Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now we've spoken a lot here in the three sixties
studio about police and the resourcing that they require and
some of the issues that they've seen in recent months,
and a comprehensive review into policing in the Northern Territory
has officially commenced. The review is being led by former
NT Police officer and Northern Territory Police Association President Vince
(00:22):
Kelly APM, and it aims to enhance accountability, transparency and
the overall effectiveness of Northern Territory Police. And I'm pleased
to say that joining me in the studio to tell
us more about the review is mister Vince Kelly.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Vince, Good morning Katie, and thanks for having us here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thanks so much for your time this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Now, you've obviously got extensive experience in policing here in
the Northern Territory, both in frontline roles and also with
the association. How important will that past experience be in
undertaking this review?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Well, Katie, I won't dodge your question, but perhaps I
can just say, as we talked about before we come
on air, I have been happily retired for a couple
of years now, so I didn't just jump at a
job and want to get back into the workforce. So
one of the reasons I am here is that is
that I have extensive experience both in the Northern Territory
(01:15):
Police Force and the Police Association. So I've got a
deep connection with the NT and the NT cops in
the NT community. I was lucky enough to marry lady
with large family connections across the Northern Territory, so I've
got a personal interest in the place as well from
a family perspective, and in my entire service, I always
(01:35):
thought we were trying to look after the community in
the case of the Police Association, individual members of the
police force and the police force. So that's what motivated
me to come back to the Northern Territory. In terms
of the job itself, clearly there's a number of challenges
in the Northern Territory and there's a whole raft of
things that probably need to be worked on. I'm policed
(01:57):
at this review that has been in there and that
I've been lucky enough to be selected to lead. Has
support across the political spectrum, and I've received very positive
support from people I know that I've bumped into in
the street since I've been back in down over the
last few days, so we'll be looking as much as
we can extensively the things you would expect when you
(02:20):
do a resource review about rosters, leave management, exactly how
many people are doing what and where. We also want
to try and get a sense of community expectations and
just figure out if what people expect the police to
be doing is actually lined up with what the police
is supposed to be doing. So there's a whole raft
of things that are going to take a little bit
of time for us to get our head around. I'm
(02:41):
very pleased that Commissioner Murphy's very supportive of the review.
He's released two very experienced officers who are going to
be working directly for me, so the review will remain
its independence, and that's Acting Commander Gill and Acting the
Superintendent Carter. So both those officers have got sense of
operational experience, and to be frank they've already started to
(03:03):
fill in the gaps for me because my operational experience
is quite dated. Now. I still have an understanding of
the way the police operate, but quite clear in my
operational experiences is dated.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, but I mean, I guess your historical experience in
the Northern Territory and your understanding of the Northern Territory
does stand you in good stead. And then as you've said,
you've got those two very experienced officers able to support
you in this role. It's been eleven years correct me
if I'm wrong since we last had a review.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, well, there is some irony in me being selected
to do this our job because I wasn't previously. As
you've said, the president of the Police Association was a
strong advocate for a review that ultimately led to the
O'Sullivan review. So yeah, that was the last extensive review.
But again, Katie, I've got to say there has even
from the initial first week I've been in a job,
(03:50):
there's been a lot of done work done internally within
the police force to review various parts of their operation,
but probably not something over arching like this. So I'm
actually hopeful a lot of the stuff that we're interested
in it's actually already been done and it's a matter
of pulling it all together and being in a position
at the end of the process to say to government
and the opposition as alternative government, here's a raidmap for
(04:12):
the future, and think about where the police force needs
to be tomorrow and where it needs to be in
five ten years time. Look, and I'm a realist. I
know that people are frustrated at the moment with what
they see as social problems in the street. But ultimately
I can't fix those things. I'm not here to fix
those things. I'm simply here to assess what government and
(04:36):
community want the police to do and see what resources
they need to do it. And it goes beyond the police.
I think also we need to assess as part of
this process what other government agencies need to do to
support the police, and what the police need to do
is support those things because a lot of the problems
we see on the street aren't simple, aren't simply problems
of crime and more cops and locking everybody up.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Now, tell me, how are you going to do this?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
What steps are you going to sort of take to
be able to do this, because it is going to
be a massive body of work. I know you've said
that you're hoping some of that work has really already
been undertaken. I know that we've spoken to the previous
Northern Territory Police Commissioner as well about some of the
work that was getting underway into resourcing and that kind
of thing. But how are you hoping to really work
(05:24):
through this, particularly looking at those numbers, because we keep
hearing numbers thrown around about how many additional police we
need in the territory.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Well, well, first of all, we are in week once.
I'm still working with government, with the Department, Chief Minister
and Sean and Emma to put together a team. So
you know, it'll be a cross government team with people
from Treasury and other departments that have a direct input
into the way things are resource In terms of the
(05:55):
strict argument about numbers, I mean, again as a former
union president and former police so I'm fully aware that
when it comes to numbers, it depends what question you
ask and where you start you're counting from, and how
you count. So again, we're just going to have to
work through those issues. And again I think that's one
of the advantages I do have. I do know it
drives different sectors and different segments of the police force.
(06:18):
So we just got to work our way through that
and get to a point where we can say, okay,
well this is what we think. But again, I think
a lot of this stuff is not going to necessarily
be simply around numbers. And if it was simply a
numbers review, as I said to both the Chief Minister
and the Police Minister when they first appraised me, ear
if simply a look at numbers, you don't need me.
(06:39):
You just go to Treasury and ask the question and
come back with a number. So there's a lot more
to this, and I'm very conscious of looking at the
way leaves managed in particular including sick leave, very interested
in the way the Commissioner has decided to or progress
looking after the welfare of members. All these things impact
(07:01):
on the availability of police, and as I said, I'm
very interested in what police are being expected to do
now that they probably weren't when I was a young
police officer, and equally what people are expecting to do.
And it is it appropriate for police to be doing
some of these things. So it is a complex question
and how are we going to do it? We are
we going to talk to people for a start, yep,
We're going to talk to cops on the ground. That's
(07:22):
they're the people we obviously want to talk to, probably
the most, But of course we want to talk to
other government agencies and people who deal interact with police. Regularly.
We want to talk to members of the community. There's
been a there's a contact email address. We're happy to
hear from anybody. Will take the time to read what
people have got to say to us. If people want
(07:44):
to meet me, I don't have the phone numbers or contact.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Details, that's all good. We can do that.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
We will meet with people where possible, and it is
our intention, myself and Sean and Emmer at this stage
to get to everywhere where police officers work across the
Northern Territory and given the opportunity to talk to us,
we're happy to take submissions by email or even the
old fashioned way. You can write me a letter. I'm
(08:10):
still old fashioned enough to read them. So, you know,
if people if people feel that they've got a contribution
to make, I don't care where they're from, what their
background is, how they want to do that, we are
happy to hear from them.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Since one of the other really big issues that we've
heard about over the last year or so has been
morale within the Northern Territory Police Force. You know, one
of those recent Northern Territory Police Association surveys had said
that morale was at an all time low is that
something that's going to be a focus here as well.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Look, I'm very conscious of that, and I'm also very
conscious of not criticizing previous police commissioners and that type
of thing. But in respect of that, there's clearly a
perception that there's been a disconnect between senior management of
the police force and the troops on the greend. And
I am hopeful that given my background, I was never
(09:05):
a senior manager in the police force as such, although
some would say a senior sergeant is. So I'm hopeful
that the rank and file members the troops on the
ground will give me the opportunity along with Sean and Emma,
And knowing that we're not working for the Commissioner of Police,
we're not working directly for the government, we are faired
income about being independent, I'm hopeful they'll give us the
(09:26):
opportunity to try and do something to assist them in
being able to do their jobs and creating a better workplace.
And look, I know Commissioner Murphy has certainly indicated to
me a number of times now, including before I got
this job, when I was up here earlier in the
year when I bumped into it, that he is very
much focused on rebuilding the relationship between his management team
(09:49):
and police officers. So I mean, I think you've got
to give him credit for having that intent and give
him the opportunity to deliver. So I'm hopeful that as
we get around the territory, members take the time to
talk to us and Katie. To be honest, Again, from
my experience as a union president, sometimes people just want
the opportunity to have a winch and be heard, and
(10:11):
we'll do both those things, but we're going to take
the We're going to take the winch and see if
it can be worked into something a process of recommendations
that improve their workplace.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Vince, there are a lot of police officers that listen
to this show and their families obviously that listen to
the show. Can we expect sort of regular updates or
is it going to be a situation where it will
be work that is undertaken and we sort of won't
hear a lot until it is complace.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Well, look, Katie, I think the reality is is after
I talk to you today and maybe some of your
competitors tomorrow, there'll be radio silence. Not because I'm trying
to avoid things or avoid the mode you'll be going.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
To get in undated with calls.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
To be honest with you, because you know, I'm not
shy of the media. But the reality is people have
got to give us the opportunity now to get on
with the job. And I'm more than happy to talk
to police officers and their families. All they've got to
do is go through the process of getting in touch
with me. And you know, if people take the time
to contact us, we'll take the time to get back
(11:08):
to them. And I know we're in trouble because we
really only did our first media thing yesterday and the
Commissioner sent out something yesterday and we've already overnight We've
received a multitude of responses and feedback from various rooms
of the police force. I mean, people are engaged and interested.
But all I would say is try and think broadly,
(11:30):
think simply. I think beyond the simple numbers things, because
this is an opportunity that's not going to come along.
Well last one was, as you say, over ten years ago.
So this is the opportunity to try and make changes
that are good and go beyond simple numbers.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Well, look, you know, one of the biggest things that
we hear I think quite often as well in this
studio is people are really grateful to the police for
the work that they do. You know, we hear from
a lot of people when they're at their lowest, when
they've had their house broken into, when they've had something
really terrible happened to them very fast, to say that
the Territory police have been there promptly and have helped them,
but their only concern is that there's not enough of
(12:07):
them to be able to get out to everything.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So it's become an issue as well.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's not just sort of a you know, an internal
police issue, but it has become something that the whole
community is talking about.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Oh. Look, and again I'm not known. I'm aware that
there are real challenges for both the police force. I've
been told, you know, anecdotal stories of police being unable
to respond both by members of the community, by politicians,
by police officers themselves. So I'm really aware of that.
And look, and I am biased. I do believe at
(12:40):
its heart, the Northern Territory Police Force is a good institution.
I do think however, over the years we've made mistakes,
and when we have, we've tried to acknowledge those mistakes
and tried to get things right. I think I do
accept that we've had at times a difficult relationship with
various Aboriginal communities across the Northern Territory's part of the job.
(13:00):
So but perhaps I'm naive enough to think that, you know,
over the next six months we can if we need
to rebuild some of those bridges, both with the police
workforce and the broader community. But at the same time,
look at what is and I know what's concerning people.
I've been here for a week. I generally walk around,
particularly in the evening, so I've bumped into a lot
(13:23):
of people that I know who have expressed me views
and their concerns about what's going on. Very and you're
quite right, very rare is the criticism of the actual
police themselves when they're there to do the job. And
I guess the concern is how do we get them
there to do the job, And that's part of this process.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Well, Vince Kelly, we really appreciate your time this morning.
Thank you very much for coming in and having a
chat to us, and of course the email if people
do want to get in contact with you too, obviously
you know, let you know what they think it is.
Police dot Review twenty twenty three at NT dot gov
dot au.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Vince, thank you very very much for your time.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Thanks very much, Katie, it's been a pleasure and thanks
for the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Thank you.
Now we've spoken a lot here in the three sixties
studio about police and the resourcing that they require and
some of the issues that they've seen in recent months,
and a comprehensive review into policing in the Northern Territory
has officially commenced. The review is being led by former
NT Police officer and Northern Territory Police Association President Vince
(00:22):
Kelly APM, and it aims to enhance accountability, transparency and
the overall effectiveness of Northern Territory Police. And I'm pleased
to say that joining me in the studio to tell
us more about the review is mister Vince Kelly.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Vince, Good morning Katie, and thanks for having us here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thanks so much for your time this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Now, you've obviously got extensive experience in policing here in
the Northern Territory, both in frontline roles and also with
the association. How important will that past experience be in
undertaking this review?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Well, Katie, I won't dodge your question, but perhaps I
can just say, as we talked about before we come
on air, I have been happily retired for a couple
of years now, so I didn't just jump at a
job and want to get back into the workforce. So
one of the reasons I am here is that is
that I have extensive experience both in the Northern Territory
(01:15):
Police Force and the Police Association. So I've got a
deep connection with the NT and the NT cops in
the NT community. I was lucky enough to marry lady
with large family connections across the Northern Territory, so I've
got a personal interest in the place as well from
a family perspective, and in my entire service, I always
(01:35):
thought we were trying to look after the community in
the case of the Police Association, individual members of the
police force and the police force. So that's what motivated
me to come back to the Northern Territory. In terms
of the job itself, clearly there's a number of challenges
in the Northern Territory and there's a whole raft of
things that probably need to be worked on. I'm policed
(01:57):
at this review that has been in there and that
I've been lucky enough to be selected to lead. Has
support across the political spectrum, and I've received very positive
support from people I know that I've bumped into in
the street since I've been back in down over the
last few days, so we'll be looking as much as
we can extensively the things you would expect when you
(02:20):
do a resource review about rosters, leave management, exactly how
many people are doing what and where. We also want
to try and get a sense of community expectations and
just figure out if what people expect the police to
be doing is actually lined up with what the police
is supposed to be doing. So there's a whole raft
of things that are going to take a little bit
of time for us to get our head around. I'm
(02:41):
very pleased that Commissioner Murphy's very supportive of the review.
He's released two very experienced officers who are going to
be working directly for me, so the review will remain
its independence, and that's Acting Commander Gill and Acting the
Superintendent Carter. So both those officers have got sense of
operational experience, and to be frank they've already started to
(03:03):
fill in the gaps for me because my operational experience
is quite dated. Now. I still have an understanding of
the way the police operate, but quite clear in my
operational experiences is dated.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, but I mean, I guess your historical experience in
the Northern Territory and your understanding of the Northern Territory
does stand you in good stead. And then as you've said,
you've got those two very experienced officers able to support
you in this role. It's been eleven years correct me
if I'm wrong since we last had a review.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, well, there is some irony in me being selected
to do this our job because I wasn't previously. As
you've said, the president of the Police Association was a
strong advocate for a review that ultimately led to the
O'Sullivan review. So yeah, that was the last extensive review.
But again, Katie, I've got to say there has even
from the initial first week I've been in a job,
(03:50):
there's been a lot of done work done internally within
the police force to review various parts of their operation,
but probably not something over arching like this. So I'm
actually hopeful a lot of the stuff that we're interested
in it's actually already been done and it's a matter
of pulling it all together and being in a position
at the end of the process to say to government
and the opposition as alternative government, here's a raidmap for
(04:12):
the future, and think about where the police force needs
to be tomorrow and where it needs to be in
five ten years time. Look, and I'm a realist. I
know that people are frustrated at the moment with what
they see as social problems in the street. But ultimately
I can't fix those things. I'm not here to fix
those things. I'm simply here to assess what government and
(04:36):
community want the police to do and see what resources
they need to do it. And it goes beyond the police.
I think also we need to assess as part of
this process what other government agencies need to do to
support the police, and what the police need to do
is support those things because a lot of the problems
we see on the street aren't simple, aren't simply problems
of crime and more cops and locking everybody up.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Now, tell me, how are you going to do this?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
What steps are you going to sort of take to
be able to do this, because it is going to
be a massive body of work. I know you've said
that you're hoping some of that work has really already
been undertaken. I know that we've spoken to the previous
Northern Territory Police Commissioner as well about some of the
work that was getting underway into resourcing and that kind
of thing. But how are you hoping to really work
(05:24):
through this, particularly looking at those numbers, because we keep
hearing numbers thrown around about how many additional police we
need in the territory.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Well, well, first of all, we are in week once.
I'm still working with government, with the Department, Chief Minister
and Sean and Emma to put together a team. So
you know, it'll be a cross government team with people
from Treasury and other departments that have a direct input
into the way things are resource In terms of the
(05:55):
strict argument about numbers, I mean, again as a former
union president and former police so I'm fully aware that
when it comes to numbers, it depends what question you
ask and where you start you're counting from, and how
you count. So again, we're just going to have to
work through those issues. And again I think that's one
of the advantages I do have. I do know it
drives different sectors and different segments of the police force.
(06:18):
So we just got to work our way through that
and get to a point where we can say, okay,
well this is what we think. But again, I think
a lot of this stuff is not going to necessarily
be simply around numbers. And if it was simply a
numbers review, as I said to both the Chief Minister
and the Police Minister when they first appraised me, ear
if simply a look at numbers, you don't need me.
(06:39):
You just go to Treasury and ask the question and
come back with a number. So there's a lot more
to this, and I'm very conscious of looking at the
way leaves managed in particular including sick leave, very interested
in the way the Commissioner has decided to or progress
looking after the welfare of members. All these things impact
(07:01):
on the availability of police, and as I said, I'm
very interested in what police are being expected to do
now that they probably weren't when I was a young
police officer, and equally what people are expecting to do.
And it is it appropriate for police to be doing
some of these things. So it is a complex question
and how are we going to do it? We are
we going to talk to people for a start, yep,
We're going to talk to cops on the ground. That's
(07:22):
they're the people we obviously want to talk to, probably
the most, But of course we want to talk to
other government agencies and people who deal interact with police. Regularly.
We want to talk to members of the community. There's
been a there's a contact email address. We're happy to
hear from anybody. Will take the time to read what
people have got to say to us. If people want
(07:44):
to meet me, I don't have the phone numbers or contact.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Details, that's all good. We can do that.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
We will meet with people where possible, and it is
our intention, myself and Sean and Emmer at this stage
to get to everywhere where police officers work across the
Northern Territory and given the opportunity to talk to us,
we're happy to take submissions by email or even the
old fashioned way. You can write me a letter. I'm
(08:10):
still old fashioned enough to read them. So, you know,
if people if people feel that they've got a contribution
to make, I don't care where they're from, what their
background is, how they want to do that, we are
happy to hear from them.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Since one of the other really big issues that we've
heard about over the last year or so has been
morale within the Northern Territory Police Force. You know, one
of those recent Northern Territory Police Association surveys had said
that morale was at an all time low is that
something that's going to be a focus here as well.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Look, I'm very conscious of that, and I'm also very
conscious of not criticizing previous police commissioners and that type
of thing. But in respect of that, there's clearly a
perception that there's been a disconnect between senior management of
the police force and the troops on the greend. And
I am hopeful that given my background, I was never
(09:05):
a senior manager in the police force as such, although
some would say a senior sergeant is. So I'm hopeful
that the rank and file members the troops on the
ground will give me the opportunity along with Sean and Emma,
And knowing that we're not working for the Commissioner of Police,
we're not working directly for the government, we are faired
income about being independent, I'm hopeful they'll give us the
(09:26):
opportunity to try and do something to assist them in
being able to do their jobs and creating a better workplace.
And look, I know Commissioner Murphy has certainly indicated to
me a number of times now, including before I got
this job, when I was up here earlier in the
year when I bumped into it, that he is very
much focused on rebuilding the relationship between his management team
(09:49):
and police officers. So I mean, I think you've got
to give him credit for having that intent and give
him the opportunity to deliver. So I'm hopeful that as
we get around the territory, members take the time to
talk to us and Katie. To be honest, Again, from
my experience as a union president, sometimes people just want
the opportunity to have a winch and be heard, and
(10:11):
we'll do both those things, but we're going to take
the We're going to take the winch and see if
it can be worked into something a process of recommendations
that improve their workplace.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Vince, there are a lot of police officers that listen
to this show and their families obviously that listen to
the show. Can we expect sort of regular updates or
is it going to be a situation where it will
be work that is undertaken and we sort of won't
hear a lot until it is complace.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Well, look, Katie, I think the reality is is after
I talk to you today and maybe some of your
competitors tomorrow, there'll be radio silence. Not because I'm trying
to avoid things or avoid the mode you'll be going.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
To get in undated with calls.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
To be honest with you, because you know, I'm not
shy of the media. But the reality is people have
got to give us the opportunity now to get on
with the job. And I'm more than happy to talk
to police officers and their families. All they've got to
do is go through the process of getting in touch
with me. And you know, if people take the time
to contact us, we'll take the time to get back
(11:08):
to them. And I know we're in trouble because we
really only did our first media thing yesterday and the
Commissioner sent out something yesterday and we've already overnight We've
received a multitude of responses and feedback from various rooms
of the police force. I mean, people are engaged and interested.
But all I would say is try and think broadly,
(11:30):
think simply. I think beyond the simple numbers things, because
this is an opportunity that's not going to come along.
Well last one was, as you say, over ten years ago.
So this is the opportunity to try and make changes
that are good and go beyond simple numbers.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Well, look, you know, one of the biggest things that
we hear I think quite often as well in this
studio is people are really grateful to the police for
the work that they do. You know, we hear from
a lot of people when they're at their lowest, when
they've had their house broken into, when they've had something
really terrible happened to them very fast, to say that
the Territory police have been there promptly and have helped them,
but their only concern is that there's not enough of
(12:07):
them to be able to get out to everything.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So it's become an issue as well.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's not just sort of a you know, an internal
police issue, but it has become something that the whole
community is talking about.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Oh. Look, and again I'm not known. I'm aware that
there are real challenges for both the police force. I've
been told, you know, anecdotal stories of police being unable
to respond both by members of the community, by politicians,
by police officers themselves. So I'm really aware of that.
And look, and I am biased. I do believe at
(12:40):
its heart, the Northern Territory Police Force is a good institution.
I do think however, over the years we've made mistakes,
and when we have, we've tried to acknowledge those mistakes
and tried to get things right. I think I do
accept that we've had at times a difficult relationship with
various Aboriginal communities across the Northern Territory's part of the job.
(13:00):
So but perhaps I'm naive enough to think that, you know,
over the next six months we can if we need
to rebuild some of those bridges, both with the police
workforce and the broader community. But at the same time,
look at what is and I know what's concerning people.
I've been here for a week. I generally walk around,
particularly in the evening, so I've bumped into a lot
(13:23):
of people that I know who have expressed me views
and their concerns about what's going on. Very and you're
quite right, very rare is the criticism of the actual
police themselves when they're there to do the job. And
I guess the concern is how do we get them
there to do the job, And that's part of this process.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Well, Vince Kelly, we really appreciate your time this morning.
Thank you very much for coming in and having a
chat to us, and of course the email if people
do want to get in contact with you too, obviously
you know, let you know what they think it is.
Police dot Review twenty twenty three at NT dot gov
dot au.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Vince, thank you very very much for your time.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Thanks very much, Katie, it's been a pleasure and thanks
for the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Thank you.
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