July 26, 2023 • 12 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Northern Territory government is moving to strengthen and modernize sexual
offenses legislation. The reforms would see the offense of sexual
relationship with a child replaced with repeated sexual abuse, the
introduction of new offenses including grooming a child to procure
them to engage in sexual activity, as well as public masturbation. Now,
(00:21):
the amendments to be debated today will bring the Northern
Territory in line with other states and territories and acts
on recommendations of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to
Child sexual Abuse. The government have well, they have sexual
assault Advocate Grace Tame here in Darwin as well to
help push those changes. Now, joining me on the line
(00:43):
to explain this further is the Attorney General, Chancey Paid.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Good morning to you, Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Thanks so much for your time this morning. Now, Attorney General,
can you talk us through the proposed changes and why
they're needed.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yes, certainly so Today before Parliament will have this Sexual
Offense's legislation amendments. They're up for debate and this is
about strengthening and modernizing our sexual offenses legislation here in
the territory. We've taken quite a comprehensive approach. The legislation
is a victim centered including the work of victim survivor advocates.
(01:19):
So there's a number of changes, Katie, and certainly one
of those is a really important change, and that's removing
the current offense of sexual relationship with a child and
replacing that with repeated sexual abuse, because that is what
it needs to be. It's not a relationship and it's
not consensual. So look, they are changes that are coming through.
(01:43):
We've also, as you've outlined, we've made it a criminal
offense for stealthy and we've brought in a new offense
for grooming of a child. And they're really important changes
that will strengthen the response and the outcomes for victims.
And Katie, another one we've added is really important as well,
(02:06):
and that's to stop child sex offenders from relying of
evidence of good character during sentencing.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Now, tell me with the changing of the offensive sexual
relationship with a child to repeated sexual abuse. In some ways,
I guess without using that word child, it sounds as
though it's being warded down. But that isn't the case,
is it.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
No, No, it's actually being strengthened to better respond and
that's in line with the Royal Commission's recommendations. This is
something that victim survivors such as Grace Tame have been
calling for for some time and this is about making
sure that it removes the language or the word around
relationship because it's not a relationship. It's an abuse of
(02:53):
power by an adult and we need to call it
out for what it is, and that is repeated sexual
abuse generallationship.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody who
disagrees with that. Now, what changes are proposed when it
comes to protecting young people from exploitation by a personal
authority or a care.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Absolutely, we are bringing in the new offense of grooming
that hasn't been featured in legislation before. It's being featured
in the legislation that's before Parliament today to stamp that
out and say that that form of abuse is certainly
not tolerated and not accepted here in the Northern Territory.
So we will absolutely be working with that. There's a whole
(03:37):
range of work that needs to be done, but these
offenses protect young people from exploitation by persons in positions
of authority and persons with a cognitive impairment from exploitation
by their care is.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Now tell me making public masturbation and offense is said
to help identify repeat offenders, But it's not going to
be retrospective, is it. So it's only going to be
offenses committed after the new law takes effect will help
identify those repeat offenders.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, So that particular offense of public masturbation is to
make it easier to identify repeat offenders from their criminal history,
so that we can absolutely stand that out because that
is certainly not acceptable well.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And it is something that unfortunately we seem to have
seen here in the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Absolutely, so these changes today before Parliament are absolutely what's needed.
They strengthen the law, they strengthen the responses, and they
protect territorians, particularly our children. Now.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Attorney General advocates have been calling for changes to include
the ability to name accused rapists or people who've committed
sexual offenses. Why haven't you included that change?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So certainly the changes that are going through today are
a suite of measures that are being introduced. When we
look at the area the sexual offenses is a fastly
evolving landscape and these are things that we are certainly considering.
We're taking that considered approach in that particular area, Katie,
because the territory is such a small jurisdiction. We have
(05:20):
worked with some stakeholders who've raised concerns that naming an
accused not a sentenced, could have unintended consequences of the
victim being either a child or an adult who doesn't
want to be named, being exposed in a small town
or community. But we are working in that space, and
we hope to have some changes in contemporization soon in
(05:43):
that space. But we're just obviously taking a considered approach
making sure that there's all areas and there's not unintended
consequences or exposure of people who are victims who don't
want to be named.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So it doesn't sound as though it's a done deal.
There could still be some changes this.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, Look, Katie, I never rule out changes when it
comes to contemporizing or modernizing legislation if it's in the
best interests of the territory. So certainly we're working through
this with stakeholders to get a sense of where we
need to do and what we need to do. The
territory is pretty unique given we've got such a small
population of two hundred and fifty thousand. We just want
(06:22):
to make sure that we're not putting victims further in
harm's way when it comes to that. But I've certainly
not ruled it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Out well, especially though, I mean, I know that you're
saying you don't want to make it a bad change
for victims, but you've got advocates here that have been
calling for that change.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yes, certainly, we've got advocates who have been calling for
that change. And we've also got people who don't want
to be named, who have also we've met with and
they've just cautioned around what this could mean. So we
are taking that approach. We will have some stuff coming
out soon just to continue those conversations, and Katie, we've
also referred the area of affirmative consent to the Northern
(07:02):
Territory Law Reform Committee and they'll have a report back
to us in October around any additional changes that we
need to make in that space as well.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Okay, so definitely sounds as though there is still some
work underway. Attorney General, I do want to ask you
about this petition that has obviously been launched since the
passing of Decklan Lavity. Twenty three thousand people, well more
than twenty three thousand people have now signed that petition
calling for greater change when it comes to crime in
(07:31):
the Northern Territory. Is the Labor government going to allow
this petition to be debated?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Katie? That is before the Public Accounts Committee. I won't
speak for the members of the Public Accounts Committee. That's
a decision that they will meet and they work through
and resolve, and that's made up of a number of
members from all political affiliations. So I believe that they're
meeting at lunchtime today, Kay, So there should be some
movement or an announcement shortly after that I would have
(07:59):
made Well.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
They are, they are meeting at lunchtime today. I guess
the concern here is for some Territorians is that it
is three Labor members on that committee, so it is
a majority Labor committee. Can you guarantee that you are
actually going to allow this to happen and you're going
to allow or that they're going to allow Territorians' voices
to be heard.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, Look, Katie, I'm not going to make a decision
for the Public Accounts Committee that do you think they
should members.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Do you think they.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Should amount for the public. That'll be a matter for
them to discuss and reach a resolution on.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I guess what I'm getting to is it's now really
hard to ignore the fact that you've got twenty three
thousand people that have signed this petition. So to me
it seems like a no brainer. It should be something
that you allow those voices to be heard and it
should actually be debated.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, look, Katie, I think I just it's important to
acknowledge it shouldn't matter the number of people on a party,
because you know that would discredit people living in small,
remote communities and regional towns who don't have the sheer population.
Every petition is important and has value, and that's why
we have the mechanism where it goes to those committees
(09:15):
to make a decision, and that's what will happen today
at lunchtime.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Do you think it should look.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I think that's a matter for the public account for.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
You as a member of the Parliament, do you think
it should be allowed to happen?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I think that all petitions are important and have a
rightful place coming to the Northern Territory Parliament and whatever
acts but how come.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
You won't answer that, how come you won't just say
yes or no, because it's pretty clear cut and it
is something that a lot of people are concerned about,
and a lot of people are really worried that the
government's not taking this issue of crime as seriously as
you should be.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Well, Katie, I dispute that fact. Everything that we do
is around providing mechanisms for a safe and smarter territory,
and we've introduced a range of measures to combat crime
and anti social behavior and we've made a number of
changes since March and we'll continue to do that work.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Well, and here you've got more than twenty three thousand
people saying that they don't think that it's enough, and
you're not even prepared to answer whether you think that
it should be able to go to Parliament to be debated.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, I think, Katie, the petition's already been tabled in
Parliament and there's a question now, and it's a procedural
question for the Public Accounts Committee whether that comes back
in for a debate, and that's what will be decided
by the Public Accounts Committee today.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Have you sat down with Declan Lavity's mum and heard
her concerns.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
No, I believe that the Chief Minister has had and
the Chief Miness's Office have had conversations and have reached out,
and certainly that's an ongoing area of working communication.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Would you sit down with her, Look, if.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
She wanted to meet with me, certainly would happy to
be facilitate that.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I just think it's really important that you know that
the government does realize and acknowledge how big an impact
this is having on the community right now, and how
people clearly want their voices to be heard. I mean,
I know that you say every petition counts, and I
don't disagree with you. I actually think that that is right,
and there are petitions that have been much smaller that,
in my opinion, you know, should be debated as well.
(11:30):
But when you're talking about that sheer volume, it's actually
around twenty three five hundred people that have now signed
that petition. So I just feel as though there's a
really you know, there's a really important balance here between
the government obviously taking the advice of experts, as you've
done throughout that review that happened earlier in the week
(11:51):
and with the police and others, but also balancing that
with the views of Territorians everyday, people that are really
worried about what's going on.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Sure, and I absolutely acknowledge that, Katie, And as I said,
we made a number of changes since March and will
continue to do that. And again I just point to
that's a decision that I'll be made by the Public
Accounts Committee today and we'll await that outcome and we'll
respond accordingly with whatever outcome has been made.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
All right, Well, I hope that common sense does prevail
and that it does go ahead because I think that
it is what Territorians expect. Attorney General Chancey Paike will
leave it there for this morning. I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
No worries, mate, cheers, thank you,
Northern Territory government is moving to strengthen and modernize sexual
offenses legislation. The reforms would see the offense of sexual
relationship with a child replaced with repeated sexual abuse, the
introduction of new offenses including grooming a child to procure
them to engage in sexual activity, as well as public masturbation. Now,
(00:21):
the amendments to be debated today will bring the Northern
Territory in line with other states and territories and acts
on recommendations of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to
Child sexual Abuse. The government have well, they have sexual
assault Advocate Grace Tame here in Darwin as well to
help push those changes. Now, joining me on the line
(00:43):
to explain this further is the Attorney General, Chancey Paid.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Good morning to you, Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Thanks so much for your time this morning. Now, Attorney General,
can you talk us through the proposed changes and why
they're needed.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Yes, certainly so Today before Parliament will have this Sexual
Offense's legislation amendments. They're up for debate and this is
about strengthening and modernizing our sexual offenses legislation here in
the territory. We've taken quite a comprehensive approach. The legislation
is a victim centered including the work of victim survivor advocates.
(01:19):
So there's a number of changes, Katie, and certainly one
of those is a really important change, and that's removing
the current offense of sexual relationship with a child and
replacing that with repeated sexual abuse, because that is what
it needs to be. It's not a relationship and it's
not consensual. So look, they are changes that are coming through.
(01:43):
We've also, as you've outlined, we've made it a criminal
offense for stealthy and we've brought in a new offense
for grooming of a child. And they're really important changes
that will strengthen the response and the outcomes for victims.
And Katie, another one we've added is really important as well,
(02:06):
and that's to stop child sex offenders from relying of
evidence of good character during sentencing.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Now, tell me with the changing of the offensive sexual
relationship with a child to repeated sexual abuse. In some ways,
I guess without using that word child, it sounds as
though it's being warded down. But that isn't the case,
is it.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
No, No, it's actually being strengthened to better respond and
that's in line with the Royal Commission's recommendations. This is
something that victim survivors such as Grace Tame have been
calling for for some time and this is about making
sure that it removes the language or the word around
relationship because it's not a relationship. It's an abuse of
(02:53):
power by an adult and we need to call it
out for what it is, and that is repeated sexual
abuse generallationship.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody who
disagrees with that. Now, what changes are proposed when it
comes to protecting young people from exploitation by a personal
authority or a care.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Absolutely, we are bringing in the new offense of grooming
that hasn't been featured in legislation before. It's being featured
in the legislation that's before Parliament today to stamp that
out and say that that form of abuse is certainly
not tolerated and not accepted here in the Northern Territory.
So we will absolutely be working with that. There's a whole
(03:37):
range of work that needs to be done, but these
offenses protect young people from exploitation by persons in positions
of authority and persons with a cognitive impairment from exploitation
by their care is.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Now tell me making public masturbation and offense is said
to help identify repeat offenders, But it's not going to
be retrospective, is it. So it's only going to be
offenses committed after the new law takes effect will help
identify those repeat offenders.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, So that particular offense of public masturbation is to
make it easier to identify repeat offenders from their criminal history,
so that we can absolutely stand that out because that
is certainly not acceptable well.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And it is something that unfortunately we seem to have
seen here in the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Absolutely, so these changes today before Parliament are absolutely what's needed.
They strengthen the law, they strengthen the responses, and they
protect territorians, particularly our children. Now.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Attorney General advocates have been calling for changes to include
the ability to name accused rapists or people who've committed
sexual offenses. Why haven't you included that change?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So certainly the changes that are going through today are
a suite of measures that are being introduced. When we
look at the area the sexual offenses is a fastly
evolving landscape and these are things that we are certainly considering.
We're taking that considered approach in that particular area, Katie,
because the territory is such a small jurisdiction. We have
(05:20):
worked with some stakeholders who've raised concerns that naming an
accused not a sentenced, could have unintended consequences of the
victim being either a child or an adult who doesn't
want to be named, being exposed in a small town
or community. But we are working in that space, and
we hope to have some changes in contemporization soon in
(05:43):
that space. But we're just obviously taking a considered approach
making sure that there's all areas and there's not unintended
consequences or exposure of people who are victims who don't
want to be named.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So it doesn't sound as though it's a done deal.
There could still be some changes this.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, Look, Katie, I never rule out changes when it
comes to contemporizing or modernizing legislation if it's in the
best interests of the territory. So certainly we're working through
this with stakeholders to get a sense of where we
need to do and what we need to do. The
territory is pretty unique given we've got such a small
population of two hundred and fifty thousand. We just want
(06:22):
to make sure that we're not putting victims further in
harm's way when it comes to that. But I've certainly
not ruled it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Out well, especially though, I mean, I know that you're
saying you don't want to make it a bad change
for victims, but you've got advocates here that have been
calling for that change.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yes, certainly, we've got advocates who have been calling for
that change. And we've also got people who don't want
to be named, who have also we've met with and
they've just cautioned around what this could mean. So we
are taking that approach. We will have some stuff coming
out soon just to continue those conversations, and Katie, we've
also referred the area of affirmative consent to the Northern
(07:02):
Territory Law Reform Committee and they'll have a report back
to us in October around any additional changes that we
need to make in that space as well.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Okay, so definitely sounds as though there is still some
work underway. Attorney General, I do want to ask you
about this petition that has obviously been launched since the
passing of Decklan Lavity. Twenty three thousand people, well more
than twenty three thousand people have now signed that petition
calling for greater change when it comes to crime in
(07:31):
the Northern Territory. Is the Labor government going to allow
this petition to be debated?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Katie? That is before the Public Accounts Committee. I won't
speak for the members of the Public Accounts Committee. That's
a decision that they will meet and they work through
and resolve, and that's made up of a number of
members from all political affiliations. So I believe that they're
meeting at lunchtime today, Kay, So there should be some
movement or an announcement shortly after that I would have
(07:59):
made Well.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
They are, they are meeting at lunchtime today. I guess
the concern here is for some Territorians is that it
is three Labor members on that committee, so it is
a majority Labor committee. Can you guarantee that you are
actually going to allow this to happen and you're going
to allow or that they're going to allow Territorians' voices
to be heard.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, Look, Katie, I'm not going to make a decision
for the Public Accounts Committee that do you think they
should members.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Do you think they.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Should amount for the public. That'll be a matter for
them to discuss and reach a resolution on.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I guess what I'm getting to is it's now really
hard to ignore the fact that you've got twenty three
thousand people that have signed this petition. So to me
it seems like a no brainer. It should be something
that you allow those voices to be heard and it
should actually be debated.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, look, Katie, I think I just it's important to
acknowledge it shouldn't matter the number of people on a party,
because you know that would discredit people living in small,
remote communities and regional towns who don't have the sheer population.
Every petition is important and has value, and that's why
we have the mechanism where it goes to those committees
(09:15):
to make a decision, and that's what will happen today
at lunchtime.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Do you think it should look.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I think that's a matter for the public account for.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
You as a member of the Parliament, do you think
it should be allowed to happen?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I think that all petitions are important and have a
rightful place coming to the Northern Territory Parliament and whatever
acts but how come.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
You won't answer that, how come you won't just say
yes or no, because it's pretty clear cut and it
is something that a lot of people are concerned about,
and a lot of people are really worried that the
government's not taking this issue of crime as seriously as
you should be.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Well, Katie, I dispute that fact. Everything that we do
is around providing mechanisms for a safe and smarter territory,
and we've introduced a range of measures to combat crime
and anti social behavior and we've made a number of
changes since March and we'll continue to do that work.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Well, and here you've got more than twenty three thousand
people saying that they don't think that it's enough, and
you're not even prepared to answer whether you think that
it should be able to go to Parliament to be debated.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, I think, Katie, the petition's already been tabled in
Parliament and there's a question now, and it's a procedural
question for the Public Accounts Committee whether that comes back
in for a debate, and that's what will be decided
by the Public Accounts Committee today.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Have you sat down with Declan Lavity's mum and heard
her concerns.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
No, I believe that the Chief Minister has had and
the Chief Miness's Office have had conversations and have reached out,
and certainly that's an ongoing area of working communication.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Would you sit down with her, Look, if.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
She wanted to meet with me, certainly would happy to
be facilitate that.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I just think it's really important that you know that
the government does realize and acknowledge how big an impact
this is having on the community right now, and how
people clearly want their voices to be heard. I mean,
I know that you say every petition counts, and I
don't disagree with you. I actually think that that is right,
and there are petitions that have been much smaller that,
in my opinion, you know, should be debated as well.
(11:30):
But when you're talking about that sheer volume, it's actually
around twenty three five hundred people that have now signed
that petition. So I just feel as though there's a
really you know, there's a really important balance here between
the government obviously taking the advice of experts, as you've
done throughout that review that happened earlier in the week
(11:51):
and with the police and others, but also balancing that
with the views of Territorians everyday, people that are really
worried about what's going on.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Sure, and I absolutely acknowledge that, Katie, And as I said,
we made a number of changes since March and will
continue to do that. And again I just point to
that's a decision that I'll be made by the Public
Accounts Committee today and we'll await that outcome and we'll
respond accordingly with whatever outcome has been made.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
All right, Well, I hope that common sense does prevail
and that it does go ahead because I think that
it is what Territorians expect. Attorney General Chancey Paike will
leave it there for this morning. I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
No worries, mate, cheers, thank you,
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