Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We will due to catch up with the Speaker Robin Lamley,
just having some issues getting in contact with her. I
can only assume that something's come up there in Parliament
on this day.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
When legislation is going to be introduced.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Well, a lot of legislation, in fact, a lot of
it aimed at reducing crime. And we know that one
thing that does seem certain is that as some of
these law changes in some areas come into play, we
could see an increase in prisoner numbers. Now earlier in
the week, I read an extensive email from a corrections
(00:32):
officer about some really serious issues of safety, staffing levels
and security. The worker was prompted to go public as
the result of a really bad incident in the last
four weeks.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
That incident saw three prisoners, this person says, involved in
an unprovoked assault on an officer. One prisoner coward punched
the officer to the ground, which rendered him semi unconscious.
Another prisoner saw an opportunity to run up soccer kick
him in the head, once again unprovoked an opportunistic The
(01:07):
officer was knocked out cold for around forty to fifty seconds.
Prisoners well, a prisoner who kicked the officer in the head,
then around around, kicking and hitting as many officers as
he could during that incident. That is what we have
been told by a correctional officer. Now joining me on
the line to speak a little bit more about some
(01:28):
of the claims that have been made and some of
the issues around staffing and overcrowding at the prison is
the head of the United Workers Union, Erina Early. Good
morning to you, Erina.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Morning, Katie, hell are you you're really good?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Thank you so much for your time this morning, and
thanks for joining me a couple of minutes early. Now,
Erina the whistleblower has provided some pretty horrific detail of
an assault which occurred in the last month. As I
touched on there where a correctional officer.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Was knocked out. Are you aware of that incident?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yes, I am aware of that one, Katie.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Eron. Just how bad was that incident where where this
correctional officer was knocked out and kicked in the head.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
It was pretty bad. More of the view that any
asault on correctional officers are serious. It is a sad
situation that it is happening a bit more regularly than
it was before. Unfortunately, not all of them can be
shared with the public because we do have to worry
(02:35):
about the security of the prison because people hear about
these assaults and it could then also entice further assaults
as well, So that's why sometimes they're not shared with
the public.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I guess it's reached the point at the moment where
some whistleblowers are coming to us because they are at
their wits ends. They are feeling like they're not safe
at work.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Oh, absolutely, Katie. To be honest that our members, the
correctional officers, a lot of them are broken. They are
quite disillusioned about their safety in the workplace. There is
that big fear is they can't control the growing numbers
that are happening that are coming into the prison because
there is a big focus on the current government about
(03:26):
law and order and looking at addressing the crime problems
within the Northern Territory, and when that happens, you're going
to have more and more people going to be going
into correction services.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Now eron, I just going back to that assault from
what I'm told. With that situation, normally the offending prisoners,
so basically two of those prisoners were apparently involved in
the assault as well, about four weeks prior they attempted
to light their cells on fire. They did a number
of other things, And this person tells, normally this situation,
(04:01):
in this situation, the offender prisoning lighting fires in their cells,
they'd be placed on a four stage management plan. But
for some reason some of this isn't happening. Is that
something that's being raised with you?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Absolutely that is correct information that you received.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Erina, How is this possible?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Like, how are we in a situation then within our
correctional facilities where where prisoners can assault prison guards to
that degree and then not go on some kind of
management plan.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
It's absolutely insane, Katie. And the stuff that international we're
getting back from correctional officers members is that this bad
behavior is not being they're not being punished for their
behavior and stuff there. There's no consequences at all, and
that's where the correctional office still they're being let down,
(04:53):
especially by the middle management side of correction They're not
getting that support.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Erin, talk me through you.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Know what some of the concerns are and the issues
that are being raised with the union at the moment
over you know, over things not really being passed on
or passed through middle management.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
So I think the main things that we're having we're
finding from correctional officers is so you've got the assaults,
that's that's a big issue there. They feel that there's
no redress for those prisoners and then officers need to
once you are assaulted, go back into back behind the
walls and have to be present with these prisoners. Is
(05:35):
that's the fear that this person they could be assaulted again.
Also too, there's concerns about work health and safety issues
which you've got your overcrowding, you've got your short star seeing,
and certain other issues which are more about the security
of the prison that aren't being addressed and they're not
(05:57):
being addressed quick enough.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, I do want to talk about that security of
the prison and obviously not wanting to put our prison
guards in any dangerous situation, but are there prisoners who
are medium security being housed in areas which may not
be safe for the wider community i e.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Not high enough security.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yes, it's always been an issue that we've addressed with corrections.
It's something that we've been dealing with for over a
decade that there's concerned. So your correctional officers, your officers
who are actually behind the walls, who your grassroots, have
always expressed concerns that certain prisoners aren't in the correct
basically not in the correct sentence management, they're in the
(06:37):
wrong levels. And so we've always had these robust conversations Kadi,
and you'll have management or have different views.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
But Aaron, what could that mean for the wider community?
I mean, could it mean that we are in a
situation where prisoners are more easily able to escape if
that's what they intend to do well?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
It could be that could be one of the issues there.
But usually when you have skates, they're usually a sign
of an overstretched prison system, which could be having basic
the wrong sentence management. It could be the short staffing,
it could be the overcrowding. It's a workhelf in safety,
all of those types of issues, and that's where you
(07:23):
get this skate.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Do we have enough staff at the moment to be
able to keep those staff safe, you know, like and
other prisoners as well.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
We'll have the moment. So forgive example, Darwin, so they're
roughly about sixteen officers short today, Alice Springs, they're roughly
about twenty five officers short today, So I know, Corrections
are actively trying to recruit, so they're recruiting, but then
people are leaving as well, so you're you know what
(07:54):
I mean, you're always trying to catch up at the moment.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Are some of those new recruits leaving because they don't
feel safe?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Some of that that has been a factor that has
been identified to the union. We did have some members
who are upset about the underpayment which was mentioned that
you brought up the other day from that correctional officer.
Also to some of their families don't like the Northern territory,
so there's pressure on them to leave. Some people wasn't
(08:26):
the expectation that they thought of when they were coming
to Corrections. So yeah, there's all these different factors. Some
people can't find housing as well, so yeah, these are
all different things that people have left.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
How big an impact is the use of the watch
house having as well? Or you know, like I know
we don't have enough room, but how big an impact
is that use of the watch house having?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
It is having some impact with our officers, Kadi, because
it's not the ideal situation. Officers know that you know
that they're not wanted in those watchouses. The police want
the watchouse is back. Corrections would rather have a properly
resourced prison where they actually can put these prisoners in.
(09:11):
So it is having some impact, especially in Alice Springs
and here in the Palmerston Watchhouse. But I know from
our discussions with Corrections Commissioner this moving the watchhouses and
finding better ones is a priority for them.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Erin, I mean, what from your perspective, what are the
biggest concerns right now for our correctional officers.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Biggest concerns is coming home safe each day is definitely one.
The overcrowding is as we know that the current government
are going to be implementing from new legislation, they're not
going to be able to control that and that's not
going to help with the numbers that are going to
come through corrections. So you've got that, Okay, what's going
(09:58):
to happen? You know, we could have another forty point
in tomorrow, we could have another twenty pill in tomorrow.
The current corrections system can not have all these prisoners
in there. We just don't have the availability.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
And so like, what are the options at this point
in time?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Are there other facilities, other areas from what you understand,
that are going potentially to potentially.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Be looked at.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
So according to the Commission of Corrections, and we've met
with him this week and we've been meeting quite regularly
with the Commission, and his executedive is they are looking
at bigger picture things and interim ones as well. We've
heard about the Burma Center, so that that is an
intra measure at the moment. Supposedly there's going to be
(10:45):
some announcements probably within the next week, Kaiti. Yeah, once
that's been approved by the Minister, that they'll be able
to share with the union, our members and then also
the public about looking at some other measures to deal
with corrections.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So where to from here from your perspective, I mean, obviously,
you know, the union represents some of these correctional officers
and you're not running you know, like you're not running
the correctional facilities that comes down to the department. But
where to from here from your perspective to try to
ensure that our correctional officers can go to work and
(11:23):
come home safely.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Okay, So that's a good question there, Katie. So our
union represents all correctional officers, except for the chief. So
basically where to from here with our members. They want
to continue with these open and transparent discussions with the
Commissioner and his executive because if we're having that information,
(11:47):
we can have it flow down to our correctional officers.
We need to ensure that the safety of our correctional
officers is a priority for corrections because if our correctional
officers are safe, then the prison prisoners are faith and
then the territory engines faith as well. We need to
ensure that we need to have a bit of priority
(12:09):
on the toxic workplace, which was mentioned by that officer
to the other day Kadi, because we are having issues
with workplace fulling, we've got fatigue management, all of so
pretigue management, all of these type of things impact the
toxicity of a workplace, so that's important for them.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Well, I'm even told this morning that you know that
there is stuff happening now behind the scenes to try
and identify this whistle blob, which I think is quite appalling.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
You know, the fact that.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Someone's come to the media to raise these concerns is
absolutely fair enough. And then you know to hear this
morning that behind the scenes, within the you know, within
the correctional facility somehow people are trying to find out
who has actually come forward. You know, to me, we
need to actually be able to raise concerns with the
(13:01):
media when you reach a point where you're no longer
feeling safe.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Absolutely, Katie, And if there is true Katie and Corrections
do go after this officer. He will probably be a
member of ours and our union will do everything we
can to ensure the protection of our member in regards
to that, because everyone has the right to be able
to express their concerns, and that person had serious concerns
which are not just their concerns, their concerns of the
(13:27):
union movement and their concerns of all the officers they're
at Corrections as well.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, good now, Erina.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
I mean, like you've spoken to me before about your
concerns within our correctional facilities and making sure that those
officers are safe. How do you reckon like in terms
of the new legislation that's being introduced and the fact
that you know, I mean, the reality is we are
probably going to see more people locked up. How difficult
do you think that's going to be to manage?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I think initially it probably will be difficult, Katie, because
we know that the government wants the law and order focused,
so there's going to be a lot of resource towards police.
But when you're dealing with law and order, it's not
just about police, it's about the court. It's about making
sure that they've got the best legal resources too. And
(14:15):
then most significantly too is corrections because that's where people
are going to end up, so we need to ensure
that they do have the correct resourcing, which includes the infrastructure.
It includes having enough staffing, not just correctional officers, but
you're non custodial as well, because they're at support. Very
good support network for correctional officers as well. So there's
(14:39):
a lot that just comes from locking more people up.
There's a huge flow on effect.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Well erin early, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Thank you for having a chat with us, and no
doubt we'll talk to you again soon. I hope that
you know the issues that have been raised around safety.
That is first and foremost my biggest con for any
frontline worker.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Oh absolutely, Katie would completely agree with you there.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, thanks so much for having a chat with me
this morning. Always appreciate your time Thanks Katie, you have
a great day you too, Thank you
We will due to catch up with the Speaker Robin Lamley,
just having some issues getting in contact with her. I
can only assume that something's come up there in Parliament
on this day.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
When legislation is going to be introduced.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Well, a lot of legislation, in fact, a lot of
it aimed at reducing crime. And we know that one
thing that does seem certain is that as some of
these law changes in some areas come into play, we
could see an increase in prisoner numbers. Now earlier in
the week, I read an extensive email from a corrections
(00:32):
officer about some really serious issues of safety, staffing levels
and security. The worker was prompted to go public as
the result of a really bad incident in the last
four weeks.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
That incident saw three prisoners, this person says, involved in
an unprovoked assault on an officer. One prisoner coward punched
the officer to the ground, which rendered him semi unconscious.
Another prisoner saw an opportunity to run up soccer kick
him in the head, once again unprovoked an opportunistic The
(01:07):
officer was knocked out cold for around forty to fifty seconds.
Prisoners well, a prisoner who kicked the officer in the head,
then around around, kicking and hitting as many officers as
he could during that incident. That is what we have
been told by a correctional officer. Now joining me on
the line to speak a little bit more about some
(01:28):
of the claims that have been made and some of
the issues around staffing and overcrowding at the prison is
the head of the United Workers Union, Erina Early. Good
morning to you, Erina.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Morning, Katie, hell are you you're really good?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Thank you so much for your time this morning, and
thanks for joining me a couple of minutes early. Now,
Erina the whistleblower has provided some pretty horrific detail of
an assault which occurred in the last month. As I
touched on there where a correctional officer.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Was knocked out. Are you aware of that incident?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yes, I am aware of that one, Katie.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Eron. Just how bad was that incident where where this
correctional officer was knocked out and kicked in the head.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
It was pretty bad. More of the view that any
asault on correctional officers are serious. It is a sad
situation that it is happening a bit more regularly than
it was before. Unfortunately, not all of them can be
shared with the public because we do have to worry
(02:35):
about the security of the prison because people hear about
these assaults and it could then also entice further assaults
as well, So that's why sometimes they're not shared with
the public.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I guess it's reached the point at the moment where
some whistleblowers are coming to us because they are at
their wits ends. They are feeling like they're not safe
at work.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Oh, absolutely, Katie. To be honest that our members, the
correctional officers, a lot of them are broken. They are
quite disillusioned about their safety in the workplace. There is
that big fear is they can't control the growing numbers
that are happening that are coming into the prison because
there is a big focus on the current government about
(03:26):
law and order and looking at addressing the crime problems
within the Northern Territory, and when that happens, you're going
to have more and more people going to be going
into correction services.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Now eron, I just going back to that assault from
what I'm told. With that situation, normally the offending prisoners,
so basically two of those prisoners were apparently involved in
the assault as well, about four weeks prior they attempted
to light their cells on fire. They did a number
of other things, And this person tells, normally this situation,
(04:01):
in this situation, the offender prisoning lighting fires in their cells,
they'd be placed on a four stage management plan. But
for some reason some of this isn't happening. Is that
something that's being raised with you?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Absolutely that is correct information that you received.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Erina, How is this possible?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Like, how are we in a situation then within our
correctional facilities where where prisoners can assault prison guards to
that degree and then not go on some kind of
management plan.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
It's absolutely insane, Katie. And the stuff that international we're
getting back from correctional officers members is that this bad
behavior is not being they're not being punished for their
behavior and stuff there. There's no consequences at all, and
that's where the correctional office still they're being let down,
(04:53):
especially by the middle management side of correction They're not
getting that support.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Erin, talk me through you.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Know what some of the concerns are and the issues
that are being raised with the union at the moment
over you know, over things not really being passed on
or passed through middle management.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
So I think the main things that we're having we're
finding from correctional officers is so you've got the assaults,
that's that's a big issue there. They feel that there's
no redress for those prisoners and then officers need to
once you are assaulted, go back into back behind the
walls and have to be present with these prisoners. Is
(05:35):
that's the fear that this person they could be assaulted again.
Also too, there's concerns about work health and safety issues
which you've got your overcrowding, you've got your short star seeing,
and certain other issues which are more about the security
of the prison that aren't being addressed and they're not
(05:57):
being addressed quick enough.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, I do want to talk about that security of
the prison and obviously not wanting to put our prison
guards in any dangerous situation, but are there prisoners who
are medium security being housed in areas which may not
be safe for the wider community i e.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Not high enough security.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yes, it's always been an issue that we've addressed with corrections.
It's something that we've been dealing with for over a
decade that there's concerned. So your correctional officers, your officers
who are actually behind the walls, who your grassroots, have
always expressed concerns that certain prisoners aren't in the correct
basically not in the correct sentence management, they're in the
(06:37):
wrong levels. And so we've always had these robust conversations Kadi,
and you'll have management or have different views.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
But Aaron, what could that mean for the wider community?
I mean, could it mean that we are in a
situation where prisoners are more easily able to escape if
that's what they intend to do well?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
It could be that could be one of the issues there.
But usually when you have skates, they're usually a sign
of an overstretched prison system, which could be having basic
the wrong sentence management. It could be the short staffing,
it could be the overcrowding. It's a workhelf in safety,
all of those types of issues, and that's where you
(07:23):
get this skate.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Do we have enough staff at the moment to be
able to keep those staff safe, you know, like and
other prisoners as well.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
We'll have the moment. So forgive example, Darwin, so they're
roughly about sixteen officers short today, Alice Springs, they're roughly
about twenty five officers short today, So I know, Corrections
are actively trying to recruit, so they're recruiting, but then
people are leaving as well, so you're you know what
(07:54):
I mean, you're always trying to catch up at the moment.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Are some of those new recruits leaving because they don't
feel safe?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Some of that that has been a factor that has
been identified to the union. We did have some members
who are upset about the underpayment which was mentioned that
you brought up the other day from that correctional officer.
Also to some of their families don't like the Northern territory,
so there's pressure on them to leave. Some people wasn't
(08:26):
the expectation that they thought of when they were coming
to Corrections. So yeah, there's all these different factors. Some
people can't find housing as well, so yeah, these are
all different things that people have left.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
How big an impact is the use of the watch
house having as well? Or you know, like I know
we don't have enough room, but how big an impact
is that use of the watch house having?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
It is having some impact with our officers, Kadi, because
it's not the ideal situation. Officers know that you know
that they're not wanted in those watchouses. The police want
the watchouse is back. Corrections would rather have a properly
resourced prison where they actually can put these prisoners in.
(09:11):
So it is having some impact, especially in Alice Springs
and here in the Palmerston Watchhouse. But I know from
our discussions with Corrections Commissioner this moving the watchhouses and
finding better ones is a priority for them.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Erin, I mean, what from your perspective, what are the
biggest concerns right now for our correctional officers.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Biggest concerns is coming home safe each day is definitely one.
The overcrowding is as we know that the current government
are going to be implementing from new legislation, they're not
going to be able to control that and that's not
going to help with the numbers that are going to
come through corrections. So you've got that, Okay, what's going
(09:58):
to happen? You know, we could have another forty point
in tomorrow, we could have another twenty pill in tomorrow.
The current corrections system can not have all these prisoners
in there. We just don't have the availability.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
And so like, what are the options at this point
in time?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Are there other facilities, other areas from what you understand,
that are going potentially to potentially.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Be looked at.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
So according to the Commission of Corrections, and we've met
with him this week and we've been meeting quite regularly
with the Commission, and his executedive is they are looking
at bigger picture things and interim ones as well. We've
heard about the Burma Center, so that that is an
intra measure at the moment. Supposedly there's going to be
(10:45):
some announcements probably within the next week, Kaiti. Yeah, once
that's been approved by the Minister, that they'll be able
to share with the union, our members and then also
the public about looking at some other measures to deal
with corrections.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So where to from here from your perspective, I mean, obviously,
you know, the union represents some of these correctional officers
and you're not running you know, like you're not running
the correctional facilities that comes down to the department. But
where to from here from your perspective to try to
ensure that our correctional officers can go to work and
(11:23):
come home safely.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Okay, So that's a good question there, Katie. So our
union represents all correctional officers, except for the chief. So
basically where to from here with our members. They want
to continue with these open and transparent discussions with the
Commissioner and his executive because if we're having that information,
(11:47):
we can have it flow down to our correctional officers.
We need to ensure that the safety of our correctional
officers is a priority for corrections because if our correctional
officers are safe, then the prison prisoners are faith and
then the territory engines faith as well. We need to
ensure that we need to have a bit of priority
(12:09):
on the toxic workplace, which was mentioned by that officer
to the other day Kadi, because we are having issues
with workplace fulling, we've got fatigue management, all of so
pretigue management, all of these type of things impact the
toxicity of a workplace, so that's important for them.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Well, I'm even told this morning that you know that
there is stuff happening now behind the scenes to try
and identify this whistle blob, which I think is quite appalling.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
You know, the fact that.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Someone's come to the media to raise these concerns is
absolutely fair enough. And then you know to hear this
morning that behind the scenes, within the you know, within
the correctional facility somehow people are trying to find out
who has actually come forward. You know, to me, we
need to actually be able to raise concerns with the
(13:01):
media when you reach a point where you're no longer
feeling safe.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Absolutely, Katie, And if there is true Katie and Corrections
do go after this officer. He will probably be a
member of ours and our union will do everything we
can to ensure the protection of our member in regards
to that, because everyone has the right to be able
to express their concerns, and that person had serious concerns
which are not just their concerns, their concerns of the
(13:27):
union movement and their concerns of all the officers they're
at Corrections as well.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, good now, Erina.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
I mean, like you've spoken to me before about your
concerns within our correctional facilities and making sure that those
officers are safe. How do you reckon like in terms
of the new legislation that's being introduced and the fact
that you know, I mean, the reality is we are
probably going to see more people locked up. How difficult
do you think that's going to be to manage?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I think initially it probably will be difficult, Katie, because
we know that the government wants the law and order focused,
so there's going to be a lot of resource towards police.
But when you're dealing with law and order, it's not
just about police, it's about the court. It's about making
sure that they've got the best legal resources too. And
(14:15):
then most significantly too is corrections because that's where people
are going to end up, so we need to ensure
that they do have the correct resourcing, which includes the infrastructure.
It includes having enough staffing, not just correctional officers, but
you're non custodial as well, because they're at support. Very
good support network for correctional officers as well. So there's
(14:39):
a lot that just comes from locking more people up.
There's a huge flow on effect.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Well erin early, I really appreciate your time this morning.
Thank you for having a chat with us, and no
doubt we'll talk to you again soon. I hope that
you know the issues that have been raised around safety.
That is first and foremost my biggest con for any
frontline worker.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Oh absolutely, Katie would completely agree with you there.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, thanks so much for having a chat with me
this morning. Always appreciate your time Thanks Katie, you have
a great day you too, Thank you
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