September 11, 2025 • 42 mins
Kevin and Casey enter the forest of We Tigers to figure out if Animal Collective is genius, nonsense, or a group of toddlers let loose with Ableton. Kevin feels nostalgic for North Brooklyn noise rock, Casey hears a haunted ice cream truck, and together they ask: are we hearing art… or just being chased by experimental zoo animals?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Give it a chance, Give it a chance, Give it
a chance.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Good morning, give it a chance, Give it a chance,
Give it a chance, Give it a chance.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
Good morning, Give it a Do you want to give
it a chance?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Give it a chance, give it a chance.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Just give it a chance. It's your boy, hi keV Shopcase,
welcome to give it a chancing.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This is where we take a song people don't really
like and give it a chance.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
They should be Sometimes a lot of people like anyway,
but like people like us who are assholes just like
to find things to say that are all cool about it.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, I really don't know, like should we be setting
it up more like we hardly ever?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Like our show is.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, like at the top, I think what we just
we just assumed that the that the chancers are the chances.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
That sometimes I know on like, can we talk a
lot to talk about other podcasts on Spot? No? Oh okay,
Well let's just say that there's a pod I listened
to sometimes and it's comedic and you know.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's a guess it's just like what we do, like
you have to.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Guess the imagine that was this entire episode. You know,
Let's just say sometimes on this pod you know, there's
there's a little thing they discuss called the CBB bump.
Let's just say that. Let's just say that, okay, but
every once in a while, and that pod has been
around forever and a lot of people listen to it.
They take a moment at the top to explain what
(01:34):
the pod is, the conceit of the pod, So maybe
we should do that case. So it's probably a good
thing to do.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well. I have a question for you because last episode,
speaking of our chanswers, I did say that we would
do Chinese democracy. But I do think since we just
did a rock and roll from like a band.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, and you can come back.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Give it a break because because I do have a
band for this one, but it's expert mental, so I
thought that would be a nice change of people.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I think that's great.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
We had just been talking about a rock and roll
band that like lost its footing. I felt like it's
close to Chinese democracy, so I thought maybe we need
a little breaky pooh.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I'm totally cool with that. And there's Chinese democracy will
be there forever.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Always, it's always.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It took forever and it'll be there forever.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's I have a list of like chancy songs and
Chinese democracy has been towards the top for a very
long time.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I kind of amaze we haven't done it yet. Just
so people know, all Case scrolls through his listie hear it,
give it a chance. We listen to songs together that
often are like actually very almost actually always in their way,
are very successful songs. Songs that have in some way
(02:53):
touched the zeitgeist often have been like big hits, but
sometimes by we've done from age from literally you know,
a band that was concocted for commercials, when we did
one eight seven seven Cars for kids to the Beatles
and everything in between, stuff that's novelty, stuff that's not novelty,
stuff that might not know it's novelty anyway. And I
(03:14):
think what we're trying to find is they also tend
to be songs that to a different corner of the populace,
they're kind of like thought of as like cheesy or lightweight,
or you know, there's something about them that's almost like
a little disqualifying in spite of their maybe commercial success
and cultural success. So we kind of try to evaluate
(03:36):
the cultural imprint of that and give it a chance
on its own merits as a song or rip it
to shreds. No, we don't really rip shit to shreds.
I think we try to be pretty. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I think we try to be diplomatic.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
But we rip Diplo for sure, we did.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
We are diplomatic.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
We did that one Diplo Illmatic up where we're like, yes,
his remix of Illmatic just Diplo remix thing diplomatic, dipset
dipset dipp whoa.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
It's interesting that you said that we do. It's interesting
you you mentioned we do hits and big songs, because
this song, I would say, is not a hit. It's
the beginning of a band that has like so what
I wanted to do as a band that I think
has has like a lot of indie cred, gets a
(04:26):
lot of praise, but they're still slightly divisive, and I
think that some of their stuff, and especially my wife
is like this stuff sounds like a bunch of animals
making noises. Ah, and that's telling to the name of
the band animal collective.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
That is it.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Oh, I love this because this is great. This is great.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
It's very different. It's it's different because I think there
might be a lot of listeners also that aren't familiar
with their work at all, and the work is sort
of very different from album to album, and I wanted
to go back to an early one ye that's particularly
the least is like come on, but I think it
has a lot of value to it. But also I
agree is a little come on. And that song is
(05:08):
called We Tigers, which is also an animal, so it's
maybe it's pretty on the nose. So please, especially if
you don't know it, give We Tigers a listen by
the band Animal Collective and we are going to collect
our animal thoughts.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Here we go. All right, that's a journey.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I'm excited to hear what you have to say because
I don't know your relationship with this band at all.
When this came out, I was like, I love this, sure, sure,
you know so I feel close to it. But I'm
also you know, I love being challenged on something that
you're like, that's formative, that you're like, okay, cool. And
I've challenged by my wife not liking it. No great,
(05:55):
and she's open to some of it, you know. Of course,
of course I like also that certain listeners they might
be like this is complete garbage. Well, I want to
know your I trust you, I like your opinion on things.
I'm so excited for this.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
That's well what I think. What's cool about you choosing
this is actually, in a way it speaks to I
think what could be described as a potential achilles heel
of our show, which is, I would imagine there could
be a person that would listen to our show and
would not totally incorrectly or unfairly be like, oh so
(06:33):
these two like that we are a demographically like, there's
somebody that could be like these two white dudes from
Brooklyn who grew up you know, slight slight age difference,
but a lot of like indie rock exposure, let's say,
for lack and a lot of other things too, but
certainly like this is a podcast for what they like,
(06:53):
shit on popular things like I don't think that's what
we do. And I don't know, but I totally understand
why there might be somebody that would be like, you know, so, okay,
so you don't you don't like this? You know like this?
You know like this, but you like this? You know
what I mean? You know. I think for me the
(07:13):
truth is I don't have a depth of relationship to
Animal Collectives music. I think again, this is me lapsing
into what might be an achilles heel about me. And
I certainly if you ask any number of people in
my personal life and injected them with truths here them
they might say so. But like, I've always been interested
in the phenomena of things to a degree and like
(07:36):
kind of like what they do or don't mean. I
think this Animal Collective, I think is so indicative of
a very specific moment where it's kind of amazing, like
I hear that and I think of like Daniel Johnston
or I think of like where I'm like, there are
these moments in that song where like the thing that
you know, there's like these moments of like all of
a sudden, there's this like moment of like kaleidoscopic beach
(07:58):
Boy's harmony that happened in the background. There's these there's
this spirit of invention and this spirit of like who
gives a fuck? That's kind of like really appealing. But
also it's not totally chaotic. There's a clear collagists I
don't know the right word collage artists mind at play here.
(08:21):
These guys are definitely like there there's moments that are circular.
There's moments where things call back, there's moments there's lyrics
that flirt with total absurdity, and then there are lyrics
that actually have a kind of like sweetness or there's
something in there that's like a kind of like buried gem.
But I think I do think of those like early
Daniel Johnston, pre record label, pre certainly major label, but
(08:43):
like him in his house with a tape recorder, like
like these weird sounds in the background. There's this spirit
of creativity and explore and exploration that I also totally
think is nuts that this music got as big as
it did. That's what I've always thought about a band
like Animal Collective is not even about I don't even
(09:04):
know if I'm positioned to judge its relative quality on
some level, because there are things about it everything I've
ever liked that veered towards a kind of experimentalism. We've
talked about this at times, whether it's things in the
Beatles catalog, or things in a band like Radioheads catalog,
or the existence of a band like Nirvana, or even
a person like a Leonard Cohen or and Elliott Smith
that's really formal, but like they take things about the
(09:27):
form and tweak it. I think about like peak Wilco.
For me, the thing that unites all that stuff is
they're fucking songs with a capital S at the middle
of them. They're just songs that then someone like bent
something about them, and I know I'm a sucker in
my heart. I'm a sucker for that capital S song.
And so unsurprisingly, I think the first thing I remember
(09:49):
by Animal Collective. I'm sure I heard them before, but
was my Girls. I remember being on tour and someone
putting that on and being like, oh, this is the
new Animal Collective, and I was like, oh, they wrote
like a song like this is like a thing that
you could actually like sing along with. And what I
remember is that year we played with not with them,
excuse me, that is a misdirecting statement. We played Lollapalooza
(10:14):
and they were one of the other two hundred bands
on Lallapalooza, and I remember like watching their set and
it was the crowd. It was a huge crowd, like
a main stage huge crowd, and you could see that
eighty five percent of those people were waiting for that
song and when they were playing this stuff and all
(10:35):
of the other extrapolations of experimentation that almost remind me
more of like Stravinsky or something than of a pop band.
The audience was like, what the fuck am I watching?
You know, like it was real? It was And I
don't think that bothered them. It seemed like they were
kind of like inerd to that. That's kind of what.
So I don't really know what I'm saying about. Like
I enjoyed listening to that song, I also know that
(10:57):
I was like, Wow, this song's only two minutes and
forty three seconds long, it feels like it's six minutes
long because of some of it's the interior logic that
makes sense in it. When you're first engaging it, you're like,
it's not like a verse chorus, verse chorus versus bridge
whatever it's like. But I totally I think a band
like this, I think it's always amazing to me that
(11:20):
shit like this exists. There will always be a part
of me that wishes I was more inclined towards making
shit like that. And the truth is I've always wanted
like a dash of this as seasoning in a stew
that is more song forward.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
But yeah, because it takes a lot of confidence to
put this out. You know, that's a chance I give
it because this is.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Like one hundred percent yes.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, And it's like, you know, because part of it is,
you know, the there's there is that we talk about
like sort of that that indie like hipstery kind of opinion.
And you could say something like, oh, this is like
a ripoff of Smile by Brian Wilson and The Beach Boy,
you know what I mean, Like, right, that's that's the
question though, right, like as an influencer ripoff. But I
(12:05):
think that there's a lot going on under the surface,
which is like fun like they had especially at this
time with this record, like their lyrics like left a
lot of mystery. There's a lot of stuff that's about
you know, and this is some of this is like
the more you dig, the more you the more mystery
you find in a fun way. And you know, there's
just they always kind of talk about it's that it's
(12:29):
that sweet spot between being a child and like you know,
having to become an adult that he always like play
like we're one of the guys, always kind of plays
with lyricism like that, Yeah, and I like that he
doesn't do it over the head. You know, it's just
little BIPs and bobs, like little clues. Yeah, And I
think that's kind of fun and mysterious. Those are things
I like, really give a chance. But then also I
(12:52):
think that it's yeah, like it's it's I think they
become better at making songs and this has that hook.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Right totally. No no, yeah, no, no, no, no no, right, that's.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Fun and that's influenced from like I mean that that
influence can come from.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Which, by the way, that melody that when you sing it,
like that's separate from the song, separate.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
From the words like an ice cream truck or something.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
No it, but it also is a specific it's it's
a it's some Oh my god, I like it's. I
think it's from like like like Twilight Time or some
like fifties almost like Satin Glove do wop song. I'm
(13:36):
gonna have to look this up afterwards or try to
see if I can find it.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It does sound like a like a like a Latin
car horn.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yes, and that comes from something, which makes me wonder
if this was almost like if the inclusion of that
and the challenge to write lyrics to it could have
even almost been like an in joke in the band,
like if someone's like, yeah, you know that melody, Like
what if we wrote words to that and made it
the chorus of the song.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, you're right, Like it's fun. It's fun that that's
there too. It goes more into that mystery. Yeah, I
will say like and this brings us back to that
Beatles Revolution number nine, which is like it's tough to
put this out all the time. There's some songs on
this album that I love, and this is an album
that like I'll play all the way through.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
The songs or which ya?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
And there were songs that I think are in some
ways more indicative who they become that I was toying
with playing. There were some songs that I felt like
are easier to listen to. This was like right in
the middle because it's like it's got that drum. Yes,
that's that you either love or hate. Like it's like
it's propulsive.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
There's a persistence to it that actually, in a weird way,
I think grounds it. I don't sorry. I what's interesting
is I feel like I have a tendency to sometimes
build up something like an animal collective song to almost
like like thinking it's going to be like fifty percent
more experimental than it is, which maybe that sounds crazy,
but where I'm like, oh, this is going to be
(15:16):
like unlistenable, and it's like, no, it's not unlistenable. It's
like it kind of sounds like people took mushrooms and
like just was like writing a bunch of like like
a stream of consciousness and then it was sculpted. That's
not an unsculpted song. There are like things that happen
that are that become like there are events, and there's
even events that repeat. I think if you're like looking
(15:40):
too deeply from meaning in it, I think that you
are sort of maybe doing yourself a disservice, meaning like
if you need the song to be like narrativized. But
I think what you're talking about, which is a more
overarching thing which reminds me of something like a writer
like Stephen Malkmus or something like that, especially earlier in
Pavement or probably to a degree even like certain Yeah,
(16:03):
that generation of of indie rock songwriters or whatever, like
people in Sonic Youth or whatever. It really was more
like Jackson Pollock than like some sort of like renaissance
you know, still Life or something hyper like it was,
or maybe Picasso in there a little bit too, But
I think I think of that whole. This approach to
lyric writing is way more like you're throwing splashes of
(16:28):
paint and it's very vivid, and I do think when
you step away from it you can find resonance and meaning.
But if you were like looking to find like the
fully defined outline of a woman or something and it
or you know, you might be like, I don't see that,
but that's not what you're supposed to see. So I
also think that success of something like this depends I
(16:50):
guess with all things, it depends on the ears of
the beholder, but also like what they were setting out
to do, I think a band like this is very successful,
just like right said Fred was in what they were
setting out to do. Like if you hit the mark
with what you were setting out to do, there is
a version of that that will always be successful, whether
or not I like it or not. But what we're
(17:12):
talking about is what we think.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It is kind of strange now that you say it,
Like painting had to become experimental, right like with the
advent of it, like of a camera you saw, you know,
and photography getting bigger and bigger. The job of a
painter kind of no longer became portraits, right, or it
still was, but you can have more fun now.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Basically yeah, and expressionism all that came at the same time,
and you know, you get to your Matisse, your picassos
Kandinsky's like all that stuff, and that was what was
popular and then it's just gotten more, not more experimental,
but experimental in different ways, like mixed media things like that.
It is strange that music hasn't really followed that. Of
course there's always experimental, but like the mainstream, right, and
(17:59):
it's not an it's not a one for one, but
it is strange. But I mean, and maybe maybe I'm wrong,
and maybe like if you took a person from like,
you know, the nineteen fifties and you brought them now
and you played them an arian A Grande song, they'd
be like, what is going on with this? Like sonically,
we're so.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Sonically for sure, go finish your thought. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Sonically, I think there's probably like you know, there's so
much like you know, you know, pads like like keyboards.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
And just information.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like you know, if you put
on like Scizza or a person from the nineteen forties,
it would blow their mind no matter what. But sonically.
But I agree though that I think what you were
going to say, I agree with what you were going
to say. I agree with what I think you were
going to say. Just where was it going to be?
That it this? It's just a straightforward song.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
What I think the thing, what I think maybe you're
leading me to think about, is the role of popular
music in culture versus the role of something like especially
like maybe music you're talking about like the relative rates
of evolution and experimentalism in these forms. Maybe pop music
is less like new modes. I'm maan sure there are
(19:11):
papists who would say that I don't mean this as
a degradation. I mean it more as a contextualization. I
think for every like critic or or you know, sort
of like a forward thinking whatever, kind of like student
of this shit that would make the argument that like, no, dude,
like there is like crazy experimentalism and like the studio
(19:32):
work of like Justin Bieber now or something, and there
is like the production wise and with respect to how
things are layered, And but I kind of feel like
maybe the role of mainstream music is more like the
paintings of a beautiful sunset or or or like you know,
boats and a dock at your dentist's office than it
(19:54):
is to be like like, I don't think or I
don't think that most people are going to popular music
for experiments. Listen. I think most people are going to
popular music for like something to have on while they
do the dishes, or to dance to on a Saturday night.
And I think the moments were a thing that does
become super popular but is formally challenging in some way,
or I don't know, thinking of things that become Kendrick
(20:16):
Lamar played the Super Bowl. Now there are things in
Kendrick Lamar's catalog. I'm not the fucking most like died
in the wool hip hop head that I can tell
you all that, But I know from listening to like
a bunch of other charting hip hop artists and listening
to like all of a Kendrick Lamar album, there's moments
(20:36):
on a Kendrick Lamar album that sound like they could
be on the radio. And then there's moments on a
Kendrick Lamar album where I'm like, this is like, you
know what I thought listening to kid A in two thousand,
but in this sort of like popular and again the
guy from Aphex Twin thought radio had sucked when they
put kid A out and was like, why is everyone
shooting themselves about this? Like people are making more interesting
(20:58):
square push or and whatever or else, like there's so
much more interesting versions of this, but that's not the
shit that's ever gonna be like on the radio or MTV.
Animal Collective was like a weird bridge. Also, culture and
media were changing yet again when they came, but they
didn't have the career like Vampire Weekend has had. You
weren't like it wasn't like you know what I mean
(21:20):
Vampire Weekends like and even they're like an idiosyncratic entity
compared to like I guess Coldplay now or imagine Dragons
or something. They're not the same thing. But I also
don't think Animal Collective and Vampire Weekend are the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah yeah, And going back to art, maybe it's more
like a Jeff Kuhon situation right where it's like he's
not doing anything that's crazy experimental, but he's there's there's
obviously you know, a team and talent behind that and
like to make these pieces and they are outlandish in
some way, but you wouldn't be like that's experimental, but
(21:55):
it you know, like just as to bring it back
to like the one for one, because yeah, yeah, there's
still commercialism and selling things and putting things in front
of people.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I just talked for a long time, so I feel
like I don't want to keep talking because what you
just yeah, I mean all of it has Look you're like,
all of this stuff exists in a marketplace, and there's
a difference maybe between like the marketplace and like late
stage capitalism. The marketplace has existed forever. Whatever it is
that we're suffering now is a really different thing for
(22:28):
ninety percent of the people on earth. But it's not
like animal collective they like. I also think. I think
about an artist like this and like they were, it's inseparable,
unseparable whatever. You cannot separate it to me from like
the moment and the context in which they came to fruition.
This is like a story of art damaged kids in
(22:48):
North Brooklyn in the early to mid two thousands, just
like trying shit in an environment where there's a bunch
of other people trying shit and it gave birth to
a million bands, a very spirit range of bands, but
all of whom we're very much trying to like exist
in the marketplace. Which is not a negative or a pejorative.
It just is true. Everybody that's evered. I sell my records.
(23:12):
I want people to buy tickets to the shows. There's
another degree to it, though, which I think of when
the art world comes into it, or when like strata
in like when an indie band becomes a like successful band.
That's like where the marketplace all of a sudden becomes
something else where. It becomes like a sign of status
to have a Kuon's in your living room or to
(23:36):
know and and that stuff. There's something in there. I
guess you could fucking grow all the way back to
like the Medici and whatever else, but there's something in
there where. It's like there's a Warhol moment in there
where it suddenly becomes like you know what I mean.
Like I do think that there's like some weird black
hole or wormhole or some other fucking thing I'm not
(23:56):
going to get right that something has to travel through
to go from like kids in rehearsal spaces on like
North Forth and Kent in two thousand and five, Like,
what would it sound like if we did this to
like the stage at Lallapalooza, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Like the late night shows? Yes, And did you ever
see this? There was sort of this one around Animal
Collective was on. I just found the clip of it,
but I don't know what show it was. But anyway,
they were on a late night show and someone put
on the clothes captioning and there's two things in parentheses
(24:30):
and it said woman vocalizing, man speaking backwards.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Oh dude, I have seen that. That Still, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I love that For people who don't know, there's there's
no woman in the group, and it's just I love
man the.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Best of our knowledge, no one speaking backwards. It's not
the little guy from the David Lynch movies or whatever. Yeah, yeah,
the man from another place.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, so funny. I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
And look, that's the thing where I don't know, I
don't even know if any of what I'm saying resonates
makes sense. I trust that it does. On some level.
I feel like they're they're making no bones about wanting
to be like this is an art project. It's an
art project that but I do think there is a
(25:28):
color in their art project. It's not like animal collectives,
Like you can't identify the data that goes into it.
You can totally hear. It's so funny that thing you
brought up about Smile or the Beach Boys. Then the
like like I remember like Mike Fatom, who played drums
in our band Forever, showing me what pointing out on
some of those records that like sometimes there's just like
(25:49):
a ride being hit one, two, three, four for like
eight minutes in a song. That's what's happening to like,
it's like both and then it becomes like hypnotic or
kind of like there is an aspect of it that
almost becomes this swirl, but it's just from the rhythmic.
It's like a metronome, but a metronome that's being hit
(26:10):
on a ride symbol. That's kind of what that propulsive
tom drum thing feels like to me? Is it both
but also like that sort of feels like that gives
it that brings it into the realm of sort of
like traditional song in a weird way. It's just like
somebody hitting four on the floor on a tom drum.
That's in a million things. Maybe they don't do it
for three minutes in a million things. It might be
(26:32):
like the verse and then the snarrow come in or
whatever else, but the data is all and that pastiche
lyrical malk miss that thing where it's like cutting up,
you know, Tom Waits. Tom Waits talked about like how
do you write your songs? I opened the newspaper with
my wife and we cut up lines from the newspaper
(26:53):
and glue them in different orders or whatever on a page.
But then it's like everything iterates and they're definitely doing
a thing that's like, you know, they're taking all of
that stuff and putting it in a blender, and what
comes out is also like whatever they were bound by
what's the word technologically, like how they weren't in a
studio with Capitol Records money making Smile for five years
(27:15):
or whatever. They were like kids in a fucking room
somewhere in North Brooklyn at this point. And that's part
of what makes it fun and adventurous. I guess it's
like I don't even know if what you're looking for
from like give it, to give this a chance, or
to disqualify it. If it's like where's the song? Well,
then you're going to disqualify it. But if it's like, yes,
(27:36):
it succeed on its own terms. I think something like
this is like, yeah, that's it's cool. It's there. They're
doing what they want.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
You know, what they do really well is you know
how it's very different. But you know how in like
club music, there's this sort of patience that you know,
people who like are go to clubs like they're waiting
for like a beat to build and then to drop,
and there's that, you know, there's that moment that they
wait for over and over again. And part of that
is psychedelics or just or or you know, drugs like yeah,
(28:07):
making that feel cooler, and they wait for those moments.
And then so then when they go listen to music
at home, it still reminds them of when they've been
at a club. Yes, they still get right. I don't
collective does that a lot from their career. For I've
noticed they have a lot of like these patient moments,
and sometimes it's like they will make something a little
bit more atonal and a little bit more dissonant, and
(28:30):
then they'll they'll resolve right, like and they have done
that really well across the years. And then like even
that My Girls song and that record in general, they
were influenced by a lot of that stuff. There's a
lot of like building intension and then release, and this
is like a small example of it. Like when when
you know the song a few times and then it
gets to that like it's the drum stops, it's.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Like, you know, a moment, it's an event.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, And it's a microcosm I think of like what
they do well. So it's kind of fun on their
first album that they they hit they hit that, and
that they refine that over time. So I do think
like if if for people who are hearing this the
first time and they're like hearing whoa, whoa, whoa, yea
moments like that, Like I know Lisa doesn't love that,
(29:16):
but she does like some of their later work and
like it's it's so crazy to hear. Like the reason
I thought of this is like that guy Panda Bear,
who's one of the Animals, put out a record and
it's really straightforward yeah right, and it's and it's like
the most straightforward thing he's done and still like has
moments of experimental you know, songwriting and structures and sounds,
(29:42):
but it's compared to this, it's and and I and
again I don't think that this is too wacky.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
But I think you're you're pointing out something. Yeah, it's
like that also indicates the personalities in a band too,
and that's what makes a band inherently some like most
of the time more more interesting than just like a
guy is like, you have this range of ideas in
the room, and maybe there's like one guy and I
(30:10):
don't know them personally, I don't, you know, but it's
like I wonder if there's like I'm sure there's shared
vocabulary between all of them, but I also wonder if
there's like one guy an animal collective who's like more
the like you know, surfing us, a beach boys guy,
and then there's one guy who's more the like whatever
the drown Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. And I think, you know,
(30:32):
and I do think that what you talked about earlier,
that that what you just said made me reflect on too,
is like I don't know, I'd like to think someone
might give it a chance, just because for three minutes
it's like this isn't like what you're going to hear
anywhere else you move through your day probably and like
most spaces, you're not gonna be like a grocery store
and this is gonna come on. You're not going to
(30:54):
be like in your dentist's office and this is gonna
come on.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
That would be fun cool.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
I'm sure there are some dentists' offices in North Brooklyn
where this might come on, or at least there were,
But I do think that, like it's funny. I remember
when I was my niece, who's now like a grown
up on nurse and like, you know, a person, but
when she was like a kid kid, we were watching
the Grammys once at my brother's house and it was
the year that Radiohead was nominated for uh in Rainbows
(31:21):
for a bunch of Stuff, and they performed and they
did fifteen step with like a with like a like
a brass band or something, and I remember I was like, oh,
this is amazing. Like I still at that point, even
with the band as big as them, we'd been on
Capitol and whatever else, there's still a point where I
was like, it's kind of crazy. Whenever you see something
like that in a context like that still feels weird
(31:44):
to see. And I remember my niece was like, you know, eight,
and it ended, and she was like I hated that,
you know, and remember being like, oh, yeah, that's interesting,
Like she's got no it's not like she's reading Pitchfork
or whatever. She just was like watching that and was.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Like a zero one hundred, Yeah this sucks.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Where's the song? But also there's something I feel like
when my my daughter would hear like Daniel Johnston the
thing you talked about earlier that was about like there's
a childlike thing in this music that I do think
and that isn't like I don't know I think about
that like you know, Calvin Johnson, Beat Happening, all that
(32:23):
K record stuff, definitely the Beach Boys. Parts of Brian
Wilson's brain, there is this like, yeah, thing that's like
about a kind of like because I think maybe it's
like a sense of like silliness, playfulness, abandon and also
like not self consciousness. That's what it is that I
(32:44):
think is like to me, that's that's always to be
given a chance because the world's going to try to
strip that out of you as much as possible, as
often as possible.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
This is a kid song. You know, I didn't think
about that, but it's like, if I actually want to
play this for my three and a half year old
daughter and see what she thinks, because it's so it
feels like something that like, you know, Peter Pan and
the Lost Boys would make or something.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
That she could make up in some way, like and
I know, not to disparage animals, you know what, I know.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think they would say I think they might say
that too, or because it's very simple and they are
talented musicians, but of course they're like, let's like they're
intentionally making this simple and it's it's really Yeah, it
is so kid like and not kid like in the
way that but similar to that, like they might be giants,
like just can appeal to children because some of it,
(33:34):
especially later, they started making songs for kids. But like
I put on Flood recently just to see what she
thought of it, and she didn't react much, and I
was like, these are kid songs in some ways, like
a lot of them feel like what a kid song
sounds like, even though I don't think at the time
they were really trying to do that.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Yeah, it's almost like the there's a kind of like
there's something about the earnestness of it, and I don't
mean earnest like like there's different definitions of that word.
Not not Yeah, I don't mean like goes to camp.
I meant it more like Ernest goes to space. No,
I don't know is did they ever go to space?
In the Earnest verse?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Not yet?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Get on that, get to the people, you know, right,
Ernest seven? Did Jim Varney pass Is he resting in power?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
He passed on the project?
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Oh he did? You see? So? Yeah? Yeah, yeah he's dead,
but he definitely passed on the project.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
You were saying there, there's yeah, there's an earnestness, there's an.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Openness and like I feel like the way they sing,
I feel like I'm thinking of like bird even like
their biggest hit, like Birdhouse in Your Soul. There's something
about it that it also makes me feel like stand
by r EM. There's only like one or two genetic
code pieces of code missing between that Birdhouse and your Soul,
and like stand by r E M. There's this like
you know, and I feel like that to me always
(34:55):
totally yes. And you're like, did you write that nu
Stanbul not constantinople it all?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that part and that particle man,
that's like a D eight eight eighty, like it's similar
to this song and it's like it's so catchy, but
it feels like Date eight eighty. I love it like
it's it, you know, and I don't know, Yeah, it's
it's fun.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I wanted to.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Ask you, though, like, is there a record of yours
that you feel is the most experimental I ever thought
of what it probably is, but I wanted to see
in your opinion.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I mean, I think that when I listened, like I said,
when I listen to music that's actually I know that
my music is so song forward and so like kind
of like indebted to really a group of like a
half dozen or so, in particular, a half dozen or
so or ten artists and maybe like a handful of
(35:49):
like subgenres within a scene, a loose scene. I think it.
I think it depends how you define those words. Like
I think there's a breadth of styles represented on a
record like Brother's Blood. I think that there's a conscious
choice to kind of we tried to make some like
kind of dense sort of like a lot of like
(36:12):
MIDI information inside of three and four minute songs on
something like Concrete and Clouds, which is like a folk
rock record, but there's these like weird sort of like
spookinesses in it and some synth exploration. I feel like
the last record we made is the most like we
were intentionally, Chris Brocco and I it was like we
were highlighting those records like It's a Wonderful Life by
(36:35):
Sparkle Horse, What's the one that has a Soft Bullet
and by Flaming Lips, Ghost is Born by Wilco White album.
Not that I think we reached those qualitative heights, but
I mean, like really that the pinnacle for us of
like song records that then took the songs and like
pulled them in weird directions. But I also think all
(36:55):
my songs are pretty much rooted around like you know,
a guy playing guitar and some instruments behind him.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
So but you're you're saying that nothing's real, so nothing's wrong.
It's like it feels that's the one that you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
That right now. It does to me. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I was actually going to say that I think there
are moments on bubble Gum right totally right that, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I got confused. Pull.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I guess think that one bubble Gum has like I
think I remember you talking to you and that you
felt often that you were you were pushed into directions
or even the rest of your band was pushed into
directions to work, to do something, you know, to push
a little bit more into the bag, or something you know,
(37:36):
which is well, I think that record, get that from
all your producers.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Though, well, I think that record was a genre the thing.
Maybe the reason I don't think of that record on
some level as experimental is not an accurate reflection, but
it's because it is a genre record, Like it's totally like,
let's make our version of a punk album. And so
I think there's a degree to which I actually thought
there were aspects of that record where it was like
(38:00):
very clear the colors we were to paint in, if
that makes sense. But I also think there are things
within those songs and within that color palette. We made
that record with Jesse from Brand New, and there was
things about him being like such a song person but
also such like an accomplished loud rock band person with
(38:22):
like again in that band, there's these moments of experimentalism,
especially from like two thousand and six seven forward or onward,
that I think, like him being in the mix on
that that was certainly what was being pushed was like, yo,
like how do we make this x percent crazier like
with the with sonic instrument presentation?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, like fiscal Cliff right or certainly, and what's the
one that the Stranberg instrumental.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Oh copy Bara?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, yeah, those are two pretty like like I remember
where and where I was when I heard fiscal Cliff
for the first time, and I was like thrilled by it,
and I was like this is so at the time
it felt very different. But well that's eon of what
you know, what you like, and who I know of you.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
That goes into a great way to maybe tie this
all up, which is like, again, all of these words
are subjective. They mean things, but they're subjective. Like so
in context a song like fiscal Cliff and if you
don't have any I mean, I guess people listen to this,
maybe a bunch of from do know it. I'm sure
there are a bunch that don't know our music. But
there's that's a song that almost like in some places
(39:30):
sounds like it could be a Dead Kennedy song, in
some place it sounds like it could be a Pearl
Jam song, and some place it sounds like it could
be ye, and then there are aspects of that that
are like, why that's experimental. I don't know if that's
an experimental song. Why that's an experimental song? In hour
Slash my catalog is that it takes a color I
(39:51):
might have painted in for two lines or for twenty
seconds in a song, and it pegs it to the
red and lets it go there for three minutes. And
so that becomes then an exploration of what does it
mean to experiment? Is it that everything? Is it like
the most radical sounding or is it just like a
(40:12):
departure for that artist. Like if I made a song
tonight that sounded like a quiet storm R and B
song and I played it with the straight face and
I wasn't being cute or funny about it, that would
be experimental, even if it sounds like Luther Vandros and
not like John Cale or something.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
So that's and it's also up to the listener too.
That's of course finishes the listener or the person that
goes to finishes all art, right, And so yeah, that's
interesting too because they'll be like, no, this is just
Luther Vandros.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Or like totally, like if I said to some people
if I was like, yo, this is a punk record,
there might be some people who listened to Bubble going back,
what are you talking about? Like punk? To whom? You
know what I mean? So all of those things. But
I think what, at the very least, at the bare minimum,
I think that a band like Animal Collective invites this
(41:02):
kind of depth of consideration. And again that's objective because
there may be people who listen to this episode and
be like, well, that was you know, fucking dog shit
alf No, never listen to that again. But to me,
it like prompts. It prompts discussion, It prompts you you
want to like pick some things apart, and also there's
(41:22):
some things that you just want to like let u
let the mystery sit. There's something cool about that too,
Like I don't need to know everything. It's kind of
cool to have to guess a little bit. But that's
my that's that's my.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
And that's that's our take on Chinese democracy.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
Folks, gn R hope you enjoyed it. Axel, don't sue us.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
We're gonna do that song. We're gonna do that.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
A song should do it as a season. The whole
record it's just the name too, It's insane.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
We're gonna We're all get it.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
I too.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I have to just say that Bill Burr quote about
like by the time that he put it out music,
it had changed three times.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I like, how much from building this up, Like someday
you will hear.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Us today, guys.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, yeah, Well we'll get to it one day, guys.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
But not today, no chance. Chancers.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Thanks for listenings.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Best of days. Go listen to all
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Of those experimental Kat songs.
Give it a chance, Give it a chance, Give it
a chance.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Good morning, give it a chance, Give it a chance,
Give it a chance, Give it a chance.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
Good morning, Give it a Do you want to give
it a chance?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Give it a chance, give it a chance.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Just give it a chance. It's your boy, hi keV Shopcase,
welcome to give it a chancing.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This is where we take a song people don't really
like and give it a chance.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
They should be Sometimes a lot of people like anyway,
but like people like us who are assholes just like
to find things to say that are all cool about it.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, I really don't know, like should we be setting
it up more like we hardly ever?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Like our show is.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, like at the top, I think what we just
we just assumed that the that the chancers are the chances.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
That sometimes I know on like, can we talk a
lot to talk about other podcasts on Spot? No? Oh okay,
Well let's just say that there's a pod I listened
to sometimes and it's comedic and you know.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's a guess it's just like what we do, like
you have to.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Guess the imagine that was this entire episode. You know,
Let's just say sometimes on this pod you know, there's
there's a little thing they discuss called the CBB bump.
Let's just say that. Let's just say that, okay, but
every once in a while, and that pod has been
around forever and a lot of people listen to it.
They take a moment at the top to explain what
(01:34):
the pod is, the conceit of the pod, So maybe
we should do that case. So it's probably a good
thing to do.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well. I have a question for you because last episode,
speaking of our chanswers, I did say that we would
do Chinese democracy. But I do think since we just
did a rock and roll from like a band.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, and you can come back.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Give it a break because because I do have a
band for this one, but it's expert mental, so I
thought that would be a nice change of people.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I think that's great.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
We had just been talking about a rock and roll
band that like lost its footing. I felt like it's
close to Chinese democracy, so I thought maybe we need
a little breaky pooh.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I'm totally cool with that. And there's Chinese democracy will
be there forever.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Always, it's always.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It took forever and it'll be there forever.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's I have a list of like chancy songs and
Chinese democracy has been towards the top for a very
long time.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I kind of amaze we haven't done it yet. Just
so people know, all Case scrolls through his listie hear it,
give it a chance. We listen to songs together that
often are like actually very almost actually always in their way,
are very successful songs. Songs that have in some way
(02:53):
touched the zeitgeist often have been like big hits, but
sometimes by we've done from age from literally you know,
a band that was concocted for commercials, when we did
one eight seven seven Cars for kids to the Beatles
and everything in between, stuff that's novelty, stuff that's not novelty,
stuff that might not know it's novelty anyway. And I
(03:14):
think what we're trying to find is they also tend
to be songs that to a different corner of the populace,
they're kind of like thought of as like cheesy or lightweight,
or you know, there's something about them that's almost like
a little disqualifying in spite of their maybe commercial success
and cultural success. So we kind of try to evaluate
(03:36):
the cultural imprint of that and give it a chance
on its own merits as a song or rip it
to shreds. No, we don't really rip shit to shreds.
I think we try to be pretty. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I think we try to be diplomatic.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
But we rip Diplo for sure, we did.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
We are diplomatic.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
We did that one Diplo Illmatic up where we're like, yes,
his remix of Illmatic just Diplo remix thing diplomatic, dipset
dipset dipp whoa.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
It's interesting that you said that we do. It's interesting
you you mentioned we do hits and big songs, because
this song, I would say, is not a hit. It's
the beginning of a band that has like so what
I wanted to do as a band that I think
has has like a lot of indie cred, gets a
(04:26):
lot of praise, but they're still slightly divisive, and I
think that some of their stuff, and especially my wife
is like this stuff sounds like a bunch of animals
making noises. Ah, and that's telling to the name of
the band animal collective.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
That is it.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Oh, I love this because this is great. This is great.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
It's very different. It's it's different because I think there
might be a lot of listeners also that aren't familiar
with their work at all, and the work is sort
of very different from album to album, and I wanted
to go back to an early one ye that's particularly
the least is like come on, but I think it
has a lot of value to it. But also I
agree is a little come on. And that song is
(05:08):
called We Tigers, which is also an animal, so it's
maybe it's pretty on the nose. So please, especially if
you don't know it, give We Tigers a listen by
the band Animal Collective and we are going to collect
our animal thoughts.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Here we go. All right, that's a journey.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I'm excited to hear what you have to say because
I don't know your relationship with this band at all.
When this came out, I was like, I love this, sure, sure,
you know so I feel close to it. But I'm
also you know, I love being challenged on something that
you're like, that's formative, that you're like, okay, cool. And
I've challenged by my wife not liking it. No great,
(05:55):
and she's open to some of it, you know. Of course,
of course I like also that certain listeners they might
be like this is complete garbage. Well, I want to
know your I trust you, I like your opinion on things.
I'm so excited for this.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
That's well what I think. What's cool about you choosing
this is actually, in a way it speaks to I
think what could be described as a potential achilles heel
of our show, which is, I would imagine there could
be a person that would listen to our show and
would not totally incorrectly or unfairly be like, oh so
(06:33):
these two like that we are a demographically like, there's
somebody that could be like these two white dudes from
Brooklyn who grew up you know, slight slight age difference,
but a lot of like indie rock exposure, let's say,
for lack and a lot of other things too, but
certainly like this is a podcast for what they like,
(06:53):
shit on popular things like I don't think that's what
we do. And I don't know, but I totally understand
why there might be somebody that would be like, you know, so, okay,
so you don't you don't like this? You know like this?
You know like this, but you like this? You know
what I mean? You know. I think for me the
(07:13):
truth is I don't have a depth of relationship to
Animal Collectives music. I think again, this is me lapsing
into what might be an achilles heel about me. And
I certainly if you ask any number of people in
my personal life and injected them with truths here them
they might say so. But like, I've always been interested
in the phenomena of things to a degree and like
(07:36):
kind of like what they do or don't mean. I
think this Animal Collective, I think is so indicative of
a very specific moment where it's kind of amazing, like
I hear that and I think of like Daniel Johnston
or I think of like where I'm like, there are
these moments in that song where like the thing that
you know, there's like these moments of like all of
a sudden, there's this like moment of like kaleidoscopic beach
(07:58):
Boy's harmony that happened in the background. There's these there's
this spirit of invention and this spirit of like who
gives a fuck? That's kind of like really appealing. But
also it's not totally chaotic. There's a clear collagists I
don't know the right word collage artists mind at play here.
(08:21):
These guys are definitely like there there's moments that are circular.
There's moments where things call back, there's moments there's lyrics
that flirt with total absurdity, and then there are lyrics
that actually have a kind of like sweetness or there's
something in there that's like a kind of like buried gem.
But I think I do think of those like early
Daniel Johnston, pre record label, pre certainly major label, but
(08:43):
like him in his house with a tape recorder, like
like these weird sounds in the background. There's this spirit
of creativity and explore and exploration that I also totally
think is nuts that this music got as big as
it did. That's what I've always thought about a band
like Animal Collective is not even about I don't even
(09:04):
know if I'm positioned to judge its relative quality on
some level, because there are things about it everything I've
ever liked that veered towards a kind of experimentalism. We've
talked about this at times, whether it's things in the
Beatles catalog, or things in a band like Radioheads catalog,
or the existence of a band like Nirvana, or even
a person like a Leonard Cohen or and Elliott Smith
that's really formal, but like they take things about the
(09:27):
form and tweak it. I think about like peak Wilco.
For me, the thing that unites all that stuff is
they're fucking songs with a capital S at the middle
of them. They're just songs that then someone like bent
something about them, and I know I'm a sucker in
my heart. I'm a sucker for that capital S song.
And so unsurprisingly, I think the first thing I remember
(09:49):
by Animal Collective. I'm sure I heard them before, but
was my Girls. I remember being on tour and someone
putting that on and being like, oh, this is the
new Animal Collective, and I was like, oh, they wrote
like a song like this is like a thing that
you could actually like sing along with. And what I
remember is that year we played with not with them,
excuse me, that is a misdirecting statement. We played Lollapalooza
(10:14):
and they were one of the other two hundred bands
on Lallapalooza, and I remember like watching their set and
it was the crowd. It was a huge crowd, like
a main stage huge crowd, and you could see that
eighty five percent of those people were waiting for that
song and when they were playing this stuff and all
(10:35):
of the other extrapolations of experimentation that almost remind me
more of like Stravinsky or something than of a pop band.
The audience was like, what the fuck am I watching?
You know, like it was real? It was And I
don't think that bothered them. It seemed like they were
kind of like inerd to that. That's kind of what.
So I don't really know what I'm saying about. Like
I enjoyed listening to that song, I also know that
(10:57):
I was like, Wow, this song's only two minutes and
forty three seconds long, it feels like it's six minutes
long because of some of it's the interior logic that
makes sense in it. When you're first engaging it, you're like,
it's not like a verse chorus, verse chorus versus bridge
whatever it's like. But I totally I think a band
like this, I think it's always amazing to me that
(11:20):
shit like this exists. There will always be a part
of me that wishes I was more inclined towards making
shit like that. And the truth is I've always wanted
like a dash of this as seasoning in a stew
that is more song forward.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
But yeah, because it takes a lot of confidence to
put this out. You know, that's a chance I give
it because this is.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Like one hundred percent yes.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, And it's like, you know, because part of it is,
you know, the there's there is that we talk about
like sort of that that indie like hipstery kind of opinion.
And you could say something like, oh, this is like
a ripoff of Smile by Brian Wilson and The Beach Boy,
you know what I mean, Like, right, that's that's the
question though, right, like as an influencer ripoff. But I
(12:05):
think that there's a lot going on under the surface,
which is like fun like they had especially at this
time with this record, like their lyrics like left a
lot of mystery. There's a lot of stuff that's about
you know, and this is some of this is like
the more you dig, the more you the more mystery
you find in a fun way. And you know, there's
just they always kind of talk about it's that it's
(12:29):
that sweet spot between being a child and like you know,
having to become an adult that he always like play
like we're one of the guys, always kind of plays
with lyricism like that, Yeah, and I like that he
doesn't do it over the head. You know, it's just
little BIPs and bobs, like little clues. Yeah, And I
think that's kind of fun and mysterious. Those are things
I like, really give a chance. But then also I
(12:52):
think that it's yeah, like it's it's I think they
become better at making songs and this has that hook.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Right totally. No no, yeah, no, no, no, no no, right, that's.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Fun and that's influenced from like I mean that that
influence can come from.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Which, by the way, that melody that when you sing it,
like that's separate from the song, separate.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
From the words like an ice cream truck or something.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
No it, but it also is a specific it's it's
a it's some Oh my god, I like it's. I
think it's from like like like Twilight Time or some
like fifties almost like Satin Glove do wop song. I'm
(13:36):
gonna have to look this up afterwards or try to
see if I can find it.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It does sound like a like a like a Latin
car horn.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yes, and that comes from something, which makes me wonder
if this was almost like if the inclusion of that
and the challenge to write lyrics to it could have
even almost been like an in joke in the band,
like if someone's like, yeah, you know that melody, Like
what if we wrote words to that and made it
the chorus of the song.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, you're right, Like it's fun. It's fun that that's
there too. It goes more into that mystery. Yeah, I
will say like and this brings us back to that
Beatles Revolution number nine, which is like it's tough to
put this out all the time. There's some songs on
this album that I love, and this is an album
that like I'll play all the way through.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
The songs or which ya?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
And there were songs that I think are in some
ways more indicative who they become that I was toying
with playing. There were some songs that I felt like
are easier to listen to. This was like right in
the middle because it's like it's got that drum. Yes,
that's that you either love or hate. Like it's like
it's propulsive.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
There's a persistence to it that actually, in a weird way,
I think grounds it. I don't sorry. I what's interesting
is I feel like I have a tendency to sometimes
build up something like an animal collective song to almost
like like thinking it's going to be like fifty percent
more experimental than it is, which maybe that sounds crazy,
but where I'm like, oh, this is going to be
(15:16):
like unlistenable, and it's like, no, it's not unlistenable. It's
like it kind of sounds like people took mushrooms and
like just was like writing a bunch of like like
a stream of consciousness and then it was sculpted. That's
not an unsculpted song. There are like things that happen
that are that become like there are events, and there's
even events that repeat. I think if you're like looking
(15:40):
too deeply from meaning in it, I think that you
are sort of maybe doing yourself a disservice, meaning like
if you need the song to be like narrativized. But
I think what you're talking about, which is a more
overarching thing which reminds me of something like a writer
like Stephen Malkmus or something like that, especially earlier in
Pavement or probably to a degree even like certain Yeah,
(16:03):
that generation of of indie rock songwriters or whatever, like
people in Sonic Youth or whatever. It really was more
like Jackson Pollock than like some sort of like renaissance
you know, still Life or something hyper like it was,
or maybe Picasso in there a little bit too, But
I think I think of that whole. This approach to
lyric writing is way more like you're throwing splashes of
(16:28):
paint and it's very vivid, and I do think when
you step away from it you can find resonance and meaning.
But if you were like looking to find like the
fully defined outline of a woman or something and it
or you know, you might be like, I don't see that,
but that's not what you're supposed to see. So I
also think that success of something like this depends I
(16:50):
guess with all things, it depends on the ears of
the beholder, but also like what they were setting out
to do, I think a band like this is very successful,
just like right said Fred was in what they were
setting out to do. Like if you hit the mark
with what you were setting out to do, there is
a version of that that will always be successful, whether
or not I like it or not. But what we're
(17:12):
talking about is what we think.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It is kind of strange now that you say it,
Like painting had to become experimental, right like with the
advent of it, like of a camera you saw, you know,
and photography getting bigger and bigger. The job of a
painter kind of no longer became portraits, right, or it
still was, but you can have more fun now.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Basically yeah, and expressionism all that came at the same time,
and you know, you get to your Matisse, your picassos
Kandinsky's like all that stuff, and that was what was
popular and then it's just gotten more, not more experimental,
but experimental in different ways, like mixed media things like that.
It is strange that music hasn't really followed that. Of
course there's always experimental, but like the mainstream, right, and
(17:59):
it's not an it's not a one for one, but
it is strange. But I mean, and maybe maybe I'm wrong,
and maybe like if you took a person from like,
you know, the nineteen fifties and you brought them now
and you played them an arian A Grande song, they'd
be like, what is going on with this? Like sonically,
we're so.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Sonically for sure, go finish your thought. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Sonically, I think there's probably like you know, there's so
much like you know, you know, pads like like keyboards.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
And just information.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like you know, if you put
on like Scizza or a person from the nineteen forties,
it would blow their mind no matter what. But sonically.
But I agree though that I think what you were
going to say, I agree with what you were going
to say. I agree with what I think you were
going to say. Just where was it going to be?
That it this? It's just a straightforward song.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
What I think the thing, what I think maybe you're
leading me to think about, is the role of popular
music in culture versus the role of something like especially
like maybe music you're talking about like the relative rates
of evolution and experimentalism in these forms. Maybe pop music
is less like new modes. I'm maan sure there are
(19:11):
papists who would say that I don't mean this as
a degradation. I mean it more as a contextualization. I
think for every like critic or or you know, sort
of like a forward thinking whatever, kind of like student
of this shit that would make the argument that like, no, dude,
like there is like crazy experimentalism and like the studio
(19:32):
work of like Justin Bieber now or something, and there
is like the production wise and with respect to how
things are layered, And but I kind of feel like
maybe the role of mainstream music is more like the
paintings of a beautiful sunset or or or like you know,
boats and a dock at your dentist's office than it
(19:54):
is to be like like, I don't think or I
don't think that most people are going to popular music
for experiments. Listen. I think most people are going to
popular music for like something to have on while they
do the dishes, or to dance to on a Saturday night.
And I think the moments were a thing that does
become super popular but is formally challenging in some way,
or I don't know, thinking of things that become Kendrick
(20:16):
Lamar played the Super Bowl. Now there are things in
Kendrick Lamar's catalog. I'm not the fucking most like died
in the wool hip hop head that I can tell
you all that, But I know from listening to like
a bunch of other charting hip hop artists and listening
to like all of a Kendrick Lamar album, there's moments
(20:36):
on a Kendrick Lamar album that sound like they could
be on the radio. And then there's moments on a
Kendrick Lamar album where I'm like, this is like, you
know what I thought listening to kid A in two thousand,
but in this sort of like popular and again the
guy from Aphex Twin thought radio had sucked when they
put kid A out and was like, why is everyone
shooting themselves about this? Like people are making more interesting
(20:58):
square push or and whatever or else, like there's so
much more interesting versions of this, but that's not the
shit that's ever gonna be like on the radio or MTV.
Animal Collective was like a weird bridge. Also, culture and
media were changing yet again when they came, but they
didn't have the career like Vampire Weekend has had. You
weren't like it wasn't like you know what I mean
(21:20):
Vampire Weekends like and even they're like an idiosyncratic entity
compared to like I guess Coldplay now or imagine Dragons
or something. They're not the same thing. But I also
don't think Animal Collective and Vampire Weekend are the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah yeah, And going back to art, maybe it's more
like a Jeff Kuhon situation right where it's like he's
not doing anything that's crazy experimental, but he's there's there's
obviously you know, a team and talent behind that and
like to make these pieces and they are outlandish in
some way, but you wouldn't be like that's experimental, but
(21:55):
it you know, like just as to bring it back
to like the one for one, because yeah, yeah, there's
still commercialism and selling things and putting things in front
of people.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I just talked for a long time, so I feel
like I don't want to keep talking because what you
just yeah, I mean all of it has Look you're like,
all of this stuff exists in a marketplace, and there's
a difference maybe between like the marketplace and like late
stage capitalism. The marketplace has existed forever. Whatever it is
that we're suffering now is a really different thing for
(22:28):
ninety percent of the people on earth. But it's not
like animal collective they like. I also think. I think
about an artist like this and like they were, it's inseparable,
unseparable whatever. You cannot separate it to me from like
the moment and the context in which they came to fruition.
This is like a story of art damaged kids in
(22:48):
North Brooklyn in the early to mid two thousands, just
like trying shit in an environment where there's a bunch
of other people trying shit and it gave birth to
a million bands, a very spirit range of bands, but
all of whom we're very much trying to like exist
in the marketplace. Which is not a negative or a pejorative.
It just is true. Everybody that's evered. I sell my records.
(23:12):
I want people to buy tickets to the shows. There's
another degree to it, though, which I think of when
the art world comes into it, or when like strata
in like when an indie band becomes a like successful band.
That's like where the marketplace all of a sudden becomes
something else where. It becomes like a sign of status
to have a Kuon's in your living room or to
(23:36):
know and and that stuff. There's something in there. I
guess you could fucking grow all the way back to
like the Medici and whatever else, but there's something in
there where. It's like there's a Warhol moment in there
where it suddenly becomes like you know what I mean.
Like I do think that there's like some weird black
hole or wormhole or some other fucking thing I'm not
(23:56):
going to get right that something has to travel through
to go from like kids in rehearsal spaces on like
North Forth and Kent in two thousand and five, Like,
what would it sound like if we did this to
like the stage at Lallapalooza, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Like the late night shows? Yes, And did you ever
see this? There was sort of this one around Animal
Collective was on. I just found the clip of it,
but I don't know what show it was. But anyway,
they were on a late night show and someone put
on the clothes captioning and there's two things in parentheses
(24:30):
and it said woman vocalizing, man speaking backwards.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Oh dude, I have seen that. That Still, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I love that For people who don't know, there's there's
no woman in the group, and it's just I love
man the.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Best of our knowledge, no one speaking backwards. It's not
the little guy from the David Lynch movies or whatever. Yeah, yeah,
the man from another place.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, so funny. I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
And look, that's the thing where I don't know, I
don't even know if any of what I'm saying resonates
makes sense. I trust that it does. On some level.
I feel like they're they're making no bones about wanting
to be like this is an art project. It's an
art project that but I do think there is a
(25:28):
color in their art project. It's not like animal collectives,
Like you can't identify the data that goes into it.
You can totally hear. It's so funny that thing you
brought up about Smile or the Beach Boys. Then the
like like I remember like Mike Fatom, who played drums
in our band Forever, showing me what pointing out on
some of those records that like sometimes there's just like
(25:49):
a ride being hit one, two, three, four for like
eight minutes in a song. That's what's happening to like,
it's like both and then it becomes like hypnotic or
kind of like there is an aspect of it that
almost becomes this swirl, but it's just from the rhythmic.
It's like a metronome, but a metronome that's being hit
(26:10):
on a ride symbol. That's kind of what that propulsive
tom drum thing feels like to me? Is it both
but also like that sort of feels like that gives
it that brings it into the realm of sort of
like traditional song in a weird way. It's just like
somebody hitting four on the floor on a tom drum.
That's in a million things. Maybe they don't do it
for three minutes in a million things. It might be
(26:32):
like the verse and then the snarrow come in or
whatever else, but the data is all and that pastiche
lyrical malk miss that thing where it's like cutting up,
you know, Tom Waits. Tom Waits talked about like how
do you write your songs? I opened the newspaper with
my wife and we cut up lines from the newspaper
(26:53):
and glue them in different orders or whatever on a page.
But then it's like everything iterates and they're definitely doing
a thing that's like, you know, they're taking all of
that stuff and putting it in a blender, and what
comes out is also like whatever they were bound by
what's the word technologically, like how they weren't in a
studio with Capitol Records money making Smile for five years
(27:15):
or whatever. They were like kids in a fucking room
somewhere in North Brooklyn at this point. And that's part
of what makes it fun and adventurous. I guess it's
like I don't even know if what you're looking for
from like give it, to give this a chance, or
to disqualify it. If it's like where's the song? Well,
then you're going to disqualify it. But if it's like, yes,
(27:36):
it succeed on its own terms. I think something like
this is like, yeah, that's it's cool. It's there. They're
doing what they want.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
You know, what they do really well is you know
how it's very different. But you know how in like
club music, there's this sort of patience that you know,
people who like are go to clubs like they're waiting
for like a beat to build and then to drop,
and there's that, you know, there's that moment that they
wait for over and over again. And part of that
is psychedelics or just or or you know, drugs like yeah,
(28:07):
making that feel cooler, and they wait for those moments.
And then so then when they go listen to music
at home, it still reminds them of when they've been
at a club. Yes, they still get right. I don't
collective does that a lot from their career. For I've
noticed they have a lot of like these patient moments,
and sometimes it's like they will make something a little
bit more atonal and a little bit more dissonant, and
(28:30):
then they'll they'll resolve right, like and they have done
that really well across the years. And then like even
that My Girls song and that record in general, they
were influenced by a lot of that stuff. There's a
lot of like building intension and then release, and this
is like a small example of it. Like when when
you know the song a few times and then it
gets to that like it's the drum stops, it's.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Like, you know, a moment, it's an event.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, And it's a microcosm I think of like what
they do well. So it's kind of fun on their
first album that they they hit they hit that, and
that they refine that over time. So I do think
like if if for people who are hearing this the
first time and they're like hearing whoa, whoa, whoa, yea
moments like that, Like I know Lisa doesn't love that,
(29:16):
but she does like some of their later work and
like it's it's so crazy to hear. Like the reason
I thought of this is like that guy Panda Bear,
who's one of the Animals, put out a record and
it's really straightforward yeah right, and it's and it's like
the most straightforward thing he's done and still like has
moments of experimental you know, songwriting and structures and sounds,
(29:42):
but it's compared to this, it's and and I and
again I don't think that this is too wacky.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
But I think you're you're pointing out something. Yeah, it's
like that also indicates the personalities in a band too,
and that's what makes a band inherently some like most
of the time more more interesting than just like a
guy is like, you have this range of ideas in
the room, and maybe there's like one guy and I
(30:10):
don't know them personally, I don't, you know, but it's
like I wonder if there's like I'm sure there's shared
vocabulary between all of them, but I also wonder if
there's like one guy an animal collective who's like more
the like you know, surfing us, a beach boys guy,
and then there's one guy who's more the like whatever
the drown Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. And I think, you know,
(30:32):
and I do think that what you talked about earlier,
that that what you just said made me reflect on too,
is like I don't know, I'd like to think someone
might give it a chance, just because for three minutes
it's like this isn't like what you're going to hear
anywhere else you move through your day probably and like
most spaces, you're not gonna be like a grocery store
and this is gonna come on. You're not going to
(30:54):
be like in your dentist's office and this is gonna
come on.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
That would be fun cool.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
I'm sure there are some dentists' offices in North Brooklyn
where this might come on, or at least there were,
But I do think that, like it's funny. I remember
when I was my niece, who's now like a grown
up on nurse and like, you know, a person, but
when she was like a kid kid, we were watching
the Grammys once at my brother's house and it was
the year that Radiohead was nominated for uh in Rainbows
(31:21):
for a bunch of Stuff, and they performed and they
did fifteen step with like a with like a like
a brass band or something, and I remember I was like, oh,
this is amazing. Like I still at that point, even
with the band as big as them, we'd been on
Capitol and whatever else, there's still a point where I
was like, it's kind of crazy. Whenever you see something
like that in a context like that still feels weird
(31:44):
to see. And I remember my niece was like, you know, eight,
and it ended, and she was like I hated that,
you know, and remember being like, oh, yeah, that's interesting,
Like she's got no it's not like she's reading Pitchfork
or whatever. She just was like watching that and was.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Like a zero one hundred, Yeah this sucks.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Where's the song? But also there's something I feel like
when my my daughter would hear like Daniel Johnston the
thing you talked about earlier that was about like there's
a childlike thing in this music that I do think
and that isn't like I don't know I think about
that like you know, Calvin Johnson, Beat Happening, all that
(32:23):
K record stuff, definitely the Beach Boys. Parts of Brian
Wilson's brain, there is this like, yeah, thing that's like
about a kind of like because I think maybe it's
like a sense of like silliness, playfulness, abandon and also
like not self consciousness. That's what it is that I
(32:44):
think is like to me, that's that's always to be
given a chance because the world's going to try to
strip that out of you as much as possible, as
often as possible.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
This is a kid song. You know, I didn't think
about that, but it's like, if I actually want to
play this for my three and a half year old
daughter and see what she thinks, because it's so it
feels like something that like, you know, Peter Pan and
the Lost Boys would make or something.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
That she could make up in some way, like and
I know, not to disparage animals, you know what, I know.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think they would say I think they might say
that too, or because it's very simple and they are
talented musicians, but of course they're like, let's like they're
intentionally making this simple and it's it's really Yeah, it
is so kid like and not kid like in the
way that but similar to that, like they might be giants,
like just can appeal to children because some of it,
(33:34):
especially later, they started making songs for kids. But like
I put on Flood recently just to see what she
thought of it, and she didn't react much, and I
was like, these are kid songs in some ways, like
a lot of them feel like what a kid song
sounds like, even though I don't think at the time
they were really trying to do that.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Yeah, it's almost like the there's a kind of like
there's something about the earnestness of it, and I don't
mean earnest like like there's different definitions of that word.
Not not Yeah, I don't mean like goes to camp.
I meant it more like Ernest goes to space. No,
I don't know is did they ever go to space?
In the Earnest verse?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Not yet?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Get on that, get to the people, you know, right,
Ernest seven? Did Jim Varney pass Is he resting in power?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
He passed on the project?
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Oh he did? You see? So? Yeah? Yeah, yeah he's dead,
but he definitely passed on the project.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
You were saying there, there's yeah, there's an earnestness, there's an.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Openness and like I feel like the way they sing,
I feel like I'm thinking of like bird even like
their biggest hit, like Birdhouse in Your Soul. There's something
about it that it also makes me feel like stand
by r EM. There's only like one or two genetic
code pieces of code missing between that Birdhouse and your Soul,
and like stand by r E M. There's this like
you know, and I feel like that to me always
(34:55):
totally yes. And you're like, did you write that nu
Stanbul not constantinople it all?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that part and that particle man,
that's like a D eight eight eighty, like it's similar
to this song and it's like it's so catchy, but
it feels like Date eight eighty. I love it like
it's it, you know, and I don't know, Yeah, it's
it's fun.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I wanted to.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Ask you, though, like, is there a record of yours
that you feel is the most experimental I ever thought
of what it probably is, but I wanted to see
in your opinion.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I mean, I think that when I listened, like I said,
when I listen to music that's actually I know that
my music is so song forward and so like kind
of like indebted to really a group of like a
half dozen or so, in particular, a half dozen or
so or ten artists and maybe like a handful of
(35:49):
like subgenres within a scene, a loose scene. I think it.
I think it depends how you define those words. Like
I think there's a breadth of styles represented on a
record like Brother's Blood. I think that there's a conscious
choice to kind of we tried to make some like
kind of dense sort of like a lot of like
(36:12):
MIDI information inside of three and four minute songs on
something like Concrete and Clouds, which is like a folk
rock record, but there's these like weird sort of like
spookinesses in it and some synth exploration. I feel like
the last record we made is the most like we
were intentionally, Chris Brocco and I it was like we
were highlighting those records like It's a Wonderful Life by
(36:35):
Sparkle Horse, What's the one that has a Soft Bullet
and by Flaming Lips, Ghost is Born by Wilco White album.
Not that I think we reached those qualitative heights, but
I mean, like really that the pinnacle for us of
like song records that then took the songs and like
pulled them in weird directions. But I also think all
(36:55):
my songs are pretty much rooted around like you know,
a guy playing guitar and some instruments behind him.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
So but you're you're saying that nothing's real, so nothing's wrong.
It's like it feels that's the one that you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
That right now. It does to me. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I was actually going to say that I think there
are moments on bubble Gum right totally right that, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I got confused. Pull.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I guess think that one bubble Gum has like I
think I remember you talking to you and that you
felt often that you were you were pushed into directions
or even the rest of your band was pushed into
directions to work, to do something, you know, to push
a little bit more into the bag, or something you know,
(37:36):
which is well, I think that record, get that from
all your producers.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Though, well, I think that record was a genre the thing.
Maybe the reason I don't think of that record on
some level as experimental is not an accurate reflection, but
it's because it is a genre record, Like it's totally like,
let's make our version of a punk album. And so
I think there's a degree to which I actually thought
there were aspects of that record where it was like
(38:00):
very clear the colors we were to paint in, if
that makes sense. But I also think there are things
within those songs and within that color palette. We made
that record with Jesse from Brand New, and there was
things about him being like such a song person but
also such like an accomplished loud rock band person with
(38:22):
like again in that band, there's these moments of experimentalism,
especially from like two thousand and six seven forward or onward,
that I think, like him being in the mix on
that that was certainly what was being pushed was like, yo,
like how do we make this x percent crazier like
with the with sonic instrument presentation?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, like fiscal Cliff right or certainly, and what's the
one that the Stranberg instrumental.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Oh copy Bara?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, yeah, those are two pretty like like I remember
where and where I was when I heard fiscal Cliff
for the first time, and I was like thrilled by it,
and I was like this is so at the time
it felt very different. But well that's eon of what
you know, what you like, and who I know of you.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
That goes into a great way to maybe tie this
all up, which is like, again, all of these words
are subjective. They mean things, but they're subjective. Like so
in context a song like fiscal Cliff and if you
don't have any I mean, I guess people listen to this,
maybe a bunch of from do know it. I'm sure
there are a bunch that don't know our music. But
there's that's a song that almost like in some places
(39:30):
sounds like it could be a Dead Kennedy song, in
some place it sounds like it could be a Pearl
Jam song, and some place it sounds like it could
be ye, and then there are aspects of that that
are like, why that's experimental. I don't know if that's
an experimental song. Why that's an experimental song? In hour
Slash my catalog is that it takes a color I
(39:51):
might have painted in for two lines or for twenty
seconds in a song, and it pegs it to the
red and lets it go there for three minutes. And
so that becomes then an exploration of what does it
mean to experiment? Is it that everything? Is it like
the most radical sounding or is it just like a
(40:12):
departure for that artist. Like if I made a song
tonight that sounded like a quiet storm R and B
song and I played it with the straight face and
I wasn't being cute or funny about it, that would
be experimental, even if it sounds like Luther Vandros and
not like John Cale or something.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
So that's and it's also up to the listener too.
That's of course finishes the listener or the person that
goes to finishes all art, right, And so yeah, that's
interesting too because they'll be like, no, this is just
Luther Vandros.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Or like totally, like if I said to some people
if I was like, yo, this is a punk record,
there might be some people who listened to Bubble going back,
what are you talking about? Like punk? To whom? You
know what I mean? So all of those things. But
I think what, at the very least, at the bare minimum,
I think that a band like Animal Collective invites this
(41:02):
kind of depth of consideration. And again that's objective because
there may be people who listen to this episode and
be like, well, that was you know, fucking dog shit
alf No, never listen to that again. But to me,
it like prompts. It prompts discussion, It prompts you you
want to like pick some things apart, and also there's
(41:22):
some things that you just want to like let u
let the mystery sit. There's something cool about that too,
Like I don't need to know everything. It's kind of
cool to have to guess a little bit. But that's
my that's that's my.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
And that's that's our take on Chinese democracy.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
Folks, gn R hope you enjoyed it. Axel, don't sue us.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
We're gonna do that song. We're gonna do that.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
A song should do it as a season. The whole
record it's just the name too, It's insane.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
We're gonna We're all get it.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
I too.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I have to just say that Bill Burr quote about
like by the time that he put it out music,
it had changed three times.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I like, how much from building this up, Like someday
you will hear.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Us today, guys.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, yeah, Well we'll get to it one day, guys.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
But not today, no chance. Chancers.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Thanks for listenings.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Best of days. Go listen to all
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Of those experimental Kat songs.
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