November 2, 2023 • 38 mins
Billy Mann started his career as a singer in San Francisco and went on to be an executive of a record company. He talks about songwriting, where inspiration comes from, finding inspiration from our failures, and his new podcast, Yeah, I F**ked That Up.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So ready for another week of thinking out loud, this
one we're so excited for you to hear. Today we're
going to talk to one of my old friends, Billy Man.
I've known him for years. He was a record executive
who I knew since the nineties, and he's helped shape
the careers of several huge names of music like Pink
Backstreet Boys and Kelly Rowland and a lot more. Hear
how he got his start busking in San Francisco, from
(00:21):
nothing to everything, and find out what he's up to
now with his podcast, which is great. It's called Yeah
I fucked that up. Here we go. Billy Mann and
I have known each other for how many years?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Twenty years?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, a long time. Billy's got a great history. This guy,
great musician. God lived in his car in Los Angeles
and London. You lived in your car for a while.
But did you wanted if.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I didn't go to London from Los Angeles?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Well, I know, but a car. You found a different car.
But you were living in your car, a struggling musician
out there on streets playing for money. And it's just
a great story from doing that to tell what you've known.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I think it was I don't think much has changed,
except I'm no longer living in a car. I mean,
I was like writing songs and singing and trying to
move my music from one place to the next. And
I the best story I can tell about the music
business has nothing to do with the music business. But
during the period where I was, I wasn't homeless, so
I was sort of CouchSurfing slash in my car. I
(01:26):
was really broke and I had to earn enough money
to pay for the room I was renting, and I
went to Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco and I played
songs and I made like sixteen bucks in one day,
which is not a lot of money. And I thought,
can I curse on this? Oh yeah, oh yeah, And
I thought I'm totally fucked. And then the next day
(01:47):
I was up very early and there was a couple
walking down Fisherman's Wharf and they looked very like happy
and in love and who's awake that early in the
morning and on a weekend, but a newlywed couple, which
they were. And I started playing right away because I
needed to make money, and they were nice, and they
had no place to go, and there were no people around,
and then we started talking and they said, we just
(02:08):
got married and we're here on our honeymoon. And I
said to them, you know, I'm trying to make enough
money to move my music forward. What if you tell
me how you met and I'll write a song about
it in five minutes or less for twenty bucks. And
if you don't like it, no, not twenty bucks for
five bucks. And if you don't like it, you don't
have to tell me. I just like ruined the story,
but I said, you don't have to pay me anything.
(02:30):
So they told me how they met, and I wrote
down all these words and it was like everything that
could rhyme. It would be like, you know, plain, spain,
rain or whatever, and I'd write these notes and then
I like made it up real fast, and the guy
gave me twenty bucks, and then there was another couple
walking after them, and I was like, so, how'd you
guys meet? And then I made like four hundred dollars
(02:52):
over the next day and I kind of saved myself.
And to me, that's kind of the story of being
a working songwriter or an artist, which is you're trying
to write songs that mean something to other people and
hopefully you can feed yourself in the process. So I've
been scaling ever since I was in San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I know, But what a great way to realize writing
music has extreme value.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well, I also thought to myself, not only that is
that it can have value, but I thought I'll figure
it out, because up until that point, I was just
hand to mouth and just worrying about just surviving. And
then all of a sudden, I thought, you know, this
method that I'm using, I could probably do better.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
But since then, I mean, we must fast forward. Billy
has had many, many different positions at many many different
record labels, management companies, as his own management company, and
also has written songs, which is more fun to talk
about for many great artists, including Pink. You've worked with
other artists like Backstreet Boy, Seleine Deon, Jessica Simpson. I mean,
you've worked with everyone in the business, anybody these huge,
(03:53):
high paying executive positions that are kind of boring to
talk about, but exciting if you're in the music business.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well funny if you're in the music business, because when
you're a songwriter and you're the working musician, and all
of a sudden, you become the president of a big company.
It's sort of like the dishwasher at the restaurant now
owns the restaurant, and there's like a real that's not
It wasn't an easy glide path into that role amongst
the people working at the restaurant who see you one
way and then suddenly have to experience you another. But
(04:21):
it was a great experience. I love doing it knowing
what I know of you.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Writing songs for people is much more fun than being
an executive at a at a company.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
I think they're both problem solving in a way.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I mean writing a song problem solving.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well. I think for somebody who's creative, it's it's therapeutic, right,
So sometimes it's problem solving and that you feel something
and then you articulate it and you feel better. And also,
if you're working with other artists, you're trying to help
them articulate feelings that they feel, and in that respect
it's problem solving or an attempt at building a bridge
for them so that they can actualize what they're feeling
(04:57):
and use it as part of their identity. But in
a larger job, problem solving is you know, sometimes it's
conflicts with managers and artists, and sometimes it's internal conflicts.
I think the part that I didn't enjoy the most
was that it kept me farther away from the creative process.
And so after I got off, after I got offered
(05:17):
to sit in this role, I tried very hard to
believe that I would still be close to the music.
And the part that was the toughest was that, you know,
you wind up holding a desk more than you hold
a guitar, and that was tough.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
One of the reasons we had to have you on
the podcast building is because we want to talk about
your podcast, which is called Yeah I fucked that up,
and that's coming up in a minute. That's called a tease.
But I want to get back to songwriting. Songwriting for
you comes easy, easily, right, Yeah? Can anyone write a song?
I mean, what does it take to write a song?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I mean, well with shat GPT yes.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Well no, okay, without that. If I wasn't down and
just pen a song, is it easy? I mean, how
does your mind work? I'm sure songwriters do it different ways.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Everybody does it differently. I don't. I would like to
say that it's the thing about music, the music and
sports are the two things that are available to everybody.
Even if you're not playing it, you're a part of it.
And I think songwriting, I think what's hard isn't writing songs.
I think what's hard is how do you say something
in a way that has never been said the same
(06:25):
way before? How do you how do you see a
thought through? But I actually feel like I could sit
down with you and we could write a song together
and it could be great. And I think what's so
exciting about the music business is the only thing that
separates me from somebody who's really clever and has some
talent and motivation and them being the next Grammy winning
(06:48):
hit maker is three minutes of what they create. And
in the world we're living in, there's so much access
that it's it's it's in many respects because of the
volume of artists, it's it's not as and in other
ways it's actually more democratic and there's more opportunity for everybody.
So now it's a volume game. So the answer is,
I think anybody can write a song. The question is
(07:10):
can they write a song that's going to hit people
deep enough that they want to hear more of it
and hear it over and over again.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You don't know it fast is part of it. You
know what fascinates me about songwriters. I could meet a
songwriter not know what they've written, and to me they
may come off across as come across as like a
very shy, shallow, introvert, whatever. But you read their lyrics
and then the most beautifully constructed lyrics and phrases and
(07:38):
thoughts things that make you cry. You just like a
work of art on the wall. You could actually listen
to the lyrics of a song and just start to
cry because it comes from this place that you just
don't see on the outside of these human beings. From
the inside is where you get it. It's a great
lesson in understanding. Got to you can't judge a book
by its cover, right, Like, there is one songwriter I love,
Diane Warren. Now you know Diane, well, we all know
(08:01):
Dian Warren. She lives on the West Coast, and she
writes some of those incredibly thought out, beautifully constructed songs
about love and breakup. But when you meet her' she
curses like a sailor. I mean, she loves to assault
people in a fun way. Her lyrics in her songs
(08:22):
don't match the person you meet at the table, so
I don't know which is which. Which of those people
is Dian Warren the person who curses like a sailor
or also can construct a beautiful love ballad that makes
you cry.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Well, but isn't it this is you're I mean, you're
unusual because you're a very public persona, but you have,
like I think, everybody has a three tiered life. They
have their public life, their private life, and their secret life.
And I think for creators, we behind the scenes type
of creators, it's to peek our heads out into the
(08:56):
public life with our creativity. It's like nice to be
a songwriter because you're not out doing the promotion and
you're not necessarily on the front lines of all the feedback.
And I think, first, I know Diane a little bit,
and she's brilliant. I mean, she's an absolute genius. But
her disconnect I actually this is my analysis, So forgive
(09:20):
me Diane for my analysis. But I actually think her
secret life is what fuels all of her creativity. I
think what makes her so special is the secret layer
of her comes out in the songs she writes. And
actually that private life, which is the few people that
get to meet her as Diane Warren the songwriter is
(09:42):
actually her public life. I think there's something magical about
every songwriter or a musician that I meet, but I think
with her in particular, I think the secret sauce for
her is that secret place that she pulls it from.
She's an unusual example. But is she Yeah, she is.
She's very special. There's only I mean, I'm a huge fan,
(10:05):
and every time we've hung out or spoken, she's just
like she's as ambitious and excited and curious about the
next song. And she's an absolute sales.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Machine without doubt. Just you know Diane Warren. And I
want you, by the way, to do a search on
Diane Warren so you can you can see the list
of hits. I mean, she is nothing but hits, millions
of them.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Don't want to miss a thing. Errol Smith, I'll never
get over you getting over me.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
That's there's a ton of them. I'm just and Michael
Bolton's and all sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
She's she's goat.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Status and you know what, she has a secret vault
at home and maybe it's a computer where she has
songs ready to go and she can actually she can
actually auction them off and to the highest bidder, and
she makes She just walked to the mailbox every day
and the checks just come in and she does.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
But you know, the question that you always ask about,
or rather the question that I tend to ask, is
are people happy? You know? And I think, you know,
when I look at any of the people that are
successful at the level that Diana is successful, and I
would I can't help but look at it and think.
(11:16):
You can't see the kind of car you're driving necessarily
while you're driving it. I mean, you can see maybe
a little logo on the steering wheel. But I just
think that what I've found amazing is working with the
people that have that sense of self awareness and the
success and it's not all about the music industry, but
that music is somehow a vehicle for other parts of
(11:37):
their lives that they want to develop, and I think
that this is a hard business for them.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Let's talk about the podcast, because I find this fascinating
because as creative as Billy Man has been in the
music business, not only writing the music and performing it,
but also managing others who do the music and all
so figuring out how to distribute it for profitability for companies.
He also has a great take on life. As you
can hear already, you have a very unique way of
(12:11):
phrasing and couching things to make it interesting. You have
found people in your life in business who actually have
great stories. The journey that they that they made to
get from point A to where they are now has
a couple of potholes on the road. Right. So the
podcast is called Yeah, I fucked that up, So I
(12:33):
know what it's about, but I want to hear in
your words, what is this podcast about and what can
we all learn from it?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I mean, so I have four kids. One of my
kids in particular, was having a very difficult time getting
stuck on not getting good grade on something at school,
and it was it sounds weird, but I think a
lot of parents can relate to this. You know, if
you have a kid who's an athlete, or kid who's
really passionate about one one or another things that when
(13:00):
it doesn't go their way, it can be hard. And
I was trying to explain that everybody fails if you're
successful at anything, and his response was that's not true.
You don't fail. And then I sort of I looked
at Jen and my wife and it was like a
toilet paper roll, a list of all the things that
(13:20):
I have fucked up. But I really tried to explain
to him that it's a fact. Like Abraham Lincoln lost
I think almost every election before he won being president,
and then he changed the world, not enough, but certainly
more than anybody else. And I think that anybody that
(13:41):
I know that's successful, they actually they get better from
the moments that they fall down. But people don't talk
about that. Elvis, they don't talk. Nobody goes to a
cocktail party and they're like, man, I really fucked this
up today. It's just not how we're wired. Nobody goes
on social media and posts look at me, I look
like shit. I had a terrible day. I tripped, I
(14:02):
made a huge mistake at work. It's just not we
And we've come to this place where we have this
curated highlight real life that everybody's living. And at the
same time there's real problems, especially with younger people, and
anxiety and being judged and judging other people. So the
(14:23):
idea of this podcast is, really, can I get successful
people to volunteer? They're not selling a record or a book,
or just to actually talk about times that they fucked
up and what they got out of it and how
it either made them better or more self aware. And
each conversation has been different, but I have learned so much.
(14:45):
Most of all, I've learned that there is a thread,
a through line among all of the guests that I've
spoken to. And I never I didn't think that I
would ever do a podcast. I think podcast is like
everybody's doing a podcast. But it has been surprisingly enriching
for me and it's going well, which is a shock
(15:06):
to me also. But I think it's another being at
the fisherman's wharf, like let me try a thing and
see if it's worth anything. But it's been worth the
most for me to see guess real talk about what
they've been through and in a way that they haven't done.
It's funny you mentioned Michael Bolton in the context of
(15:27):
Diane Warren and I interviewed him. It was really intense.
People don't know Michael Bolton. You think of Michael Bolton,
I mean, he's this iconic figure and there's an era
of his life where he was literally in the bleeding
edge of the zeitgeist and then he was like fell
out of it and he went from being the sexiest
man a live magazine cover guy to like kind of
what happened to him, or people would say comments about
(15:49):
his hair, But Michael was raising three daughters on food
stamps into his thirties before he had his first hit.
But him talking of about that and how he looks
at his success and how he is I don't say failed,
but I think what he wishes that he did better
has nothing to do with money or fame or music
(16:12):
or celebrity. And I found this with each of the
people that I've spoken to. It's that it's like it's
that it's that personal ability to self reflect that can
get lost in the ambition that you have in a career,
whether it's in music or film or acting.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
What we learn here and we hear it from everyone,
every everyone in industry that's succeeding anyway, will tell you
if you're not willing to take a chance and fail,
you're never going to succeed. Succeed. The problem is is
in failure, it's embarrassing, it's heartbreaking, so it makes you
tend to not want to try. Therefore you just sort
(16:55):
of swim with the other salmon. Right, but when you really,
when you're willing to get out there and take a chance,
even if you're taking a chance with your entire fortune
or lack of fortune and the few daughters you have
in the bank. If you don't take those chances, you'll
never move forward. You have to fail in order to succeed, right,
And I agree.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I guess the question is, is anybody talking about.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
That, Well, you are in this podcast, that's why you're here. Hello.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
No, But I guess I think more. We have to
be a lot more forgiving of other people, right, and
we idolize people. And the assumption is because of the
social media life for living, is that they don't that
they don't have their setbacks, or if they exist, they're staged.
It's like, one of the reasons I love Pink, even
though Alicia is like my friend for a long time,
(17:44):
is that off the stage, she is exactly who she is,
and she is transparent to a fault. Sometimes I'm like, Okay,
I don't know if you need to go that far,
but she feels compelled. And then there are other artists
where they're living a whole life that everybody seems to
see and behind the scenes is it's completely different, right.
(18:06):
I don't know how people get past that.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Well, your question a second ago, Bildy was well, how
do we get people to understand, truly understand the concept
of you have to fail before you succeed. Maybe one
of the problems is all the people saying you have
to fail before you succeed are successful. You're rare to
hear someone who's on the down and out it's going
you know, you gotta fuck up before you succeed, because
they're still fucking up. They're not succeeding yet, right.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
But some of people who are successful in a higher
altitude with hopefully they're like a little beacon in the
you know, in the clouds to say, well again, to
your point, I don't think they broadcast I did this wrong.
I this business failed. No one cared about my song.
I thought this was a hit. It was barely a
(18:51):
B side. That's like, it's not out there. But I
do think that at least, let me put you this way.
Every time I spoke to somebody and you, this is
your profession, not mine. But when we got real into it,
when it was over, they all thanked me. This felt
really good, really and it's.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Like because these things were all facts that they had already.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
It's like you talking to someone about really deep stuff
that you don't think that they're going to go there.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
But they had to talk about it to get it out.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
But or you know, when I interviewed Kelly Rowland, she
was like, no one has ever even asked me this question.
And we got into the fact that she grew up
and her mom was a nanny, and she was not
just living with Beyonce in her family, but she was
with her mom who was a caregiver for a family,
and how she felt like her mom treated those kids
(19:46):
nicer than she treated her, or she was around people
who were affluent enough, and that she thought to herself,
one day, I want to have this life right, and
then all of the challenges that she's facing her career,
I just didn't think I By the way, every conversation,
I'm sure the same is with you in interviews, it's
like you kind of go in you don't really know
(20:07):
what you're going to get until you get there. And
in this case, it's like it's very like, okay, everybody
take off their clothes and let's be open. And it
was I learned so much doing it. What's interesting about
it is the reason I like talking to celebrities about
it is because celebrities are we hold them up really high,
(20:30):
and when they're there, they don't want to lose that
because if I talk about how I fuck things up,
then I'll be judged. I could lose that, So I
don't want to talk about that. I'm just going to
post all my super awesome parties that I'm going to
and everything's cool. But I think ironically, the figures, the
(20:50):
public figures that last the longest are the ones that
address their moments of self doubt. That they're the most
transparent and not in a script. And that was the
other part. It is, like I said to when I
talked to Michael Bolton, just because I know him, I'm like,
don't give me any fucking stock answers, like we're going
to move past that. And if you go down that
path and I know that story, you're going to pull
(21:11):
out about whatever that is. I want to move past it.
And we got right into it. I think my goal
is that for my son who was getting stuck, or
for other people that feel like they're afraid to take risks.
It's if you don't do it one. You know, it's
(21:32):
like you're not going to score a goal if you
don't take a shot. But the other piece is most
of the people I've spoken to, in fact, all of them,
find that the places where they have fucked up, they've
made mistakes is actually the fertile ground for them to
be greater. And they have discovered something else that has
went unpacked has given them extra power and whatever area
(21:56):
that they wind up succeeding in. And that's I don't
know if that will come across in every podcast. I
think every I think they're all entertaining, but I think
when it does come across, it's it's super it's super emotional.
And next week and I don't know when this will air,
but I did one with Shelley Wright. Do you know
(22:19):
Shelley Wright. Shelley Wright is a country singer songwriter who
grew up in Kansas, Kansas farm country.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
We talked about her go Ahead and she.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Was dating Brad Paisley and they were like a country couple,
and she had the number one song and this is
in the late nineties. It's single white female, super talented,
beautiful people, magazines, Most Beautiful People, and she won the
ACM Award for Best Female Solo Artist, and she stood
up there and the whole time while she's with Brad Paisley,
(22:54):
and she's this big you know, America sweetheart, she's a
lesbian living in the closet and she's living like a
complete double life and her fuck up, which and it's
this is that she didn't get up there when she
won that award and said I'm gay and this is
who I am. And I think the dual life that
(23:19):
she was living, which she no longer lives obviously, really
put her own life in jeopardy and that she allowed
it to go as dark and as far as she did,
and is her what she feels as her fuck up
and her going through that story was gut wrenching to
listen to.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And you know, you said a second ago something about
how we need to give ourselves more space to mess up.
How do you do that other than not being afraid
to be vulnerable? And also you were talking about people
(24:02):
you know who are living this genuine life. I think
Pink is a great example on and off stage. I
think most how do we give ourselves room to fuck up?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
I don't know, I mean, and I don't think it's
exclusive to celebrities. I mean there's somebody at work that
they come to work and they present a certain way,
and when they go home it's it's another way. It's not.
I think it's less the judgment. I think it's more
that you know, our uber results driven mentality and everything
is you know, about where people feel that they are
(24:33):
on the sort of successful scale, and we're of course
we're living in the media center. But I think in general,
it's like I think, I think that the more successful people,
and it doesn't just mean money or celebrity, I think
more the more people who are comfortable in themselves kind
(24:54):
of success gives space to the people around them to
fuck up and not judge them and say, you know what,
that sucks, I'm so sorry that happened, but you know,
who knows where it's going to lead you. I just
think we've lost that that's a very American thing. That's
a very American entrepreneurial spirit. Like we start from nothing,
(25:16):
and we we were gritty, and we have pride in
what we do, and we care about community, and I
think all of this is like in this this is
the right way, and this is the wrong way, and
if you don't do it one way, you fail or
you're looked at as a loser by the other. I
just this is I think the idea of making space
(25:37):
for failure is uh. It starts with individuals, but I
think it's also families, judgments and families. How many parents say,
I don't like the person you're dating, I don't whatever.
It's like, we're just not good at this.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
We're not good at any of many things.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
No, but I think I think I think inside we
really are. But I just think in the quest for
the perfect everything, which is the life we're living in
with you know, especially in social media, it's kind of honestly,
someone is gonna start a social media page, some celebrity
and they're just gonna it's gonna be nothing but fuck ups.
(26:14):
By the way, James Blunt on Twitter, I don't know
if you follow this, Okay, a genius, like the most
self deprecating, like he will take hate comments and he
will turn them around into the greatest one liners. And
it's they'll say, like, I mean, we could look it up,
but like James Blunt sucks and he would write back
(26:36):
a comment, you know, straws whatever, lollipops whatever, and with
a smiley face, and he he wears it and it
makes him powerful. To me as someone who like observes
that that embrace of negative feedback, and I think that's
I think we're we're struggling. I think people are struggling
(26:58):
with it and the and that I you know, I
have four kids and my teenage daughter, like I worry
about like all of her friends and everybody, the compulsion
to post a certain way and.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Your social media has kind of fucked us up a
little bit. Yeah, maybe we could all agree we're fucked
up because of social media. I you know, Billy, I
want to go back to another thing. I keep going
back to things you say, because you've said some things
that really are igniting thoughts in my head rather than entertainment, business,
careers or lives whatever. Let's talk about if you're a nurse,
(27:31):
let's talk about, if you're an uber driver, let's talk
about if you're a police officer. Let's talk about if
you're you're out there doing something other than entertainment. What
kind of fuck ups, what kind of fuck ups? Can
you start to identify in your life that maybe we're
great for you, that don't be afraid. And you're talking
(27:51):
about footing a report out, going out and doing a
presentation in your in your insurance office, whatever, Like, how
can we apply this to anyone in every one who's
not an entertainment business like every everyday people.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I mean, I think what I look at, and I
don't mean this in necessarily a religious context, but I
do believe that we live in a world where sometimes
there are like coincidences that are just unbelievably strange. You
could be on the other side of a city or
the country and meet someone who happens to be friends
with a random person. You know. I think that there
(28:26):
is a there is a supernatural element to life that
we're living. You know, you're thinking of someone in their
favorite song comes on the radio at the exact time
you think of them. Sometimes the car accident you get
into where you made a wrong turn and fucked up
is actually the car accident that stopped you from going
(28:48):
to wherever you were going to go all the time
that could have been much worse for you. And that
or the car accident that you were in that where
you fucked up a turn and you were standing in
the coffee shop waiting for someone to come pick you up,
you meet the love of your life who's in the
coffee shop. I think that we have to recognize that
there is that sometimes failure is the forcing mechanism to clarity,
(29:13):
and that clarity can either be events or that clarity
can be internally. I've got to stop and rethink whatever
the fuck I'm doing right now, because I know I
want to be there. I was supposed to be there
twenty minutes ago, but for whatever reason, I'm not going
to be there, and I'm here now. Example example I
mean for me. I think one example is I was
(29:37):
going to a gig. This is when I was touring,
and it was a bunch of guys and I musicians
in living in a van and the van was really tall,
so it was like the van size and then there
was like tall van size and I was driving the
van was when you're an artist and you don't have
a big budget, like everybody drives. And we were I
want to say, in Iowa or something, and we were
(29:58):
driving and I went whatever motel we were saying in
and there was like the drive through. But I didn't
see that the van or think that the van was
taller than the top of the ceiling of that awning
structure at the cell okay, and so I like, you
heard the and then it was and it's like my band,
(30:20):
So I'm totally embarrassed, and so I put in reverse.
And it's not like I can afford to fix whatever
it is. But we were stuck there for an extra
two days and I missed a festival date. The festival
date that we didn't go to, there was like a
massive lightning storm tornado thing, and they wound up canceling
it and all this terrible things happened to mean we
(30:41):
were at this location. I mean, that's one example of
you know, I fucked up because I drove this van
into this structure. But on the other hand, if I
hadn't done that, what would have happened to us if
we were there during this like tornado storm that was
happening at the festival. I guess you could say maybe nothing,
(31:02):
but also maybe something.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Josh Hadden is in charge of engineering here at iHeart
in New York City. He set his alarm clock for
six pm for wakeup, when he should have set it
for six am because he was supposed to be at
the World Trade Center that morning. On September eleventh, two
thousand and one. Right, there's a fuck out, right, right,
but look at the payoff?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Right? But that's but isn't that? It? Though? Is that
there are some of these This is the make space
for I think when things happen to us, we're so
in the immediate moment of oh my god, oh my god,
oh my God, that we have to leave like a
little bit of room if possible, to be able to think, Okay,
this is I feel like Oprah or something. But what
(31:49):
in this moment am I supposed to be hearing about
where I am? And if I'm forced to yield and
I have no control and I feel embarrassed in shame,
can I get past that? And I think the problem
is it's it's harder and harder for people to get
past moments of embarrassment because everybody's on camera all the
(32:09):
fucking time. So maybe we can normalize it a little
when you have celebrities talk about their moments of self
doubt and failure, and most of the time it's the
listening to what they really want to say and really
want to do, But the mistake lies in ignoring it.
So like if nobody ever hears this podcast, and the
(32:31):
only thing I get to say to them on your
show is listen and trust what your gut is telling you,
what your voice inside of you is telling you, so
that if you do fuck up, you don't have regrets
because you maybe change direction to please somebody else. And
when you are successful, it'll feel more real to you
because you will have not ignored whatever it was that
(32:54):
compelled you to act doing whatever it is you are
passionate about, including being a nurse and being an uber driver,
or even if you're an uber driver because you want
to make money and survive. You know, if you have
a moment where that is on pause or something happens,
then I just I think, look around. I don't think
we just take I don't think we take time. I
(33:15):
don't think we're very forgiving of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
No, no, we treat ourselves like crap. Why. I don't know.
I don't know. That voice in the head is usually
our worst enemy. Right. So here's my challenge for everyone
listening to this, and I was included, make a mental
list or write down, make a list on a piece
of paper of all the fuck ups in your life,
things that you could have done differently, but you didn't.
(33:40):
You fucked up, but you learned from it right, and
you grew from it, and you were resolute in never
making that mistake ever again. And those are the things
that catapult you into great days and success.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I also think I'd add one piece to that, which
is what good came from it?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Did something good come from it? Even if it's humility
that you apply to yourself. Did something good happen? Did
you meet a person that you never thought you'd meet.
Did you learn something about yourself that went unpacked you
realize helped you to be wherever it is you are.
I you know, listen, this is being human means you
(34:21):
fuck up. Being human, you're in a relationship with someone,
you fuck up, You have friendships, your coworkers. I think
the human fuck ups, the worst human fuck ups are
the ones that go unforgiven, the ones that go without
self reflection. And because we're in this ultra judgment world
(34:42):
right now, I think it's just hard for people. So
I know, for me, I walk away from these conversations
feeling oddly enlightened and also more aware of my many faults,
but also looking at those as has maybe those areas
(35:03):
of development that there's actually real opportunity for me to
excel there and I don't want to miss that. And
I think we going back to you. I just think
it's not that you belong playing sports. The question is
where was that guy little Elvis in the moment and
(35:24):
is he still here in some spaces in your life?
And what does that look like and how does it
impact how you do business or things that you choose
to do. I mean, you are like Diane Warren, your
private life and a secret life, not just the public life.
I hope that social media colmes itself a little bit
so that people feel better about posting photos that it's
(35:47):
not the perfect angle or the perfect moment.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Every day we should strive to post things that show
us at our worst.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
By the way, I would make a bet or a
challenge that if and I'm sure no one would do this,
but I think if someone said for Z one hundred,
for your show or for you, that you said I'm
going to do a week of failure, it's gonna be
failure week, and every week you post some like terrible
photo that's a moment of vulnerability. I bet that you
(36:17):
would get an enormous amount of engagement and likes and
follows and comments, and I agree, and I think and
I think that that is the part that makes I
think that's the part where social media can do a
lot of good.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Very well said Billy. Thank you for coming in, Thank
you for having me. The podcast is called Yeah, I
Fucked that up?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
What you just like saying?
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I like saying it because the title itself is truly
exactly what it is.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Well, my daughter, my nine year old, is like, Dad,
you're and like, as soon as we go into the podcast,
I like feel a bit of embarrassment. But even there,
I think, you know, people curve. I think fuck fuck
is a great word. It really is so many uses,
but I think people like saying it. And in the
(37:09):
same way, I think when people finished having the conversation,
they like the conversation. So hopefully people will listen to
them and they'll feel a little bit more normal.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Billy's story one of my favorite, about never giving up
on what you truly believe in. From his humble beginnings
wanting to play music, it's incredible to see his immense
success in this industry that he just loves. And those
are the stories we love to bring to you on
Thinking Out Loud. If you're enjoying this podcast, why not
leave us a review and give us five stars. We've
got plenty more to share with you in the weeks
(37:41):
to come, so make sure you're subscribed and you'll get
a notification when a new episode drops. Follow me at
Elvis Durant on social media until next time, Peace Out.
Thinking Out Loud is hosted by me Elvis Duran. The
podcast is produced and edited by Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers
are Andrew Paclsi and Katrina Norvell. Thanks to David Katz,
(38:01):
Michael kind Heart and Caitlin Madore. Thinking Out Loud as
part of the Elvis Duran podcast Network on iHeartRadio for more,
rate review and subscribe to our show and if you
liked this episode, tell your friends. Until next time, I'm
Elvis Duran.
So ready for another week of thinking out loud, this
one we're so excited for you to hear. Today we're
going to talk to one of my old friends, Billy Man.
I've known him for years. He was a record executive
who I knew since the nineties, and he's helped shape
the careers of several huge names of music like Pink
Backstreet Boys and Kelly Rowland and a lot more. Hear
how he got his start busking in San Francisco, from
(00:21):
nothing to everything, and find out what he's up to
now with his podcast, which is great. It's called Yeah
I fucked that up. Here we go. Billy Mann and
I have known each other for how many years?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Twenty years?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, a long time. Billy's got a great history. This guy,
great musician. God lived in his car in Los Angeles
and London. You lived in your car for a while.
But did you wanted if.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I didn't go to London from Los Angeles?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Well, I know, but a car. You found a different car.
But you were living in your car, a struggling musician
out there on streets playing for money. And it's just
a great story from doing that to tell what you've known.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I think it was I don't think much has changed,
except I'm no longer living in a car. I mean,
I was like writing songs and singing and trying to
move my music from one place to the next. And
I the best story I can tell about the music
business has nothing to do with the music business. But
during the period where I was, I wasn't homeless, so
I was sort of CouchSurfing slash in my car. I
(01:26):
was really broke and I had to earn enough money
to pay for the room I was renting, and I
went to Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco and I played
songs and I made like sixteen bucks in one day,
which is not a lot of money. And I thought,
can I curse on this? Oh yeah, oh yeah, And
I thought I'm totally fucked. And then the next day
(01:47):
I was up very early and there was a couple
walking down Fisherman's Wharf and they looked very like happy
and in love and who's awake that early in the
morning and on a weekend, but a newlywed couple, which
they were. And I started playing right away because I
needed to make money, and they were nice, and they
had no place to go, and there were no people around,
and then we started talking and they said, we just
(02:08):
got married and we're here on our honeymoon. And I
said to them, you know, I'm trying to make enough
money to move my music forward. What if you tell
me how you met and I'll write a song about
it in five minutes or less for twenty bucks. And
if you don't like it, no, not twenty bucks for
five bucks. And if you don't like it, you don't
have to tell me. I just like ruined the story,
but I said, you don't have to pay me anything.
(02:30):
So they told me how they met, and I wrote
down all these words and it was like everything that
could rhyme. It would be like, you know, plain, spain,
rain or whatever, and I'd write these notes and then
I like made it up real fast, and the guy
gave me twenty bucks, and then there was another couple
walking after them, and I was like, so, how'd you
guys meet? And then I made like four hundred dollars
(02:52):
over the next day and I kind of saved myself.
And to me, that's kind of the story of being
a working songwriter or an artist, which is you're trying
to write songs that mean something to other people and
hopefully you can feed yourself in the process. So I've
been scaling ever since I was in San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I know, But what a great way to realize writing
music has extreme value.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well, I also thought to myself, not only that is
that it can have value, but I thought I'll figure
it out, because up until that point, I was just
hand to mouth and just worrying about just surviving. And
then all of a sudden, I thought, you know, this
method that I'm using, I could probably do better.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
But since then, I mean, we must fast forward. Billy
has had many, many different positions at many many different
record labels, management companies, as his own management company, and
also has written songs, which is more fun to talk
about for many great artists, including Pink. You've worked with
other artists like Backstreet Boy, Seleine Deon, Jessica Simpson. I mean,
you've worked with everyone in the business, anybody these huge,
(03:53):
high paying executive positions that are kind of boring to
talk about, but exciting if you're in the music business.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well funny if you're in the music business, because when
you're a songwriter and you're the working musician, and all
of a sudden, you become the president of a big company.
It's sort of like the dishwasher at the restaurant now
owns the restaurant, and there's like a real that's not
It wasn't an easy glide path into that role amongst
the people working at the restaurant who see you one
way and then suddenly have to experience you another. But
(04:21):
it was a great experience. I love doing it knowing
what I know of you.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Writing songs for people is much more fun than being
an executive at a at a company.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
I think they're both problem solving in a way.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I mean writing a song problem solving.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well. I think for somebody who's creative, it's it's therapeutic, right,
So sometimes it's problem solving and that you feel something
and then you articulate it and you feel better. And also,
if you're working with other artists, you're trying to help
them articulate feelings that they feel, and in that respect
it's problem solving or an attempt at building a bridge
for them so that they can actualize what they're feeling
(04:57):
and use it as part of their identity. But in
a larger job, problem solving is you know, sometimes it's
conflicts with managers and artists, and sometimes it's internal conflicts.
I think the part that I didn't enjoy the most
was that it kept me farther away from the creative process.
And so after I got off, after I got offered
(05:17):
to sit in this role, I tried very hard to
believe that I would still be close to the music.
And the part that was the toughest was that, you know,
you wind up holding a desk more than you hold
a guitar, and that was tough.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
One of the reasons we had to have you on
the podcast building is because we want to talk about
your podcast, which is called Yeah I fucked that up,
and that's coming up in a minute. That's called a tease.
But I want to get back to songwriting. Songwriting for
you comes easy, easily, right, Yeah? Can anyone write a song?
I mean, what does it take to write a song?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I mean, well with shat GPT yes.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Well no, okay, without that. If I wasn't down and
just pen a song, is it easy? I mean, how
does your mind work? I'm sure songwriters do it different ways.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Everybody does it differently. I don't. I would like to
say that it's the thing about music, the music and
sports are the two things that are available to everybody.
Even if you're not playing it, you're a part of it.
And I think songwriting, I think what's hard isn't writing songs.
I think what's hard is how do you say something
in a way that has never been said the same
(06:25):
way before? How do you how do you see a
thought through? But I actually feel like I could sit
down with you and we could write a song together
and it could be great. And I think what's so
exciting about the music business is the only thing that
separates me from somebody who's really clever and has some
talent and motivation and them being the next Grammy winning
(06:48):
hit maker is three minutes of what they create. And
in the world we're living in, there's so much access
that it's it's it's in many respects because of the
volume of artists, it's it's not as and in other
ways it's actually more democratic and there's more opportunity for everybody.
So now it's a volume game. So the answer is,
I think anybody can write a song. The question is
(07:10):
can they write a song that's going to hit people
deep enough that they want to hear more of it
and hear it over and over again.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You don't know it fast is part of it. You
know what fascinates me about songwriters. I could meet a
songwriter not know what they've written, and to me they
may come off across as come across as like a
very shy, shallow, introvert, whatever. But you read their lyrics
and then the most beautifully constructed lyrics and phrases and
(07:38):
thoughts things that make you cry. You just like a
work of art on the wall. You could actually listen
to the lyrics of a song and just start to
cry because it comes from this place that you just
don't see on the outside of these human beings. From
the inside is where you get it. It's a great
lesson in understanding. Got to you can't judge a book
by its cover, right, Like, there is one songwriter I love,
Diane Warren. Now you know Diane, well, we all know
(08:01):
Dian Warren. She lives on the West Coast, and she
writes some of those incredibly thought out, beautifully constructed songs
about love and breakup. But when you meet her' she
curses like a sailor. I mean, she loves to assault
people in a fun way. Her lyrics in her songs
(08:22):
don't match the person you meet at the table, so
I don't know which is which. Which of those people
is Dian Warren the person who curses like a sailor
or also can construct a beautiful love ballad that makes
you cry.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Well, but isn't it this is you're I mean, you're
unusual because you're a very public persona, but you have,
like I think, everybody has a three tiered life. They
have their public life, their private life, and their secret life.
And I think for creators, we behind the scenes type
of creators, it's to peek our heads out into the
(08:56):
public life with our creativity. It's like nice to be
a songwriter because you're not out doing the promotion and
you're not necessarily on the front lines of all the feedback.
And I think, first, I know Diane a little bit,
and she's brilliant. I mean, she's an absolute genius. But
her disconnect I actually this is my analysis, So forgive
(09:20):
me Diane for my analysis. But I actually think her
secret life is what fuels all of her creativity. I
think what makes her so special is the secret layer
of her comes out in the songs she writes. And
actually that private life, which is the few people that
get to meet her as Diane Warren the songwriter is
(09:42):
actually her public life. I think there's something magical about
every songwriter or a musician that I meet, but I think
with her in particular, I think the secret sauce for
her is that secret place that she pulls it from.
She's an unusual example. But is she Yeah, she is.
She's very special. There's only I mean, I'm a huge fan,
(10:05):
and every time we've hung out or spoken, she's just
like she's as ambitious and excited and curious about the
next song. And she's an absolute sales.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Machine without doubt. Just you know Diane Warren. And I
want you, by the way, to do a search on
Diane Warren so you can you can see the list
of hits. I mean, she is nothing but hits, millions
of them.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Don't want to miss a thing. Errol Smith, I'll never
get over you getting over me.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
That's there's a ton of them. I'm just and Michael
Bolton's and all sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
She's she's goat.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Status and you know what, she has a secret vault
at home and maybe it's a computer where she has
songs ready to go and she can actually she can
actually auction them off and to the highest bidder, and
she makes She just walked to the mailbox every day
and the checks just come in and she does.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
But you know, the question that you always ask about,
or rather the question that I tend to ask, is
are people happy? You know? And I think, you know,
when I look at any of the people that are
successful at the level that Diana is successful, and I
would I can't help but look at it and think.
(11:16):
You can't see the kind of car you're driving necessarily
while you're driving it. I mean, you can see maybe
a little logo on the steering wheel. But I just
think that what I've found amazing is working with the
people that have that sense of self awareness and the
success and it's not all about the music industry, but
that music is somehow a vehicle for other parts of
(11:37):
their lives that they want to develop, and I think
that this is a hard business for them.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Let's talk about the podcast, because I find this fascinating
because as creative as Billy Man has been in the
music business, not only writing the music and performing it,
but also managing others who do the music and all
so figuring out how to distribute it for profitability for companies.
He also has a great take on life. As you
can hear already, you have a very unique way of
(12:11):
phrasing and couching things to make it interesting. You have
found people in your life in business who actually have
great stories. The journey that they that they made to
get from point A to where they are now has
a couple of potholes on the road. Right. So the
podcast is called Yeah, I fucked that up, So I
(12:33):
know what it's about, but I want to hear in
your words, what is this podcast about and what can
we all learn from it?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
I mean, so I have four kids. One of my
kids in particular, was having a very difficult time getting
stuck on not getting good grade on something at school,
and it was it sounds weird, but I think a
lot of parents can relate to this. You know, if
you have a kid who's an athlete, or kid who's
really passionate about one one or another things that when
(13:00):
it doesn't go their way, it can be hard. And
I was trying to explain that everybody fails if you're
successful at anything, and his response was that's not true.
You don't fail. And then I sort of I looked
at Jen and my wife and it was like a
toilet paper roll, a list of all the things that
(13:20):
I have fucked up. But I really tried to explain
to him that it's a fact. Like Abraham Lincoln lost
I think almost every election before he won being president,
and then he changed the world, not enough, but certainly
more than anybody else. And I think that anybody that
(13:41):
I know that's successful, they actually they get better from
the moments that they fall down. But people don't talk
about that. Elvis, they don't talk. Nobody goes to a
cocktail party and they're like, man, I really fucked this
up today. It's just not how we're wired. Nobody goes
on social media and posts look at me, I look
like shit. I had a terrible day. I tripped, I
(14:02):
made a huge mistake at work. It's just not we
And we've come to this place where we have this
curated highlight real life that everybody's living. And at the
same time there's real problems, especially with younger people, and
anxiety and being judged and judging other people. So the
(14:23):
idea of this podcast is, really, can I get successful
people to volunteer? They're not selling a record or a book,
or just to actually talk about times that they fucked
up and what they got out of it and how
it either made them better or more self aware. And
each conversation has been different, but I have learned so much.
(14:45):
Most of all, I've learned that there is a thread,
a through line among all of the guests that I've
spoken to. And I never I didn't think that I
would ever do a podcast. I think podcast is like
everybody's doing a podcast. But it has been surprisingly enriching
for me and it's going well, which is a shock
(15:06):
to me also. But I think it's another being at
the fisherman's wharf, like let me try a thing and
see if it's worth anything. But it's been worth the
most for me to see guess real talk about what
they've been through and in a way that they haven't done.
It's funny you mentioned Michael Bolton in the context of
(15:27):
Diane Warren and I interviewed him. It was really intense.
People don't know Michael Bolton. You think of Michael Bolton,
I mean, he's this iconic figure and there's an era
of his life where he was literally in the bleeding
edge of the zeitgeist and then he was like fell
out of it and he went from being the sexiest
man a live magazine cover guy to like kind of
what happened to him, or people would say comments about
(15:49):
his hair, But Michael was raising three daughters on food
stamps into his thirties before he had his first hit.
But him talking of about that and how he looks
at his success and how he is I don't say failed,
but I think what he wishes that he did better
has nothing to do with money or fame or music
(16:12):
or celebrity. And I found this with each of the
people that I've spoken to. It's that it's like it's
that it's that personal ability to self reflect that can
get lost in the ambition that you have in a career,
whether it's in music or film or acting.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
What we learn here and we hear it from everyone,
every everyone in industry that's succeeding anyway, will tell you
if you're not willing to take a chance and fail,
you're never going to succeed. Succeed. The problem is is
in failure, it's embarrassing, it's heartbreaking, so it makes you
tend to not want to try. Therefore you just sort
(16:55):
of swim with the other salmon. Right, but when you really,
when you're willing to get out there and take a chance,
even if you're taking a chance with your entire fortune
or lack of fortune and the few daughters you have
in the bank. If you don't take those chances, you'll
never move forward. You have to fail in order to succeed, right,
And I agree.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I guess the question is, is anybody talking about.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
That, Well, you are in this podcast, that's why you're here. Hello.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
No, But I guess I think more. We have to
be a lot more forgiving of other people, right, and
we idolize people. And the assumption is because of the
social media life for living, is that they don't that
they don't have their setbacks, or if they exist, they're staged.
It's like, one of the reasons I love Pink, even
though Alicia is like my friend for a long time,
(17:44):
is that off the stage, she is exactly who she is,
and she is transparent to a fault. Sometimes I'm like, Okay,
I don't know if you need to go that far,
but she feels compelled. And then there are other artists
where they're living a whole life that everybody seems to
see and behind the scenes is it's completely different, right.
(18:06):
I don't know how people get past that.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Well, your question a second ago, Bildy was well, how
do we get people to understand, truly understand the concept
of you have to fail before you succeed. Maybe one
of the problems is all the people saying you have
to fail before you succeed are successful. You're rare to
hear someone who's on the down and out it's going
you know, you gotta fuck up before you succeed, because
they're still fucking up. They're not succeeding yet, right.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
But some of people who are successful in a higher
altitude with hopefully they're like a little beacon in the
you know, in the clouds to say, well again, to
your point, I don't think they broadcast I did this wrong.
I this business failed. No one cared about my song.
I thought this was a hit. It was barely a
(18:51):
B side. That's like, it's not out there. But I
do think that at least, let me put you this way.
Every time I spoke to somebody and you, this is
your profession, not mine. But when we got real into it,
when it was over, they all thanked me. This felt
really good, really and it's.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Like because these things were all facts that they had already.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
It's like you talking to someone about really deep stuff
that you don't think that they're going to go there.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
But they had to talk about it to get it out.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
But or you know, when I interviewed Kelly Rowland, she
was like, no one has ever even asked me this question.
And we got into the fact that she grew up
and her mom was a nanny, and she was not
just living with Beyonce in her family, but she was
with her mom who was a caregiver for a family,
and how she felt like her mom treated those kids
(19:46):
nicer than she treated her, or she was around people
who were affluent enough, and that she thought to herself,
one day, I want to have this life right, and
then all of the challenges that she's facing her career,
I just didn't think I By the way, every conversation,
I'm sure the same is with you in interviews, it's
like you kind of go in you don't really know
(20:07):
what you're going to get until you get there. And
in this case, it's like it's very like, okay, everybody
take off their clothes and let's be open. And it
was I learned so much doing it. What's interesting about
it is the reason I like talking to celebrities about
it is because celebrities are we hold them up really high,
(20:30):
and when they're there, they don't want to lose that
because if I talk about how I fuck things up,
then I'll be judged. I could lose that, So I
don't want to talk about that. I'm just going to
post all my super awesome parties that I'm going to
and everything's cool. But I think ironically, the figures, the
(20:50):
public figures that last the longest are the ones that
address their moments of self doubt. That they're the most
transparent and not in a script. And that was the
other part. It is, like I said to when I
talked to Michael Bolton, just because I know him, I'm like,
don't give me any fucking stock answers, like we're going
to move past that. And if you go down that
path and I know that story, you're going to pull
(21:11):
out about whatever that is. I want to move past it.
And we got right into it. I think my goal
is that for my son who was getting stuck, or
for other people that feel like they're afraid to take risks.
It's if you don't do it one. You know, it's
(21:32):
like you're not going to score a goal if you
don't take a shot. But the other piece is most
of the people I've spoken to, in fact, all of them,
find that the places where they have fucked up, they've
made mistakes is actually the fertile ground for them to
be greater. And they have discovered something else that has
went unpacked has given them extra power and whatever area
(21:56):
that they wind up succeeding in. And that's I don't
know if that will come across in every podcast. I
think every I think they're all entertaining, but I think
when it does come across, it's it's super it's super emotional.
And next week and I don't know when this will air,
but I did one with Shelley Wright. Do you know
(22:19):
Shelley Wright. Shelley Wright is a country singer songwriter who
grew up in Kansas, Kansas farm country.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
We talked about her go Ahead and she.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Was dating Brad Paisley and they were like a country couple,
and she had the number one song and this is
in the late nineties. It's single white female, super talented,
beautiful people, magazines, Most Beautiful People, and she won the
ACM Award for Best Female Solo Artist, and she stood
up there and the whole time while she's with Brad Paisley,
(22:54):
and she's this big you know, America sweetheart, she's a
lesbian living in the closet and she's living like a
complete double life and her fuck up, which and it's
this is that she didn't get up there when she
won that award and said I'm gay and this is
who I am. And I think the dual life that
(23:19):
she was living, which she no longer lives obviously, really
put her own life in jeopardy and that she allowed
it to go as dark and as far as she did,
and is her what she feels as her fuck up
and her going through that story was gut wrenching to
listen to.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And you know, you said a second ago something about
how we need to give ourselves more space to mess up.
How do you do that other than not being afraid
to be vulnerable? And also you were talking about people
(24:02):
you know who are living this genuine life. I think
Pink is a great example on and off stage. I
think most how do we give ourselves room to fuck up?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
I don't know, I mean, and I don't think it's
exclusive to celebrities. I mean there's somebody at work that
they come to work and they present a certain way,
and when they go home it's it's another way. It's not.
I think it's less the judgment. I think it's more
that you know, our uber results driven mentality and everything
is you know, about where people feel that they are
(24:33):
on the sort of successful scale, and we're of course
we're living in the media center. But I think in general,
it's like I think, I think that the more successful people,
and it doesn't just mean money or celebrity, I think
more the more people who are comfortable in themselves kind
(24:54):
of success gives space to the people around them to
fuck up and not judge them and say, you know what,
that sucks, I'm so sorry that happened, but you know,
who knows where it's going to lead you. I just
think we've lost that that's a very American thing. That's
a very American entrepreneurial spirit. Like we start from nothing,
(25:16):
and we we were gritty, and we have pride in
what we do, and we care about community, and I
think all of this is like in this this is
the right way, and this is the wrong way, and
if you don't do it one way, you fail or
you're looked at as a loser by the other. I
just this is I think the idea of making space
(25:37):
for failure is uh. It starts with individuals, but I
think it's also families, judgments and families. How many parents say,
I don't like the person you're dating, I don't whatever.
It's like, we're just not good at this.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
We're not good at any of many things.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
No, but I think I think I think inside we
really are. But I just think in the quest for
the perfect everything, which is the life we're living in
with you know, especially in social media, it's kind of honestly,
someone is gonna start a social media page, some celebrity
and they're just gonna it's gonna be nothing but fuck ups.
(26:14):
By the way, James Blunt on Twitter, I don't know
if you follow this, Okay, a genius, like the most
self deprecating, like he will take hate comments and he
will turn them around into the greatest one liners. And
it's they'll say, like, I mean, we could look it up,
but like James Blunt sucks and he would write back
(26:36):
a comment, you know, straws whatever, lollipops whatever, and with
a smiley face, and he he wears it and it
makes him powerful. To me as someone who like observes
that that embrace of negative feedback, and I think that's
I think we're we're struggling. I think people are struggling
(26:58):
with it and the and that I you know, I
have four kids and my teenage daughter, like I worry
about like all of her friends and everybody, the compulsion
to post a certain way and.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Your social media has kind of fucked us up a
little bit. Yeah, maybe we could all agree we're fucked
up because of social media. I you know, Billy, I
want to go back to another thing. I keep going
back to things you say, because you've said some things
that really are igniting thoughts in my head rather than entertainment, business,
careers or lives whatever. Let's talk about if you're a nurse,
(27:31):
let's talk about, if you're an uber driver, let's talk
about if you're a police officer. Let's talk about if
you're you're out there doing something other than entertainment. What
kind of fuck ups, what kind of fuck ups? Can
you start to identify in your life that maybe we're
great for you, that don't be afraid. And you're talking
(27:51):
about footing a report out, going out and doing a
presentation in your in your insurance office, whatever, Like, how
can we apply this to anyone in every one who's
not an entertainment business like every everyday people.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I mean, I think what I look at, and I
don't mean this in necessarily a religious context, but I
do believe that we live in a world where sometimes
there are like coincidences that are just unbelievably strange. You
could be on the other side of a city or
the country and meet someone who happens to be friends
with a random person. You know. I think that there
(28:26):
is a there is a supernatural element to life that
we're living. You know, you're thinking of someone in their
favorite song comes on the radio at the exact time
you think of them. Sometimes the car accident you get
into where you made a wrong turn and fucked up
is actually the car accident that stopped you from going
(28:48):
to wherever you were going to go all the time
that could have been much worse for you. And that
or the car accident that you were in that where
you fucked up a turn and you were standing in
the coffee shop waiting for someone to come pick you up,
you meet the love of your life who's in the
coffee shop. I think that we have to recognize that
there is that sometimes failure is the forcing mechanism to clarity,
(29:13):
and that clarity can either be events or that clarity
can be internally. I've got to stop and rethink whatever
the fuck I'm doing right now, because I know I
want to be there. I was supposed to be there
twenty minutes ago, but for whatever reason, I'm not going
to be there, and I'm here now. Example example I
mean for me. I think one example is I was
(29:37):
going to a gig. This is when I was touring,
and it was a bunch of guys and I musicians
in living in a van and the van was really tall,
so it was like the van size and then there
was like tall van size and I was driving the
van was when you're an artist and you don't have
a big budget, like everybody drives. And we were I
want to say, in Iowa or something, and we were
(29:58):
driving and I went whatever motel we were saying in
and there was like the drive through. But I didn't
see that the van or think that the van was
taller than the top of the ceiling of that awning
structure at the cell okay, and so I like, you
heard the and then it was and it's like my band,
(30:20):
So I'm totally embarrassed, and so I put in reverse.
And it's not like I can afford to fix whatever
it is. But we were stuck there for an extra
two days and I missed a festival date. The festival
date that we didn't go to, there was like a
massive lightning storm tornado thing, and they wound up canceling
it and all this terrible things happened to mean we
(30:41):
were at this location. I mean, that's one example of
you know, I fucked up because I drove this van
into this structure. But on the other hand, if I
hadn't done that, what would have happened to us if
we were there during this like tornado storm that was
happening at the festival. I guess you could say maybe nothing,
(31:02):
but also maybe something.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Josh Hadden is in charge of engineering here at iHeart
in New York City. He set his alarm clock for
six pm for wakeup, when he should have set it
for six am because he was supposed to be at
the World Trade Center that morning. On September eleventh, two
thousand and one. Right, there's a fuck out, right, right,
but look at the payoff?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Right? But that's but isn't that? It? Though? Is that
there are some of these This is the make space
for I think when things happen to us, we're so
in the immediate moment of oh my god, oh my god,
oh my God, that we have to leave like a
little bit of room if possible, to be able to think, Okay,
this is I feel like Oprah or something. But what
(31:49):
in this moment am I supposed to be hearing about
where I am? And if I'm forced to yield and
I have no control and I feel embarrassed in shame,
can I get past that? And I think the problem
is it's it's harder and harder for people to get
past moments of embarrassment because everybody's on camera all the
(32:09):
fucking time. So maybe we can normalize it a little
when you have celebrities talk about their moments of self
doubt and failure, and most of the time it's the
listening to what they really want to say and really
want to do, But the mistake lies in ignoring it.
So like if nobody ever hears this podcast, and the
(32:31):
only thing I get to say to them on your
show is listen and trust what your gut is telling you,
what your voice inside of you is telling you, so
that if you do fuck up, you don't have regrets
because you maybe change direction to please somebody else. And
when you are successful, it'll feel more real to you
because you will have not ignored whatever it was that
(32:54):
compelled you to act doing whatever it is you are
passionate about, including being a nurse and being an uber driver,
or even if you're an uber driver because you want
to make money and survive. You know, if you have
a moment where that is on pause or something happens,
then I just I think, look around. I don't think
we just take I don't think we take time. I
(33:15):
don't think we're very forgiving of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
No, no, we treat ourselves like crap. Why. I don't know.
I don't know. That voice in the head is usually
our worst enemy. Right. So here's my challenge for everyone
listening to this, and I was included, make a mental
list or write down, make a list on a piece
of paper of all the fuck ups in your life,
things that you could have done differently, but you didn't.
(33:40):
You fucked up, but you learned from it right, and
you grew from it, and you were resolute in never
making that mistake ever again. And those are the things
that catapult you into great days and success.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I also think I'd add one piece to that, which
is what good came from it?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Did something good come from it? Even if it's humility
that you apply to yourself. Did something good happen? Did
you meet a person that you never thought you'd meet.
Did you learn something about yourself that went unpacked you
realize helped you to be wherever it is you are.
I you know, listen, this is being human means you
(34:21):
fuck up. Being human, you're in a relationship with someone,
you fuck up, You have friendships, your coworkers. I think
the human fuck ups, the worst human fuck ups are
the ones that go unforgiven, the ones that go without
self reflection. And because we're in this ultra judgment world
(34:42):
right now, I think it's just hard for people. So
I know, for me, I walk away from these conversations
feeling oddly enlightened and also more aware of my many faults,
but also looking at those as has maybe those areas
(35:03):
of development that there's actually real opportunity for me to
excel there and I don't want to miss that. And
I think we going back to you. I just think
it's not that you belong playing sports. The question is
where was that guy little Elvis in the moment and
(35:24):
is he still here in some spaces in your life?
And what does that look like and how does it
impact how you do business or things that you choose
to do. I mean, you are like Diane Warren, your
private life and a secret life, not just the public life.
I hope that social media colmes itself a little bit
so that people feel better about posting photos that it's
(35:47):
not the perfect angle or the perfect moment.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Every day we should strive to post things that show
us at our worst.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
By the way, I would make a bet or a
challenge that if and I'm sure no one would do this,
but I think if someone said for Z one hundred,
for your show or for you, that you said I'm
going to do a week of failure, it's gonna be
failure week, and every week you post some like terrible
photo that's a moment of vulnerability. I bet that you
(36:17):
would get an enormous amount of engagement and likes and
follows and comments, and I agree, and I think and
I think that that is the part that makes I
think that's the part where social media can do a
lot of good.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Very well said Billy. Thank you for coming in, Thank
you for having me. The podcast is called Yeah, I
Fucked that up?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
What you just like saying?
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I like saying it because the title itself is truly
exactly what it is.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Well, my daughter, my nine year old, is like, Dad,
you're and like, as soon as we go into the podcast,
I like feel a bit of embarrassment. But even there,
I think, you know, people curve. I think fuck fuck
is a great word. It really is so many uses,
but I think people like saying it. And in the
(37:09):
same way, I think when people finished having the conversation,
they like the conversation. So hopefully people will listen to
them and they'll feel a little bit more normal.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Billy's story one of my favorite, about never giving up
on what you truly believe in. From his humble beginnings
wanting to play music, it's incredible to see his immense
success in this industry that he just loves. And those
are the stories we love to bring to you on
Thinking Out Loud. If you're enjoying this podcast, why not
leave us a review and give us five stars. We've
got plenty more to share with you in the weeks
(37:41):
to come, so make sure you're subscribed and you'll get
a notification when a new episode drops. Follow me at
Elvis Durant on social media until next time, Peace Out.
Thinking Out Loud is hosted by me Elvis Duran. The
podcast is produced and edited by Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers
are Andrew Paclsi and Katrina Norvell. Thanks to David Katz,
(38:01):
Michael kind Heart and Caitlin Madore. Thinking Out Loud as
part of the Elvis Duran podcast Network on iHeartRadio for more,
rate review and subscribe to our show and if you
liked this episode, tell your friends. Until next time, I'm
Elvis Duran.
Thinking Out Loud With Elvis Duran News
Host
Elvis Duran
Show Links
ElvisDuran.comMore Elvis Duran PodcastsPopular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com