July 9, 2025 • 29 mins
On this week's In Service Of Maren Morris sits down with cohosts Steve Baltin and Sage Bava to talk about her Dreamsicle album, her love of artists like Patty Griffin, Julia Michaels and Qveen Herby, songwriting, her upcoming tour and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, it's Steve Bolton and this week we have an
amazing and service hub for you. Were Sage, Bob and
I sit down with Maren Morris to talk about her
favorite music, the new album Dreamsicle upcoming to her, some
of her favorite people in music like Queen Herbie and
Juliet Michael's so much more. This is a great, great conversation.
(00:27):
Really enjoyed talking with Maren. Hope you enjoyed as much
as you do. Thanks. Your name came up a couple
of times. You just played we how Pride? How'd that go?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's so fun.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
It was my first Pride to perform at, so the
fact that it was the West Hollywood one felt really official.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
But it was so fun.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
It was such a beautiful night out, and the energy
in the crowd was so just optimistic and it just
gave me like a jolt of Okay, we're going to
be all right, but no, just incredibly loving crowd.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Well, now, it's funny because you Queen Herbie opened for you.
She also has to be great friends of both Sage
and I and I just had dinner with her and
her husband like last week, so they were telling me
how much fun they had opening for you, and how
lovely it was.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Oh my gosh. I've been such a fan of her.
I was listening to her albums so much during COVID
and I'm back also like a fan of her in
the Carmen days too, but like the Queen her Bee
era has been just I was. I met her that
night for the first time, and she was so sweet
and you can just tell like she's a songwriter. Songwriter,
(01:56):
and I love picking people's brains that come up with
turns of phrases like she does. But then also like
in a live way, just so fun to watch side
stage before our show.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Oh yeah, well, I mean she's such a performer naturally. Yeah,
but it's funny because you say that about songwriters. And
in fact, we also just had Julian Michaels on the
show like in the last two weeks.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Ugh, I mean, you're naming all my favorite people. Yeah,
she's such a gem of a human and I'm so
happy that, like we've been able to collaborate so much
over the last couple of years. But yeah, she's just
like a real one.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Oh my god, it's funny because we're attacking. We had
the best conversation about the song go Fuck Yourself and
how much fun she had doing that, you know, And
in fact, I was joking with her that I wanted
to write a book called The Power funk Off. She's like,
I will co author that with you. But we're talking
about how liberating that sentiment is, that it's funny for you.
Were there songs on this record that were just like
(02:57):
that liberation to just like, I mean, I think bad
Note Breakfast was when I was like, damn, I love
that one though, I love just the honesty of it.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Thanks.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Yeah, there's a couple like moments like that on the
album of just like not where I outright say like
go fuck yourself, but like definitely too Good is one
of those that's like very brash. And then Lemonade, like
the intro of the album, was also in that sort
(03:28):
of acidic lane of like I've had enough, but yeah,
it's a woman scorned who also writes songs is.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
A thing to behold, A beautiful, scary thing to behold.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
All right, So I'm gonn let's say take over one second,
but then I have to ask, who are your favorite
women's scorn songs? I mean, because there are some great
ones and It's so funny because Ashley is a longtime
friend and we were talking about the you know, the
quon to a music thing and not bringing that up.
But it's like, to me, it's the funniest thing in
the world because every great artist in the history of
the world. And the reason I mentioned this, of course,
(04:07):
as you mentioned the women's scoring is I think of
Joni for example. Every great artist has gone from genre
to genre. It's the most natural thing in the world.
So are there those artists and in fact, Queen Herbey
you mentioned Carben then going to Queen Herbie and I
mean it's Tom Waite's, David Bowie, Springsteen. I just went
into that lost set Lost albums and that's seven completely
(04:28):
disparate albums. So every artist jumps genre to genre. Are
those people that have really influenced you in the way
that they're like, it's the most normal thing to experiment.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think all of my favorite records artists,
they're so different. Like if you listen to Ryl Crowe
between Tuesday night music Club Globe sessions, like there's a
big musical shift, but you can still obviously tell the
heartbeat is Cheryl's writing her voice, and then like Patty
(05:02):
Griffin is another one that I just have had a
long time obsession with, Like Flaming Red is one of
my favorite albums, but it's also the most like sonically
ambitious album I've ever heard, and I guess it would
be considered like a rock album, but it's just but
it's Patty, So it's just like very singer songwriter and
(05:25):
folky in moments, but then like she's going balls to
the wall on these drums like to kick the album off.
But yeah, like there's so many, so many examples of
people that genre blend, genre shift. I think that's sort
of the name of the game, is not copying and
(05:45):
pasting your work over and over and over again just
to like make a buck. I think it's exciting when
people do something that's out of left field.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Well again, I think it's an artist that's the only
way to also keep yourself happy and keep yourself interested,
otherwise you're going to lose your mind.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yeah, I mean, like, I am so influenced by a
lot of always have been influenced by a lot of
different kinds of music, and I think that comes out
in my own but dependent on like who I'm writing
with or collaborating with who's producing. Yeah, I mean like
every day is different. So sometimes for me, it's like.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Like honing in on a lane.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Has never been like a thing that I guess it's
not I don't want to say it's like not my
strong suit, but it's also like not something I should
have to do. Like I love that with this record
Dream Signal, I can weave between lanes pretty seamlessly, and
it feels still at the end of the day like
a cohesive project because it's the same brain, the same voice,
(06:55):
the same heart. I think that it's Yeah, especially when
I'm going into tour rehearsals next week, I was like,
I really want to work up songs that I'm excited
about that I loved making in the studio that kept
me like going each day.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
All right, Well, I'm gonna let's stitching over one saying,
but I gotta let you give your women's scorn songs
because I actually once interviewed the chicks who you mentioned
and have opened for and they gave me a whole
divorced playlist is like the funniest thing in the world.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Wait, I want to see I have to find it.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I will send it to Ashley, who will send it
to you.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
But yes, okay, yeah, I need to know if anyone's
gonna make a divorce album, I want to hear it
from them.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
No, it was their playlist, But yeah I have women's
scorn songs.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah, I love it. What are mine? You mean?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah? Your favorite ones?
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I mean the ones that come to mind are definitely like,
because I was just listening to it, it was like,
you're so vain, probably Simon. I mean a recent one
is like Taylor Swift's like the Smallest Man who Ever lived.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
That's a really good one.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
And then also like not to like circle back, but
I just like love Julia.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Michael's EP so much. It's like I think that she's so.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Good at having a unique take each time there is
a scorn to be had. But yeah, like even with Scissors,
the one that I'm on, I was like, this is
such a beautiful way of saying, like, I don't care
about you enough to mourn this relationship. If you decide
(08:40):
to end it, It's like, I'm good either way. She
just has such a unique way of like spinning something like.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
That that's so interesting. All of the women's scorn songs
and your project and Julia's project, Like, I so appreciate
how there's this really empowered undertone to it, and you've
spoken a bit about how this time kind of served
as the catalyst for this new sound, and you've spoken
(09:08):
really beautifully about the healing power of music. And on
this podcast, we like to talk about how what motivates people,
what they're in service of, and how that really influences
their creativity. So it's curious for this time, what would
you say that you're really being in service of for
yourself that has led to this work.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
I think a really big thing of really I've tried
to do in the last few years, especially like the
last year and a half, like being kind to myself.
Like I think it's such a rewiring of your brain,
is you know, saying nice things and like having gratitude
(09:51):
not only for the things you have, but the things
that you've done and the.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Things that you are.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
I think a lot of times, like in stressful and
just traumatic moments, we just we say the most painously
unkind things about ourselves in our heads, and it just
deteriorates your worth And it's such a neurological pathway that
you're creating negativity and it's really hard to rewire. So
(10:20):
I think it's just like it seems so hokey, But
like the affirmation thing, journaling like just nice things that
you've done, is just like a way to sort of
solidify like, Okay, I'm not this piece of shit. I
think that's so easy to do when you have so
many people relying on you, and like you don't want
to let people down. And I also, like have been
(10:43):
a child performer, like since I was thirteen. It's just
very it's a long decades long road of me or
teaching myself for the first time that it doesn't all
have to fall on my shoulders.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
So yeah, that answering question.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
We have to talk more about identity, and it's really
cool how you are being just very forthright about that.
I think so many people obviously go through that, and
I don't hear those conversations a lot about how confusing
that is and how vital it is just for our
daily being. I love to know more about how you
(11:26):
know a lot of great writing people say it's subconscious.
And now that you're out of the project, have you
found that some of the songs you're finding new meanings
you're finding these kind of kind of prophetic undertones.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Oh yeah, I was thinking about in the song carrying
Me Through.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
I wrote that years ago.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
It was kind of like one of the first things
I had written after my Humble Quest record. So yeah,
definitely prophetic in the way of I was talking about anxiety.
But then it just that song that demo hung on
for so many years, even after I had gone through
a lot of personal hell and career shifting, I would
(12:17):
come back to this song that I had written prior
to all of that, and it was like me having
to listen to myself say it's going to be okay,
but you have to pull yourself out of this, Like
no one's coming to save you.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
It's going to have to be up to you.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And not to say that there aren't like wonderful people
in my life, like friends and family and people I
work with that are supportive, but like you still have
to be the one that walks through the door and
pulls yourself across the line the finish line. So that
song definitely had a spooky prophetic way of you know,
(12:58):
being a little bit of a crystal ball. But I
think sometimes your songs do like in a subconscious way,
whatever headspace you were in the day you wrote it. Yeah,
maybe you were channeling something else, like outside of you
and you didn't really let it land until you needed
(13:19):
it further down the line, I've had a few songs
like that in my repertoire that have had that vibe,
but carry Me Through is like the most recent and
like probably the most specific one.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Well, it's so interesting you say that, though, because, first
of all, we talked with every songwriter in the world
about this, about that prophetic nature and the channeling. But
it's interesting because Nick Cave, who is infinitely smarter than me,
he and I were talking about it once and the
way he put it was so brilliant. He said, as
a songwriter, you write what it is you're longing for.
So if I'm happy, I write a sad song, and
(13:54):
if I'm sad, I write a happy song. So for you,
when you look back, carry Me Through, do you realize
you were kind of or Sinei O'Connor, who was also genius,
I was speaking to her and she said before she
passed that as a songwriter you write the things like
you have to be careful of what you write because
you can write things into will you can actually make
things come true. So do you feel like you sort
(14:15):
of wrote carrying me through into into lifting yourself up?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I guess so. I mean those writers would know.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
That's so crazy though, and such like a distilled way
of putting a really what seems like a complex concept. Yeah,
Like I think it's it's energy you're putting out in
the world, Like whether you keep it to yourself or
you put it on an album for people to hear
down the line, it is something maybe you're just predicting
(14:50):
or writing into existence.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I love the Nick Cave.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Thing of like you write what you're longing for. Not
that I long for sadness, but sometimes like I'll write
a sad song when I'm not in a sad mood,
and maybe it just feels easier to access those emotions
if I'm not deeply in the like depression that day,
(15:13):
Like you can verbalize it easier when you are.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
In a lighter mood.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
And then when you're feeling like shit, you want to
write songs that will drag you out of it.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, I mean it totally makes sense.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, all right, so let's come on this tour for
one second. Since you talked about you know how excited
you are to do these songs live? What are the
ones that you're most excited to see? And I talk
about this so many artists all the time. Right, you
can have a favorite song on the record and people
are like eh, and then the track that you're like, well,
maybe that should make the record, you're even sure than
everybody loses their shit for it live, So people are
(16:02):
gonna make the songs their own. What are the songs
you are most excited to see how people respond to them?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Weirdly, it's like all the ballads.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
I I think the one I'm really excited to work
up with the band because it was just such a
like spiritual experience writing it.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
And it's literally like about losing religion.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
But the song Holy Smoke, I'm really excited to work
up with the band because there's so many layers, you
know musically that Jack Antonoff added lots of like backing
vocals that I layered, Laura Belt's my songwriter friend layered,
and it just has this really like communal sing along
(16:48):
element to it. So I think in a live setting
it's one of those songs that, like, I love it
on the album, it's beautiful we like produced it beautifully,
but you just know when you're writing something, you're like,
this is gonna slap live. So yeah, but it's like
you never know until you like road test it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
It's funny for you when you go back then over
the years you say, like, you know, it was kind
of as ballad and it's gonna slap live. What were
the songs that have surprised you most over the years.
There's ones in your catalog that you're like, this could
be cool, and then you go out there and it
just kills.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Live, kills in a good way.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, Like it's just for people to their mind for it.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I mean, there's a song from my first record, I
think it's the last song of that project, but it's
called Once, and it's just a really vocally strenuous song
live but it's so just takes you to another dimension
and I'm the one singing it, and I feel like
(17:50):
I access some different astral plane when I'm singing that song,
and it's just so guttural. But it's all also like
it has over the years, like the last eight nine
years has been like a audience favorite, even though it
was never a single definite B side and it's just
(18:11):
like a really heavy song, but live it's just this
transcendent experience and you never know that thing until you
go and do it in the show. So it's like
one of those songs I always have a tough time
like taking out of the set list because I just
know it's going to bring the house down each time.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
And when it comes to music, is you have all
these different lenses that you've looked through. So I was
curious with your creative process with Dreamsicle. Was it very
very different than past projects because you have this very
different lens now as the woman that you are. And
then my part two question is if you could tell
yourself something ten years ago, what would that be?
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Yeah, I mean there's so much going on Dreamsickle because
it was just an.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Emotionally chaotic time writing it.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I was processing a lot, and I was processing everything
while in the studio in real time, so I didn't
have time to like take a few months after some
grief event and then write about it once I had
worked through it.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I was working through it during the song writing process, so.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Like, but there are also moments of the album that
feel very true to my nature, which are like the
sort of nostalgic neuroticness of Dreamsickle the song, and I
wrote that by myself, but like it was just why
can't I get out of my own head? I hope
someday I do so I can enjoy things more, but
(19:49):
I just live up here and I really want to
break that pattern.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So Dreamsicle, that song is very much about like my childhood.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
My backstory made me the person I am today, and
there's so many beautiful things about that person, but also
like I wish i'd give her a break and like
not be up at night with anxiety attacks and like
overthinking everything. I would love to just enjoy the moment
as it's happening. It seems like everyone else can why
can't I? But no, I think there's such a like
relatability of that, And that's been one of the songs
(20:23):
that like has been so wonderful to see the reaction
of from fans is like this one really describes what
a lot of people are dealing with and they.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Feel alone in.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
But then also like this album is really deeply sarcastic
and has this element of humor that I think I
lost of like taking myself way too seriously, just feeling heavy.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And like dealing with a lot of other people's weight.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
And I feel like once I released that way, it
was so nice to be able to laugh again through
lyric And so with songs like Lemonade that No Breakfast
obviously is like very it's very real, but it's like
there's so many lines in that like that made us.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Laugh out loud when we were writing it that day.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Yeah, I mean there's there's a lot going on in
a in a fun way that's like deeply nuanced but
is like artistically interesting but.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Also just like not so serious. And I don't know,
I guess to.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Answer your question, like of what I would say to
my like self ten years ago, I guess I'd just
be like, it's it's gonna get a lot, it's gonna
get really weird, but you're gonna survive it. And one
eighty completely from what you think your life and music
(21:57):
is gonna look like, sound like your boundaries are going
to be a lot stronger, and you're going to make
better music and choices because of that, And you're gonna
have to be okay with like disappointing some people, like
they will understand down the line and the ones that
don't like you don't need to have around anymore. But like, yeah,
(22:19):
everything about my life is different, like from ten years ago,
Like I.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Have a five year old little boy.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
I'm just in a completely different headspace musically, Like my
priorities are just to be an amazing mother and like
also be a good person to myself, and like I
think that's when I write my best stuff, is when
(22:44):
I show up for myself and not like for someone
else's expectation or perception of me. Yeah, because that's easy
to like let leak in over time. Like the longer
that you make music that's you know, publicly consumed, you
can still to believe.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
The bullshit and believe your own bullshit and.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
To like detach yourself from that tether is so hard
and it's really scary. But because it just feels like
even that sometimes discomfort feels comfortable.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
And now that I've just like.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Detached a lot of it is like, Okay, I'm free.
I'm free, Like personally, I'm free creatively, I can make
whatever music I want. I feel like my fans expect
me to always throw the curveballs at them, like there's
no like status quo. Really, so I think that's like
a scary but exciting place to be in as an artist.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Well, a couple of points with that, and we won't
keep much longer. But I am curious about because I've
talked about this so many artists. First of all, when
you have a kid, it changes your whole perspective and everything,
because all of a sudden, that's stuff that used to
matter to you before, like what everybody thinks You're like,
you know, we talked about it's not long ago with James,
who's a friend, who's like multiple people who've been on
the show of Kids, and it's like, you don't give
(24:04):
a fuck anymore because all the matters your kid is
healthy and happy and at the end of the day,
so who cares what everybody thinks about the music as
long as your kid is happy and healthy. And the
other thing too, is when you get older, you definitely
get more confident. So are you enjoying this all more
now because you are more free and because you are
less concerned with what everybody thinks? Is it just more
fun for you now?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
I think some of that is just like yes, of course,
like motherhood, but yeah, wisdom of age, like making mistakes.
I think being a parent has changed obviously, the way
of like not sweating the small stuff because your priorities
have shifted and you just, yeah, like you just realize
(24:50):
all the things that you put so much precedence on
and like kept you up at night.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
We're so silly.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
And you know, there's a terrifying fact or of being
a parent because now it's like the stakes get higher.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
And you just develop this.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Space in you that like you didn't know existed for
love of that capacity.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
And that's really beautiful.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
But it's also it's really scary because the more you
love something someone, there's that human fear of like you know, doomsday,
and I guess.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
That's just the human experience.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
But yeah, I certainly enjoy my work more now and
I won't like all put that all on like my son,
like you made me love music again. That feels like
too much pressure for a five year old. But no,
I think like everything in the in.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
The pot has made it just more fun.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
I think because I just don't have the same priority
of like success or like expectations of success like buy
the book, numerically whatever have you.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
I mean, it's just I know now.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
I love the songs that I write not all of them,
like you don't hear the ones I don't like, but
I I love doing this and it's not like a
survival need of like I have to write this song
to like take care of my family, Like yeah, sure,
that's an element of it, but like I will write
terrible shit if that's my objective each day in the studio.
(26:33):
This is like I'm healing through this or I'm just
having fun writing this silly song that ends up like
being amazing.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
But it's just it's a creative process and you.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Don't know how it's going to look on the other
On the other side, you just have to like trust yourself,
trust the people in the room with you to like
see it through. And when it's fucking great, it's it's
like a superpower and nothing on earth compares.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
To that feeling. So that's why I love it more Now.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
It's like remembering, like as a twelve year old that
got my first acoustic guitar, what prompted me to stay
in my room for like eight hours without coming out
obsessing over like learning chords and writing songs and learning
how to use like a tape recorder, like that process
of just purity of self and like not knowing what
(27:28):
you're doing and no one judging it. Yeah, there's like
an element now, like I sort of found that in
my mid thirties.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Again, nice, Well, we'll let you go in one second
because we're about run out of time of the zoom.
But I have to ask you because I saw your
Zach Sang clip where you're talking about Willie Nelson and Chrystmosofferson,
both of them I got to me multiple times. Willie
I just talked to two weeks ago, and now this
is just in my head because he was telling me
to him. The two greatest country songs I've written are
(27:55):
he Stopped Loving Her Today and there was one by
Rodney Crowd and now I'm blanking on the name, but
those were his two greatest. So for you, what's the
one song you wish you had written him? Why?
Speaker 3 (28:09):
There's so many?
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Of course, I'm gonna like name a Willy Long. Oh okay,
well god, well, it's gonna be tough. I think like
Willie's angel flying too close to the ground will always be.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Up there for me.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
And this changes a lot, because there's probably like twenty
perfectly written songs in my head. But another one and
I was just listening to it the other day and
I was just like, God, this holds up like it
will never get old. Is I Can't Make You Love Me?
Bonnie Rate's recording of that. Alan Shamblin wrote that song,
(28:50):
and it's just like a perfect song.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Cool, that's actually the song that Julia Michaels said as well.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
I Can't Make You Love Me and I like have
to be connected in some weird way that is so
funny but also makes sense because like we love all
the same shit. But yeah, I mean it's just a
perfect timeless song and a legend for a reason.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
That's so crazy.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well, thank you so much.
Hey, it's Steve Bolton and this week we have an
amazing and service hub for you. Were Sage, Bob and
I sit down with Maren Morris to talk about her
favorite music, the new album Dreamsicle upcoming to her, some
of her favorite people in music like Queen Herbie and
Juliet Michael's so much more. This is a great, great conversation.
(00:27):
Really enjoyed talking with Maren. Hope you enjoyed as much
as you do. Thanks. Your name came up a couple
of times. You just played we how Pride? How'd that go?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's so fun.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
It was my first Pride to perform at, so the
fact that it was the West Hollywood one felt really official.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
But it was so fun.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
It was such a beautiful night out, and the energy
in the crowd was so just optimistic and it just
gave me like a jolt of Okay, we're going to
be all right, but no, just incredibly loving crowd.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Well, now, it's funny because you Queen Herbie opened for you.
She also has to be great friends of both Sage
and I and I just had dinner with her and
her husband like last week, so they were telling me
how much fun they had opening for you, and how
lovely it was.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Oh my gosh. I've been such a fan of her.
I was listening to her albums so much during COVID
and I'm back also like a fan of her in
the Carmen days too, but like the Queen her Bee
era has been just I was. I met her that
night for the first time, and she was so sweet
and you can just tell like she's a songwriter. Songwriter,
(01:56):
and I love picking people's brains that come up with
turns of phrases like she does. But then also like
in a live way, just so fun to watch side
stage before our show.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Oh yeah, well, I mean she's such a performer naturally. Yeah,
but it's funny because you say that about songwriters. And
in fact, we also just had Julian Michaels on the
show like in the last two weeks.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Ugh, I mean, you're naming all my favorite people. Yeah,
she's such a gem of a human and I'm so
happy that, like we've been able to collaborate so much
over the last couple of years. But yeah, she's just
like a real one.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Oh my god, it's funny because we're attacking. We had
the best conversation about the song go Fuck Yourself and
how much fun she had doing that, you know, And
in fact, I was joking with her that I wanted
to write a book called The Power funk Off. She's like,
I will co author that with you. But we're talking
about how liberating that sentiment is, that it's funny for you.
Were there songs on this record that were just like
(02:57):
that liberation to just like, I mean, I think bad
Note Breakfast was when I was like, damn, I love
that one though, I love just the honesty of it.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Thanks.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Yeah, there's a couple like moments like that on the
album of just like not where I outright say like
go fuck yourself, but like definitely too Good is one
of those that's like very brash. And then Lemonade, like
the intro of the album, was also in that sort
(03:28):
of acidic lane of like I've had enough, but yeah,
it's a woman scorned who also writes songs is.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
A thing to behold, A beautiful, scary thing to behold.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
All right, So I'm gonn let's say take over one second,
but then I have to ask, who are your favorite
women's scorn songs? I mean, because there are some great
ones and It's so funny because Ashley is a longtime
friend and we were talking about the you know, the
quon to a music thing and not bringing that up.
But it's like, to me, it's the funniest thing in
the world because every great artist in the history of
the world. And the reason I mentioned this, of course,
(04:07):
as you mentioned the women's scoring is I think of
Joni for example. Every great artist has gone from genre
to genre. It's the most natural thing in the world.
So are there those artists and in fact, Queen Herbey
you mentioned Carben then going to Queen Herbie and I
mean it's Tom Waite's, David Bowie, Springsteen. I just went
into that lost set Lost albums and that's seven completely
(04:28):
disparate albums. So every artist jumps genre to genre. Are
those people that have really influenced you in the way
that they're like, it's the most normal thing to experiment.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think all of my favorite records artists,
they're so different. Like if you listen to Ryl Crowe
between Tuesday night music Club Globe sessions, like there's a
big musical shift, but you can still obviously tell the
heartbeat is Cheryl's writing her voice, and then like Patty
(05:02):
Griffin is another one that I just have had a
long time obsession with, Like Flaming Red is one of
my favorite albums, but it's also the most like sonically
ambitious album I've ever heard, and I guess it would
be considered like a rock album, but it's just but
it's Patty, So it's just like very singer songwriter and
(05:25):
folky in moments, but then like she's going balls to
the wall on these drums like to kick the album off.
But yeah, like there's so many, so many examples of
people that genre blend, genre shift. I think that's sort
of the name of the game, is not copying and
(05:45):
pasting your work over and over and over again just
to like make a buck. I think it's exciting when
people do something that's out of left field.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Well again, I think it's an artist that's the only
way to also keep yourself happy and keep yourself interested,
otherwise you're going to lose your mind.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yeah, I mean, like, I am so influenced by a
lot of always have been influenced by a lot of
different kinds of music, and I think that comes out
in my own but dependent on like who I'm writing
with or collaborating with who's producing. Yeah, I mean like
every day is different. So sometimes for me, it's like.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Like honing in on a lane.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Has never been like a thing that I guess it's
not I don't want to say it's like not my
strong suit, but it's also like not something I should
have to do. Like I love that with this record
Dream Signal, I can weave between lanes pretty seamlessly, and
it feels still at the end of the day like
a cohesive project because it's the same brain, the same voice,
(06:55):
the same heart. I think that it's Yeah, especially when
I'm going into tour rehearsals next week, I was like,
I really want to work up songs that I'm excited
about that I loved making in the studio that kept
me like going each day.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
All right, Well, I'm gonna let's stitching over one saying,
but I gotta let you give your women's scorn songs
because I actually once interviewed the chicks who you mentioned
and have opened for and they gave me a whole
divorced playlist is like the funniest thing in the world.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Wait, I want to see I have to find it.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I will send it to Ashley, who will send it
to you.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
But yes, okay, yeah, I need to know if anyone's
gonna make a divorce album, I want to hear it
from them.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
No, it was their playlist, But yeah I have women's
scorn songs.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah, I love it. What are mine? You mean?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah? Your favorite ones?
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I mean the ones that come to mind are definitely like,
because I was just listening to it, it was like,
you're so vain, probably Simon. I mean a recent one
is like Taylor Swift's like the Smallest Man who Ever lived.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
That's a really good one.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
And then also like not to like circle back, but
I just like love Julia.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Michael's EP so much. It's like I think that she's so.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Good at having a unique take each time there is
a scorn to be had. But yeah, like even with Scissors,
the one that I'm on, I was like, this is
such a beautiful way of saying, like, I don't care
about you enough to mourn this relationship. If you decide
(08:40):
to end it, It's like, I'm good either way. She
just has such a unique way of like spinning something like.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
That that's so interesting. All of the women's scorn songs
and your project and Julia's project, Like, I so appreciate
how there's this really empowered undertone to it, and you've
spoken a bit about how this time kind of served
as the catalyst for this new sound, and you've spoken
(09:08):
really beautifully about the healing power of music. And on
this podcast, we like to talk about how what motivates people,
what they're in service of, and how that really influences
their creativity. So it's curious for this time, what would
you say that you're really being in service of for
yourself that has led to this work.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
I think a really big thing of really I've tried
to do in the last few years, especially like the
last year and a half, like being kind to myself.
Like I think it's such a rewiring of your brain,
is you know, saying nice things and like having gratitude
(09:51):
not only for the things you have, but the things
that you've done and the.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Things that you are.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
I think a lot of times, like in stressful and
just traumatic moments, we just we say the most painously
unkind things about ourselves in our heads, and it just
deteriorates your worth And it's such a neurological pathway that
you're creating negativity and it's really hard to rewire. So
(10:20):
I think it's just like it seems so hokey, But
like the affirmation thing, journaling like just nice things that
you've done, is just like a way to sort of
solidify like, Okay, I'm not this piece of shit. I
think that's so easy to do when you have so
many people relying on you, and like you don't want
to let people down. And I also, like have been
(10:43):
a child performer, like since I was thirteen. It's just
very it's a long decades long road of me or
teaching myself for the first time that it doesn't all
have to fall on my shoulders.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
So yeah, that answering question.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
We have to talk more about identity, and it's really
cool how you are being just very forthright about that.
I think so many people obviously go through that, and
I don't hear those conversations a lot about how confusing
that is and how vital it is just for our
daily being. I love to know more about how you
(11:26):
know a lot of great writing people say it's subconscious.
And now that you're out of the project, have you
found that some of the songs you're finding new meanings
you're finding these kind of kind of prophetic undertones.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Oh yeah, I was thinking about in the song carrying
Me Through.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
I wrote that years ago.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
It was kind of like one of the first things
I had written after my Humble Quest record. So yeah,
definitely prophetic in the way of I was talking about anxiety.
But then it just that song that demo hung on
for so many years, even after I had gone through
a lot of personal hell and career shifting, I would
(12:17):
come back to this song that I had written prior
to all of that, and it was like me having
to listen to myself say it's going to be okay,
but you have to pull yourself out of this, Like
no one's coming to save you.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
It's going to have to be up to you.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And not to say that there aren't like wonderful people
in my life, like friends and family and people I
work with that are supportive, but like you still have
to be the one that walks through the door and
pulls yourself across the line the finish line. So that
song definitely had a spooky prophetic way of you know,
(12:58):
being a little bit of a crystal ball. But I
think sometimes your songs do like in a subconscious way,
whatever headspace you were in the day you wrote it. Yeah,
maybe you were channeling something else, like outside of you
and you didn't really let it land until you needed
(13:19):
it further down the line, I've had a few songs
like that in my repertoire that have had that vibe,
but carry Me Through is like the most recent and
like probably the most specific one.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Well, it's so interesting you say that, though, because, first
of all, we talked with every songwriter in the world
about this, about that prophetic nature and the channeling. But
it's interesting because Nick Cave, who is infinitely smarter than me,
he and I were talking about it once and the
way he put it was so brilliant. He said, as
a songwriter, you write what it is you're longing for.
So if I'm happy, I write a sad song, and
(13:54):
if I'm sad, I write a happy song. So for you,
when you look back, carry Me Through, do you realize
you were kind of or Sinei O'Connor, who was also genius,
I was speaking to her and she said before she
passed that as a songwriter you write the things like
you have to be careful of what you write because
you can write things into will you can actually make
things come true. So do you feel like you sort
(14:15):
of wrote carrying me through into into lifting yourself up?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I guess so. I mean those writers would know.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
That's so crazy though, and such like a distilled way
of putting a really what seems like a complex concept. Yeah,
Like I think it's it's energy you're putting out in
the world, Like whether you keep it to yourself or
you put it on an album for people to hear
down the line, it is something maybe you're just predicting
(14:50):
or writing into existence.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I love the Nick Cave.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Thing of like you write what you're longing for. Not
that I long for sadness, but sometimes like I'll write
a sad song when I'm not in a sad mood,
and maybe it just feels easier to access those emotions
if I'm not deeply in the like depression that day,
(15:13):
Like you can verbalize it easier when you are.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
In a lighter mood.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
And then when you're feeling like shit, you want to
write songs that will drag you out of it.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, I mean it totally makes sense.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, all right, so let's come on this tour for
one second. Since you talked about you know how excited
you are to do these songs live? What are the
ones that you're most excited to see? And I talk
about this so many artists all the time. Right, you
can have a favorite song on the record and people
are like eh, and then the track that you're like, well,
maybe that should make the record, you're even sure than
everybody loses their shit for it live, So people are
(16:02):
gonna make the songs their own. What are the songs
you are most excited to see how people respond to them?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Weirdly, it's like all the ballads.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
I I think the one I'm really excited to work
up with the band because it was just such a
like spiritual experience writing it.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
And it's literally like about losing religion.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
But the song Holy Smoke, I'm really excited to work
up with the band because there's so many layers, you
know musically that Jack Antonoff added lots of like backing
vocals that I layered, Laura Belt's my songwriter friend layered,
and it just has this really like communal sing along
(16:48):
element to it. So I think in a live setting
it's one of those songs that, like, I love it
on the album, it's beautiful we like produced it beautifully,
but you just know when you're writing something, you're like,
this is gonna slap live. So yeah, but it's like
you never know until you like road test it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
It's funny for you when you go back then over
the years you say, like, you know, it was kind
of as ballad and it's gonna slap live. What were
the songs that have surprised you most over the years.
There's ones in your catalog that you're like, this could
be cool, and then you go out there and it
just kills.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Live, kills in a good way.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, Like it's just for people to their mind for it.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I mean, there's a song from my first record, I
think it's the last song of that project, but it's
called Once, and it's just a really vocally strenuous song
live but it's so just takes you to another dimension
and I'm the one singing it, and I feel like
(17:50):
I access some different astral plane when I'm singing that song,
and it's just so guttural. But it's all also like
it has over the years, like the last eight nine
years has been like a audience favorite, even though it
was never a single definite B side and it's just
(18:11):
like a really heavy song, but live it's just this
transcendent experience and you never know that thing until you
go and do it in the show. So it's like
one of those songs I always have a tough time
like taking out of the set list because I just
know it's going to bring the house down each time.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
And when it comes to music, is you have all
these different lenses that you've looked through. So I was
curious with your creative process with Dreamsicle. Was it very
very different than past projects because you have this very
different lens now as the woman that you are. And
then my part two question is if you could tell
yourself something ten years ago, what would that be?
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Yeah, I mean there's so much going on Dreamsickle because
it was just an.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Emotionally chaotic time writing it.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I was processing a lot, and I was processing everything
while in the studio in real time, so I didn't
have time to like take a few months after some
grief event and then write about it once I had
worked through it.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I was working through it during the song writing process, so.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Like, but there are also moments of the album that
feel very true to my nature, which are like the
sort of nostalgic neuroticness of Dreamsickle the song, and I
wrote that by myself, but like it was just why
can't I get out of my own head? I hope
someday I do so I can enjoy things more, but
(19:49):
I just live up here and I really want to
break that pattern.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So Dreamsicle, that song is very much about like my childhood.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
My backstory made me the person I am today, and
there's so many beautiful things about that person, but also
like I wish i'd give her a break and like
not be up at night with anxiety attacks and like
overthinking everything. I would love to just enjoy the moment
as it's happening. It seems like everyone else can why
can't I? But no, I think there's such a like
relatability of that, And that's been one of the songs
(20:23):
that like has been so wonderful to see the reaction
of from fans is like this one really describes what
a lot of people are dealing with and they.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Feel alone in.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
But then also like this album is really deeply sarcastic
and has this element of humor that I think I
lost of like taking myself way too seriously, just feeling heavy.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And like dealing with a lot of other people's weight.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
And I feel like once I released that way, it
was so nice to be able to laugh again through
lyric And so with songs like Lemonade that No Breakfast
obviously is like very it's very real, but it's like
there's so many lines in that like that made us.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Laugh out loud when we were writing it that day.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Yeah, I mean there's there's a lot going on in
a in a fun way that's like deeply nuanced but
is like artistically interesting but.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Also just like not so serious. And I don't know,
I guess to.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Answer your question, like of what I would say to
my like self ten years ago, I guess I'd just
be like, it's it's gonna get a lot, it's gonna
get really weird, but you're gonna survive it. And one
eighty completely from what you think your life and music
(21:57):
is gonna look like, sound like your boundaries are going
to be a lot stronger, and you're going to make
better music and choices because of that, And you're gonna
have to be okay with like disappointing some people, like
they will understand down the line and the ones that
don't like you don't need to have around anymore. But like, yeah,
(22:19):
everything about my life is different, like from ten years ago,
Like I.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Have a five year old little boy.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
I'm just in a completely different headspace musically, Like my
priorities are just to be an amazing mother and like
also be a good person to myself, and like I
think that's when I write my best stuff, is when
(22:44):
I show up for myself and not like for someone
else's expectation or perception of me. Yeah, because that's easy
to like let leak in over time. Like the longer
that you make music that's you know, publicly consumed, you
can still to believe.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
The bullshit and believe your own bullshit and.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
To like detach yourself from that tether is so hard
and it's really scary. But because it just feels like
even that sometimes discomfort feels comfortable.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
And now that I've just like.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Detached a lot of it is like, Okay, I'm free.
I'm free, Like personally, I'm free creatively, I can make
whatever music I want. I feel like my fans expect
me to always throw the curveballs at them, like there's
no like status quo. Really, so I think that's like
a scary but exciting place to be in as an artist.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Well, a couple of points with that, and we won't
keep much longer. But I am curious about because I've
talked about this so many artists. First of all, when
you have a kid, it changes your whole perspective and everything,
because all of a sudden, that's stuff that used to
matter to you before, like what everybody thinks You're like,
you know, we talked about it's not long ago with James,
who's a friend, who's like multiple people who've been on
the show of Kids, and it's like, you don't give
(24:04):
a fuck anymore because all the matters your kid is
healthy and happy and at the end of the day,
so who cares what everybody thinks about the music as
long as your kid is happy and healthy. And the
other thing too, is when you get older, you definitely
get more confident. So are you enjoying this all more
now because you are more free and because you are
less concerned with what everybody thinks? Is it just more
fun for you now?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
I think some of that is just like yes, of course,
like motherhood, but yeah, wisdom of age, like making mistakes.
I think being a parent has changed obviously, the way
of like not sweating the small stuff because your priorities
have shifted and you just, yeah, like you just realize
(24:50):
all the things that you put so much precedence on
and like kept you up at night.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
We're so silly.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
And you know, there's a terrifying fact or of being
a parent because now it's like the stakes get higher.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
And you just develop this.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Space in you that like you didn't know existed for
love of that capacity.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
And that's really beautiful.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
But it's also it's really scary because the more you
love something someone, there's that human fear of like you know, doomsday,
and I guess.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
That's just the human experience.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
But yeah, I certainly enjoy my work more now and
I won't like all put that all on like my son,
like you made me love music again. That feels like
too much pressure for a five year old. But no,
I think like everything in the in.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
The pot has made it just more fun.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
I think because I just don't have the same priority
of like success or like expectations of success like buy
the book, numerically whatever have you.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
I mean, it's just I know now.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
I love the songs that I write not all of them,
like you don't hear the ones I don't like, but
I I love doing this and it's not like a
survival need of like I have to write this song
to like take care of my family, Like yeah, sure,
that's an element of it, but like I will write
terrible shit if that's my objective each day in the studio.
(26:33):
This is like I'm healing through this or I'm just
having fun writing this silly song that ends up like
being amazing.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
But it's just it's a creative process and you.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Don't know how it's going to look on the other
On the other side, you just have to like trust yourself,
trust the people in the room with you to like
see it through. And when it's fucking great, it's it's
like a superpower and nothing on earth compares.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
To that feeling. So that's why I love it more Now.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
It's like remembering, like as a twelve year old that
got my first acoustic guitar, what prompted me to stay
in my room for like eight hours without coming out
obsessing over like learning chords and writing songs and learning
how to use like a tape recorder, like that process
of just purity of self and like not knowing what
(27:28):
you're doing and no one judging it. Yeah, there's like
an element now, like I sort of found that in
my mid thirties.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Again, nice, Well, we'll let you go in one second
because we're about run out of time of the zoom.
But I have to ask you because I saw your
Zach Sang clip where you're talking about Willie Nelson and Chrystmosofferson,
both of them I got to me multiple times. Willie
I just talked to two weeks ago, and now this
is just in my head because he was telling me
to him. The two greatest country songs I've written are
(27:55):
he Stopped Loving Her Today and there was one by
Rodney Crowd and now I'm blanking on the name, but
those were his two greatest. So for you, what's the
one song you wish you had written him? Why?
Speaker 3 (28:09):
There's so many?
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Of course, I'm gonna like name a Willy Long. Oh okay,
well god, well, it's gonna be tough. I think like
Willie's angel flying too close to the ground will always be.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Up there for me.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
And this changes a lot, because there's probably like twenty
perfectly written songs in my head. But another one and
I was just listening to it the other day and
I was just like, God, this holds up like it
will never get old. Is I Can't Make You Love Me?
Bonnie Rate's recording of that. Alan Shamblin wrote that song,
(28:50):
and it's just like a perfect song.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Cool, that's actually the song that Julia Michaels said as well.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
I Can't Make You Love Me and I like have
to be connected in some weird way that is so
funny but also makes sense because like we love all
the same shit. But yeah, I mean it's just a
perfect timeless song and a legend for a reason.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
That's so crazy.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well, thank you so much.
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