Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We know that legislation enabling police powers to stop and
search individuals for knives and other weapons unlawfully possessed in
public places will it pass through Parliament on urgency overnight.
Those changes will authorize the police to use handheld scanners
to detect, sees and destroy weapons being carried by individuals,
also known as wanding. Now joining me in the studio
(00:23):
to talk more about this from that real operational perspective
is the Assistant Commissioner Travis Worth.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Good morning to you, Travis.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Morning, Katie.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
How are you very well?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Now you've actually bought in. I know that our listeners
can't see this, but we'll try and get a photo
because you've actually bought in one of these devices for
us this morning. It's actually really quite small.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
It's compacted, so this is what Codie's talking about as
a wand it's probably no more than twenty five centimeters long.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's hand held, YEP.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
It's designed to fit on to a police officer's accouterm
and belt or something similar. It's really quite intrusive. It
is simply the designed to do an external quick windover
and if there's metal in someone's pocket, obviously including a
knife or something similar, it will indicate and then police
will take the next step if re.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Quiet how many of those are we going to hat?
Speaker 4 (01:14):
So the legislation was passed overnight. Procurement will now commence
and is our intent in the first instance to procure
two hundred so there's sufficient devices to go to all
stations across the territory and focus particularly on the regional
urban settings.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
In the first instance, an assistant commissioner, will it be
something that you know that a police officer can kind
of just have on the.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Belt look if need be, or they maintain it in
their motor vehicles, so it's quite The legislation is really
clear around when police can and cannot use these devices.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So police cannot.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Just walk up to anyone anywhere and start using this
device unless they suspect someone's already carrying a control weapon.
The law already says that we can do certain things.
In that instance, this will just will be able to
use this device for those instances these might be personal issue.
They'll be issued to police stations and for people to
take out on patrol with them. At this stage, we
(02:11):
may get to that point, so tell.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Me, because there's been a lot of sort of questions
I guess over the last twenty four hours about these
different areas that are spoken about, so sixteen different areas
and just sort of having a closer look at those.
So some of those include will Korama Precinct, Parapp Precinct,
Fanny Bay Precinct, Bundilla Beach, Leanna Stuart Park, Marra Malac,
(02:36):
Nightcliffe and the Nightcliff Foreshore Precinct. Now how large are
those precinct areas.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
So just for your clarity for your listeners, declared high
risk areas are not new. They have been around for
quite some time. They exist within the Liquor Act. These
are the ones you've described a new or existing areas
that have been amended. So the Darwin CBD, for example,
(03:03):
has already had a declared area in place. Alice Springs
CBD has a declared area in place. The intent of
that was to manage our correlated harm around licensed premises,
whether they be on premise so nightclubs, pubs or takeaway outlets.
That was the initial intent, and this legislation or these
(03:25):
additional declarations expand some of those areas sign Alice Springs
and includes Anti Hill. Now for example, in Palmerston, the
expansion includes gateway because there's an alcohol outlet in that location,
takeaway and on premise, and then some additional new areas
based on the evidence that we've collected over time. This
is all evidence based and these declarations are based on
(03:47):
where we see issues that are alcorelated. So the legislation
that relates to wanding is utilizing those liquoric highrisk declared areas.
Those locations are very specific the INTI government website. People
can search the website, it will tell them exactly where
they are. They are defined boundaries. The idea of this
(04:09):
wandering legislation is that if something occurs in one of
those locations. So the way the legislation's drafta it says
in the last six months. But I'll give you a
practical example. Yeah, we have someone we've just arrested in
possession of a knife at a location. The authorized officer
that can be a senior sergeant or above, can be
(04:32):
given that information. They will then assess that information against
the number of criteria. So we've got someone in custody
for an offense that's applicable. Those offenses can be someone
armed with a controlled weapon. As I said, a violence
offense has been committed or one or more weapons offenses
has been committed. We then need to assess the location
(04:53):
the impact using the ones will have at that location.
So is it going to actually affect the ability of
people to use that particular area. It might be a
bus interchange, it could be a shopping center, It could
be all sorts of things, depending on where it is,
whether we've used the scanning in that location previously, and
whether it was effective in increasing public safety. That senior
(05:16):
sergeant or above will assess all that information and then
provide advice.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Is there going to be sort of a delay, you know,
if we've got somebody who let's just kind of trying
to talk this through practically in my brain, so I
know our listeners will be feeling the same as well.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So let's say that somebody is at.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
The Casuarina Bus Exchange for want of a location, there
is somebody there who is armed or they believe is
armed or threatening somebody with a knife.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
They call the police.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
The police then head out to the Casuarina Bus Exchange.
Can the police then, like on their way out there,
go all right, well, we need to search those that
we you know, or like everybody in the vicinity of
that area to make sure that there is or is
not somebody with a knife.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
If we are satisfied that an offense has been committed
by a person who's armed with a controlled weapon, a
prohibited weapon, or a god forbid of firearm, that scenis
sergeant can make that decision very quickly. So someone's got
on done something that used a bus in to change,
for example, they then got onto a bus, that declaration
can be made yep, and that bus can be stopped
(06:26):
and individuals and that bus could be searched.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
It could happen relatively quickly.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
And so being armed with a weapon is an offense, right, yes,
So if you suspect that they've got a weapon, they'll
be able to be searched.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
That well, if we already know that the weapon. So
the challenge here is if someone's on a bus, we'd
actually know who it is. This gives us the opportunity,
unless we've got good CCTV, the opportunity to randomly scan
people to find out who may be in possession of
a weapon on that particular bus.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yef, No, this is not random.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
We cannot do a search of a bus, for example,
without information leading up to an allowing a declaration to
be in place. Yeah, any declaration in relation to the
ability to use the ones to scan people will be
valid for twelve hours.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I know that there's.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Rehtric around whether what happens if they step outside the
boundaries of the declared area.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
We still have powers.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
If we think someone is suspected of being in possession
of a weapon, we can still search them regardless of.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Whether they're in a declared area or not or not.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Now, now that's obviously talking about you know, if there
is sort of a very real situation that's unfolding in
real time where somebody's you know, maybe jumped on a
bus that they believe to be armed, or at the
bus exchange where they they're believed to be armed.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Talk us through how it's going to work.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
More so in those other high risk areas I believe
that they're called that are not news. So Darwin, Casarina,
Catherine Tenant Creek, those CBD areas, are there situations where
the police can maybe conduct an exercise where you are
making sure that people are not coming into town armed.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Only when we have in motion that justifies the use.
So if we've got a concern that's we've got information
that a group of people are going to have a
confrontation in a particular location, and we know that there's
been weapons use at the location previously, a declaration can
be made and that allows us to then go in
and use those powers.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
What if you have information that suggests there is going
to be a situation where there could be a fight
and there is the potential to be weapons, but you
don't have you don't have evidence that they've been used
previously in that location.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
I suggest that's going to be highly unlikely.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Okay? Is that because we are just seeing a lot of.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
No you capture the last six months? Yeah? Right.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
The reason these declared areas have been identified as they
are as we've gone through and done all these assessments,
and in the last six months there's been lots of
activity that leads us to this point. So we have
not identified declared high risk areas that are not going
to allow us to implement the declaration to do it
wanting activity if need be.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Now, Assistant Commissioner, there are people that have been contacting
us throughout the morning saying, you know, is everybody going
to be searched if they're in that area.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Well, within reason, If there's lots and lots of people there,
we may not be able to search everyone. We will
use what police resources we have to do what we can.
We might be targeted, we might know who we need
to target yep, and in that case.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
We'll do that.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Other times it'll be an engagement opportunity where we'll search
lots of people.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
So from a police perspective, does it feel pretty clear
cut for you guys in terms of those locations and
in terms of their not being confusion around those twelve
hour periods and the time frames.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
It's up to twelve hours, it may not need to
be for twelve hours for us, it's pretty clear.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
The legislation is pretty clear.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
We're going through the process now of making sure that
we've got our internal policy correct. We'll then do all
our training once we've got the one so everyone who
needs to use them knows how to use them, and
those the the parameters within which they need to operate.
There is another component to this that just I need
to be clear so that your listeners understand that you've
(10:08):
got the high risk declared areas which are really specific
those sixteen but then you also have a suspected area
and that is outside of a declared area.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
So we've got.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Information that suggests that something's going to happen. It could
be in an urban, a regional, or a remote setting.
There is the opportunity within the legislation for the Commission
to consider the information and then declare an area as
a suspected area and we're able to use the wanting
powers in those locations.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
And how fast can a decision like that be made?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You know, say that you suspect something like that's going
to happen and you then need to you know, you
need to get that approval or the officers need to
get that approval from a senior sergeant or above. How
fast will that approval process happen?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
So in the Northern Territory and the Joint Emergency Services
Communications Center JESK, as the listeners will know it as
we have a superintendent and a senior sergeant, the watch
commander and the Charity Judy superintendant on twenty four seven
every day of the year. Those individuals work with we
have what's called tactical Intel. It's on twenty four hours
a day and they're able to assess everything going on
(11:14):
across the territory, and those two individuals that senior sergeant
and that superintendent can make these declarations as quickly as
needed so that we.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Can get in and do it needs to do as required.
So pretty well, we're not talking days.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
We don't need judicial approval, and it's not something we'll
overstep because we'll make sure there's good governance in what
we're doing to ensure that the public don't fear that
we're going to be jackbooting around searching everyone.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
That's not the case at all.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Yeah, I've got a question here from Noel in Humpty Doo.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
He said, Hi, kad, I wake up this morning and
become a criminal for carrying a leather man.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I'm sixty one.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I've carried a knife or a tool for most of
it And is this tool will it choose every day
for all sorts.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Of things, and now I'm a criminal? Is that right? Questions?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Not not at.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
All, depending on what he's carrying his leatherman for. If
he's carrying his leatherman to do arm robberies, and then yeah,
he's in the wrong space. But if he's carrying it
because that's just the normal course of his life and
he can justify its possession, then he's not a criminal
at all. So I get the confusion there, but it's not.
It's when we can identify it for an unlawful purpose,
(12:16):
when you're carrying your leatherm and in your sock and
the blades out, well, that looks a bit different to
if you've got it on your belt, as a lot
of pastoralis for example, might do.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Can I just confirm as well?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
It's youth and adults that can be searched in this
way everybody.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Now, Also what happens if someone refuses?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
So if you refuse to be subjected to a search,
that automatically allows us to search you, and that then
is clearly indicated that there might be something that the
level of suspicion has been raised, we can search you.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
It is an offense also.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
Not to and then we'll be able to use other
provisions so that the powers are already pre existing to
be able to make sure we search thoroughly.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Now, obviously this has already happened in Queensland, so we're
basing this off what's happening in Queensland. Are there any
lessons to be learned out of Queensland?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Very much so? We've used, so they went through a
twelve month trial.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
They've earlier this year actually implemented their legialtive framework to
support this. We've utilized their lessons learnt on the way
in which declared areas operate, the way in which the
type of ones they use. So a lot of the
work's been done for us, and we've taken the best
pieces of the work they've done and we've implemented that here.
We know that we're going to have to continue to
(13:31):
look at what we're doing to make sure it's working,
make sure we're not stepping outside what the public expect
us to do. But at the moment, from what we
can see in a way in which we've approached and
a testing we've done to this, it's in a good
place at the moment. And obviously it'll come out within
about six weeks time from now, and we'll roll it
out and use it and we'll report back obviously on
(13:51):
how we're going.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Oh what's going to ask when is it going to start?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
So we've got to go through the procurement process, the training,
make sure our people are ready, make sure the community
are ready as well. We need to do good media
with them to make sure the community particularly, it's going
to be confrontational with some people. It's not intended to
be the case, but unfortunately society has changed. Knives weapons
are being possessed for reasons that are not lawful, YELP,
(14:17):
and that causes us considerable concern. There's been obviously lots
of incidents in the territory where we've had injury and
death as a consequence of edged weapons, and this is
a tool to hopefully prevent a lot of that harm
being caused in the future.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
How big a difference do you think it's going to make.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I hope that it actually makes people think twice. What
we can do is if we identify someone who is
carrying a weapon, there are three things we can do.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
We can seize it, we can destroy it, or we can.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Prosecute that individual. Now there is an educative process to this.
It shouldn't be carrying a knife unless you have a
lawful reason.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Too.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
When we talk to people who we find in possession
of knives, there's a myriad of reasons. It could be
self protection, they've got it to cut their meat, whatever
it could be. So we need to be able to
work our way through that and this whole education process
to prevent people from carrying knives that are not for
lawful reasons is a lot of what this will lead to.
We hope the punitive aspect of having to want people
(15:16):
with this device over time means that less people are
going to be possessing knives in our in public spaces.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, and look, I think that I reckon a lot
of people really do want this to make a difference.
They're hoping that it does make a difference, and I
guess time will tell just how big a difference it makes. Now,
I want to ask you about the raising of the
criminal age. We know that it's officially coming into place
on August one. How have the police had to prepare
for this?
Speaker 4 (15:40):
So we've been working with all of our colleagues from
other government departments from when this announcement was first brought
to our attention. We've spent We've got steering committees, working groups,
We've done a power of work. We're at a point
now where we're training our people they understand what it means.
(16:01):
We've had to work very closely with our territory, Families,
Housing in a Community, and Department of Health because no
longer is someone under the age of twelve going to
be taken to a police station and placed into custody.
They need to go somewhere else, to a safe place.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
What if they don't have somewhere safe to go?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
So the safe places have been identified through territory families,
and we will take that young person to territory families.
So ow, we've got a very defined process. Each location
of the territory has a different process because there's different
capacity and capability with agencies and nolizations. But in essence,
we take a young person into our care, so longer
(16:38):
in custody we usually Care and Protection Children's Act, we
find a responsible adult and we return the responsible adult.
If we cannot do that, we'll be in contact with
territory families who have twenty four to seven presents across
the territory. But let's say an urban setting like Darwen,
We'll let them know we can't find somewhere for this.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Young person to go.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
They will then provide us the ability to take them
to a safe place which territory families have identified, and
we'll be able to take that young person to a
safe place so they can be cared for.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Okay, So it does sound as though there's got to
be a bit of a change of tact from territory
families perspective.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
I guess well, in our Springs, those safe places have
been in place for some time. It'll be a new
process for Dawn, but it's a great step forward because
no longer is someone under the age of twelve. They
won't be put through the judicial system. They'll put through
if they're behaving badly, if they're committing what would have
been a criminal offense. Otherwise there won't be criminal criminally
(17:34):
responsible for that conduct. But they need to be put
through programs similar to what may have looked like diversion.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
It won't be called diversion. It'll be like a therapeutic program, and.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
The working with their families to make sure that everything's
okay at home, determine why they're doing what they're doing,
and try and put measures in place intodict and make
them safer in their environment so they're not out doing
the things that they shouldn't be doing.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Well, that's it, and I think that that's what lots
of people are a bit worried about, because you know,
even ourselves we see through different pressure releases that come
through from time to time from the police. We're you know,
unfortunately in the territory, young people under the age of
twelve are engaging in what many do deem criminal behavior,
but they're now not being considered you know, I guess
for you know, for criminal responsibility of that behavior.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
What's key here is if a crime is committed, so
someone's house is broken into, someone has a car stolen,
or there is a robbery at a ob service stational
supermarket for example, that's still on offense. We'll investigate it
as an offense. We'll still do what we need to do.
Victim management is still really important. That's forefront of what
we do. But if we identify a person under the
(18:43):
age of twelve as being the offenders of between ten
and twelve, then that person, instead of being prosecuted or diverted,
they will be placed before territory families to deliver this
therapeutic program. So there'll still be outcomes, and the idea
is to prevent those young people. Hopefully by the time
turned twelve and if they were going down a particular path,
they've been able to turn the corner and they've gone
(19:05):
down a path where they're in a safer place. They're
in a better place and they're actually no longer behaving
in that way.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Well, let's hope.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
So now I do want to ask you just very
quickly before we wrap up this morning, in terms of
we saw at the Northern Australia Conference that was happening
yesterday there was protesters up on the stage. It's not
the first time that we've sort of seen protesters rock
up somewhere where they're probably not wanted or invited, but
they rock up to protest. Has it become a bit
more of an issue for us here in the Northern Territory.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Look, we knew full well that there might have been
an increase in this type of activity as fracking became
more rule for the territory.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
That particular instance.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
We're aware of it. Security dealt with it. Yes, it's confronting.
At the time, they didn't community criminal offenses. Police weren't
required to respond. We are well aware that it's popping
up all over the place.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
We'll deal that as required.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
If criminal offenses have been committed, it's someone's democratic right
to be a protest in the right way. But when
committal criminal offenses are committed as a consequence and then
that's when we become involved.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Is it deemed like public nuisance?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Depending on that's a that's a subjective test. It probably
could be. I'm sure that was confronting for those who
were exposed to it. We we will do what we
can if we're told, if any advance.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, and if they need that help, I guess of course. Well,
Assistant Commissioner Travis Wurst, we better leave it there. Thank
you as always for your time. Thanks for joining us
this morning.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
No problems,
We know that legislation enabling police powers to stop and
search individuals for knives and other weapons unlawfully possessed in
public places will it pass through Parliament on urgency overnight.
Those changes will authorize the police to use handheld scanners
to detect, sees and destroy weapons being carried by individuals,
also known as wanding. Now joining me in the studio
(00:23):
to talk more about this from that real operational perspective
is the Assistant Commissioner Travis Worth.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Good morning to you, Travis.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Morning, Katie.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
How are you very well?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Now you've actually bought in. I know that our listeners
can't see this, but we'll try and get a photo
because you've actually bought in one of these devices for
us this morning. It's actually really quite small.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
It's compacted, so this is what Codie's talking about as
a wand it's probably no more than twenty five centimeters long.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's hand held, YEP.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
It's designed to fit on to a police officer's accouterm
and belt or something similar. It's really quite intrusive. It
is simply the designed to do an external quick windover
and if there's metal in someone's pocket, obviously including a
knife or something similar, it will indicate and then police
will take the next step if re.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Quiet how many of those are we going to hat?
Speaker 4 (01:14):
So the legislation was passed overnight. Procurement will now commence
and is our intent in the first instance to procure
two hundred so there's sufficient devices to go to all
stations across the territory and focus particularly on the regional
urban settings.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
In the first instance, an assistant commissioner, will it be
something that you know that a police officer can kind
of just have on the.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Belt look if need be, or they maintain it in
their motor vehicles, so it's quite The legislation is really
clear around when police can and cannot use these devices.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So police cannot.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Just walk up to anyone anywhere and start using this
device unless they suspect someone's already carrying a control weapon.
The law already says that we can do certain things.
In that instance, this will just will be able to
use this device for those instances these might be personal issue.
They'll be issued to police stations and for people to
take out on patrol with them. At this stage, we
(02:11):
may get to that point, so tell.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Me, because there's been a lot of sort of questions
I guess over the last twenty four hours about these
different areas that are spoken about, so sixteen different areas
and just sort of having a closer look at those.
So some of those include will Korama Precinct, Parapp Precinct,
Fanny Bay Precinct, Bundilla Beach, Leanna Stuart Park, Marra Malac,
(02:36):
Nightcliffe and the Nightcliff Foreshore Precinct. Now how large are
those precinct areas.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
So just for your clarity for your listeners, declared high
risk areas are not new. They have been around for
quite some time. They exist within the Liquor Act. These
are the ones you've described a new or existing areas
that have been amended. So the Darwin CBD, for example,
(03:03):
has already had a declared area in place. Alice Springs
CBD has a declared area in place. The intent of
that was to manage our correlated harm around licensed premises,
whether they be on premise so nightclubs, pubs or takeaway outlets.
That was the initial intent, and this legislation or these
(03:25):
additional declarations expand some of those areas sign Alice Springs
and includes Anti Hill. Now for example, in Palmerston, the
expansion includes gateway because there's an alcohol outlet in that location,
takeaway and on premise, and then some additional new areas
based on the evidence that we've collected over time. This
is all evidence based and these declarations are based on
(03:47):
where we see issues that are alcorelated. So the legislation
that relates to wanding is utilizing those liquoric highrisk declared areas.
Those locations are very specific the INTI government website. People
can search the website, it will tell them exactly where
they are. They are defined boundaries. The idea of this
(04:09):
wandering legislation is that if something occurs in one of
those locations. So the way the legislation's drafta it says
in the last six months. But I'll give you a
practical example. Yeah, we have someone we've just arrested in
possession of a knife at a location. The authorized officer
that can be a senior sergeant or above, can be
(04:32):
given that information. They will then assess that information against
the number of criteria. So we've got someone in custody
for an offense that's applicable. Those offenses can be someone
armed with a controlled weapon. As I said, a violence
offense has been committed or one or more weapons offenses
has been committed. We then need to assess the location
(04:53):
the impact using the ones will have at that location.
So is it going to actually affect the ability of
people to use that particular area. It might be a
bus interchange, it could be a shopping center, It could
be all sorts of things, depending on where it is,
whether we've used the scanning in that location previously, and
whether it was effective in increasing public safety. That senior
(05:16):
sergeant or above will assess all that information and then
provide advice.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Is there going to be sort of a delay, you know,
if we've got somebody who let's just kind of trying
to talk this through practically in my brain, so I
know our listeners will be feeling the same as well.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So let's say that somebody is at.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
The Casuarina Bus Exchange for want of a location, there
is somebody there who is armed or they believe is
armed or threatening somebody with a knife.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
They call the police.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
The police then head out to the Casuarina Bus Exchange.
Can the police then, like on their way out there,
go all right, well, we need to search those that
we you know, or like everybody in the vicinity of
that area to make sure that there is or is
not somebody with a knife.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
If we are satisfied that an offense has been committed
by a person who's armed with a controlled weapon, a
prohibited weapon, or a god forbid of firearm, that scenis
sergeant can make that decision very quickly. So someone's got
on done something that used a bus in to change,
for example, they then got onto a bus, that declaration
can be made yep, and that bus can be stopped
(06:26):
and individuals and that bus could be searched.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
It could happen relatively quickly.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
And so being armed with a weapon is an offense, right, yes,
So if you suspect that they've got a weapon, they'll
be able to be searched.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
That well, if we already know that the weapon. So
the challenge here is if someone's on a bus, we'd
actually know who it is. This gives us the opportunity,
unless we've got good CCTV, the opportunity to randomly scan
people to find out who may be in possession of
a weapon on that particular bus.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yef, No, this is not random.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
We cannot do a search of a bus, for example,
without information leading up to an allowing a declaration to
be in place. Yeah, any declaration in relation to the
ability to use the ones to scan people will be
valid for twelve hours.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I know that there's.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Rehtric around whether what happens if they step outside the
boundaries of the declared area.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
We still have powers.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
If we think someone is suspected of being in possession
of a weapon, we can still search them regardless of.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Whether they're in a declared area or not or not.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Now, now that's obviously talking about you know, if there
is sort of a very real situation that's unfolding in
real time where somebody's you know, maybe jumped on a
bus that they believe to be armed, or at the
bus exchange where they they're believed to be armed.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Talk us through how it's going to work.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
More so in those other high risk areas I believe
that they're called that are not news. So Darwin, Casarina,
Catherine Tenant Creek, those CBD areas, are there situations where
the police can maybe conduct an exercise where you are
making sure that people are not coming into town armed.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Only when we have in motion that justifies the use.
So if we've got a concern that's we've got information
that a group of people are going to have a
confrontation in a particular location, and we know that there's
been weapons use at the location previously, a declaration can
be made and that allows us to then go in
and use those powers.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
What if you have information that suggests there is going
to be a situation where there could be a fight
and there is the potential to be weapons, but you
don't have you don't have evidence that they've been used
previously in that location.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
I suggest that's going to be highly unlikely.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Okay? Is that because we are just seeing a lot of.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
No you capture the last six months? Yeah? Right.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
The reason these declared areas have been identified as they
are as we've gone through and done all these assessments,
and in the last six months there's been lots of
activity that leads us to this point. So we have
not identified declared high risk areas that are not going
to allow us to implement the declaration to do it
wanting activity if need be.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Now, Assistant Commissioner, there are people that have been contacting
us throughout the morning saying, you know, is everybody going
to be searched if they're in that area.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Well, within reason, If there's lots and lots of people there,
we may not be able to search everyone. We will
use what police resources we have to do what we can.
We might be targeted, we might know who we need
to target yep, and in that case.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
We'll do that.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Other times it'll be an engagement opportunity where we'll search
lots of people.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
So from a police perspective, does it feel pretty clear
cut for you guys in terms of those locations and
in terms of their not being confusion around those twelve
hour periods and the time frames.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
It's up to twelve hours, it may not need to
be for twelve hours for us, it's pretty clear.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
The legislation is pretty clear.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
We're going through the process now of making sure that
we've got our internal policy correct. We'll then do all
our training once we've got the one so everyone who
needs to use them knows how to use them, and
those the the parameters within which they need to operate.
There is another component to this that just I need
to be clear so that your listeners understand that you've
(10:08):
got the high risk declared areas which are really specific
those sixteen but then you also have a suspected area
and that is outside of a declared area.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
So we've got.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Information that suggests that something's going to happen. It could
be in an urban, a regional, or a remote setting.
There is the opportunity within the legislation for the Commission
to consider the information and then declare an area as
a suspected area and we're able to use the wanting
powers in those locations.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
And how fast can a decision like that be made?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
You know, say that you suspect something like that's going
to happen and you then need to you know, you
need to get that approval or the officers need to
get that approval from a senior sergeant or above. How
fast will that approval process happen?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
So in the Northern Territory and the Joint Emergency Services
Communications Center JESK, as the listeners will know it as
we have a superintendent and a senior sergeant, the watch
commander and the Charity Judy superintendant on twenty four seven
every day of the year. Those individuals work with we
have what's called tactical Intel. It's on twenty four hours
a day and they're able to assess everything going on
(11:14):
across the territory, and those two individuals that senior sergeant
and that superintendent can make these declarations as quickly as
needed so that we.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Can get in and do it needs to do as required.
So pretty well, we're not talking days.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
We don't need judicial approval, and it's not something we'll
overstep because we'll make sure there's good governance in what
we're doing to ensure that the public don't fear that
we're going to be jackbooting around searching everyone.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
That's not the case at all.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Yeah, I've got a question here from Noel in Humpty Doo.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
He said, Hi, kad, I wake up this morning and
become a criminal for carrying a leather man.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I'm sixty one.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I've carried a knife or a tool for most of
it And is this tool will it choose every day
for all sorts.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Of things, and now I'm a criminal? Is that right? Questions?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Not not at.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
All, depending on what he's carrying his leatherman for. If
he's carrying his leatherman to do arm robberies, and then yeah,
he's in the wrong space. But if he's carrying it
because that's just the normal course of his life and
he can justify its possession, then he's not a criminal
at all. So I get the confusion there, but it's not.
It's when we can identify it for an unlawful purpose,
(12:16):
when you're carrying your leatherm and in your sock and
the blades out, well, that looks a bit different to
if you've got it on your belt, as a lot
of pastoralis for example, might do.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Can I just confirm as well?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
It's youth and adults that can be searched in this
way everybody.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Now, Also what happens if someone refuses?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
So if you refuse to be subjected to a search,
that automatically allows us to search you, and that then
is clearly indicated that there might be something that the
level of suspicion has been raised, we can search you.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
It is an offense also.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
Not to and then we'll be able to use other
provisions so that the powers are already pre existing to
be able to make sure we search thoroughly.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Now, obviously this has already happened in Queensland, so we're
basing this off what's happening in Queensland. Are there any
lessons to be learned out of Queensland?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Very much so? We've used, so they went through a
twelve month trial.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
They've earlier this year actually implemented their legialtive framework to
support this. We've utilized their lessons learnt on the way
in which declared areas operate, the way in which the
type of ones they use. So a lot of the
work's been done for us, and we've taken the best
pieces of the work they've done and we've implemented that here.
We know that we're going to have to continue to
(13:31):
look at what we're doing to make sure it's working,
make sure we're not stepping outside what the public expect
us to do. But at the moment, from what we
can see in a way in which we've approached and
a testing we've done to this, it's in a good
place at the moment. And obviously it'll come out within
about six weeks time from now, and we'll roll it
out and use it and we'll report back obviously on
(13:51):
how we're going.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Oh what's going to ask when is it going to start?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
So we've got to go through the procurement process, the training,
make sure our people are ready, make sure the community
are ready as well. We need to do good media
with them to make sure the community particularly, it's going
to be confrontational with some people. It's not intended to
be the case, but unfortunately society has changed. Knives weapons
are being possessed for reasons that are not lawful, YELP,
(14:17):
and that causes us considerable concern. There's been obviously lots
of incidents in the territory where we've had injury and
death as a consequence of edged weapons, and this is
a tool to hopefully prevent a lot of that harm
being caused in the future.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
How big a difference do you think it's going to make.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I hope that it actually makes people think twice. What
we can do is if we identify someone who is
carrying a weapon, there are three things we can do.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
We can seize it, we can destroy it, or we can.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Prosecute that individual. Now there is an educative process to this.
It shouldn't be carrying a knife unless you have a
lawful reason.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Too.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
When we talk to people who we find in possession
of knives, there's a myriad of reasons. It could be
self protection, they've got it to cut their meat, whatever
it could be. So we need to be able to
work our way through that and this whole education process
to prevent people from carrying knives that are not for
lawful reasons is a lot of what this will lead to.
We hope the punitive aspect of having to want people
(15:16):
with this device over time means that less people are
going to be possessing knives in our in public spaces.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, and look, I think that I reckon a lot
of people really do want this to make a difference.
They're hoping that it does make a difference, and I
guess time will tell just how big a difference it makes. Now,
I want to ask you about the raising of the
criminal age. We know that it's officially coming into place
on August one. How have the police had to prepare
for this?
Speaker 4 (15:40):
So we've been working with all of our colleagues from
other government departments from when this announcement was first brought
to our attention. We've spent We've got steering committees, working groups,
We've done a power of work. We're at a point
now where we're training our people they understand what it means.
(16:01):
We've had to work very closely with our territory, Families,
Housing in a Community, and Department of Health because no
longer is someone under the age of twelve going to
be taken to a police station and placed into custody.
They need to go somewhere else, to a safe place.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
What if they don't have somewhere safe to go?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
So the safe places have been identified through territory families,
and we will take that young person to territory families.
So ow, we've got a very defined process. Each location
of the territory has a different process because there's different
capacity and capability with agencies and nolizations. But in essence,
we take a young person into our care, so longer
(16:38):
in custody we usually Care and Protection Children's Act, we
find a responsible adult and we return the responsible adult.
If we cannot do that, we'll be in contact with
territory families who have twenty four to seven presents across
the territory. But let's say an urban setting like Darwen,
We'll let them know we can't find somewhere for this.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Young person to go.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
They will then provide us the ability to take them
to a safe place which territory families have identified, and
we'll be able to take that young person to a
safe place so they can be cared for.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Okay, So it does sound as though there's got to
be a bit of a change of tact from territory
families perspective.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
I guess well, in our Springs, those safe places have
been in place for some time. It'll be a new
process for Dawn, but it's a great step forward because
no longer is someone under the age of twelve. They
won't be put through the judicial system. They'll put through
if they're behaving badly, if they're committing what would have
been a criminal offense. Otherwise there won't be criminal criminally
(17:34):
responsible for that conduct. But they need to be put
through programs similar to what may have looked like diversion.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
It won't be called diversion. It'll be like a therapeutic program, and.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
The working with their families to make sure that everything's
okay at home, determine why they're doing what they're doing,
and try and put measures in place intodict and make
them safer in their environment so they're not out doing
the things that they shouldn't be doing.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Well, that's it, and I think that that's what lots
of people are a bit worried about, because you know,
even ourselves we see through different pressure releases that come
through from time to time from the police. We're you know,
unfortunately in the territory, young people under the age of
twelve are engaging in what many do deem criminal behavior,
but they're now not being considered you know, I guess
for you know, for criminal responsibility of that behavior.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
What's key here is if a crime is committed, so
someone's house is broken into, someone has a car stolen,
or there is a robbery at a ob service stational
supermarket for example, that's still on offense. We'll investigate it
as an offense. We'll still do what we need to do.
Victim management is still really important. That's forefront of what
we do. But if we identify a person under the
(18:43):
age of twelve as being the offenders of between ten
and twelve, then that person, instead of being prosecuted or diverted,
they will be placed before territory families to deliver this
therapeutic program. So there'll still be outcomes, and the idea
is to prevent those young people. Hopefully by the time
turned twelve and if they were going down a particular path,
they've been able to turn the corner and they've gone
(19:05):
down a path where they're in a safer place. They're
in a better place and they're actually no longer behaving
in that way.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Well, let's hope.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
So now I do want to ask you just very
quickly before we wrap up this morning, in terms of
we saw at the Northern Australia Conference that was happening
yesterday there was protesters up on the stage. It's not
the first time that we've sort of seen protesters rock
up somewhere where they're probably not wanted or invited, but
they rock up to protest. Has it become a bit
more of an issue for us here in the Northern Territory.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Look, we knew full well that there might have been
an increase in this type of activity as fracking became
more rule for the territory.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
That particular instance.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
We're aware of it. Security dealt with it. Yes, it's confronting.
At the time, they didn't community criminal offenses. Police weren't
required to respond. We are well aware that it's popping
up all over the place.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
We'll deal that as required.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
If criminal offenses have been committed, it's someone's democratic right
to be a protest in the right way. But when
committal criminal offenses are committed as a consequence and then
that's when we become involved.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Is it deemed like public nuisance?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Depending on that's a that's a subjective test. It probably
could be. I'm sure that was confronting for those who
were exposed to it. We we will do what we
can if we're told, if any advance.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, and if they need that help, I guess of course. Well,
Assistant Commissioner Travis Wurst, we better leave it there. Thank
you as always for your time. Thanks for joining us
this morning.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
No problems,
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