Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Look, it probably wasn't the weekend that the Northern Territory
Police Commissioner Michael Murphy was hoping for either. The Chief
Minister Leah fanocchi Airo issuing a statement late on Saturday night,
saying that it was clear the Police Commissioner Michael Murphy
apm's position was untenable. She said that she had informed
the commissioner that he'd lost the confidence of the government
(00:22):
and gave him the opportunity to resign. Now joining me
in the studio a little earlier than usual so we
could have her on the show live today. It is
the Chief Minister, Leah Finochiiro. Good morning to your Chief Minister.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Good morning Katie and to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Now, Chief Minister, you have known the person at the
center of this daming IKAK report was Michael Murphy since
it was published. Why did it take so long for
you to decide you no longer had confidence in the commissioner.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well, I think what's important to understand is this has
been eight nine days now. It's been incredibly frustrating for
your listeners, Katie, for myself as well. Once that Operation
Apolo statement was put forward by the IKAK, there were
those requirements around confidentiality, and I couldn't do anything that
could lead anyone to understand the identity.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Now, of course, you.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Know, mister Murphy did not declare it was him until
quite late in the peace, until that Thursday. On that Thursday,
then the NTPA certainly came out saying that he could
no longer you know, that he had to resign. On Friday,
I took the opportunity to listen to the NTPA and
to meet with them. On Saturday, I contacted mister Murphy
(01:35):
and told him that his position was untenable and he'd
lost the confidence of government. Of course, over that entire period,
he had the opportunity to resign, and I gave him
that opportunity again on Saturday, and then that was not forthcoming,
and so I've commenced that process now for termination.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
What would have happened had he not outed himself Because
the fact is, I mean, you've lost confidence in him,
The government's lost confidud it's in him. So what would
have happened had he not issued that statement last Thursday?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah, it could just have dragged on a very excruciating
and frustrating period because I still have limitations in the
ikic sense around what I can say publicly, and that
would have continued. And I think this has raised a
really good issue around is the K fit for purpose?
I know, you know, we'll probably cover off on that
a bit later, Katie, but yeah, it's been a very
(02:26):
difficult period. I know people have been saying, oh, you
should have just said it anyway, but as Chief Minister,
I can't just you know, break the law when it
suits me. It's you know, this is a this is
a framework that we have to operate within, and it
it's I don't think it was the right process, but
it's the process that happened.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Well it's not only incredibly frustrating, it's sort of bigg
as belief in a lot of ways. So I'm not
really interested in, you know why you didn't name him earlier.
I guess what I'm interested in is, you know what
changed your mind in this situation since Monday when we
last spoke, Because, as I said, you obviously knew who
that person was, you weren't able to name them for
(03:03):
whatever reason. But you're in a situation where clearly, and
as you've now stated, you do not have confidence in
Michael Murphy. So what changed your mind over that period.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's not that there was a change of mind, it's
just I was limited in what I could say at
the time. So straight away, on that Friday, when the
Operation of Polos statement was made, I wrote a letter
to both the Commissioner and to the CEO of Chief
Minister and Cabinet one to make sure that our process
is across the whole of government and our training was appropriate,
(03:36):
because if this could happen to in such a high
ranking person as a police commissioner, imagine how many recruitment
processes across government happened.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So should you have actually asked him to resign at
that point?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Oh, look, I haven't asked him to resign because I
think when you're at that level he could make up
his own decision around that. But you have now though, right, Well, no,
I have not asked him to resign. I've moved to
start a process of termination. It's still open to him
to resign if he would like, but otherwise.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
This is all still very much in the air. What
happens if he decides he's going to drag his heels.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Well, no, we've commenced a process of termination. So there's
two different things. One is when someone resigns, they resign right,
they walk away.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
The other is where the employer.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Which is not the most appropriate word in this context,
but just for the sake of the conversation, where the
employer then initiates the process to remove the person.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
So that's the process we under it.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So should you have done that when you learned that
it was him? When that IICAC report came out?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
So I commenced the process straight away of understanding what
has happened, you know, what are you doing about this?
Those types of things, and then obviously over the course
of the week to get to the point where we did,
the person had to be made public.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I mean, did you only make this move because there
was the concern that Justin Davis, the Independent member for Johnson,
had threatened to name him under parliamentary privilege.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
No, that's entirely a matter for her.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
I think I said at the time that you know,
that's completely within her remit to make that decision. You know,
did that have an influence in eventually why the commissioner
came out?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I don't know, but ultimately they're separate processes.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
So have you spoken to Michael Murphy over the weekend.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Yes, So I spoke to him on Saturday and I
explained to him, you know, that he had no longer
had the trust and confidence of the government, that his
position was untenable.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
And how did he respond. Look, I won't I won't.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Go into the conversation, but essentially, you know, I put
those things to him, and now there's a process. I've
been really clear with territories about the process, because again
it will probably be frustrating for some of your listeners.
So just for clarity for everyone, we've now commenced that
process of termination. What that looks like is mister Murphy
has to be afforded natural justice as appropriate. There is
(06:03):
then a period where Cabinet has an involvement, Executive Council
has an involvement, and then ultimately it will end up
in some form of recommendation to the administrator who It
sounds like it's.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Going to be long drawn out and potentially very expensive.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Not necessarily, not necessarily, it just is an important process,
so we just have to see that through in terms
of expensive. I was also very transparent in my statement
on Saturday night. The employment determinations around a police commissioner
allow or mandate effectively six months remuneration. So that will
(06:43):
be a cost to the taxpayer, but we've been very
upfront about that.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So could be looking at half a million dollars quarter
of a million dollars.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Look, it will be six months of whatever the police commissioners, sorry,
remuneration I should say not.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Say okay, all right, Now Martin Dole is now the
acting police Commissioner.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Why mister Doll, So he's currently the deputy as sorry.
Prior to Saturday, he was the deputy commissioner. So on
Saturday mister Murphy was asked to go on leave, I
immediately put in place Commissioner acting Commissioner Doll because I
want continuity for our police stability. Police just need to
get on with the job as best they can, as
hard as this period has been, and try not to
(07:25):
get bogged down in this so certainty was important. So
mister Dole was deputy commissioner, so he moves into that
acting role as he has done several times before.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Was the now acting Commissioner Martin Dole on the panel
in which Michael Murphy was on?
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, I've now been aware that he was on that
panel just this morning, So is.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
That appropriate that he is now the acting police Commissioner.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
So he certainly is not part of the statement that
was made in Operation Apolo. I can only deal with
what's in front of me, and ultimately, as deputy his
role is to act up. I've got full confidence in
his ability to do that, and we need stability across
the force. He put out a fantastic message to police
on Saturday night, you know, expressing to them our heart
(08:11):
for thanks for their hard work, that there's a big
job ahead and we're just really want our police focused
on keeping our community, saying.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Look, I you know, I don't really have an opinion
either way or whether Martin Dole should be acting in
the role or not. But from you know, just from
looking at this from the outside in, I sort of go,
all right, we've got a Northern Territory Police Commissioner who's
had to stand down as a result of this EYECAC report.
You've then now got the Deputy commissioner who was on
(08:38):
that same panel. Now I totally take on what you
were saying that he is not part of the Ikak report,
but the optics are not good.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Well, you know, I don't agree with that, Katie, And
ultimately I mean, people can tear people down at every
level for as long as they want to. I just
don't have information in front of me that would make
me think any otherwise. I think in all of my
interactions with mister Dole, he's been exemplary. He's obviously a
long standing territory cop. He is the Deputy Commissioner and
(09:10):
it is entirely appropriate for him to act up in
the role. There has been no wrongdoing being asserted, and
I've not had any indication to the country, so people
can form their own judgments. Again, my job is about
certainty and stability going forward, and that's what we've delivered.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Chief Minister. Is there going to be a review into
the other people who've been appointed to senior executive roles
over the last year.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Look, I think that will all come out in the wash, Katie.
Right now, we've got to go through this first process
and then ultimately move forward from there. What I want
right now is that certainty in our police. We need
business as usual. This has been a very awful time
for our police, and you know, things are just starting
to really be getting back on track. Attritions going down powers.
(09:58):
We're passing legislation to give police, better powers, We've got
the retention bonus on foot, lots of good things happening,
and I just want to have police to know that
their government supports them and to keep going. They're doing
a great job. We need them strong, and I don't
want other distractions at this time.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Absolutely I agree with that, And I mean, the fact is,
there is so many changes underway really at you know,
going in a direction that the community voted for. Yes,
but now you've got a situation where we are, indeed,
you know, whether we want to be or not in
the situation that we're currently in. I mean, does it
(10:35):
instill confidence in the force though if we have potentially
got other executives at the top that are maybe in
positions that will people could be questioning whether they should be.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
But I think you know, at the end of the day,
what we have is the operation of Polar report. That's
all we can sorry, the operation of Polar statement. That's
all we can deal with with what's in front of us,
and that had a very specific instance in it. Now
you know, to that extent, we have to move forward,
and that's what we're doing. It's about making sure that
(11:07):
we give that stability, that confidence that certainty to the
police leadership so that it can be business as usual
and we are achieving good things.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Caane.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
There's five hundred more people in prison than there were
six months ago, and that's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So, I mean, I'll go back to though, the question
does there need to either be a review into other
people who have been appointed or an inquiry into this,
because you've got to start to question whether you know,
whether the force have got confidence, whether the remainder of
the force. So, I mean, we all saw the statement
that the Police Association issued on Friday, Like you've touched
(11:42):
on you know, people are hurting at the moment. It
is disruption is probably a very mild way of putting us.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yes, yeah, indeed, look Cannie, I haven't ruined anything in
or out.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
But right now my focus is on this.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
You know, at the end of the day, what happens
in a month or two months or three months time
will happen and we will chant the right course. I
think Territorians have seen that we're a government of action.
They've seen that community safety is our number one priority.
They have no reason to believe that we are not
doing everything we can in the best interest of supporting police,
and so we just have to go through this next process.
(12:17):
My priority will be on this top issue, and when
we move through that, we'll get to the next thing.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Are you concerned that there could be systemic issues within
the force when you look at jobs for mates.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
No, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
You're not concerned about that at all. No. Okay, Now,
what steps are going to be taken to find this
new commissioner?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
So there is no recruitment process on foot. I want
to be very clear about that. We have started a
process for termination. That is where our focus is. The
next steps is natural justice and we'll move through the
rest of the stages.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So at this point in time, no steps being made
to find the next commissioner. We are simply trying to
get rid of the last.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Well, what we're doing is absolutely not recruiting. There is
no recruitment process. I'm not looking around. There were some
rumors yesterday that popped up about who I.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Might like to see. It's just not true.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
There is no process on foot for that whatsoever. The
process that is on foot is starting the process of termination.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Chief Minister. This whole situation has been, you know, a debarcle.
I want to say over the last week or so.
The you know, with the IKAK, should we be in
a situation where we can actually name a public servant
at the center of a situation like this one.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Well, I think it does raise a really important question
that if the IKAK deems something so serious that they
make a public statement about it, at what level do
they afford the anonymity protections? And so if that was
a member of parliament, for example, say exactly the same situation,
but a member of Parliament, the statement would have named them.
So I think very much the community would expect if
(13:58):
you're a senior public servant that there would be naming.
But I think it goes beyond this KDE.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I mean, I would say he is higher than a
senior public servant. You are talking about somebody that is
running the entire Northern Territory Police Force.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah, and again, these are the decisions that the IQQ
made and they're theirs to own and you know, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Within Northern Territory government legislation.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah, that's right, but they're the ones who make the decision.
It's not me that makes the decision, it's them, and
so they have to own that. Now going forward, I
think there's a lot of things we need to look
at with the ICAC, you know, including how does it
interact without other integrity bodies.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Territorians have spent thirty.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Five million dollars on IICQ, and I think the feedback
I get from people is they don't have a lot
of confidence.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Does it need to go? What needs to happen?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I think we need to be looking at how it
interacts with other integrity functions because Territorians pay handsomely for
all of those as well. For example, I think a
couple of weeks ago, there was an ic statement around
it a public servant taking leave. There was a leave issue,
and some people are questioning, well, why is the i
CACK spending time and money looking at that?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Is that really an issue for them?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Is that better done by the agency or the Public
Service commissioner or the ombardsman? You know, I think there's
a lot to unpack here. Again, in the fullness of time,
we'll get to those issues. And you know, we're committed
to dealing with the IKKE this year because people are.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Still paying for two K commissioners as well.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, well that's exactly right. I mean, I guess right
now though, we're sort of blurring two situations. In this instance,
the IKAK did do their job properly and you know,
and obviously release the report last week. In terms of
the naming of public servants seeing your public servants, if
indeed that change is made, how quickly could that happen
(15:48):
and how would it work.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I wouldn't be minded to just tinker with the ICAC act.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
I don't think that will really yield long term benefits
to territory. And so I think if we were to
do something, we'd be having a bigger discussion about what
needs to be done.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
So is that on the cards.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Well, I think that needs to be done this year,
particularly in light of the fact we continue to pay
for two K commissions. So a full review of the
ka I don't know if it'll be a full review,
but we've certainly you know, a lot of issues have
come up over the years and territorians lack confidence in
that institution. Now it's very important that, of all things,
people have confidence in the Ikak, the Office of the Ikak,
(16:25):
and when they don't, it causes a lot of problems.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So I think we've got work to do there.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
It's not an urgent priority obviously, because we've been very
focused on law and order and economic reform and that's
what people have seen over the last six months.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Chief Minister, what do you think this whole situation says
about the Northern Territory Police Force? And really what is
your message to the police listening this morning, who are
feeling probably pretty disillusioned about this whole situation.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, I think they'll be at very wide mix of
feelings amongst our police and you know that is regrettable.
They're doing a great job and they don't deserve to
suffer the you know, some of them are feeling like
it's damaged the uniform, you know, the brand.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Some of them are feeling let down, and we stand
with you.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
That is why we're so focused on giving police the
powers they need on community safety. There are many good
things ahead and this, you know, it just has to
be seen as a bump in the road because we've
got to move forward. We've got a bigger job ahead
of us, and ultimately we'll move through this stage and
ultimately be stronger and move forward.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Chief Minister la Finocchiaro, we appreciate you joining us in
the studio this morning. I know you've got other commitments.
Appreciate you being able to come in a little earlier
than usual.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Thank you, take care everyone.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Thank you