June 18, 2025 • 41 mins
On this week's In Service Of Grammy-winning jazz giant Esperanza Spalding joins cohosts Steve Baltin and Sage Bava to talk about the artist sanctuary she is building in Portland, and how helping run a business has given her a new joy in playing live.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Today, we're so excited to talk to the incredible multi
Grammy winning musician and visionary Esperanza Spalding. Spalding joins us
to talk about her latest initiative, Prismid Sanctuary, a regenerative
Net zero artists space in North Portland designed as a
land back site and healing haven for Black, Indigenous and
all bipop creatives. Prismid blends ecological stewardship with cultural restoration.
(00:28):
She has a really amazing funding project where she is
creating multiple albums for lucky patrons to help support Prisonmid's build.
It's a radical blend of artistry, land activism and mutual care.
Tune in for this incredibly inspiring conversation with Esperanza Spalding.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Your continue to do music, you continue to do all this,
but then you obviously are building the sanctuary, which is
something very special and important to you. I mean, you know,
and it's uh talk about you know. I don't want
to start with the obvious. I never do so for you,
rather than start with where the idea came from. I'm
so curious what is it that you hope to see
(01:27):
from it now? Because the station I we're just discussing
it feels more necessary than ever, not just with the
arts cuts, but in general, there's a natural reaction to
technology to want to go more again, it can kind
of go back to roots.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah, well, one of the values that we can practice
there is honoring various types of technologies. So you know,
in our commitment to become a sustainable site, our goal
is sanctuary to be ecologically and economically sustainable community, and
(02:07):
one piece of that is a lot of green information.
So in this rebuild we have cross limited timber, which
is a very modern technology, much more sustainable way of building.
We're not using any cement and we're sourcing all of
the cross all the timber for the cross limited the
(02:29):
timber from Indigenous Lead Forestry Project, Sustainable Forest Project. So
like even in that is this like beautiful confluence of
very contemporary technologies and very ancient technologies for free and
stewardship and indigenous community in our region. This part blood
and also of course we are water catchments and our
(02:51):
gray water reuse systems and our solid panels are all
these technologies that are very like of high high technology,
var modern modern era practices of sustainability. And then with
the grounds we have regenerative agriculture, and we're utilizing a
lot of indigenous technology and culture, ecological and cultural knowledge.
(03:15):
The acronym is eye tech and so there again it's like, Okay,
we have the building that our goals for the rebuilding
is that it lives in resicrocity to land around it,
and we're utilizing all these contemporary technologies that happen. And
then right alongside that, the way we tend the grounds themselves,
we're integrating this very ancient cultural practices of sustainability and
(03:38):
rest across me. And I think you know, when we
talk about a site for artists to be in their
practice and being respite, if not like so turnout your
phones and turn off your computers and like we're gonna
candle their toes. The practice of respite and retreat and
saying sure is ancient. You know that that is timeless.
It is the technology that the time and the way
(04:00):
that we're setting up our residency spaces and the whole
building is for it to feel very welcoming and accommodating
for artists in whatever practice they want to bring into
the space. If you want to do dance outdoors or
down indoors, like would be facilitate them. If you are
so mecry you just want to edit for five days
like ooh. And then you know, even in the practices
(04:24):
around accessibility, for many people, their mobility needs needs are
met by electronic wheelchairs, electric kill chairs, and so the
way that we're designing, the way the community has designed
the entire site, everywhere in the site is accessibility. People
are so like there you have it again, like using
(04:47):
ramps and pathways and you know, these these metrics that
are set by a very contemporate understanding of accessibility. But
we're using very ancient means to make that hap to
achieve that. And well that's that's not like our first
guiding principle of our organization. But since you asked, I'll
(05:11):
say it's very much about the ancient, the indigenous living
hand in hand in a harmony with our current technologies
for sustainability. And not that indigence technologies aren't current, what
are more like modern I'll the more modern technological event.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So an incredible it's such an honor to get to
speak with you. You've been such an inspiration to me over
the years and this project. I was taking a walk around.
My parents have this nature preserve up here that I
was really lucky to grow up and I was just
so excited to talk to you today and all of
this information about you know, how you're making this vision
(05:56):
come to life. I'm hoping it will inspire a lot
of other people to jump on that bandwagon and you know,
create community in their own ways around. I was curious,
it seems like you're you're really documenting this process and
you have this incredible community and you're sharing this this
(06:18):
How important is it to you to share this vision
and this message to inspire others to create that for themselves,
both internally and externally.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Thank you, Thank you for the positive encouragement, and shout
out to your parents for tandling a nature preserve that's
really important to you. I honestly, it's okay a long
time to feel ready and willing to share more publicly
about this work wow A because it's really challenging work,
(07:00):
and we know that a lot of great idea it
established and then they're there for a couple of years
and then they kind of crumble all apart. So in
some ways I wanted us to get really established and
were like, oh, yeah, like this this is gonna go
like this was going to keep going, you know. And
I think there's that the things that we are all
(07:21):
learning just from the practice of having a project like this,
they're valuable matter what happens, you know. Like if this
would have only been a three year project and if
ham and it went now was get I wouldn't have
done it. I wouldn't have felt like, oh, that was
a failure because we learned so much. Now it's five
years in and we have this solid, beautiful team and
(07:43):
the work is working, the programs are programming, the space
is spacing. I feel like, oh, we're all very clear
of the areas we have to grow, and that there's
so much still to be done. But I feel very
confident I stepping out in the world with my name
associated with this, and they like, this is a thing
that is happening that I see other people doing as well,
(08:08):
and and so I want you to succord it, you
know what I mean, Like, I think the folks you
need to do this work, and so many places are
already doing it, Like, and that's like people learning from
conversation with colleague and friends and fellow artists who are
out here tending their own versions of this and the
(08:29):
redundancy of it is really important because we need as
many visions of it as there are communities, and sometimes
as Mico communities within a community, and they each deserve
their own place with respite and support too. So part
of the like message of all of this is yes,
it's very challenging, that's very doable. And the reason we
(08:50):
archives so much is because there are very mulanced challenges
inside of this kind of work that you can't know
about until you're in it, bumping your head against it.
And so part of what I want to do, and
I share this a lot when I'm in places with
folks doing similar work, it's to be really transparent. I
want to challenges inside of it and going like here's
(09:10):
how we feel infrastructure to alleviate some of that challenge
or some of that strain. Oh, and then there's the
layer of all of this, which is like, I know
some people don't care about this girl, and that's kind
of fine, Like my job is not then people, it
is important. I know that there's enough folks on birth
understand why this work is important and want to support it.
(09:32):
I feel like my work right now is letting our
people know that we're here and we're doing this and
we're open to receive the support. And then this whole
campaign about the album is like, maybe there's enough people
on earth who don't care what it is that I'm doing,
but they want to commission to personalized album over me.
(09:52):
So there's also that layer of like even if you
don't care, don't know about the sanction. And he was like, oh, okay,
a tax seductible commission. Cool. I mean I also want
to reach those faults and like, yes, I will make
you an album. Make those donation and you get an album.
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
What drew you to that idea of garnering support in
that way? And I'm very curious about the number seven
how that came about of your well, yeah, sharing.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Open the chair. Well, I came to the idea because,
you know, I'm one of the directs. I'm a co director.
As two directors, two code directors Ecisney clings for you,
I'm one of the directors. And as we were delineating
our different areas of jurisdiction, which is an organization all
the parts have the fund raising, fell into my hair,
(10:49):
you know, And as I was plotting with our development
directly how do we and what do this? There's kind
of like a best practices that organizations do to burner funday,
And I was hearing this mapped out and thinking about
the way it's going to take me away from my
other as as the director who need to go out
and have conversations and do this thing into this that
(11:11):
I was like, I don't want to do that. I
don't want to play. I want to fact, I want
to write. So really from remembering that I'm an artist
that I make things that I think are very, very valuable,
and some other people are chewing and it's not like
how can I use the thing that I love to do.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
That I feel I do best to support this other
thing that I love so much, and so that my
supporting and caring for this sanctuary isn't like lucking me
away from this other work that I want to do
in the world.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
So that's really what I grew from.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
And I believe that original art made by musicians should
be treated with the same integrity and economic value as
are work made in any other media.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So it's also really like, yeah, my work, an original
work from me to you is worth some one hundred
thousand dollars, like yes it is, and you know it,
and so let's just let's just practice, aren't knowing. I mean,
let's practice without knowing.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
It's very cool. You know, it's very interesting to you.
Because I was going to say, I'm oh, sorry, it
was a little bit of echo.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Now.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
I was going to say, it's interesting too that you
mentioned about the you know, like the original artwork. It's fine.
I talked to so many artists about the idea of
working on film scores and how it's so different because
you're working with another person's vision. And this is very
similar in the sense of, like, you know, the work
that you're doing, as far as I understand, it is
(12:53):
going to be directed towards the people who are doing commissions.
So it's interesting if you tried anything like that, or
I mean, are you looking for because it's a different
exercise in creating.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah, I do this. This is a part of my
existing practice. Actually that isn't public Spaceman, some of this
way of creating from prompt like very specific prompts. I
want to say I developed skill at within the songwrits
(13:25):
Apothecary laugh, where you had these really purtific controlents and
or narratives and or images that need to be conveyed
through the medium of all songs. And so in that space,
I feel I've been practicing this way of writing a lot.
But also you know, for instance, this beautiful organization, important
(13:49):
of Anavision Trust is doing very deep development work in
community here party historically disenfranchised community, and they were going
to have a meeting of the school board to convince
the school board to go ahead and sell them this
like property that's not occupied right now. When I kind
out of it, I was like, ooh, I'm going to
ask you guys a song you can play in the
(14:10):
background of your meeting with the school board, just because
that that inspires me. I'm passionately about the issue. I
can't be there in person. I don't think me testifying
would be useful anyway. So I said, look, like, tell
me about it, tell me what you guys want something,
what you're asking for. And so with those I created
(14:30):
this uh like kind of like atmosphere with a little
like subliminal message or something for them to play in
the background. So all that is lay like this is
a way that I love to create. I haven't done
it out in the world for anybody, Like in a
public facing way. Granted, unless the person decides to like
(14:52):
play there the album that I make for them, like
in front of their friends of a thousand people or something,
it won't ever make it to the you know what
I mean, like once they get the vital data side
and how public or private it is. But it's a
practice that I've been honing in on over the last
few years. This way of tracting from very specific prompts.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Interesting. That's fascinating if you found that it's influenced your
own like reform creative stuff like improvisation and all.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
That well are in a way, I feel improvisation is
always a version of that. The input are what's happening
around you in the moment, though right to have somebody
displayed or the lyric and the song you're playing. I
feel this will be the first time that it's really like, Okay,
(15:49):
you give me. You give me the core elements that
you want to feel reflected back in this music, and
I'll synthesize them and create that. And the practice of
in taking what's happening, or in take the information through,
deciding it and punning it back in real time is
(16:10):
very much kind of like the deep part of the
DNA of jazz and in craft bias music as a whultring.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
It and I'm let's say it, shake it back over
a one second. But it is fascinating because I've talked
with so many artists about the idea of collaboration, and
you know, not everybody does get collaboration, but jazz obviously
is a music based so much on it, and the
people I've talked to you probably get it the most
are Carlos Santana and Herbie Hancock. And it's funny that
do you feel like, coming in this world of jazz
(16:51):
like it kind of lends you to the idea of
the sanctuary because you understand collaboration and it's something that's
always been important to.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
You interrupting, that's curious. I don't I don't know. I
don't know. I hadn't thought about how my okay, I
think the parts of my training or my mentorship, the
(17:22):
mentorship I've received in jaz that applies most of this
is it's like very deep for belief that no matter
what is going on, we're going to make beauty out
of it. And I see the difference between my colleague
when like something comes up it's like, look, god, I'm
I was like, oh okay, cool, Like, oh, what do
(17:44):
we make the best? Like, I have a lot of
inherent beliefs in like the capacity to add or sequentialize
or read organized or harmonize whatever is happening into coherent
whole that's beautiful and includes all the parts. And I
(18:07):
think that like orientation to maybe life or maybe group
projects I do comes from I think the practice of
being a jazz or an improvising musician. Let's say, so
I can say that I mean I this sanctuary project
(18:29):
is also growing out of like my direct need, but
as an artist living in a city who loves the
land and really desires space to be in community and
in my creator practice, and also desires would learn how
to cultivate that space in a sustainable way and environmentally
sustainable and then the relation with the relation and the
(18:52):
sustainable way. So it's just literally going out of my
own need and it's also going out of love for
the people who I need just work with. And like
Wayne always used to say, write what you wish for,
and I also I do that, and this is the
whole project is kind of like a composition and creative
(19:13):
expression and through it, I'm also trying to create what
I wish. I wish I had this as a model
for me, and so we get to craft it.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Very cool. Well, it's funny though, because it's just gonna
say quickly all I eat and over. But I was
just gonna say it's funny. You said, Wayne always said,
right what you wish for? Butth Big Cave and Shlia
connor told me the same things, and Sleid O'Connor said,
there's a songwriter you literally can will and do existence
things that you have to be careful. So yeah, it
makes total sense.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
As you've traversed these years of bringing this vision to
life with the community, I mean the people that you
have involved a lot of eclectic in the backgrounds and
multidisciplinary approaches. What have you learned or what has been
some of your most favorite moments in that co creation.
(20:09):
You shared a little bit about the ancient future the technologies,
which is so fascinating. I could listen to you talk
about that for hours. But what's been something that's really
stood out to you in this process.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
One thing, just to be frank, is that a lot
of us are really chewed up by this economic social
system we're really chewed up bad. And just because we
like a certain decision of a space for us to
(20:48):
be well together doesn't mean we automatically know how to
sustain that relationally. And so one big beautiful learn in
this is learning to be more at peace with the
fact that we have trauma, and that trauma tends to
(21:10):
express itself horizontally for people you're most comfortable with. And
so in this weird way, when like trauma and the
conflict comes up a it's often a sign like, oh
there's trust here. Oh okay, so we're relaxing to the
point where we can let ourselves feel what we feel
and say what we're we're hurting. It's often at that
(21:33):
clear and our dub as facilitators, as I'll say, as
steward as space is to build in a lot of
support infrastructure with skilled practitioners, with skilled mediators, with skilled
community facilitators who are deeply informed about historical trauma in
(21:59):
a generational small also just add our childhood experiences, you know,
the kind of traum born from that, and can help.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
Us field good practices in our work relationships, in our
community relationships that can kind of be capacious enough to
allow rooms for these inevitable kind of.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Challenging moments or conflicts or pains or you know, trauma expressions,
and we don't just see each other in the midst
that it actually turns them to learn, and that we
fold into the practice of the sanctuary as a whole.
Because the promise isn't we're all going to come here
and be perfecting the angels. That's not the promise. The
promise is that we're curating us space that's structured well
(22:44):
enough that we can come be ourselves and be in
relationship with each other. Our practice was land and have
support to move through difficult things that will when they arise,
and still be able to stay with each other and
stay in the space. And I that was that wasn't teaching.
I wasn't foreseeing. I didn't know that I needed to learn.
(23:05):
And it's funny how like you commit to it. I'm
sure in some way, like when you have kids, you
commit to a thing having there's no you could actually
know what it is and how intense it is, and
then you're in the intensity and you're like, well, this
is what I committed to, and then through the process
end up learning things you didn't know that your soul
(23:25):
really needed. Like I really, I didn't know that I
wanted to know these things, you know what I mean.
And just in the effort of intuning to show up
and bring help, to bring into the project what's needed.
I have learned so much about being a community member,
being a human, being a friend, being in a relationship,
(23:46):
all balances of relationship. And that's that's not even to
mention stupiding Land and being in the relationship with humans
who are holding deep skill about what it is to
Stewart Land. So I'll just I'll say that piece, yeah,
(24:09):
and then weirdly like because this is so much of
my day to day life now, you know, when I
go and do conferts now it feels like a vacation.
It feels like it feels like, yeah, like a breath
of fresh air, like so novel, so novel, so different,
(24:30):
so like fun so breezy, you know what I mean.
Because I'm still really in this like foundational phase, keeping
my attention and my energy and like you know, the
team like group think, you know, on this project. And
that has also been funny to feel this very different
way of relating to being a professional musician and I'm like, oh,
(24:52):
this is cute. It's fun. We get to go out
and like do a gig Ooh you know, its just
seem like so much work.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Let's enj And do you also feel like it's just
taught you a lot as a musician, because again there's
the sense clever and like you said, there's so much
different kinds of patience and you know, diplomacy and things
that you have to learn from the stuff you're doing.
And by the way, before I forget, since you mentioned
the you know how much fun it is to do
a concert. We definitely have to talk about the Blue
(25:21):
Miil fests now. But because Blashper is a good friend Dan,
that's gonna be real. And I know they were so
excited just ton now start with Winding Fire. Yesterday Alex
was like, thank god, we can finally say that.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
It's a secret. That's like im possible. Keeps well.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
The four guys been so busy trying to move four
months to LA shows. It's like, really, do you have
to put one more thing on my plate?
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Yeah? Yeah, I it's curious. I feel like there's been
it's so much movement and so much doing and so
much plotting and prepping intended. I haven't really like that
process a question like what you just asked of, Like
(26:07):
mm hm, how is this changing how I'm showing up
to you know, my other work as an artists, as
a player. I am seeing the way that the learns
from the Sanctuary project inform how I build inform, how
I let's stilitate work with me with artists and musicians,
(26:27):
Like I have this dance project called off Brand Gods
that's kind of like a rotating roster of dancers and musician,
And I definitely see how the learns from the Sanctuary
shift how I communicate ahead of time, how I let
people know what the expectations are and our agreements around it,
(26:49):
and do my best to like know what's not mine
to do and also what is mine to do of
like creating a good container to hold us and the work.
I see more the Sanctuary influencing my conception of structure
because of my role in the Sanctuary as the co
director and the areas I'm specifically involved in our operations,
(27:10):
curation and the fundraising so very much about like undergirding
structures and people being cared for, Like this balance of
caring for the people and caring for the organization, which
is about caring for the people. So I see it
more there. Honestly, I think spending so much time, spending
(27:33):
so much more time than I have in many, many
years since I was just like a teenager doing just
jobs in random companies, you know what I mean, random
odd jobs. Spending so much time with folks who honestly
have been very traumatized from working corporate ducts, are sometimes
even working in the nonprofit space. And I feel so
(27:55):
grateful for the culture and community of musicians, you know,
like we're not perfect, we have weird stuff. But when
I'm I'm learning from my colleagues at the sanctuary, who
many of them have backgrounds in nonprofit space or arts
and administration space, and I hear kind of like poor
stories of what they had to deal with day in
and day out, how underappreciated they felt, and all these
(28:15):
like weird pass of the rest of the things and
just stuff around like the office A. I feel really
grateful that we get to design something so different for
our sanctuary. That's like we I don't remember where my
friend Bronte got this quote from, but they taught me
this quote. The way we do the work is the work,
so like our intention is for our work within the
(28:38):
organization to feel like sanctuary too, and the ways that
we've had to get really creative to uphold that value
and how we do our work and still be like
a solvent organization, like we're still a business, a nonprofit business.
It makes me so grateful that, more than anything, what
(28:59):
I've had model for me in my professional world with
some of the weird stuff in music industry, like notwithstanding,
it is like generally feeling a lot of freedom and
a lot of appreciation and a lot of mutual aspects
and works facing. So when I go out, I'm like wow,
(29:22):
when I go out to the play, I'm like wow,
I feel so grateful that I get to do this
as my primary source of it, you know, with all
that it is to run your own music business. I'm
an independent artist. I don't have a big management company.
I have my own production company has a lot of work,
but we do each other with a lot of respect
(29:44):
and reverence, and I get that reflect that every time
I go out.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Well, we live seven minute stuff to the zoom. So
I'm like this my last question. Let's say as you
go and I don't know how you are on time.
I mean, if there's stuff that you want to add,
we can always talk about. It's entirely up to you.
But this may be an impossible question to ask or answer.
But I'm now I'm curious. Right, you're doing these albums,
which are the spoken albums, which are based on other
(30:11):
people's stories that you know they're going to be based
on the prompts. If there was one person in the world,
like being a musician, artist, politician, that you would love
to do with the album based on their story, who
is it?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
I think it would be von Donashiva would be one Oprah.
That sounds crazy, but Oprah. I'm trying to think. Those
are the first people that come to mind. Resmamenicum is
also a person I really admire. I think it's less
about life like they If any of those people were like, Okay,
(30:51):
I want to commission an album, it's not like Okay,
I'm gonna do it about your life. When we sit
down for that first Zoom meeting, they could be like, oh,
it's for my eight year old birthday, like they're gonna
tell me, you know. I could be like, oh, I
had a I'm having a fight with my brother and
I want to make up like these are the things
I love about him? Can you put in your song?
You know what I mean? Like I don't. I don't
(31:12):
get to choose what they think the priority is. Those
are those are some unsault Williams. Those are some people
that I just I'm curious in the privacy I was
in fault if they knew they're the only person who
would hear this record or whoever they're commissioning it for
what they would want to be put into music, you
know what I mean. That's just if I think about
(31:37):
it more, I'm sure I would come up with some borname.
But that's who came off the top of my head.
And like the the Liai Lama like like that, I
was like, whoa, what would he want? You know what
I mean? What would he like? Espronso make me a
sweet of music about curious?
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah, I love that that group, the Dileai Lama, that
would be incredible.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I mean, I don't think he's gonna cope come for
a commission, but you never knows. Maybe someone will gift
him the commission.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Okay, I don't know why the Jingo at all just
popped announce.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yes, please yes, please.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
I love to touch on the land Back motif of
this project. I think it's so interesting how so many
people just can't even imagine what that is and what
that process is, the decolonizing our present and future life.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Ways can you talk about what.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It's been like to learn and put that into practice
and you know, just imagine that possibility and really integrating
it into reality.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
The first port is slow, very slow, very relational. You know,
currently we have an interim ownership structure, which is the
land is held by the nonprofit. So like that was
the first step of getting it out of private ownership,
and like, this is a community organization, so that's our
first step of like there's a multi voice weigh in
(33:11):
on the trajectory of island from the voices of board
members who are mobile and in the arts and culture
with themselves. So it's like phase one. And then our
co director is and has been over the last twenty years,
there's a lot of deep community building work in indigenous
community here in Portland, Oregon, Native community here in Oregon,
(33:33):
and you know, they have been working on a land
back toolkit. They have been working in the conversation for
years and there still are so many valances and definitions
of what lamdback is. I think what it comes down
to is a commitment and a willingness to find out
what your specific location, relationship based version of that is
(33:56):
that really prioritizes the sovereignty, priorities and aspirations of the
community in your region. And I'll say, as a black
person who got curious about what would it mean for
like a restorative, reparative, permanent land project that wants to
(34:18):
offer space for black and brown votes grounded in their
commitment to being good relationship with the histories and the
communities of indigenous people in this land. Like that sounds
like such a mouthful and so complicated, but ultimately I
think it's grouded in a willingness to learn and a
willingness to not know the answer right now and have
(34:38):
our unique solution for our unique locale grow out of
real relationship, real conversation, and real like daring to look
at what has happened like the history of this place
and that neighborhood of Portland, Oregon, and really go, well,
what do we want to do from here together? You know?
And like I said, that's gonna look can look different
(35:00):
in a lot of different places. For some communities, land
back simply means honoring the treaties simply. For some communities
in Oregon, I've heard that explicitly, like, oh, we we
just want not just but we want the treatise to
be honored like those start there. For some people, rematriation
is give us back the artifacts of our ancestors from
(35:22):
from the university or the museum where they were taken
without our permission, you know. So I don't I don't
want to offer any sort of like a blanket statement,
but what I can say is for us, it's slow,
relational and emergent, and we keep naming it as a
commitment so that the partners we work with though where
we're really coming from, and that we're willing to figure
(35:42):
it out together and not have the answer ahead of
the time, to be supple and responsive, for people not
to feel intimidated by how daunting maybe opening up the
(36:03):
pana worms of I like to use the word rematriation
and land back is and that like many of us
didn't ask to be born here to be brought here,
you know. And when we start to wake up into
these ideas of declineal practice, it can feel so intsonated
and feel itchy and scary of like like what do
(36:26):
I do?
Speaker 7 (36:26):
Oh no?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
And I think something about like embracing the fact that
we're all part of this unfolding of like the future
of this country, of this land, which means from this
point we get to devise new ways of being a
relationship to the land. And I feel like the invitation
to have a community community visioned, intercommunity, intercultural, native community,
(36:53):
black community. Of course we have European ancestors, Americans as well,
we're all in this community together for us to come
together and say, actually, we don't know what to do, like,
but we want healing and we want to acknowledge what's happened,
and we we don't accept that there's only one way
to be in relationship with place. We don't accept that,
(37:17):
and we're saying, what is what's the most beautiful, inclusive,
restorative means we can devise within our within our you know, power,
our agency, and the particular socio historical context of where
we are. It's really an invitation to be audacious and
committed and name that commitment as we step into the project,
(37:40):
and also know that we might mess it up and
in ten years have a much more informed approach that
then we iterate because we're all trying to figure this
out together. And that's okay, you know, And I feel
also important to name that you know, nobody gets lost
in this, you know, we our practice is really about
(38:02):
modeling versions of what reparative place nicking can look like.
That involves everyone, you know, because it literally takes everyone.
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, I know you said you have to go in
a few minutes. So is there anything that you want
to add that we didn't ask about.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
I'll just say that I'm only going to be doing
this let's talk album creation through December because I have
to kind of get back to other big things in
my life. And I just yeah, just reminding people that
you can commission an album for yourself, for a loved one,
(38:45):
or get it to a friend, and yeah, just to
spread the word, you know, let's get it done. Let's together,
shows that it is possible to use our art to
sustain something like that.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Very Paul, Well, thank you so much for your time.
This is where they fart, especially in the middle of
you know, it's been a brutal week mand between what's
going out in LA and then you know, Brian Wilson's
passing sly Stone. I mean, oh yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I'm so grateful. I hope you got to see that
documentary and feel how revered and seeing he was, you
know why.
Speaker 7 (39:25):
I'm like, yeah, I just I hope he really got
to feel that hit all the like Descendants, Musical Descendants.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Last Love, everybody who came up just Live, you know
what I mean. I hope that, Yeah, while he was urtside,
he got to understand how appreciated and seen he really
was by so many. I'm just love that that documentary
came out while he was still with that soon.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
My favorite thing about the whole documentary was at the
end when they were talking got you know, it's funny
because I've known a mirror while I've inter read the
multiple times, and he knows I'm obsessed with slices. That
was like my most fascinating rock started mate, And just
at the end of the movie when they're talking about
him just getting to be an old black man, you know,
and so it's like, you think about it, at least
he got that experience.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's real. That's real.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah, because I mean, for a long time, man that
didn't look at what happened. He did the same thing
about Brian Wilson. As you know, at least he got to,
you know, get his flowers while he was around.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Okay, make sure if you when you come to one
of my consciences, make sure you come back and say hi,
both of you. Please, don't be a here, don't be
a stranger.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Thank you so much, thank thank you.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Bye.
Today, we're so excited to talk to the incredible multi
Grammy winning musician and visionary Esperanza Spalding. Spalding joins us
to talk about her latest initiative, Prismid Sanctuary, a regenerative
Net zero artists space in North Portland designed as a
land back site and healing haven for Black, Indigenous and
all bipop creatives. Prismid blends ecological stewardship with cultural restoration.
(00:28):
She has a really amazing funding project where she is
creating multiple albums for lucky patrons to help support Prisonmid's build.
It's a radical blend of artistry, land activism and mutual care.
Tune in for this incredibly inspiring conversation with Esperanza Spalding.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Your continue to do music, you continue to do all this,
but then you obviously are building the sanctuary, which is
something very special and important to you. I mean, you know,
and it's uh talk about you know. I don't want
to start with the obvious. I never do so for you,
rather than start with where the idea came from. I'm
so curious what is it that you hope to see
(01:27):
from it now? Because the station I we're just discussing
it feels more necessary than ever, not just with the
arts cuts, but in general, there's a natural reaction to
technology to want to go more again, it can kind
of go back to roots.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah, well, one of the values that we can practice
there is honoring various types of technologies. So you know,
in our commitment to become a sustainable site, our goal
is sanctuary to be ecologically and economically sustainable community, and
(02:07):
one piece of that is a lot of green information.
So in this rebuild we have cross limited timber, which
is a very modern technology, much more sustainable way of building.
We're not using any cement and we're sourcing all of
the cross all the timber for the cross limited the
(02:29):
timber from Indigenous Lead Forestry Project, Sustainable Forest Project. So
like even in that is this like beautiful confluence of
very contemporary technologies and very ancient technologies for free and
stewardship and indigenous community in our region. This part blood
and also of course we are water catchments and our
(02:51):
gray water reuse systems and our solid panels are all
these technologies that are very like of high high technology,
var modern modern era practices of sustainability. And then with
the grounds we have regenerative agriculture, and we're utilizing a
lot of indigenous technology and culture, ecological and cultural knowledge.
(03:15):
The acronym is eye tech and so there again it's like, Okay,
we have the building that our goals for the rebuilding
is that it lives in resicrocity to land around it,
and we're utilizing all these contemporary technologies that happen. And
then right alongside that, the way we tend the grounds themselves,
we're integrating this very ancient cultural practices of sustainability and
(03:38):
rest across me. And I think you know, when we
talk about a site for artists to be in their
practice and being respite, if not like so turnout your
phones and turn off your computers and like we're gonna
candle their toes. The practice of respite and retreat and
saying sure is ancient. You know that that is timeless.
It is the technology that the time and the way
(04:00):
that we're setting up our residency spaces and the whole
building is for it to feel very welcoming and accommodating
for artists in whatever practice they want to bring into
the space. If you want to do dance outdoors or
down indoors, like would be facilitate them. If you are
so mecry you just want to edit for five days
like ooh. And then you know, even in the practices
(04:24):
around accessibility, for many people, their mobility needs needs are
met by electronic wheelchairs, electric kill chairs, and so the
way that we're designing, the way the community has designed
the entire site, everywhere in the site is accessibility. People
are so like there you have it again, like using
(04:47):
ramps and pathways and you know, these these metrics that
are set by a very contemporate understanding of accessibility. But
we're using very ancient means to make that hap to
achieve that. And well that's that's not like our first
guiding principle of our organization. But since you asked, I'll
(05:11):
say it's very much about the ancient, the indigenous living
hand in hand in a harmony with our current technologies
for sustainability. And not that indigence technologies aren't current, what
are more like modern I'll the more modern technological event.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So an incredible it's such an honor to get to
speak with you. You've been such an inspiration to me over
the years and this project. I was taking a walk around.
My parents have this nature preserve up here that I
was really lucky to grow up and I was just
so excited to talk to you today and all of
this information about you know, how you're making this vision
(05:56):
come to life. I'm hoping it will inspire a lot
of other people to jump on that bandwagon and you know,
create community in their own ways around. I was curious,
it seems like you're you're really documenting this process and
you have this incredible community and you're sharing this this
(06:18):
How important is it to you to share this vision
and this message to inspire others to create that for themselves,
both internally and externally.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Thank you, Thank you for the positive encouragement, and shout
out to your parents for tandling a nature preserve that's
really important to you. I honestly, it's okay a long
time to feel ready and willing to share more publicly
about this work wow A because it's really challenging work,
(07:00):
and we know that a lot of great idea it
established and then they're there for a couple of years
and then they kind of crumble all apart. So in
some ways I wanted us to get really established and
were like, oh, yeah, like this this is gonna go
like this was going to keep going, you know. And
I think there's that the things that we are all
(07:21):
learning just from the practice of having a project like this,
they're valuable matter what happens, you know. Like if this
would have only been a three year project and if
ham and it went now was get I wouldn't have
done it. I wouldn't have felt like, oh, that was
a failure because we learned so much. Now it's five
years in and we have this solid, beautiful team and
(07:43):
the work is working, the programs are programming, the space
is spacing. I feel like, oh, we're all very clear
of the areas we have to grow, and that there's
so much still to be done. But I feel very
confident I stepping out in the world with my name
associated with this, and they like, this is a thing
that is happening that I see other people doing as well,
(08:08):
and and so I want you to succord it, you
know what I mean, Like, I think the folks you
need to do this work, and so many places are
already doing it, Like, and that's like people learning from
conversation with colleague and friends and fellow artists who are
out here tending their own versions of this and the
(08:29):
redundancy of it is really important because we need as
many visions of it as there are communities, and sometimes
as Mico communities within a community, and they each deserve
their own place with respite and support too. So part
of the like message of all of this is yes,
it's very challenging, that's very doable. And the reason we
(08:50):
archives so much is because there are very mulanced challenges
inside of this kind of work that you can't know
about until you're in it, bumping your head against it.
And so part of what I want to do, and
I share this a lot when I'm in places with
folks doing similar work, it's to be really transparent. I
want to challenges inside of it and going like here's
(09:10):
how we feel infrastructure to alleviate some of that challenge
or some of that strain. Oh, and then there's the
layer of all of this, which is like, I know
some people don't care about this girl, and that's kind
of fine, Like my job is not then people, it
is important. I know that there's enough folks on birth
understand why this work is important and want to support it.
(09:32):
I feel like my work right now is letting our
people know that we're here and we're doing this and
we're open to receive the support. And then this whole
campaign about the album is like, maybe there's enough people
on earth who don't care what it is that I'm doing,
but they want to commission to personalized album over me.
(09:52):
So there's also that layer of like even if you
don't care, don't know about the sanction. And he was like, oh, okay,
a tax seductible commission. Cool. I mean I also want
to reach those faults and like, yes, I will make
you an album. Make those donation and you get an album.
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
What drew you to that idea of garnering support in
that way? And I'm very curious about the number seven
how that came about of your well, yeah, sharing.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Open the chair. Well, I came to the idea because,
you know, I'm one of the directs. I'm a co director.
As two directors, two code directors Ecisney clings for you,
I'm one of the directors. And as we were delineating
our different areas of jurisdiction, which is an organization all
the parts have the fund raising, fell into my hair,
(10:49):
you know, And as I was plotting with our development
directly how do we and what do this? There's kind
of like a best practices that organizations do to burner funday,
And I was hearing this mapped out and thinking about
the way it's going to take me away from my
other as as the director who need to go out
and have conversations and do this thing into this that
(11:11):
I was like, I don't want to do that. I
don't want to play. I want to fact, I want
to write. So really from remembering that I'm an artist
that I make things that I think are very, very valuable,
and some other people are chewing and it's not like
how can I use the thing that I love to do.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
That I feel I do best to support this other
thing that I love so much, and so that my
supporting and caring for this sanctuary isn't like lucking me
away from this other work that I want to do
in the world.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
So that's really what I grew from.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
And I believe that original art made by musicians should
be treated with the same integrity and economic value as
are work made in any other media.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So it's also really like, yeah, my work, an original
work from me to you is worth some one hundred
thousand dollars, like yes it is, and you know it,
and so let's just let's just practice, aren't knowing. I mean,
let's practice without knowing.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
It's very cool. You know, it's very interesting to you.
Because I was going to say, I'm oh, sorry, it
was a little bit of echo.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Now.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
I was going to say, it's interesting too that you
mentioned about the you know, like the original artwork. It's fine.
I talked to so many artists about the idea of
working on film scores and how it's so different because
you're working with another person's vision. And this is very
similar in the sense of, like, you know, the work
that you're doing, as far as I understand, it is
(12:53):
going to be directed towards the people who are doing commissions.
So it's interesting if you tried anything like that, or
I mean, are you looking for because it's a different
exercise in creating.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah, I do this. This is a part of my
existing practice. Actually that isn't public Spaceman, some of this
way of creating from prompt like very specific prompts. I
want to say I developed skill at within the songwrits
(13:25):
Apothecary laugh, where you had these really purtific controlents and
or narratives and or images that need to be conveyed
through the medium of all songs. And so in that space,
I feel I've been practicing this way of writing a lot.
But also you know, for instance, this beautiful organization, important
(13:49):
of Anavision Trust is doing very deep development work in
community here party historically disenfranchised community, and they were going
to have a meeting of the school board to convince
the school board to go ahead and sell them this
like property that's not occupied right now. When I kind
out of it, I was like, ooh, I'm going to
ask you guys a song you can play in the
(14:10):
background of your meeting with the school board, just because
that that inspires me. I'm passionately about the issue. I
can't be there in person. I don't think me testifying
would be useful anyway. So I said, look, like, tell
me about it, tell me what you guys want something,
what you're asking for. And so with those I created
(14:30):
this uh like kind of like atmosphere with a little
like subliminal message or something for them to play in
the background. So all that is lay like this is
a way that I love to create. I haven't done
it out in the world for anybody, Like in a
public facing way. Granted, unless the person decides to like
(14:52):
play there the album that I make for them, like
in front of their friends of a thousand people or something,
it won't ever make it to the you know what
I mean, like once they get the vital data side
and how public or private it is. But it's a
practice that I've been honing in on over the last
few years. This way of tracting from very specific prompts.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Interesting. That's fascinating if you found that it's influenced your
own like reform creative stuff like improvisation and all.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
That well are in a way, I feel improvisation is
always a version of that. The input are what's happening
around you in the moment, though right to have somebody
displayed or the lyric and the song you're playing. I
feel this will be the first time that it's really like, Okay,
(15:49):
you give me. You give me the core elements that
you want to feel reflected back in this music, and
I'll synthesize them and create that. And the practice of
in taking what's happening, or in take the information through,
deciding it and punning it back in real time is
(16:10):
very much kind of like the deep part of the
DNA of jazz and in craft bias music as a whultring.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
It and I'm let's say it, shake it back over
a one second. But it is fascinating because I've talked
with so many artists about the idea of collaboration, and
you know, not everybody does get collaboration, but jazz obviously
is a music based so much on it, and the
people I've talked to you probably get it the most
are Carlos Santana and Herbie Hancock. And it's funny that
do you feel like, coming in this world of jazz
(16:51):
like it kind of lends you to the idea of
the sanctuary because you understand collaboration and it's something that's
always been important to.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
You interrupting, that's curious. I don't I don't know. I
don't know. I hadn't thought about how my okay, I
think the parts of my training or my mentorship, the
(17:22):
mentorship I've received in jaz that applies most of this
is it's like very deep for belief that no matter
what is going on, we're going to make beauty out
of it. And I see the difference between my colleague
when like something comes up it's like, look, god, I'm
I was like, oh okay, cool, Like, oh, what do
(17:44):
we make the best? Like, I have a lot of
inherent beliefs in like the capacity to add or sequentialize
or read organized or harmonize whatever is happening into coherent
whole that's beautiful and includes all the parts. And I
(18:07):
think that like orientation to maybe life or maybe group
projects I do comes from I think the practice of
being a jazz or an improvising musician. Let's say, so
I can say that I mean I this sanctuary project
(18:29):
is also growing out of like my direct need, but
as an artist living in a city who loves the
land and really desires space to be in community and
in my creator practice, and also desires would learn how
to cultivate that space in a sustainable way and environmentally
sustainable and then the relation with the relation and the
(18:52):
sustainable way. So it's just literally going out of my
own need and it's also going out of love for
the people who I need just work with. And like
Wayne always used to say, write what you wish for,
and I also I do that, and this is the
whole project is kind of like a composition and creative
(19:13):
expression and through it, I'm also trying to create what
I wish. I wish I had this as a model
for me, and so we get to craft it.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Very cool. Well, it's funny though, because it's just gonna
say quickly all I eat and over. But I was
just gonna say it's funny. You said, Wayne always said,
right what you wish for? Butth Big Cave and Shlia
connor told me the same things, and Sleid O'Connor said,
there's a songwriter you literally can will and do existence
things that you have to be careful. So yeah, it
makes total sense.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
As you've traversed these years of bringing this vision to
life with the community, I mean the people that you
have involved a lot of eclectic in the backgrounds and
multidisciplinary approaches. What have you learned or what has been
some of your most favorite moments in that co creation.
(20:09):
You shared a little bit about the ancient future the technologies,
which is so fascinating. I could listen to you talk
about that for hours. But what's been something that's really
stood out to you in this process.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
One thing, just to be frank, is that a lot
of us are really chewed up by this economic social
system we're really chewed up bad. And just because we
like a certain decision of a space for us to
(20:48):
be well together doesn't mean we automatically know how to
sustain that relationally. And so one big beautiful learn in
this is learning to be more at peace with the
fact that we have trauma, and that trauma tends to
(21:10):
express itself horizontally for people you're most comfortable with. And
so in this weird way, when like trauma and the
conflict comes up a it's often a sign like, oh
there's trust here. Oh okay, so we're relaxing to the
point where we can let ourselves feel what we feel
and say what we're we're hurting. It's often at that
(21:33):
clear and our dub as facilitators, as I'll say, as
steward as space is to build in a lot of
support infrastructure with skilled practitioners, with skilled mediators, with skilled
community facilitators who are deeply informed about historical trauma in
(21:59):
a generational small also just add our childhood experiences, you know,
the kind of traum born from that, and can help.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
Us field good practices in our work relationships, in our
community relationships that can kind of be capacious enough to
allow rooms for these inevitable kind of.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Challenging moments or conflicts or pains or you know, trauma expressions,
and we don't just see each other in the midst
that it actually turns them to learn, and that we
fold into the practice of the sanctuary as a whole.
Because the promise isn't we're all going to come here
and be perfecting the angels. That's not the promise. The
promise is that we're curating us space that's structured well
(22:44):
enough that we can come be ourselves and be in
relationship with each other. Our practice was land and have
support to move through difficult things that will when they arise,
and still be able to stay with each other and
stay in the space. And I that was that wasn't teaching.
I wasn't foreseeing. I didn't know that I needed to learn.
(23:05):
And it's funny how like you commit to it. I'm
sure in some way, like when you have kids, you
commit to a thing having there's no you could actually
know what it is and how intense it is, and
then you're in the intensity and you're like, well, this
is what I committed to, and then through the process
end up learning things you didn't know that your soul
(23:25):
really needed. Like I really, I didn't know that I
wanted to know these things, you know what I mean.
And just in the effort of intuning to show up
and bring help, to bring into the project what's needed.
I have learned so much about being a community member,
being a human, being a friend, being in a relationship,
(23:46):
all balances of relationship. And that's that's not even to
mention stupiding Land and being in the relationship with humans
who are holding deep skill about what it is to
Stewart Land. So I'll just I'll say that piece, yeah,
(24:09):
and then weirdly like because this is so much of
my day to day life now, you know, when I
go and do conferts now it feels like a vacation.
It feels like it feels like, yeah, like a breath
of fresh air, like so novel, so novel, so different,
(24:30):
so like fun so breezy, you know what I mean.
Because I'm still really in this like foundational phase, keeping
my attention and my energy and like you know, the
team like group think, you know, on this project. And
that has also been funny to feel this very different
way of relating to being a professional musician and I'm like, oh,
(24:52):
this is cute. It's fun. We get to go out
and like do a gig Ooh you know, its just
seem like so much work.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Let's enj And do you also feel like it's just
taught you a lot as a musician, because again there's
the sense clever and like you said, there's so much
different kinds of patience and you know, diplomacy and things
that you have to learn from the stuff you're doing.
And by the way, before I forget, since you mentioned
the you know how much fun it is to do
a concert. We definitely have to talk about the Blue
(25:21):
Miil fests now. But because Blashper is a good friend Dan,
that's gonna be real. And I know they were so
excited just ton now start with Winding Fire. Yesterday Alex
was like, thank god, we can finally say that.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
It's a secret. That's like im possible. Keeps well.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
The four guys been so busy trying to move four
months to LA shows. It's like, really, do you have
to put one more thing on my plate?
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Yeah? Yeah, I it's curious. I feel like there's been
it's so much movement and so much doing and so
much plotting and prepping intended. I haven't really like that
process a question like what you just asked of, Like
(26:07):
mm hm, how is this changing how I'm showing up
to you know, my other work as an artists, as
a player. I am seeing the way that the learns
from the Sanctuary project inform how I build inform, how
I let's stilitate work with me with artists and musicians,
(26:27):
Like I have this dance project called off Brand Gods
that's kind of like a rotating roster of dancers and musician,
And I definitely see how the learns from the Sanctuary
shift how I communicate ahead of time, how I let
people know what the expectations are and our agreements around it,
(26:49):
and do my best to like know what's not mine
to do and also what is mine to do of
like creating a good container to hold us and the work.
I see more the Sanctuary influencing my conception of structure
because of my role in the Sanctuary as the co
director and the areas I'm specifically involved in our operations,
(27:10):
curation and the fundraising so very much about like undergirding
structures and people being cared for, Like this balance of
caring for the people and caring for the organization, which
is about caring for the people. So I see it
more there. Honestly, I think spending so much time, spending
(27:33):
so much more time than I have in many, many
years since I was just like a teenager doing just
jobs in random companies, you know what I mean, random
odd jobs. Spending so much time with folks who honestly
have been very traumatized from working corporate ducts, are sometimes
even working in the nonprofit space. And I feel so
(27:55):
grateful for the culture and community of musicians, you know,
like we're not perfect, we have weird stuff. But when
I'm I'm learning from my colleagues at the sanctuary, who
many of them have backgrounds in nonprofit space or arts
and administration space, and I hear kind of like poor
stories of what they had to deal with day in
and day out, how underappreciated they felt, and all these
(28:15):
like weird pass of the rest of the things and
just stuff around like the office A. I feel really
grateful that we get to design something so different for
our sanctuary. That's like we I don't remember where my
friend Bronte got this quote from, but they taught me
this quote. The way we do the work is the work,
so like our intention is for our work within the
(28:38):
organization to feel like sanctuary too, and the ways that
we've had to get really creative to uphold that value
and how we do our work and still be like
a solvent organization, like we're still a business, a nonprofit business.
It makes me so grateful that, more than anything, what
(28:59):
I've had model for me in my professional world with
some of the weird stuff in music industry, like notwithstanding,
it is like generally feeling a lot of freedom and
a lot of appreciation and a lot of mutual aspects
and works facing. So when I go out, I'm like wow,
(29:22):
when I go out to the play, I'm like wow,
I feel so grateful that I get to do this
as my primary source of it, you know, with all
that it is to run your own music business. I'm
an independent artist. I don't have a big management company.
I have my own production company has a lot of work,
but we do each other with a lot of respect
(29:44):
and reverence, and I get that reflect that every time
I go out.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Well, we live seven minute stuff to the zoom. So
I'm like this my last question. Let's say as you
go and I don't know how you are on time.
I mean, if there's stuff that you want to add,
we can always talk about. It's entirely up to you.
But this may be an impossible question to ask or answer.
But I'm now I'm curious. Right, you're doing these albums,
which are the spoken albums, which are based on other
(30:11):
people's stories that you know they're going to be based
on the prompts. If there was one person in the world,
like being a musician, artist, politician, that you would love
to do with the album based on their story, who
is it?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
I think it would be von Donashiva would be one Oprah.
That sounds crazy, but Oprah. I'm trying to think. Those
are the first people that come to mind. Resmamenicum is
also a person I really admire. I think it's less
about life like they If any of those people were like, Okay,
(30:51):
I want to commission an album, it's not like Okay,
I'm gonna do it about your life. When we sit
down for that first Zoom meeting, they could be like, oh,
it's for my eight year old birthday, like they're gonna
tell me, you know. I could be like, oh, I
had a I'm having a fight with my brother and
I want to make up like these are the things
I love about him? Can you put in your song?
You know what I mean? Like I don't. I don't
(31:12):
get to choose what they think the priority is. Those
are those are some unsault Williams. Those are some people
that I just I'm curious in the privacy I was
in fault if they knew they're the only person who
would hear this record or whoever they're commissioning it for
what they would want to be put into music, you
know what I mean. That's just if I think about
(31:37):
it more, I'm sure I would come up with some borname.
But that's who came off the top of my head.
And like the the Liai Lama like like that, I
was like, whoa, what would he want? You know what
I mean? What would he like? Espronso make me a
sweet of music about curious?
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah, I love that that group, the Dileai Lama, that
would be incredible.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I mean, I don't think he's gonna cope come for
a commission, but you never knows. Maybe someone will gift
him the commission.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Okay, I don't know why the Jingo at all just
popped announce.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yes, please yes, please.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
I love to touch on the land Back motif of
this project. I think it's so interesting how so many
people just can't even imagine what that is and what
that process is, the decolonizing our present and future life.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Ways can you talk about what.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It's been like to learn and put that into practice
and you know, just imagine that possibility and really integrating
it into reality.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
The first port is slow, very slow, very relational. You know,
currently we have an interim ownership structure, which is the
land is held by the nonprofit. So like that was
the first step of getting it out of private ownership,
and like, this is a community organization, so that's our
first step of like there's a multi voice weigh in
(33:11):
on the trajectory of island from the voices of board
members who are mobile and in the arts and culture
with themselves. So it's like phase one. And then our
co director is and has been over the last twenty years,
there's a lot of deep community building work in indigenous
community here in Portland, Oregon, Native community here in Oregon,
(33:33):
and you know, they have been working on a land
back toolkit. They have been working in the conversation for
years and there still are so many valances and definitions
of what lamdback is. I think what it comes down
to is a commitment and a willingness to find out
what your specific location, relationship based version of that is
(33:56):
that really prioritizes the sovereignty, priorities and aspirations of the
community in your region. And I'll say, as a black
person who got curious about what would it mean for
like a restorative, reparative, permanent land project that wants to
(34:18):
offer space for black and brown votes grounded in their
commitment to being good relationship with the histories and the
communities of indigenous people in this land. Like that sounds
like such a mouthful and so complicated, but ultimately I
think it's grouded in a willingness to learn and a
willingness to not know the answer right now and have
(34:38):
our unique solution for our unique locale grow out of
real relationship, real conversation, and real like daring to look
at what has happened like the history of this place
and that neighborhood of Portland, Oregon, and really go, well,
what do we want to do from here together? You know?
And like I said, that's gonna look can look different
(35:00):
in a lot of different places. For some communities, land
back simply means honoring the treaties simply. For some communities
in Oregon, I've heard that explicitly, like, oh, we we
just want not just but we want the treatise to
be honored like those start there. For some people, rematriation
is give us back the artifacts of our ancestors from
(35:22):
from the university or the museum where they were taken
without our permission, you know. So I don't I don't
want to offer any sort of like a blanket statement,
but what I can say is for us, it's slow,
relational and emergent, and we keep naming it as a
commitment so that the partners we work with though where
we're really coming from, and that we're willing to figure
(35:42):
it out together and not have the answer ahead of
the time, to be supple and responsive, for people not
to feel intimidated by how daunting maybe opening up the
(36:03):
pana worms of I like to use the word rematriation
and land back is and that like many of us
didn't ask to be born here to be brought here,
you know. And when we start to wake up into
these ideas of declineal practice, it can feel so intsonated
and feel itchy and scary of like like what do
(36:26):
I do?
Speaker 7 (36:26):
Oh no?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
And I think something about like embracing the fact that
we're all part of this unfolding of like the future
of this country, of this land, which means from this
point we get to devise new ways of being a
relationship to the land. And I feel like the invitation
to have a community community visioned, intercommunity, intercultural, native community,
(36:53):
black community. Of course we have European ancestors, Americans as well,
we're all in this community together for us to come
together and say, actually, we don't know what to do, like,
but we want healing and we want to acknowledge what's happened,
and we we don't accept that there's only one way
to be in relationship with place. We don't accept that,
(37:17):
and we're saying, what is what's the most beautiful, inclusive,
restorative means we can devise within our within our you know, power,
our agency, and the particular socio historical context of where
we are. It's really an invitation to be audacious and
committed and name that commitment as we step into the project,
(37:40):
and also know that we might mess it up and
in ten years have a much more informed approach that
then we iterate because we're all trying to figure this
out together. And that's okay, you know, And I feel
also important to name that you know, nobody gets lost
in this, you know, we our practice is really about
(38:02):
modeling versions of what reparative place nicking can look like.
That involves everyone, you know, because it literally takes everyone.
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, I know you said you have to go in
a few minutes. So is there anything that you want
to add that we didn't ask about.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
I'll just say that I'm only going to be doing
this let's talk album creation through December because I have
to kind of get back to other big things in
my life. And I just yeah, just reminding people that
you can commission an album for yourself, for a loved one,
(38:45):
or get it to a friend, and yeah, just to
spread the word, you know, let's get it done. Let's together,
shows that it is possible to use our art to
sustain something like that.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Very Paul, Well, thank you so much for your time.
This is where they fart, especially in the middle of
you know, it's been a brutal week mand between what's
going out in LA and then you know, Brian Wilson's
passing sly Stone. I mean, oh yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I'm so grateful. I hope you got to see that
documentary and feel how revered and seeing he was, you
know why.
Speaker 7 (39:25):
I'm like, yeah, I just I hope he really got
to feel that hit all the like Descendants, Musical Descendants.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Last Love, everybody who came up just Live, you know
what I mean. I hope that, Yeah, while he was urtside,
he got to understand how appreciated and seen he really
was by so many. I'm just love that that documentary
came out while he was still with that soon.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
My favorite thing about the whole documentary was at the
end when they were talking got you know, it's funny
because I've known a mirror while I've inter read the
multiple times, and he knows I'm obsessed with slices. That
was like my most fascinating rock started mate, And just
at the end of the movie when they're talking about
him just getting to be an old black man, you know,
and so it's like, you think about it, at least
he got that experience.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's real. That's real.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah, because I mean, for a long time, man that
didn't look at what happened. He did the same thing
about Brian Wilson. As you know, at least he got to,
you know, get his flowers while he was around.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Okay, make sure if you when you come to one
of my consciences, make sure you come back and say hi,
both of you. Please, don't be a here, don't be
a stranger.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Thank you so much, thank thank you.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Bye.
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