Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We know that prison staff are threatening to walk off
the job today with concerns that a number of emergency
actions by the Corrections Department are going to jeopardize staff
safety and potentially lead to rioting. The emergency measures, which
include moving thirty eight prisoners from Alice Springs to Darwin
Correctional Center, is in response to a rapid and continual
(00:21):
surge in prisoner numbers across the Northern Territory's correctional facilities
and indeed the watch houses. Now we spoke to Nathan
Finn about the impact on those watch houses earlier today.
Joining me on the line right now is the United
Workers Union's NT secretary, Erina Early. Good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Erina, Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Now, Erina, are we going to see correction staff walk
off the job?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It is highly likely over the next forty hour hours.
We're assessing the situation talking to our legal but it's
definitely something that is a realistic thing that could occur.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So how soon will you decide? I don't know, you
said they're forty eight hours, but what are you sort
of keeping an eye on before you firm that up.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
We're still having discussions with the Commissioner or so too.
We need to have those instructions from our members as well,
so we need to ensure that they are a comfortable
walking out as well. But the information we're getting so
far from our members is they want to walk. They're
not feeling safe the correction so.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
They want to walk off the job. Erin, I mean,
you and I have spoken actually a few times over
the last couple of weeks after we were contacted by
a whistleblower saying that stuff do not feel safe after
somebody was knocked out. A correctional worker was knocked out
just a few weeks ago. By the sounds of it,
the numbers are continuing to grow. Look, I'm not surprised
(01:48):
that they're really quite annoyed at this point.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Ah, they are there. I think it's beyond annoyed as well, Katie.
It is that genuine fear. I went to the prison
yesterday in Darwi and it was like eerily quiet. So
I don't know if you've ever been to the prison,
but it's loud, you know, these all these people talking
and stuff like that. It was a deathly silence. And
I actually mentioned that to the officers and they said, yeah,
(02:13):
this is the scary part and they genuinely were saying
to me yesterday they feel there is a riot or
a large scale incident going to occur very soon.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I mean, that is a real worry. I think, first
and foremost, you want to make sure that everybody working
inside those facilities is safe. You know, you want to
make sure that you know that the prisoners that are
doing the right thing are safe as well. You want
to make sure that everybody's safe. It's it sounds like
a very concerning situation right now.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh, it is is really concerning, and I actually feel
very scared for my members. They are working hard, they're
putting a brave face on. They just don't know if
they're going to come home each day now.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So erin a next twenty four hour you're going to
wait and see, or next forty eight hours, I guess
waiting to just keep an eye on things, I know.
The Commissioner has directed a number of different emergency actions,
including placing ten extra prisoners into the Darwin Police Watchhouse,
increasing Sector ten of the Darwin Correctional Center by twenty prisoners,
(03:19):
increasing the Alas Springs Reintegration Facility by an additional twenty prisoners,
the transferral of all those female prisoners from Alice Springs
to Darwin as a temporary measure. Are these things going
to help?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Well, the thing is you're just transferring or or increasing
prisoner numbers. The thing is, Katie, they're not increasing the
correctional officers. And this is the issue everyone keeps talking about.
This is a critical thing about prison numbers. The critical
thing is we don't have enough correctional officers to deal
with these increased numbers. And we haven't even started introducing
(03:57):
the new government's legislation yet.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
All right, because I know, I understand that you've spoken
to the ABC a little bit earlier today and said
that it felt that you know that those legislative changes
were having an impact. I mean, we spoke to Nathan
f In a bit earlier this morning. You said it
was a bit too early for that to be the case.
I mean, you'd have to I mean, you would have
to agree that. To put it really bluntly, the current
government has inherited a bit of a shit show.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Oh look absolutely. But what I'm saying, Katie, is all
the stuff about increased prisoners, this is part of management's job,
the executive of correction. So regardless of what government in
governments in they have to risk mitigate this and this
hasn't been done. And this is what my delegates, my members,
(04:44):
the health and faifety representatives have all been saying for
years and years. There is no continuously paying for a
large scale riots or incident or for increase numb prisoner
numbers has not existed. And now this is where we
are in trouble now.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So where we're at right now, and you know the
concern around a riot, the concern around correctional service numbers.
What is there anything that could be happening right now
aside from what the Commissioner has already announced, Eerin from
your perspective, is there anything that could be happening right
(05:21):
now to try to calm this situation down.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I think what we need to do, Katie, is ensure
that we've got the risk assessments on all these changes
because they weren't in place and Friday, they weren't even drafted.
The union and the Health and Safety Reps had to
demand that under the Work Health and Safety legislation. But
we need to be sitting down with the Commissioner and saying, Okay,
(05:45):
where can we put more officers? Where can we get
more officers. We've got officers, you know, we've got community corrections,
we've got chief correctional officers, we've got duty deputy superintendent.
They need to be coming on the floor as well. Yep,
that's the extra thirty or forty officers, right, So.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Get that middle management, get all that of the mob
in on the ground. Yeah, do you reckon they're going
to do that?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I don't know that. We need to have those discussions
and we're not having them.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah. Right, So that's really what staff are looking for
right now. They are waiting to see whether that is
something that happens over the next twenty four hours or so.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Absolutely, and that's real leadership there. That's what they're looking for.
They're looking for a direction to say everybody's then it's
not just coming from correctional officers who are worried about
their safety. We're putting everybody in. Every person, every correction
officer will be working while we deal with this erina.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
If that industrial action is taken and if we wind
up in a situation where correctional stuff do walk off
the job in protest of what is going on, what
happens with the prisoners, do they do they go into lockdown.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
That's usually a process that will be the decision of
the Commission of Ali but that's usually what happens.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And how long could a could that strike action last.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well under the will be under the workhelse and fafety yet,
because that's where members are concerned about their safety at work.
It could it could go for an hour, it could
go it could go for days.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
What do you reckon it should like, how long do
you reckon it should go for until.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
They've actually got increased correctional officer numbers where they sell
safe to go back to work.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah. Right, So, by the sounds of it, from what
you're saying to me this morning, the immediate thing that
could happen to increase those numbers of guards and of
those correctional officers on the ground, you know, in the
prisons right now or in those correctional facilities right now,
it is to get middle management into some of those
operational roles assisting absolutely now, Erina, you know, I think
(07:56):
the biggest concern at the moment, and we've touched on
this already, but biggest concern is we do not want
to see any writing and we really want to make
sure that correctional staff are kept safe. Are you confident
that that can happen.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
At this stage? No, I don't think my members are
safe at all.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Well, I mean that's it's a big call. But as
I said, you and I have been talking about this
for the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That's right, we've been talking about it for you.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, we have we have to be really fair. We
certainly have been talking about it for years. And I
know that you know that the government announce their longer
term plans, but that's going to take a while to
come to fruition. We spoke as well last week about
those about the correctional officer numbers. I mean we're yet
to see those increased. It's not going to happen overnight.
Is there any movement in terms of the recruitment of
(08:47):
those officers? Do you think or you know, where are
we at with all of that? So?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I do believe that the Department of Corrections is they've
got to recruit squad at the moment is they're continually recruiting.
Where the issue is too people are coming here and
either they're not lighting the NT they're as you mentioned,
they're having pay issues. There's a toxic workplaces because of
(09:12):
the overcrowding, still being short staffed. There's all these factors
that impacting and people are leaving.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, look, it's it's just a bit of a debarcle,
I guess at the moment in terms of what is
going on. Erin before I let you go. If we
do see a situation where our correctional stuff take industrial action,
are they going to walk out of the watchhouses as well,
because that'll be a pretty critical thing.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Well, that's going to be the instruction from my members.
But at this stage, my members have a vibe Alice
Springs and Darwin will be walking out, which could include
the watchhouses as well.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
So that will then fall on the police.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Well, we'll be talking very close with Nathan because we
don't want to put the jeopardy of the police safety.
But I need to have instructions from members. But we
were seriously considering the safety of the police. We don't
want to have another workers life in jeopardy.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah absolutely, And yeah, look I would totally agree, and
I think that you know, at the moment, there's probably
a lot of goodwill towards our correctional officers, but I
just wonder whether that would shift to some degree if
we wind up with pressure on everybody as a result
of industrial action.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
No, all, that's right. Unfortunately, we shouldn't be looking like
badly at corrections. You should actually be looking at the
organization to put them in that position. And that's what
often people do when our workers take straight They blame
the workers, but it actually we should be looking at
the employers for their behavior.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I guess, just to play devil's advocate here, I mean,
what do you reckon? The department could have done differently
to avoid this situation.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
O Katie. What they should have done is actually sat
down with the unions straight away. And so we've got
an issue here. I know that we've got short staff
and how can we work this together. Everything's about, oh
we've had discussions. Here we go, this is what we're
going to do. Here is our emergency measures, etc. They've
done this because they know they didn't want to be
in a situation where we could actually say no, that
(11:22):
doesn't work, this is the way to do it. There's
been no consultation. We're just being both in at They
keep trying to say they're consulting with us, but sending
us a piece of paper having a little bit of
a meeting. That's not consultation, all.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right, So, Erina, when do you reckon we're going to
know whether this industrial action is happening? Would it be
by the savo?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I reckon we'll even though late this afternoon or tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
All right. Well, by the sounds of it, you and
I could be talking again very soon. I always appreciate
your time. Thanks so much for having a chat with
me this morning. Thank you you Tube
We know that prison staff are threatening to walk off
the job today with concerns that a number of emergency
actions by the Corrections Department are going to jeopardize staff
safety and potentially lead to rioting. The emergency measures, which
include moving thirty eight prisoners from Alice Springs to Darwin
Correctional Center, is in response to a rapid and continual
(00:21):
surge in prisoner numbers across the Northern Territory's correctional facilities
and indeed the watch houses. Now we spoke to Nathan
Finn about the impact on those watch houses earlier today.
Joining me on the line right now is the United
Workers Union's NT secretary, Erina Early. Good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Erina, Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Now, Erina, are we going to see correction staff walk
off the job?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It is highly likely over the next forty hour hours.
We're assessing the situation talking to our legal but it's
definitely something that is a realistic thing that could occur.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So how soon will you decide? I don't know, you
said they're forty eight hours, but what are you sort
of keeping an eye on before you firm that up.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
We're still having discussions with the Commissioner or so too.
We need to have those instructions from our members as well,
so we need to ensure that they are a comfortable
walking out as well. But the information we're getting so
far from our members is they want to walk. They're
not feeling safe the correction so.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
They want to walk off the job. Erin, I mean,
you and I have spoken actually a few times over
the last couple of weeks after we were contacted by
a whistleblower saying that stuff do not feel safe after
somebody was knocked out. A correctional worker was knocked out
just a few weeks ago. By the sounds of it,
the numbers are continuing to grow. Look, I'm not surprised
(01:48):
that they're really quite annoyed at this point.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Ah, they are there. I think it's beyond annoyed as well, Katie.
It is that genuine fear. I went to the prison
yesterday in Darwi and it was like eerily quiet. So
I don't know if you've ever been to the prison,
but it's loud, you know, these all these people talking
and stuff like that. It was a deathly silence. And
I actually mentioned that to the officers and they said, yeah,
(02:13):
this is the scary part and they genuinely were saying
to me yesterday they feel there is a riot or
a large scale incident going to occur very soon.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I mean, that is a real worry. I think, first
and foremost, you want to make sure that everybody working
inside those facilities is safe. You know, you want to
make sure that you know that the prisoners that are
doing the right thing are safe as well. You want
to make sure that everybody's safe. It's it sounds like
a very concerning situation right now.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh, it is is really concerning, and I actually feel
very scared for my members. They are working hard, they're
putting a brave face on. They just don't know if
they're going to come home each day now.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So erin a next twenty four hour you're going to
wait and see, or next forty eight hours, I guess
waiting to just keep an eye on things, I know.
The Commissioner has directed a number of different emergency actions,
including placing ten extra prisoners into the Darwin Police Watchhouse,
increasing Sector ten of the Darwin Correctional Center by twenty prisoners,
(03:19):
increasing the Alas Springs Reintegration Facility by an additional twenty prisoners,
the transferral of all those female prisoners from Alice Springs
to Darwin as a temporary measure. Are these things going
to help?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Well, the thing is you're just transferring or or increasing
prisoner numbers. The thing is, Katie, they're not increasing the
correctional officers. And this is the issue everyone keeps talking about.
This is a critical thing about prison numbers. The critical
thing is we don't have enough correctional officers to deal
with these increased numbers. And we haven't even started introducing
(03:57):
the new government's legislation yet.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
All right, because I know, I understand that you've spoken
to the ABC a little bit earlier today and said
that it felt that you know that those legislative changes
were having an impact. I mean, we spoke to Nathan
f In a bit earlier this morning. You said it
was a bit too early for that to be the case.
I mean, you'd have to I mean, you would have
to agree that. To put it really bluntly, the current
government has inherited a bit of a shit show.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Oh look absolutely. But what I'm saying, Katie, is all
the stuff about increased prisoners, this is part of management's job,
the executive of correction. So regardless of what government in
governments in they have to risk mitigate this and this
hasn't been done. And this is what my delegates, my members,
(04:44):
the health and faifety representatives have all been saying for
years and years. There is no continuously paying for a
large scale riots or incident or for increase numb prisoner
numbers has not existed. And now this is where we
are in trouble now.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So where we're at right now, and you know the
concern around a riot, the concern around correctional service numbers.
What is there anything that could be happening right now
aside from what the Commissioner has already announced, Eerin from
your perspective, is there anything that could be happening right
(05:21):
now to try to calm this situation down.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I think what we need to do, Katie, is ensure
that we've got the risk assessments on all these changes
because they weren't in place and Friday, they weren't even drafted.
The union and the Health and Safety Reps had to
demand that under the Work Health and Safety legislation. But
we need to be sitting down with the Commissioner and saying, Okay,
(05:45):
where can we put more officers? Where can we get
more officers. We've got officers, you know, we've got community corrections,
we've got chief correctional officers, we've got duty deputy superintendent.
They need to be coming on the floor as well. Yep,
that's the extra thirty or forty officers, right, So.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Get that middle management, get all that of the mob
in on the ground. Yeah, do you reckon they're going
to do that?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I don't know that. We need to have those discussions
and we're not having them.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah. Right, So that's really what staff are looking for
right now. They are waiting to see whether that is
something that happens over the next twenty four hours or so.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Absolutely, and that's real leadership there. That's what they're looking for.
They're looking for a direction to say everybody's then it's
not just coming from correctional officers who are worried about
their safety. We're putting everybody in. Every person, every correction
officer will be working while we deal with this erina.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
If that industrial action is taken and if we wind
up in a situation where correctional stuff do walk off
the job in protest of what is going on, what
happens with the prisoners, do they do they go into lockdown.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
That's usually a process that will be the decision of
the Commission of Ali but that's usually what happens.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
And how long could a could that strike action last.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well under the will be under the workhelse and fafety yet,
because that's where members are concerned about their safety at work.
It could it could go for an hour, it could
go it could go for days.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
What do you reckon it should like, how long do
you reckon it should go for until.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
They've actually got increased correctional officer numbers where they sell
safe to go back to work.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah. Right, So, by the sounds of it, from what
you're saying to me this morning, the immediate thing that
could happen to increase those numbers of guards and of
those correctional officers on the ground, you know, in the
prisons right now or in those correctional facilities right now,
it is to get middle management into some of those
operational roles assisting absolutely now, Erina, you know, I think
(07:56):
the biggest concern at the moment, and we've touched on
this already, but biggest concern is we do not want
to see any writing and we really want to make
sure that correctional staff are kept safe. Are you confident
that that can happen.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
At this stage? No, I don't think my members are
safe at all.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Well, I mean that's it's a big call. But as
I said, you and I have been talking about this
for the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That's right, we've been talking about it for you.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, we have we have to be really fair. We
certainly have been talking about it for years. And I
know that you know that the government announce their longer
term plans, but that's going to take a while to
come to fruition. We spoke as well last week about
those about the correctional officer numbers. I mean we're yet
to see those increased. It's not going to happen overnight.
Is there any movement in terms of the recruitment of
(08:47):
those officers? Do you think or you know, where are
we at with all of that? So?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I do believe that the Department of Corrections is they've
got to recruit squad at the moment is they're continually recruiting.
Where the issue is too people are coming here and
either they're not lighting the NT they're as you mentioned,
they're having pay issues. There's a toxic workplaces because of
(09:12):
the overcrowding, still being short staffed. There's all these factors
that impacting and people are leaving.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, look, it's it's just a bit of a debarcle,
I guess at the moment in terms of what is
going on. Erin before I let you go. If we
do see a situation where our correctional stuff take industrial action,
are they going to walk out of the watchhouses as well,
because that'll be a pretty critical thing.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Well, that's going to be the instruction from my members.
But at this stage, my members have a vibe Alice
Springs and Darwin will be walking out, which could include
the watchhouses as well.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
So that will then fall on the police.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Well, we'll be talking very close with Nathan because we
don't want to put the jeopardy of the police safety.
But I need to have instructions from members. But we
were seriously considering the safety of the police. We don't
want to have another workers life in jeopardy.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah absolutely, And yeah, look I would totally agree, and
I think that you know, at the moment, there's probably
a lot of goodwill towards our correctional officers, but I
just wonder whether that would shift to some degree if
we wind up with pressure on everybody as a result
of industrial action.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
No, all, that's right. Unfortunately, we shouldn't be looking like
badly at corrections. You should actually be looking at the
organization to put them in that position. And that's what
often people do when our workers take straight They blame
the workers, but it actually we should be looking at
the employers for their behavior.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I guess, just to play devil's advocate here, I mean,
what do you reckon? The department could have done differently
to avoid this situation.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
O Katie. What they should have done is actually sat
down with the unions straight away. And so we've got
an issue here. I know that we've got short staff
and how can we work this together. Everything's about, oh
we've had discussions. Here we go, this is what we're
going to do. Here is our emergency measures, etc. They've
done this because they know they didn't want to be
in a situation where we could actually say no, that
(11:22):
doesn't work, this is the way to do it. There's
been no consultation. We're just being both in at They
keep trying to say they're consulting with us, but sending
us a piece of paper having a little bit of
a meeting. That's not consultation, all.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Right, So, Erina, when do you reckon we're going to
know whether this industrial action is happening? Would it be
by the savo?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I reckon we'll even though late this afternoon or tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
All right. Well, by the sounds of it, you and
I could be talking again very soon. I always appreciate
your time. Thanks so much for having a chat with
me this morning. Thank you you Tube
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