Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, coming your way in just a moment's time, we
are going to be speaking to Robin Lamley, the Independent
Member Farara lun Because this discussion about the Public Accounts
Committee and whether this petition is going to be allowed
or approved for debate in the Parliament, well it's going
to be decided today. That fate is going to be
(00:20):
decided today at midday. So essentially the way in which
this works, from my understanding, is that the MPTY Opposition
obviously tabled that petition in Parliament yesterday calling for Decklan's
Law in honor of the twenty year old who lost
his life tragically after being allegedly murdered with a weapon
whilst working, as we know, at a darw And bottle
(00:40):
shop in March this year. Now more than twenty three
thousand people have since called on the Northern Territory government
for some stronger changes and action when it comes to crime.
The petition's been referred to the Public Accounts Committee of
the Northern Territories Legislative Assembly, which is indeed responsible for
scrutinizing the government, for a decision as to whether or
(01:02):
not the matters raised in that petition should be referred
back to Parliament for debate.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Robin Lamley sits on that committee. She is indeed the
independent member for Ara Luhn and joins me on the
line right now.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Good morning, Robin, Good morning Katie, the independent member and
the thorn in their side.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
That's all right.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I think there's nothing wrong with being known as that,
particularly on something that people are so incredibly passionate about. Robin,
before I ask about the Public Accounts Committee from your
recollection in your time in Parliament, can you recall another
petition garnering such a high volume of people signing it.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
No, I don't, Katie. This is to my mind unprecedented,
and that's why I've gone public on the process. The
fact that it is up to this Public Accounts Committee
of the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly, which is controlled and
operated by the government, to allow this petition to go
(02:08):
back to Parliament to be debated. It's so important, Katie.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So Robin, what is the process today?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Well, we meet today and one of the items on
the agenda that's always there is consideration of petitions. There
are no guidelines, there's no criteria for making for this
committee on how they make decisions around whether or not
petitions then forward back to the Parliament. I did make
(02:38):
a mistake earlier. I said that I told you that
twenty three all of the twenty three petitions that have
been referred to the Public Accounts Committee since the start
of this parliament back in August twenty twenty, none of
them have gone back to Parliament. There was one that
went back to Partment.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
What was that? What was it Jeremmber.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It was one on education boundary and that took a
hell of a plot of debate over a long period
of time to eventually get it back into Parliament for
a debate. So the chances the odds of any petition
being referred to the PAC and the PAC the Public
(03:19):
Accounts Committee then allowing it to go back to Parliament
for debate is minimal, very very low.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So today at lunchtime, so midday today, this Public Accounts
Committee is going to meet and determine whether this will
go back to the Parliament for debate.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Now, talk our listeners through.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I've mentioned it earlier this morning, but talk us through
who makes up that committee.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
So the chair of the committee is Joel Bowden and
the other two Labor members Manuel Brown, who's the new
member for Arafura, and the other member is Brent Potter,
and Brent Potter of course is the deputy chair. So
(04:05):
you've got three labor members and two non government members
myself and Bill. Yeah. So this is such an important committee,
parliamentary committee, Katie. It's meant to do really important work
on scrutinizing the government. But when you've got three out
of the five members being government members, that just doesn't happen.
(04:30):
So I've called on the committee now to make sure
that this particular petition does go back to the Parliament.
It shouldn't be a particularly long or arduous debate within
the committee, but who knows. Given that twenty two out
of the last twenty three petitions are being blocked haven't
(04:53):
gone back to the Parliament for debate, My expectations are
very low.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Well, I think that everybody on that committee, it doesn't
matter where your political stripes are, they need to actually
listen to the community. At this point in time, the
community is screaming out for change, and the community is
screaming out for the government to listen to them. If
those three members block this from happening, they ought to
be ashamed of themselves.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Absolutely Katie. I think they should be ashamed of themselves
for blocking twenty two out of the last twenty three petitions.
But if they block this one, the biggest petition in
living memory that's ever gone through the Northern Territory Parliament
or Legislative Assembly, then what does that say about the
state of the internal state of the Labor government. If
(05:41):
they can't let a debate, a fulsome debate on this
particular important issue proceed within the Parliament, it really says
to me that this government is in really a very
bad state.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Robin, are you paid extra money to be on this committee?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yes, we all are so, Joel Bowden. I get paid
an extra sixteen thousand dollars a year to sit on
the Public Accounts Committee, and Joel Bowden, being the chair,
gets paid double that. He gets paid an extra thirty
two thousand dollars per year. The output of this committee
has been appallingly low. I've been on lots of parliamentary
(06:26):
committees in my time and I have never sat on
a parliamentary committee that's paid like this. You're not paid
to sit on all of them, but because of the
importance of this particular committee you get paid. I've never
sat on one that has has had such a low output,
and I'm on the public record as saying that I've
said it before at every opportunity. Under the leadership of
(06:50):
Joel Bowden, it's been staggeringly slow and really we haven't
earned our money at all.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Do you think that more comes down to the inner
working of the Labor Party and of the government.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yes, I do. I think these three Labor members are
very clearly being instructed by Level five, by the minister ministers. Probably.
I've seen it in action. I've observed interactions between staff
from Level five during public hearings. I've seen them refer
(07:24):
to notes, the three of them, to notes that haven't
been available to myself and the other member, Billy and
the Coop member. This particular parliamentary committee is an instrument
of the Labor Government and when you have.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be those shouldn't.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I think government. No. No, it's fundamentally wrong and it's
inconsistent with the democratic processes that are supposed to exist
within the Westminster parliamentary system. This is not how parliamentary
committees operate throughout the world. Within the Westminster Parliamentary system.
(08:03):
Within the Commonwealth, how we operate our committees in the
Northern Territory is an anomaly. It is wrong. It is
not right that government has the first and final say
over the recommendations and the work that's undertaken by any
parliamentary committee. So my expectations of today are very low.
(08:25):
But I'm going into this meeting to fight for all
those twenty three thousand people that have signed the signet
this petition, and particularly for Decklan Lavity and his family
and friends. If this petition is not referred back to Parliament,
then I absolutely despair. There's big fundamental problems with how
(08:52):
our parliament is operating if this doesn't get back to
Parliament for proper debate.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Well with democracy, you know, there's fundamental problem because you
think you've got twenty three thousand people that have signed
a petition.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
How can you ignore that.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Well, they've managed to ignore twenty two out of the
last twenty three petitions. You know, it's really not a
big deal to refer petitions back to Parliament for what
is a fairly minimal debate. It's not a debate like
other bills and motions put forward. It's truncated, it's cut short,
(09:31):
but it's significant. It's significant to be allowed to debate
petitions that people Territorians are putting together and members of
Parliament are tabling in Parliament. To just ignore them is
it's brutal. It's so un democratic and fundamentally wrong.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Robin.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Someone's just asked on the tech sign, Katie, is the
Public Accounts Committee meeting going to be made public?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
They're not public, are they?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
And that's their lies the problem. And that's why I've
issued the press release on what's going to be happening
today because I will probably not be able to speak
about what goes on in this meeting today. They're very
their confidential meetings and if I was to speak out
(10:21):
of turn on anything that happens in any of the
meetings of the Public Account's Committee, I could find myself
in trouble. I'm not sure what that trouble is, and
to be honest, I don't particularly.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And do you say, I mean, could that happen to
you even now because you've spoken out.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
No, because I'm not talking about any deliberations or decisions
that have been made. I'm talking about a decision that
will be made. So I'm on safe ground here. The
only person probably who can give you the answer of
the outcome of the meeting today will be the chair
of that committee, Joel Bowden, And I suggest the media
(10:59):
ring here, it's half past one this afternoon and find
out just what the three labor members of the Public
Accounts Committee decided.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
So we will find out.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Will we will be able to find out, won't whether
they voted against this happening.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Not necessarily, No, they could. They could decide that this
remains confidential. They could instead of referring it back to
Parliament to be debated, they could ask the minister for
more details or information, which is what they commonly do.
It's a bit of a stalling tactic. It's about gathering
information and ultimately saying no you are Joe, No I'm not.
(11:39):
That's that's what happens.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Appalling, Katie, Yeah, it's appalling and unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
The relason why I stay on this committee is because
the committee needs eyes and ears like mine to see
what's going on and try and report it back to
the public, so the public then becomes aware of how dysfunctional.
Well that's how undemocratic I think.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
The thing is.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's pretty clear cut in the sense that you've come
out and said that you're going to vote in favor
for this petition being debated in parliament. The oppositions presented
it in parliament, so you know, common sense would tell
you that they're certainly going to be voting the same
way as you.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I would suspect given the faith that Fel presented.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
He said that, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So then really, you know, the only way that this
is not going to happen is if the other three
don't vote for it to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
But Robin if sorry, Matie.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I'm hoping that with your pressure, with the media coverage
that you're giving this issue this morning, and I thank
you for doing it, that Labor will be forced to
making sure that this goes back to Parliament for a
proper debate. And I think autely favorable for that reason,
and I thank you Katie for doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
And look, I really hope so.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
And do you know the disappointing thing for me is
in the past, under other governments that would have been
the case. But we've seen time and time again from
this government that even when you've got voices like Samaralavity
and others coming out and saying this is not good enough.
We want there to be further discussion. We want there
(13:18):
to be further change. The government's still not listening, and
that is why people are becoming so incredibly frustrated.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
That arrogance creeps into governments. We saw it in the
last government, the c LP government, and we're seeing it
in this government too, that disrespect for Territorians, the arrogance,
and I think it's a sure sign that we need
a change of government when they can't see the wood
(13:49):
from the trees and they forget what really counts well.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Robin Lamley, I appreciate you chatting with us this morning.
I think you know you've put yourself out on a
limb obviously telling people exactly how this works with the
Public Accounts Committee, so that everyday Territorians have got a
better idea, because you know, otherwise, if if you didn't,
some of us would be you know, not one hundred
percent sal who's on that committee or how exactly it's
(14:14):
going to work today. So I really appreciate you having
a chat with us this morning, and we'll wait and
see what happens.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
No worries.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Thank you, Thanks a lot, Coatie, Thanks Robert
Well, coming your way in just a moment's time, we
are going to be speaking to Robin Lamley, the Independent
Member Farara lun Because this discussion about the Public Accounts
Committee and whether this petition is going to be allowed
or approved for debate in the Parliament, well it's going
to be decided today. That fate is going to be
(00:20):
decided today at midday. So essentially the way in which
this works, from my understanding, is that the MPTY Opposition
obviously tabled that petition in Parliament yesterday calling for Decklan's
Law in honor of the twenty year old who lost
his life tragically after being allegedly murdered with a weapon
whilst working, as we know, at a darw And bottle
(00:40):
shop in March this year. Now more than twenty three
thousand people have since called on the Northern Territory government
for some stronger changes and action when it comes to crime.
The petition's been referred to the Public Accounts Committee of
the Northern Territories Legislative Assembly, which is indeed responsible for
scrutinizing the government, for a decision as to whether or
(01:02):
not the matters raised in that petition should be referred
back to Parliament for debate.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Robin Lamley sits on that committee. She is indeed the
independent member for Ara Luhn and joins me on the
line right now.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Good morning, Robin, Good morning Katie, the independent member and
the thorn in their side.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
That's all right.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I think there's nothing wrong with being known as that,
particularly on something that people are so incredibly passionate about. Robin,
before I ask about the Public Accounts Committee from your
recollection in your time in Parliament, can you recall another
petition garnering such a high volume of people signing it.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
No, I don't, Katie. This is to my mind unprecedented,
and that's why I've gone public on the process. The
fact that it is up to this Public Accounts Committee
of the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly, which is controlled and
operated by the government, to allow this petition to go
(02:08):
back to Parliament to be debated. It's so important, Katie.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So Robin, what is the process today?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Well, we meet today and one of the items on
the agenda that's always there is consideration of petitions. There
are no guidelines, there's no criteria for making for this
committee on how they make decisions around whether or not
petitions then forward back to the Parliament. I did make
(02:38):
a mistake earlier. I said that I told you that
twenty three all of the twenty three petitions that have
been referred to the Public Accounts Committee since the start
of this parliament back in August twenty twenty, none of
them have gone back to Parliament. There was one that
went back to Partment.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
What was that? What was it Jeremmber.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
It was one on education boundary and that took a
hell of a plot of debate over a long period
of time to eventually get it back into Parliament for
a debate. So the chances the odds of any petition
being referred to the PAC and the PAC the Public
(03:19):
Accounts Committee then allowing it to go back to Parliament
for debate is minimal, very very low.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So today at lunchtime, so midday today, this Public Accounts
Committee is going to meet and determine whether this will
go back to the Parliament for debate.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Now, talk our listeners through.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I've mentioned it earlier this morning, but talk us through
who makes up that committee.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
So the chair of the committee is Joel Bowden and
the other two Labor members Manuel Brown, who's the new
member for Arafura, and the other member is Brent Potter,
and Brent Potter of course is the deputy chair. So
(04:05):
you've got three labor members and two non government members
myself and Bill. Yeah. So this is such an important committee,
parliamentary committee, Katie. It's meant to do really important work
on scrutinizing the government. But when you've got three out
of the five members being government members, that just doesn't happen.
(04:30):
So I've called on the committee now to make sure
that this particular petition does go back to the Parliament.
It shouldn't be a particularly long or arduous debate within
the committee, but who knows. Given that twenty two out
of the last twenty three petitions are being blocked haven't
(04:53):
gone back to the Parliament for debate, My expectations are
very low.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Well, I think that everybody on that committee, it doesn't
matter where your political stripes are, they need to actually
listen to the community. At this point in time, the
community is screaming out for change, and the community is
screaming out for the government to listen to them. If
those three members block this from happening, they ought to
be ashamed of themselves.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Absolutely Katie. I think they should be ashamed of themselves
for blocking twenty two out of the last twenty three petitions.
But if they block this one, the biggest petition in
living memory that's ever gone through the Northern Territory Parliament
or Legislative Assembly, then what does that say about the
state of the internal state of the Labor government. If
(05:41):
they can't let a debate, a fulsome debate on this
particular important issue proceed within the Parliament, it really says
to me that this government is in really a very
bad state.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Robin, are you paid extra money to be on this committee?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yes, we all are so, Joel Bowden. I get paid
an extra sixteen thousand dollars a year to sit on
the Public Accounts Committee, and Joel Bowden, being the chair,
gets paid double that. He gets paid an extra thirty
two thousand dollars per year. The output of this committee
has been appallingly low. I've been on lots of parliamentary
(06:26):
committees in my time and I have never sat on
a parliamentary committee that's paid like this. You're not paid
to sit on all of them, but because of the
importance of this particular committee you get paid. I've never
sat on one that has has had such a low output,
and I'm on the public record as saying that I've
said it before at every opportunity. Under the leadership of
(06:50):
Joel Bowden, it's been staggeringly slow and really we haven't
earned our money at all.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Do you think that more comes down to the inner
working of the Labor Party and of the government.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yes, I do. I think these three Labor members are
very clearly being instructed by Level five, by the minister ministers. Probably.
I've seen it in action. I've observed interactions between staff
from Level five during public hearings. I've seen them refer
(07:24):
to notes, the three of them, to notes that haven't
been available to myself and the other member, Billy and
the Coop member. This particular parliamentary committee is an instrument
of the Labor Government and when you have.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be those shouldn't.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I think government. No. No, it's fundamentally wrong and it's
inconsistent with the democratic processes that are supposed to exist
within the Westminster parliamentary system. This is not how parliamentary
committees operate throughout the world. Within the Westminster Parliamentary system.
(08:03):
Within the Commonwealth, how we operate our committees in the
Northern Territory is an anomaly. It is wrong. It is
not right that government has the first and final say
over the recommendations and the work that's undertaken by any
parliamentary committee. So my expectations of today are very low.
(08:25):
But I'm going into this meeting to fight for all
those twenty three thousand people that have signed the signet
this petition, and particularly for Decklan Lavity and his family
and friends. If this petition is not referred back to Parliament,
then I absolutely despair. There's big fundamental problems with how
(08:52):
our parliament is operating if this doesn't get back to
Parliament for proper debate.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Well with democracy, you know, there's fundamental problem because you
think you've got twenty three thousand people that have signed
a petition.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
How can you ignore that.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Well, they've managed to ignore twenty two out of the
last twenty three petitions. You know, it's really not a
big deal to refer petitions back to Parliament for what
is a fairly minimal debate. It's not a debate like
other bills and motions put forward. It's truncated, it's cut short,
(09:31):
but it's significant. It's significant to be allowed to debate
petitions that people Territorians are putting together and members of
Parliament are tabling in Parliament. To just ignore them is
it's brutal. It's so un democratic and fundamentally wrong.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Robin.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Someone's just asked on the tech sign, Katie, is the
Public Accounts Committee meeting going to be made public?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
They're not public, are they?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
No?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
And that's their lies the problem. And that's why I've
issued the press release on what's going to be happening
today because I will probably not be able to speak
about what goes on in this meeting today. They're very
their confidential meetings and if I was to speak out
(10:21):
of turn on anything that happens in any of the
meetings of the Public Account's Committee, I could find myself
in trouble. I'm not sure what that trouble is, and
to be honest, I don't particularly.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And do you say, I mean, could that happen to
you even now because you've spoken out.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
No, because I'm not talking about any deliberations or decisions
that have been made. I'm talking about a decision that
will be made. So I'm on safe ground here. The
only person probably who can give you the answer of
the outcome of the meeting today will be the chair
of that committee, Joel Bowden, And I suggest the media
(10:59):
ring here, it's half past one this afternoon and find
out just what the three labor members of the Public
Accounts Committee decided.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
So we will find out.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Will we will be able to find out, won't whether
they voted against this happening.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Not necessarily, No, they could. They could decide that this
remains confidential. They could instead of referring it back to
Parliament to be debated, they could ask the minister for
more details or information, which is what they commonly do.
It's a bit of a stalling tactic. It's about gathering
information and ultimately saying no you are Joe, No I'm not.
(11:39):
That's that's what happens.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Appalling, Katie, Yeah, it's appalling and unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
The relason why I stay on this committee is because
the committee needs eyes and ears like mine to see
what's going on and try and report it back to
the public, so the public then becomes aware of how dysfunctional.
Well that's how undemocratic I think.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
The thing is.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's pretty clear cut in the sense that you've come
out and said that you're going to vote in favor
for this petition being debated in parliament. The oppositions presented
it in parliament, so you know, common sense would tell
you that they're certainly going to be voting the same
way as you.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I would suspect given the faith that Fel presented.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
He said that, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So then really, you know, the only way that this
is not going to happen is if the other three
don't vote for it to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
But Robin if sorry, Matie.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I'm hoping that with your pressure, with the media coverage
that you're giving this issue this morning, and I thank
you for doing it, that Labor will be forced to
making sure that this goes back to Parliament for a
proper debate. And I think autely favorable for that reason,
and I thank you Katie for doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
And look, I really hope so.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
And do you know the disappointing thing for me is
in the past, under other governments that would have been
the case. But we've seen time and time again from
this government that even when you've got voices like Samaralavity
and others coming out and saying this is not good enough.
We want there to be further discussion. We want there
(13:18):
to be further change. The government's still not listening, and
that is why people are becoming so incredibly frustrated.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
That arrogance creeps into governments. We saw it in the
last government, the c LP government, and we're seeing it
in this government too, that disrespect for Territorians, the arrogance,
and I think it's a sure sign that we need
a change of government when they can't see the wood
(13:49):
from the trees and they forget what really counts well.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Robin Lamley, I appreciate you chatting with us this morning.
I think you know you've put yourself out on a
limb obviously telling people exactly how this works with the
Public Accounts Committee, so that everyday Territorians have got a
better idea, because you know, otherwise, if if you didn't,
some of us would be you know, not one hundred
percent sal who's on that committee or how exactly it's
(14:14):
going to work today. So I really appreciate you having
a chat with us this morning, and we'll wait and
see what happens.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
No worries.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Thank you, Thanks a lot, Coatie, Thanks Robert
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