Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We know that, as discussed earlier in the week, the
former youth detention center is set to be knocked down
a tender release this week for the demolition of that building.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
But we know the youth detention Center don Dale.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
That is currently being used it is going to be
repurposed for adult corrections and it's I guess it's a
bit for people to take in. We did discuss this
further this morning on the week that was and it
made it a little bit clearer. But joining me in
the studio this morning to talk a little bit more
about how our correctional facilities are currently tracking, but also
(00:32):
about the appointment of the new Deputy Commissioner. Well, joining
us in the studio right now is the Commissioner and
that is Matthew Varley.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Good morning Katie, and of.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Course we've got doctor Yolanda Adams and you are the
new Deputy Commissioner.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thanks so much for your time this morning.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Thank you, Kenny.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Now, Yolanda, we might go to you first. I know
that you've just stepped into the role and it is
really your first interview since become the Deputy commissioner.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
How is it all going I suppose.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
First off, Yeah, I'm so excited to be a part
of anti correctional services. I think it's a real opportunity
to be able to do something very different, and I'm
looking forward to being part of the neuroforms as we're
going forward.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, and look, I guess we know that at this
point in time, corrections is certainly a very busy place.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
There is no doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
But you've got a wealth of experience or a background
in clinical programs of fender services and a strategic and
practical At a strategic and practical level, but you've also
got expertise in growing our offender development, rehabilitation and reintegration capabilities.
And I think that for a lot of people listening
this morning, that's going to be a good.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Thing to hear.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Everybody understands that some people are going to need to
spend time in correctional facilities, but when they come out,
they want to make sure that they have got better
options that they're able to reintegrate into the community. So
how do you play to use that experience to sort
of hopefully make that happen.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
So I'm a professional psychologist registered for about twenty three
years I'm Alarikiir woman, so born and raised in Darwin
and very happy to be, as I said, working with corrections.
I guess my experience and expertise that I bring to
this position is icy is and valuable in terms of
how we shape our future programs, how we bring all
(02:26):
the pieces of the prisons together so that we can
have a model that is more contextualized for the population
in the Northern Territory. So, you know, we really want
to make sure that the programs that we develop are
really relevant to our highest numbers of prisoners Abrajeon Tasra,
all under people, So we want to make sure that
(02:48):
it's tailored to that population.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
And so then with your background obviously as a Lara
Kiir woman, but somebody who's born and raised in the
Northern Territory as well, I think that that's such a
huge thing. You're hoping that your background is you know,
is able to hopefully see some change in this space,
particularly when you talk about the high rates of incarceration
amongst original people in the end.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
To yeah, sure. So I come with a range of expertise,
so mental health.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I've worked in.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Corrections previously as a psychologist. I also come with some
international experience as well, so I've worked in the Canadian
correctional system as well as the healing lodges over there,
So there is some evidence based models out there already.
I've just recently gained my PhD and that was specifically
looking at anti prisons and around prison social climate. So,
(03:42):
you know, with all of that together and looking at
programs that are more relevant, it's about how do we
actually bring an evidence based model into programs with that
cultural lens around the design and the delivery of those programs.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
And how long have you been in the role currently,
Is it just a few.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Weeks it's coming up to three months?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, right, so it has been a little while, no
doubt you've hit the ground running. And have you sort
of seen anything that you're thinking to yourself straight away, Okay,
I'd like to make some in roads in this space.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Yeah, they sure is. So my responsibility is to oversee
operations directions. So what that means is community corrections, our
programs and also our custodial operations. So what I will
like to achieve or as a team is to actually
look at how we integrate all those three portfolio areas
(04:33):
so that we can work towards a model of rehabilitation
for our offenders to be able to successfully reintegrate back
into the community and hopefully to reduce those reciptivism rates.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, that's what everybody. That's what everybody really wants, isn't it.
When people do spend time in prison, you hope that
they're able to come out better humans and maybe even
armed with some skills to be able to reintegrate into
the community in a more effective way where you're actually contributing.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
To the community.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Commissioner, how are our numbers tracking at the moment in
our correctional facilities.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Katie, We remain full, we remain under pressure, and you know,
you and I've spoken about those numbers only a few
weeks ago. We have about six hundred and eighty in
Alice Springs and thirteen seventy this morning in Darwin, and
we have our t work camps that are at capacity,
so we are significantly under pressure and we've been juggling
(05:29):
those numbers, you know, every day. We have overflow into
those watchhouses that we've spoken about still and one of
the tricky pieces that we've been managing in the last
few weeks with corporation from police is also some prisoners
on remand being held into the Ala Springs Watchhouse, and
that is not a permanent solution.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
That's just something we're.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
Managing as we deal with admissions and discharges into the
main and Alur Springs facility.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So in terms of the numbers that we've got on
remand at the moment, how are those percentages looking, are
they still quite high?
Speaker 5 (06:00):
They are, They're about forty five to forty six percent
at the moment of our total population. So this morning
we have nine hundred and eighty two people on demand, Katie.
Now that's a lot. We're nudging that thousand figure. We
have two two hundred and forty eight prisoners in the
Northern Territory today. So as you can see, it's you
know a lot of people sitting on remand a lot
(06:21):
of people waiting their day in court, and those decisions
are made by judges and we hold those people until
their trial or their.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Court hearing dates.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
The challenges of course, as that number grows, that is
putting significant pressure right across our system.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
And so we know that that number has been growing.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
It's the single contributor, I suppose to our growth over
the last sort of twelve to eight eight months, and
we have had about three hundred more prisoners enter the
system in the last twenty or so months, and that's
really part of the pressure that we're dealing with that's
brought about these new changes for new facilities.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I mean, they're huge numbers of people on remand.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Are our numbers of people that are on remand comparatively
to other states, are they quite high or is that
something that you see in other places too?
Speaker 3 (07:07):
It varies.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
We see some commonalities with other jurisdictions. I was down
meeting with the WA and South Australian Commissioners for Corrections
only this week. Earlier this week, South Australia I think
is sitting around forty five to forty six percent too.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
It's something that some.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Jurisdictions most well, a few jurisdictions are the outliers, but
most jurisdictions have seen an uptick in Roman numbers since
the end of the pandemic YEP. I think there's a
whole range of factors behind that. But for us here
in the Northern Territory, the primary driver has been assault,
aggravated assault, domestic violence and alcohol related violence.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I mean, like it's real, it is a real worry
in terms of the numbers that we are saying. I
know that a lot of work is now happening to
really make sure that we've got further capacity for those prisoners.
We've got a few different modulars and things that were
coming online that I've think think you and I spoke
about last time.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
How theyre going currently.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
So they're under construction. The concrete's been poured for the foundations.
I saw that a week ago in Alice Springs. The
construction for those modulars is progressing. We're still on track
for those by midyear.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
The modulars are on site. So now the.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
Contractor is managing the groundworks and the foundations, and we
should start seeing those modulars hoisted over the fence and
dropped into position very soon.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And then when we talk about don Dale, it's going
to be coming online or repurpose for adult corrections. The
Chief Minister had said to us earlier in the week
that she is hoping that the new Youth Justice facility
is going to be up and running. I think it
was by the end of June, so that hopefully then
the old don Dale is able to be repurposed and
(08:48):
utilized rather quickly, hopefully for adult corrections. Do you have
a bit of an eta on when it will come online.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Well, as you've said, we expect Territory Families to vacate
that building by midyear. We're working with Dipple and architects
and engineers now on options.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
To upgrade that facility.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Let's remember that it was the old Beerham of prison before,
so you know we've had a look at it. I've
been in there, Docor Adams has been in there, some
of my team have been in there with Dipple, and
you might remember from my days at Territory Families I
was responsible for Youth Justice, so I know.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
The facility pretty well.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Our view is that it can be brought online as
a male sentenced prison reasonably quickly. Now there's some work
attached to security upgrades and some changes to the way
we want to run the site. I hope that we'd
be able to have that operational by the end of
the year.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah. Right, So what are those changes that you're hoping
to sort of have so that you are able to
utilize it in the way that you're wanting to.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
So, for example, the first thing we're going to do
is do a top to bottom security assessment. The custody
of adult prisoners is slightly different to children, and we
have a range of measures that our team will go
in and assess pretty soon. Also, we're going to look
at things so, for example, we want to make sure
(10:11):
that we can self sustain our prisoner population in there,
so we put some men in there to do their
programs and their education and their skills training. We want
them to be able to cook, we want them to
be able to clean, we want them to make sure
that they've got the right common areas available. Now, the
way in which the children's facility runs is different to
the way we would run it. Yeah, so our job
will be to make sure we've got those facilities right
(10:34):
for our adult prisoners. For example, you know, the children
in there don't cook their own meals. Our prisoners do.
So there's things like that.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
We can do and things like that.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I mean, for adult corrections, you would think absolutely should
be happening right if they're able to be self sufficient
and operational. I think that that is absolutely the way
that a lot of people listening would hope that it
is going on.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Well, that's right, and you know, all of our current sites,
the two prisons and the two work camps have kitchens.
Our prisoners will work in those kitchens, those laundries and
those other integral facilities every day. Darwin Correctional Center Katie
has a massive industrial kitchen. We churn out over three
thousand meals a day wow.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
And again rightly, so you know, if it can be
self sufficient and the prisoners are able to do that,
that is absolutely what should be happening.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Absolutely right.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
And you know we have prisoners engaged in employment right
across the prison. It's not often spoken about and it's
not well publicized. We think we can do better in
that regard. But you know, that's part of our new
arrangement with Charles Darwin UNI as well, is you know,
not only are they working, but they're getting skills and
quals as well while they're in there, so people can
do you know, certificates in.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Hospitality and catering.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
We have people who do certificates in woodworking and other
metalworking skills. And we have a very active industries portfolio
as well, so we have workshops where people can gain
those trade skills. Now, part of this government's instruction to
me is that they want to see those industries facility
is upgraded and improved over time, and that's also part
(12:03):
of the review we'll be doing in the next financial year.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Okay, so it does sound like there's a bit of
work to get under way, can I ask, as World Commissioner.
I know that there had been some discussion a little
earlier this morning, in fact, on the week that was
about the current adult corrections here in Darwin, about whether
the damage that was caused I think it was actually
I can't remember exactly what it was that right, that
happened a little while back, Whether that has now been
(12:26):
fixed yep.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
So the building you're talking about there, Katie, is what
we refer to as Sector two into the Darwin Correctional Center.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Now that's code for.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
A building that is designated at our programs, education and
office administration block. It's right smack bang in the middle
of the Darwen Prison and it operates almost as kind
of like a crossroads from a range of the prison
accommodation sectors and the prisoners move along those pathways to
Sector two and they come in there for their programs
and their education classes.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It's not an accommodation block.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
I just want to make that really clear, and it
also encompasses something we call movement control, which is our
centralized harb I spose for prisoners moving around the prison.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
That occurred are the.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
Right you're referring to, occurred in May twenty twenty. The
construction has been well progressed. In fact, I saw it
the other day. We expect that building to be back
online by end of financial year.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
It's ready to go.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay, So is it having any impact in terms of
some of the programs being delivered with that area still
being under construction, Yeah, it.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Has, and that's something we've been working around for a
few years now. Obviously, we installed some temporary classrooms in
other parts.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Of the facility.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
It's not been ideal and it has slowed us down,
and that's why you see some of our program numbers
have been under pressure the last couple of years.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
We've been quite open about that.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
But that facility has been an eighteen month reconstruction project.
It will be basically well has been basically gutted and
it'll be rebuilt and it's expected to be back online
by the middle of the year.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
End of financial year, which is a good thing. I
think if you can get those programs back, were able
to be utilized in those locations, and as you've said,
some of those numbers obviously having to change over time.
Now tell me in terms of the old Behmer prison
or the current don Dale coming online and being something
that Adult Corrections is able to utilize over the coming months,
(14:20):
how big an impact is that going to have when
you talk about the prisoner numbers that we currently have,
and when you talk about different programs being able to
be undertaken, but also when you talk about I suppose
appropriateness for both our male and female prisoners to have
space yeap.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
So it's going to have a significant change impact for us,
but it's part of a much bigger jigsaw puzzle CADI.
So the announcement last week was a whole range of
infrastructure works for Corrections, including the establishment of the don
Dale Center as a male skills training and education center
and also the establishment of those two new women's facilities.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Now, when we.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Look at all of the jigsaw pieces and we put
all of those parts together, we think that that will
create a knock on effect and a creation effect of
about three hundred and fifty extra male beds.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Now, let me walk you through that.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
We think the don Dale site can be converted to
a male facility, you know, around about one hundred to
one hundred and ten beds pretty quickly, and that's without
you know, further expansion work. So just using the existing buildings,
we think we can accommodate up to about one hundred
and ten men pretty quick. Now, what that does is
(15:37):
also works with the female system. And currently, and this
is really important, currently our female prisoners are held within
a subset of the larger male prisons, both in Darwin
and Alas. That has a whole range of knock on
effects to how we are able to support women in
custody and provide services to them. And ultimately they're confined
(15:57):
in a much smaller zone and the new women's facilities
will give them their own space and their own facilities
and the ability to move more freely. And then adjunct
to that, Dr Adams and her team are going to
be looking at how we create customized programs for women
right now. The bit that has the knock on jigsaw
puzzle effect is when we move women out of Darwin
(16:20):
and Alice Springs prison we can obviously take over their
zones for extra men's spaces and that's where we come
up with another one hundred and fifty odd male beds,
both in Darwin and alyis so somewhere in the vicinity
of my apologies, somewhere in the vicinity of three hundred
and fifty male beds we think we can generate plus
the new women's beds.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
How big an impact is that going to have? When
you look at the it seems like we've got ballooning
numbers of prisoners right now.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
So our prison numbers have increased substantially in the last
two years, and obviously we look at our projections really closely.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Now.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
The bit that I can't control, Katie, obviously is you know,
the decisions of courts and what's going on out in
community that ultimately sends people to jail. Right, But when
you look at the projections, and if we weren't to
do these strategies, we're already at maximum capacity. So I
don't want to think about what the numbers tell me
in the next eighteen months. If we didn't do this,
(17:19):
we would be in trouble, seriously in trouble. So this
is common sense, This makes practical sense, and it's the quickest,
cheapest way I think, instead of if we were going
to go and build a new prison. I'd be in
a three to five year construction window out more money.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, and that's the thing, you know, it does seem
and I know there's been discussion about whether it's a
backflip and you know, and that kind of thing. But
at the end of the day, we need that space
for prisoners. We do need to make sure that we've
got somewhere for them to be able to go when
we've got such high rates of crime at this point.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
That's right, Katie.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
And at the end of the day, the Dondale facility
obviously is with controversy, right, I get that. But for me,
my job for Territorians is to make sure you know,
when people come to custody, I've got a safe and
secure place to put them. I think that's what Territorians
would expect to me. Whilst they're there, we want to
make sure they're given the rehabilitation services, the education, the programs,
(18:16):
the skills to take changes in their life. But I
can't do that without the right space.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
In terms of then the operating budget that you have
sort of every year, though, is it going to make
a big difference to you. You've got all of these
additional beds coming online. And I know that you can
only really do what you can do within the budget
that you're given. But in terms of the operating budget,
I would imagine that those increased prisoner numbers are the
increased facilities and that are required.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
It is going to have an impact.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
It will have an impact on our budget.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
But obviously we've been putting our case to government over
the last two years and I've been you know, listen
to To be fair, we will have gone from a
two one hundred and twenty odd million dollar budget two
odd years ago to two hundred and ninety odd million
dollars from one July. So it's a seventy million dollar
increase that allows us to get on with recruiting more staff,
(19:11):
providing more.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Services, and of course prisoners cost money to hold.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
You know, we obviously have to pay for food, clothing
and other services. But you know, I don't think this
is the end of the story. This is a growth
phase for Corrections and my job is to make sure
I'm using that resource profile to best effect, giving territorians
the service that they expect for the safety of the community,
and recruiting more staff.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
And that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Dr Adams we touched on just a moment ago, or
the commissioner touched on just a moment ago, some of
those programs in for our female prisoners.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
What you know, what are.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
You sort of looking at doing in terms of those
female prisoners, particularly if they dow have I guess a
bit more of their own space in those coming months.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
What we're really trying to achieve, Katie, is is having
fit for purpose model of programs and services that we
deliver for women. We know that women enter prison with
higher mental health needs, histories of domestic violence and trauma.
So what we want to do is make sure that
(20:15):
we design programs that are evidence based, and what I
mean by that is that we will actually consult with
key stacles in the community as well as the women
themselves around what those programs might look like in an
effort to be able to deliver programs that are, like
I said, developed within a local context and that really
(20:36):
looks at the underlying causes of offending. Just lastly, before
I let you both go, how are we looking in
terms of those staffing numbers? You know, it's something that
recruitment has been at the four for you for quite
some time.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Commissioner. How those numbers looking look?
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Where always recruiting, Katie.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
You might remember when we spoke a couple of weeks ago,
we had the pleasure of swearing in about fifty one
new coreational officers month.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
We have new.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
Courses scheduled i'd say in the next month or so.
We're continuing to recruit experience correction offices from interstate and
New Zealand. And you know we are working hard to
recruit clinicians, social workers and psychologists as well. We're a
bit over one thousand staff now, Katie. This new budget
announcement sets the scene for another ninety new staff will.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Recruit in the year ahead.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
Okay, So if people want to come and get a
job with corrections, check out our Corrections careers website.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
There's lots of opportunity, not just uniformed but.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Clinicians, so social workers, and also let's not forget our
community corrections, probation and parole offices. We have ten community
corrections offices around, sorry offices around the territory and about
two hundred community correction staff that do all sorts of
community based supervision and case management with offenders who've been
released from custody. It's a really great and rewarding career,
(21:57):
and all of that information is on our careers website.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
I really appreciate you both coming into the studio for
US this morning. Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley and new Deputy
Commissioner Orlanda Adams. Thank you, doctor Orlanda Adams. I should
say thank you so very much for your time this morning.
We appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Thank you, Kay, Thank you
We know that, as discussed earlier in the week, the
former youth detention center is set to be knocked down
a tender release this week for the demolition of that building.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
But we know the youth detention Center don Dale.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
That is currently being used it is going to be
repurposed for adult corrections and it's I guess it's a
bit for people to take in. We did discuss this
further this morning on the week that was and it
made it a little bit clearer. But joining me in
the studio this morning to talk a little bit more
about how our correctional facilities are currently tracking, but also
(00:32):
about the appointment of the new Deputy Commissioner. Well, joining
us in the studio right now is the Commissioner and
that is Matthew Varley.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Good morning to you.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Good morning Katie, and of.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Course we've got doctor Yolanda Adams and you are the
new Deputy Commissioner.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thanks so much for your time this morning.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Thank you, Kenny.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Now, Yolanda, we might go to you first. I know
that you've just stepped into the role and it is
really your first interview since become the Deputy commissioner.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
How is it all going I suppose.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
First off, Yeah, I'm so excited to be a part
of anti correctional services. I think it's a real opportunity
to be able to do something very different, and I'm
looking forward to being part of the neuroforms as we're
going forward.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, and look, I guess we know that at this
point in time, corrections is certainly a very busy place.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
There is no doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
But you've got a wealth of experience or a background
in clinical programs of fender services and a strategic and
practical At a strategic and practical level, but you've also
got expertise in growing our offender development, rehabilitation and reintegration capabilities.
And I think that for a lot of people listening
this morning, that's going to be a good.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Thing to hear.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Everybody understands that some people are going to need to
spend time in correctional facilities, but when they come out,
they want to make sure that they have got better
options that they're able to reintegrate into the community. So
how do you play to use that experience to sort
of hopefully make that happen.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
So I'm a professional psychologist registered for about twenty three
years I'm Alarikiir woman, so born and raised in Darwin
and very happy to be, as I said, working with corrections.
I guess my experience and expertise that I bring to
this position is icy is and valuable in terms of
how we shape our future programs, how we bring all
(02:26):
the pieces of the prisons together so that we can
have a model that is more contextualized for the population
in the Northern Territory. So, you know, we really want
to make sure that the programs that we develop are
really relevant to our highest numbers of prisoners Abrajeon Tasra,
all under people, So we want to make sure that
(02:48):
it's tailored to that population.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
And so then with your background obviously as a Lara
Kiir woman, but somebody who's born and raised in the
Northern Territory as well, I think that that's such a
huge thing. You're hoping that your background is you know,
is able to hopefully see some change in this space,
particularly when you talk about the high rates of incarceration
amongst original people in the end.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
To yeah, sure. So I come with a range of expertise,
so mental health.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I've worked in.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Corrections previously as a psychologist. I also come with some
international experience as well, so I've worked in the Canadian
correctional system as well as the healing lodges over there,
So there is some evidence based models out there already.
I've just recently gained my PhD and that was specifically
looking at anti prisons and around prison social climate. So,
(03:42):
you know, with all of that together and looking at
programs that are more relevant, it's about how do we
actually bring an evidence based model into programs with that
cultural lens around the design and the delivery of those programs.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
And how long have you been in the role currently,
Is it just a few.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Weeks it's coming up to three months?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, right, so it has been a little while, no
doubt you've hit the ground running. And have you sort
of seen anything that you're thinking to yourself straight away, Okay,
I'd like to make some in roads in this space.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Yeah, they sure is. So my responsibility is to oversee
operations directions. So what that means is community corrections, our
programs and also our custodial operations. So what I will
like to achieve or as a team is to actually
look at how we integrate all those three portfolio areas
(04:33):
so that we can work towards a model of rehabilitation
for our offenders to be able to successfully reintegrate back
into the community and hopefully to reduce those reciptivism rates.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, that's what everybody. That's what everybody really wants, isn't it.
When people do spend time in prison, you hope that
they're able to come out better humans and maybe even
armed with some skills to be able to reintegrate into
the community in a more effective way where you're actually contributing.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
To the community.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Commissioner, how are our numbers tracking at the moment in
our correctional facilities.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Katie, We remain full, we remain under pressure, and you know,
you and I've spoken about those numbers only a few
weeks ago. We have about six hundred and eighty in
Alice Springs and thirteen seventy this morning in Darwin, and
we have our t work camps that are at capacity,
so we are significantly under pressure and we've been juggling
(05:29):
those numbers, you know, every day. We have overflow into
those watchhouses that we've spoken about still and one of
the tricky pieces that we've been managing in the last
few weeks with corporation from police is also some prisoners
on remand being held into the Ala Springs Watchhouse, and
that is not a permanent solution.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
That's just something we're.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
Managing as we deal with admissions and discharges into the
main and Alur Springs facility.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So in terms of the numbers that we've got on
remand at the moment, how are those percentages looking, are
they still quite high?
Speaker 5 (06:00):
They are, They're about forty five to forty six percent
at the moment of our total population. So this morning
we have nine hundred and eighty two people on demand, Katie.
Now that's a lot. We're nudging that thousand figure. We
have two two hundred and forty eight prisoners in the
Northern Territory today. So as you can see, it's you
know a lot of people sitting on remand a lot
(06:21):
of people waiting their day in court, and those decisions
are made by judges and we hold those people until
their trial or their.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Court hearing dates.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
The challenges of course, as that number grows, that is
putting significant pressure right across our system.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
And so we know that that number has been growing.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
It's the single contributor, I suppose to our growth over
the last sort of twelve to eight eight months, and
we have had about three hundred more prisoners enter the
system in the last twenty or so months, and that's
really part of the pressure that we're dealing with that's
brought about these new changes for new facilities.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I mean, they're huge numbers of people on remand.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Are our numbers of people that are on remand comparatively
to other states, are they quite high or is that
something that you see in other places too?
Speaker 3 (07:07):
It varies.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
We see some commonalities with other jurisdictions. I was down
meeting with the WA and South Australian Commissioners for Corrections
only this week. Earlier this week, South Australia I think
is sitting around forty five to forty six percent too.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
It's something that some.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Jurisdictions most well, a few jurisdictions are the outliers, but
most jurisdictions have seen an uptick in Roman numbers since
the end of the pandemic YEP. I think there's a
whole range of factors behind that. But for us here
in the Northern Territory, the primary driver has been assault,
aggravated assault, domestic violence and alcohol related violence.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I mean, like it's real, it is a real worry
in terms of the numbers that we are saying. I
know that a lot of work is now happening to
really make sure that we've got further capacity for those prisoners.
We've got a few different modulars and things that were
coming online that I've think think you and I spoke
about last time.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
How theyre going currently.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
So they're under construction. The concrete's been poured for the foundations.
I saw that a week ago in Alice Springs. The
construction for those modulars is progressing. We're still on track
for those by midyear.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
The modulars are on site. So now the.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
Contractor is managing the groundworks and the foundations, and we
should start seeing those modulars hoisted over the fence and
dropped into position very soon.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And then when we talk about don Dale, it's going
to be coming online or repurpose for adult corrections. The
Chief Minister had said to us earlier in the week
that she is hoping that the new Youth Justice facility
is going to be up and running. I think it
was by the end of June, so that hopefully then
the old don Dale is able to be repurposed and
(08:48):
utilized rather quickly, hopefully for adult corrections. Do you have
a bit of an eta on when it will come online.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Well, as you've said, we expect Territory Families to vacate
that building by midyear. We're working with Dipple and architects
and engineers now on options.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
To upgrade that facility.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Let's remember that it was the old Beerham of prison before,
so you know we've had a look at it. I've
been in there, Docor Adams has been in there, some
of my team have been in there with Dipple, and
you might remember from my days at Territory Families I
was responsible for Youth Justice, so I know.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
The facility pretty well.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Our view is that it can be brought online as
a male sentenced prison reasonably quickly. Now there's some work
attached to security upgrades and some changes to the way
we want to run the site. I hope that we'd
be able to have that operational by the end of
the year.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah. Right, So what are those changes that you're hoping
to sort of have so that you are able to
utilize it in the way that you're wanting to.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
So, for example, the first thing we're going to do
is do a top to bottom security assessment. The custody
of adult prisoners is slightly different to children, and we
have a range of measures that our team will go
in and assess pretty soon. Also, we're going to look
at things so, for example, we want to make sure
(10:11):
that we can self sustain our prisoner population in there,
so we put some men in there to do their
programs and their education and their skills training. We want
them to be able to cook, we want them to
be able to clean, we want them to make sure
that they've got the right common areas available. Now, the
way in which the children's facility runs is different to
the way we would run it. Yeah, so our job
will be to make sure we've got those facilities right
(10:34):
for our adult prisoners. For example, you know, the children
in there don't cook their own meals. Our prisoners do.
So there's things like that.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
We can do and things like that.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I mean, for adult corrections, you would think absolutely should
be happening right if they're able to be self sufficient
and operational. I think that that is absolutely the way
that a lot of people listening would hope that it
is going on.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
Well, that's right, and you know, all of our current sites,
the two prisons and the two work camps have kitchens.
Our prisoners will work in those kitchens, those laundries and
those other integral facilities every day. Darwin Correctional Center Katie
has a massive industrial kitchen. We churn out over three
thousand meals a day wow.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
And again rightly, so you know, if it can be
self sufficient and the prisoners are able to do that,
that is absolutely what should be happening.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Absolutely right.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
And you know we have prisoners engaged in employment right
across the prison. It's not often spoken about and it's
not well publicized. We think we can do better in
that regard. But you know, that's part of our new
arrangement with Charles Darwin UNI as well, is you know,
not only are they working, but they're getting skills and
quals as well while they're in there, so people can
do you know, certificates in.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Hospitality and catering.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
We have people who do certificates in woodworking and other
metalworking skills. And we have a very active industries portfolio
as well, so we have workshops where people can gain
those trade skills. Now, part of this government's instruction to
me is that they want to see those industries facility
is upgraded and improved over time, and that's also part
(12:03):
of the review we'll be doing in the next financial year.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Okay, so it does sound like there's a bit of
work to get under way, can I ask, as World Commissioner.
I know that there had been some discussion a little
earlier this morning, in fact, on the week that was
about the current adult corrections here in Darwin, about whether
the damage that was caused I think it was actually
I can't remember exactly what it was that right, that
happened a little while back, Whether that has now been
(12:26):
fixed yep.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
So the building you're talking about there, Katie, is what
we refer to as Sector two into the Darwin Correctional Center.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Now that's code for.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
A building that is designated at our programs, education and
office administration block. It's right smack bang in the middle
of the Darwen Prison and it operates almost as kind
of like a crossroads from a range of the prison
accommodation sectors and the prisoners move along those pathways to
Sector two and they come in there for their programs
and their education classes.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It's not an accommodation block.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
I just want to make that really clear, and it
also encompasses something we call movement control, which is our
centralized harb I spose for prisoners moving around the prison.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
That occurred are the.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
Right you're referring to, occurred in May twenty twenty. The
construction has been well progressed. In fact, I saw it
the other day. We expect that building to be back
online by end of financial year.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
It's ready to go.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Okay, So is it having any impact in terms of
some of the programs being delivered with that area still
being under construction, Yeah, it.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Has, and that's something we've been working around for a
few years now. Obviously, we installed some temporary classrooms in
other parts.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Of the facility.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
It's not been ideal and it has slowed us down,
and that's why you see some of our program numbers
have been under pressure the last couple of years.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
We've been quite open about that.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
But that facility has been an eighteen month reconstruction project.
It will be basically well has been basically gutted and
it'll be rebuilt and it's expected to be back online
by the middle of the year.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
End of financial year, which is a good thing. I
think if you can get those programs back, were able
to be utilized in those locations, and as you've said,
some of those numbers obviously having to change over time.
Now tell me in terms of the old Behmer prison
or the current don Dale coming online and being something
that Adult Corrections is able to utilize over the coming months,
(14:20):
how big an impact is that going to have when
you talk about the prisoner numbers that we currently have,
and when you talk about different programs being able to
be undertaken, but also when you talk about I suppose
appropriateness for both our male and female prisoners to have
space yeap.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
So it's going to have a significant change impact for us,
but it's part of a much bigger jigsaw puzzle CADI.
So the announcement last week was a whole range of
infrastructure works for Corrections, including the establishment of the don
Dale Center as a male skills training and education center
and also the establishment of those two new women's facilities.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Now, when we.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Look at all of the jigsaw pieces and we put
all of those parts together, we think that that will
create a knock on effect and a creation effect of
about three hundred and fifty extra male beds.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Now, let me walk you through that.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
We think the don Dale site can be converted to
a male facility, you know, around about one hundred to
one hundred and ten beds pretty quickly, and that's without
you know, further expansion work. So just using the existing buildings,
we think we can accommodate up to about one hundred
and ten men pretty quick. Now, what that does is
(15:37):
also works with the female system. And currently, and this
is really important, currently our female prisoners are held within
a subset of the larger male prisons, both in Darwin
and Alas. That has a whole range of knock on
effects to how we are able to support women in
custody and provide services to them. And ultimately they're confined
(15:57):
in a much smaller zone and the new women's facilities
will give them their own space and their own facilities
and the ability to move more freely. And then adjunct
to that, Dr Adams and her team are going to
be looking at how we create customized programs for women
right now. The bit that has the knock on jigsaw
puzzle effect is when we move women out of Darwin
(16:20):
and Alice Springs prison we can obviously take over their
zones for extra men's spaces and that's where we come
up with another one hundred and fifty odd male beds,
both in Darwin and alyis so somewhere in the vicinity
of my apologies, somewhere in the vicinity of three hundred
and fifty male beds we think we can generate plus
the new women's beds.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
How big an impact is that going to have? When
you look at the it seems like we've got ballooning
numbers of prisoners right now.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
So our prison numbers have increased substantially in the last
two years, and obviously we look at our projections really closely.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Now.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
The bit that I can't control, Katie, obviously is you know,
the decisions of courts and what's going on out in
community that ultimately sends people to jail. Right, But when
you look at the projections, and if we weren't to
do these strategies, we're already at maximum capacity. So I
don't want to think about what the numbers tell me
in the next eighteen months. If we didn't do this,
(17:19):
we would be in trouble, seriously in trouble. So this
is common sense, This makes practical sense, and it's the quickest,
cheapest way I think, instead of if we were going
to go and build a new prison. I'd be in
a three to five year construction window out more money.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, and that's the thing, you know, it does seem
and I know there's been discussion about whether it's a
backflip and you know, and that kind of thing. But
at the end of the day, we need that space
for prisoners. We do need to make sure that we've
got somewhere for them to be able to go when
we've got such high rates of crime at this point.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
That's right, Katie.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
And at the end of the day, the Dondale facility
obviously is with controversy, right, I get that. But for me,
my job for Territorians is to make sure you know,
when people come to custody, I've got a safe and
secure place to put them. I think that's what Territorians
would expect to me. Whilst they're there, we want to
make sure they're given the rehabilitation services, the education, the programs,
(18:16):
the skills to take changes in their life. But I
can't do that without the right space.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
In terms of then the operating budget that you have
sort of every year, though, is it going to make
a big difference to you. You've got all of these
additional beds coming online. And I know that you can
only really do what you can do within the budget
that you're given. But in terms of the operating budget,
I would imagine that those increased prisoner numbers are the
increased facilities and that are required.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
It is going to have an impact.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
It will have an impact on our budget.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
But obviously we've been putting our case to government over
the last two years and I've been you know, listen
to To be fair, we will have gone from a
two one hundred and twenty odd million dollar budget two
odd years ago to two hundred and ninety odd million
dollars from one July. So it's a seventy million dollar
increase that allows us to get on with recruiting more staff,
(19:11):
providing more.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Services, and of course prisoners cost money to hold.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
You know, we obviously have to pay for food, clothing
and other services. But you know, I don't think this
is the end of the story. This is a growth
phase for Corrections and my job is to make sure
I'm using that resource profile to best effect, giving territorians
the service that they expect for the safety of the community,
and recruiting more staff.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
And that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Dr Adams we touched on just a moment ago, or
the commissioner touched on just a moment ago, some of
those programs in for our female prisoners.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
What you know, what are.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
You sort of looking at doing in terms of those
female prisoners, particularly if they dow have I guess a
bit more of their own space in those coming months.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
What we're really trying to achieve, Katie, is is having
fit for purpose model of programs and services that we
deliver for women. We know that women enter prison with
higher mental health needs, histories of domestic violence and trauma.
So what we want to do is make sure that
(20:15):
we design programs that are evidence based, and what I
mean by that is that we will actually consult with
key stacles in the community as well as the women
themselves around what those programs might look like in an
effort to be able to deliver programs that are, like
I said, developed within a local context and that really
(20:36):
looks at the underlying causes of offending. Just lastly, before
I let you both go, how are we looking in
terms of those staffing numbers? You know, it's something that
recruitment has been at the four for you for quite
some time.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Commissioner. How those numbers looking look?
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Where always recruiting, Katie.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
You might remember when we spoke a couple of weeks ago,
we had the pleasure of swearing in about fifty one
new coreational officers month.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
We have new.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
Courses scheduled i'd say in the next month or so.
We're continuing to recruit experience correction offices from interstate and
New Zealand. And you know we are working hard to
recruit clinicians, social workers and psychologists as well. We're a
bit over one thousand staff now, Katie. This new budget
announcement sets the scene for another ninety new staff will.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Recruit in the year ahead.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
Okay, So if people want to come and get a
job with corrections, check out our Corrections careers website.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
There's lots of opportunity, not just uniformed but.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Clinicians, so social workers, and also let's not forget our
community corrections, probation and parole offices. We have ten community
corrections offices around, sorry offices around the territory and about
two hundred community correction staff that do all sorts of
community based supervision and case management with offenders who've been
released from custody. It's a really great and rewarding career,
(21:57):
and all of that information is on our careers website.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
I really appreciate you both coming into the studio for
US this morning. Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley and new Deputy
Commissioner Orlanda Adams. Thank you, doctor Orlanda Adams. I should
say thank you so very much for your time this morning.
We appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Thank you, Kay, Thank you
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