May 14, 2025 • 26 mins
On this week's In Service Of R&B superstar Coco Jones joins cohosts Steve Baltin and Sage Bava to talk about her new album and tour and much more.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome back to in service of Today we're excited to
be joined by the amazing Coco Jones. You probably know
her as the powerhouse vocalist and actress who's been lighting
up both our screens and playlists, But today we're diving
into her newest chapter, her latest album, Why Not More.
It's a stunning, soulful exploration of vulnerability, confidence, and growth.
It's filled with rich vocals, deep grooves, and lyrics that
(00:28):
feel both intimate and empowering.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, thanks for being here today. I mean, you know,
congratulations on the record. It's such a good record, and
you know it's funny. Was there like one song for
you that sort of was the jumping off point where
you feel like this is the direction the recorded Well, you.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Know, I feel like right now, there's so much music
out there, and I think in a good way. It
kind of it kind of blends a lot of different things.
So I feel like there wasn't one song that was like, Okay,
this is the direction. If anything, it was probably just
one feeling, and I would say the feeling of urgency
(01:23):
and whatever that means for whatever the song becomes. You know,
it could be a uptimbo, it could be you know,
a slow song, it could be a ballad, but that
feeling of urgency, I think is the through line.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
What does urgency mean to you? Like you said, it
could be a fast song, it could be like a ballad.
But I mean when you think of like a song
has like an urgency, you know, talk about what that
means to you.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I think urgency to me is using music for the
tool that it really can be, And music can be
this tool of universal connection. Music can make everyone feel
like we all go through the same thing in different ways,
and I think that there's not many things in the
world that have that power. So I think that's the
(02:08):
kind of urgency that I'm talking about. Just a feeling
that everyone can relate to, a feeling that transcends genre
or a race, just a universal feeling, whether that's love, confusion,
all of those emotions are so so universal.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah. No, it's funny. One of my favorite songs of
the record was the Other Side of Love, and I
was just telling stage beforehand because I'm obsessed with Gladys Knight,
one of my favorite vocalists of all time, and that's
like a modern retelling of neither one of us wants
to be the first to say goodbye. And it's interesting
how there's Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's a great song
and fifty years a part. You have these two songs
that are both telling the same thing about like dude,
(02:48):
I know I need to get the fuck out of this,
but why can't I?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, Wow, that is that's a great comparison. And I
appreciate you, even you saying that I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well, yeah, I mean it's such a great song. And
like you said, you know, that's a feeling that's universal.
And unfortunately, you know, people one hundred years ago and
two hundred years ago were like, dude, I gotta go,
but I can't. So real, so real, So I'm gonna
say it take over one second. One Curious for you
when you think of those songs that like spoke to
you that sense of urgency, like when you were growing up,
(03:21):
that made you feel like everyone was saying the same
thing or feeling the same thing you were. What were
a couple of those songs.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
When I was growing up.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
I think Shane of Fools was a song that you know,
as a young girl, I couldn't understand it, but I
felt it for some reason so much. I felt that vulnerability.
I think Mary J. Blige had a lot of songs like,
you know, I was a young girl, but I could
I could just feel something.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Maybe I didn't understand the full concept, but I think
the women of R and B that came.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Before me kind of woke me up to the to
the power of music.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Congratulations on the record, and I love to hear that
sense of urgency that you tied to the universality of music.
One of the things that we love to talk about
is how music can kind of seamlessly flow through our
favorite artists because they're in service of something larger than
themselves in this kind of very human, very urgent way.
(04:21):
Was there songs on this record that that felt particularly
true for.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I think one song that I can speak to the
messaging is It's called by Myself. And what I love
about it is I feel like sometimes we keep people
around because we're scared to be alone in a sense,
and I was having this very introspective moment within myself
of wanting to be comfortable without any specific person, you know,
(04:51):
I wanted to be able to feel that like anyone
that was around me was because I wanted them there,
not because I needed them there to like to bring
out this this version of myself that I want to be,
you know, So that's one song where I can speak
to that.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That's interesting when you compare making this album to past projects,
What was there things that really surprised you about the differences,
especially now you know this is a different time of
your life, but it's also the first album. Can you
talk a bit about that process.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
I definitely would say the differences that I'm a lot
more vocal about what I want and on my EP,
I didn't want to be, you know, too vocal.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I was.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
I was just newly signed again after being independent since
I was sixteen, and I didn't want to mess things up,
so I was kind of scared to be the final say.
But then, like I said, you know, people around me
kind of some of them fell off, and then now
you have success and so people change, and I couldn't
(05:52):
trust anyone's voice louder than my own. So I had
to strengthen my voice, you know, because I realized that
it all has to come from me so that it
can feel the most authentic, so that it'll make sense.
And I think that's the biggest difference with this album
is I'm a lot more decisive, and it took the
(06:12):
EP for me to learn what I do and don't
want so that I can say those things confidently like
I have with this album.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I'm curious, did you develop like certain rituals or certain
practices and yourself that helped you cultivate that connection to
your intuition, to your voice and then helped you bring
that forward during this process.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I do think spending time with your own thoughts has
definitely helped me to like hear my voice louder than
other people's. I also feel like therapy was a very
huge game changer in having the confidence in my own choices,
you know, and not being afraid to be wrong, Like
as long as I'm right more than I'm wrong, I.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Can still choose and that's still good. The odds are
still fine, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
So I think therapy helped. And I would definitely say
prayer and asking God to make things clear, you know,
because before there was this whole team of people, before
there were these fans, it was just me and God.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
And I have to remind myself that if.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
It all went away, I can't let go of the
one person who was around.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
You know, so many artists will talk about the fact
that I mean, and we were just talking about this
with someone the other day, and fortunately I've done so
many interviews on brain that I can't remember who it was.
But I mean, look, as an artist, if you fail,
that's fine. You know, it's funny you say that you
know you're right more than wrong. But I think also
as an artist, when you look at all the greatest
(07:43):
startists of all time, they've had, you know, whether it's
Miles Davis, Jenny Mitchell, Prince, you know, everybody else, they
have stuff where they, you know, supposedly failed, you know,
and so have there been times for you where you
realize as well that you know, even if you quote
unquote fail, you learned something valuable from it and it
(08:04):
allows you to build forward to something better.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Absolutely absolutely, I don't think that there is a formula
at all to even know what's gonna work in this
time in music, and so that kind of gives me
comfort that you know, a lot of wrong turns will
eventually lead to the right place. So it doesn't matter
(08:27):
how you get there, as long as you just get there.
You keep putting stuff out, you keep you know, you
keep shooting at the at the target.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Oh. I was going to say, are the artists for
you that you really admire? You know that you look
at over the years and you know, or that you've
personally gotten to talk to and learn from where it's
like again, you know every I've talked about this with
so many people, and I remember Bush Gavin Rossall was saying,
it's so true. You know people talk about ups and downs.
He's like, that's called the career.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Even David Bowie, he might be the greatest startist of
all time. He had twenty something years where he never
made us start and then a three teams up with
Nile Rogers, who's the baddest man on the planet, and
went back to number one.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Wow, now that I didn't even know that. That was
like so inspiring right there.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Wow, everybody needs the help in the right person.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yes, that is so so real.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
I think about some of the women that have inspired me.
I would definitely say Jasmine Sullivan. I think she has
created such a world of her own when it comes
to vocal ability and timeless songs, and even now she's
reinventing her storylines so that you can sing your heart
(09:43):
out but you're talking about exactly what's going on in
the world right now, dating apps and hookups and all
of the things that are like so current, And I
think that is such a cool thing to do.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
With R and B, I think Party next Door. I'm
a huge fan of him.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
He's also somebody that I feel like has continued to
have songs in each era, and I think that's such
a skill and a craft of its own. And I
would say Scissa, I really really love her songwriting. And
you know, people talk about, oh, that sounds like a
scissor way of writing, Like that sounds like a scissor
way of sing singing, And I think that is That's
(10:19):
when you know you've done something that no one else
can do, when it's when it's branded by your.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Name, speaking of you know, that kind of finding your voice.
You know you've been doing this for a long time
and been in the industry for a long time. Was
there an experience or a year perhaps this album was
the thing that really unlocked your your voice, your message
like this this time of womanhood of what you want
(10:47):
to say? When did that really come into being for you?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I think it's been a very slow burn process. I
can't pinpoint a certain time or a certain event. I
think it's just learning through the things I don't like
and the things that I do like, and that comes
little by little before this album and after this album
and hopefully forever.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
You've been in this industry for so long, and as
everyone knows, like that can be incredibly challenging. Was there,
you know, the inner work, like you mentioned, therapy of
preserving your magic over the years. What's been some of
the most challenging things for you that you've been able
to transmute and turn into one of your one of
(11:49):
your skills.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I think I was very indecisive and I would have
like decision fatigue, It be too much, and I just
I would just delegate it to somebody else, and then,
you know, regret doing something that wasn't authentic. And so
it taught me to hone it into a skill where
I quickly answer with my gut, you know, like whatever
is the first thing, and I don't.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Really let anyone else's.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Opinion sway me, and so my team, I mean, of
course I lean to my team, but they know if
they're trying to convince me of something, then they have
to be really passionate about the why I should change
my mind because I try to just go with my
first instinct because of all of that time of being
so indecisive.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Do you also find now And I find this from
talking to so many people, that just as you get older,
you get more confident. So you know things that maybe
you work sure about before.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It's a combination of stuff of you know, therapy and
all that, but also, you know, just being older, you
kind of are like, you learn to trust your gut more.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I definitely think so.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I think you learn yourself and so you know, you
learn yourself and so you know yourself better. And I
think also you meet people along the way that teach
you crucial lessons that help you to be more confident.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
One of the things Stage and I talk about a
lot with artists is when you're writing, when you're recording,
when you're making your record, so much of music is
sub conscious, so things will come out and you're like,
I don't even know I was thinking that, and then
you go back and you listen to it and realize
what a song was about. So are there things that
you really learned on this record that maybe now when
you listen to the whole thing that kind of surprised
(13:31):
you in a good way.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I definitely feel like I was surprised to learn that
my path is going to carve itself regardless because of
my natural inclinations. I think I went into this album
with this strategy and it completely turned out to be
something different than what I thought I wanted and what
(13:54):
I thought I planned. And so I think that's what
the lesson was like. Even when I'm making the whole
future forethought of what I want things to be, what
I do every day with every song will end up
carving out something definitely different than what I thought in
a good way.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah. No, I think songs did kid themselves. You know,
they kind of tell you what they want to be,
and some it's something that comes very quickly. Other times
its process that we're talking. But before, were the songs
for you on this record that you know surprised you
in a good way that you know, like, again, you
said you had an idea of what you want the
record to be, and then you'll make a song you
(14:35):
know it'll be like completely different. So were there songs
on this record that took you in directions that totally
surprised you.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I definitely think Taste took me in a direction that
surprised me, and I think that scared me a little bit.
I think I was excited, scared because I knew it
was going to be, you know, mixed reactions, which I
was fine with. But I think also sometimes you got
(15:05):
to take these leaps so that you don't have to
look back and wonder, like, dang, what would have happened if.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
I would have just done that?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
You know, so I was, I was excited, but I
definitely would say Taste was a song that kind of
led me somewhere that I wasn't expecting to be and
I'm happy that I did it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I was gonna say, isn't that fun and exciting though?
For you? Because it's like, again you say you're not
sure what it's going to be, but I imagine you know,
you have an idea of what your voice is. Then
you go in this whole different direction and it's exciting
because you know you're still discovering, you're still learning, and
you know that's the thing is about music is like
it never will ever get boring because you're always going
(15:43):
to go into different directions. It's always going to lead
you someplace else exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I bet if you asked Beyonce when she was seventeen
and Disney's child, hey, do you know if you're going
to sing country music?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
She would have been looking at you so crazy. But
you know, it.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Led little by little to this person who can do
this woman who can do anything, and who inspires everyone
to feel like they can do anything. And I'm just
excited to see where my person takes me myself where
I take myself.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
The only person in history besides Beyonce who's done what
she's done is John Lennon, And I look at the
fact she went from booty Delicious to formation. That is hard,
transformation from being this pop singer to being a great
protest singer song. So for you, when you think of
(16:32):
where it'll take you won't be the dream. Is there
one thing musically that like it's still and again, as
we say it, the journey is exciting. You don't know.
But is there one thing where you look at I
mean you look at someone like Marvin Gaye, for example,
who basically you know, told Barry Gordy to fuck off,
I'm gonna make the record I wanted, and then he
made the greatest stoupment history.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
That is so so real.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
You know, if I could see my of going anywhere,
I think I could see a couple of different lanes.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
I was raised in Nashville, and so I do feel
like country music was a big part of my start
in my beginning, just the world and the music environment
that I was in.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
It taught me a lot.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
But I also feel like gospel has always been a
genre that I find myself coming back to, whether it's
for like to uplift others or to uplift myself. I mean,
I was born, I was raised in the church, and
I would sing on the choir, I would sing solo.
You know, that's the real place where you had to
tap into that spiritual connection to help people reach that
(17:39):
hope that they're looking for. So I could, I would say,
maybe I would surprise myself one day and end up
in one of those genres.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I'd love to see that. Yeah, I was curious, like
in the Beyonce story. I mean, I'm sure you know,
looking back upon your life in that kind of context
is one of the great joys of of this this
human path that we're on. And you know, now looking
back at this completed album the the lyrics, Are there
(18:11):
any lyrics that you really take with you, that you feel,
really carry carry you through and and hold a lot
of meaning. And I'd love to hear some of the
writing processes stories of those songs and how you build
the production around them.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
I would say, Ooh, that's a loaded question right there.
I would say. One of the songs where I take the.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Lyrics with me everywhere that I go is probably a
song that I released when I was an independent artist,
before all of this new wave of momentum, and it's
called just My Luck, and it was one of the
first songs where I was vulnerable versus saying something surface
love double because I was scared to let people see
(18:59):
that all in my life wasn't going great.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
And that song and that vulnerability led.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
To my first wave of I guess momentum as an
adult and I was independent, and so it was really
rewarding to see what happens when I take that leap
and tell my truth. And it kind of taught me
to run with that as much as I can in
every way, whether it's press, whether it's interviews, whether it's acting,
whether it's music like Don't Be afraid to tell the.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Ugly parts of yourself.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And lyric wise, I think if I could say any
lyric it would probably be the bridge where I say,
does my confidence offend you? Cookie cutter enough for you?
Is my melanine offensive? Do I talk more than I
show you?
Speaker 4 (19:46):
And it was kind of just this.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
This song about my plight with the industry and feeling
like when will I get the validation for all of
everything that I give to this craft. The production around
it was very simple, very dark, and I had never
done a song that was dark. I had come from
you know, Disney, and I had done super pop bubble
gun songs up until that point.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
But it just spoke to me.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Two part question. When you think about the album coming
out and the tour, what are you most excited about?
And you know, both interacting with your fans and then
also having your own time to rejuvenate.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
I think what I look forward to the most is
putting together a world. I think this is one of
my first times being able to when I was in
a studio keep the show in mind and to even
know what a tour is like, because my first tour
was just such a learning experience, and so I'm excited
(20:48):
to be intentional with the color schemes, with the lighting,
with the choreo, with the dance breaks, with the interpolations,
with the remixes, and with my original songs, and with
my my older songs and flipping them and giving them
new life, and really just putting together an entertaining world
that everyone gets to immerse themselves in. As far as
(21:09):
when it's over, I do not want to sing a note.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
I don't want to answer an email.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I don't want to send in a self tape for
at least a week. And I know that's like, that's
very brief, I think, but I can't even lie.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
I am a worker girl.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Like after those seven days, I'm ready to do something,
all right.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So now I'm curious, what's the best show you've ever seen?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Renaissance Beyonce's Renaissance show was the best show I've ever
seen because it was not just about watching something amazing,
It was about being a part of something amazing. Everyone
knew that you dress up and you're wearing silver, and
that's intentional, and the color scheme is intention and then
to just see a woman who has a body of
(22:04):
work that will keep you on your toes for hours.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
It's amazing if.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
You get one song in this day and age that connects,
but to have three hours worth of material, it's just
like the most inspirational thing I've ever witnessed.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
All Right, obvious question, then what color should ever really
wear to your.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Okay, Well, it's between like blue or I would say red.
I mean there's two sides to my album aesthetically, and
even on the vinyl there's two color schemes in the insert.
It's like this red aura aesthetic, which is kind of
leads to, you know, the fiery, charismatic side of me,
(22:47):
and then there's this blue aura, and there's this blue aesthetic,
which is the main album packaging, which leads to, I
think the version of.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Me that doesn't have all the answers, the.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Vulnerability and the softer side of yourself.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
So blue or red.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
If you're in your angry bag, if you want to
be fiery, you can wear red. If you're in your
soft girl and you are still being very introspective figuring
out things and you want to lead into that, you
are blue.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Nice all right. My last question that I let's say
it is finishing off what she wants. But I'm curious
you mentioned, you know, sort of opening up on this
and showing your darker side, and I think you know
that's the only way to become a real artist and
connect really with your fans, is you know, the more
vulnerable you are, the more people connect with it. And
(23:37):
if you've found that to be the case.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Oh absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I think the best thing I can do is let
people in to all sides of me. And it's also
the scariest thing I can do, but here we are.
That is the plight of an artist.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Speaking on that. What songs do you love to sing
the most and are you most looking forward to doing
on this tour that really connects you to you know,
not just vulnerability, but like a deep sense of you
beyond perhaps the identity and all of that.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You know what, I have to say some of my
older music because I have yet to perform my newer songs,
but I think I See You is my favorite to
perform at this moment in time, because it's just a
very special moment to hear the crowd belting the words
with everything in them, and it always takes me back
(24:35):
to before all of this was a thing, and I
was just writing songs in my apartment in La, wondering
if anyone cared, and it's just a real blessing to
hear them singing you know songs because that came from me,
a real blessing.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Well, well we're running out of time of the zoom.
We're gonna ask you slide, I'm steak, give one more questions.
But the name of the show of the podcast is
in service of and that came from the idea of,
as Sage said, giving back, but also for you know,
it exists in multiple dimensions as a musician, both giving
back musically to your audience, to your fans, and then
also in terms of philanthropy. And for you, as someone who,
(25:14):
as you said, grew up in the church singing gospel,
are there particular causes that really resonate with you or
that you know, how does it influence your work?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, I am very I'm very motivated by young black women,
and I feel like for me, any causes that lean
to educated education, mental health, I think I'm very big
on those, especially in the black community. And I'm very
big on foster care and adoption. My oldest brother is
adopted and he used to write all of my raps
(25:46):
for me when.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I was a young singer and rapper.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Those days are very much in the past, but he's
such a part of my family that I wouldn't known
any life without.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
So I'm big on adoption and foster care as well.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Cool. Was there anything that you want to add that
we didn't ask you about.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
You guys covered a lot, so thank you guys so
much for being thorough. I appreciate this interview.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, thank you so much for doing it. Good luck
at the studio.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
Thank you. Have a good day, guys. Thank you. Jim
Welcome back to in service of Today we're excited to
be joined by the amazing Coco Jones. You probably know
her as the powerhouse vocalist and actress who's been lighting
up both our screens and playlists, But today we're diving
into her newest chapter, her latest album, Why Not More.
It's a stunning, soulful exploration of vulnerability, confidence, and growth.
It's filled with rich vocals, deep grooves, and lyrics that
(00:28):
feel both intimate and empowering.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, thanks for being here today. I mean, you know,
congratulations on the record. It's such a good record, and
you know it's funny. Was there like one song for
you that sort of was the jumping off point where
you feel like this is the direction the recorded Well, you.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Know, I feel like right now, there's so much music
out there, and I think in a good way. It
kind of it kind of blends a lot of different things.
So I feel like there wasn't one song that was like, Okay,
this is the direction. If anything, it was probably just
one feeling, and I would say the feeling of urgency
(01:23):
and whatever that means for whatever the song becomes. You know,
it could be a uptimbo, it could be you know,
a slow song, it could be a ballad, but that
feeling of urgency, I think is the through line.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
What does urgency mean to you? Like you said, it
could be a fast song, it could be like a ballad.
But I mean when you think of like a song
has like an urgency, you know, talk about what that
means to you.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I think urgency to me is using music for the
tool that it really can be, And music can be
this tool of universal connection. Music can make everyone feel
like we all go through the same thing in different ways,
and I think that there's not many things in the
world that have that power. So I think that's the
(02:08):
kind of urgency that I'm talking about. Just a feeling
that everyone can relate to, a feeling that transcends genre
or a race, just a universal feeling, whether that's love, confusion,
all of those emotions are so so universal.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah. No, it's funny. One of my favorite songs of
the record was the Other Side of Love, and I
was just telling stage beforehand because I'm obsessed with Gladys Knight,
one of my favorite vocalists of all time, and that's
like a modern retelling of neither one of us wants
to be the first to say goodbye. And it's interesting
how there's Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's a great song
and fifty years a part. You have these two songs
that are both telling the same thing about like dude,
(02:48):
I know I need to get the fuck out of this,
but why can't I?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, Wow, that is that's a great comparison. And I
appreciate you, even you saying that I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well, yeah, I mean it's such a great song. And
like you said, you know, that's a feeling that's universal.
And unfortunately, you know, people one hundred years ago and
two hundred years ago were like, dude, I gotta go,
but I can't. So real, so real, So I'm gonna
say it take over one second. One Curious for you
when you think of those songs that like spoke to
you that sense of urgency, like when you were growing up,
(03:21):
that made you feel like everyone was saying the same
thing or feeling the same thing you were. What were
a couple of those songs.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
When I was growing up.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
I think Shane of Fools was a song that you know,
as a young girl, I couldn't understand it, but I
felt it for some reason so much. I felt that vulnerability.
I think Mary J. Blige had a lot of songs like,
you know, I was a young girl, but I could
I could just feel something.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Maybe I didn't understand the full concept, but I think
the women of R and B that came.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Before me kind of woke me up to the to
the power of music.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Congratulations on the record, and I love to hear that
sense of urgency that you tied to the universality of music.
One of the things that we love to talk about
is how music can kind of seamlessly flow through our
favorite artists because they're in service of something larger than
themselves in this kind of very human, very urgent way.
(04:21):
Was there songs on this record that that felt particularly
true for.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I think one song that I can speak to the
messaging is It's called by Myself. And what I love
about it is I feel like sometimes we keep people
around because we're scared to be alone in a sense,
and I was having this very introspective moment within myself
of wanting to be comfortable without any specific person, you know,
(04:51):
I wanted to be able to feel that like anyone
that was around me was because I wanted them there,
not because I needed them there to like to bring
out this this version of myself that I want to be,
you know, So that's one song where I can speak
to that.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That's interesting when you compare making this album to past projects,
What was there things that really surprised you about the differences,
especially now you know this is a different time of
your life, but it's also the first album. Can you
talk a bit about that process.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
I definitely would say the differences that I'm a lot
more vocal about what I want and on my EP,
I didn't want to be, you know, too vocal.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I was.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
I was just newly signed again after being independent since
I was sixteen, and I didn't want to mess things up,
so I was kind of scared to be the final say.
But then, like I said, you know, people around me
kind of some of them fell off, and then now
you have success and so people change, and I couldn't
(05:52):
trust anyone's voice louder than my own. So I had
to strengthen my voice, you know, because I realized that
it all has to come from me so that it
can feel the most authentic, so that it'll make sense.
And I think that's the biggest difference with this album
is I'm a lot more decisive, and it took the
(06:12):
EP for me to learn what I do and don't
want so that I can say those things confidently like
I have with this album.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I'm curious, did you develop like certain rituals or certain
practices and yourself that helped you cultivate that connection to
your intuition, to your voice and then helped you bring
that forward during this process.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I do think spending time with your own thoughts has
definitely helped me to like hear my voice louder than
other people's. I also feel like therapy was a very
huge game changer in having the confidence in my own choices,
you know, and not being afraid to be wrong, Like
as long as I'm right more than I'm wrong, I.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Can still choose and that's still good. The odds are
still fine, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
So I think therapy helped. And I would definitely say
prayer and asking God to make things clear, you know,
because before there was this whole team of people, before
there were these fans, it was just me and God.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
And I have to remind myself that if.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
It all went away, I can't let go of the
one person who was around.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
You know, so many artists will talk about the fact
that I mean, and we were just talking about this
with someone the other day, and fortunately I've done so
many interviews on brain that I can't remember who it was.
But I mean, look, as an artist, if you fail,
that's fine. You know, it's funny you say that you
know you're right more than wrong. But I think also
as an artist, when you look at all the greatest
(07:43):
startists of all time, they've had, you know, whether it's
Miles Davis, Jenny Mitchell, Prince, you know, everybody else, they
have stuff where they, you know, supposedly failed, you know,
and so have there been times for you where you
realize as well that you know, even if you quote
unquote fail, you learned something valuable from it and it
(08:04):
allows you to build forward to something better.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Absolutely absolutely, I don't think that there is a formula
at all to even know what's gonna work in this
time in music, and so that kind of gives me
comfort that you know, a lot of wrong turns will
eventually lead to the right place. So it doesn't matter
(08:27):
how you get there, as long as you just get there.
You keep putting stuff out, you keep you know, you
keep shooting at the at the target.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Oh. I was going to say, are the artists for
you that you really admire? You know that you look
at over the years and you know, or that you've
personally gotten to talk to and learn from where it's
like again, you know every I've talked about this with
so many people, and I remember Bush Gavin Rossall was saying,
it's so true. You know people talk about ups and downs.
He's like, that's called the career.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Even David Bowie, he might be the greatest startist of
all time. He had twenty something years where he never
made us start and then a three teams up with
Nile Rogers, who's the baddest man on the planet, and
went back to number one.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Wow, now that I didn't even know that. That was
like so inspiring right there.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Wow, everybody needs the help in the right person.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yes, that is so so real.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
I think about some of the women that have inspired me.
I would definitely say Jasmine Sullivan. I think she has
created such a world of her own when it comes
to vocal ability and timeless songs, and even now she's
reinventing her storylines so that you can sing your heart
(09:43):
out but you're talking about exactly what's going on in
the world right now, dating apps and hookups and all
of the things that are like so current, And I
think that is such a cool thing to do.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
With R and B, I think Party next Door. I'm
a huge fan of him.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
He's also somebody that I feel like has continued to
have songs in each era, and I think that's such
a skill and a craft of its own. And I
would say Scissa, I really really love her songwriting. And
you know, people talk about, oh, that sounds like a
scissor way of writing, Like that sounds like a scissor
way of sing singing, And I think that is That's
(10:19):
when you know you've done something that no one else
can do, when it's when it's branded by your.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Name, speaking of you know, that kind of finding your voice.
You know you've been doing this for a long time
and been in the industry for a long time. Was
there an experience or a year perhaps this album was
the thing that really unlocked your your voice, your message
like this this time of womanhood of what you want
(10:47):
to say? When did that really come into being for you?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I think it's been a very slow burn process. I
can't pinpoint a certain time or a certain event. I
think it's just learning through the things I don't like
and the things that I do like, and that comes
little by little before this album and after this album
and hopefully forever.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
You've been in this industry for so long, and as
everyone knows, like that can be incredibly challenging. Was there,
you know, the inner work, like you mentioned, therapy of
preserving your magic over the years. What's been some of
the most challenging things for you that you've been able
to transmute and turn into one of your one of
(11:49):
your skills.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I think I was very indecisive and I would have
like decision fatigue, It be too much, and I just
I would just delegate it to somebody else, and then,
you know, regret doing something that wasn't authentic. And so
it taught me to hone it into a skill where
I quickly answer with my gut, you know, like whatever
is the first thing, and I don't.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Really let anyone else's.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Opinion sway me, and so my team, I mean, of
course I lean to my team, but they know if
they're trying to convince me of something, then they have
to be really passionate about the why I should change
my mind because I try to just go with my
first instinct because of all of that time of being
so indecisive.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Do you also find now And I find this from
talking to so many people, that just as you get older,
you get more confident. So you know things that maybe
you work sure about before.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It's a combination of stuff of you know, therapy and
all that, but also, you know, just being older, you
kind of are like, you learn to trust your gut more.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I definitely think so.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I think you learn yourself and so you know, you
learn yourself and so you know yourself better. And I
think also you meet people along the way that teach
you crucial lessons that help you to be more confident.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
One of the things Stage and I talk about a
lot with artists is when you're writing, when you're recording,
when you're making your record, so much of music is
sub conscious, so things will come out and you're like,
I don't even know I was thinking that, and then
you go back and you listen to it and realize
what a song was about. So are there things that
you really learned on this record that maybe now when
you listen to the whole thing that kind of surprised
(13:31):
you in a good way.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I definitely feel like I was surprised to learn that
my path is going to carve itself regardless because of
my natural inclinations. I think I went into this album
with this strategy and it completely turned out to be
something different than what I thought I wanted and what
(13:54):
I thought I planned. And so I think that's what
the lesson was like. Even when I'm making the whole
future forethought of what I want things to be, what
I do every day with every song will end up
carving out something definitely different than what I thought in
a good way.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah. No, I think songs did kid themselves. You know,
they kind of tell you what they want to be,
and some it's something that comes very quickly. Other times
its process that we're talking. But before, were the songs
for you on this record that you know surprised you
in a good way that you know, like, again, you
said you had an idea of what you want the
record to be, and then you'll make a song you
(14:35):
know it'll be like completely different. So were there songs
on this record that took you in directions that totally
surprised you.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I definitely think Taste took me in a direction that
surprised me, and I think that scared me a little bit.
I think I was excited, scared because I knew it
was going to be, you know, mixed reactions, which I
was fine with. But I think also sometimes you got
(15:05):
to take these leaps so that you don't have to
look back and wonder, like, dang, what would have happened if.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
I would have just done that?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
You know, so I was, I was excited, but I
definitely would say Taste was a song that kind of
led me somewhere that I wasn't expecting to be and
I'm happy that I did it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I was gonna say, isn't that fun and exciting though?
For you? Because it's like, again you say you're not
sure what it's going to be, but I imagine you know,
you have an idea of what your voice is. Then
you go in this whole different direction and it's exciting
because you know you're still discovering, you're still learning, and
you know that's the thing is about music is like
it never will ever get boring because you're always going
(15:43):
to go into different directions. It's always going to lead
you someplace else exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I bet if you asked Beyonce when she was seventeen
and Disney's child, hey, do you know if you're going
to sing country music?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
She would have been looking at you so crazy. But
you know, it.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Led little by little to this person who can do
this woman who can do anything, and who inspires everyone
to feel like they can do anything. And I'm just
excited to see where my person takes me myself where
I take myself.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
The only person in history besides Beyonce who's done what
she's done is John Lennon, And I look at the
fact she went from booty Delicious to formation. That is hard,
transformation from being this pop singer to being a great
protest singer song. So for you, when you think of
(16:32):
where it'll take you won't be the dream. Is there
one thing musically that like it's still and again, as
we say it, the journey is exciting. You don't know.
But is there one thing where you look at I
mean you look at someone like Marvin Gaye, for example,
who basically you know, told Barry Gordy to fuck off,
I'm gonna make the record I wanted, and then he
made the greatest stoupment history.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
That is so so real.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
You know, if I could see my of going anywhere,
I think I could see a couple of different lanes.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
You know.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
I was raised in Nashville, and so I do feel
like country music was a big part of my start
in my beginning, just the world and the music environment
that I was in.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
It taught me a lot.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
But I also feel like gospel has always been a
genre that I find myself coming back to, whether it's
for like to uplift others or to uplift myself. I mean,
I was born, I was raised in the church, and
I would sing on the choir, I would sing solo.
You know, that's the real place where you had to
tap into that spiritual connection to help people reach that
(17:39):
hope that they're looking for. So I could, I would say,
maybe I would surprise myself one day and end up
in one of those genres.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I'd love to see that. Yeah, I was curious, like
in the Beyonce story. I mean, I'm sure you know,
looking back upon your life in that kind of context
is one of the great joys of of this this
human path that we're on. And you know, now looking
back at this completed album the the lyrics, Are there
(18:11):
any lyrics that you really take with you, that you feel,
really carry carry you through and and hold a lot
of meaning. And I'd love to hear some of the
writing processes stories of those songs and how you build
the production around them.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
I would say, Ooh, that's a loaded question right there.
I would say. One of the songs where I take the.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Lyrics with me everywhere that I go is probably a
song that I released when I was an independent artist,
before all of this new wave of momentum, and it's
called just My Luck, and it was one of the
first songs where I was vulnerable versus saying something surface
love double because I was scared to let people see
(18:59):
that all in my life wasn't going great.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
And that song and that vulnerability led.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
To my first wave of I guess momentum as an
adult and I was independent, and so it was really
rewarding to see what happens when I take that leap
and tell my truth. And it kind of taught me
to run with that as much as I can in
every way, whether it's press, whether it's interviews, whether it's acting,
whether it's music like Don't Be afraid to tell the.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Ugly parts of yourself.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And lyric wise, I think if I could say any
lyric it would probably be the bridge where I say,
does my confidence offend you? Cookie cutter enough for you?
Is my melanine offensive? Do I talk more than I
show you?
Speaker 4 (19:46):
And it was kind of just this.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
This song about my plight with the industry and feeling
like when will I get the validation for all of
everything that I give to this craft. The production around
it was very simple, very dark, and I had never
done a song that was dark. I had come from
you know, Disney, and I had done super pop bubble
gun songs up until that point.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
But it just spoke to me.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Two part question. When you think about the album coming
out and the tour, what are you most excited about?
And you know, both interacting with your fans and then
also having your own time to rejuvenate.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
I think what I look forward to the most is
putting together a world. I think this is one of
my first times being able to when I was in
a studio keep the show in mind and to even
know what a tour is like, because my first tour
was just such a learning experience, and so I'm excited
(20:48):
to be intentional with the color schemes, with the lighting,
with the choreo, with the dance breaks, with the interpolations,
with the remixes, and with my original songs, and with
my my older songs and flipping them and giving them
new life, and really just putting together an entertaining world
that everyone gets to immerse themselves in. As far as
(21:09):
when it's over, I do not want to sing a note.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
I don't want to answer an email.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I don't want to send in a self tape for
at least a week. And I know that's like, that's
very brief, I think, but I can't even lie.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
I am a worker girl.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Like after those seven days, I'm ready to do something,
all right.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So now I'm curious, what's the best show you've ever seen?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Renaissance Beyonce's Renaissance show was the best show I've ever
seen because it was not just about watching something amazing,
It was about being a part of something amazing. Everyone
knew that you dress up and you're wearing silver, and
that's intentional, and the color scheme is intention and then
to just see a woman who has a body of
(22:04):
work that will keep you on your toes for hours.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
It's amazing if.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
You get one song in this day and age that connects,
but to have three hours worth of material, it's just
like the most inspirational thing I've ever witnessed.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
All Right, obvious question, then what color should ever really
wear to your.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Okay, Well, it's between like blue or I would say red.
I mean there's two sides to my album aesthetically, and
even on the vinyl there's two color schemes in the insert.
It's like this red aura aesthetic, which is kind of
leads to, you know, the fiery, charismatic side of me,
(22:47):
and then there's this blue aura, and there's this blue aesthetic,
which is the main album packaging, which leads to, I
think the version of.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Me that doesn't have all the answers, the.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Vulnerability and the softer side of yourself.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
So blue or red.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
If you're in your angry bag, if you want to
be fiery, you can wear red. If you're in your
soft girl and you are still being very introspective figuring
out things and you want to lead into that, you
are blue.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Nice all right. My last question that I let's say
it is finishing off what she wants. But I'm curious
you mentioned, you know, sort of opening up on this
and showing your darker side, and I think you know
that's the only way to become a real artist and
connect really with your fans, is you know, the more
vulnerable you are, the more people connect with it. And
(23:37):
if you've found that to be the case.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Oh absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I think the best thing I can do is let
people in to all sides of me. And it's also
the scariest thing I can do, but here we are.
That is the plight of an artist.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Speaking on that. What songs do you love to sing
the most and are you most looking forward to doing
on this tour that really connects you to you know,
not just vulnerability, but like a deep sense of you
beyond perhaps the identity and all of that.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You know what, I have to say some of my
older music because I have yet to perform my newer songs,
but I think I See You is my favorite to
perform at this moment in time, because it's just a
very special moment to hear the crowd belting the words
with everything in them, and it always takes me back
(24:35):
to before all of this was a thing, and I
was just writing songs in my apartment in La, wondering
if anyone cared, and it's just a real blessing to
hear them singing you know songs because that came from me,
a real blessing.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Well, well we're running out of time of the zoom.
We're gonna ask you slide, I'm steak, give one more questions.
But the name of the show of the podcast is
in service of and that came from the idea of,
as Sage said, giving back, but also for you know,
it exists in multiple dimensions as a musician, both giving
back musically to your audience, to your fans, and then
also in terms of philanthropy. And for you, as someone who,
(25:14):
as you said, grew up in the church singing gospel,
are there particular causes that really resonate with you or
that you know, how does it influence your work?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, I am very I'm very motivated by young black women,
and I feel like for me, any causes that lean
to educated education, mental health, I think I'm very big
on those, especially in the black community. And I'm very
big on foster care and adoption. My oldest brother is
adopted and he used to write all of my raps
(25:46):
for me when.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I was a young singer and rapper.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Those days are very much in the past, but he's
such a part of my family that I wouldn't known
any life without.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
So I'm big on adoption and foster care as well.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Cool. Was there anything that you want to add that
we didn't ask you about.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
You guys covered a lot, so thank you guys so
much for being thorough. I appreciate this interview.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, thank you so much for doing it. Good luck
at the studio.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
Thank you. Have a good day, guys. Thank you. Jim
Hosts And Creators
Elvis Duran
Garrett
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