September 11, 2018 • 37 mins
Everyone has had a break up. Everyone has been cheated on. And everyone will feel a lot better about their love life after they've heard what happened in Ellyn's. Ellyn Marie Marsh is a Broadway actress, singer and comedian who went from one end of the emotion spectrum to another in a matter of months: from deeply in love, to betrayed and confused, to ultimately feeling powerful and in control. After being busted for cheating, her ex-boyfriend went to great lengths to not just hurt Ellyn, but also her 8-year-old daughter. This week on the podcast, Dan talks to his dear friend about dealing with a narcissist and what she's learned from it. She has been able to take her pain and turn it into a one-womancomedy show you can see September 17th in New York City. Things discussed on the podcast today include:Why trusting your gut is vital in romantic relationships.The signs to look out for if you think you might be in a relationship with a narcissist.How using your story can be a cure to help you heal and help others at the same time.Why it's okay to be open to receive help and love from family and friends.The importance of self-care.The value in being vulnerable.How her greatest pain helped her find a new level of strength. Purchase tickets to Ellyn's show in New York City on Monday, September 17th here: https://web.ovationtix.com/trs/pe.c/10308627 Find Ellyn on Instagram @EllynMarsh ********************************* Join the Life Amplified Power Tribe and talk to Dan about this week's episode: facebook.com/groups/lifeamplified Learn more about Dan and how he can help you add more purpose, fulfillment, and joy in ALL aspects of your life at creativesoulcoaching.net Be social with Dan on Instagram and Twitter: @CSCDanMason
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Episode thirty nine, How to Make Art from Your Broken
Hearts with Ellen Marie Marsh. My name is Dan Mason.
I was overweight, getting divorced, battling depression, and feeling trapped
in a career where I was successful but bored and unfulfilled.
And it's actually the greatest gift I've ever been given.
(00:20):
I used my pain as a springboard to discover my
life's purpose. Now I want to share the same tools
and strategies which helped transform my life with you, so
you can live life amplify. Meryl Streep gets credit for
the quote, but she was actually quoting Star Wars Carrie
Fisher at the Oscar Awards when she said, take your
(00:40):
broken heart and make it art. Our guest today is
doing just that with a powerful one woman show that
will be performed Monday, September at the Green Room in
New York City. Ellen Marie Marsh is an actress, singer,
and comedian whose Broadway credits include the original cast of
the Tony winning Best musical Kinky Boots, and she can
currently be seen in the smash hit Pretty Woman, which
(01:03):
is breaking box office records at the Netterlander Theater. But
of all the roles Ellen has played. She would tell
you her favorite is being a mom to her daughter, Lola,
and that's why a recent breakup left her broken and devastated. Now,
not only was Ellen and lied to and cheated on
by a narcissist that she was dating, he tried to
get revenge by having her daughter taken away from her.
(01:26):
I'm sure you can relate to break up stories, and
some of us can relate to being cheated on. But
when you hear the story of what Ellen has been
through over the past eighteen months, your jaw is going
to hit the floor. And in this episode, she's going
to beautifully share the experience with us. Some of the
topics will discuss is why trusting your gut instinct is
vital for the success of any relationship, the signs to
(01:49):
look out for if you think you might be dating
a narcissist, How using your story can be a cure
to help you heal and help others heal at the
same time, The importance of receiving help and love during
times of crisis, why self care is an important part
of healing and moving on in your life, And the
importance of being vulnerable and letting people know when you
(02:10):
need help. Ellen has been a friend of mine since college.
I love her to death and you were going to
love the show that she performs on September seventeen. It's
going to be at night of music and many laughs,
believe it or not, and you can buy tickets at
the link that we posted here in the show notes.
In the meantime, sit back, relax. We're gonna learn how
to make art from a broken heart with Broadways Ellen,
(02:33):
Marie Marsh, Ellen, Marie Marsh, Welcome to life, amplified, Thank you,
happy to be here. Ellen is one of my dearest
friends in the world. We've known each other for over
twenty years, which means we've known each other since we
were eleven. Can you believe it is time? Ellen and
(02:54):
I met in college. We were in the musical theater
program together at Emerson College, and Ellen is the one
that made it. You can see her on stage right now,
part of the cast to be hit Broadway musical Pretty Woman,
which is now playing to sold out houses. But you
also got a one woman show coming up septem at
the Green Room, which is inside the Hotel for all
(03:19):
my New York and New Jersey listeners. Great chance to
come out and see you built your face off, get
a lot of laughs, but also talk about a really
really serious topic. The fact that you're able to turn
this into a laugh field show is pretty remarkable. But
I remember coming to New York a few years ago
when you and I went and saw Hamilton's together, and
(03:39):
at that point you were getting divorced, and then it
was just a few months later. It's like, to be
careful what you ask for, because you might get it.
I start seeing all over social media you're in Iceland,
You're actually in love on social media, like, can we
take that back? And I was like, well, good for Ellen.
I'm so happy my friend is love. And you were
(04:01):
in that vomitously in love early stage and it wasn't so.
It wasn't put on at all. It was just spilling
out into social media as it does. And it seemed
like everything was going well as many relationships do in
the beginning, until it wasn't going well, until it was great,
until it wasn't. So what was the point where things
(04:22):
took a turn? He had gotten a new job which
took him out of town for nine weeks, and he
had an affair pretty close to immediately after he left town,
and like all things do, you just get that witchy
gut instinct that something is a miss And I was right.
And how did you tell? Because now at this point
(04:43):
he was already moving, he had moved into your house together.
We lived with my daughter, who was eight years old
at the time. So totally, when's the first time that
your spidy senses go off and tell you something feels off.
It was the night he left to go out of town.
He landed in the city he was working in, and
he didn't text me. I thought, that's weird. You know,
(05:04):
we kind of live on text messages, and as you
know relationships do you live on kind of constant communication.
And I didn't hear from him until hours and hours later,
and I thought, this is weird. And that was the
first time I had that tickle in my gut that
something was weird. It was the night he left, and
he actually told me later he did see them. That
was a big confession. So one of the big things
(05:26):
that happens with people in relationships, particularly ones where there's
been betrayal, and I can certainly relate to this, is
your intuition tells you something's off, but it's so much
easier to make the relationship what you wanted to be
rather than see it for what it is. How do
you deal with that, Like, what's the balance between trusting
your intuition and thinking, well, I'm just being paranoid. I
(05:48):
completely ignored my instinct. I knew exactly what was happening,
and I sort of made up a narrative in my mind,
and I sort of convinced myself that my gut was
an accomplice to this sort of fantasy that I had created,
because he kept, you know, reassuring and sort of gaslighting
me and saying, why are you so insecure? Why are
(06:11):
you acting crazy? Why are you paranoid? You're acting pathetic?
Luckily in text messages which the kids call receipts, So
I've got all the receipts. They may or may not
be used as part of the show thirty. You might
want to stroll down and see those receipts. I convinced
myself otherwise. I said, he's clearly not doing this. You're
(06:34):
being insecure, You're being all these things he's telling you.
But I'm the problem. I am the problem. But the
thing that I've learned in my young age is that
you know the truth by the way it feels. It's
kind of like when you get a spidy sense when
you meet someone and you think, huh, I just really
like that person. They have a good energy, and vice versa,
when you meet someone and you just don't trust them.
(06:56):
There's these six senses that we have, and you choose
to listen or you don't. And I fully did not
listen to everything. Everything in my body was telling me
how long did that go on before you found out
the truth? Like? How did you find out that you
were right? Yeah? About six weeks later. I had visited
him twice, and I flew out there for to visit.
(07:18):
It was just not right. Everything was not right. I
was meant to be there for a week and I
was there for two days and we broke up. The
reason he gave me for wanting to break up was
because he didn't want to be a step dad. He
didn't want to be with a woman with a child anymore.
Although he knew the fact that you had a child
when you started dating, and still chose to move into
(07:40):
the house. I didn't. I didn't hide her in a
box under the stairs like a puppy. No, she was
there the whole time. But about a couple of days later,
when I was accidentally going through his emails accidentally, I
found out that he was having an affair and then
from there the relationships over. At that time, I didn't
go off on him. I just said I know, And
what I said to him was exactly like this, and
(08:02):
in this tone, I said, just so you know, everyone
we know will now know why we broke up. So
know that when you run into someone that we know,
they will know that you cheated on me. And it
wasn't a threat. It was just I'm not going to
tell this fake story that we had come up with
about us being in different places in our life. I'm
(08:24):
not going to put on Facebook that you cheated, but
I'm not going to stray away from the truth. I
actually thought I was being nice. I was giving him
a warning that this is what's up that spun him
into a tailspin. Because, as you will know, with a narcissist,
when they feel like they're up against the wall, if
a narcissist can control you, they will control how others
(08:47):
see you. They're very much into image management, absolutely for
themselves particularly, but if they can't maintain that, then I
feel like they have to look to another situation. Absolutely,
so we had spoken a narcissist is isn't just somebody
who thinks highly of themselves, is obsessed with themselves, is
consumed with themselves. It's actually highly charismatic, personable people who
(09:10):
are who have winning personalities and who win people over.
Donald Trump, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Harvey Weinstein, all these people
that we now know their true colors, but they have
winning personalities. They have one historically they have won people over,
and that's the tool that they use. That's how their
(09:33):
traits are so nuanced that they can kind of slip
into your life and reread havoc unannounced. But this whole
thing took a turn for crazy town. One way ticket
to crazy Town. The stuff we're getting into now is
what delineates I think a traditional breakup from a breakup
that merits its own one woman show York because people
are like, oh, you cheated on me, People like, well, Ellen,
(09:55):
that sucks, I'm sorry, but past the beer nuts. Yeah yeah,
let's talk about the next step in this. Just a
Tuesday morning at my house that I decided not to
go on with my day, you know, go to soul
cycle and therapy because I'm a basic white woman. My
girlfriend came over and said, hey, does your ex have
a beard? Now? I said, yeah, he does. Why and
(10:18):
she said he's across the street and she said, and
he's hiding behind a tree. It's almost like a cartoon
character that gift for Homer Simpson, like falls into the bushes. Like, yeah,
I know, he was hiding behind a tree. So I
went outside. Now, mind you, I hadn't seen him since
when I found out he cheated. He came clean and said, yes,
I've cheated, So I hadn't seen him since that. And
(10:38):
I went outside and I said what are you doing here?
Just like that? And then I said, can I curse you?
Absolutely care? I said what the fuck are you doing here?
Two times? And then he didn't answer me. He just
stared at me blankly, and I said, did you come
here to talk about how you cheated? And I went
loony too, was just screaming, yelling, saying, truthfully, if you
(11:01):
gave me a list of things I would say, I'd
say sure, probably. I said that, and then he pushed
me away, which fine, I was screaming, and then I
pushed him back and he called the cops on me.
From perspective on this, I'm gonna get people to visual
you're maybe a hundred and fifteen pounds, like I'm a
hundred and ten pounds. I think i'm five three or
(11:23):
five three and a half. Yet yeah, and he was
over six ft tall. Okay, yeah, this is actually pretty funny.
The cops come and they don't want to say what
they want to say because they're stifling their laughter. And
they said, well, he says you slapped him. I was like, okay,
well I didn't do that. And he says, no, there's
(11:43):
more and he says that you threw him to the ground.
And I was like, what are you talking about? Like
what that's not even scientifically possible. They're laughing and they're like, man,
who is this pussy? And I said, that's my ex
boyfriend and he goes Jesus. They were like the coughs
(12:03):
were just we're laughing and having banter, and they kept
shrugging and looking at each other and I said, so
am I going to jail? Like I didn't know? And
they said, ma'am, if we believed the story, you would
be going to jail. Of course, you're not going to jail.
I go a couple of days later because my you know,
my parents were a little freaked out. I live alone
with my daughter. He knows how to get into my house.
(12:24):
He knows all these things. So I went to go
get a restraining order, which sounds a little dramatic, but well,
when you have a kid in the house, yeah, I
just seemed like the right thing to do. So I
went to the court house and I went to go
get a restraining order, and they actually slapped me with
a restraining order. So he took one out on you
because you're Rhonda Rousy. Yeah, and you Judo threw him
to the ground. I am Gale go doze stunt double
(12:47):
and I throw people to the ground. So I have
to go to court. Everything is thrown out because he
didn't realize I had an eye witness. It's all thrown
out of court. So then we get to the I
don't know what would what would Mike Pins call this
call it the trifecta because it was the breakup the
cops and then this. So his grand finale was I
(13:08):
was in a Broadway show at the time, Kinky Boots,
and it was intermission, and this was actually very odd
because I was holding my phone and it was silent,
and I saw that it was ringing and it was
a two oh one number, which is a New Jersey
area code, and I thought it was my daughter's school.
I was like, oh gosh, she's sick. I'm gonna have
to go pick her up. And they said, this is
Child Protective Services. We need to speak to your daughter.
(13:28):
And I said, well, that's impossible. I'm in a Broadway
show right now. When can we set up a meeting
And they said no, We're going to go get her
out of school then, and I ran upstairs and I
just told my stage manager I have to go. In
the middle of the show. I got back to New Jersey,
I peeled into my daughter's school and um, they had
found my daughter and they had questioned her and interrogated her,
(13:52):
and they had to check her body. He had to
make her take off her clothes and check her body.
Your daughter at this point is eight nine years old.
He's eight. And the reason they did all this was
he said he had called Child Protective Services and said
that I was a drug addict, that I was on
cocaine and prescription drugs, and that I beat and neglect
(14:14):
my daughter, which you know, I know for my listeners,
they don't know who you are. But all they have
to do is take a look at any of your
social media accounts to see that I don't know a
better mom in my life than you, and he went there.
You know. My caseworker who I became close with, said,
you know, we know within minutes of sitting down with
a child whether or not they're abused or neglected, and
(14:37):
what's said on her and was with a call of
that nature. They actually have to investigate you to the
fullest extent. They knew within minutes of sitting down that
this was a false call. I sat down with them
and they said, do you know who made this call?
And I said, I can clear this up with one question.
Does he have an accent? Because my ex husband is
(14:58):
English and I it wasn't him. My ex husband and
I have a very amicable relationship. And she said no,
and I said, let me ask another question. Was it
from an international number? And she said yes, and I
knew he was in Italy at the time. That's how
we were able to identify it was him. And so
for the next almost three months, I had to be
(15:19):
investigated systematically drug tested, my home was inspected, Lola was interviewed,
my ex husband was interviewed, and I had to undergo
psychiatric evaluations. They had to ask me questions that you
would never even have the answers to. They asked me
how many alcoholic drinks I've had in my life? Like, Yeah,
(15:39):
it was very strange, and obviously it all came back
and his allegations were all unfounded. Obviously all of this
in the name of revenge and in the name of
some kind of twisted, sick sort of you know, he
was trying to be a puppet master in some kind
of you know show involving all of us to where
he was the mastermind behind everything. So when you're going
(16:00):
through this experience where you're not just being called out,
I mean you're being called out as a drug addict,
you're being called out as an unfit mother. Your ex
husband is being dragged into it. A little girl who
has no idea what's going on, has already been through
enough change because mom's boyfriend no longer lives in the house. Emotionally,
what's going on with you at that point, I think
(16:21):
I was a basket case. I think I was distracted vacant, emotional, irritable.
I wasn't angry, I was sad. I dramatically lost a
ton of weight. I was just kind of a zombie.
And I never really truly knew the phrase like living
day today. But I truly was just trying to get
(16:42):
through every day with setting up drug tests, trying to
find out who my friends were, who I could trust,
who I could go to, trying to lean on people,
trying to be a good mother, trying to not let
Lola how much I was hurting in so many different ways,
trying to keep things amicable with my ex husband because
my ex husband wanted to dramatically get involved, you know,
(17:03):
trying to keep afloat. I don't know if I did
a very good job of it. If I'm honest, how
could anybody, I mean, like literally, I mean, with what
you just describe, how could anybody take I tried, But
I think that I leaned in heavy on friends and family,
and I have two girlfriends that I call my fairy
godmother's that would quite literally sneak into my house and
(17:24):
bring me food because I wasn't eating. I wasn't I
was pretty much just working, taking care of my daughter
and sleeping and trying to sort out my life. I mean,
I have to imagine at that point you feel completely powerless.
Where is the moment where you're able to just even
get your sea legs back and decide that you're going
to move forward? And how did your creativity really spur
(17:47):
you through the day that Child Productive Services said everything
was unfounded. Obviously this was a false call. How long
did that process take? It was over three months because
it fell over Christmas and Thanksgiving a new year. Yeah,
so it was you know, it was a government agencies
are closed, so it took a little bit longer. And
my case worker said to me, go get them, because
(18:11):
not only had he halted my life, he had also
wasted resources for an agency that is made to protect children.
So they quite literally wasted their time, money, and resources
investigating me in my family when another child needed that
time and money and resources another child could have I'm
(18:34):
not being dramatic when I say died because they weren't
rescued or they weren't questioned in time. So she said,
go get them. Once it was over, I had this
unexplained strength to just put my big girl panties on
and fight back, and so He has criminal charges pending
against him now for harassment and falsifying information, so his
(18:58):
court case is still pending and he faces jail time.
Once you get through this point, you would not listen
to your own intuition. How much are you judging yourself
at this point? I feel like that's the biggest part.
You can be so angry at the person who betrayed you,
you know. I know in my experience with the narcissist,
I was more pissed at myself though, So you feel tried.
(19:20):
It was like, you're an idiot? How did you not know? Absolutely?
How severe was that for you? That was pretty bad. Also,
I was dealing with the guilt of bringing this sort
of monster into my daughter's life, and with the help
of friends, you said this to me my therapist, saying,
you can't put that on yourself, you know, because I
(19:42):
felt this guilt of getting choked up. I felt this
guilt of bringing this man into her life, and you know,
she's a child. That was the hardest thing to get over.
But being a strong person, or thinking you're a strong person,
thinking you're smart person, thinking your you have good intuition,
and then being duped so bad, you just feel like
(20:06):
an idiot. And then you go back. I don't know
if you did this with your ex wife. You go
back and you said there was a sign I ignored.
There was a sign I ignored, and then you really
trace it back, and I was able to trace it
so far back to things that I don't think I
ignored it. I think I chose not to see it
because you're in love and you're happy. And that's what
(20:28):
a narcissist does, is they cloud everything they have to
win over your happiness and your trust in order to
ultimately betray you and with you know, tactics such as
gas lighting and making you feel that you're mentally incompetent,
you go to yourself first. I can actually correlate that
to being on stage if someone drops a line, you know,
(20:51):
something goes wrong. My first instinct is, what did you do? Ellen? Yeah,
what did you do? It's your line? Say something? So
you think those things things. And because he sort of
really did a number on me mentally, I really really
beat myself up again and again, and I still, you
know something to this day, you know, I'm I am,
(21:11):
you know, quote over the relationship. I don't think I'll
be over I don't know if I'll ever be over
what he did to Lola. But the creativity part of
it came when I said, I have a voice, and
I have some kind of a platform, and I have
a monicum of talent, and I can use this to
(21:32):
kind of share this story because I can't be the
only one. And I did the show in May, and
I wasn't the only one. And I got so many
emails and Facebook messages from people I didn't know, from
women I didn't know, saying, oh my gosh, this helped
me feel like I wasn't alone. I thought I was
(21:53):
so dumb. I thought I was so stupid. I thought
I was crazy. I thought it was dramatic, all of
these things that you know, these and had embedded into
their brain. And then I thought, well, this is a
really personal show. I'm just going to do it for
this room, for close friends. You came and my mom
flew out, and I thought this is it. But then
I realized that the platform to speak about emotional abuse
(22:17):
was there, and there wasn't anybody standing up and talking
about it. You know, the Me Too movement was sexual harassment,
and we've we know about physical abuse, but mental abuse
is so embarrassing. I think that people stray away from
it because there is a part of you that just
feels so embarrassed and so dumb for falling for the
(22:40):
act of a narcissist. It just doesn't get spoken about.
You know, if if a woman gets hit by a man, well,
obviously he's bigger than you. You couldn't defend yourself. If
a woman gets sexually harassed while a man was using
his power over you to get what he wanted, but
being an emotionally abused you agree to it, there's some
part that agrees, that says, Okay, that's embarrassing to admit. Yeah,
(23:02):
you know, you did the show in May and it
was incredible. Way, it was a beautiful night. Somehow you
do all this and still managed to make it a
night of laughs, which is only you, Ellen marsh only you.
How's it changed now is the story has continued to unfold,
and what can people expect when they come September sev Well,
I had originally set this date, if I'm being honest,
(23:24):
with the plan of having an ending to the story,
because I thought the trial would be done by now.
And what I've learned is that the judicial system has
its own timeline of which I'm not privy to, and
it's not done, so I guess I was expecting to
have it wrapped up in a neat little bow, and
that's actually not going to happen. So I'm just accepting that,
(23:44):
as you know, that's not the way it's going to be.
What I am changing is I'm changing a little bit
of the storytelling, and I think I'm sort of streamlining
and clearing up the focus of it, which is sort
of the clearing up about what, you know, what makes
a narcissist and um, the narcissistic abuse. I was really
inspired by the Hannah Gadsby special Ninette. Yes, a lot
(24:04):
of people talking about that on Netflix. Yeah, and she
said this line that reas I mean, there were so
many things that she said that resonated with me and
a lot of people. One of the things she said
was our stories are our cure, you know, talking about
things that happened in getting it out telling. Our stories
are part of our cure. And there was another one.
(24:24):
Nothing is louder or more powerful than a woman who
has been broken, who picks herself up again and has
been broken. I can't remember the exact quote. But I
was very, very moved, and I had a couple of
people say to me that your show kind of reminded
me of it because it was sort of a bait
and switch her show, which you sit down and you
think it's gonna be a comedy special, but it's sort
(24:45):
of morphs into more of a Ted Talks and I
kind of liked that format. And the hardest thing about
my show was telling the story about Lola, because your daughter,
Lola is my daughter. Yeah, telling the story about what
happened to her was the part I was most scared
about because I'm fine with being funny, and I'm fine
with I think any story with enough finesse can be funny.
(25:07):
That's part of what comedy is is taking an uncomfortable
situation and making it funny somehow. Kevin Hart talks about
his drug addicted in and out of prison dad, and
it's hilarious. Obviously that comes from one of his specials
was called laugh at My Pain, and I think that's
a brilliant way to explain what comedy is. It's laughing
(25:28):
at our pain. I know, at least for me. When
I think back on my radio days, and I always
sort of done being the funny guy in every situation.
You know, it was a way to be seen, but
it was also a way to not really feel the
underlying emotions. Humor is a great defense mechanism to keep
you from feeling the unpleasant emotions. How do you ride
that mine in your life between knowing that you fully
(25:50):
grieved everything that happened and it's okay to laugh, or
maybe just using it is a way to not feel.
I think I did. I mean, I think I felt
all the emotions. I think I of through it. But um,
I think that you were calling the show that I
kind of took the emotional sections and did deflect a
(26:10):
little with laughter. I feel like I went through it
and I felt it enough that I could find the funny.
You know, even the section about Lola, I talk about
that note that she left me, if you'll recall, I
dissect this note that she left me and that's funny,
and then I referred back to it because I think
in any tense situation, I think an audience is just
(26:33):
dying to laugh when they're tense, because in our brains,
the chemicals that are you know, sadness, great sadness, great anger,
great joy are all the same, and I think that
with great sadness can come lefter. I mean, it's it's
the same thing you know when you're at a funeral
and someone makes a joke and it's everyone kind of
(26:55):
needs that release, and I think that laughter can kind
of do that in a tense situation. What have you
learned about vulnerability through this process? I was telling you
before we even rolled today. You and I have been
friends for over two decades, but you know they're having
We hang out, we get along, it's great. But I've
told you before, it's like, there's times when I always
felt like, what's really going on? What did you used
(27:17):
to believe about vulnerability? And now that you've shared this
story so bravely and you've turned it into a show,
what do you believe now? I think I used to
confuse vulnerability with weakness and think that I don't need
to not saying cry or get upset. I definitely did,
but I never needed to show that to anyone. I
needed never needed to show anyone that I was hurt,
(27:38):
and I never needed to show anyone the sad things
in life. And this was so epically horrible that I
think that it actually did the opposite and showed my
strength in sharing the story because it was hard, and
it still is hard, and if anyone you know is
able to come to the show, there are parts that
are difficult for me to get through even now, even
(28:00):
now feeling great and happy and positive, and I'm in
a great show. I love my job, I love my daughter.
Everything is sort of you know, in line, but it's
still hard to get through. And I think that being
vulnerable is quite the opposite of what I thought it was.
I think being vulnerable takes a great amount of strength,
and I think there's a time and a place. I
(28:22):
don't think we all need to walk around with, you know,
our hearts wide open and completely vulnerable. But I have
learned that it's okay to let people take care of
you a little, allowing yourself to actually receive the love
and the attention, and especially for somebody like you, who's
so wired to take care of other people. Eat so funny.
(28:43):
Even today, I hurt my finger and my dance partner.
It would really hurt. It was like one of those
odd things. And even my dance partner didn't know I was.
He thought I was sick to my stomach because I
kept looking down because I didn't want him to know
I was hurt, because they didn't want him to dote
on me or say like are you okay? Are you okay?
And he goes, I did to even know you hurt yourself.
You were looking down because I was crying because it
(29:04):
hurts so bad. I just wanted to kind of like
cry it out and go on with the show. And
that was it. So yeah, there are still times where
that kind of like tough broad kind of creeps back
in for somebody listening today who thinks they might be
dating a narcissist. So, yeah, what would be three telltale
signs for somebody from your experience that would be the
biggest red flags for somebody who's questioning. Obviously a narcissist
(29:26):
to someone who is consumed with themselves and need constant attention, Right,
that's the obvious trait of a narcissist. But the sort
of more subtle traits are somebody who gas lighting. You know,
if there's a problem flipping the script, changing the narrative,
making it about you, blaming you for why why it's happened.
(29:46):
The problem isn't the abuse, it's your reaction to right,
It's not what I'm doing to you, it's how you're
reacting to me. So ultimately that deflection um coming back,
and then that's coupled with gas lighting. Then I would
say one of the more dangerous characteristics, I guess is
being consumed with how others perceive, even sort of like
(30:09):
small natural human missteps, making sure everything is you know, perceive.
It's all sort of an act. What they do is
they you know, they can drain you emotionally, they can
drain you financially, they can drain you your your time,
your energy, your family, and they love to turn people
against you. Ultimately, his goal with all of the sort
(30:30):
of drama that he brought into my life was also
he wasn't the bad guy. He wanted me to be
the bad guy because he had cheated on me with
you know, I was a single mom, and he didn't
want to face that. He didn't want to be the
bad guy, so his only exit strategy was to make
me the bad guy. Well, look she's going to jail.
Well look someone's taking her kid away. And it was
(30:53):
just the ultimate deflection for him to not be the
bad guy. And I mean, there has never been such
a complete three sixty back, you know, boomerang completely back
to him as the trouble he made for himself and
for somebody who is healing right now from a breakup
with a narcissistic person. What would be a couple meaningful
(31:14):
action steps that you could give to somebody who's just
going through it, or maybe they're on those first couple
of steps. How do you rebound? How do you find
yourself again? Well, I would say don't do what I did,
which is keep telling everyone you're okay, because I wasn't okay,
and I kept saying I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm fine,
I'm great, I'm okay, and I wasn't. I wasn't fooling
anyone except for myself. Everybody could see, you know, your emotions.
(31:37):
People's hair turn gray, they age, not saying I do
you know? It manifests itself outwardly. So I think the
thing that is okay to do is to lean on people.
I think there's such a guilt in um, Hey, how
you doing. Yeah, I'm good, you know. But then there
are the people, your your people, your people, whoever that
might be a brother or sister, a friend, a coworker.
(32:00):
They say, are you okay, and it's okay to say
I'm actually just not today, and you know, saying why
and talking. I would not have been able to get
through without people checking in and letting me talk and
letting me talk it out and letting me be crazy
and letting me be sad, because you can't do it
by yourself, because it's not a regular breakup. Breaking up
(32:22):
with a narcissist is someone who is using tactics and
implementing different forms of abuse to make you feel bad
about yourself. And we don't have the toolbox for that.
Most people don't, at least, you know, everybody can sympathize
and relate to the emotion of hurt, right everybody there.
That is one emotion that everybody can relate to, But
(32:44):
how we deal with it and our gauge and our
tolerance for it is always going to be different. Accepting
that help and self care. I never I never knew
this self care thing you all people talk about. It's great,
You're like, I thought that was some life coaching bullshit. Yeah,
I like, oh wow, I enjoy the self care. What
does the self care look like for you? Because it's
(33:05):
different for everybody. Allowing myself to sit on the couch
and watch TV. I always thought I needed to be
doing something and being a productive member of society, getting massages,
going into the sauna, the spa, Like I never gave
myself those things making myself feel good, putting on nice clothes,
doing the girly things that make me feel good, getting
a blowout. I know that sounds crazy, but it just
(33:27):
made me feel better about myself, spending time with friends
and going out to dinner and not feeling feeling guilty
about spending too much money on something. Yeah, is there
any part of you that like looking back in hindsight,
looking at your evolution as a woman, as just a
human on the planet, as a mom? Is there any
part of you now that can that has enough in
(33:50):
the rear view mirror where maybe you can find any
It's a weird word to say, and I don't wanna
because I would never wish this experience on anybody, But
do you find an a gift in it for you
in terms of what it's allowed, what it's brought out
of you, either as a person or as an artist.
I think the kind of the vulnerability that we talked about.
(34:11):
I don't know if you felt it in my show
when you saw it, But I felt really in control
of what I was saying and doing. And I think
that knowing that sort of everyone's story has value and
that if you want to tell your story you can.
I mean, I guess that's the only gift. And just
(34:35):
knowing that, I guess how strong we are, thinking back
to where I was a year ago and thinking that
I couldn't get up off the floor, and then thinking, really,
you just think this is never gonna end. You think
I Am never gonna be okay, And just knowing how
strong we actually are. I guess that's a gift because
(34:57):
I don't think I ever really knew. I knew I
was because people told me I was. You had never
experienced it or integrated it. Well, you're such a strong woman,
I think because people equate that with maybe having a
career and a presence and a child, but then seeing like,
oh no, I am fucking wonder woman you are. I
(35:21):
think that was probably the gift. The show is Ellen,
Marie Marsh, I'm sorry what has happened. In Monday night,
September at the green Room, We'll put a link. There's
still some tickets available at least as of the day
we're recording this, so we'll get some We'll get that
link up in the show notes. My friend, I love you.
I've always admired your talent, but just seeing what all
(35:44):
this is created in your life and just seeing where
you're at right now has been amazing to watch you.
You're the best. Thanks for having me. If you're one
of my listeners in New York and New Jersey, this
is going to be such a powerful, amazing, beautiful night
of entertainment September sevent I'm going to be at the show.
I would love to say hi to you if you're there.
(36:05):
Tickets for I'm Sorry What are on sale now. You
can find the link here in the show notes. And
if you enjoyed the content that you heard today, let
Ellen and I know you're listening. You can screenshop this podcast,
upload it to Twitter or Instagram. You can tag me
at c sc Dan Mason, and you can tag her
at Ellen marsh That is Ellen with a Why. Also,
(36:25):
if you're loving the podcast, give us a follow here
on the I Heart Radio app or click subscribe wherever
you listen to your favorite podcast. And don't forget those
five star ratings and reviews are always welcome, not for
my sake, but it does help us get this content
out there to more people and help with our placements
on the Apple New and Noteworthy section. Thank you so
much for taking a few minutes to listen today. If
(36:48):
you're looking for some coaching to help you break through
to the next level in your career in life, you
can find out how to work with me at my
website Creative Soul Coaching dot nets. And while you're there,
you can schedule a complimentary thirty minute discovery called with Me.
We'll be back next week. In the meantime, turn down
the volume on your negativity, turn up the volume on
your purpose so you can live life amplified. We'll talk
(37:10):
to you next time.
Episode thirty nine, How to Make Art from Your Broken
Hearts with Ellen Marie Marsh. My name is Dan Mason.
I was overweight, getting divorced, battling depression, and feeling trapped
in a career where I was successful but bored and unfulfilled.
And it's actually the greatest gift I've ever been given.
(00:20):
I used my pain as a springboard to discover my
life's purpose. Now I want to share the same tools
and strategies which helped transform my life with you, so
you can live life amplify. Meryl Streep gets credit for
the quote, but she was actually quoting Star Wars Carrie
Fisher at the Oscar Awards when she said, take your
(00:40):
broken heart and make it art. Our guest today is
doing just that with a powerful one woman show that
will be performed Monday, September at the Green Room in
New York City. Ellen Marie Marsh is an actress, singer,
and comedian whose Broadway credits include the original cast of
the Tony winning Best musical Kinky Boots, and she can
currently be seen in the smash hit Pretty Woman, which
(01:03):
is breaking box office records at the Netterlander Theater. But
of all the roles Ellen has played. She would tell
you her favorite is being a mom to her daughter, Lola,
and that's why a recent breakup left her broken and devastated. Now,
not only was Ellen and lied to and cheated on
by a narcissist that she was dating, he tried to
get revenge by having her daughter taken away from her.
(01:26):
I'm sure you can relate to break up stories, and
some of us can relate to being cheated on. But
when you hear the story of what Ellen has been
through over the past eighteen months, your jaw is going
to hit the floor. And in this episode, she's going
to beautifully share the experience with us. Some of the
topics will discuss is why trusting your gut instinct is
vital for the success of any relationship, the signs to
(01:49):
look out for if you think you might be dating
a narcissist, How using your story can be a cure
to help you heal and help others heal at the
same time, The importance of receiving help and love during
times of crisis, why self care is an important part
of healing and moving on in your life, And the
importance of being vulnerable and letting people know when you
(02:10):
need help. Ellen has been a friend of mine since college.
I love her to death and you were going to
love the show that she performs on September seventeen. It's
going to be at night of music and many laughs,
believe it or not, and you can buy tickets at
the link that we posted here in the show notes.
In the meantime, sit back, relax. We're gonna learn how
to make art from a broken heart with Broadways Ellen,
(02:33):
Marie Marsh, Ellen, Marie Marsh, Welcome to life, amplified, Thank you,
happy to be here. Ellen is one of my dearest
friends in the world. We've known each other for over
twenty years, which means we've known each other since we
were eleven. Can you believe it is time? Ellen and
(02:54):
I met in college. We were in the musical theater
program together at Emerson College, and Ellen is the one
that made it. You can see her on stage right now,
part of the cast to be hit Broadway musical Pretty Woman,
which is now playing to sold out houses. But you
also got a one woman show coming up septem at
the Green Room, which is inside the Hotel for all
(03:19):
my New York and New Jersey listeners. Great chance to
come out and see you built your face off, get
a lot of laughs, but also talk about a really
really serious topic. The fact that you're able to turn
this into a laugh field show is pretty remarkable. But
I remember coming to New York a few years ago
when you and I went and saw Hamilton's together, and
(03:39):
at that point you were getting divorced, and then it
was just a few months later. It's like, to be
careful what you ask for, because you might get it.
I start seeing all over social media you're in Iceland,
You're actually in love on social media, like, can we
take that back? And I was like, well, good for Ellen.
I'm so happy my friend is love. And you were
(04:01):
in that vomitously in love early stage and it wasn't so.
It wasn't put on at all. It was just spilling
out into social media as it does. And it seemed
like everything was going well as many relationships do in
the beginning, until it wasn't going well, until it was great,
until it wasn't. So what was the point where things
(04:22):
took a turn? He had gotten a new job which
took him out of town for nine weeks, and he
had an affair pretty close to immediately after he left town,
and like all things do, you just get that witchy
gut instinct that something is a miss And I was right.
And how did you tell? Because now at this point
(04:43):
he was already moving, he had moved into your house together.
We lived with my daughter, who was eight years old
at the time. So totally, when's the first time that
your spidy senses go off and tell you something feels off.
It was the night he left to go out of town.
He landed in the city he was working in, and
he didn't text me. I thought, that's weird. You know,
(05:04):
we kind of live on text messages, and as you
know relationships do you live on kind of constant communication.
And I didn't hear from him until hours and hours later,
and I thought, this is weird. And that was the
first time I had that tickle in my gut that
something was weird. It was the night he left, and
he actually told me later he did see them. That
was a big confession. So one of the big things
(05:26):
that happens with people in relationships, particularly ones where there's
been betrayal, and I can certainly relate to this, is
your intuition tells you something's off, but it's so much
easier to make the relationship what you wanted to be
rather than see it for what it is. How do
you deal with that, Like, what's the balance between trusting
your intuition and thinking, well, I'm just being paranoid. I
(05:48):
completely ignored my instinct. I knew exactly what was happening,
and I sort of made up a narrative in my mind,
and I sort of convinced myself that my gut was
an accomplice to this sort of fantasy that I had created,
because he kept, you know, reassuring and sort of gaslighting
me and saying, why are you so insecure? Why are
(06:11):
you acting crazy? Why are you paranoid? You're acting pathetic?
Luckily in text messages which the kids call receipts, So
I've got all the receipts. They may or may not
be used as part of the show thirty. You might
want to stroll down and see those receipts. I convinced
myself otherwise. I said, he's clearly not doing this. You're
(06:34):
being insecure, You're being all these things he's telling you.
But I'm the problem. I am the problem. But the
thing that I've learned in my young age is that
you know the truth by the way it feels. It's
kind of like when you get a spidy sense when
you meet someone and you think, huh, I just really
like that person. They have a good energy, and vice versa,
when you meet someone and you just don't trust them.
(06:56):
There's these six senses that we have, and you choose
to listen or you don't. And I fully did not
listen to everything. Everything in my body was telling me
how long did that go on before you found out
the truth? Like? How did you find out that you
were right? Yeah? About six weeks later. I had visited
him twice, and I flew out there for to visit.
(07:18):
It was just not right. Everything was not right. I
was meant to be there for a week and I
was there for two days and we broke up. The
reason he gave me for wanting to break up was
because he didn't want to be a step dad. He
didn't want to be with a woman with a child anymore.
Although he knew the fact that you had a child
when you started dating, and still chose to move into
(07:40):
the house. I didn't. I didn't hide her in a
box under the stairs like a puppy. No, she was
there the whole time. But about a couple of days later,
when I was accidentally going through his emails accidentally, I
found out that he was having an affair and then
from there the relationships over. At that time, I didn't
go off on him. I just said I know, And
what I said to him was exactly like this, and
(08:02):
in this tone, I said, just so you know, everyone
we know will now know why we broke up. So
know that when you run into someone that we know,
they will know that you cheated on me. And it
wasn't a threat. It was just I'm not going to
tell this fake story that we had come up with
about us being in different places in our life. I'm
(08:24):
not going to put on Facebook that you cheated, but
I'm not going to stray away from the truth. I
actually thought I was being nice. I was giving him
a warning that this is what's up that spun him
into a tailspin. Because, as you will know, with a narcissist,
when they feel like they're up against the wall, if
a narcissist can control you, they will control how others
(08:47):
see you. They're very much into image management, absolutely for
themselves particularly, but if they can't maintain that, then I
feel like they have to look to another situation. Absolutely,
so we had spoken a narcissist is isn't just somebody
who thinks highly of themselves, is obsessed with themselves, is
consumed with themselves. It's actually highly charismatic, personable people who
(09:10):
are who have winning personalities and who win people over.
Donald Trump, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Harvey Weinstein, all these people
that we now know their true colors, but they have
winning personalities. They have one historically they have won people over,
and that's the tool that they use. That's how their
(09:33):
traits are so nuanced that they can kind of slip
into your life and reread havoc unannounced. But this whole
thing took a turn for crazy town. One way ticket
to crazy Town. The stuff we're getting into now is
what delineates I think a traditional breakup from a breakup
that merits its own one woman show York because people
are like, oh, you cheated on me, People like, well, Ellen,
(09:55):
that sucks, I'm sorry, but past the beer nuts. Yeah yeah,
let's talk about the next step in this. Just a
Tuesday morning at my house that I decided not to
go on with my day, you know, go to soul
cycle and therapy because I'm a basic white woman. My
girlfriend came over and said, hey, does your ex have
a beard? Now? I said, yeah, he does. Why and
(10:18):
she said he's across the street and she said, and
he's hiding behind a tree. It's almost like a cartoon
character that gift for Homer Simpson, like falls into the bushes. Like, yeah,
I know, he was hiding behind a tree. So I
went outside. Now, mind you, I hadn't seen him since
when I found out he cheated. He came clean and said, yes,
I've cheated, So I hadn't seen him since that. And
(10:38):
I went outside and I said what are you doing here?
Just like that? And then I said, can I curse you?
Absolutely care? I said what the fuck are you doing here?
Two times? And then he didn't answer me. He just
stared at me blankly, and I said, did you come
here to talk about how you cheated? And I went
loony too, was just screaming, yelling, saying, truthfully, if you
(11:01):
gave me a list of things I would say, I'd
say sure, probably. I said that, and then he pushed
me away, which fine, I was screaming, and then I
pushed him back and he called the cops on me.
From perspective on this, I'm gonna get people to visual
you're maybe a hundred and fifteen pounds, like I'm a
hundred and ten pounds. I think i'm five three or
(11:23):
five three and a half. Yet yeah, and he was
over six ft tall. Okay, yeah, this is actually pretty funny.
The cops come and they don't want to say what
they want to say because they're stifling their laughter. And
they said, well, he says you slapped him. I was like, okay,
well I didn't do that. And he says, no, there's
(11:43):
more and he says that you threw him to the ground.
And I was like, what are you talking about? Like
what that's not even scientifically possible. They're laughing and they're like, man,
who is this pussy? And I said, that's my ex
boyfriend and he goes Jesus. They were like the coughs
(12:03):
were just we're laughing and having banter, and they kept
shrugging and looking at each other and I said, so
am I going to jail? Like I didn't know? And
they said, ma'am, if we believed the story, you would
be going to jail. Of course, you're not going to jail.
I go a couple of days later because my you know,
my parents were a little freaked out. I live alone
with my daughter. He knows how to get into my house.
(12:24):
He knows all these things. So I went to go
get a restraining order, which sounds a little dramatic, but well,
when you have a kid in the house, yeah, I
just seemed like the right thing to do. So I
went to the court house and I went to go
get a restraining order, and they actually slapped me with
a restraining order. So he took one out on you
because you're Rhonda Rousy. Yeah, and you Judo threw him
to the ground. I am Gale go doze stunt double
(12:47):
and I throw people to the ground. So I have
to go to court. Everything is thrown out because he
didn't realize I had an eye witness. It's all thrown
out of court. So then we get to the I
don't know what would what would Mike Pins call this
call it the trifecta because it was the breakup the
cops and then this. So his grand finale was I
(13:08):
was in a Broadway show at the time, Kinky Boots,
and it was intermission, and this was actually very odd
because I was holding my phone and it was silent,
and I saw that it was ringing and it was
a two oh one number, which is a New Jersey
area code, and I thought it was my daughter's school.
I was like, oh gosh, she's sick. I'm gonna have
to go pick her up. And they said, this is
Child Protective Services. We need to speak to your daughter.
(13:28):
And I said, well, that's impossible. I'm in a Broadway
show right now. When can we set up a meeting
And they said no, We're going to go get her
out of school then, and I ran upstairs and I
just told my stage manager I have to go. In
the middle of the show. I got back to New Jersey,
I peeled into my daughter's school and um, they had
found my daughter and they had questioned her and interrogated her,
(13:52):
and they had to check her body. He had to
make her take off her clothes and check her body.
Your daughter at this point is eight nine years old.
He's eight. And the reason they did all this was
he said he had called Child Protective Services and said
that I was a drug addict, that I was on
cocaine and prescription drugs, and that I beat and neglect
(14:14):
my daughter, which you know, I know for my listeners,
they don't know who you are. But all they have
to do is take a look at any of your
social media accounts to see that I don't know a
better mom in my life than you, and he went there.
You know. My caseworker who I became close with, said,
you know, we know within minutes of sitting down with
a child whether or not they're abused or neglected, and
(14:37):
what's said on her and was with a call of
that nature. They actually have to investigate you to the
fullest extent. They knew within minutes of sitting down that
this was a false call. I sat down with them
and they said, do you know who made this call?
And I said, I can clear this up with one question.
Does he have an accent? Because my ex husband is
(14:58):
English and I it wasn't him. My ex husband and
I have a very amicable relationship. And she said no,
and I said, let me ask another question. Was it
from an international number? And she said yes, and I
knew he was in Italy at the time. That's how
we were able to identify it was him. And so
for the next almost three months, I had to be
(15:19):
investigated systematically drug tested, my home was inspected, Lola was interviewed,
my ex husband was interviewed, and I had to undergo
psychiatric evaluations. They had to ask me questions that you
would never even have the answers to. They asked me
how many alcoholic drinks I've had in my life? Like, Yeah,
(15:39):
it was very strange, and obviously it all came back
and his allegations were all unfounded. Obviously all of this
in the name of revenge and in the name of
some kind of twisted, sick sort of you know, he
was trying to be a puppet master in some kind
of you know show involving all of us to where
he was the mastermind behind everything. So when you're going
(16:00):
through this experience where you're not just being called out,
I mean you're being called out as a drug addict,
you're being called out as an unfit mother. Your ex
husband is being dragged into it. A little girl who
has no idea what's going on, has already been through
enough change because mom's boyfriend no longer lives in the house. Emotionally,
what's going on with you at that point, I think
(16:21):
I was a basket case. I think I was distracted vacant, emotional, irritable.
I wasn't angry, I was sad. I dramatically lost a
ton of weight. I was just kind of a zombie.
And I never really truly knew the phrase like living
day today. But I truly was just trying to get
(16:42):
through every day with setting up drug tests, trying to
find out who my friends were, who I could trust,
who I could go to, trying to lean on people,
trying to be a good mother, trying to not let
Lola how much I was hurting in so many different ways,
trying to keep things amicable with my ex husband because
my ex husband wanted to dramatically get involved, you know,
(17:03):
trying to keep afloat. I don't know if I did
a very good job of it. If I'm honest, how
could anybody, I mean, like literally, I mean, with what
you just describe, how could anybody take I tried, But
I think that I leaned in heavy on friends and family,
and I have two girlfriends that I call my fairy
godmother's that would quite literally sneak into my house and
(17:24):
bring me food because I wasn't eating. I wasn't I
was pretty much just working, taking care of my daughter
and sleeping and trying to sort out my life. I mean,
I have to imagine at that point you feel completely powerless.
Where is the moment where you're able to just even
get your sea legs back and decide that you're going
to move forward? And how did your creativity really spur
(17:47):
you through the day that Child Productive Services said everything
was unfounded. Obviously this was a false call. How long
did that process take? It was over three months because
it fell over Christmas and Thanksgiving a new year. Yeah,
so it was you know, it was a government agencies
are closed, so it took a little bit longer. And
my case worker said to me, go get them, because
(18:11):
not only had he halted my life, he had also
wasted resources for an agency that is made to protect children.
So they quite literally wasted their time, money, and resources
investigating me in my family when another child needed that
time and money and resources another child could have I'm
(18:34):
not being dramatic when I say died because they weren't
rescued or they weren't questioned in time. So she said,
go get them. Once it was over, I had this
unexplained strength to just put my big girl panties on
and fight back, and so He has criminal charges pending
against him now for harassment and falsifying information, so his
(18:58):
court case is still pending and he faces jail time.
Once you get through this point, you would not listen
to your own intuition. How much are you judging yourself
at this point? I feel like that's the biggest part.
You can be so angry at the person who betrayed you,
you know. I know in my experience with the narcissist,
I was more pissed at myself though, So you feel tried.
(19:20):
It was like, you're an idiot? How did you not know? Absolutely?
How severe was that for you? That was pretty bad. Also,
I was dealing with the guilt of bringing this sort
of monster into my daughter's life, and with the help
of friends, you said this to me my therapist, saying,
you can't put that on yourself, you know, because I
(19:42):
felt this guilt of getting choked up. I felt this
guilt of bringing this man into her life, and you know,
she's a child. That was the hardest thing to get over.
But being a strong person, or thinking you're a strong person,
thinking you're smart person, thinking your you have good intuition,
and then being duped so bad, you just feel like
(20:06):
an idiot. And then you go back. I don't know
if you did this with your ex wife. You go
back and you said there was a sign I ignored.
There was a sign I ignored, and then you really
trace it back, and I was able to trace it
so far back to things that I don't think I
ignored it. I think I chose not to see it
because you're in love and you're happy. And that's what
(20:28):
a narcissist does, is they cloud everything they have to
win over your happiness and your trust in order to
ultimately betray you and with you know, tactics such as
gas lighting and making you feel that you're mentally incompetent,
you go to yourself first. I can actually correlate that
to being on stage if someone drops a line, you know,
(20:51):
something goes wrong. My first instinct is, what did you do? Ellen? Yeah,
what did you do? It's your line? Say something? So
you think those things things. And because he sort of
really did a number on me mentally, I really really
beat myself up again and again, and I still, you
know something to this day, you know, I'm I am,
(21:11):
you know, quote over the relationship. I don't think I'll
be over I don't know if I'll ever be over
what he did to Lola. But the creativity part of
it came when I said, I have a voice, and
I have some kind of a platform, and I have
a monicum of talent, and I can use this to
(21:32):
kind of share this story because I can't be the
only one. And I did the show in May, and
I wasn't the only one. And I got so many
emails and Facebook messages from people I didn't know, from
women I didn't know, saying, oh my gosh, this helped
me feel like I wasn't alone. I thought I was
(21:53):
so dumb. I thought I was so stupid. I thought
I was crazy. I thought it was dramatic, all of
these things that you know, these and had embedded into
their brain. And then I thought, well, this is a
really personal show. I'm just going to do it for
this room, for close friends. You came and my mom
flew out, and I thought this is it. But then
I realized that the platform to speak about emotional abuse
(22:17):
was there, and there wasn't anybody standing up and talking
about it. You know, the Me Too movement was sexual harassment,
and we've we know about physical abuse, but mental abuse
is so embarrassing. I think that people stray away from
it because there is a part of you that just
feels so embarrassed and so dumb for falling for the
(22:40):
act of a narcissist. It just doesn't get spoken about.
You know, if if a woman gets hit by a man, well,
obviously he's bigger than you. You couldn't defend yourself. If
a woman gets sexually harassed while a man was using
his power over you to get what he wanted, but
being an emotionally abused you agree to it, there's some
part that agrees, that says, Okay, that's embarrassing to admit. Yeah,
(23:02):
you know, you did the show in May and it
was incredible. Way, it was a beautiful night. Somehow you
do all this and still managed to make it a
night of laughs, which is only you, Ellen marsh only you.
How's it changed now is the story has continued to unfold,
and what can people expect when they come September sev Well,
I had originally set this date, if I'm being honest,
(23:24):
with the plan of having an ending to the story,
because I thought the trial would be done by now.
And what I've learned is that the judicial system has
its own timeline of which I'm not privy to, and
it's not done, so I guess I was expecting to
have it wrapped up in a neat little bow, and
that's actually not going to happen. So I'm just accepting that,
(23:44):
as you know, that's not the way it's going to be.
What I am changing is I'm changing a little bit
of the storytelling, and I think I'm sort of streamlining
and clearing up the focus of it, which is sort
of the clearing up about what, you know, what makes
a narcissist and um, the narcissistic abuse. I was really
inspired by the Hannah Gadsby special Ninette. Yes, a lot
(24:04):
of people talking about that on Netflix. Yeah, and she
said this line that reas I mean, there were so
many things that she said that resonated with me and
a lot of people. One of the things she said
was our stories are our cure, you know, talking about
things that happened in getting it out telling. Our stories
are part of our cure. And there was another one.
(24:24):
Nothing is louder or more powerful than a woman who
has been broken, who picks herself up again and has
been broken. I can't remember the exact quote. But I
was very, very moved, and I had a couple of
people say to me that your show kind of reminded
me of it because it was sort of a bait
and switch her show, which you sit down and you
think it's gonna be a comedy special, but it's sort
(24:45):
of morphs into more of a Ted Talks and I
kind of liked that format. And the hardest thing about
my show was telling the story about Lola, because your daughter,
Lola is my daughter. Yeah, telling the story about what
happened to her was the part I was most scared
about because I'm fine with being funny, and I'm fine
with I think any story with enough finesse can be funny.
(25:07):
That's part of what comedy is is taking an uncomfortable
situation and making it funny somehow. Kevin Hart talks about
his drug addicted in and out of prison dad, and
it's hilarious. Obviously that comes from one of his specials
was called laugh at My Pain, and I think that's
a brilliant way to explain what comedy is. It's laughing
(25:28):
at our pain. I know, at least for me. When
I think back on my radio days, and I always
sort of done being the funny guy in every situation.
You know, it was a way to be seen, but
it was also a way to not really feel the
underlying emotions. Humor is a great defense mechanism to keep
you from feeling the unpleasant emotions. How do you ride
that mine in your life between knowing that you fully
(25:50):
grieved everything that happened and it's okay to laugh, or
maybe just using it is a way to not feel.
I think I did. I mean, I think I felt
all the emotions. I think I of through it. But um,
I think that you were calling the show that I
kind of took the emotional sections and did deflect a
(26:10):
little with laughter. I feel like I went through it
and I felt it enough that I could find the funny.
You know, even the section about Lola, I talk about
that note that she left me, if you'll recall, I
dissect this note that she left me and that's funny,
and then I referred back to it because I think
in any tense situation, I think an audience is just
(26:33):
dying to laugh when they're tense, because in our brains,
the chemicals that are you know, sadness, great sadness, great anger,
great joy are all the same, and I think that
with great sadness can come lefter. I mean, it's it's
the same thing you know when you're at a funeral
and someone makes a joke and it's everyone kind of
(26:55):
needs that release, and I think that laughter can kind
of do that in a tense situation. What have you
learned about vulnerability through this process? I was telling you
before we even rolled today. You and I have been
friends for over two decades, but you know they're having
We hang out, we get along, it's great. But I've
told you before, it's like, there's times when I always
felt like, what's really going on? What did you used
(27:17):
to believe about vulnerability? And now that you've shared this
story so bravely and you've turned it into a show,
what do you believe now? I think I used to
confuse vulnerability with weakness and think that I don't need
to not saying cry or get upset. I definitely did,
but I never needed to show that to anyone. I
needed never needed to show anyone that I was hurt,
(27:38):
and I never needed to show anyone the sad things
in life. And this was so epically horrible that I
think that it actually did the opposite and showed my
strength in sharing the story because it was hard, and
it still is hard, and if anyone you know is
able to come to the show, there are parts that
are difficult for me to get through even now, even
(28:00):
now feeling great and happy and positive, and I'm in
a great show. I love my job, I love my daughter.
Everything is sort of you know, in line, but it's
still hard to get through. And I think that being
vulnerable is quite the opposite of what I thought it was.
I think being vulnerable takes a great amount of strength,
and I think there's a time and a place. I
(28:22):
don't think we all need to walk around with, you know,
our hearts wide open and completely vulnerable. But I have
learned that it's okay to let people take care of
you a little, allowing yourself to actually receive the love
and the attention, and especially for somebody like you, who's
so wired to take care of other people. Eat so funny.
(28:43):
Even today, I hurt my finger and my dance partner.
It would really hurt. It was like one of those
odd things. And even my dance partner didn't know I was.
He thought I was sick to my stomach because I
kept looking down because I didn't want him to know
I was hurt, because they didn't want him to dote
on me or say like are you okay? Are you okay?
And he goes, I did to even know you hurt yourself.
You were looking down because I was crying because it
(29:04):
hurts so bad. I just wanted to kind of like
cry it out and go on with the show. And
that was it. So yeah, there are still times where
that kind of like tough broad kind of creeps back
in for somebody listening today who thinks they might be
dating a narcissist. So, yeah, what would be three telltale
signs for somebody from your experience that would be the
biggest red flags for somebody who's questioning. Obviously a narcissist
(29:26):
to someone who is consumed with themselves and need constant attention, Right,
that's the obvious trait of a narcissist. But the sort
of more subtle traits are somebody who gas lighting. You know,
if there's a problem flipping the script, changing the narrative,
making it about you, blaming you for why why it's happened.
(29:46):
The problem isn't the abuse, it's your reaction to right,
It's not what I'm doing to you, it's how you're
reacting to me. So ultimately that deflection um coming back,
and then that's coupled with gas lighting. Then I would
say one of the more dangerous characteristics, I guess is
being consumed with how others perceive, even sort of like
(30:09):
small natural human missteps, making sure everything is you know, perceive.
It's all sort of an act. What they do is
they you know, they can drain you emotionally, they can
drain you financially, they can drain you your your time,
your energy, your family, and they love to turn people
against you. Ultimately, his goal with all of the sort
(30:30):
of drama that he brought into my life was also
he wasn't the bad guy. He wanted me to be
the bad guy because he had cheated on me with
you know, I was a single mom, and he didn't
want to face that. He didn't want to be the
bad guy, so his only exit strategy was to make
me the bad guy. Well, look she's going to jail.
Well look someone's taking her kid away. And it was
(30:53):
just the ultimate deflection for him to not be the
bad guy. And I mean, there has never been such
a complete three sixty back, you know, boomerang completely back
to him as the trouble he made for himself and
for somebody who is healing right now from a breakup
with a narcissistic person. What would be a couple meaningful
(31:14):
action steps that you could give to somebody who's just
going through it, or maybe they're on those first couple
of steps. How do you rebound? How do you find
yourself again? Well, I would say don't do what I did,
which is keep telling everyone you're okay, because I wasn't okay,
and I kept saying I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm fine,
I'm great, I'm okay, and I wasn't. I wasn't fooling
anyone except for myself. Everybody could see, you know, your emotions.
(31:37):
People's hair turn gray, they age, not saying I do
you know? It manifests itself outwardly. So I think the
thing that is okay to do is to lean on people.
I think there's such a guilt in um, Hey, how
you doing. Yeah, I'm good, you know. But then there
are the people, your your people, your people, whoever that
might be a brother or sister, a friend, a coworker.
(32:00):
They say, are you okay, and it's okay to say
I'm actually just not today, and you know, saying why
and talking. I would not have been able to get
through without people checking in and letting me talk and
letting me talk it out and letting me be crazy
and letting me be sad, because you can't do it
by yourself, because it's not a regular breakup. Breaking up
(32:22):
with a narcissist is someone who is using tactics and
implementing different forms of abuse to make you feel bad
about yourself. And we don't have the toolbox for that.
Most people don't, at least, you know, everybody can sympathize
and relate to the emotion of hurt, right everybody there.
That is one emotion that everybody can relate to, But
(32:44):
how we deal with it and our gauge and our
tolerance for it is always going to be different. Accepting
that help and self care. I never I never knew
this self care thing you all people talk about. It's great,
You're like, I thought that was some life coaching bullshit. Yeah,
I like, oh wow, I enjoy the self care. What
does the self care look like for you? Because it's
(33:05):
different for everybody. Allowing myself to sit on the couch
and watch TV. I always thought I needed to be
doing something and being a productive member of society, getting massages,
going into the sauna, the spa, Like I never gave
myself those things making myself feel good, putting on nice clothes,
doing the girly things that make me feel good, getting
a blowout. I know that sounds crazy, but it just
(33:27):
made me feel better about myself, spending time with friends
and going out to dinner and not feeling feeling guilty
about spending too much money on something. Yeah, is there
any part of you that like looking back in hindsight,
looking at your evolution as a woman, as just a
human on the planet, as a mom? Is there any
part of you now that can that has enough in
(33:50):
the rear view mirror where maybe you can find any
It's a weird word to say, and I don't wanna
because I would never wish this experience on anybody, But
do you find an a gift in it for you
in terms of what it's allowed, what it's brought out
of you, either as a person or as an artist.
I think the kind of the vulnerability that we talked about.
(34:11):
I don't know if you felt it in my show
when you saw it, But I felt really in control
of what I was saying and doing. And I think
that knowing that sort of everyone's story has value and
that if you want to tell your story you can.
I mean, I guess that's the only gift. And just
(34:35):
knowing that, I guess how strong we are, thinking back
to where I was a year ago and thinking that
I couldn't get up off the floor, and then thinking, really,
you just think this is never gonna end. You think
I Am never gonna be okay, And just knowing how
strong we actually are. I guess that's a gift because
(34:57):
I don't think I ever really knew. I knew I
was because people told me I was. You had never
experienced it or integrated it. Well, you're such a strong woman,
I think because people equate that with maybe having a
career and a presence and a child, but then seeing like,
oh no, I am fucking wonder woman you are. I
(35:21):
think that was probably the gift. The show is Ellen,
Marie Marsh, I'm sorry what has happened. In Monday night,
September at the green Room, We'll put a link. There's
still some tickets available at least as of the day
we're recording this, so we'll get some We'll get that
link up in the show notes. My friend, I love you.
I've always admired your talent, but just seeing what all
(35:44):
this is created in your life and just seeing where
you're at right now has been amazing to watch you.
You're the best. Thanks for having me. If you're one
of my listeners in New York and New Jersey, this
is going to be such a powerful, amazing, beautiful night
of entertainment September sevent I'm going to be at the show.
I would love to say hi to you if you're there.
(36:05):
Tickets for I'm Sorry What are on sale now. You
can find the link here in the show notes. And
if you enjoyed the content that you heard today, let
Ellen and I know you're listening. You can screenshop this podcast,
upload it to Twitter or Instagram. You can tag me
at c sc Dan Mason, and you can tag her
at Ellen marsh That is Ellen with a Why. Also,
(36:25):
if you're loving the podcast, give us a follow here
on the I Heart Radio app or click subscribe wherever
you listen to your favorite podcast. And don't forget those
five star ratings and reviews are always welcome, not for
my sake, but it does help us get this content
out there to more people and help with our placements
on the Apple New and Noteworthy section. Thank you so
much for taking a few minutes to listen today. If
(36:48):
you're looking for some coaching to help you break through
to the next level in your career in life, you
can find out how to work with me at my
website Creative Soul Coaching dot nets. And while you're there,
you can schedule a complimentary thirty minute discovery called with Me.
We'll be back next week. In the meantime, turn down
the volume on your negativity, turn up the volume on
your purpose so you can live life amplified. We'll talk
(37:10):
to you next time.
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