The Week That Was - 7th March 2025

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time for what is set to be a very
busy hour of radio in the studio with us this morning.
From Sky News. We've got Matt Cunningham, Good morning.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Matts, Morning Katie.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
We've got from the Colp government Jinsen Charles, Minister for
Diversity and Youth and various portfolios. Good to have you
on the show.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
Good morning, Good morning to your listeners.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
We have got Independent Member for Johnson, Justine Davis. Good
morning to you, Justine.

Speaker 4 (00:24):
Hey, Katie Hey.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Lovely to have you in the studio. And we have
also got Duran Young from the Labor Party, the Deputy
opposition leader.

Speaker 5 (00:31):
Good morning, Good morning Katie, and good morning to run
out there.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
It's a packed house in here this morning. We've got
a couple of Mike's being shared, so bear with us.
It is going to be an incredibly busy one because
we know a week ago the IKAG delegate Patricia Kelly
found a senior public servant had committed unsatisfactory conduct in
the management of their conflicts of interest after failing to
disclose the full extent of their friendship with a candidate

(00:58):
despite remaining on the recruitment panel and providing them with
a reference now. Miss Kelly at the time called their
actions negligent and incompetent, stating they should have recused themselves
from the recruitment process. That senior public servant has now
come forward. It is the Northern Territory Police Commissioner Michael Murphy.

(01:21):
Now the Commissioner yesterday issued a statement saying since publication
of the Eyekak, I have communicated with the Minister for
Police and kept her informed as to the progress of
the recommendations. My role as the Commissioner is to ensure
there is trust and confidence in the Northern Territory Police Force.

(01:41):
That is something that is now being questioned. We know
that the Police Association have come out and said the
entire executive Board of the Northern Territory Police Association is
unanimously calling upon the Commissioner to tender his resignation and

(02:02):
Matt can he survive?

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, he's certainly got a lot of questions to answer, Katie.
I mean, what a mess and what you know it
says about so many institutions here in the Northern Territory.

Speaker 5 (02:15):
This whole.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
This whole facade, this whole episode, sorry, has just created
so many questions about what happens in this jurisdiction, why
different people are treated differently, how you know people look
after you know, their friends, and how they go after
their enemies. I mean, we've got so many questions now

(02:38):
about the Northern Territory Police Force, We've got so many
questions about the Anti i CAAC, and we've got so
many questions about the government and what the government is
doing about these institutions and what traditionally the government does
about these things is nothing. Because we had a report
that came out a week ago into this issue that
gave the commit a very generously in my opinion, anonymity.

(03:05):
Why why was that allowed? The only reason that he
is out now and the only reason we are talking
about this and the only reason we know who this
is is because Justine Davis came out and said that
she was going to name him in parliament. Otherwise everyone
was going to be happy to sweep this all under
the carpet.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, which is quite unbelievable. I mean, Justine, I thought
it was quite brave of you actually earlier in the
week to come out and so you know, I will
name this person under parliamentary privilege if I have to.
If it gets to that point.

Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah, and look, I think I think, as Matt said,
there's so many issues at this raisers, but at its
core is can we trust our public institutions? We can
we trust our elected members, And nothing in this story,
nothing in this story, gives me any confidence in that.
So not only did the Chief Minister, who's the Minister

(03:57):
for Aikak know who this was, and you know, had
been given the report at the beginning of the week,
she chose to do nothing. She had advice. You know,
we can talk about that advice, and she's now said
it was advice from the Solicitor General, which I would
be really interested in seeing in terms of her saying
that she wasn't able to name the person. But also,

(04:19):
we still don't know, there's still no consequences for this.
We still don't know what's happening. You know, this is
a government that says ten year olds can be responsible
for their actions. How about our police commissioner.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
You know, it's just not good enough.

Speaker 4 (04:30):
So yeah, I feel really, you know, on behalf of
all the people in our community, we need to see
that something's going to happen to address this, you know,
and it's not just an individual issue, it's a systemic issue.
I think that it's really important that strong leadership is
shown so that we can see that these issues are

(04:51):
addressed and people are held responsible.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
I do think the Chief Minister's potentially in a bit
of a rock and a hard place here in the
situation or in the I guess in the sense that
you know, previously we have wound up where we've had
commissioners of different roles having to or sort of being
forced into situations where those contracts are maybe being ended

(05:14):
early and it's costing the taxpayer an enormous amount. The
question for me, I suppose is has the Northern Territory
Police Commissioner breached his contract and in which case, if
he has, then I would say that there is grounds
for the Chief Biness to obviously end that contract for
him as the police commissioner. But I think that there's

(05:36):
a lot of questions here around the other appointments to
executive roles then within the Northern Territory Police Force. It
also really makes me question what it says about Michael
Murphy's leadership and decision making skills. And you know, to me,
there's a real common sense element about all of this.
When there is a declaration. I mean, when you have

(05:58):
got a conflict of in there needs to be a
declaration made that you've got that conflict of interest, And
to be really frank about it, I'm utterly surprised that
that didn't happen. I would have thought that when you
are in a you know, in a position leading an
entire police force, that you'd have knowledge of when there

(06:19):
is a conflict of interest and when you need to
declare it.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Well, you'd like to think so, and you'd especially like
to think so when you're the head of the same
organization that for three years investigated, interrogated, ran surveillance on
bug the office of a woman, right, a former police
officer for a very similar, if not more trivial thing.

(06:42):
So that I think that's the number one question the
police commissioner has got to answer today. How do you
explain what happened to Colin Gwynn? How can you sit
there and have done what you have done, and then
how can you say, well, you know, but we wasted
a million dollars. We put four detectives from our crack
Special References unit, we park cars out the front of

(07:03):
our house, we bugged her office, we took it all
to the DPP. The DPP took it all the way
to the Supreme Court, made sure that the worst of
what was recorded in the covert bugging operation was made
public before we finally admitted we never had a case.
How do you balance up those two issues? How do
you say it was okay for that to happen to

(07:24):
her and in this case, same deal probably worse. It's
an educational piece.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, it is quite unbelievable when you look at it
that way.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, look exactly, and I think there's a plethora of
examples of inconsistency. And you know what the general punt
will say, hang on, that's not fair. And like you say, Katie,
it's not rocket science. You know, we all have to
deal with conflict or interest here in the territory. But
I still think the bigger issue is we have systems
in place and institutions in place to deal with these things.

(07:54):
We have an ICAC. We can talk about that. That's
an issue around this as well. The IKAK report to
the minister. The Minister then takes appropriate action. What I'm
saying is where is the appropriate action? It is very
very serious. It's not just about the actions that were taken.
It's about serious undermining of trust and integrity in you
know one of our most senior powerful public the Police

(08:19):
Commissioner Jinson.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
I mean as a minister here this morning representing the
Northern Territory government, you know what is the government going
to do?

Speaker 3 (08:27):
So first of four legged thing from the last week,
so the wars legacy mentioned earlier, so this issue for
the Chief Minister that she wasn't able to name this person.
So that's so the legislation was drafted previously. So then
so fasterday we know that I think who is this
person because the Commissioner came out and then informed that
he's the one who has been named on that public
statement issued by the IK and again leg a thing.

(08:50):
It shows the limitations of the AKK legislation and the
thing it's the government legged thing. Chief Minister made it
on a state ministry. We'll be looking onto that legislation
as well in the near future.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
So to change it so that somebody can be named.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
Again like a thing. One of the common thing that
we are hearing is a boat like it's a toothless
tiger and it's a board like a thing. If you
have like a institution that's spends like a more than
like thirty five million dollars over the last few years
to have this investigation. If there is no consequences, what's
the benefit of having this particular institution And it's a
boat like that's what like as a member of the

(09:25):
CLP team and also a member of the cabinet, I
got like full confidence in the Chief Minister. And again,
like you can't just sack a person just by getting
some information. There is a process to follow as well.
I'm sure, like I think she will be making sure
like things are taken in account. But one thing I
know is a boat like a thing, it won't be
at tax base cost of expenses which used to happen
in the past. And that's something that I think she

(09:46):
made clear when she was in the position as well,
and as the Chief Minister, I'm sure like a thing,
she is looking onto this matter, but it needs some
time for her to come out and like describe what course.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Of ac bit of a cop out? Does she need
to stand up here and say this is not good enough.
This is the person leading leading one of the largest
governmental organizations in the Northern Territory, if not the largest
government organization within the Northern Territory, but also the whole
agenda of the Northern Territory government at the moment is
around crime, is around people doing the right thing, so.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Around consequences that's in appropriate action, right.

Speaker 5 (10:24):
Exactly, That's exactly right, Katie. And it's quite concerning that
the Chief Minister has gone silent on this issue over
the last week. And look, I will you take into
account that there may have been legal issues around naming
that public service at the time, and I think it's
a cop out, but what could have happened is at
least shown what actions have been put in place and

(10:46):
what she had done if she could have could or
couldn't have named that person. The reality was she went
into hiding and she hit it. She could have actually
shown what actions were being put in place towards this
public servant that had hired a mate, rather than covering
it up, is what the concern. And I think that's
what actually.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Terriories have any idea that this had happened, I mean,
because the fact is it actually happened when Labor was
still in power. Did Labor have any idea that you
know that the police commissioner was essentially putting people into
roles that were his friends.

Speaker 5 (11:19):
No, definitely not. And it doesn't matter who's in government
at the time. There is a separation of powers between
the Minister's office and the agency at the time, So
at that time there would have been a recruitment process
and that would have well and truly and rightfully so
sat under that agency they recruit. The only really recruitment

(11:40):
process that do happen is around CEOs of departments and
they go through their own kind of process which are
then recommended to the mess But this had nothing to
do with the government of the time. It's got to
do with Michael Murphy, who was a commissioner who and
that's where the recruitment process has come out and IKAK
have investigated and found that wrongdoing towards the Police commission.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
What should have happened is that last Thursday. I think
the Chief Minister was informed last Thursday, at the very worst,
last Friday, the day the report was coming out. There
should have been a conversation between the Chief Minister and
the Police Commissioner that should have gone along the lines
of when this report comes out, you will immediately come
out and say that it is you right, and then
we don't have to because clearly that could have been done.

(12:28):
That just didn't happen for a week. And the only
reason that happened. To go back to my original point
is that Justine forced them into it because she said,
if you don't sought this by May eight e and
I'm going to sort it for you. I mean, where
is the accountability, Where is the responsibility? You know, where
is the action that we've been promised on these sorts
of things. And then the Chief Minister puts out a
media release yesterday that says we've wasted thirty five million

(12:51):
dollars on the app iikak Yes, I agree, next line,
it's all Labour's fault. I mean, sorry, you've been in
government since last August. You're in charge. Now do something that's.

Speaker 5 (13:00):
Right to Also, remember why IQAQ was put in place,
because there was an all time low of public trust
towards the government, the Giles government at the time, which
Leafanocciario was part of. IQAQ was a promise leading into
the election by Labor which was then obviously implemented. Is

(13:20):
the piece of legislation perfect no? Is any piece of
legislation perfect no? But it is our role as members
of Parliament, including the Chief Minister who is in government
of the day, to amend those pieces of legislation to
ensure that it's working to what the public expect.

Speaker 4 (13:39):
And look, I think there are, as we said, a
myriad of issues about IKAK, but I don't think this
story we need to get distracted by IKAK. About this story,
it's very clear ikk did their job. They did what
they were able to do, They abided by what the
IKA Act says. The Chief Minister, in my view, as
Matt just outline, did not do her job. And just
as people in Northern Territory, we have a right to

(14:02):
expect our police commissioner to behave appropriately and we have
a right to expect our senior leadership to then take
action to address it if that doesn't happen. And I still,
I still, I still haven't heard what's going to happen
about this?

Speaker 1 (14:14):
What do you reckon should happen now? Justine, like, what
do you think first off, that the police commissioner can
stay in that role.

Speaker 4 (14:21):
I think it's going to be very difficult for him
to stay in this in that role, and I think,
as Matt said, there was another pathway that would have
been much easier and better for everyone and much more transparent.
That didn't happen. So this has actually become a much bigger,
you know, situation that it needed to be otherwise. I
think at essence, we need to have trust as a

(14:43):
community in our police commissioner, in our elected representatives, and
so we're going to need to see something's going to
need to happen to restore that trust. It's broken now.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
And I mean, do you think that the Northern Territory
government needs to review this legislation? Do you think that,
you know, do you think there needs to be some
so the next time if something like this arises, there's
no you know, like there's no blood lines, yeah, a person.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
The blood lines now are very interesting. I mean, I
think we've heard different views about what the actual legal
you know, responsible in situational limitations are. I've heard different
things to what other people have said, so absolutely that
needs to be clarified. I think absolutely we need to
look at ikak. I'm a very big fan of having

(15:29):
an independent Commission against corruption. I think we need that here.
I think it's complicated in a small jurisdiction. We've talked
about that before, but I think we can do it
much better. So I think, yeah, there are things we
can do about that. But as I said before, I
don't want that to distract us from what this issue is.
KAK did their job in this situation. It may have
been imperfect, you know, there are lots of things we

(15:49):
could do to look at it differently, but they haven't
done anything wrong. They've done what they needed to do.
The next steps did not happen.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
I mean, Jins, we're to hear from the government because
this is a real hit. I think for Leo Foccio's
leadership in the sense that people are sort of going well,
should she have acted more quickly? Should she have come
out and named this person and made some change?

Speaker 3 (16:11):
Sorry, Like I do not agree with the board Legg.
I think what said earlier by matter boardleg I thing
just because of like what Justine said that the commissioner
came on. So again like my first christiness a board
Leggy thing. How as an independent member like I'm a
member of cabinet even I wasn't aware of like this person.
So how Justin is aware of this information.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
It's like first conference earlier in the week that she
knew who it was.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
She knew who it was, none of she could have
acted no, no, she.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
She could have said she was doing what Justine said
she was doing. She should have She could have said, well,
I've got advice from the Solicitor General that I can't
name him, but I can name him in Parliament and
that's what I'm.

Speaker 5 (16:45):
Going to do.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
What she has done was the board legged thing. She
has communicated with the Solicitor General and also she has
communicated with the See of the Chief Ministers and Cabins
and again, like I think getting that voice as a
chief minister, she can't take like an emotional decision just
on information.

Speaker 5 (17:02):
She released the report from the Solicitor General to say
that she couldn't name that person. That she's come out
and said she can't release it. Like, the issue here
is around the public trust and what actions the Chief
Minister hasn't taken. That's what people are upset about. It's
not necessarily around the naming of who it was it was,
around what actions.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
She was following a process and that hasn't No. No,
that's again like I think that's a different view of
an individuals. But again, like I think from the government
to point of view, leg I think Chief Minister was
taking action, and I think that actions lead to this
person to come in and aidentify himself. And I think saying
about lega thing almost the one that who did the mistry.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
It's forced to like he was literally in a situation
where he was forced to the pressure was continuing to mount.
I mean, as Matt Starlier, that's right. And Justine you
had said, you know, if there wasn't if there wasn't
some clarity provided, and then the reality was you were
going to speak about it under parliamentary privilege, you know,
later this month. I mean, look, I'm literally getting messages

(18:03):
right now from people within the service saying, Katie, this
is the tip of the iceberg. So that I think
is the concern in itself is that if that is
the sense, and if that is the feeling amongst I'm
not saying that's the feeling amongst every single police officer
within the Northern Territory Police Force, but if that is

(18:24):
some of the sentiment that I'm starting to receive already.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
The reason it's the tip of the iceberg is because
in this jurisdiction, these things happen and our governments do
nothing about them. You go back to Queensland, where there
was widespread police corruption, they had the Fitzgerald inquiry, right,
they put the police commissioner in jail. In New South Wales,
where there was police corruption, they had a royal commission
in Victoria after the lawyer X scandal, they had a
royal commission here. Everyone saw the Colin Gwin thing play

(18:51):
out in public. What happened subsequently absolutely nothing. Look at
the IKACK itself. In the first six years the i
caap's mean in operation, We've had a bloke in charge
who went completely rogue. We've had all of these reports
come out that had to be overturned. We've had i
CAAC officers secretly potentially unlawfully recording witnesses. Now we've got

(19:14):
another the second Commissioner, who's on leave as he faces
allegations of miss inappropriate behavior. What at any point has
been done about it?

Speaker 5 (19:24):
What?

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Nothing?

Speaker 5 (19:24):
Why?

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Because we relied on the advice of some faceless bureaucrat.
I mean, you're in charge. When you're the government, you're
in charge do something. The Labor government used to do
exactly the same thing. They'd say, Oh, we can't do
anything because we've got advice from who from some I
don't know, and now we see exactly the same thing
happened under the COLP like Durham Whiting. You guys, do

(19:45):
anything about the Gwin case or the debarcle that's been
the IKA Now.

Speaker 5 (19:49):
Well, look, I'll be you know, perfecly honest. I was
an in cabinet at that time, so I wouldn't have
had that information that to that detail. And you know
obviously now the deputy Opposition leader. But what is concerning
right now is that we have a general supposedly advice
from the General Solicitor saying that we couldn't that the
Chief Minister couldn't name Michael Murphy at this time. Why

(20:11):
doesn't she just release that advice so then people have
the trust because the trust has been lost during throughout
this whole process. And again Leahnokiaro is hiding that advice
from the Solicitor General. She needs to come out and
be honest with.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
Territories statement esterday. And I think this happened after like this.

Speaker 5 (20:30):
Uh she's released the Solicitor General statement.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
Sometimes you want to be able to do like put
it on the statement.

Speaker 5 (20:37):
The Solicitor General's Advice has just released that from the
Solicitor General to say that she couldn't.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
I'm not in a position to say, like a thing
what lead to her statement, But I think there was
a statement that came out from the chiefs list today, Yes,
and I think his name came out afterwards as well.

Speaker 4 (20:53):
So but Jinsen, you must agree that this has under
my trust in the chief Minister.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
No, I don't. Again again like this is an action
of a police commissioner, and again like I think how
he can sell like anything, we haven't trust for the
chief minister because she was like I think if you
count the days as well, it's kind of like a
thing seven complete days. And I think the person came
out by himself and the thing identified him, and I
think there is a speculation it's because of like Justin
was going to name that person. And again like Mikerosnieze

(21:21):
back to Justin again, like how did you know this person?

Speaker 2 (21:24):
I was a public Why is that the question?

Speaker 3 (21:26):
That's a question because I wasn't avert of this information.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Everyone in this city knew who it was.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
That was a speculation, But I was a public servant
before as well. When this statement came out, there was
like multiple individuals conducted me and said, like everything, we
know who this person and we know who it is,
but it wasn't the person who came out. Look, so
that's an issue here. As you mentioned earlier, it was
like a system became.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
I mean, I think Justine was confident she knew who
it was, and it turns out she was right. So
I think we're dealing in semantics.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah. Well, but look, I think at the end of
the day as well, the issue that we have got
now is we've got a person in charge of the
Northern Territory Police Force where people are questioning whether he
can really stay in that role. You have literally got
the union that represents a huge majority of the Northern
Territory Police Force saying their entire executive board of the

(22:15):
Northern Territory Police Association is unanimously calling upon the Commissioner
to tender his resignation. They are saying it is another
example of the Northern Territory Police Force executive failing to
uphold the very standards that they demand of others. Nathan Finn,
the President, saying it's a slap in the face of

(22:35):
the hard working men and women on the ground who
put their lives on the line. Every day. I mean
that sentence in itself, to me, really highlights the issue
that we've now got in the NT. You know, whether
you think Michael Murphy's been doing a good job, whether
you think he's a good blog no matter what you
think of the man, we know that an eyecach report

(22:57):
has now come out, you know, with some very very serious,
serious comments, I mean calling the actions negligent and incompetent.
If we have got somebody who the IKAK has said
has acted negligently and incompetently, can they remain in that role?

Speaker 2 (23:20):
It's a very good question and there are questions, As
I said that the Police Commissioner needs to answer that.
The other question is what happens with the appointment that's
been made?

Speaker 3 (23:31):
Right?

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Does it stand? I mean this goes back to the
government not taking any action. I mean, could the government
not have gone back to the police and said you
need to re at least redo that appointment. You've got
a guy who's been who's been appointed to a very
senior position that pays a lot of money and the

(23:52):
process has been identified as being unsatisfactory. Is that a
understand and what does that say about our faith in
that institution?

Speaker 4 (24:03):
If it is exactly and I think you read out Katie.
In the commissioner's own statement, he said, my role as
the Commissioner is to ensure there's trust and confidence in
the Northern Territory Police Force, the service it provides, and
its internal governance.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
I'm silent in response to that.

Speaker 3 (24:22):
Well, so again, like my response to that is a board.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
Leg.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
I thin Chief Minister is the police Minister will be
looking into this matter, and I think she will be
coming out on informing the public aboard leg I think
what are the actions, But again there is need for
some time to complete the processes. She can't make an
emotional decision or to public because of like there is
a public sentiment.

Speaker 5 (24:40):
Again, this isn't about an emotional decision. This is about
what process is the Chief Minister doing and what action
is the Chief Minister taking. Going back to the point
of the Assistant Commissioner Keenan's position, you know that I
think it's unfair to kind of target him because he
was just you know, obviously applying for a and that
that's he doesn't decide.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
Agree, But other people.

Speaker 5 (25:03):
Who applied for that job, Oh yeah, what about handed
to Yeah, I agree, I agree with that, like it's
the process and a governance issue that's the real concern here,
So that comes back to the Commissioner. It also comes
back to now the Chief Minister, who hasn't taken any
action to date around this.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Again to ask, like anything, have you read the statement
that Chief Minister put it out yesterday? Because I think
she outlined the process that she has gone through. So
you're saying about like she hasn't followed the process. There
was a process that was forlored and I think this
information came out after how.

Speaker 5 (25:36):
Many days did that take for her to put that
statement out? Is the issue? She didn't show during the week,
what action has been taken. She still hasn't released the
General Solicitor's advice. She could release that to give some
trust back to the public. She hasn't done any of that.
All she's put out is a pretty weak statement, pretty
weak statement, and then all of a sudden, one hour later,

(25:57):
all of.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
The action, all of the action followed Justine saying she
was going to name him in Parliament. We can only
presume that had she not done that, everyone was going
to be happy for this to be swept under the carpet.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
Well, look, I don't know that people are going to
be happy for it to be swept under the carpet.
What I can see is already on the tech side.
There is a real mixed bag of messages coming through.
I will read those out a little later this morning.
We're going to take a quick break. You are listening
to Mix one oh four nine's three p sixty. It
is the week that was. We will continue on the
discussion with lots of other things that have happened throughout

(26:30):
this week. And we know the government say that they're
delivering critical workforce support for Northern Territory Corrections staff through
a partnership between the Department of Corrections and G four S.
The agreement follows a rapid, robust and thorough procurement process,
they say, through the Department of Corrections, and is going
to be rolled out under a phased approach. The first

(26:51):
cohort of G four S stuff is expected to take
the oath and commence induction training within weeks. We know
that the Minister for Corrections, Jared Maylee, had said the
partnership was a critical step in delivering targeted support to
existing NT correction staff and ensured the long term sustainability
of the corrections system. We also interviewed the Corrections Commissioner

(27:13):
earlier in the week. He said that a number of
beds would be coming online this week. Now, yesterday we
had the head of the United Workers Union, Erona Early
on the show and she had said, you know, quite
simply that there wasn't a staffing issue and this support
was not required. Listeners actually messaging in to go wolf.

(27:35):
If there's not a staffing issue, why are we paying
eleven million dollars in overtime?

Speaker 2 (27:39):
I thought it was twenty one according to the Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Think eleven might have been to transport right.

Speaker 4 (27:45):
So in terms of jfours like, we don't need to
imagine what might happen when a company, when jfoors that
company comes into a very volatile environment, because there's a
clear history of what's happened. They have human rights allegations
longer than my arm against them from within within Victoria,

(28:06):
within Western Australia, in the UK, in South Africa, on
Manas Island. And what we need here is to actually
be able to have people in our prison system in
crisis who we can trust, who we know are going
to make things safer, not less safe, and this is
not going to make things safer. I'm really worried about
what's going to happen to the people who in prison,

(28:28):
to our prison staff, and putting people at putting an
organization in place that has at best incredibly dubious history
is not the solution. And I heard the Minister Corgrections
say publicly the other day, well he hadn't really personally
looked into them. That is not good enough in my view.

Speaker 5 (28:47):
I find it, Yeah, quite concerned, you know, reiterating what
justin Justine was saying as well, have all those concerns
from our team. But like what's also concerning is around
the way this whole incident has been handled. We've seen
we know that the Correction Minister's advisor used to work
for G four S and you know.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
How he used to work for the Northern Territory government
as the Corrections commissioner appointed by Labor.

Speaker 5 (29:16):
Yeah, but I mean he's now in advice.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Sached by the CLP after after Labor jumped up and
down and accused him of being too soft on criminals.

Speaker 5 (29:27):
That's what happened, That is what happened.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
Went missing out of the Duchelor work camp. And Labor
jumped up and down. Michael Gunner said that Labor that
said that the government, the Corrections Commissioner had let an
axe murdering rapist Michael Gunner's words go on the loose, right,
And so the CLP government sacked him. The guy was
sacked for being too soft on criminals, right, But that

(29:51):
was the reason he was sacked. That's why he had
to go and work for G four s because he
got sacked by the CLP because you guys demanded it.
And now I'm going to turn around and.

Speaker 4 (29:59):
Say, isn't the issue. Isn't the issue here about trans
about transparency, about proper process.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
Well, look, I did follow that up. I did actually
follows I'm trying to tell the full story of exactly
what I understand.

Speaker 5 (30:11):
That where we've got we've got a member who used
to work for g FO.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
I actually followed this up through the week because Selena
raised this on the show on Tuesday. So I actually
did follow this up, and I got a full and
thorough response from the Northern Territory government. So the Northern
Territory Government, the Minister his office was not involved in
the procurement process in any way, shape or form, the
Corrections Department had a select panel, so I believe that

(30:40):
they approached five different companies. Three of those came back
and obviously went for the job. Now from that they've
they've chosen the organization that they deemed to be the
most suitable for the Northern territory or for the role
that was required. Now, in no way is what we
were told. In any way, shape or form, was that

(31:01):
advisor involved in that process. But nonetheless I believe they
had declared, you know, like there was always a declaration
of where they had previously worked, and certainly the Minister's
office had said that whenever somebody comes on board. Now
that is I think part of the process that you've
actually got to declare, you know, if there is any

(31:22):
kind of conflict, are you confident that that's what's happened?

Speaker 3 (31:24):
Jinsent Again, like when it comes to the government beyond
this or we clearly went to the election with like
a reduced crime and I think and we passed legislation
and due to that, I think though the number of
correction or the prisoners go up to five hundred, and
it caused some pressure into the corrections and a thing
as mad mentioned earlier, there was like an enormous number
of overtime that we've been peeing. So that means like

(31:46):
there was like clear lack of stuff in the correction space.
And because the numbers were going up and the past
like months or years, that shows a board like we want,
we want, we are not in a position to recruit
that min stuff in a short period of time. So
this is an interim measure to make sure like bigle
like staff on board to transport the prisoners from the
prison to the coach and just to alleviate that pressure

(32:10):
from the correction stuff. That means the correction stuff can
work within the correctional facility and not transporting the clients
up and down each day. And I think that's what
it is done at the first stage, and also the
next stage would be most likely if the pressure is
not coming down on the correction stuff or if they're
not in a position to do the recruitment. Further, that
means like I think the hospital transfer as well, because

(32:32):
I have seen first stand about like two correction offices
with all the time with a prisoner or from a
correction facility in the hospital that put like a lot
of pressure and Commissioner was clear that it's all paid
from over time as well. So that means like there
is two things. One is about like the stuff fatigue
stuff will being and also one is about like the
financial component along with that as well.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Cartie, if we want to go back, if we want
to talk about Ken Middlebrook, and we want to go
back to the issue of transparency and integrity, we need
to remember that after Labor demanded he'd be sack for
being too soft on criminals and he had to move
into state to get a job with a private company.
Right he applied for a job back here in the
Northern Territory as superintendent of the Darwin Prison. There was

(33:14):
an independent panel that selected him as the outstanding candidate
under the Labor government, and mysteriously he was never appointed.
That was thrown out and they redid the selection to
a point somewhere, someone else, somewhere in between point A
and point B, something has happened to make sure he

(33:35):
didn't get that job. So I just I find it
really difficult to cop oh, we're going to talk about
open and openness and transparency and not talk about everything
that happened here with this bloke, because you know, it
goes back to the Gwyn thing. It goes back to
the police thing. Yep. You know, if we really want
to have a look properly into these things, well then
let's not a problem problem and let's be with all

(33:56):
the facts.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Fair enough, fair call.

Speaker 4 (33:58):
I think I want to go to the bigger issue though,
and it's exactly what Jinsen just said. This government was
elected on a platform of reducing crime. They've got five
hundred more people in prison in conditions that by any measure,
are completely unacceptable. Where there's more than sixteen people in
a room people that and no and light twenty three

(34:19):
hours a day, no access to showers, et cetera. And
crime rates have not come down. So it's not working.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
Well, I will say, though, in like, I know that
you said that, Yes, in some instances there is up
to sixteen people in a room, but I want to
be really clear, that's not every single prisoner that's in
that situation. It's you know, we have got we have
certainly got rooms where people have got televisions, they have
got beds, they are quite you know, I'm not saying
that prison is comfortable, nor would I really expect it
to be overly comfortable because people are in there for

(34:47):
a reason. Do I think that sixteen people in one
room is okay? No, I don't. But we are in
a situation where we're trying to like we're literally dealing
with these huge numbers of people continuing to commit crimes.
And I think that's you know, something that we sort
of never talk about is it's like we're just to
commit christ and what we.

Speaker 4 (35:06):
Need to do is address the causes of that. And
what this government is doing is not doing that. It's
not making us any safer, you know what We're all
it's very clear that locking people up, the evidence is
overwhelming that locking people up makes us less safe in
the end, because they come out and they continue to
be sorry, I offended, They continue to offend. And you know,

(35:29):
many people say, you know, I went into prison and
it was like a crime university for me. Actually, you know,
I came out and I knew, you know, I became
more criminal in inverted commons. No, No, I do not.
I want to look at addressing the causes that the
solution is that we put things in place to address
the causes of crime, and we know what they are.

(35:50):
The other thing I want to say just.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
For eight years, so too, Justine like that was the
whole stance that the Labor Party stood for, and it
really it frustrated people, know, and we got to a
point where people were like, we have had an absolute
gutful of this.

Speaker 5 (36:05):
Yeah, look and we've got to accept some responsibility for that.
But the reality is it does take a lot of time.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
We've seen many years Dno.

Speaker 5 (36:14):
Well, I mean yeah, but I mean there needs to
be consistency with policy and legislation, especially consistency. We had
local government local decision making agreements that have been put
in place that we know that we're going to be
over ten years. I think you know from the communities
that I that are those agreements are in place work
really well and it actually the thing I really like

(36:36):
about the local decision making agreements is that when I
go to a community like emy Point the and I
have a meeting with the community, they literally physically have
that document in their hand and they go through all
the aspirations that they laid out that they worked so
hard on for the last I think it took Amy
Point a couple of years and go around, where's this at?
The funding for the school that got upgrades to the

(36:58):
school upgrades that happens. That's really good.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
That stuff is really good. But what do you say
to the people last week? On Friday last week where
from your area, your electorate of daily there were a
number of cars stolen. There were fifteen people who had
to be arrested by the Northern Territory Police who came
into Darwin and ran an absolute muck. Where's the local
decision making there and where is the leadership going? This

(37:26):
is absolute bullshit and it cannot continue.

Speaker 5 (37:29):
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I understand that's
unacceptable behavior, but it means we need to invest back
into the communities program.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Last week you had a group that were aged between
fourteen and fifteen I believe, right up to twenty nine
years old.

Speaker 5 (37:46):
Yeah, and it goes back to the lack of consistency
around policy the past policies in terms of the intervention
under the Howard government. We can talk about the local
government as well, that fits into it. There's been no
consistency around policy when it comes to communities and it's

(38:07):
all government. Well, that that's a separate that's that's part
of the issue. The issue is that to have opportunities
in communities, we need to ensure that people have a
house to live in.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Have people listening to it would be thinking to themselves,
why is there a set of rules for some people
and a totally different set of rules for others. Shouldn't
we all be abiding by the rules and respecting one
another and not breaking the law.

Speaker 5 (38:33):
Yeah, I agree with that, But if you're not going
to address those underlining issues which Justine just talked about,
I'm talking about now we are continually going to see
what is happening in Darwin and Catherine and Alice Springs,
but also not just those communities, in what Air as well,
like people experience experience as well in the communities each

(39:00):
about it yesterday doing a really good job, some bipartisan.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
A really good job. There are I've got both, Duran's
going to take off, thank you.

Speaker 4 (39:11):
And I think also it's really important to say that
there are there are communities, there are places where we
are seeing an alternatives happening, a really good job happening,
like in Maningrida, like in Greet, Ireland, where youth crime
dropped to from eighty percent to one percent. Like that's
not exactly right, but you know that's pretty much it
like there are there are alternatives that work, and that's

(39:31):
what I totally understand what you're saying, your listeners are
saying about. Come on, we need to do something about this.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
It's not good enough.

Speaker 4 (39:38):
There are things that are happening and that's what we
need to invest in. And I just want to go
back to one other thing that Jinsen said earlier about
the correction stuff, which is one of the really big
concerns for me in terms of g fours, he said
they'll be used just for transport. I asked the minister
about that in parliament. Could he guarantee that that's all
these people will be doing and he said no, I.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
Cannot the first stage that it will be only doing that.
So I think the legislation had to be I mean
to make sure. I think that our provisions for the
Commissioner to appoint private stuff stuff, and I think that's
what the provision was done. So I think but at
this stage, as minister said, like, I think it's restricted
to transporting the prisoner's front.

Speaker 4 (40:12):
Not only, but not on any basis.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
Look, we are going to have to unfortunately take a
really quick break. You are listening to Mix one oh
four nine's three sixty is the week that was. You
are listening to Mix one oh four nine's three sixty
is the week that was. We're fast running out of
time this morning, but I do want to speak about
the Port Lace.

Speaker 5 (40:28):
Now.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
We know this earlier in the week, there was a
lot of discussion about this sort of half kicked off
Matt last week, didn't it during the week That was
right towards ten o'clock, and Bill Yan dropped a bit
of a clanger saying that there's been some work done
behind the scenes when it comes to the Port Lace,
further discussion all throughout the week. At first, I thought
to myself, is this just a federal election special? You know,

(40:51):
every time there's any kind of federal election or anything
floating around, the port becomes a hot topic issue again.
But the fact is, I mean, there are some concerns
about you know, about about the port.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Well, it might be a federal election that's driving this
discussion at some Levelkadie, but it's certainly happening in earnest
And as you say, Bill, you Haan kicked it off
here last right, Oh well, he would argue, Luke Gosling
started it. I don't know who started it, but they
all seem to be on a unity ticket, both the
COLP and Labor at a federal and territory level that

(41:27):
they want to see the port return to Australian hands.
So I don't know what happens from here because Lambridge
has made it pretty clear that that lease is not
for sale. So I guess there's only two ways that
it can happen, and one is that if they could.
One is they can prove that Lambridge has breached its contract,
because that's what kicked this off last year there was

(41:48):
the going concern financially about Lanbridge and its parent company.
And I guess the other option is the federal government
can on defense grounds just compulsorily acquire the port, and
there's certainly some calls for it to do so. So
I mean, you know, I know, it's it's an issue
that gets people fired up more than just about any

(42:08):
any other in this place. So it'd be interesting to
see what happens over the next few weeks.

Speaker 3 (42:12):
I think for the CLP government that's match just described
like this is not something that just started now. So
I think this conversation started in November when we've been
made aware of like I think there was like a
financial uncertainty with the current company who is overseeing the port,
and I think that's what the conversation started from. And
recently it was kind of like gone up because of
like I think some of the comments from the current

(42:33):
federal member for Solomon and I think that's so there
was like a delegation that was sent to Canberra and
they had like Connoss yesterday and there was nothing positive
from the federal government. That's where like Minister Yan kind
of like said about like this is kind of like
adding fuel into the existing conversation which is not going
in any direction. But for the CLP government, it's just
to make sure like a thing, the current company who

(42:54):
is running the porch, which is a language and they
have the financial position and I think they are making
sure they are going with the contract and we don't
want in a situation because it's a very strategic position
for the Australia because the landscape for the Australia and
this particular area region has changed over the last one day.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Was it a mistake for the se or P to
lease the port to Landbridge in the first place?

Speaker 3 (43:15):
Again, like this is something that happened like teny years ago.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
No, no, but your opinion do you think it was
it was the wrong thing to do.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
I haven't studied in detail to make an opinion on that,
but again, like a thing for now, it's again like
it's a key strategic priority, especially when the Chinese vessels
were kind of like a thing moving around Australia. So
there are like lots happening.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
So you definitely don't think it should be in Chinese
hands now.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
Again, like it's in a private company, we may just
share with the Chinese holders, and that means, like a thing,
if there is an opportunity, yes, we will be looking forward,
but again like there is a contractual agreement there and
we will be looking on and Minister Yan is all
across and he will be able to provide more information
regarding all these discussions.

Speaker 4 (43:56):
I can answer that question you Askedjins, and I think
it was totally a mistake the cop did in leasing that.
I think it's always a mistake when public assets get
least or sold off for a short term sugar hit.
I don't think it's in the long term interests of
the territory. And you know, in terms of what happens next.
I think we need to be making decisions that are
in the long term interest of our community. I think

(44:17):
it's kind of cute that the Coop is saying, now, oh, well,
that was a long time ago. You know. Leah was
on the committee. Sorry, the Chief Minister was on the
committee when that when when that was discussed and decided
it's not good enough. So that was a long time ago.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Nothing to see this.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Parliament, wasn't it the parliamentary as.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
I think, yeah, and was part of the government of
the time government.

Speaker 4 (44:42):
That's right. So so it's once again about people taking
responsibility and it's about then working out what we're going
to do from here.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
So we're going to take a really quick break before
we wrap up for the morning. You are listening to
Mix one O four Alle's three sixty. It is the
week that was. The hour has flown by this morning.
We are getting a lot of messages through on the
text sign so I'll get to those shortly. We did
get a message a little earlier from Erina Early, who
is indeed from the United Workers Union. She said, corrections
members are ringing me regarding the discussion about corrections budget.

(45:12):
The Corrections budget doesn't cover escorts. Nothing outside the wire
is budgeted for, and that's the reason there's such a
large overtime bill as well as leave etc. That message there,
Thank you Erina for that bit of info. Plenty of
messages on the tech sign, but we are going to
have to wrap up. Justine, I know you are still

(45:32):
really keen for the Northern Territory government to sort of
outline where they're funding around domestic violence, where it's going
to go, when it's going to roll out.

Speaker 4 (45:40):
Yeah, Absolutelycadion in my electorate, there was a tragic death
this week and my thoughts once again go out to
all the people who are affected by that, including many
people in the community who've contacted me. This government has
been in for six months. It came in with a
commitment to the one hundred and eighty million dollars in January.
I heard the minister say that it start to roll

(46:00):
out by the end of the month. In February we
heard her announcement saying that it was going to be
annual fund ongoing funding, which is great, but we still
haven't seen any of it.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
It's now March.

Speaker 4 (46:11):
We still haven't seen well publicly, we haven't seen any
money committed to frontline services, services for prevention or protection
of people, and we're still we're having people who are
dying in our community. If we want to talk about crime,
we can't not talk about this every single time. It's
the biggest cause of crime. It's the biggest use about
please time, it's the biggest amount of time. You know

(46:32):
that people are the biggest taking turns base in prisons.
It's a crisis we've talked about on here before. You know,
I feel like a broken record, but I'm not going
to stop talking about this until we actually see something
happening about it.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
So we absolutely I'd continue to talk about it every
it feels like every single day unfortunately, which is the horrible,
horrible part. So we will continue to talk about it. Justine,
thank you so much for joining us this morning. Justine Davis, C,
Independent Member for Johnson, Thank you. Jins Alse, Minister for
Various Portfolios and a member of the COLP. Thank you

(47:05):
so much for your time this morning, and.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
So thanks. I'm not going to respond to Justina board
leg the conversation earlier, but I think Minister car will
be able to provide response to that. But tomorrow is
the International Women's Day, and I think the day will
be kicking off with walk in the morning from the
Basin Shill Park to the Civic Center and there are
like a lot of other activities happening across the territory
as well, so it's an opportunity for everyone to come

(47:31):
together and celebrate the International Women's Day.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
So have a great weekend, absolutely than tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Tomorrow. Tomorrow is also a grand final day for the
Nightcliff Tigers under fourteen boys will fee so yeah, yeah,
well the underdogs but you never know, believe.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
You never know. Good on them, hopefully they do well.
Thank you all so very much for your time this morning,
and we'll talk to you again very soon. Thank you.