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August 7, 2025 48 mins

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Today, we are joined by journalist, true crime author, and host of Headline Crime, Susan Hendricks, to discuss the new Delphi Murders docuseries, what it was like to be in the courtroom for Kohberger's sentencing, and more!

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Mother Knows Dad, starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria QK.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Everyone, welcome to Mother Knows That. Today. We have a
very special guest for you, our new friend, Susan Hendrix.
We met Susan at one of our events on a
recent trip to Atlanta, and we instantly bonded with her
because of course she's from New Jersey. She's a journalist,
author of the book Down the Hill, and hosts of
a show Headline Crime on YouTube. Susan anchored Weekend Express

(00:42):
on HLN for years and has earned widespread recognition for
her coverage of the Delphi double murder case and her
coverage of the Gabby Petito story. Throughout her career, she's
been a regular news contributor on networks including CNN, NBC,
and ABC, and she will be a speaker at next
month's Crime com with the families of the Delphi murder
victims and investigators from the case.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Susan, Welcome to the show.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Hi, it's so good to see you both. I'm so
glad Cheryl introduced us.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
I know I am too. It's a really good timing
that we're having you on today. Because Hulu released the
documentary called Capturing their Killer the Girls on high Bridge,
And obviously you are the expert on the Delphi case,
so tell us a little bit about what's going on
with that. Have you seen the documentary yet?

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, I watched yesterday and there's a few friends of
mine that I met there outside of court. And this
trial was I think about thirty days. It was a
long trial, and because there were no cameras in the courtroom,
there were people who obviously wanted to get in. There
were long lines. So I got to know of Tom Webster.
It is one of the He is a YouTube channel

(01:51):
and he was heavily in this documentary. Now, I got
worried that this documentary was being made and was asked
to be in it, and I said no, only because
I thought it would shift. I knew it would be
kind of I wasn't sure how they were going to
portray the family member, so to be safe, I just

(02:11):
wasn't in it. But I will say in watching episode one,
I think they did a great job of talking about
who Abby was, who Libby was, interviewing Becky Mike, Libby's mom,
Abby's mom. I thought that was very well done in
terms of getting to know them. I guess I thought
it'd be more heavily. I don't know. There was so

(02:32):
much vitriol. And this isn't about your opinion of the case.
He was found guilty. I believe the jurors made the
right decision, but there was so much anger and vitriol,
and what fueled that fire was no cameras in the courtroom.
So I understand why people felt the way they felt.
But I was in there and I believe he is guilty.
But the documentary, I thought, did a great job. I

(02:54):
saw pictures of Abby I hadn't seen before and Libby.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Are they trying what's the Is that what they told
you before when they asked you to be in it
like that it was being geared a certain kind of way,
Like are they trying to put doubt in people's mind
that he was really the killing?

Speaker 1 (03:10):
And I think, knowing what I know for so many
years in broadcast media, that they want to hook you.
You see it in Dateline, right, so you see it
in all the different shows during this and I think,
and it was just my personal preference not to be
involved in it. The crime scene photos were leaked, There

(03:33):
was so much done. The Odenism theory I thought created
so much damage, and in my opinion, it broke the
gag order. So I just had a certain feeling about it.
But so there's obviously more than one kind of episode
in this docuseriies and the one thing we hadn't heard

(03:53):
from or hadn't heard of, maybe even haven't seen her.
I saw her in court every day, Richard Allen's wife,
and I felt for her. They were a high school sweetheart.
She showed her prom picture. You saw Richard Allen with
his daughter in the hospital when she was born, and
you just think. I was thinking while watching what happened,
what happened to this? And what makes someone do that?

(04:16):
Because I believe he is guilty. So I felt for her.
She was new in this The attorney's defense attorneys Rosie
Baldwin and Lesa said that he didn't get a fair trial,
that they weren't allowed to bring in the third party defense,
And now I'm seeing kind of it's kind of par

(04:37):
for the course in terms of what attorneys are hired
to do and what they do do. They have hearings
before a trial, and you're able to present your case
a third party kind of saying, look, it's not my client,
because here's why. But and Judge Gould did rule saying
you can bring in third party, but you have to

(04:58):
have proof. You can't just pick out a name with
nothing linking that person to the crime scene. And I
don't think, in fact, I know they didn't have that,
so they weren't allowed in to bring the third party
defense in. And so they talked about that in the
documentary and just how terrible Richard Allen was treated in

(05:18):
the prison that he was in, which I think he
should have been into jail like every other prisoner who's
innocent to proven guilty. But I don't believe that made
him confess more than sixty times. I don't believe that
played into his confessions.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
I think it's really interesting you brought up the point
about pictures with him and his daughter, and I had
seen in the press that they were talking about how
he was his family man, how could he possibly do this.
But I think we saw something similar with the Golden
State killer. I mean, he was living with his daughter
at the time he was arrested, and he did all
those horrific things, saw all those women, And to think
that this guy is a father just living in a

(05:55):
house acting like a normal man.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
It's very disturbing.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
And I think that is the true at least for me,
fascination if that's the right word of how and why,
and it could be anyone. People who are monsters don't
look like that. We also saw it with BTK, and
I've interviewed Kerrie Rosson at Crime Conage. She said, Susan,
he would make me scrambled eggs and tell me don't

(06:18):
forget to fill up your tires with hair like a dad,
and then look what he was doing. So they can
part menalize sociopaths and psychopaths can compartmentalize and fool the
people around them. They're good at it.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
I was shocked when I saw the Rex Huberman, the
recent one about him and his family was being interviewed,
and then I saw that there was this YouTube video
that was old footage that someone just so happened to
be recording him for his architect stuff. Yes, I saw
that and seeing him talk, I'm just like, oh my god,
this dad is. This guy's like a dad and he's

(06:55):
kind of like.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
Dorky, cracking corny jokes, right.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, I just can't imagine him being some sexual deviant
pervert murderer. You know, it was just very weird to
put two and two together like that.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
I know, and unless you put on kind of glasses
in life of believing everyone's capable of doing that, which
who wants to live like that? But I do know
that you never know. And I truly believe that Kathy
Allen believes Richard Allen is guilty. I do not guilty,
Sorry about that, not guilty. I believe that she believes that,

(07:30):
and maybe she has to believe that for survival. Imagine
knowing a guy for so long, since you're sixteen, and
then he's arrested for this. But keep in mind, for
those not that familiar with the Delphi double murder, it
happened in February twenty seventeen, and Abby and Libby were
off on a makeup snow day on a Monday. And

(07:51):
the town is so small, and when I was there,
it's such a different perspective. Meant to just say, oh,
a small town. I grew up in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
I know, it's forty five minutes from New York City.
I thought it was small because everyone knew their neighbors
when I was growing up on that block. But that's
not small clearly, and Delphi, Indiana is really that quaint
small town where everyone knew everyone. And so I'd say

(08:15):
about fifteen hundred men in living in Delphi at the time,
and who's off on a Monday and who's alibi is
the bridge the same time that the girls were down there,
much less the confessions. So but just to kind of
and there's been questions to me. I know that while
I was covering this and down there. Several times when

(08:36):
I was working with CNN the my father would even say,
how can they not catch this guy? Because Libby hit record.
One of the girls fourteen years old, Libby German hit
record on her phone and got the guy's voice saying,
guys down.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
The hill, so smart.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
This blurry figure behind Abby and he has a kind
of a blue jacket on a jeans and people are
but a blurry face. It's because it's far away, pixelated. Well,
the question was how do they not know who that is?
You would know your dad or your husband or your
friend the way they walk. It's because everyone in that
town looks similar. That's the truth. They just do. And

(09:10):
so the sketches were different during the investigation this was
bigger than anyone could have ever imagined. I interviewed sheriff
toab Lesbie, he was sheriff at the time, and he
just said, Susan, nothing like this happened here was like Mayberry,
Really you hear the cliche all the time? No one
locked their doors. No one locked their doors. So were
they in over their head in the beginning. Absolutely, with

(09:32):
all the tips coming in and all of that. But
I do believe they have the right person. And it's
still going on the argument of Richard Allen and that
you know, there's a lot of hate and platforms out
there and opinions.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
What's their reasoning to think that he's innocent? Like, what
are some of the are there? Is there anyone like
legit that thinks he's innocent or it's just it's just
like people.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
I mean not, I don't think my algorithm is that.
I don't, but I know there's forms on Facebook and
different forms of that and read it so you can
find it if you look. I because there were no
cameras again, and maybe the defense did a good job
of kind of putting that out there of who it

(10:20):
could possibly be, because there was nothing none of his
DNA was at the scene. So there's that and people,
now you've heard it before, that they want the CSI.
Everyone thinks like, oh, if there's no DNA, then it
can't be him. Well it can. And he looked like
the sketch, the first sketch, which there's a lot of

(10:41):
talk of the second sketch and then back to the
first sketch. But it all had to do. I believe
that he saw what Gibby took on her phone from
that video was a still shot that was taken from
the video put on the news. That next day, he
calls Sheriff's office and says, I was down there. He
met an officer, Dan Doolan in a grocery store parking lot.

(11:05):
Back and forth, he said, and I think Dan Doolan,
no one again, no one thinks that this person would
be capable of that taking it down more is like
a witness. I was down there from this time to
this time. I didn't really see anybody. Okay, I saw
three girls, he said, but not Ivan Libby. Okay, thank you.
Files that away. Well in that tip some for some reason,
we don't know who did it. It's said cleared, and

(11:28):
it was filed away. Well, Kathy Allen, who I believe,
I'm sorry, Kathy Shank, who I believe is the hero
in all of this. Because years had gone on and nothing,
no one knew who it was. It appeared to some
that he was getting away with this, the person that
did this. So she's a volunteer now, she was retired
and volunteering in Delphi and filing away. They were moving

(11:50):
from one office building to another. She's looking through the files,
finds Richard Allen statement, if you will coming forward and
saying I was here at this particular time. So she said, oh,
it says Richard Alan Whiteman. And Richard Whiteman on Alan
Drive I believe, and his name is Richard Allen, Well Whiteman,

(12:13):
what's the road? And she's from Delphi born and raised
and said, wait a minute, there's no Alan Drive or
this is weird and figured it out that it was.
Whiteman brings it to Sheriff Liggett and says you should
look into this because he said he was there on
that day. Here's a tip, and that was it. That's
what led to him.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
That's incredible because that was five years later, right.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, almost six yep. Well a long time went by,
and because it was almost the perfect storm of the
gag order, which we see now more and more. I
feel like that's happening more, maybe because of all the
media outlets and how it could maybe tainted Jerrypool. So

(12:54):
there was a gag order. No one could really talk
the circumstances of the defense putting out this one hundred
and thirty six page ownism theory saying that the crime
scene looked a certain way, crime scene photos being leaked,
no cameras in the courtroom, no DNA at the scene,

(13:16):
it called it fueled the flames of do you have
the right guy?

Speaker 3 (13:23):
It's scary that so he had he went to the
police and they had him from day one essentially, but
didn't recognize it. Like when the police interviews someone like
that and just put cleared. It's weird that they don't
have to give a full explanation as to why that
person was cleared.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, I've been exactly. That's what kind of boggles the
mind of Wait a minute, Dan Doolan. But I believe
he's a fishing game officer, so everyone was kind of
it was all hands on deck, so everyone's involved, Like, okay,
I'll take tips, and there were volunteers taking tips, and
there was no clear order of how to organize the
tips until later on. I believe that, I truly believe

(14:05):
that Dan Doolan just thought this is a dad who
was down there and didn't see anything. But right, it's
a major mistake. What I don't get, what I wish
would be answered is okay, even if you think that,
and then because only a still shot was released and
then the video was released, wouldn't Dan Doolin think back?
What about that one guy who said he was there

(14:28):
but again not trained for this. Nothing like this had
ever happened in Delfi, Indiana, so it's not like New Jersey.
If it happened there, I mean, the guy would have
been caught within a couple of days. It was. I
think you would think, small town, how many guys could
it be. I think that was a major deterrent in
the investigation because you think, well, that person's not capable

(14:50):
of that, and why why would he do it? And
everyone in that town a lot of people have the
same kind of blue jacket and blue jeans, and for
a while he did get away with it.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
I had said that about the Idaho murders in the past,
because you know, it's like, obviously these people are trained
police officers and everything, but I don't think they're practicing
enough because it's such a small town and these things
aren't happening often, so they just don't have the knowledge
from other experiences to know exactly how to look into
these cases and the unique evidence to look at. And

(15:25):
even thinking back to just a conversation you had with
the potential witness and how that could be a huge
red flag. I think that's really important.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
I thought the same thing. And one thing I did
learn in watching this documentary was that Becky, Libby's grandmother,
they didn't tell the families anything. So I knew that
there was a guy order, and I knew that was
strict and they were living by that, but I didn't
know that it was that strict with the family as well.
They didn't tell the family members how the girls were murdered,

(15:52):
that a sharp object was used. This is how Becky said,
she put two and two together. They said for the funeral,
bring a scarf for Libby and then that it took
a while, but it sunk in. It's like, wait a minute,
you're not And I thought that about Coburger the investigation.

(16:13):
Now that I'm looking back on it, they didn't know
what to do. They were not experienced. I could tell
that with in the early days, and the gag order
was there as well. I heard Kaylee's father say he
didn't know how she died. They really weren't telling them anything.
So it seems to be the playbook, which I think
needs tweaking in terms of what they tell the families.
And I understand shutting off the media, but not completely

(16:37):
because whatever the goal is, I don't think it helps.
I think it hurts and fuels conspiracy theories. And also
I think that kind of canned statement of the communities
not in any danger. How do you know? How do
you know? Yeah? I think they say that to not
create obviously mayhem, but there was a.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
For Idaho. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah. And I even think Delphi like, if someone's capable
of doing this once Superintendent Doug Carter said that to me.
I said, and this is before anyone was arrested. I said,
do you think this will happen again? He said, if
they're capable of that, they're capable of doing it again.
So I understand you don't want to create panic. But
you have to be honest about this could happen. And
I understand even if Coburger was targeted in some way,

(17:27):
and I know that's a broad kind of statement. I've learned.
It's targeted, could be saw them walking by and maybe
like the way one of them looked at It doesn't
necessarily mean like a grudge against one particular person, I'm learning,
But uh, targeted doesn't mean that the whole community is safe.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
No, definitely not. I mean that, you know, at the
beginning of the Idaho trial, I as a lay person,
I'm like, they got this guy, They're gonna have a
really solid case. And then after we watched that press
conference after the sentencing, I was shocked. I was like,
I really don't think they had as much solid evidence
as they saw.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Dan Is there at the presser, and I think you're right,
I do, And I think that's why the plea deal
was taken. Yes, not really consulting, like okay, yes, yes, yes,
and then it's like kind of jarring. And I've said
this before. If I've learned anything in all of the
cases I've covered is that different family members mourn differently,
and they're not all supposed to agree, and here there

(18:23):
were four families. In Delphi, there were two families, actually
six with the surviving roommates, it's getting their inputs going
to be different. And the way you could tell with
Kaylee's father, Steve, the way he was combated if he
wanted to fight this, and he even said during victim
impact statements once they got the news that next day,

(18:44):
said let's go to we got a rally. We got
to fight this. So fight was his way of doing this.
And with Stacy Chapin, who I got to meet, it
was more and I'm generalizing, but mourning of their son
and saying we can never bring him back. We don't
need to be around that monster. So they're different, They're obvious,

(19:04):
clearly different.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
This episode is brought to you by the Gross Room guys.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
This week we did a celebrity death dis section on
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(19:37):
think that they wouldn't be into. Next week I'm not
sure what we're doing yet. We just are always waiting
for breaking news for any celebrities, and we have a
lot of things on the back burner for high profile
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YouTube live. It will be our third one where we

(19:57):
talk about some stories that we don't talk about my
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Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, head over to the Grosserroom dot com now to
sign up. So you were in the room that day
when Brian Koberger was sent how what was it like
being in there? We are so terrified of him personally?
Is he a scary looking in person as we see in?

Speaker 1 (20:22):
He is? But I will say in Delphi, when I
first went to a hearing and saw Richard Allen the
way he was looking, he was would stare. I was
sitting next to Libby's family and he just turned around
and glared at us. That was that I felt that stare? Yeah, Coberger,
it was more straight ahead he looked. He walked in,
he looked at his mom, smile like a half smile,

(20:43):
sat down. I looked to my right. So I'm kind
of three seats before his mom and sister, and I'm
kind of directly in the same line of seats, but
there's a kind of a middle section that's at and
I see Steve Gonzalvez shaking his leg like shaking Shakespeare
and scroll going through his phone, and you could tell
he was nervous that he was reading through what he

(21:03):
was about to say. And I waited all night in line.
I'm not kidding, sixteen hours, so I was delirious. I
was next to Surviving the survivor and Joel, and it
was good to have him and you get to meet
the people in the line. I thought that i'd go
around maybe four am, because that's when the court said
you could line up outside of the courthouse. You can't

(21:24):
camp all night. Well, then I get a call, you
got to go.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
Now.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
The people are lining up at ten thirty at night,
so it was all night. So it was kind of
delirium set in. But I walked in and you're wide
awake when you see the family members and know how
much they wanted to do this and say things to
this guy, but no emotion from him. I did see
when it was Kalle's sister. I saw his jaw clenched

(21:49):
that got to him. Kally's father got to him also
in I've interviewed doctor g He's a body language expert psychologist.
He said to me that he believe Leaves, and I
believe him, and looking at it now that he kind
of he said, I hate saying this, Susan, but he
thrives off of women's pain. So the crying roommate Dylan

(22:11):
likes that the men confronting him doesn't like it doesn't
And it was clear the way he was kind of
and even if it's ever so slightly just kind of
leaning in a bit, and he tilted his head a
bit when Dylan was talking, almost connecting with her when
she was crying. It was sick, but I will say
it was the most We had a ten minute break
right after Kaylee's sister went and Olivia and I just

(22:36):
people clapped. I've never clapped in court, and everyone's clapping,
and then we walk out and I said to Steve,
I'm so sorry, but your family could do a masterclass
on victim impact statements. I mean, that was everything that
he hated she mentioned, and I just thought it was
so well done. And hearing their injuries now like in

(22:56):
the new documents, it came out and Steve said that
they heard that couple's hours before, like how many times
they were stabbed they heard before the victim impact statements
by a couple hours. If I heard that, I don't
know if I would be able to not jump over
and jump on, like attack him. I don't the strength
they have to have to stand there and just look

(23:19):
straight ahead. And Xana's aunt and uncle were there. It
was so touching. Mattie's father saying I've had addiction problems
and Maddie is the one that helped me. That was heartbreaking.
You know if you see it, if you saw it,
it was streamed, but to be there, it was just
and nothing from him, really nothing.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Do you think he was on medication or that's just
really how he is.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
That's what my dad asked me. My parents aren't familiar
with that with the case at all, so they were
watching knowing I was there, and that night my dad said,
he's got to be on something. And from everything I've
heard to legal experts, to people who know what prisoners
have that or not, said, no, I just think that's
he has nothing left. And I think he admitted that

(24:05):
years before with the that he was seeing what is
that called snow or uh that? He yeah, said he
would be around his family members no feelings, and he
put them in caps none. So I just don't think
he has what we have.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
I can't even imagine being there were We watched the
whole thing on the live stream.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
What did you guys think when you saw Calle's sister
go up, Well, she.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Needs to be an attorney.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
She's incredible. Before she started talking, I said to Maria, listen,
like this is first. Obviously with the surviving roommates, that
like shook me. I need oh my god, Like I
was crying. I could I sleep for like two nights
after that. It was terrible.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Coburger's mother cried the most at that real interest.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, I was wondering that actually what their reaction was.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Nothing to Olivia, to Kaye's sister, not much. Maybe anger
not anger, but I can't say that. But nothing. But
with Dylan, the surviving roommate, it was wiping away tears
when she said, and I'm paraphrasing, will if you come back?
Will I survive am my next? And it made me wonder,

(25:20):
maybe I'm just speculating and reading into this. Did they
feel in danger? In that house with Brian Goberger, because
remember one of the sisters, not the sister that was there,
kind of maybe suspected that was it him when they
were looking for the same type of car he had.
You wouldn't think it might be your brother if there
weren't some weird signs. So but yeah, that exactly. I

(25:42):
felt like it was PTSD in trauma. I felt like
we could feel her pain. Did you guys feel the same? Oh?

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
I just never I mean I definitely I never got
on board with all the people that were attacking her
because I was like, clearly she saw something that scared
the shit out of her, and she was scared in
her bedroom with the door. I would have been the
same way. So I never was on board with that,
but just I didn't really think about her. Like what
really got to me was when she said she was

(26:09):
sleeping in bed with her mom and dad for a year.
I know, And I was just like, because I have kids,
and like they haven't been in my bed for a
very long time, and to think about an adult child
sleeping in your bed because they're that scared just broke
my heart for her, just thinking like, how is she
ever going to ever have a normal life, you know,

(26:31):
really like I don't know how you ever get over that.
But unfortunately, I kept saying to Maria, this dude doesn't
care like that. I said, you need to like psychologically
mess with him. And then the Gonzalvez family got up,
and I was like, oh my god, I just I
don't even know who could have done it better. They

(26:54):
took time a lot of time to research and just
like emotionally stab him to death, right like just cut
and cut and cut him. Like it was really I've.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
Never seen anything like it. And I did hear her say,
I think it was Good Morning America interview. Hear say
she stalked the stalker, like she read everything she could
about him. I heard that she consulted with Anne Burgers.
I just think they did it. And I also heard
her say that she was a little hesitant about everything
she was going to say. And then she saw her

(27:28):
dad kind of turn the podium and he said it
said on there, do not move. He turned it but
to see so she walked off. After Olivia went, everyone's
clapping and the hug her dad gave her. I saw
that victory like got him.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, his nostras were flaring like he was, so he
was mad, and I mean, it doesn't make anything better,
but it is nice to know that maybe you could
hurt that like have that person feel a little bit
of pain that that you're feeling, you know.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
I mean when she said basically and Steve said it
to you, you failed. You're not good. You brought us closer
together when she said you were a failure about mentioning
his teaching and also kind of coward the way he
did it, and everything about it was on point. You're right,
You're right about the research. She had to have done

(28:22):
hours and hours to get everything. It was on point.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
She really needs to consider a career in law, because I,
like I always joke I was just joking with Cheryl
about this that I can never be an attorney because
when I get passionate about what I'm talking about, I
tear up and I cry.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Here's the crying attorney. Yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
So I'm like to see somebody that's gone through this
horrific tragedy get up there and really give it to
her sister's killer was an incredible thing to see.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
It really was.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Well. A lot of people were there were obviously because
we're talking about the Internet. There were a lot of
people that thought that it was really staged and dramatic
and attention seeking and things like that. And I'm sitting
there thinking basically like, oh, she's setting herself up to
have a podcast or something like that, which I think

(29:13):
like she should and she should right, right, because like,
how are any of these people ever going to have
a life? This is their identity now, unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
And if you hear I have a sister a year
and a half alter than me. If you hear your sibling,
your mother, you're what have you? Is stabbed so many
times she's unrecognizable, stabbed more than thirty times. I believe
it was thirty four. That's all I would have was anger.
That's not stage, that's human emotion. That fury, fury.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
Do you think that? I mean, obviously the internet coincides
with all of these people thinking that the other side
is wrong and that they're innocent. Like there's a large
population of people actually on line that think that Brian
Coberger is innocent, which I mean at least the Richard
Allen one. I mean, I mean, I guess him admitting

(30:09):
it is the same as having DNA, essentially, right, But
it's just like with Brian Coberger. There's so many things.
Even though they never heard him.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
Say it's not me. I never heard. He didn't even
say not guilty. His lawyer had to say it for him.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
It didn't wasn't it no contest?

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah, it was bizarre. I've never heard the guy. Well.
During that hearing, he said, I respectfully decline on spit.
But besides that, I mean, but I will tell you
it's real because I met three women in the line
behind me and Joel, and one of the women was
so nice. She drove me to my hotel to gotta

(30:48):
get changed and kinda grab something quickly to go back
to the line, and she was very gracious and nice.
And I met a lot of very nice people. So
I'm sitting in court and the one woman next to
me said do you think it? Before it started? Do
you think he's guilty? And I said yeah, yeah. She
goes the two women next to me don't, and I
go what. So I hung out with them all night.

(31:09):
They never mentioned it, but to me, I'm like, what what.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
I wouldn't have got in the car with one of
those people. They're they're they're at.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
These were like women I know I shouldn't act so dramatic,
but they look like us, like, what do you mean?
And I believe they truly believe it. It's not for
attention that out of podcast. They don't want clicks, they
don't want they truly believe he's not guilty.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
We had one person right on one of our videos
we were talking about him. You guys have nothing to
prove that he did this.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
He is completely is it?

Speaker 3 (31:39):
But I'm like, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (31:40):
There was DNA, it's a series.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
And couple things in there, Like one woman said, Susan,
you have to read all the documents. Nothing points to him.
And maybe because we've had CSI on and all of that,
that they think the whole room's going to be in
a glow when they put that light on that I
don't know. And with at least with Coburger, I think
he and I just spoke about this. I was on

(32:01):
Nancy Grace that there was planning so much so because
now that the documents are coming out, we're learning more,
and I think about my college experience, it never shocked
me that the surviving roommates didn't call nine one until later.
When you're in college, you're up all night, you sleep
in It's not like living like a I don't know,
a thirty year old. It's just different to me. So

(32:22):
I believe that. And I lived with three girls in
my college experience in Arizona. We had parties. If we
had parties, there were people in and out. We didn't
lock the door. It was kind of an off campus house,
but it was all campus people living around similar. I
wouldn't know who was at the party when I was there,
Like I couldn't pick out one particular guy. And I
think maybe that remember early on when Kaylee said her

(32:45):
family said that she had a stalker, so everyone thought, well,
maybe she was the target. I think he was watching
that house. I think he targeted the entire house. Maybe
Kaylee and Maddie because they were on that side, but
I think he was behind those bushes. And there are
reports that Beth and that one of the surviving roommates
with Dylan said to the authorities, look, the dog was

(33:05):
acting a little weird. Kaylee's dog would run kind of
in the woods in the back and not come back
for a little while, and that wasn't like him. And
some people believe that he was befriending the dog, meaning
being around in that area because his phone pings in
that area twenty plus times, and that he was think
about it. He could have treats feeding the dog, so
thinking that's an obstacle when I get in that house

(33:26):
and the dog looks like a fluffy, loving dog, but
just being able to do that. I think he stalked
that house, and I think he planned on doing that.
I truly do, so I think I forget my point.
I talk so much. But when I think you're.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
Saying, because people are saying that, they think he's.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
Oh, he's thank you. So I think he could have
been dressed like Dexter underneath I'm sorry, like with everything
to have no DNA. But he messed up. Some people
think he left the knife thing on purpose. I don't
know if I do, but you're right. It was only
that small piece of that tiny bit of blood. And
if you think about how many times they were stabbed
and what the room that Xana was in looked like,

(34:10):
it is shocking that there wasn't more blood. But I
don't know. I think he planned for it. So I
think he changed clothes, maybe in the woods somewhere.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
It is possible actually that he did leave that on
purpose because he did it and he was kind of
proud of it and wanted people to know that he
did it. And if he was if he kind of
has that dead behind the eyes, like nothing to live
for a thing, he might have said, you know what,
I could go to prison and I could just become
famous for this and still do my study. I mean

(34:43):
he will, that's definitely happening. They're going to be people
knocking down his door to do interviews and books and
getting studied. He wants to be on the list of
Ted Bundy and BTK, you know, like and he's there
that he he's succeeded in that sense.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, that was mentioned too during the victim of back
statements like you wanted to be this, you weren't good.
Steve said, they caught you the next day. They're working
with Pennsylvania Police, essentially saying the next day, like you
didn't get away with this end. But I wonder if
he didn't leave that, how long it would have taken
would they have connected the car? I don't know.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
It was really scary.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
Well that I think that's that is what's really scary actually,
because if they didn't find that, I'm sure they would
have been able to connect the car because they they
were checking to see, but not his car, right, I
mean other people had that car. How was he connected?
The only way that he was connected to it was

(35:46):
through the DNA, Yeah, because didn't At some point I
think someone pulled up the you know when when they
said they were looking for this car. Someone at his
university said that there was a car registered there. But
how were they ever going to connect that it was
his actual car? I know, because I.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
Wonder if the dad knew when he was driving him
across country or maybe not. I feel like the family
knew he had problems and tried to help with I
felt like the father in things that he said in
the past, like he would say, my son is a
hard time making friends years before, and uh, but I
don't think your mind. I don't know. It was bizarre.

(36:24):
Every time I see more video of him being pulled over,
and there's just it just doesn't smile at all. It
just is so weird to see.

Speaker 3 (36:33):
Do you Another thing that I haven't heard too many
people talk about is that his sister was like some
like see your D list actress in some slasher film?
Did you know I'd heard that.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
I heard that. I didn't know if it was true.
I just heard that last night. I forget where I
saw it.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yes, and it was about like college girls getting stabbed,
like it is weird, it's really weird, Like that's true,
that's one hundred percent true. I just I read it.
I've heard it a couple of times, but I just
read it on a more legit like like people or
something did what's up with Brian Koberger's family? Like what

(37:13):
are the details of them?

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (37:15):
And I was just like is that? Like why is
no one talking about that? Is it? How's that coincidental?

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Like what's I know? It's just and when did he
get fascinated and why was he majoring in that? Like
how many years before was he planning this? Like is
that why? I don't know? And I wonder if he
will talk. I know that the judge at the end
said like he shouldn't get any attention, and you know,

(37:44):
if you want to study him, it shouldn't be public.
But I feel like he will talk.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Yeah, And as much as we probably shouldn't give him,
you know, any more attention, of course, the media is
going to want to hear what he has to say
if he reaches out to anybody, because everybody's going to
want the exclusive to see his side of the story.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, I wonder what he does say, if he ever
says anything.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
It's hard to say because how are we supposed to
trust that it's the truth and they're not. You know,
there is a lot of criticism from the prosecutor saying
there's nothing sexual about the murder when we.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Know so strange. I was thinking about that. You can't
say that in everything that we have learned, I've learned,
I've learned through Cheryl. I asked Cheryl about Delphi.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
It.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
I always say, we always want to know why. It's
the first thing we always ask who, what, where, when why.
We never really get a why where we say, oh,
that makes sense, unless we hear like a crime of passion, jealousy.
You say oh, but with something like this, there's never
really a correct answer. But I believe it was sexually
motivated in Delphi. We heard he was meeting with doctor

(38:52):
Walla in the prison and he mentioned Richard Allen did
mention something to that effect. But Cheryl said, as only
charlote girl, it always is like so for the prosecutor
to say that it's like what I think, because it
could be and it could show itself in various ways.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
I think he meant to say that they were not
sexually assaulted, but to say the whole murder was not
sexually motivated was just an error on his part, because
I mean, he probably went in his car and like, well,
they saw the porn he was watching on his phone.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
And then I've heard, and I know this sounds weird,
but Joseph Scott Morgan said it on a panel I
was on, that that could be the sexual Yeah, with
the knife, like that could be something sexual to them exactly,
And I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
I think Matt Murphy explains it really well in his book,
The Book of Murder, because I've been seeing him even
doing a lot of press Bell Kolberger too, where he's like,
nearly all these types of killings are sexual. Yeah, So
I think it was just I'm hoping he just misspoke
and meant to say they weren't sexually assaulted, not the
entire case wasn't sexual.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
But because there was a gag order, I would just say,
as you were already saying as little as possible, why
throw that in exactly? Doesn't make anyone feel better. Xana
was stabbed, but I think more than fifty times. I
just I don't know. I felt like that it was

(40:22):
but they got what they wanted, and it was exactly
like that's life, that's the death penalty. You're dying in prison.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
But I don't know, there's there's a whole entire psychology
about overkill people, right, Like, he didn't have to stab
any of them that many times because they all would
have died with probably if he knew what he was
doing one or two stabs. Right, hate that they have, Yeah,
it's it's it's always seen in a crime of passion.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
We'll think about Jody Aias and how many times she
stabbed Travis Alexander.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
I mean it was it was nuts. That was nuts. Yes,
you're right about the overkill.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
I mean, if he didn't know them, if he didn't
know them, like you don't, you just wouldn't do that
to somebody unless there was like something that about.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
It, you know, the fetish component because envy envy.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Ye, he hated them. He couldn't live their lives. He
hated them, That's my opinion. Without being a professional in
the field.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
And probably even like Ethan like, he probably hated Ethan
because he just would want to be a guy like that,
Like he would want to have friends and beautiful women
around them like that in college and like that. He
just could never be that person. And maybe that was
something with him too, you know, like a lot of
times you're like, was this accidental that these people so

(41:40):
happened to be there or not?

Speaker 1 (41:42):
You know, like, m yeah, and Ethan was sleeping as
we've heard, why did you kill him? Like why? It
was just And with doctor G who I interviewed, he
said he noticed a bit of jealousy when when someone
it was someone spoke on behalf of Bethany and she
said Ethan was Xanna's true love and it made everyone

(42:05):
believe that true love exists and he was just wonderful
and he wanted to be around him, and coworker didn't
like that.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's really interesting. So you speaking of
the victims' families, you are doing, You're going to be
a crime. Come with us that we're excited to see
you and hang out. I just looked at the date
today and I was like, oh my god, this isn't
a month, Like, yeah, I don't know what I'm gonna wear.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
I thought that too. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's
gotta clothes.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
So you're doing a panel with the family, correct, yep,
some of the family members exactly.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
And Livy's cousin Josh. His victim impact statement was amazing
and I was in the courtroom there. There weren't cameras,
but it was like from the heart. And I remember
that morning the printer wasn't working in the courthouse and
he's running around and he's about twenty two, I think, Anna,
but he memorized it the night before and essentially saying

(43:00):
there's a special place in hell for you, and just
it was from the heart. So the victim impact statements.
I while I was in there in the hearing Cobra
sentencing hearing and the impact statements there, I got a
text from Libby's sister Kelsey said, if you see another
family members, tell them I'm thinking about them, because to her,
she's like, I have a special place for sisters.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Oh my god, it's so sad. I think it helps.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
And even if he doesn't feel a thing, let's say
he doesn't, I think it helps in the healing process
to get that to be able to say that, to
be able to say that whatever you want to say.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Well, if our listeners are more interested in the Delphi case,
Susan has this incredible book. I'm going to link it
in the description of this episode. We are so very
excited to see you at Crime Con. Can you tell
everybody where else they could find you?

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yes. Started a YouTube channel called Headline Crime, and I'm
still learning everything about it. But I love being able
to be more like myself because as a news anchor,
you read the headlines and you're just trained in a
certain way. And friends with Lauren who does hidden true

(44:08):
crime and now I know you guys, but I always
think about, well, what do I like to watch and
what do I like to listen to? Because that's and
why am I drawn to that person? It's because you
want to hear real things, and you know, it's exciting.
I get to interview people surrounding certain cases and ask
questions that I've always wondered about, and I'm learning things

(44:30):
along the way, So it's exciting.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Yeah, I've seen some of your videos and you're getting
good views and it's it's awesome. I love it.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
Thanks. I'm crawling. I'm crawling out of the gate. But
I'm patient. They say you have to be patient.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
You have to That's that's just how it consistent. It's
very hard now, Like I feel like, because I started
my Instagram like thirteen years ago, now wow, yes, and
it was just so easy. Back then. It was very organic.
It was just like you post stuff and it you know,
that was when stuff showed up on your feed instantly,

(45:07):
like Instagram, right, And then now it's like, sometimes I'm
in my feed. I just saw a post the other
day that was from someone from May.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah, oh my god, I'm just like, I don't.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
Care about this. I want to know what the people
I'm following are doing today. You know, so so true.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, I get her you're following at times You're like, oh, exactly.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
And it's I mean, I follow Maria and I rarely
see her pictures, and then one I'll come up and
I go back on her account and I'm like, oh,
you've posted like six things I didn't see. You know,
it's just annoying. Its weird. Now YouTube's kind of the
same way, you know, It's just not as all those
people that got those millions of followers and and everything.
It's just like kind of not as easy to do anymore.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Right, you're right, You're right. But one thing I do know,
because I'm part of it different communities that I'm part of,
is that if you want to do it, and if
you have something to say or something to share, that
you will find people who enjoy listening to you. There
was a woman in the bathroom at the Coburger hearing
and she said, I've been thinking about starting a crime
channel and I said you should. Well, I don't know,

(46:11):
there's too many people. I'm like, well, no one's you.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
You know.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
If you want to start, start it. And that's the
beauty of having access and doing what you want to do.
And who cares if it's ten people, Yeah, eat you
and they like you, so just do it. That's my tidbit,
my two cents.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
That's perfect, It's true. All right.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
Well, thanks so much for being here today. It was
awesome and we're looking forward to hanging out too.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
And we're Jersey, my peeps.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
I said that in the intro. I was just like, oh, yeah,
like she's from Jersey, so we hit it off right away.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
Love it Jersey strong.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
Yes, thank you, all right, we'll see it. Thanks, thank
you for listening. To Mother Knows Death as a reminder,
my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a
master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

(47:06):
or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember

(47:27):
that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed
in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and

(47:51):
subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks

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