October 3, 2025 • 32 mins
Mark is joined by Penguins hopeful Avery Hayes. Tim Benz joins for some Steelers talk
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the Mark Madden Show. I am Mark Madden.
You probably figured that out already. The number to call
is eight three three four one two w XDX, or
you can do what the cool kids do and follow
me on Twitter at Mark Madden X. As I mentioned
to JB, the thing with youth and how many young
kids you keep. The youth needs to take over the
(00:24):
dressing room immediately. That's a big thing. That youthful energy.
And don't misconstrue Crosby Malkin and La Tang deserve every
inch of respect, but they can't provide that new spark,
that freshness, new guy energy, rookie energy, big time for
(00:45):
the first time. Energy rebuilding just isn't talent and systems
and coaching and with the old out what the new.
It's not that simple. It's also mental and emotional and
buzz and energy, and it's accepting that it ain't gonna
produce what you want right now.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
But you got to try to win every game you can.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Right now, and you've got to construct the foundation for
the big picture. It's not just start over, add more
and more good players. Like I said, energy, mental, emotional, buzz, youth,
it's all part of rebuilding. I've been around the Penguins
since day one, and I remember when seid Gino, Furry
(01:28):
Latang and Stall arrived, and certainly those are unbelievably talented
players and led to Stanley Cupps. Just the talent, but
it was the energy of a talbit also and Tyler Kennedy.
Everything changed, not just the roster, the room change, the
attitude changed, the energy change. There's that word again. And
(01:48):
no matter how bad it gets this year, and it might.
No matter how bad it gets this year, I've seen
worse nineteen eighty four, but not just nineteen eighty four.
And it took a while, but nineteen eighty four and
finishing last and drafting Mario obviously laid the foundation for
every single good thing that's happened since. I like the
(02:11):
energy of these young guys, not just the guys who
could be stars, but bros. Hayes, who's gonna join us
a little bit. Hallander is a sleeper obviously, Coyvenon McGroarty
when he gets back, Brunick if he stays, or when.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
He gets here morishof when he gets here, the foundation
is being built.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I watched hockey, this team my whole life I know
for sure the foundation is being built. And like I
said yesterday, if the Pengans have to win for you
to be a fan, then piss up a rope, because
then you're not really a fan. All I want is
a plan, Kyle Dubis has one. All I want is
a foundation that's being built. All I want is an improvement,
(02:55):
and I see it already. But there's many a slip
TwixT cup and lip if they're doing the right thing,
but nothing's guaranteed. And you gotta get that star prospected forward.
You got the star defensive with Brunick, you got the
star goalie with more shop.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You need that forward.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Your Penguin thoughts at eight three three four one two
w xdx. That's a three to three four one two
w xdx. We got Avery Hayes the Penguin rookie in
about ten minutes. Uh, we've been talking too much about
the Pirates because it's the Steelers bye week. We've been
(03:34):
talking about trading Mitch Keller. That's gonna be the Buckos
big move, although not big enough because they won't get
enough in return. They'll get like a Spencer Horwitz level
bat you watch, that's all they'll get.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
But can you.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Imagine how happy Mitch Keller is gonna be to go
like anywhere else?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It'll be euphoria.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
It'll be like dropping ecstasy and then tacking on a
little iowas you got from Aaron Rodgers, because anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
But picture of the Pirates would be better.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I was thinking about who the anonymous pirate was in
Noah Hiles' story, the guy that ripped the organization. It
wouldn't be a low paid bum, because you'd only get
a job with the Pirates. The way the Pirates are
run benefits a low paid bum getting a minimum major
league pay day. So since it's not a low paid bum,
(04:30):
it wipes out almost the entire roster. Keller and Reynolds
are the likeliest guys to have spewed the Hiles. Maybe
Cutch or fam but I doubt it. Eh Cuts, Yeah,
but he's two walled. He's lucky to have a job.
And like I said earlier, if the Pirates are serious
(04:50):
moving forward, they don't bring Cuts back. If they bring
them back, it's nostalgia at the expensive trying to win.
Then again, Cuts mightn't be almost totally immobile, but he's
better than Jacksonwinski.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So Winsky hit like what one hundred? He was so far.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Below the Mendoza line he couldn't even see Mendoza. So,
like I said, most likely Kellyer Reynolds, that that Mitch Keller,
Brian Reynolds who talked to Hyles maybe cuts fans to
Shirley to try to well, I don't know, I don't know.
That's the kind of stuff a Surley guy would say.
Nick Gonzalez is a long shot. I don't know why,
(05:33):
but I think that Skeins is a long shot. And
that's it. That's the list. But I always find the
off the record quotes intriguing because I like to guess
who'd done it, and those are my best guesses. As
far as you've done it with pickleball, well anybody can
do it.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Here's a great Babylon b headline.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Are you an unathletic, oh who gets winded going up
a flight of stairs? Why pickleball might be for you? Now?
I am an unathletic. Well, I wouldn't say that there
was a time, but I'm an oath I do get
winded going up a single flight of stairs. But my
hatred and disrespect for pickleball will never diminish. It is unathletic.
(06:18):
It's tennis for lazy people. It's table tennis if you're
standing on the table. And I will keep reminding everyone
of that indefinitely, because I think somebody should.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I think it's owed to society. I got an email.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I got a couple nerds who email me constantly, and
they're real hateful, and they're mostly pirate fans. And this
one nerd pointed out, even if they trade Keller, they
got a playoff level rotation. Yeah, you're quoting me in
what I said in the two o'clock hour. You know,
Skins and Chandler, Obao, Ashcraft, Barcoe Burrows, Jared Jones if
(07:01):
he's okay, Yeah, yeah, they do have a playoff caliber rotation.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
They had one this year and lost ninety one games.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I'm next gonna talk to Penguin's rookie Avery Hayes here
on the Mark Madden Show. This is the Home of
the Penguins one oh five ninety X, The Wie Show,
Mark Madden all the Pens to bring the duck tape
type of affairs.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
What's not gonna make us play a wild game? It's
not faris not far. It's not fair.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
The exit one O five nine.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Now it's made an impression of Penguins Camp. He's twenty
two year old winger Avery Hayes. Avery, thank you for
joining me. Like I said, you're you're quite the hit
of camp people are talking about. I see headlines with
your name in him. How'd you make all that happen?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Yeah, hey, Mirk, how's it going? Thanks for having me?
And I don't know. I'm just trying to take it
one day at a time, have fun and enjoy loll
at last and hopefully last for a long time, So
we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Is this a nervous time for you? A guy on
the right near the final cutdown? How do you handle that?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I wouldn't say it's a nervous time. I mean, there's
definitely times where it gets a little stressful, but you
just have to believe that everything happens for a reason
and I just got to control what I can, which
is my performance on the ice and the type of
guy I am in the locker room, the type of
team that I am. So I wouldn't say it's a
nervous time, but it's an exciting time for sure.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Well, some guys are gone and you're still here. That's
a real good thing, right, Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
I guess trying to stay as long as I can. So,
I mean, I'm just trying my best to give the
coaches a tough decision to make and we'll see what
happens from there.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Now, you like to stir it up, be a thorn
in the other team's side. What's your preferred meth that
of doing that? How do you get the other team
to kind of get flustered?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I mean I enjoy being like kind of a rat
on the ice. I feel like if there's games where
I'm kind of feeling a bit out of it, I
always have better rely on and it keeps me involved.
But I don't know, I just like getting stopping in
front of the net after a whistler or something, smiling
at him. They usually piss them off pretty well, which
makes me happy and feels good to get under their skin.
I feel like any advantage you can get, I enjoy getting.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
So it's nice.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Who's the best rat and hockey right now? Who's like
your role model for doing that?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
So, I mean, well, Brad Marsham's probably there.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
You go, bingo That's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
He's been he's been the best at that for a while, so,
I mean he's any any team would take him, and
every team hates him. So it's pretty funny. And I say,
Travis Connecting is another pretty good one.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Now, how do you get to play that way? Avery?
To be a guy that causes a rock this year?
Born with it? When did you start doing it?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
I Mean I have three younger brothers, so my whole life,
I feel like I've kind of just been annoying them
and frustrating them and anything we do. And I always
find that fine, just getting them their skin. So that's
probably probably the biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Now here's a cliched question, but still an interesting one.
What's it like to be on the ice in camp
with Crosby, Malkin, mctang, Carlson, a bunch of Halls of famers,
all those big names.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
No, yeah, it's it's surreal the first time. I mean
it's pretty like you get you get starstruck, but then
you just gotta remember you just gotta go out there
and play because you got to. You gotta make an
impression for yourself. And yeah, that one, that one preseason
game when Flury was in the nut too. We me
and a couple of the younger guys on the bench
who are looking around when Cosby lutang Ross Kyleson walkin
flurry around the ice like it was. It was pretty surreal.
(10:23):
We all grew up watching those guys and it's been
really cool to learn from them.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
What's your interaction been like with those guys, you know,
one on one, like in the locker room stuff like that.
Are those guys very open in terms of being conversational.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah, they're They're unbelievable. I mean, they're just as good
of guys, if not better, as there are players, which
is pretty crazy to say about them with how talented
they are. And yeah, they're amazing with all the younger guys.
If we have any questions, they aren't afraid to ask
and they'll just talk to us like we're normal guys,
which is really nice. So they make it really easy
for us.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Now, you won too Ontario Hockey League championships in junior way.
That's obviously a great experience in and of itself, but
how do you look that experience now in trying to
advance your pro career.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Yeah, it was really cool. It was a really big
experience for me, and that helped me a lot with
my career. And I mean, just that feeling of winning
is something that I always it's addicting. Once you feel
it once, you want to have it every season. So
that's kind of just keeps me hungry. And yeah, I
mean it's made me to play a m today. It
makes me just want to do all the little things
that maybe aren't the prettiest, but they result in winning.
(11:25):
So I'm willing to do whatever it takes to win.
And I feel like that's the biggest thing that I
learned from those two years.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Now, you had kind of a breakthrough your Wilkes Barre
scrant last year put up some numbers.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
What triggered that? How did your game mature in terms
of production?
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah, the year before, I thought I got a really
good camp, and then I kind of got hit with
an injury ten games in and I missed quite a
bit of time, which kind of stung. But I got
to work on a ton of things that year, and
then I got to take all those things into the
off season for the previous summer and then yeah, last year,
I started off I was kind of in and out
of the lineup to start, I thought I had a
good camp before, which I was kind of frustrating, but
(11:59):
I just tried to stay positive, be a good teammate
and then slowly started getting opportunity more as year went on,
and just kind of kind of ran with it. And
now he was playing with great players too, which helps
the time, and the coach has trusted me, So that
was probably the two biggest things.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Now, you went undrafted, Does that put a chip on
a young guy's shoulder.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Yeah, I mean I remember the feeling when I didn't
get drafted. That will always sit with me. It was
one of the more frustrating days of my life because
I thought I was a good enough player. But yeah,
the next couple of days after that, we're pretty sad.
But then I realized, like, no one's gonna feel bad
for me, So I just got to pick myself up
and just use out as fuel for the next couple
of years. And so far it's been good and hopefull
(12:37):
I can keep it going.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
What's Dan Muse like as a head coach, because you
know it's the first year with him for everybody here,
and he has quite a reputation as a teacher, and
a developer.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah, he's he's been honestly so good to all of us,
and especially all of us young guys, because I mean,
for some of us, you have the nerves and stuff
coming in and he makes it so easy, like always
open the questions from and he's super good with explaining
the video and we'll go over every single drone practice
before so we never have any questions about that. And
then on the bench he's super high energy during practice,
(13:09):
he's super high energy. So I mean he's been awesome
so far.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Obviously, like we'll know where you're playing at least for now,
you know, within probably twenty four to forty eight ours, Avery,
But what are your goals for this season? I mean,
you want to stay here, but I'm sure just improving
is is right at the forefront.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Yeah, I mean I'm still young player, so yeah, I'm
just excited to get better in every category and obviously
my goal is here at the Penguin So we'll see
what happens.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Avery, Thank you for taking a time. Good job at camp,
And I got to tell you, guys like you are
valuable here. We've not had enough of them. So if
we don't see it for Game one, I bet we
see you soon.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
I also thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
I agreet that.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
That's Avery Hayes, Penguin's rookie. Will he make it? Will
he not?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I'll guarantee this. He gonna play here this year, Gonna
play here a lot. Maybe not Game one, But you
need guys like that, at that youthful energy I'm talking
about on and off the ice in the dressing room.
Avery Hayes personifies it. He'd be a great bottom six,
better than some old, washed up guy stealing a paycheck.
Not to be critical, Tim Ben's up next. One oh
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Speaker 1 (14:41):
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Speaker 2 (14:49):
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Speaker 3 (14:58):
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Speaker 2 (15:01):
Steelers have a biele.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
You been joining me now to talk about the Black
and Gold from the trib It's Tim Bentz.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Tim.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
If the Steelers win their next two games, will they
win the division? That's kind of what I'm predicting, or
at the very least they'll be in first place come December.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
That's a really good potential to the last part of
it is anyway, Mark, I think the caveat too, that is,
if their turn at injury for a quarterback comes later
in the season, whereas everybody else in the division is
dealing with it now, that could flip the tables. But
for the time being, if they were to get off
to a five to one start with three wins of
(15:36):
the division, I mean, what more can you ask for
before they get to Baltimore, who, by that point, like
you said in early December, might be getting healthy by them.
I made the comment going into the game against Minnesota.
Should the Steelers emerge three and one, and the Ravens
emerge one in three after that game they had against
Kansas City, And I gave you one hundred dollars, Bill,
(15:58):
who would you bet on to still the playoffs if
only one could make it. I would have been on
the Ravens at that point still, But now knowing that
Jackson being hurt for an extended period of time, that
changes the calculus on the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Well, Baltimore, like you said, one and three, their schedule
will get ease here. Jackson will return eventually. But even
beyond Jackson, they're beat up in addition, and their defense.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Just looks bad.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
It just looks like just I didn't expect they Their
personnel is so good, damn, that might be the best
roster in football went healthy.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
But what they have right now is not that. I mean,
they're still banged up. It's starting to look like the
version of the team that came here late in that
twenty twenty COVID season mark with so many backups that
they'll be riding in. Then again, a similar version of
an NFL team that was like that just won a
division game last night with what the forty nine ers
managed to do against the Los Angeles Rams.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Great coach, that's why.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
That's part of it. Yeah, and maybe when Kenny Pickett
gets traded again, he can get traded there and work
the real quarterback coach. They can get something out of them.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
What are your expectations for Dylan Gabriel in his first
start for Cleveland on Sunday versus Minnesota at London, and
presumably he starts against the Steelers the week after as well.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, not much for his banged up as Minnesota is.
And I know they're like flying in free agents overseas
just to get them, get some run, some burn and practice.
You know, that's the defense that can still force some
turnovers and get after the passer. You so what they
did the interior of the Steelers line a few times
in that game over in Ireland. Now, you know, it's
(17:33):
a compressed work week. It's an odd work week for
him to start and begin his NFL career under center.
I think Minnesota wins that game, and I don't expect
it to be particularly pretty on offense for Cleveland.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I expect Pittsburgh to be Cleveland as well. But when
the expectations are so obvious for the Steelers, that's when
the trouble usually starts, and with Miles Garren that defense,
Cleveland always has a puncher's stance.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
They just aren't going to win enough, for sure.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
And the Steelers have continued to be very good against
Cleveland at home. They've had lots of problems on the
road lately against the Browns up there. That's become a
bit of a house of horrors for them in recent seasons. So,
you know, I tend to agree that it's going to
be a grimy, tight, low scoring game when they see
(18:23):
the Browns the first game after their bye, and we'll
see what sort of shape the Browns are in, what
they're thinking is at quarterback by that point, I don't know.
I mean, it's impossible to judge mark what the Browns
ever thinking on anything, let alone quarterbacks. But I would
think the Steelers would go in rightful favorites in that game.
But your point is well taken that when things go
(18:46):
awry for the Steelers, they tend to go a ride
at beyond oddest times, Like, for instance, that twenty twenty
three season, they were sitting pretty at seven and four
going into their schedule after Thanksgiving and they were looking
at Arizona New England and Indianapolis for three straight weeks,
and they lost all three games before they went to
Mason Rudolph. So that's just emblematic of what we've gotten
(19:09):
used to seeing in the post Super Bowl stretch of
the Tomlin era.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
I thought the defense was very good at Dublin for
three quarters, but it got confused in the secondary when
Ramsey went out and look at that long catch and
run by Addison. I'm assuming that was Chuck Kark's fault,
but nobody will confirm it.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Sounded like Terrell Austin just wanted to, you know, take
blame for that himself. That's okay, Yeah, and maybe he
was right, you know, maybe he shouldn't have called something
as complex as that in that situation where the simplest
thing in the world is just keep everything in front
of you, and if you have some sort of signal
that goes goes in that could be confused for anything
besides that, then there's a problem. Like everybody else, I'm
(19:50):
fatigued with the communication issue. Excuse. We've heard that a
million times over. It's not just the Steelers who presented,
It's a lot of teams. When there are blown coverages.
Secondary but few are blown in his obvious manners as
what we saw there from the Steelers in that situation,
with that much field to cover, with that score on
the scoreboard, in time on the clock. It just slaps
(20:13):
you in the face and you have to put it
into part of the greater consideration for how that game went,
because as easy as it is to say, oh, well,
the defense is really good except for that one flukey play, well, okay,
then the passing game only generated one hundred and twenty
yards aside from the one play where dk metcalf went
for eighty. Like, we can play that game if you
want to, or you can just say the score was
(20:33):
what the score was because the players actually happened.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
We're talking to Tim Ben's broad to us by Calucy
Chevrolet serving the Pittsburgh area for one hundred and seven years.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Tim, it was a weird game for Tomlin.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I thought he clearly coached Kevin O'Connell for the first
three quarters, and it pains me physically to say that,
but in the fourth quarter he lived in his fears
and brought Minnesota back in the game.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
It was really weird. It's kind of a microcosm of
a lot of things that we talk about with Tomlin
and have talked about for years, where there's sort of
a bold, brash, in your face nature about how he
wants to be perceived as a coach. But then when
it comes to the nuts and bolts of what the
decision making is, it's actually quite conservative.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I mean, like going forward on it's called gaslighting.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Going forward on fourth down, but then running is the
ultimate of that example. You can't get more Tomlin than that.
Look at me, I'm gonna pound my chest and go
for it. I'm not gonna live in my fears, but
I'm gonna do it really cautiously. In a worst case scenario,
Minnesota just has to go ninety nine yards and we
didn't risk throwing the ball in the end zone. I mean,
that's Tomlin in a nutshell. And then even on the
(21:45):
ensuing situation where they were looking at a fourth down
and they decide to punt it and then blast it
through the back of the end zone, I don't get
any of that. That's not even so much a dichotomy
of thinking and of strategy. That's just a mistake. I
don't know why you do that. I don't know why
(22:05):
you're afraid to yield field position, but then you automatically
yield twenty of the forty yards by having the punter
kicked the ball to the end zone. There was just
a lot of strategic incongruous thinking there.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
In my estimation, Tim, this isn't the offense at all
I expected to see. The top two tight ends have
been minimized. They're very often using six offensive lineman.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Why is that. I'm not saying it's bad, I am
saying it's odd.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Using the sixth offensive lineman worked out to their benefit
against Minnesota. I guess they like the matchup on the
edges in that regard. Good for them. That might go
to your point earlier mark about how they schemed up
and coached up a good game. I imagine that would
have been the thinking for Warren as opposed to gain
Well too. I can't see why it would be any different.
Warren ran that well with the extra guy out there,
(22:54):
good for him. You just can't count on that every week.
That was a career high for him in attempts and yards.
That appears to be an outlier. You can't keep trying
to pump that well. And I hope they don't. The
offense is just said. It's not exactly the offense that
you expect to see. I don't see much offense at all.
There's not much to it. I mean, they have a
very odd stat pack when you look at it. I
(23:16):
mean they're twenty ninth and total yards they're second from last,
and rushing yards per game there's something like twenty sixth
or fifth, and passing yards per game. And yet there
they are right in the middle of the pack at
twenty four points per game, which is pretty much league average.
The two reasons for that. Number One, they have a
field goal kicker that can kick from any distance, so
(23:37):
that makes up three points at a time where their
teams might have to punt. Two, they've been really good
in the red zone, so any chance they get their
largely scoring touchdowns. And three, they're defense and special teams
with turnovers and set them up with some pretty short fields,
so they haven't had to go as far. That's why
they've managed to get by without very much offensive yardage.
(23:58):
But that's a very tenuous formula that I don't think
you can count on once you get by these two
divisional foes that seem to be limping with quarterback situations
that are difficult of their own. On the other sideline,
in Cleveland and Baltimore coming out see me be Cleveland
and Cincinnati coming out of the by.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Should gain One Herbig become starters at least get more
snaps than the guys playing it well, that would have
made them starters. But I think gain Will should be
the number one back, and I think Herbi should at
least split snaps with high Smith.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I think the latter is easier to pull off than
the former. Yes, just because Herbig is so gifted when
it comes to rushing the passer, and if they do
their job on first and second down, it's like, you know,
I don't think it's going to quite get to this.
This is a hyperbolic example to throw out there, but
I'll do it just to prove the point. Like Casey
(24:46):
Hampton was so good at his job, he played himself
off the field, right, Like because he was so good
a stuff in the run, he was barely ever out
there because towards the short stages of his career, you know, right,
And maybe that's what high Smith is. Maybe high Smith
is good enough against the run, and they get better
against the run that the other team is forced into
pure passing situations and they use more her Big since
he seems to be pretty gifted as a pass rusher.
(25:09):
The other one that you advanced, the other example on
the offensive side of the ball. You know, I'm not
wild still about the notion that gain Weell comes on
the field to spell Warren on third down.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
They're the same back. Lauren's a great third down back.
That's his role to me.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, it's replication of skill sets, which is weird, which
is why it's.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Because they've already decided they hate Caleb Johnson not long
after drafting him in the third round.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah, this this notion that they've come to already that
he's behind in the learning curve, and he's done nothing
to disprove that. Unfortunately, he's the guy who could put
in there in first and second down, then play either
of those two guys on third down, and then maybe
the snap distribution is even between Johnson and whoever the
best second the second back is the third down back.
That'll be fine, But Johnson so far behind the curve,
(26:04):
you can't do that. And then, like I said, you
got two guys who are very samy in their skill
sets between Warren and Gainwell. I just think there's more
explosion in Warren. I would have been very curious to
see how Warren would have run behind that offensive line
approach against Minnesota, but now we'll never know.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
And edge Rusher Kim.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
I like Jack Sawyer too, and it makes me wonder
if Alex Heisman is becoming obsolete with all his soft
tissue injuries, which might reflect on his lack of conditioning.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yeah, I don't know what's going on with him in
the injuries. He doesn't strike me as a guy who's
not dedicated or not physically fit. I don't know. It's
just bad luck, body tie at chemistry, whatever. It's just
been too much lately. Sawyer, I think there's potential there.
I think they look at Sawyer and hope he can
be with Demarvin Leal never became, which is pass rush
(26:57):
capable and edge set capable guy who can swing between
both those positions and maybe turn them into more of
a truer four man front as opposed to the art.
I say this at the old school three four approach
and look that we've gotten used to. He can be
a swing guy in that context. They kind of hope
Leo would do that he never turned into that. Maybe
(27:19):
Sawyer can, but he's got to disengage from blocks two.
You know, he's not exactly great at that skill either yet,
as has been the case for a lot of the Steelers' front,
which is why they've had so much trouble against the
run prior to last week against Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Uh, Tim, before we let you go, what's your take
on this City Console woman? Wanting to discuss things with
Bob Nutting. Bob Nutting has every single shred of leverage.
He doesn't have to change what he does on Iota
and City Console the Sea.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
MLB can do nothing about.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
It right until the new lease agreement comes around. Like
to me, this sounds like saber rattling and grand standing politically,
that's what it is. You know, when the new lease
comes around, if you want to bake in some sort
of proposal or condition of what you've got to put
back into the major league team, then so be it.
(28:12):
Good luck with that, whether it's Nutting or whoever you
would decide to sell to. But I think mark the
only arbiter that comes into play as to how Nutting
runs his team will be the Major League rules under
which he operates unless those change significantly with the CBA
in twenty twenty seven. I don't see what motivation there
(28:33):
is for him to run things any differently. You know.
I keep hearing some apologists the team say, well, he's
not making any money. Well, if he's not making any money,
then why is he doing it for the thrill of
competition and finishing fifth every year? He's obviously doing this
for business purposes and based on the terms of the
agreement in the league in which he operates his team
and the building in which that team operates, He's in
(28:55):
a cord, whether we like it or not. I don't
know how that gets changed.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
What would the Pirates get when they trade Mitch Keller
besides not enough, because I think that's going to be
their big move this offseason and their only moves of significance.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
If I were to.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Say a slightly below top tier for that organization, like
a top eleven Ish prospect and a Spencer Horowitz type
that great.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Minds think alike, because I said exactly that Spencer Horowitz,
they'll get the Mitch Keller equivalent of.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
A hitter, yeah, sort of. And I think that's to
say they get two guys like that would be optimistic.
And you know, because Horrorward's finished fairly strong, I think
people will talk themselves into meaning that that'll be more
than what it really will turn out to be in
terms of production and swinging the pendulum. But you know
(29:55):
what resonates in my ear mark is going back to
that Wednesday night game before the end of the season
in Cincinnati, when Skiing's secured being beneath a two era,
he gets pulled. I'm driving home from doing a show
on Fox Sports Pittsburgh nine seventy and I'm listening to
John Wayner in the baseball broadcast on their flagship, and
he's just incredulous, like gobsmacked, looking at the Reds, seeing
(30:19):
as how they'd been shut down two nights in a
row by Pirate pitching and saying, this team can make
the playoffs with eighty four wins. And he was wrong.
That team made the playoffs with eighty three wins. It's
not hard to make the Major League Baseball playoffs anymore.
You just got to be a little above five hundred.
But the Pirates still feel a million miles away because
(30:40):
it's a few million dollars away to do even that.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Oh, it's more than a few million away.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
But I get you, and like the latest volley I'm
hearing from fans is, well they can trade Keller and
then still have a playoff caliber rotation. Well, they had
a playoff caliber rotation this year and lost ninety one games.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Well did they leave? I can't. I don't know how
far back you would have to go to research this
or what you know, exact mechanism you would do for
the comp But when was the last time a team
led the league in shutouts and then finished in last
place by that many games. It's just their rotation was fine,
their pitching was good enough to be a playoff team,
(31:20):
but the hitting is so far away, and I'm just
I'll be curious to see how much of the current
staff they'd have to give away to get a commensurate
batting order in there to be.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Oh, the only way to do that is free agency,
and they just won't spend. And no free agent would
see this as an attractive destination, no, almost, no matter
what the price, Like I aren't. Some dipstick called the
B team the other day tim and talked about getting
Suarez from.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Seattle at any price.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
After hitting like forty something home runs why would he
want to go from a division champ to the baseball
equivalent of Dante's Inferno.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
What was the name of the center fielder they had
for like half a year, Jerome Dyson. I was there
in the scrum. I remember, I said, So, what made
you decide on coming to Pittsburgh. He's like, they asked
nobody else did. That was the other part of that answer.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
They asked that no one else did.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
If somebody else asks, a player like Suarez is gonna
go to somebody else unless the Pirates drastically overpay, which
they're not inclined to do. And if they do that
for one guy, they won't do it for a second.
And like we just said, they probably need more than
two bats to get to that eighty three win level,
eighty four win level, which Wayerd was very prescient to
point out that night on the broadcast.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
It's like Richard Pryor his routine when he talked to
the guy in prison, he said, why did you kill
everybody in the house?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
And he said he was home.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Tim goodstuff will talk soon, all right, Mark, we'll talking
the podcast on Monday.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
That's Tim Benz, Mark Madden
This is the Mark Madden Show. I am Mark Madden.
You probably figured that out already. The number to call
is eight three three four one two w XDX, or
you can do what the cool kids do and follow
me on Twitter at Mark Madden X. As I mentioned
to JB, the thing with youth and how many young
kids you keep. The youth needs to take over the
(00:24):
dressing room immediately. That's a big thing. That youthful energy.
And don't misconstrue Crosby Malkin and La Tang deserve every
inch of respect, but they can't provide that new spark,
that freshness, new guy energy, rookie energy, big time for
(00:45):
the first time. Energy rebuilding just isn't talent and systems
and coaching and with the old out what the new.
It's not that simple. It's also mental and emotional and
buzz and energy, and it's accepting that it ain't gonna
produce what you want right now.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
But you got to try to win every game you can.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Right now, and you've got to construct the foundation for
the big picture. It's not just start over, add more
and more good players. Like I said, energy, mental, emotional, buzz, youth,
it's all part of rebuilding. I've been around the Penguins
since day one, and I remember when seid Gino, Furry
(01:28):
Latang and Stall arrived, and certainly those are unbelievably talented
players and led to Stanley Cupps. Just the talent, but
it was the energy of a talbit also and Tyler Kennedy.
Everything changed, not just the roster, the room change, the
attitude changed, the energy change. There's that word again. And
(01:48):
no matter how bad it gets this year, and it might.
No matter how bad it gets this year, I've seen
worse nineteen eighty four, but not just nineteen eighty four.
And it took a while, but nineteen eighty four and
finishing last and drafting Mario obviously laid the foundation for
every single good thing that's happened since. I like the
(02:11):
energy of these young guys, not just the guys who
could be stars, but bros. Hayes, who's gonna join us
a little bit. Hallander is a sleeper obviously, Coyvenon McGroarty
when he gets back, Brunick if he stays, or when.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
He gets here morishof when he gets here, the foundation
is being built.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I watched hockey, this team my whole life I know
for sure the foundation is being built. And like I
said yesterday, if the Pengans have to win for you
to be a fan, then piss up a rope, because
then you're not really a fan. All I want is
a plan, Kyle Dubis has one. All I want is
a foundation that's being built. All I want is an improvement,
(02:55):
and I see it already. But there's many a slip
TwixT cup and lip if they're doing the right thing,
but nothing's guaranteed. And you gotta get that star prospected forward.
You got the star defensive with Brunick, you got the
star goalie with more shop.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You need that forward.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Your Penguin thoughts at eight three three four one two
w xdx. That's a three to three four one two
w xdx. We got Avery Hayes the Penguin rookie in
about ten minutes. Uh, we've been talking too much about
the Pirates because it's the Steelers bye week. We've been
(03:34):
talking about trading Mitch Keller. That's gonna be the Buckos
big move, although not big enough because they won't get
enough in return. They'll get like a Spencer Horwitz level
bat you watch, that's all they'll get.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
But can you.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Imagine how happy Mitch Keller is gonna be to go
like anywhere else?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It'll be euphoria.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
It'll be like dropping ecstasy and then tacking on a
little iowas you got from Aaron Rodgers, because anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
But picture of the Pirates would be better.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I was thinking about who the anonymous pirate was in
Noah Hiles' story, the guy that ripped the organization. It
wouldn't be a low paid bum, because you'd only get
a job with the Pirates. The way the Pirates are
run benefits a low paid bum getting a minimum major
league pay day. So since it's not a low paid bum,
(04:30):
it wipes out almost the entire roster. Keller and Reynolds
are the likeliest guys to have spewed the Hiles. Maybe
Cutch or fam but I doubt it. Eh Cuts, Yeah,
but he's two walled. He's lucky to have a job.
And like I said earlier, if the Pirates are serious
(04:50):
moving forward, they don't bring Cuts back. If they bring
them back, it's nostalgia at the expensive trying to win.
Then again, Cuts mightn't be almost totally immobile, but he's
better than Jacksonwinski.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So Winsky hit like what one hundred? He was so far.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Below the Mendoza line he couldn't even see Mendoza. So,
like I said, most likely Kellyer Reynolds, that that Mitch Keller,
Brian Reynolds who talked to Hyles maybe cuts fans to
Shirley to try to well, I don't know, I don't know.
That's the kind of stuff a Surley guy would say.
Nick Gonzalez is a long shot. I don't know why,
(05:33):
but I think that Skeins is a long shot. And
that's it. That's the list. But I always find the
off the record quotes intriguing because I like to guess
who'd done it, and those are my best guesses. As
far as you've done it with pickleball, well anybody can
do it.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Here's a great Babylon b headline.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Are you an unathletic, oh who gets winded going up
a flight of stairs? Why pickleball might be for you? Now?
I am an unathletic. Well, I wouldn't say that there
was a time, but I'm an oath I do get
winded going up a single flight of stairs. But my
hatred and disrespect for pickleball will never diminish. It is unathletic.
(06:18):
It's tennis for lazy people. It's table tennis if you're
standing on the table. And I will keep reminding everyone
of that indefinitely, because I think somebody should.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I think it's owed to society. I got an email.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I got a couple nerds who email me constantly, and
they're real hateful, and they're mostly pirate fans. And this
one nerd pointed out, even if they trade Keller, they
got a playoff level rotation. Yeah, you're quoting me in
what I said in the two o'clock hour. You know,
Skins and Chandler, Obao, Ashcraft, Barcoe Burrows, Jared Jones if
(07:01):
he's okay, Yeah, yeah, they do have a playoff caliber rotation.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
They had one this year and lost ninety one games.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I'm next gonna talk to Penguin's rookie Avery Hayes here
on the Mark Madden Show. This is the Home of
the Penguins one oh five ninety X, The Wie Show,
Mark Madden all the Pens to bring the duck tape
type of affairs.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
What's not gonna make us play a wild game? It's
not faris not far. It's not fair.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
The exit one O five nine.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Now it's made an impression of Penguins Camp. He's twenty
two year old winger Avery Hayes. Avery, thank you for
joining me. Like I said, you're you're quite the hit
of camp people are talking about. I see headlines with
your name in him. How'd you make all that happen?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Yeah, hey, Mirk, how's it going? Thanks for having me?
And I don't know. I'm just trying to take it
one day at a time, have fun and enjoy loll
at last and hopefully last for a long time, So
we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Is this a nervous time for you? A guy on
the right near the final cutdown? How do you handle that?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I wouldn't say it's a nervous time. I mean, there's
definitely times where it gets a little stressful, but you
just have to believe that everything happens for a reason
and I just got to control what I can, which
is my performance on the ice and the type of
guy I am in the locker room, the type of
team that I am. So I wouldn't say it's a
nervous time, but it's an exciting time for sure.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Well, some guys are gone and you're still here. That's
a real good thing, right, Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
I guess trying to stay as long as I can. So,
I mean, I'm just trying my best to give the
coaches a tough decision to make and we'll see what
happens from there.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Now, you like to stir it up, be a thorn
in the other team's side. What's your preferred meth that
of doing that? How do you get the other team
to kind of get flustered?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I mean I enjoy being like kind of a rat
on the ice. I feel like if there's games where
I'm kind of feeling a bit out of it, I
always have better rely on and it keeps me involved.
But I don't know, I just like getting stopping in
front of the net after a whistler or something, smiling
at him. They usually piss them off pretty well, which
makes me happy and feels good to get under their skin.
I feel like any advantage you can get, I enjoy getting.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
So it's nice.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Who's the best rat and hockey right now? Who's like
your role model for doing that?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
So, I mean, well, Brad Marsham's probably there.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
You go, bingo That's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
He's been he's been the best at that for a while, so,
I mean he's any any team would take him, and
every team hates him. So it's pretty funny. And I say,
Travis Connecting is another pretty good one.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Now, how do you get to play that way? Avery?
To be a guy that causes a rock this year?
Born with it? When did you start doing it?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
I Mean I have three younger brothers, so my whole life,
I feel like I've kind of just been annoying them
and frustrating them and anything we do. And I always
find that fine, just getting them their skin. So that's
probably probably the biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Now here's a cliched question, but still an interesting one.
What's it like to be on the ice in camp
with Crosby, Malkin, mctang, Carlson, a bunch of Halls of famers,
all those big names.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
No, yeah, it's it's surreal the first time. I mean
it's pretty like you get you get starstruck, but then
you just gotta remember you just gotta go out there
and play because you got to. You gotta make an
impression for yourself. And yeah, that one, that one preseason
game when Flury was in the nut too. We me
and a couple of the younger guys on the bench
who are looking around when Cosby lutang Ross Kyleson walkin
flurry around the ice like it was. It was pretty surreal.
(10:23):
We all grew up watching those guys and it's been
really cool to learn from them.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
What's your interaction been like with those guys, you know,
one on one, like in the locker room stuff like that.
Are those guys very open in terms of being conversational.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah, they're They're unbelievable. I mean, they're just as good
of guys, if not better, as there are players, which
is pretty crazy to say about them with how talented
they are. And yeah, they're amazing with all the younger guys.
If we have any questions, they aren't afraid to ask
and they'll just talk to us like we're normal guys,
which is really nice. So they make it really easy
for us.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Now, you won too Ontario Hockey League championships in junior way.
That's obviously a great experience in and of itself, but
how do you look that experience now in trying to
advance your pro career.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Yeah, it was really cool. It was a really big
experience for me, and that helped me a lot with
my career. And I mean, just that feeling of winning
is something that I always it's addicting. Once you feel
it once, you want to have it every season. So
that's kind of just keeps me hungry. And yeah, I
mean it's made me to play a m today. It
makes me just want to do all the little things
that maybe aren't the prettiest, but they result in winning.
(11:25):
So I'm willing to do whatever it takes to win.
And I feel like that's the biggest thing that I
learned from those two years.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Now, you had kind of a breakthrough your Wilkes Barre
scrant last year put up some numbers.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
What triggered that? How did your game mature in terms
of production?
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah, the year before, I thought I got a really
good camp, and then I kind of got hit with
an injury ten games in and I missed quite a
bit of time, which kind of stung. But I got
to work on a ton of things that year, and
then I got to take all those things into the
off season for the previous summer and then yeah, last year,
I started off I was kind of in and out
of the lineup to start, I thought I had a
good camp before, which I was kind of frustrating, but
(11:59):
I just tried to stay positive, be a good teammate
and then slowly started getting opportunity more as year went on,
and just kind of kind of ran with it. And
now he was playing with great players too, which helps
the time, and the coach has trusted me, So that
was probably the two biggest things.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Now, you went undrafted, Does that put a chip on
a young guy's shoulder.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Yeah, I mean I remember the feeling when I didn't
get drafted. That will always sit with me. It was
one of the more frustrating days of my life because
I thought I was a good enough player. But yeah,
the next couple of days after that, we're pretty sad.
But then I realized, like, no one's gonna feel bad
for me, So I just got to pick myself up
and just use out as fuel for the next couple
of years. And so far it's been good and hopefull
(12:37):
I can keep it going.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
What's Dan Muse like as a head coach, because you
know it's the first year with him for everybody here,
and he has quite a reputation as a teacher, and
a developer.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah, he's he's been honestly so good to all of us,
and especially all of us young guys, because I mean,
for some of us, you have the nerves and stuff
coming in and he makes it so easy, like always
open the questions from and he's super good with explaining
the video and we'll go over every single drone practice
before so we never have any questions about that. And
then on the bench he's super high energy during practice,
(13:09):
he's super high energy. So I mean he's been awesome
so far.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Obviously, like we'll know where you're playing at least for now,
you know, within probably twenty four to forty eight ours, Avery,
But what are your goals for this season? I mean,
you want to stay here, but I'm sure just improving
is is right at the forefront.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Yeah, I mean I'm still young player, so yeah, I'm
just excited to get better in every category and obviously
my goal is here at the Penguin So we'll see
what happens.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Avery, Thank you for taking a time. Good job at camp,
And I got to tell you, guys like you are
valuable here. We've not had enough of them. So if
we don't see it for Game one, I bet we
see you soon.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
I also thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
I agreet that.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
That's Avery Hayes, Penguin's rookie. Will he make it? Will
he not?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I'll guarantee this. He gonna play here this year, Gonna
play here a lot. Maybe not Game one, But you
need guys like that, at that youthful energy I'm talking
about on and off the ice in the dressing room.
Avery Hayes personifies it. He'd be a great bottom six,
better than some old, washed up guy stealing a paycheck.
Not to be critical, Tim Ben's up next. One oh
(14:13):
five nine. One oh five nine d X has your
shot at extra cash because we're nice.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Thirteen times a day, nine am through nine pm, The
X will give you the keyword at the top of
every hour. Enterate at wxdx.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Dot com and you could win one thousand dollars jesting
you can spread it on the bed and roll around
at one.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Thousand dollars or whatever is your money. Listen all day
for your chance had some extra cash on one oh
five nine The X. If you can't get enough.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
If you're Pittsburgh Steelers, then check out the latest podcast
from Steelers Nation Radio, a part of the Steelers Audio
Network hundreds of hours.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Of excludius Mark Madden. Damn it, I'll be popular at
Pittsburgh yet, Hey, fan, I think I gotta start with
pull pork, nachos, fantastic.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
The X at one oh five nine.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Steelers have a biele.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
You been joining me now to talk about the Black
and Gold from the trib It's Tim Bentz.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Tim.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
If the Steelers win their next two games, will they
win the division? That's kind of what I'm predicting, or
at the very least they'll be in first place come December.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
That's a really good potential to the last part of
it is anyway, Mark, I think the caveat too, that is,
if their turn at injury for a quarterback comes later
in the season, whereas everybody else in the division is
dealing with it now, that could flip the tables. But
for the time being, if they were to get off
to a five to one start with three wins of
(15:36):
the division, I mean, what more can you ask for
before they get to Baltimore, who, by that point, like
you said in early December, might be getting healthy by them.
I made the comment going into the game against Minnesota.
Should the Steelers emerge three and one, and the Ravens
emerge one in three after that game they had against
Kansas City, And I gave you one hundred dollars, Bill,
(15:58):
who would you bet on to still the playoffs if
only one could make it. I would have been on
the Ravens at that point still, But now knowing that
Jackson being hurt for an extended period of time, that
changes the calculus on the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Well, Baltimore, like you said, one and three, their schedule
will get ease here. Jackson will return eventually. But even
beyond Jackson, they're beat up in addition, and their defense.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Just looks bad.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
It just looks like just I didn't expect they Their
personnel is so good, damn, that might be the best
roster in football went healthy.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
But what they have right now is not that. I mean,
they're still banged up. It's starting to look like the
version of the team that came here late in that
twenty twenty COVID season mark with so many backups that
they'll be riding in. Then again, a similar version of
an NFL team that was like that just won a
division game last night with what the forty nine ers
managed to do against the Los Angeles Rams.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Great coach, that's why.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
That's part of it. Yeah, and maybe when Kenny Pickett
gets traded again, he can get traded there and work
the real quarterback coach. They can get something out of them.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
What are your expectations for Dylan Gabriel in his first
start for Cleveland on Sunday versus Minnesota at London, and
presumably he starts against the Steelers the week after as well.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, not much for his banged up as Minnesota is.
And I know they're like flying in free agents overseas
just to get them, get some run, some burn and practice.
You know, that's the defense that can still force some
turnovers and get after the passer. You so what they
did the interior of the Steelers line a few times
in that game over in Ireland. Now, you know, it's
(17:33):
a compressed work week. It's an odd work week for
him to start and begin his NFL career under center.
I think Minnesota wins that game, and I don't expect
it to be particularly pretty on offense for Cleveland.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I expect Pittsburgh to be Cleveland as well. But when
the expectations are so obvious for the Steelers, that's when
the trouble usually starts, and with Miles Garren that defense,
Cleveland always has a puncher's stance.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
They just aren't going to win enough, for sure.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
And the Steelers have continued to be very good against
Cleveland at home. They've had lots of problems on the
road lately against the Browns up there. That's become a
bit of a house of horrors for them in recent seasons. So,
you know, I tend to agree that it's going to
be a grimy, tight, low scoring game when they see
(18:23):
the Browns the first game after their bye, and we'll
see what sort of shape the Browns are in, what
they're thinking is at quarterback by that point, I don't know.
I mean, it's impossible to judge mark what the Browns
ever thinking on anything, let alone quarterbacks. But I would
think the Steelers would go in rightful favorites in that game.
But your point is well taken that when things go
(18:46):
awry for the Steelers, they tend to go a ride
at beyond oddest times, Like, for instance, that twenty twenty
three season, they were sitting pretty at seven and four
going into their schedule after Thanksgiving and they were looking
at Arizona New England and Indianapolis for three straight weeks,
and they lost all three games before they went to
Mason Rudolph. So that's just emblematic of what we've gotten
(19:09):
used to seeing in the post Super Bowl stretch of
the Tomlin era.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
I thought the defense was very good at Dublin for
three quarters, but it got confused in the secondary when
Ramsey went out and look at that long catch and
run by Addison. I'm assuming that was Chuck Kark's fault,
but nobody will confirm it.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Sounded like Terrell Austin just wanted to, you know, take
blame for that himself. That's okay, Yeah, and maybe he
was right, you know, maybe he shouldn't have called something
as complex as that in that situation where the simplest
thing in the world is just keep everything in front
of you, and if you have some sort of signal
that goes goes in that could be confused for anything
besides that, then there's a problem. Like everybody else, I'm
(19:50):
fatigued with the communication issue. Excuse. We've heard that a
million times over. It's not just the Steelers who presented,
It's a lot of teams. When there are blown coverages.
Secondary but few are blown in his obvious manners as
what we saw there from the Steelers in that situation,
with that much field to cover, with that score on
the scoreboard, in time on the clock. It just slaps
(20:13):
you in the face and you have to put it
into part of the greater consideration for how that game went,
because as easy as it is to say, oh, well,
the defense is really good except for that one flukey play, well, okay,
then the passing game only generated one hundred and twenty
yards aside from the one play where dk metcalf went
for eighty. Like, we can play that game if you
want to, or you can just say the score was
(20:33):
what the score was because the players actually happened.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
We're talking to Tim Ben's broad to us by Calucy
Chevrolet serving the Pittsburgh area for one hundred and seven years.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Tim, it was a weird game for Tomlin.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I thought he clearly coached Kevin O'Connell for the first
three quarters, and it pains me physically to say that,
but in the fourth quarter he lived in his fears
and brought Minnesota back in the game.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
It was really weird. It's kind of a microcosm of
a lot of things that we talk about with Tomlin
and have talked about for years, where there's sort of
a bold, brash, in your face nature about how he
wants to be perceived as a coach. But then when
it comes to the nuts and bolts of what the
decision making is, it's actually quite conservative.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I mean, like going forward on it's called gaslighting.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Going forward on fourth down, but then running is the
ultimate of that example. You can't get more Tomlin than that.
Look at me, I'm gonna pound my chest and go
for it. I'm not gonna live in my fears, but
I'm gonna do it really cautiously. In a worst case scenario,
Minnesota just has to go ninety nine yards and we
didn't risk throwing the ball in the end zone. I mean,
that's Tomlin in a nutshell. And then even on the
(21:45):
ensuing situation where they were looking at a fourth down
and they decide to punt it and then blast it
through the back of the end zone, I don't get
any of that. That's not even so much a dichotomy
of thinking and of strategy. That's just a mistake. I
don't know why you do that. I don't know why
(22:05):
you're afraid to yield field position, but then you automatically
yield twenty of the forty yards by having the punter
kicked the ball to the end zone. There was just
a lot of strategic incongruous thinking there.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
In my estimation, Tim, this isn't the offense at all
I expected to see. The top two tight ends have
been minimized. They're very often using six offensive lineman.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Why is that. I'm not saying it's bad, I am
saying it's odd.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Using the sixth offensive lineman worked out to their benefit
against Minnesota. I guess they like the matchup on the
edges in that regard. Good for them. That might go
to your point earlier mark about how they schemed up
and coached up a good game. I imagine that would
have been the thinking for Warren as opposed to gain
Well too. I can't see why it would be any different.
Warren ran that well with the extra guy out there,
(22:54):
good for him. You just can't count on that every week.
That was a career high for him in attempts and yards.
That appears to be an outlier. You can't keep trying
to pump that well. And I hope they don't. The
offense is just said. It's not exactly the offense that
you expect to see. I don't see much offense at all.
There's not much to it. I mean, they have a
very odd stat pack when you look at it. I
(23:16):
mean they're twenty ninth and total yards they're second from last,
and rushing yards per game there's something like twenty sixth
or fifth, and passing yards per game. And yet there
they are right in the middle of the pack at
twenty four points per game, which is pretty much league average.
The two reasons for that. Number One, they have a
field goal kicker that can kick from any distance, so
(23:37):
that makes up three points at a time where their
teams might have to punt. Two, they've been really good
in the red zone, so any chance they get their
largely scoring touchdowns. And three, they're defense and special teams
with turnovers and set them up with some pretty short fields,
so they haven't had to go as far. That's why
they've managed to get by without very much offensive yardage.
(23:58):
But that's a very tenuous formula that I don't think
you can count on once you get by these two
divisional foes that seem to be limping with quarterback situations
that are difficult of their own. On the other sideline,
in Cleveland and Baltimore coming out see me be Cleveland
and Cincinnati coming out of the by.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Should gain One Herbig become starters at least get more
snaps than the guys playing it well, that would have
made them starters. But I think gain Will should be
the number one back, and I think Herbi should at
least split snaps with high Smith.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I think the latter is easier to pull off than
the former. Yes, just because Herbig is so gifted when
it comes to rushing the passer, and if they do
their job on first and second down, it's like, you know,
I don't think it's going to quite get to this.
This is a hyperbolic example to throw out there, but
I'll do it just to prove the point. Like Casey
(24:46):
Hampton was so good at his job, he played himself
off the field, right, Like because he was so good
a stuff in the run, he was barely ever out
there because towards the short stages of his career, you know, right,
And maybe that's what high Smith is. Maybe high Smith
is good enough against the run, and they get better
against the run that the other team is forced into
pure passing situations and they use more her Big since
he seems to be pretty gifted as a pass rusher.
(25:09):
The other one that you advanced, the other example on
the offensive side of the ball. You know, I'm not
wild still about the notion that gain Weell comes on
the field to spell Warren on third down.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
They're the same back. Lauren's a great third down back.
That's his role to me.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, it's replication of skill sets, which is weird, which
is why it's.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Because they've already decided they hate Caleb Johnson not long
after drafting him in the third round.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah, this this notion that they've come to already that
he's behind in the learning curve, and he's done nothing
to disprove that. Unfortunately, he's the guy who could put
in there in first and second down, then play either
of those two guys on third down, and then maybe
the snap distribution is even between Johnson and whoever the
best second the second back is the third down back.
That'll be fine, But Johnson so far behind the curve,
(26:04):
you can't do that. And then, like I said, you
got two guys who are very samy in their skill
sets between Warren and Gainwell. I just think there's more
explosion in Warren. I would have been very curious to
see how Warren would have run behind that offensive line
approach against Minnesota, but now we'll never know.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
And edge Rusher Kim.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
I like Jack Sawyer too, and it makes me wonder
if Alex Heisman is becoming obsolete with all his soft
tissue injuries, which might reflect on his lack of conditioning.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yeah, I don't know what's going on with him in
the injuries. He doesn't strike me as a guy who's
not dedicated or not physically fit. I don't know. It's
just bad luck, body tie at chemistry, whatever. It's just
been too much lately. Sawyer, I think there's potential there.
I think they look at Sawyer and hope he can
be with Demarvin Leal never became, which is pass rush
(26:57):
capable and edge set capable guy who can swing between
both those positions and maybe turn them into more of
a truer four man front as opposed to the art.
I say this at the old school three four approach
and look that we've gotten used to. He can be
a swing guy in that context. They kind of hope
Leo would do that he never turned into that. Maybe
(27:19):
Sawyer can, but he's got to disengage from blocks two.
You know, he's not exactly great at that skill either yet,
as has been the case for a lot of the Steelers' front,
which is why they've had so much trouble against the
run prior to last week against Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Uh, Tim, before we let you go, what's your take
on this City Console woman? Wanting to discuss things with
Bob Nutting. Bob Nutting has every single shred of leverage.
He doesn't have to change what he does on Iota
and City Console the Sea.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
MLB can do nothing about.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
It right until the new lease agreement comes around. Like
to me, this sounds like saber rattling and grand standing politically,
that's what it is. You know, when the new lease
comes around, if you want to bake in some sort
of proposal or condition of what you've got to put
back into the major league team, then so be it.
(28:12):
Good luck with that, whether it's Nutting or whoever you
would decide to sell to. But I think mark the
only arbiter that comes into play as to how Nutting
runs his team will be the Major League rules under
which he operates unless those change significantly with the CBA
in twenty twenty seven. I don't see what motivation there
(28:33):
is for him to run things any differently. You know.
I keep hearing some apologists the team say, well, he's
not making any money. Well, if he's not making any money,
then why is he doing it for the thrill of
competition and finishing fifth every year? He's obviously doing this
for business purposes and based on the terms of the
agreement in the league in which he operates his team
and the building in which that team operates, He's in
(28:55):
a cord, whether we like it or not. I don't
know how that gets changed.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
What would the Pirates get when they trade Mitch Keller
besides not enough, because I think that's going to be
their big move this offseason and their only moves of significance.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
If I were to.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Say a slightly below top tier for that organization, like
a top eleven Ish prospect and a Spencer Horowitz type
that great.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Minds think alike, because I said exactly that Spencer Horowitz,
they'll get the Mitch Keller equivalent of.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
A hitter, yeah, sort of. And I think that's to
say they get two guys like that would be optimistic.
And you know, because Horrorward's finished fairly strong, I think
people will talk themselves into meaning that that'll be more
than what it really will turn out to be in
terms of production and swinging the pendulum. But you know
(29:55):
what resonates in my ear mark is going back to
that Wednesday night game before the end of the season
in Cincinnati, when Skiing's secured being beneath a two era,
he gets pulled. I'm driving home from doing a show
on Fox Sports Pittsburgh nine seventy and I'm listening to
John Wayner in the baseball broadcast on their flagship, and
he's just incredulous, like gobsmacked, looking at the Reds, seeing
(30:19):
as how they'd been shut down two nights in a
row by Pirate pitching and saying, this team can make
the playoffs with eighty four wins. And he was wrong.
That team made the playoffs with eighty three wins. It's
not hard to make the Major League Baseball playoffs anymore.
You just got to be a little above five hundred.
But the Pirates still feel a million miles away because
(30:40):
it's a few million dollars away to do even that.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Oh, it's more than a few million away.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
But I get you, and like the latest volley I'm
hearing from fans is, well they can trade Keller and
then still have a playoff caliber rotation. Well, they had
a playoff caliber rotation this year and lost ninety one games.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Well did they leave? I can't. I don't know how
far back you would have to go to research this
or what you know, exact mechanism you would do for
the comp But when was the last time a team
led the league in shutouts and then finished in last
place by that many games. It's just their rotation was fine,
their pitching was good enough to be a playoff team,
(31:20):
but the hitting is so far away, and I'm just
I'll be curious to see how much of the current
staff they'd have to give away to get a commensurate
batting order in there to be.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Oh, the only way to do that is free agency,
and they just won't spend. And no free agent would
see this as an attractive destination, no, almost, no matter
what the price, Like I aren't. Some dipstick called the
B team the other day tim and talked about getting
Suarez from.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Seattle at any price.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
After hitting like forty something home runs why would he
want to go from a division champ to the baseball
equivalent of Dante's Inferno.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
What was the name of the center fielder they had
for like half a year, Jerome Dyson. I was there
in the scrum. I remember, I said, So, what made
you decide on coming to Pittsburgh. He's like, they asked
nobody else did. That was the other part of that answer.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
They asked that no one else did.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
If somebody else asks, a player like Suarez is gonna
go to somebody else unless the Pirates drastically overpay, which
they're not inclined to do. And if they do that
for one guy, they won't do it for a second.
And like we just said, they probably need more than
two bats to get to that eighty three win level,
eighty four win level, which Wayerd was very prescient to
point out that night on the broadcast.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
It's like Richard Pryor his routine when he talked to
the guy in prison, he said, why did you kill
everybody in the house?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
And he said he was home.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Tim goodstuff will talk soon, all right, Mark, we'll talking
the podcast on Monday.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
That's Tim Benz, Mark Madden
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