August 21, 2025 • 40 mins
Kevin and Casey do the unthinkable and actually listen to a track from U2’s infamous album that they thrust upon all iPhones in 2014. The boys will decide if this this promotional tactic was on The Edge of inappropriate or if they’re pro Bono.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Give it a chance, Give it a chance, Give it
a chance. Come morning, give it a chance. Give it
a chance, give it a chance, Give it a chance. Morning,
Give it a You want to give it a chance,
Give it a chance, Give it a chance. Just give
we're doing it.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It's I took a chance. You took a chance. Let's
all collectively take iron a chance.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Everyone screams it in their cars on the subway, like
with people around, They're all screaming.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Oh chance. You never know where this is going to
end up. We could be huge, dude, we could be
having that kind of Ferrispueler moment, street moment, street wibes.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
You know. I actually it's interesting because today's eppy.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Oh Mari, oh god, oh God, always work in this guy.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It's a cultural moment.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Uh oh, I'm not throwing away Matt shot. Isn't that No?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
You keep wanting it to be that. Well, I'm you just.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Gotta be hungry. I'm just like my country. Sorry, keep going.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I think we'd have to do a different Linn thing
because print Manuel, because it would because he you know,
he's got that in the heights. I the guy. The
guy's always like hamiltone Heights and I'm always like, I
don't think you say it that way.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I have so much we can't do this today. I
have so much lin Manuel stuff, double barrels. It's it's like, yeah,
it's like now, I mean also, I'm trying to we
hear this will be for another time. Chances this isn't
a bait and switch. We're not getting into lin Manuel
right now. What what is the cultural moment we're getting
into though?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Okay, Coldplay the two people I thought you were going
to guess that. I tell you're a guest that can
I say one thing about I know we're tangenting it again?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It doesn't matter at all. People just want to hear
us rap, dude.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
My favorite thing is that Kanye refers to Chris Martin
as Coldplay. He's like, he did a song with Chris Martin,
and He's like, I did a song with Coldplay. Yeah,
now jay Z is going to do a song with Coldplay.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I think for the precise thing, if I remember correctly
from Big Brother, which is the last song on Graduation,
is when he goes, I said I would do a
song with cold Play. Next thing, I know, you did
a song with Coldplay or something like that. And I
was like, uh, no way, Jose love it.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
All right? Sorry, sorry, sorry, okay, this is a cultural moment. Now.
You know. The fun thing is that listeners know what
it is from the from the name of the episode.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Oh okay, I don't know this yet.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And this is the first time that we've done an album.
Not then we're going to listen to the whole album,
but we're going to talk about this infamous album.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Oh my god, well scared, what do.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
You think is one of the most god yeah, infamous albums.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Ever, like of all time?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Infamy can mean yes, so yeah, I guess like what
was culturally like like a big cultural eye roll of
an album, A.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Bit a good hint culutural eye roll of an album?
Well in the present moment or is this in the past?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
It's past, all right.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I was thinking about this whole Will Smith rollout that
just happened, because I know, I even I know tangentially
that he has just been torn apart while doing that,
but I don't really. I only saw one freestyle where
said something about like I bite off more than I
could chew and then not chew it or something like that.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, I saw that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
The Katy Perry album that just came out last year.
People went nuts and a negative about that. Then she
flew into space.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Oh no, I knew the flu into space, but I
didn't hear much about the record. But you know, I'm
not really in it anymore with the with the Katy
Perry's I guess so okay.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So oh for two? So far are we going further
back into the public consciousness? This is amazing and an
infant Oh Chinese Democracy by Guns n' Roses. No.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
One day, I do want to do a song off
that I really do for you because you're such a
GNR guy, And I was like, I don't think you
probably know that record at all.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I have a story about that for that day too.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
We'll do that.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
We'll do that's always got stories about prim Manuel and
lyn Manuel and Axel Manuel.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
We do. We'll do China. Let's do Chinese democracy next episode.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
All right, fine, let's see okay, So are we? Are
we between two thousand and six and twenty four?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Six and twenty four?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, give me two more, two more chances. Between two
thousand and six and twenty four A notorious It was.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
A pretty beloved band that sort of like kind of
like like became a little bit more not in the zone.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh my god, it's the U two album that everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Put on that funny you got it, baby, you got it.
That's literally what I want to name the episode. I
want to name it the U two album that they
put on everybody's phones.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Like, that's what I want to so funny.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I don't want to name it. I don't want to
name it the song, whatever song we choose, because that
that's where I'm having trouble with and I need your help.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I don't know that. Isn't there a song called like
Saint Joey Ramone or something, the Ballad of Joey Ramone?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
So close, and it's so funny because it's so close
to your original band name, like you're your first, like
when I you're first, but like your your your band name.
It's called the Miracle of Joey Ramone.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
We have to do that. I think that's mandatory because
we have to do that. It's because this is my
favorite thing about God. You Too is such a rich,
rangey subject about I have feelings in every direction about
you two. There's certain moments in You Too that I
think are like undeniably almost transcendently beautiful. Even though I
(05:41):
probably never need to hear their music again for the
rest of my life, I've heard it. It's like there's
certain bands I'm like, I'm good on YouTube, I've heard
enough you too, But then if you hit me in
the right moment, I'm like, one comes on. I'm like,
this is like a spiritual experience listening to this song.
And then there's other things where I'm like, this is
the most hubristic, ridiculous man. He's like flirting with peak
(06:06):
unacceptable levels of cartoonish rock star indulgence, messianic horseshit.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So yeah, he's very Kanye. He's very It's very you know,
because there's stuff that he Kanye did that is like
so awesome, and then there's like trash and it's like
it's very it's different. I don't I wouldn't put Bono
to that, but it's really.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Well, maybe there's certain mental health induced public breakdown issues
with Kanye that put him in his own private Idaho
compared to a lot of other people, but I do
think the common thread is a person who certainly believes,
like Bono, thinks he's like the Pope or something or
(06:46):
that he's like some cross between like Leonard Cohen and
John F. Kennedy or something like that. Like he's a
really specific strain of like I fully get it when
there's people that are just like he's like some people's
prime offender. When it's like who is the person you
cannot handle at all? It's like bono, like you there
are certain people wouldn't even have to And I get it.
(07:08):
I fully get it.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
And is it because he's like always trying so hard
to save the world. But it's like from his mansion.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I think that there's little lifestyles of the rich and
famous in there for people. I also think there's a
like like what I definitely I think that's part of it.
There's a little bit of like who do you think
you are? I also think there is some of what
he does. There's like, you know, you take a dash
of ketus, you take a dash of There's like a
lot of like stuff going on with him. There's also
(07:37):
one of the best things. I encourage you all before
we even listen to the song. I know we got
to get into the actual song, which I've never heard.
I encourage you all. There is a video on the
internet in nineteen eighty six or seven or something where
you two is playing a street fair in San Francisco
and someone in San Francisco is wearing an SF San
(07:58):
Francisco Giants base ball cap and they're a ugtwo fan,
and they're freaking out in the front row, and he
stops the music and starts vamping over like a little
riff that's being played, screaming at the person who he
thinks is wearing a shin fane or Irish revolutionary and
he's like, you think that's cool, you think that's right,
(08:21):
And he's basically like and the person, I just wish
you could see the person because they're clearly going like, no, no, no, dude,
I'm a fan of the San Francisco Giants.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You're in in San Francisco. That's so funny. It is.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
It is really one of my five favorite I'll watch
that sometimes when I just need a little pick me
up and the espress he ain't hitting right that morning, but.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Anyway, you need a little douce chill.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, yeah, and that's the whole heat. Friend of the show.
Michael Iaderola, known as Dola, written about in the Modest
Mouse Book as criticizing modest mouse for on internet chats,
for doing advertisements. That's real. I encourage you, as Casey jo,
just to look at that. He's literally in a book
as quote Dola. But he once coined when we were
(09:10):
in high school that deep deep douche chill, the deep
one that like you shudder, it almost like takes hold
of your spine. He calls it the hohem h o
h e e m. And that has been in my
brain for the rest of time. Whenever he said it
was when Kevin Arnold does something really embarrassing on the
Wonder Years, usually in front of Winnie Cooper, and you
(09:32):
are like, can't move. It's the hohem Yeah, and Bono
is good for the hohim all day anyway. Then he
also thinks he's like the avatar of punk music, which
is why he sings things like the Ballad of Joey
Ramone or whatever. So there's a lot with Bono.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
So yeah, I guess without further ado uno dos trace cotorse,
let's jump into it. Okay, protest too much?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Okay, so may I say one thing. I feel like
I've talked too much. I'm gonna listen to you after this.
I just want to say one thing. I also I
want to make sure I have a soft spot for
you too, because my older brother John, when I was
a kid, this was like peak prime first wave of
(10:27):
You two, you know, yeah, and that was like his band,
and he was one of the people that definitely introduced
me to like whatever at the time was like a
strain of modern music, like first person I ever heard
any like, you know, I don't know so many of
those eighties bands through, especially kind of like relative peers
of You Two when they were still thought of it
(10:47):
as like almost like a new wave band, you know.
And that's like and I will also just say our
band had the opportunity a couple summers ago to play
at Red Rocks in Colorado, which is like a you know,
historic venue inside a mountain, and we listened on the
drive there to you Too the first time they played
at Red Rocks, and it's amazing. It's crazy because it's
(11:10):
really just like they're a band. It's just four people.
You can hear when the Edge plays a lead line,
there's like, oh, it's just a bass in drums under him,
like they're you know, and they were a real serious,
great band, and it's really hard to be a really
I don't know many that have been a real great
(11:31):
band in the zeitgeist for forty years, forty five years.
It's probably impossible. So I just want to say, before
anything else we get into in this episode, please don't
mistake that I don't see the value. Part of what
we'll talk about is the value of you two, I imagine.
But now we're talking about a song that was, you know,
(11:53):
implanted into our phones uninvitedly. Yeah, ten years ago.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
My background is that my brother definitely had You two albums,
and so I knew like the hits, but I didn't
ever have like a personal relationship with these songs. There
were times like because the first instrument I started on
was drums, and and there's definitely like a rite of
passage for like the Sunday Bloody Sunday drums, like they're
(12:21):
iconic and so like, as a drummer, you find these
moments that are like, you know, cool, that sounds cool,
Let me try that, let me learn that. And so
I think I give them credit for that. There's probably
they're probably a band that people learn, like, you know,
beginners learn all.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
The guitar for that song is the same you learn
that's like that are pegiation. Yeah, that's the that's like
riffs on riffs on riffs on drums and guitar in
that song.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, yeah, and and so and so I thought I
always thought that was cool. Never really got into them,
but it was funny. I love the I love the Ramones, Like,
it's so funny that he's like, this is a song
to attribute to Ramones, and I.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Way lots to say about that. Yeah, drummer.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
The drummer actually kind of does a Sunday bloody Sunday
drumming this. He's doing the double high hats. There's a
part where he's like like, you're like, you're doing your song,
you do it?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Mirror, the Miracle, Breath of you two.
(13:32):
I mean, before I forget it off the top of
my head, I should just say the following things immediately.
This song sounds like that drop Kick Murphy song that
everybody the the no no, no, Like there's this kind
of like.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yes, you're right.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
And then so I know that was the thing, that
pergy of Yeah, we gotta get the energy of like
that kind of thing. And we're Irish and you know
it's Boston, so we got it. We can claim that
because it's really ours. And then the other thing is
it really also feels like that the guitar but iron out,
which I think is supposed to sound like punk if
I'm being overly thought too, like whatever in my brain
(14:08):
about it, it sounds like that great first ever distorted
guitar sound from the Kinks, the barren air and air
and air and air, which they got from like breaking
the amp, you know, the speaker and the amp. So
that's like maybe they're going for like a proto punk
thing like where you know, we're gonna, we're gonna what's
the word, pay tribute to or and also mimic this
sound that's like kind of the sound that started loud
(14:31):
rock music was this guitar. Maybe that's not what was
being thought of, that's what it sounds like. It also
feels like it could be any Black Keys single from
the twenty tens, which I don't necessarily mean as a
positive thing. And I also feel like there's moments in
this where it's funny where you hear We've talked about
(14:51):
this on the show before and again this might be
an impossibility when existing at this altitude, but like someone
like Chris Martin was clearly influenced by Bono and you two.
Then there's a moment where, in order to try to
stay in the zeitgeist, the influencer starts to sound like
the influenced totally and his vocal delivery in this song
(15:14):
if you told me, the first verse of this song
was like a present day cold Play song where they
were like, we're gonna write a loud rock song to
throw off the scent of everyone who thinks we're like
a K pop band now or whatever it is. The
cold plate has become like that to me. He starts
sound like Bono, like when the chorus comes in, but
(15:34):
the first verse I was like, Oh, that's like Chris
Martin Bono doing Chris Martin doing Bono.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And another moment of like that, like you know that
Steve BUSHEMI mehm with the skateboard and like is like
they got danger Mouse to produce the album. That's who
made this record, So I like in this I could
be getting this wrong. But so they started working with
Danger Mouse for like two years on an album called
like Songs of Something Else.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Oh yeah, yes, yes, yes, I remember that.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, And then they worked with another producer but I
think there's stuff from both sessions that ended up on
yeah songs, you know, so so I think like that's
also maybe and then look, there's nothing wrong. I actually
like when you know, when you get you know, you
get like Rick Rubin working with Johnny Cash, Like that's
different and that's so fun totally, you know. So I'm
(16:24):
not saying that that's you know, like old old old
dudes can't work with Rick Rubin was even young at
the time. But you know, you know what true, right,
But there's a difference. There's a difference like when you
could smell this sort of teen spirit, this teen spirit
boom had to do it.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Sorry, go ahead, but seriously, though about Nirvana.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
You smell like the desperation right, like a little bit.
And I was also like, so this is ten years ago.
This is two thousand and fifty crazy by the way,
I know. And then they forced it on everyone's eye phones,
which also feels.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Like we're going to get to that that has to
be involved in this conversation, right, Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But I watched the music video, which you know I do.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Sometimes I love that that's the casey way.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It feels like they were trying to do like almost
like an I like an iPhone commercial or like a
yeah yeah yeahs music video or like you know, like
those what was popular, but even popular though in the
twenty tens, like they're already five years late to the
style of editing, you know, and it's and you know
that's the and and you're like the way they look
(17:31):
in it and stuff. It's like they never you know,
kind of glad that they look like you two and
the version of you two that was like the nineties
you Tube, Like, they don't look like the eighties you two,
which would be actually fun because that's what they because
that's a cool look. I like the way totally yeah yeah,
But they they stuck to this like nineties like you know,
if you looked up like the definition of like rock
(17:51):
and roll, they were like, okay, well where that and
they never changed from that and so that's dated too,
so but it's also like, well, that's who they are.
So that's fine. I know, I'm going a lot of anti.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
No you are and you're doing You're doing the Lord's
work right now. You're What I'm trying to do is
restrain myself from following you down each one of the
roads you're leading me too, because I have a like
encyclopedic voluminous amounts of negativity not just about you too,
but actually that are industrial in nature and maybe even
cultural in nature. When you just said the thing about
(18:24):
like if you looked up the dictionary definition or whatever
it is of.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Like what is rock?
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, that's part of the problem here for me as
these people age, is like there are very few examples
of people who've done it gracefully. And part of it
is because there's a whole infrastructure surrounding them that is
like chasing some patina of cool that I actually just
think gets more and more mortifying. Like as you age,
(18:54):
there's just like a point like I don't really want
to see somebody who's trying to hold on to a
kind of like you know what I'm saying, there's a
particular kind of like cool that I'm like, just let
it go.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
The strange thing is like the same people doesn't hold
on to the thing that that that it gives you
the the voice, right, like there's no trying to be
original and like authentic to yourself. It's like the it's yeah,
it's the it's the version. It's like this the prototypical
version of what it looks like. It's the aesthetic without
(19:32):
the actual like work. Yeah, and and like you know,
and that's why people look the way they did when
it first started, Like that's why punks looked the way
they did. That's why I like Jimmy Hendrick. It was
like there was these were really authenticst like authentic people
that did these things that were about then like you know,
(19:52):
have been like cosplayed to death totally. But you know,
it's like go back to the thing that's you know,
and it's hard. It's hard for like a person that's
in their sixties to connect with the world. But also
sometimes it's like, don't.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That's the thing. I think what you just nailed in
the verry And they're like, that's the thing. It's not.
You know, we've talked a few times on this podcast
about and you and I certainly have talked about this
just in life about because I don't know, we navigate
the spaces we navigate, and my brain is wired for
better and so much often for worse. If you ask
the people who are for whatever reason still decide to
(20:27):
work with me, there are things that are very like
unhelpful and maybe even self spiting about the degree to
which I think about some of what we're talking about,
And it's because I do think what you just landed
at was like, well, don't like, not, don't participate, not,
don't be. I think maybe sometimes the most authentic thing
(20:47):
someone can do is try is not try to be
connected to the zeitgeist when the zeitgeist is no longer
your zeitgeist. That doesn't mean you can't like, admire, and like.
It doesn't mean you can't be. You could be sick
and like Olivia Rodrigo, or you could be whatever. But
I just mean, like, if you start trying to fucking
act like Olivia Rodrigo, I think that's weird. And I
(21:09):
recognize part of what makes it challenging for these people.
I think, as a person who has the most infinitesimal
fraction of a glimpse into their lived experience is that
there is a there is an entire industry, infrastructure, and
industry around you, right that exists to try to convince
(21:30):
you you're still really fucking cool and so you I
think it would be really hard to be like like
I think, I know this is another one that comes up,
but also actually even going here as a totally count
becassinever had the experience Bono did either, but someone like
a Leonard Cohen In that song Tower of Song, I See,
(21:52):
I know, he says something like I ache in the
places where I used to play, which is a really
funny lyric about aging. I think talking about sex probably
when he says that, because he's often talking about sex
and sexuality. But like he didn't try to like be
uh sixty years old, like adopting whatever cool posture a
(22:14):
twenty five year old would have adopted. He kind of,
in fact, when in his totally other, random, weird direction,
it was like, I'll play a cassio that sounds like
a four year old wrote the guitar graph the piano parts,
and I'll like dress in like, you know, he kind
of was like an old man before he was an
old man in a lot of ways. But I just wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, I want to go back to the I'm sorry
if I'm cutting you. O.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
No, no, no, no, that was a cul de sac
we didn't need to live in any No. No.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I like that because it reminded me, like I want
to go back to the Johnny Cash Yes, right, yes,
because I don't think he ever tried to work hard
to be relevant. He always did his thing, and in fact,
like and that's what you're kind of shooting for, right,
Like he's working, he's working with Rick Rubin and they're
doing a cover of Hurt, which was not even the
biggest song, but like it was. It was a from
(23:00):
the nineties by Nine Inch Nails, which is cool and
like on paper, that's so funny. He completely made it
his own's it took new meaning to the song and
it's it's not like it wasn't like a song that
was popular at the time that he was covering. It
was like an older song. He did it and it
charted and it blew up.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
He died soon after, which like add to the whole
story of it. It felt so relevant out of his
mouth that as it did when you know, what's his
name from Nine Inch Nails, Brent resn Yeah, Trent saying
it like as like a youth, and it's like that's
such a cool moment and and like, but I used
to do a joke. We're trying to gash starts covering
(23:45):
everything and he's like starships were made to fly, hands
up because we're so high like he just starts doing
NICKI Minaj. Like that's the difference, right there is like
that he wouldn't do that, like he wouldn't do well.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
But I'm on the floor. Oh but no, actually he did,
Actually he did. He did do it, and we're here
to premiere it for you now, so give this a check. No,
but in all, Siri, don't open up Siri. Sorry, not
real Siri, and all. Seriously, what you're saying is actually
(24:23):
the I think the spinal column in there, that's the
real thing. When Johnny Cash and Rick Rubin apparently who knows,
It's always like who knows the degree to which these
are real stories or their apocryphal but from what I
have heard and read or whatever. And I have a
lot of thoughts about Rick Rubin, which is for another conversation.
(24:44):
But I also think on some level, it's like, you know,
the track record is the track record. I think certain
things I've heard him say philosophically are a little like
I roll inducing to me. But but but when it
comes to this specific artist, in that specific relationship, I
think that they did some really incredible bull like career
defining shit together that I also think from a quality perspective,
(25:06):
you can have career defining shit that isn't actually very good,
and you can have career defining shit that is also like,
holy shit, that's incredible. He he heard and saw something
in Johnny Cash that Johnny Cash would almost like let
lie dormant for a very long time, kind of in
the service of like making a living. Like when he
finds Johnny Cash in the early nineties, he's like playing Branson, Missouri,
(25:31):
the Yakov Smirnoff place, which is kind of where like
a certain like it's like at the it's like the
you know, d List Broadway or Atlantic City Entertainment of
the Midwest. Johnny Cash is doing shows there where he's
like fucking opening for comics and stuff on Sunday afternoons,
half full houses. And he finds out he goes to
(25:52):
see him, and he's like, this shouldn't be what this
dude is doing. This guy's like an American legend, like iconic,
you know. And he brings him to La to play
a showcase somewhere forget where the Roxy or something, and
then he's like, all I want to do is put
a microphone in a room and you play some songs.
And he reconnects him to the spirit in the heart
of what it is that he does. Now they then
(26:14):
he curates a bunch of yes like interesting and at
times zeitgeist flirting covers over the arc of those four
or five albums for Johnny Cash to do. But what
they do that is the whole fucking point to me,
is they bring those covers into Johnny Cash's world. Johnny
Cash doesn't cover sound Garden by trying to sound like Soundgarden.
(26:37):
He doesn't cover nine Inch Nos. He doesn't even cover
like Will Oldham or Nick Cave or Leonard Cohen. When
he does those songs, which was to connect him to
a kind of like alternative songwriter world, it's Johnny Cash
singing those songs. Yeah, I think that you have to
have a certain gravity to pull that off. But I
would make the argument that a band like you two
(26:58):
should have that gravity, and I agree. And this isn't
a cover, this is a pastiche So we're being maybe
a little unfair. They're not doing a Ramone song. They're
doing a song that actually has nothing to do in
its information with the Ramones, but somehow just throwing his
name into it for credibility or something but.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
That is a muddy pastiche too, because it's like they're
referencing like themselves, because they're trying to sound like themselves
at this point, but they're like, who are we anymore?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
What is that? What does that mean? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Right, and that's hard and that gives me a little
bit when we've talked about this like some kind of
monster vibes where they're like Metallica's figuring out like what
Metallica is and.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I'm madly in anger with you. That's that's an all
timer for me. Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
That must be hard, like to be on your third
or fourth decade of a of a band, specifically, even
more so than as a songwriter, because songwriter you're always
it's it's you and you're doing your thing and you know,
like I'm sure that you hit your little you know
moments where it's hard to write, like writers block moments,
and but it's not like what do we sound like?
(28:13):
What are we trying to put out as this unit?
And I give them a chance in that this is
a hard feat and the time is hard too, like
remember like I remember, I remember Paul McCartney put out
a record around this time and he's like got a
ukulele and he's like and it's and it's like it
sounds exactly like a Paul McCartney song, but it also
(28:36):
doesn't because it's like him doing an impression of Paul McCartney.
And it's like, I remember, but I remember a friend
who is he was like a swim coach when I
was a kid, and I just you know, you kind
of grow up and you start to be like close
enough in age that you know your friends. But he's
still like twenty five years old.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
He's like, I love this Paul McCartney album, like I
made you, I burned you a copy of it was
so sweet, and he was he's a five fighter two
and he loved it, right yeah yeah, And you're like, okay,
like so so maybe this YouTube song does have an audience.
Now we should get to is that audience every single
(29:13):
person that has an iPhone?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well that yeah, And and I mean I also just
to just to I think this has been such a
fertile conversation. There's so much in it. I feel like
we could do like a four hour version of this
podcast just like kind of just kind of at the
like macro level, But I feel like yeah, and I
don't I only a band like you two. It's like,
(29:37):
how are they supposed to even there is no way
to have a clear understanding of what you are in
your fourth or fifth decade, and what you are is
how do you even know when you are impersonating yourself
or not at this point because you've become such a
publicly owned commodity in a way that it's a really
hard to separate, Like what is my mission statement? Forty
(30:00):
years into being bono? And what does it mean to
be Bono or bono in quotes? What does it mean
to be you two or U two end quotes? Someone
like Paul McCartney. I actually think it's amazing that he can.
That speaks to actually kind of like how gifted to
some degree and maybe the way media has changed so
many times over the arc of his career in life,
that guy hasn't been a normal person for sixty five years,
(30:24):
sixty two years whatever that even means by I'm using
those words or trust everyone can define them for themselves,
but like, so, how does Paul McCartney even know? I
actually think he deserves a lot of credit for making
a bunch of like weirdo explorations over the course of
his career into like what is it like if I
do this even the UKULELEI to be, like, what's it
like if I make a record where that's the primary instrument?
(30:47):
Oh that people talk about this radio headband? What would
it be like if I was produced by that guy? Oh,
Nirvana had a left handed guitarist that died. What would
it be like if I played live with the remaining
members of that band and just made some noise? Like
he try? Is interesting things anyway. One thing not even
Sir Paul has tried, as you mentioned, is me. Yeah, yeah,
(31:08):
it's true, not for a long time. That is great.
That's the end of the pod is forcing every iPhone.
I mean that is such. That is such a perfect
in its way distillation of everything we're talking about, like
talk about art versus commerce. Like whoever had to talk
them into that's a cool idea?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Oh, I feel like it was fully Bono's idea. And
then like Tim Cook or whoever, was like okay, and
like felt like he had to because it's like it
feels like that like that faux charity, right, It's like
it's like I'm gonna give everyone I'm gonna get I
think I'm gonna get everyone the album for free.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I like turning Bono into like a Dickenzie and Street urchin.
That's really really good.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Oh Franky Mark gave a Tim for free Sunday vice.
Su Uh.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
This is really just you know, so Irish, very Irish.
It's really whiff a way out. Yet I can't I
mean that's I feel like I can't live can't live out. Yeah,
I can't live while without which uh it'soy we hood
(32:28):
lim man as. Anyway, I don't even know what's to
be said about that. Whoever's idea was what was great.
There are moments where the culture surprises you. I kind
of wish sometimes it would surprise us more and about
more important things. But this was a moment where people
in almost ubiquity were like, what the fuck is this?
(32:48):
I don't know. I never met anybody that was like, no,
you know, it's so sick. When you two did that,
it was everybody biggest fans in the world.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
It was even that was kind of like wait what
because it was a weird time, right, because remember like
Radio had put out their album for free. It was
in rainbows and that was what you Oh yeah, pay
what you want. That was the first and that seemed
like it was like what year was that? That's that
was two thousand and seven, that was right, So yeah,
so it was like seven years later they were like, okay,
we'll do it now too.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
But it's the opposite. It's the polar opposite. That was, hey,
we're a huge band. We can go on tour whether
anybody buys this record or not, and gross millions of
dollars globally. So you know what what we think would
be cool is make this. It's always elective whether or
not you want to engage with music or not, but
(33:38):
now we're going to make it doubly elective. You can
engage with this, and if you don't want to pay
for it, you don't have to. This was like, I'm
sure you two got paid for that millions and million.
I'm sure it wasn't a fucking gradis thing between Apple
and you two, or Emi and Apple or there's no
(34:01):
world in which that was a free And it's like
like economics at fucking high school. It was like, there
is no such thing as a free lunch. There's no
such thing as a free you two record on an iPhone.
There's just no now when everyone involves fucking you two
at this point is a multinational corporation, but E AM,
I and Apple are like the biggest baddies out there,
(34:22):
you know, two of them, so to be like it was,
there's no way that that was like totally the opposite
of whatever. Fucking And that's what makes this thing so funny.
By the way, as we round out towards the end here,
there's nothing what is less punk rock mandating everyone with
(34:43):
this device gets your record on a given day because
the corporations say so. And then you try to like
fucking make it look like some magnanimous gesture and you
reference Joey Ramone in your song. I can't think of
something more like. There's layers of ludicrous out of touchness
at the heart of.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Letters of ludicrous out of touchness.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
That's why I'm a duchess and I'm not throwing away money.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yes, yes, yes, full sirk mabe full sirk.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Well, what's the verdict case at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I this was a tough one to give a chance
because you know, like culturally we all, like you said,
all hated this. So you know, so it's like it's
starting on such a wrong foot, but yeah, it's also
I finished that song and was like, I can't tell
you many lyrics. I can't tell you many moments that
(35:39):
impressed me. It just felt so stock.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Most importantly divorced from everything else we just talked about,
which I think is all I always don't think that
that's the most interesting and important conversation to have is
all of those conversations. But at the heart of it
is a song, and you're right. The thing that just
to even bring it back to that, it is a
five out of ten, and that's the worst place to be.
It's not a one, it's not a ten. It is
(36:04):
it sounds like they over That is the definition to
some degree of like polishing a turd. The production is unassailable.
They have all the oh, let's put the ooos in
for a hook, everything sounds great, the choice is made,
but there is nothing. The chorus comes and goes and
you're like, that was the chorus. There is nothing to
(36:25):
that song. It's a very milk toast song, and that
I certainly do not think is the miracle of Joey Ramone.
I guess lyrically he's talking about finding punk music and
it giving him a voice and a kind of spirit
of liberation, and that's great. But then there's a lot
of throwing shit in there that feels a little bit
like he did. It was like his first pass and
(36:45):
it was like print it anyway.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
You know, it's kind of crazy about this. How much
time we have we can let's rap with this. So
oh there was I was thinking about this because it's
trying to be a very similar thing with those big guitars.
The other day, I Good Times, Bad Times came on
by Zeppelin. Yeah, yeah, that's what is it called good Days,
(37:11):
Bad Times? Good Times?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's what this pot is called? Good Days, Bad Times?
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Good Times? Bad Times comes on and I'm like this still,
Like I feel it, like it. It's it's still impressive.
Everyone's working, they're they're doing their best, Like everyone's doing
something so fun and unique. It's heavy, it's it's interesting,
it's provocative, and it's like from the get go, the
(37:38):
tones are great, Like the drumming is unbelievable and like
it holds up. If I heard that on the radio
for the first time, I'd be like, whoa, what is this? Yeah,
it just starts like that, and that whole song is
twists and turns. It's like everyone's playing at ten and
not like you have to make every song be that
and every genre should be that. But if you are
(38:00):
swing for it, you should be like this is still
something to compare yourself to totally amaze some degree.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Maybe a fair thing to point out about that is,
unless I'm wrong, led Zeppelin's entire recorded output spans what
a decade they live in our consciousness, right, But Good
Times Bad Times, I still think is like from whatever
it's it's even if it was the last record, isn't
that like nineteen eighty or something, nineteen seventy eight?
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Now this, I think Good Times Bad Time is on
an earlier record, right, That's.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
What I mean. So like, yeah, they I guess you
could say the same thing about whatever was on you know,
Boy or War or The Unforgetable Fire, you know what
I mean? Like I think what I always have to
remind myself about these bands, even the Beatles, the Beatles,
led Zeppelin, certainly things like Nirvana where you know he
(38:50):
was a kid. It's like they didn't have to well,
the individual members of those bands, with the exception of
ones who've died do age into potential irrelevance or into
these embarrassments that are unavoidable. People that die when they're
twenty five thirty years old, they're ensconced for eternity in
that peak of cool, you know what I mean. They
(39:11):
didn't have to like degrade themselves further over forty years.
But I do think there is something to be said
for like, yeah, maybe if the spark's not there, like
take a little time, because even that early two thousands
U two stuff. Well, maybe I'll shut up after this,
Like I'm not saying that's my favorite music by them,
Vertigo and Beautiful Day and Stuck in a Moment, But
(39:32):
that's there's vitality in that music.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I think so too.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
There absolutely is. And you could still hear a band
who's having fun. You could still hear a band who's
like and maybe that's the last point. Maybe they tried
their experimental moment in the last part of the nineties
where he's like making pop, they're making dance music or
what they think dance music is electronic music. He's dressed
in a glitter suit with makeup and he's the devil.
And then it was like people were like, we just
wanted to sound like you too, So they make that
(39:56):
record where they sound like you too, and then it
seems like from that point for wh they've been sort
of cause playing you two to diminishing returns and that's
my chance times anti chance, and I'm not throwing my ship. Yeah,
(40:17):
I see you forever
Give it a chance, Give it a chance, Give it
a chance. Come morning, give it a chance. Give it
a chance, give it a chance, Give it a chance. Morning,
Give it a You want to give it a chance,
Give it a chance, Give it a chance. Just give
we're doing it.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It's I took a chance. You took a chance. Let's
all collectively take iron a chance.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Everyone screams it in their cars on the subway, like
with people around, They're all screaming.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Oh chance. You never know where this is going to
end up. We could be huge, dude, we could be
having that kind of Ferrispueler moment, street moment, street wibes.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
You know. I actually it's interesting because today's eppy.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Oh Mari, oh god, oh God, always work in this guy.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It's a cultural moment.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Uh oh, I'm not throwing away Matt shot. Isn't that No?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
You keep wanting it to be that. Well, I'm you just.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Gotta be hungry. I'm just like my country. Sorry, keep going.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I think we'd have to do a different Linn thing
because print Manuel, because it would because he you know,
he's got that in the heights. I the guy. The
guy's always like hamiltone Heights and I'm always like, I
don't think you say it that way.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I have so much we can't do this today. I
have so much lin Manuel stuff, double barrels. It's it's like, yeah,
it's like now, I mean also, I'm trying to we
hear this will be for another time. Chances this isn't
a bait and switch. We're not getting into lin Manuel
right now. What what is the cultural moment we're getting
into though?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Okay, Coldplay the two people I thought you were going
to guess that. I tell you're a guest that can
I say one thing about I know we're tangenting it again?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It doesn't matter at all. People just want to hear
us rap, dude.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
My favorite thing is that Kanye refers to Chris Martin
as Coldplay. He's like, he did a song with Chris Martin,
and He's like, I did a song with Coldplay. Yeah,
now jay Z is going to do a song with Coldplay.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I think for the precise thing, if I remember correctly
from Big Brother, which is the last song on Graduation,
is when he goes, I said I would do a
song with cold Play. Next thing, I know, you did
a song with Coldplay or something like that. And I
was like, uh, no way, Jose love it.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
All right? Sorry, sorry, sorry, okay, this is a cultural moment. Now.
You know. The fun thing is that listeners know what
it is from the from the name of the episode.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Oh okay, I don't know this yet.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And this is the first time that we've done an album.
Not then we're going to listen to the whole album,
but we're going to talk about this infamous album.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Oh my god, well scared, what do.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
You think is one of the most god yeah, infamous albums.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Ever, like of all time?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Infamy can mean yes, so yeah, I guess like what
was culturally like like a big cultural eye roll of
an album, A.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Bit a good hint culutural eye roll of an album?
Well in the present moment or is this in the past?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
It's past, all right.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I was thinking about this whole Will Smith rollout that
just happened, because I know, I even I know tangentially
that he has just been torn apart while doing that,
but I don't really. I only saw one freestyle where
said something about like I bite off more than I
could chew and then not chew it or something like that.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, I saw that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
The Katy Perry album that just came out last year.
People went nuts and a negative about that. Then she
flew into space.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Oh no, I knew the flu into space, but I
didn't hear much about the record. But you know, I'm
not really in it anymore with the with the Katy
Perry's I guess so okay.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So oh for two? So far are we going further
back into the public consciousness? This is amazing and an
infant Oh Chinese Democracy by Guns n' Roses. No.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
One day, I do want to do a song off
that I really do for you because you're such a
GNR guy, And I was like, I don't think you
probably know that record at all.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I have a story about that for that day too.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
We'll do that.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
We'll do that's always got stories about prim Manuel and
lyn Manuel and Axel Manuel.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
We do. We'll do China. Let's do Chinese democracy next episode.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
All right, fine, let's see okay, So are we? Are
we between two thousand and six and twenty four?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Six and twenty four?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, give me two more, two more chances. Between two
thousand and six and twenty four A notorious It was.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
A pretty beloved band that sort of like kind of
like like became a little bit more not in the zone.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Oh my god, it's the U two album that everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Put on that funny you got it, baby, you got it.
That's literally what I want to name the episode. I
want to name it the U two album that they
put on everybody's phones.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Like, that's what I want to so funny.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I don't want to name it. I don't want to
name it the song, whatever song we choose, because that
that's where I'm having trouble with and I need your help.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I don't know that. Isn't there a song called like
Saint Joey Ramone or something, the Ballad of Joey Ramone?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
So close, and it's so funny because it's so close
to your original band name, like you're your first, like
when I you're first, but like your your your band name.
It's called the Miracle of Joey Ramone.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
We have to do that. I think that's mandatory because
we have to do that. It's because this is my
favorite thing about God. You Too is such a rich,
rangey subject about I have feelings in every direction about
you two. There's certain moments in You Too that I
think are like undeniably almost transcendently beautiful. Even though I
(05:41):
probably never need to hear their music again for the
rest of my life, I've heard it. It's like there's
certain bands I'm like, I'm good on YouTube, I've heard
enough you too, But then if you hit me in
the right moment, I'm like, one comes on. I'm like,
this is like a spiritual experience listening to this song.
And then there's other things where I'm like, this is
the most hubristic, ridiculous man. He's like flirting with peak
(06:06):
unacceptable levels of cartoonish rock star indulgence, messianic horseshit.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So yeah, he's very Kanye. He's very It's very you know,
because there's stuff that he Kanye did that is like
so awesome, and then there's like trash and it's like
it's very it's different. I don't I wouldn't put Bono
to that, but it's really.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Well, maybe there's certain mental health induced public breakdown issues
with Kanye that put him in his own private Idaho
compared to a lot of other people, but I do
think the common thread is a person who certainly believes,
like Bono, thinks he's like the Pope or something or
(06:46):
that he's like some cross between like Leonard Cohen and
John F. Kennedy or something like that. Like he's a
really specific strain of like I fully get it when
there's people that are just like he's like some people's
prime offender. When it's like who is the person you
cannot handle at all? It's like bono, like you there
are certain people wouldn't even have to And I get it.
(07:08):
I fully get it.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
And is it because he's like always trying so hard
to save the world. But it's like from his mansion.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I think that there's little lifestyles of the rich and
famous in there for people. I also think there's a
like like what I definitely I think that's part of it.
There's a little bit of like who do you think
you are? I also think there is some of what
he does. There's like, you know, you take a dash
of ketus, you take a dash of There's like a
lot of like stuff going on with him. There's also
(07:37):
one of the best things. I encourage you all before
we even listen to the song. I know we got
to get into the actual song, which I've never heard.
I encourage you all. There is a video on the
internet in nineteen eighty six or seven or something where
you two is playing a street fair in San Francisco
and someone in San Francisco is wearing an SF San
(07:58):
Francisco Giants base ball cap and they're a ugtwo fan,
and they're freaking out in the front row, and he
stops the music and starts vamping over like a little
riff that's being played, screaming at the person who he
thinks is wearing a shin fane or Irish revolutionary and
he's like, you think that's cool, you think that's right,
(08:21):
And he's basically like and the person, I just wish
you could see the person because they're clearly going like, no, no, no, dude,
I'm a fan of the San Francisco Giants.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You're in in San Francisco. That's so funny. It is.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
It is really one of my five favorite I'll watch
that sometimes when I just need a little pick me
up and the espress he ain't hitting right that morning, but.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Anyway, you need a little douce chill.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, yeah, and that's the whole heat. Friend of the show.
Michael Iaderola, known as Dola, written about in the Modest
Mouse Book as criticizing modest mouse for on internet chats,
for doing advertisements. That's real. I encourage you, as Casey jo,
just to look at that. He's literally in a book
as quote Dola. But he once coined when we were
(09:10):
in high school that deep deep douche chill, the deep
one that like you shudder, it almost like takes hold
of your spine. He calls it the hohem h o
h e e m. And that has been in my
brain for the rest of time. Whenever he said it
was when Kevin Arnold does something really embarrassing on the
Wonder Years, usually in front of Winnie Cooper, and you
(09:32):
are like, can't move. It's the hohem Yeah, and Bono
is good for the hohim all day anyway. Then he
also thinks he's like the avatar of punk music, which
is why he sings things like the Ballad of Joey
Ramone or whatever. So there's a lot with Bono.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
So yeah, I guess without further ado uno dos trace cotorse,
let's jump into it. Okay, protest too much?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Okay, so may I say one thing. I feel like
I've talked too much. I'm gonna listen to you after this.
I just want to say one thing. I also I
want to make sure I have a soft spot for
you too, because my older brother John, when I was
a kid, this was like peak prime first wave of
(10:27):
You two, you know, yeah, and that was like his band,
and he was one of the people that definitely introduced
me to like whatever at the time was like a
strain of modern music, like first person I ever heard
any like, you know, I don't know so many of
those eighties bands through, especially kind of like relative peers
of You Two when they were still thought of it
(10:47):
as like almost like a new wave band, you know.
And that's like and I will also just say our
band had the opportunity a couple summers ago to play
at Red Rocks in Colorado, which is like a you know,
historic venue inside a mountain, and we listened on the
drive there to you Too the first time they played
at Red Rocks, and it's amazing. It's crazy because it's
(11:10):
really just like they're a band. It's just four people.
You can hear when the Edge plays a lead line,
there's like, oh, it's just a bass in drums under him,
like they're you know, and they were a real serious,
great band, and it's really hard to be a really
I don't know many that have been a real great
(11:31):
band in the zeitgeist for forty years, forty five years.
It's probably impossible. So I just want to say, before
anything else we get into in this episode, please don't
mistake that I don't see the value. Part of what
we'll talk about is the value of you two, I imagine.
But now we're talking about a song that was, you know,
(11:53):
implanted into our phones uninvitedly. Yeah, ten years ago.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
My background is that my brother definitely had You two albums,
and so I knew like the hits, but I didn't
ever have like a personal relationship with these songs. There
were times like because the first instrument I started on
was drums, and and there's definitely like a rite of
passage for like the Sunday Bloody Sunday drums, like they're
(12:21):
iconic and so like, as a drummer, you find these
moments that are like, you know, cool, that sounds cool,
Let me try that, let me learn that. And so
I think I give them credit for that. There's probably
they're probably a band that people learn, like, you know,
beginners learn all.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
The guitar for that song is the same you learn
that's like that are pegiation. Yeah, that's the that's like
riffs on riffs on riffs on drums and guitar in
that song.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, yeah, and and so and so I thought I
always thought that was cool. Never really got into them,
but it was funny. I love the I love the Ramones, Like,
it's so funny that he's like, this is a song
to attribute to Ramones, and I.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Way lots to say about that. Yeah, drummer.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
The drummer actually kind of does a Sunday bloody Sunday
drumming this. He's doing the double high hats. There's a
part where he's like like, you're like, you're doing your song,
you do it?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Mirror, the Miracle, Breath of you two.
(13:32):
I mean, before I forget it off the top of
my head, I should just say the following things immediately.
This song sounds like that drop Kick Murphy song that
everybody the the no no, no, Like there's this kind
of like.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yes, you're right.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
And then so I know that was the thing, that
pergy of Yeah, we gotta get the energy of like
that kind of thing. And we're Irish and you know
it's Boston, so we got it. We can claim that
because it's really ours. And then the other thing is
it really also feels like that the guitar but iron out,
which I think is supposed to sound like punk if
I'm being overly thought too, like whatever in my brain
(14:08):
about it, it sounds like that great first ever distorted
guitar sound from the Kinks, the barren air and air
and air and air, which they got from like breaking
the amp, you know, the speaker and the amp. So
that's like maybe they're going for like a proto punk
thing like where you know, we're gonna, we're gonna what's
the word, pay tribute to or and also mimic this
sound that's like kind of the sound that started loud
(14:31):
rock music was this guitar. Maybe that's not what was
being thought of, that's what it sounds like. It also
feels like it could be any Black Keys single from
the twenty tens, which I don't necessarily mean as a
positive thing. And I also feel like there's moments in
this where it's funny where you hear We've talked about
(14:51):
this on the show before and again this might be
an impossibility when existing at this altitude, but like someone
like Chris Martin was clearly influenced by Bono and you two.
Then there's a moment where, in order to try to
stay in the zeitgeist, the influencer starts to sound like
the influenced totally and his vocal delivery in this song
(15:14):
if you told me, the first verse of this song
was like a present day cold Play song where they
were like, we're gonna write a loud rock song to
throw off the scent of everyone who thinks we're like
a K pop band now or whatever it is. The
cold plate has become like that to me. He starts
sound like Bono, like when the chorus comes in, but
(15:34):
the first verse I was like, Oh, that's like Chris
Martin Bono doing Chris Martin doing Bono.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And another moment of like that, like you know that
Steve BUSHEMI mehm with the skateboard and like is like
they got danger Mouse to produce the album. That's who
made this record, So I like in this I could
be getting this wrong. But so they started working with
Danger Mouse for like two years on an album called
like Songs of Something Else.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Oh yeah, yes, yes, yes, I remember that.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, And then they worked with another producer but I
think there's stuff from both sessions that ended up on
yeah songs, you know, so so I think like that's
also maybe and then look, there's nothing wrong. I actually
like when you know, when you get you know, you
get like Rick Rubin working with Johnny Cash, Like that's
different and that's so fun totally, you know. So I'm
(16:24):
not saying that that's you know, like old old old
dudes can't work with Rick Rubin was even young at
the time. But you know, you know what true, right,
But there's a difference. There's a difference like when you
could smell this sort of teen spirit, this teen spirit
boom had to do it.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Sorry, go ahead, but seriously, though about Nirvana.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
You smell like the desperation right, like a little bit.
And I was also like, so this is ten years ago.
This is two thousand and fifty crazy by the way,
I know. And then they forced it on everyone's eye phones,
which also feels.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Like we're going to get to that that has to
be involved in this conversation, right, Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But I watched the music video, which you know I do.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Sometimes I love that that's the casey way.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It feels like they were trying to do like almost
like an I like an iPhone commercial or like a
yeah yeah yeahs music video or like you know, like
those what was popular, but even popular though in the
twenty tens, like they're already five years late to the
style of editing, you know, and it's and you know
that's the and and you're like the way they look
(17:31):
in it and stuff. It's like they never you know,
kind of glad that they look like you two and
the version of you two that was like the nineties
you Tube, Like, they don't look like the eighties you two,
which would be actually fun because that's what they because
that's a cool look. I like the way totally yeah yeah,
But they they stuck to this like nineties like you know,
if you looked up like the definition of like rock
(17:51):
and roll, they were like, okay, well where that and
they never changed from that and so that's dated too,
so but it's also like, well, that's who they are.
So that's fine. I know, I'm going a lot of anti.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
No you are and you're doing You're doing the Lord's
work right now. You're What I'm trying to do is
restrain myself from following you down each one of the
roads you're leading me too, because I have a like
encyclopedic voluminous amounts of negativity not just about you too,
but actually that are industrial in nature and maybe even
cultural in nature. When you just said the thing about
(18:24):
like if you looked up the dictionary definition or whatever
it is of.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Like what is rock?
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, that's part of the problem here for me as
these people age, is like there are very few examples
of people who've done it gracefully. And part of it
is because there's a whole infrastructure surrounding them that is
like chasing some patina of cool that I actually just
think gets more and more mortifying. Like as you age,
(18:54):
there's just like a point like I don't really want
to see somebody who's trying to hold on to a
kind of like you know what I'm saying, there's a
particular kind of like cool that I'm like, just let
it go.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
The strange thing is like the same people doesn't hold
on to the thing that that that it gives you
the the voice, right, like there's no trying to be
original and like authentic to yourself. It's like the it's yeah,
it's the it's the version. It's like this the prototypical
version of what it looks like. It's the aesthetic without
(19:32):
the actual like work. Yeah, and and like you know,
and that's why people look the way they did when
it first started, Like that's why punks looked the way
they did. That's why I like Jimmy Hendrick. It was
like there was these were really authenticst like authentic people
that did these things that were about then like you know,
(19:52):
have been like cosplayed to death totally. But you know,
it's like go back to the thing that's you know,
and it's hard. It's hard for like a person that's
in their sixties to connect with the world. But also
sometimes it's like, don't.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That's the thing. I think what you just nailed in
the verry And they're like, that's the thing. It's not.
You know, we've talked a few times on this podcast
about and you and I certainly have talked about this
just in life about because I don't know, we navigate
the spaces we navigate, and my brain is wired for
better and so much often for worse. If you ask
the people who are for whatever reason still decide to
(20:27):
work with me, there are things that are very like
unhelpful and maybe even self spiting about the degree to
which I think about some of what we're talking about,
And it's because I do think what you just landed
at was like, well, don't like, not, don't participate, not,
don't be. I think maybe sometimes the most authentic thing
(20:47):
someone can do is try is not try to be
connected to the zeitgeist when the zeitgeist is no longer
your zeitgeist. That doesn't mean you can't like, admire, and like.
It doesn't mean you can't be. You could be sick
and like Olivia Rodrigo, or you could be whatever. But
I just mean, like, if you start trying to fucking
act like Olivia Rodrigo, I think that's weird. And I
(21:09):
recognize part of what makes it challenging for these people.
I think, as a person who has the most infinitesimal
fraction of a glimpse into their lived experience is that
there is a there is an entire industry, infrastructure, and
industry around you, right that exists to try to convince
(21:30):
you you're still really fucking cool and so you I
think it would be really hard to be like like
I think, I know this is another one that comes up,
but also actually even going here as a totally count
becassinever had the experience Bono did either, but someone like
a Leonard Cohen In that song Tower of Song, I See,
(21:52):
I know, he says something like I ache in the
places where I used to play, which is a really
funny lyric about aging. I think talking about sex probably
when he says that, because he's often talking about sex
and sexuality. But like he didn't try to like be
uh sixty years old, like adopting whatever cool posture a
(22:14):
twenty five year old would have adopted. He kind of,
in fact, when in his totally other, random, weird direction,
it was like, I'll play a cassio that sounds like
a four year old wrote the guitar graph the piano parts,
and I'll like dress in like, you know, he kind
of was like an old man before he was an
old man in a lot of ways. But I just wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, I want to go back to the I'm sorry
if I'm cutting you. O.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
No, no, no, no, that was a cul de sac
we didn't need to live in any No. No.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I like that because it reminded me, like I want
to go back to the Johnny Cash Yes, right, yes,
because I don't think he ever tried to work hard
to be relevant. He always did his thing, and in fact,
like and that's what you're kind of shooting for, right,
Like he's working, he's working with Rick Rubin and they're
doing a cover of Hurt, which was not even the
biggest song, but like it was. It was a from
(23:00):
the nineties by Nine Inch Nails, which is cool and
like on paper, that's so funny. He completely made it
his own's it took new meaning to the song and
it's it's not like it wasn't like a song that
was popular at the time that he was covering. It
was like an older song. He did it and it
charted and it blew up.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
He died soon after, which like add to the whole
story of it. It felt so relevant out of his
mouth that as it did when you know, what's his
name from Nine Inch Nails, Brent resn Yeah, Trent saying
it like as like a youth, and it's like that's
such a cool moment and and like, but I used
to do a joke. We're trying to gash starts covering
(23:45):
everything and he's like starships were made to fly, hands
up because we're so high like he just starts doing
NICKI Minaj. Like that's the difference, right there is like
that he wouldn't do that, like he wouldn't do well.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
But I'm on the floor. Oh but no, actually he did,
Actually he did. He did do it, and we're here
to premiere it for you now, so give this a check. No,
but in all, Siri, don't open up Siri. Sorry, not
real Siri, and all. Seriously, what you're saying is actually
(24:23):
the I think the spinal column in there, that's the
real thing. When Johnny Cash and Rick Rubin apparently who knows,
It's always like who knows the degree to which these
are real stories or their apocryphal but from what I
have heard and read or whatever. And I have a
lot of thoughts about Rick Rubin, which is for another conversation.
(24:44):
But I also think on some level, it's like, you know,
the track record is the track record. I think certain
things I've heard him say philosophically are a little like
I roll inducing to me. But but but when it
comes to this specific artist, in that specific relationship, I
think that they did some really incredible bull like career
defining shit together that I also think from a quality perspective,
(25:06):
you can have career defining shit that isn't actually very good,
and you can have career defining shit that is also like,
holy shit, that's incredible. He he heard and saw something
in Johnny Cash that Johnny Cash would almost like let
lie dormant for a very long time, kind of in
the service of like making a living. Like when he
finds Johnny Cash in the early nineties, he's like playing Branson, Missouri,
(25:31):
the Yakov Smirnoff place, which is kind of where like
a certain like it's like at the it's like the
you know, d List Broadway or Atlantic City Entertainment of
the Midwest. Johnny Cash is doing shows there where he's
like fucking opening for comics and stuff on Sunday afternoons,
half full houses. And he finds out he goes to
(25:52):
see him, and he's like, this shouldn't be what this
dude is doing. This guy's like an American legend, like iconic,
you know. And he brings him to La to play
a showcase somewhere forget where the Roxy or something, and
then he's like, all I want to do is put
a microphone in a room and you play some songs.
And he reconnects him to the spirit in the heart
of what it is that he does. Now they then
(26:14):
he curates a bunch of yes like interesting and at
times zeitgeist flirting covers over the arc of those four
or five albums for Johnny Cash to do. But what
they do that is the whole fucking point to me,
is they bring those covers into Johnny Cash's world. Johnny
Cash doesn't cover sound Garden by trying to sound like Soundgarden.
(26:37):
He doesn't cover nine Inch Nos. He doesn't even cover
like Will Oldham or Nick Cave or Leonard Cohen. When
he does those songs, which was to connect him to
a kind of like alternative songwriter world, it's Johnny Cash
singing those songs. Yeah, I think that you have to
have a certain gravity to pull that off. But I
would make the argument that a band like you two
(26:58):
should have that gravity, and I agree. And this isn't
a cover, this is a pastiche So we're being maybe
a little unfair. They're not doing a Ramone song. They're
doing a song that actually has nothing to do in
its information with the Ramones, but somehow just throwing his
name into it for credibility or something but.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
That is a muddy pastiche too, because it's like they're
referencing like themselves, because they're trying to sound like themselves
at this point, but they're like, who are we anymore?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
What is that? What does that mean? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Right, and that's hard and that gives me a little
bit when we've talked about this like some kind of
monster vibes where they're like Metallica's figuring out like what
Metallica is and.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I'm madly in anger with you. That's that's an all
timer for me. Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
That must be hard, like to be on your third
or fourth decade of a of a band, specifically, even
more so than as a songwriter, because songwriter you're always
it's it's you and you're doing your thing and you know,
like I'm sure that you hit your little you know
moments where it's hard to write, like writers block moments,
and but it's not like what do we sound like?
(28:13):
What are we trying to put out as this unit?
And I give them a chance in that this is
a hard feat and the time is hard too, like
remember like I remember, I remember Paul McCartney put out
a record around this time and he's like got a
ukulele and he's like and it's and it's like it
sounds exactly like a Paul McCartney song, but it also
(28:36):
doesn't because it's like him doing an impression of Paul McCartney.
And it's like, I remember, but I remember a friend
who is he was like a swim coach when I
was a kid, and I just you know, you kind
of grow up and you start to be like close
enough in age that you know your friends. But he's
still like twenty five years old.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
He's like, I love this Paul McCartney album, like I
made you, I burned you a copy of it was
so sweet, and he was he's a five fighter two
and he loved it, right yeah yeah, And you're like, okay,
like so so maybe this YouTube song does have an audience.
Now we should get to is that audience every single
(29:13):
person that has an iPhone?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well that yeah, And and I mean I also just
to just to I think this has been such a
fertile conversation. There's so much in it. I feel like
we could do like a four hour version of this
podcast just like kind of just kind of at the
like macro level, But I feel like yeah, and I
don't I only a band like you two. It's like,
(29:37):
how are they supposed to even there is no way
to have a clear understanding of what you are in
your fourth or fifth decade, and what you are is
how do you even know when you are impersonating yourself
or not at this point because you've become such a
publicly owned commodity in a way that it's a really
hard to separate, Like what is my mission statement? Forty
(30:00):
years into being bono? And what does it mean to
be Bono or bono in quotes? What does it mean
to be you two or U two end quotes? Someone
like Paul McCartney. I actually think it's amazing that he can.
That speaks to actually kind of like how gifted to
some degree and maybe the way media has changed so
many times over the arc of his career in life,
that guy hasn't been a normal person for sixty five years,
(30:24):
sixty two years whatever that even means by I'm using
those words or trust everyone can define them for themselves,
but like, so, how does Paul McCartney even know? I
actually think he deserves a lot of credit for making
a bunch of like weirdo explorations over the course of
his career into like what is it like if I
do this even the UKULELEI to be, like, what's it
like if I make a record where that's the primary instrument?
(30:47):
Oh that people talk about this radio headband? What would
it be like if I was produced by that guy? Oh,
Nirvana had a left handed guitarist that died. What would
it be like if I played live with the remaining
members of that band and just made some noise? Like
he try? Is interesting things anyway. One thing not even
Sir Paul has tried, as you mentioned, is me. Yeah, yeah,
(31:08):
it's true, not for a long time. That is great.
That's the end of the pod is forcing every iPhone.
I mean that is such. That is such a perfect
in its way distillation of everything we're talking about, like
talk about art versus commerce. Like whoever had to talk
them into that's a cool idea?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Oh, I feel like it was fully Bono's idea. And
then like Tim Cook or whoever, was like okay, and
like felt like he had to because it's like it
feels like that like that faux charity, right, It's like
it's like I'm gonna give everyone I'm gonna get I
think I'm gonna get everyone the album for free.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I like turning Bono into like a Dickenzie and Street urchin.
That's really really good.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Oh Franky Mark gave a Tim for free Sunday vice.
Su Uh.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
This is really just you know, so Irish, very Irish.
It's really whiff a way out. Yet I can't I
mean that's I feel like I can't live can't live out. Yeah,
I can't live while without which uh it'soy we hood
(32:28):
lim man as. Anyway, I don't even know what's to
be said about that. Whoever's idea was what was great.
There are moments where the culture surprises you. I kind
of wish sometimes it would surprise us more and about
more important things. But this was a moment where people
in almost ubiquity were like, what the fuck is this?
(32:48):
I don't know. I never met anybody that was like, no,
you know, it's so sick. When you two did that,
it was everybody biggest fans in the world.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
It was even that was kind of like wait what
because it was a weird time, right, because remember like
Radio had put out their album for free. It was
in rainbows and that was what you Oh yeah, pay
what you want. That was the first and that seemed
like it was like what year was that? That's that
was two thousand and seven, that was right, So yeah,
so it was like seven years later they were like, okay,
we'll do it now too.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
But it's the opposite. It's the polar opposite. That was, hey,
we're a huge band. We can go on tour whether
anybody buys this record or not, and gross millions of
dollars globally. So you know what what we think would
be cool is make this. It's always elective whether or
not you want to engage with music or not, but
(33:38):
now we're going to make it doubly elective. You can
engage with this, and if you don't want to pay
for it, you don't have to. This was like, I'm
sure you two got paid for that millions and million.
I'm sure it wasn't a fucking gradis thing between Apple
and you two, or Emi and Apple or there's no
(34:01):
world in which that was a free And it's like
like economics at fucking high school. It was like, there
is no such thing as a free lunch. There's no
such thing as a free you two record on an iPhone.
There's just no now when everyone involves fucking you two
at this point is a multinational corporation, but E AM,
I and Apple are like the biggest baddies out there,
(34:22):
you know, two of them, so to be like it was,
there's no way that that was like totally the opposite
of whatever. Fucking And that's what makes this thing so funny.
By the way, as we round out towards the end here,
there's nothing what is less punk rock mandating everyone with
(34:43):
this device gets your record on a given day because
the corporations say so. And then you try to like
fucking make it look like some magnanimous gesture and you
reference Joey Ramone in your song. I can't think of
something more like. There's layers of ludicrous out of touchness
at the heart of.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Letters of ludicrous out of touchness.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
That's why I'm a duchess and I'm not throwing away money.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yes, yes, yes, full sirk mabe full sirk.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Well, what's the verdict case at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I this was a tough one to give a chance
because you know, like culturally we all, like you said,
all hated this. So you know, so it's like it's
starting on such a wrong foot, but yeah, it's also
I finished that song and was like, I can't tell
you many lyrics. I can't tell you many moments that
(35:39):
impressed me. It just felt so stock.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Most importantly divorced from everything else we just talked about,
which I think is all I always don't think that
that's the most interesting and important conversation to have is
all of those conversations. But at the heart of it
is a song, and you're right. The thing that just
to even bring it back to that, it is a
five out of ten, and that's the worst place to be.
It's not a one, it's not a ten. It is
(36:04):
it sounds like they over That is the definition to
some degree of like polishing a turd. The production is unassailable.
They have all the oh, let's put the ooos in
for a hook, everything sounds great, the choice is made,
but there is nothing. The chorus comes and goes and
you're like, that was the chorus. There is nothing to
(36:25):
that song. It's a very milk toast song, and that
I certainly do not think is the miracle of Joey Ramone.
I guess lyrically he's talking about finding punk music and
it giving him a voice and a kind of spirit
of liberation, and that's great. But then there's a lot
of throwing shit in there that feels a little bit
like he did. It was like his first pass and
(36:45):
it was like print it anyway.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
You know, it's kind of crazy about this. How much
time we have we can let's rap with this. So
oh there was I was thinking about this because it's
trying to be a very similar thing with those big guitars.
The other day, I Good Times, Bad Times came on
by Zeppelin. Yeah, yeah, that's what is it called good Days,
(37:11):
Bad Times? Good Times?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's what this pot is called? Good Days, Bad Times?
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Good Times? Bad Times comes on and I'm like this still,
Like I feel it, like it. It's it's still impressive.
Everyone's working, they're they're doing their best, Like everyone's doing
something so fun and unique. It's heavy, it's it's interesting,
it's provocative, and it's like from the get go, the
(37:38):
tones are great, Like the drumming is unbelievable and like
it holds up. If I heard that on the radio
for the first time, I'd be like, whoa, what is this? Yeah,
it just starts like that, and that whole song is
twists and turns. It's like everyone's playing at ten and
not like you have to make every song be that
and every genre should be that. But if you are
(38:00):
swing for it, you should be like this is still
something to compare yourself to totally amaze some degree.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Maybe a fair thing to point out about that is,
unless I'm wrong, led Zeppelin's entire recorded output spans what
a decade they live in our consciousness, right, But Good
Times Bad Times, I still think is like from whatever
it's it's even if it was the last record, isn't
that like nineteen eighty or something, nineteen seventy eight?
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Now this, I think Good Times Bad Time is on
an earlier record, right, That's.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
What I mean. So like, yeah, they I guess you
could say the same thing about whatever was on you know,
Boy or War or The Unforgetable Fire, you know what
I mean? Like I think what I always have to
remind myself about these bands, even the Beatles, the Beatles,
led Zeppelin, certainly things like Nirvana where you know he
(38:50):
was a kid. It's like they didn't have to well,
the individual members of those bands, with the exception of
ones who've died do age into potential irrelevance or into
these embarrassments that are unavoidable. People that die when they're
twenty five thirty years old, they're ensconced for eternity in
that peak of cool, you know what I mean. They
(39:11):
didn't have to like degrade themselves further over forty years.
But I do think there is something to be said
for like, yeah, maybe if the spark's not there, like
take a little time, because even that early two thousands
U two stuff. Well, maybe I'll shut up after this,
Like I'm not saying that's my favorite music by them,
Vertigo and Beautiful Day and Stuck in a Moment, But
(39:32):
that's there's vitality in that music.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I think so too.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
There absolutely is. And you could still hear a band
who's having fun. You could still hear a band who's
like and maybe that's the last point. Maybe they tried
their experimental moment in the last part of the nineties
where he's like making pop, they're making dance music or
what they think dance music is electronic music. He's dressed
in a glitter suit with makeup and he's the devil.
And then it was like people were like, we just
wanted to sound like you too, So they make that
(39:56):
record where they sound like you too, and then it
seems like from that point for wh they've been sort
of cause playing you two to diminishing returns and that's
my chance times anti chance, and I'm not throwing my ship. Yeah,
(40:17):
I see you forever
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