doesn't think of me, Yeah, of course. And
it was just like, oh, handling it that way would
have not even dawned on me because I couldn't fully say,
I know, you think about me all the time. I mean,
because in my head, I'm an anxious attachment. So I'm probably like,

(25:27):
probably doesn't think of me, you know. So I think
that's okay to like grow from that and be like,
all right, So that was my shit to solve. And
that's why I like your book, because it like kind
of puts it on you to solve your shit too. Like,
it's not always about oh, writing a narrative about that
other person and how they've wronged you or how they've

(25:50):
ft you. You know, because I listened to your book
fully on a ride from This is Wild, because I
was so annoyed with a friend of mine that I
just was driving. I had thirteen hour drive. I'm like,
I'm going to find a friendship podcast. So I hear
you on I think Friendship Forward? Is it Danielle Byer
Jackson's podcast, which is excellent? And I hear an episode

(26:13):
with you, and I'm like, oh, I like this bitch,
And then I like, go, does she have a book? Yes?
She does. So I listened to it on the thirteen
hour drive, and by the time I got home, I
was like, oh, I kind of know so much more
about friendship. I know how to not handle this friend
I was annoyed with what not to say and really
just let her be her and not look for every

(26:36):
single thing in her that I thought she should have
putting in my direction, recognizing limits, like people have different limits,
which is why how important do you think it is
to have friends who are in your circumstances? Like, meaning,
should I have friends who are around my age retired,

(26:57):
so they have more free time in the helping pro
fashions like whatever it is, divorced or without a partner
and don't want one without kids, without grandkids. How important
would it be to find people or recognize people in
your same life situations.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't thought of that
because I've been so focused on how desire works in
a friendship, and it's about what do we talk about? Yeah,
if you know, I have friends that are much younger
than me, and what I learned is I think that
we're better daytime friends nighttime. I prefer to be with

(27:36):
older people the money eat dinner at like five, right,
Like I'm not trying to eat dinner at nine, and then.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Listen, I know, I get it, I get it.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
No, I don't want to whip out an alka seltzer
after a hangout. Yes, but that's more lifestyle preference. Let
me think how important. It's not like I'd seek out
people that were my circumstance, but I naturally finds more
commonality and more might be more rewarding hanging out with

(28:06):
people who who mirror sorts of certain parts of my
identity that are important to.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
Me, okay, yeah, that makes sense. It's just I it's
interesting because when you have a lot of friends who
are younger, which most of mine are, they have less
free time and less they're sort of still in the
career thing and in the your marriage thing or the
kids thing, and you're like, oh, are they gonna even

(28:32):
get what I'm talking about? You know, So it's almost
like you want somebody to fact check things with sometimes,
like oh, okay, you you understand how it is to
have a lot of free time and not as much
to do as you'd like. It's like, no, I don't
get that, Like how could they get it? So maybe
it's just if those develop naturally, they just develop, and

(28:54):
it's just it's like a hard thing to seek out.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Well, you know, that's part of the modern friendship challenge
is that we do have we're able to be friends
with more types of people, but the trade off is
that we might be in different life stages. Right, that's
the trade off of modern friendship. We don't have to

(29:17):
only hang out with people our age, but then the
trade off is you might have more churn because you're
in different parts of your life and experiencing different challenges.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
Right, like, I love someone who can either say, oh
my god, I went through that too, or at least
have the emotional bandwidth to be like, I've never gone
through that, but I understand that might be tough, which
is why you know this thirty two year old friend
of mine, Bobby, just like he has enough emotional bandwidth
and works on himself enough with therapy and things that

(29:50):
it's like, oh, I get that that must be hard
when such and such happens, even though I've never been
through it. Almost we just want to be as corny
as it is, just seen and heard and validated somehow.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
You know, it'll be interesting when he goes through different
stages if your friendship is able to weather those changes too. Like,
that's really the the the modern friendship, like, the ultimate
modern friendship challenge is how do we surf these waves together? Right?
Because they are going to change, like we that is

(30:25):
certain of we will change. You know, studies show we
lose half our friends every seven years. Wow, and that's
a staggering figure. But it's also you know, we change.
The kinds of people we want to be around is
going to change as we go through different phases of life.
You know, now I'm aging into people where my my

(30:46):
friend's kids are teenagers and getting older. So to have
a friend with a baby is like I've already I
don't want to deal with something. Yeah, now like I
like the independent kids that I already know that and
being like an anti to them, and so my own
preference has shifted too. Of right, Oh, I don't want
to go that's not as appealing to me or as
compelling to me. But depends on who the friend is

(31:08):
and true what we're what we're are. Friendship's about.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
So if people lose half their friends every seven years,
I up until recently was like, well, I must be
a failure because all my friends are from the last
or ninety percent of my friends are from the last
five to seven years. So there's something wrong with me
because I don't have the thirty five year friend. No,
because I and then you see a lot of tiktoks

(31:35):
that I love the TikTok of like if your friends
don't grow at the same rate you do or in
a similar path like they, you're not meant to be
friends anymore. So there's more permission around it. But I
always felt like, oh, there's something wrong with me that
I don't have because look at every movie, every TV show,
the childhood Besties and how that goes, and it just

(31:59):
was like, whoa, there's something that I'm doing wrong.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
No, No, I literally want to like slam my fist
on the people, very nice sable of No, there's nothing
wrong with you. It's our culture of we move around more,
we move around more, and our identities are so much
more dynamic than they were. You know however many generations ago.

(32:25):
The things that you've done, the places you've been, the
kinds of people that could understand and relate to it
and respect it, Like I think, there's just that's something
a lot of people are experiencing. Is you know, if
you stayed in your hometown and just had the same
job for fifty years and were part of the same
church for fifty years, you probably could have the same friendships,

(32:48):
But would they be as dynamic? Would they be as
compelling to you? Would you want that?

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Right?

Speaker 2 (32:53):
You probably wouldn't. You probably want to find the people
that are like shaking things up and you know, are
obsessed with the same things you're obsessed with. So I
see you your past as as as a total triumph.
I mean it shows just how flexible you are, and
that you're meeting all different kinds of people, and these

(33:15):
relationships were not available to women in our age bracket,
not that long ago. This is historically new. You're a pioneer.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
Well, it's true, because again, like I have a fantasy
that my mom's friendships were so great, and maybe they were,
but I don't know. Maybe they were very surface level.
Maybe there was deep love there, but oh gosh, I
don't know. I don't have much to talk to her about,
you know, these.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Older friendships, Like my grandma had her best friend from
first grade, and I always felt like sad I didn't
have it. But I also think there's a burden of
having someone so long where you feel like you have
to keep it up because it's been so long.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
You're right, because I actually had a friend breakup I
talked about in the On the Other Friendship episode. We
knew each other for thirty five years and I ended
it when my mom got sick because of a small spat.
But clearly, looking back on it, it's like I was
such a caretaker the whole time, and it wasn't her fault,
it wasn't my fault. I was too helpful. I was

(34:18):
too advicey, I was too running to your rescue all
the time. And her part in it was that she
didn't say I'd rather that dynamic didn't continue, So we
were both at fault. But I was like, Wow, that's
weird to end a thirty five year thing and not
have feel some type of way about it.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
You know, I think that's so relatable because we aren't
taught these skills. We aren't taught I mean, there's such
an importance on friendship, but there's no education around what
does that look like? What does that look like?

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Right?

Speaker 2 (34:54):
And friendships taking a step back isn't a failure, it's it.
It's really just part of modern life of what is
our friendship about? And is it compelling? And you know,
if your friendship was about emotional support, but the emotional support
wasn't healthy.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
Yes, you didn't.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Have the knowledge to pivot or to say, well, you're
really important to me, I want to spend more time together.
Like what can I do to help you with your
life today? Like what can we do to reset? What
can we do to renegotiate this? Right? It sounds like
you didn't even know those were options available. There was
no language.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
And that's what's funny, is all this self forgiveness for
not knowing those things, because even five years ago, I
didn't know that's how you talk, do you know what?
Like even now, I'm like I always say, I talk
to my straight guy friends a lot more abruply than
my female and gay friends because of just like, hey
fucking straighty, why didn't get a call back? It's like

(35:52):
I am still learning, like how you say things, and
so you can't be mad at yourself for the knowledge
it didn't have. But I'm always sort of like I
was that terrible. You just have to forgive it.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
This is why I'm such an evangelist about friendship is
because you know, I start off my book with this,
the story about how I lost my dad to COVID,
and right before he died, six months before, he told
me that he was missing a childhood friend that they'd

(36:27):
fallen out of touch with, right and I wanted to
help my dad, just like you, I'm like, let me
solve it. I want to solve it. I'm a journalist,
let me solve this for you. And you know, I'm like, Dad,
here's his info, go write of an email, reach out
and my dad was so just crushed by anxiety, like
he was so afraid of what he didn't know what

(36:47):
the response would be, that he just didn't He talked
himself out of it. He didn't do it. And two
days after my dad died, I reached out to his friends,
and what I learned from and the news that my
dad had passed to him, it was it. These friendships
define us. And I know my dad did not have

(37:10):
many regrets, but the fact that there was this distance
from someone he cared so deeply about really bothered him.
And while my initial goal was to heal my dad,
what I ended up doing was healing his friend Wow.
And you know, his friends said like can I call you? Like?
Can I talk to you sometimes? Like you can call

(37:31):
me anytime. And we marveled that he knew my dad
the first half of his life, and I knew my
dad the second half, but together we kind of had
the complete more of a complete love for him.

Speaker 3 (37:42):
Oh I love that.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
So this is why I'm an evangelist about friendship, because
it is so deep, and the stories we tell ourselves
can really and interrupt the connection we're seeking. We can
we're craving connection with these people and if we can
under stand it a little bit better and understand how
people make decisions, now we can operate with more information.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
Right, yeah, because we didn't have that information.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
No, this is some really new This is a really
new field of study compared to like romance, and you
know there's so many books about how to negotiate romantic relationships.
But this is a new, a newer field friendship. And
the research I did, I feel like it needs to
be shared and shouted from rooftops of this is what

(38:35):
modern friendship looks like. It does not look like TV
where you have monogamous friendships for twenty plus years, no friction,
Everyone stays in the same place and like even the
same apartments. It's like, that's not how people work.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
I know. It's like I have the Golden Girls fantasy. Yes,
I have the Will and Grace fantasy, and like, it's
never quite that. But then if I really step back
and look at what I do have now, I'm like,
well it took me seven years, but I kind of
have like all those elements. They just don't look like
a TV show.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
It doesn't look and TV shows are great when you
need an arc, yes, but friendships aren't like that. There's
no like, there's you know, they are more fragile. But
I also want people to know that they're more knowable
than it might seem it is knowable of Well, how
do people work? Why do they pull people close? Where

(39:29):
do I fit in with these reasons that they're looking
forward to make friends? What am I bringing to the table?
And then you can start increasing your chances? Like, if
our friendship is about emotional support, maybe I should learn
a little bit about how to give emotional support. Maybe
I should learn that giving advice and saying you should

(39:49):
do that, you should see my doctor, you should see that,
you should go there. Like that's dominating our friends. They're
not gonna like it. Yeah, So if this is what
our friendship's about, let me learn a little bit about this,
I can be a better friend to them. Let me
know where to like play the note to make the
music play?

Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yes, and I want to Yes. I've recently just learned
that you're supposed to ask which it works? You know?
Do you just want to vent or do you want
any advice? Yeah, because honestly, most people just want to
be heard, you know. And if I want advice, I'll
ask us say, what do you think I should do?
Like people will ask. But see, that's the book is

(40:30):
modern friendship. Look at isn't this great? How I like
have my announcer voice on now. No, but the book.
That's why the book is like a lifesaver modern friendship.
It's the Bible. Get it. It's available everywhere. It's so
fucking good. It saved more than one of my friendships.
And they that person. Those people don't even know it
did because I'm stealthy. I just shifted my behavior because
of your damn book. So there we go. And so

(40:53):
what we're going to do is we take letters and
calls on the podcast. So Anna, I have letters that
Nick and I have answer about friendships, and I want
to see if we were on the money or totally
off the mark. So I'm going to read those two
if your game and see what your take is. Let's
do it, Okay, I hope you're smarter the neck because
most people are. Dear Lisa, my friend for the past

(41:14):
twenty years was my college roommate, but for the last
few times I hung out with her, I realized we
don't have much in common anymore. I have many friends
now that I would call before her if I needed something,
Do I need to replace her and name a successor?
Or can I just not have a best friend? Thanks
Maria in Savannah.

Speaker 4 (41:35):
Wait, her options are yeah, so she either can replace her,
take applicants and like deem someone worthy of this honor.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
That is like a really interesting way to look at it.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
What I'm hearing is that her friendship with this friend
went from an active friendship where they had a lot
in common. Yes, it's more of a nostalgic friendship where
they don't really have a reason to be in touch.
So it's more like the natural churn of these types
of friendships where what was there about as a roommates

(42:12):
probably going out meeting people. Yep, and you grew out
of it. It's okay.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
I think that's the problem. We don't feel we have
permission to be like, oh, we're different, it's fine.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
You know.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Social media really scrambles our brain because you see a
flattened list of everyone you've ever met from all different
parts of your life. And the reason social media feels
lonely is because you're looking through these people, but the
only share common history with you, not with each other. Right,
So it feels like you're going into different rooms and

(42:45):
closing the doors and closing the door, but you're not
with no one's traveling with you through these doors, right,
And social media is not reflective of your actual social circle.
You're getting way too much information about too many far
flung contacts that you don't really need to know your
fourth grade best friend, Yeah, third daughter just got a

(43:07):
gymnastics title. It's like, you don't need to know that. Okay, Yeah,
social media is convinced you that you need to know this,
but you don't. So long story short, is the way
that your social life should look like. You should have,
you know, three to five close friends. That's what studies say,
Oh okay, three to five close friends. And what feels
even better is if they consider you their best friend.

(43:28):
Three to five people point at you and say, that's
my girl, she's my best friend. That's the best place
to be in. So it's not just that you pick
best friends, it's that you befriend with people you admire
so that they would pick you as their best friend.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Yes, like I always say, I said last time, I
have three people who would say they like me best,
But I don't like them best. I like them best
as a threesome as a three so that sounds sexy,
but like I like them all, not one of them
is the best friend. So I think the problem here
is title that we think we have to have a

(44:05):
language around this thing. It could just be like, oh,
she's a nostalgic friend and that's cool. We don't need
to have a replacement best friend. Just make other if
you've made of their friends, and that's fine.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah, It's like it's you know, it is sort of
like planting seeds of like let me see what you
can grow, let me see what what feels right for
me right now, let's what I'm interested in right now,
and then find people who are interested in that thing
and then see where it goes. Right.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
Okay, Maria, you have your marching orders. Figure it out.
This one certainly had us in an opera, So this
is one of my hot buttons. Dear Lisa, I have
a few friends who say their husband is their best friend,
which I find insane. Same girl, because I don't even
want to look at my husband. Sometimes I feel like
I must be doing something wrong or are they just freaks?

(44:50):
Thanks Michelle Washington, DC. Now, I personally the way I
look at this is.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
It seems like it's.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
Fine to say your husband's your best friend or your
wife's your best friend, but not your only friend, because
I find that odd. I find that like looking for
one person for everything, feels wrong. But then here I
am spouting off about best friends. So I'm kind of
applying the same logic to that. So first of all,

(45:31):
what do you feel about people who say their spouse
is their best friend?

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Well, I have a few thoughts on it. Research shows
that men usually identify their significant other as their best friend.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
Yes, that's what we said, because men are stupid.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Okay, go ahead, like how women? I mean, women are awesome.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
Yes that's true.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
I'm gonna roll with her. Yeah, But for women, it's
usually a significant other and a best friend. Women usually
have two in their most intimate tear.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
That is absolutely true.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
So it is that that alone requires negotiation of you know, women,
they're in let me start over. Studies also show that
in midlife, women tend to want more interdependence with their friends.
They want to be a part of their friends' lives.
They want a care and nurture. Men tend to want

(46:22):
more independence from their friends because they don't want to
be criticized or judged. Wow, because men are assholes to
each other. So just with that, that's what you're dealing
with when you're best friends. A guy is he's probably
retreating from his other guy friendships, but women tend to
still want to maintain their other friendships with other women

(46:44):
generally speaking, really speaking, I think that it could be
more helpful to understand the roles we talked about. Tim
rat Sorry, Tom Rath wrote a book called Vital Roles,
and he helped me see that. Well, my husband's my companion.
I go out for dinner with him, we share bills.

(47:05):
But my best friends play different roles for me. You know,
I have a best friend who's a mind opener. She
always tells me new bands or like new movies I
should watch.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Leaves that role for me. And it's not that my
husband's more or less. It's like it's part of the
tapestry of our lives. And I think, if you're too
narrow about it, if my best friend's one person, it
really really should have like a web of friends that
play different You play different roles for two sure, So
my book can help you understand those roles better and

(47:38):
help understand where people in your life fit in. But
I don't think it's accurate for women to say that
their husband's their best friend. I would kind of want
to sit down with her, give her a glass of wine.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
Yeah, yeah, I do think women need more than that.
Be just like a you write a web of people
like because every good relationship I can think of that
I know of, or that they present as good. I
see them both having other friends. You know, that sort
of us on a lifeboat thing is weird to me

(48:15):
in this day and age.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
It is weird.

Speaker 3 (48:17):
I get it for like years ago, Like, okay, I get.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
The appeal of like, I don't want to have to
rely on other people. People are unpredictable, people can betray you.
People can you know, when you've had trauma. I can
see how it would be a relief to be like
I don't want to have to care about other people, right,
But that's not how we're built. Humans aren't built to
be marooned alone.

Speaker 5 (48:40):
Like.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
We need other people, and you know the chemicals that
are released when you help other people. It feels so
good to be needed. I mean, we have to figure
out the boundaries around that, of course, But we're designed
to help other people, and that that's just a gift
you give to the to the universe of you have
some any talents, and you're deeply caring of good integrity,

(49:03):
Like don't you want to share that with other people?

Speaker 3 (49:06):
Correct? And I think what's funny too, is whenever I'm
looking at my friends and their husbands, I don't want
to be thinking, Wow, I can't wait till he dies
so that we can just be best friends, you know
what I mean? And again, most of my friend's husbands
are really cool, or else they wouldn't have picked them. Like,
they're deep, they're spiritual, they really are just gentlemen. No one,

(49:29):
none of my friends is with a douchebag, because then
it actually fades out For me. I always a'm like, yeah,
he is an act of alcoholic that's not right for me,
and you picked him, so you gotta go. Yeah, but
I shouldn't want all my friend's husbands to die, so
we're going to work on that privately. Okay, here's another
one highly suggests here seventeen oh seventeen's hard from Portland.

(49:54):
I know you probably roast me for being dramatic, but
I'm stressed every show I watch yeah, has that one
amazing best room duo? And I have acquaintances people I
sit with at lunch. Everyone's like, oh, your best friend
should feel like family, and I'm out here like, okay,
what if I'm the side character in everyone else's story.

(50:15):
I try to put myself out there, but people are
either flaky, weirdly intense, or just kind of meh meh?
Is it okay to feel like I've missed out on
the magical relationship front? Is it normal to feel like
I missed the magical friendship boat? Or do I have
to wait until college and hope someone shows up who
gets my weirdness? And the first thing I was like,
a poor thing. You're seventeen. I mean, honestly same, I

(50:39):
felt this way. Oh I'm the second one in command
to everybody, but I'm never anybody's first, but I feel
with this one. There's time you think, well, the.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
Great news is is that your best friendships are ahead
of you. I mean, certainly, you know seven, It sounds
like this person's doing everything right. That's what you do
at seventeen is you try a bunch of different friend groups.
You see who are your people? You get it wrong,
You pick the wrong people and you get your heart broken.
Like yep, that is the goal. It's not to be

(51:12):
locked in, it's to try different things. I don't think,
you know, it's a shame that TV has propagated this.
Yes of you know, the soul meet the like one
twin flame or whatever.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
Oh I got literally twin flame, like literally yeah, because
every movie you see with the uh there was that
one where it was a great movie and it was
about where the two girls had to drive to get
Plan B the pill and there was like the two
girls in I think it was that movie eighteen, I
can't remember, but it's always like two weird besties. Yeah,

(51:48):
maybe you're weird bestie. You find them at fifty.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
And also sometimes friends are good enough. Sometimes you try
the weird friend and then you realize you don't have
the same values and then it crashes and burns and
it's like, well, I valued them for these reasons. We
like the same bands, we like the same this, but
we actually don't have that much in common with our values.
So this person is right where they should be. I

(52:13):
do not think they should beat themselves up. I think
if they want to understand friendships more, they're welcome to
read my book and as a preview, here's how people
make decisions with their time. And maybe a better goal
is who can I help with things that I care about?
Like I really care about oh, you know being in plays? Well,

(52:34):
who else is doing plays? How can I pitch? And
it helps? And then that can grow. You have to
put yourself in a position to grow, you know. Another
thing is our personalities really impact to a befriend Researchers
call this trait agreeableness, and agreeable means that you think
people are generally trustworthy. You're more likely to befriend people.

(52:58):
You know, big birds agree. If you're Oscar the Grouch,
She's like, well, I don't know if people are out
to get me. I better like watch my bag. Like,
if you're more guarded, it might be harder to stick
around long enough to meet to let friendships grow, right,
So I guess i'd want to know about their personality,
like if you're open help people with things they care about.

(53:20):
That's the short the shorthand.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
That's a great point because if you're joining into help
at planned parenthood, you probably have values that line up
and maybe something will spark with one of the other
people who is volunteering. Also, you know, it makes a
lot of sense. If you're volunteering in a soup kitchen,
you probably have at least something in common. Yeah, you know.

(53:43):
And I think my problem and might be hers too,
is like everyone has to agree on everything and they're
all going to be We're all going to be a crew.
It's gonna be like Cheers, Like Cheers. Wasn't like Cheers.
Stop with the TV and film shit. That's the problem.
We're not side characters. We just have to figure out,

(54:03):
what you know, how to be a side character with
some and a main character with others and then not
a character at all in some things.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
Well said, There's one last question I have for you
that Nick and I discussed. How about this, Dear Lisa,
my best friend doesn't consider me her best friend. Oh
she picked someone else to be her maid of honor
even though she was mine at my wedding? Do you
think this matters? Do we both have to be each
other's number one? Emily in Vancouver is confused. What do

(54:38):
you think again, this artificial constructive best friend? What do
you think especially around a wedding? That's do you find
with the wedding stuff is just so highly charged adds
this other layer.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
It totally adds this layer. It's very public, and it
feels like a statement about your worthiness as a friend.
It's like a public assessment of right. You know, I
would encourage not knowing anything about this friendship, not knowing
anything about this friend if she explained to you, like

(55:10):
I wish I could pick you as my bridesmaid, but
you know, I have to pick my sister in law,
or like, you know, I've been really deepening my friendship
with this woman, and I see another role for you,
Like what if you were to do this? Like, I
don't know how she framed it. It's not surprising, like
things like that happen in weddings.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
Do you think something like that is enough to tear
a friendship just apart? Oh, I picked you, you are
not picking me.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
I could. It doesn't have to be that way, but
I could understand it happening because I think there's a
grieving there of this friendship isn't what I thought it was. Oh,
and so she's probably reeling from that of I thought,
you know, I was. I mean, I've had that happen
of someone I thought I was a best a best
friend didn't invite me to be a bridesmaid. I don't

(56:01):
know why. Maybe she thought, oh Anna's really poor, she
can't afford to fly out, and she, you know, I
was living at home with my parents at the time.
Maybe it was she thought it was a kindness that
she wasn't, you know, signing me up for endless trips
and dresses like I don't know. She didn't explain to
me why I wasn't picked, And it did have a
cooling effect on the friendship if I didn't feel like

(56:22):
I wanted to invest as much because she didn't invite
me right in her wedding like that, and I just it,
really I lost confidence in the friendship. So I understand
it sure now, knowing what I know about friendship and
feeling like I'm more emotionally mature, I realized weddings have

(56:43):
so many layers of like obligation. Sometimes it's not always
a meaningful statement, it's just how the cookie crumbles. For instance,
I got married at thirty nine, which as old as fuck.
I had like crows feet.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
My second one was at fifty, so I get a girl.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
Yeah, I was thirty nine, and I didn't invite any
of my friends from childhood. It wasn't practical. It's like, well,
you're gonna fly, don't fly in, don't worry about I'm
thirty nine, right. They probably could have interpreted that as
me making a statement about but really our friendships were
more nostalgic at that point than active. And actually one
of my best best friends didn't even attend to my

(57:27):
wedding reception. She had work. And I could have interpreted
that as, Wow, I'm not mean enough to you, you're
gonna work on my wedding. And here's what I did.
I said, I totally get it, I love you. We'll
celebrate on our own, and she sent me champagne some glasses,
and she gave me a really nice gift, and because

(57:48):
I was so understanding, she wanted to continue being my
friends into the future. We're still best friends.

Speaker 3 (57:53):
So I think it comes down to a lot of it.
Is that not taking it personally, yes, because and also
the honest conversation too, of like we got invited. My
sister's best friend's kid is getting married in a very
remote town that it would cost her family probably six
thousand dollars to get to. And my sister's not poor,
but she's like that's a lot, and it's a long journey,

(58:17):
and she thought about it and thought about it, and
just they had an honest discussion. She said, you know
how much I love you. You know how much I
want to celebrate your kid, but that's too much money
for us right now. And like the lady didn't take
it personally, and it's great when you can have that talk.
I think a lot of this comes down to communicating,
which everything does, acceptance of where they are, accepting where

(58:41):
you are, and not taking it personally. Because every I
have a notebook on it that says a notebook of
imagined slights, because everything someone does is a slight to me,
you know, And that's usually no one's really thinking about
you in the right way. Like they're not going, oh,
I'm going to fuck her over, I'm not sure enough

(59:02):
for that wedding. I'm working instead. No, she's thinking I
got to earn a living.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
Yeah, And that's people would want to be friends with
someone who's more flexible, thinking right, someone who gives them
the benefit of the doubt and who doesn't, you know,
take issue. I learned I want to be the kind
of friend that people want to keep around. So how
do I modify my behavior and my making so that

(59:28):
these friendships can continue. But I've been on both sides
of it, and I've been very hurt by it, and
I've also been very flexible. And I got you, girl,
I get how important your job is to you. I'm
cheering you on. We'll celebrate another time. Like I've been
on both sides of it. So it really depends on
the friendship.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
And I think also a lot of it is us
not wanting them to earn it. Meaning I have a
friend who like I love Ever since the election, I
was like, I'm gonna thrift and I'm going to buy
vintage in secondhand and I'm not control reading to this
fucking economy. And we went thrifting one day and I
fucking loved it because I don't care what I find,

(01:00:08):
Like I'm a smaller size, so I'm like, oh, you know,
this is easy, man, I'll find shitloads of stuff. And
I texted her yesterday about doing something and I go, oh,
we can like run to Goodwill, or we could go
to thrift at the place, or we could shop here there,
and she's like, well, thrifting's not really for me, so
but we could always find a cute town to shop in,

(01:00:28):
and I'm like the old me, which is probably six
months ago, would have been like, I'm not important enough
for you to run into good Will. You have to
earn my you know what I mean. It's like, if
I was really important, you would be among the smelly
clothes in the rack, you know, And it's like, Noah,
she shouldn't. It's proving yourself that gets you in trouble.

(01:00:52):
I've tried to prove myself to people that I'm indispensable
and flexible, and really then it crumbles because I'm not
being real. So I think it's just going eh, maybe
there's the other friend who likes the thrift places, or
maybe it's just it's Oh. I hate that everything is acceptance.
Everything is accepting people how they are, because it's they're

(01:01:15):
not going to be anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
I also like that your friends out of people pleas.
There she didn't just say yes.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
The bitch is never a people please.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
It's like, here's how I really feel, and that's the
kind of love and respect and good boundaries. I want
to see you. But here's when I'm I'm saying no
to this, but I still want to see you.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Yeshing else because such a similar thing happened with the
same person two months ago, when she had mentioned a
very bougie store that I didn't want to go to
in a very bougie town. I'm like allergic to those places. Now.
I used to live in those places. I don't like
being around rich white people exclusively, and I just go, oh, gosh,

(01:01:52):
I don't like those kind of places anymore. Can we
skip that one? And said, sure, I don't care. So
I think it's this whole thing of like going, oh,
I have to keep proving yourself to be authentic.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
And that makes the friendship even stronger because then you
trust that you're not you're telling each other you're honest. Yeah,
and that only enhances a friendship.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Oh my god, Anna, are you kidding me? You're like
the thinking expert. Now, thank you so much for doing this.
This was so generous of you to come in and
to come up to the studio. It's a pain in
the ass. I totally appreciate it. So I think we're
like at least acquaintances at this point. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Yes, feel so lucky to know you.

Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
You're so welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
I love that you're you're sharing my work with other people.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
Of course, it was literally hilarious. I was like, we
don't have guests on this show. Way, Anna's going to
come in because like, I fucking want to know so
much about this subject, you know, so we'll do it again,
it again. Well I have eight thousand more questions, So
thank you so much once again. In the book is
modern friendship? Where can they find that?

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
Oh my gosh, it's anywhere everywhere?

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
And also where can they find you on social media
et cetera.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
You can find me at Anna gold Fire on Instagram.
Very substack friendship explains.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
Oh fuck, how do I not know about this?

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
I have a fun substack. It's just standagoldfar dot substack
dot com. But I was it was recently called wise
but silly, and I'm like that that encapsulates, and you know,
I just really share friendship tidbits and I want I
want people to feel empowered and feel optimistic.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Yes, yes, oh I will read that. And also, you're
a really good writer. Like there's a lot of books
out there, a lot of advice, a lot of kind
of deep dives into these issues. But I'm like, oh,
you're entertaining. You're a good writer. Having been a journalist
years ago, I'm like, oh my god, this is interesting.
It's written so I get enough information, but it's also

(01:03:49):
good narrative A lot of I love story. I love
that you put yourself in there a lot so works
for me. Sign off, get it now, and thank you
seriously so much for coming in. Dude, You're you're a light.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
My pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
So listen. Here's where I play, and try to where
I talk, and try to sound very spontaneous. Thanks for listening.
Oh it's so fucking unsincere or insincere. Also thanks for listening.
Be sure to email. Hey Celia, why don't you do this? Shit? Well,
you're sitting there doing nothing? You know, you're sitting there
playing with you your fucking twat. Get over here, earn

(01:04:26):
your keep? Why don't you read it? And we're leaving
all this in by the way because it's funny. Oh wait,
why aren't you using the golden microphone? That's the powers
that be? Oh dun dun, duh. Okay, so do you
need the script? Shit? How can I criticize you if.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
I don't see?

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
Okay, So this is Celia, our producer, who I imagine
has been doing nothing the whole time, except being on
TikTok watching watch me get Ready videos. I wish, wait,
wait get how is it get ready with me? G
r w at so oh stupid? And she watches people
get dressed. I don't get it. I don't like it.
These kids, this age will never be friends with you.

(01:05:08):
Just kidding. Our values are the same.

Speaker 5 (01:05:10):
Okay, okay, okay, thanks guys for listening.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
You're welcome.

Speaker 5 (01:05:15):
Be sure to email us your questions at shrink this
Show at gmail dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
Wait, how do you spell that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
You don't know?

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
How how do you spell that?

Speaker 5 (01:05:25):
Cell y'all s h r I n k t h
I s s h o W.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
That's two says back to back.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
Oh my god, I'm so confused right out.

Speaker 5 (01:05:37):
So shrink this show at gmail dot com The Dread
and Smart Laugh. Make sure to follow Lisa on all
socials at Lisa Lampanelli Yes, and make sure to continue
to listen to Shrink This on your iHeartRadio app or
wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Tun Up. We have just elevated ourselves from bitchy coworkers
to besties. Thanks again for listening to Shrink This with
Alisa Lamanelli.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Bye,