Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So an eighteen year old man is today's set to
(00:02):
appear in the Darwin Local Court charged with the murder
of Much Love Territory and Linford Fike. We knew when
we spoke to the Chief Minister last Thursday that this
eighteen year old must have been facing some serious previous
charges after we'd revealed that he'd been bailed by the
Supreme Court. Now we then heard from Leam Mendes from
(00:23):
the Australian newspaper the extent of the alleged previous offending.
He was on bail for a raft of serious violent offenses,
including allegedly raping and assaulting a fourteen year old girl.
The teenager was first granted bail by an on call judge,
as I understand it laid in twenty twenty three. Is
also been charged with, as I said, depriving a person
(00:45):
of liberty, assaulting and resisting police and allegedly spitting on
an officer or an emergency worker. Now I cannot tell
you how many times over the weekend I've been asked
how was this person on bail and what do you
need to do to be remarded in custody If alleged
rape is not serious enough. The Chief Minister, Leafanocchiaro joins
(01:09):
me in the studio. Good morning to your Chief Minister.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Good morning Katie and to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Now, first off, why was such a serious violent offender
granted bail?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Look, it's the number one question everyone's asking, and obviously
details are are unfolding about the person's alleged defenses that
led up to that original bail in the first place.
But it sparked a bigger, more important conversation about again
having to go back to Parliament to strengthen bow laws
even further. And that's why I've urgently recalled parliament for Wednesday.
(01:41):
This is too important to our community to leave for
any longer than absolutely necessary. So Wednesday we will seek
to create an overarching principle, whether it's for use or
for adults, so that all courts must consider the ongoing
safety of the community first before they consider all the
other reason why someone might be able to be bailed.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Look, I'll get into a bit more detail about that
in the moment, but do you know if police oppose
bail for this teenager?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah? I don't have that detail, Katie, but clearly this
has been a matter that's been going on for some time.
I think.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Guess what I'm wondering is if the police had a
post bail and I don't know whether they did or didn't,
but how he's been bailed.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, exactly, and again I think more details will come
to light. There's obviously caution to exercise. I mean, the
alleged offender is before court today and no one wants
to jeopardize whatever it might to happen next. But it
is important that the community have whatever public information can
be made available, and we're seeing media reporting on that,
which is really good because territories deserve to know absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Now, as you said, obviously parliament's being recalled to sit
on Wednesday. You've directed the Attorney General's Department to urgently
draft this legislation, this legislation to strengthen declance law with
additional chain just to that bail Act. So tell me
exactly what those changes are going to see and how
they're going to stop this from happening again.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
So we haven't finalized what it looks like yet. Obviously,
that's work we've been doing furiously since late last week
and it's something we were looking at as a result
of another balle incident that happened a couple of months
ago where it was flagged that this could be a
strong move forward. We've seen in other jurisdictions, for example
New South Wales it increased remand for youth offenders by
(03:28):
thirty two percent. So we're really confident it will be
a strong measure, but the principle of it and it
won't be identical to New South Wales or Victoria because
obviously our rules are different and we want to go
the furthest We want to have the strongest possible bail laws.
But in a simplistic way, it's the very first test,
so that the judges have to consider whether they are
(03:49):
satisfied that that person is not an ongoing risk to
the community. If they can't satisfy themselves of that, that's
the end of it. The person's reminded. Whereas right now
the situation is there are for and against, which means
someone starts on the back foot or starts on the
basis that they will be about and then there's a
number of things judges can consider to let them, you know,
(04:10):
be a member of the community until their court day.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
How on earth are we still in this situation after
declan lavity.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Is diff yeah, and that's something we're looking at as well.
We continue to comb through what happened in this so
that we can make sure we're plugging any gaps. Declan's
law has been effective. We've seen remand numbers go up.
People who were being bowed aren't being boud. But again, no, unfortunately,
no law around bail is going to end in a
one hundred percent no bail outcome. What we have to
(04:39):
do though, is make sure the right rules are there
for the judges to a book.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
But we are in a situation right where we know
that that the person who murdered decland Lavity was also
on but yes, at the time of that murder, so
the community was screaming out at that point in time.
We also know that there's been other incidents in the
last six months Saloon where we've had a baby skull
fractured allegedly at the hands of you who are on bail.
(05:06):
The person who was allegedly involved in the assault of
Trevor Miller in Palmerston was allegedly on bail. Why are
people allegedly committing serious offenses bailed and then able to
hurt people. I mean, like we we're hearing from you,
We're hearing from the government that Declan's Law is working,
(05:26):
but we keep seeing examples of it not. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So it's important to remember Declan's Law came in. It
was about six or eight January. So the youth for this,
you know, with the awful sign history situation. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
And there's been others. We've talked about them as well, Katie,
there's and and that's why we're in this point. So
(05:51):
we've been doing a big rewrite of the Youth Justice Act,
which looks at a number of different things around bail.
So it's a huge piece of work we've been doing
and that will be ready for July. But clearly, with
the gravity of what is going on, I've taken out
the biggest hardest chunk I can to bring it forward
for Wednesday. We will still do then all that other
(06:13):
work under the Youth Justice X So. I think one
of the examples I gave to you last week, Katie
was we've got to fix this issue where arrest, you know,
detention is a last resort for young people as well.
I don't think it should be, and that's something our
government is committed to changing. That's all part of the
youth justice re right.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
So, in a situation where somebody is charged with allegedly
raping somebody, if they are a youth, is detention still
a last resort?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yes? So currently right now, under the laws that we've
inherited and the mess we've inherited, detention has to be
considered as a last resort. So that's something we're going
to get rid of.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Do you think that that meets the community's expectations that
if somebody and I'm not talking about you know, any
alleged defenders, I'm just in general. Yeah, do you think
you know what kind of offense do you think somebody
should not be bailed for? Because I'll tell you right now,
I think when you're talking about the alleged rape of
(07:12):
somebody or unalleged knife crime where somebody's been stabbed, the
expectation of the community is that they're actually not then
on bail and able to continue to offense.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And that's exactly why for this serious offenses we will
have this new test and that will be ready for Wednesday.
And equally, going back to your question around my view
on detention as a last resort, that's why we're removing it.
We just don't think it has a place in Northern
Territory laws, and so that's why it's part of that.
So how quickly is that going to happen unclear right
(07:42):
now whether that bit will be part of what we
do Wednesday or whether it will stay as part of
the bigger piece of work, because there's a number of
bow components that we're doing with the Youth Justice rewrite.
But one hundred percent on Wednesday we will be debating
until the very end. We'll sit there as long as
it takes this over arching principle for serious offenses around
satisfying that their community threat isn't there.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Do you think we've got a situation here though, where
you're going to attempt to continue to strengthen bail and
we're going to have judges find ways to bail offenders.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, there will always be a level of discretion and
I know, you know a lot of people in the
community will say, well, anyone charged should just have no bail,
and you know, it's a it's a complicated area of
law in the sense that people who are bailed are
still presumed innocent until proven guilty. It's different if a
person is sentenced, but I'm not making excuses for it.
(08:36):
We've clearly not hit the mark. And I mean Territorians
know we've had the Royal Commission into Youth Justice, which
has led to So is that terrible outcome?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Is that where this detention as the last resort has
come from.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, all of these weakening of the Youth Justice Acts
all spurred out of the Royal Commission with whether then
the Gunner Labor government and then the files going. You know,
we've had labor for a long time and they continuously
went back and watered down, water down, and that's the
mess where fixing and we've got you know, it's it's
system wide. It's not just fix the law and then
it works, you know, it's you then have to address
(09:10):
the justice system, which we've been working through corrections obviously
has been a mess, which is really on track now.
So there's a lot, there's the inheritance of it is huge.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
I mean, there is so much. But I really want
to stay on track because I know what the community's
expectation is this morning is they actually want you to
fix it, and they want you to fix it fast.
They understand it's complex, they understand that you've only been
in government for a short amount of time. But quite honestly,
they want to feel safe. They want to feel safe
(09:40):
to go to work, they want to feel safe to
go into their beds at night and know they're not
going to get broken into and that somebody is not
going to rock up with a machete and stab them
who's on bail. That's what the community whinds at the
moment now, Chief Minister, I understand that there's got to
be a separation of powers when you talk about judiciary
(10:01):
and when you talk about the expectations of the community,
and when you talk about the laws and the legislation
and the interference or potential interference from politicians. So I
get that there's got to be a separation of powers.
But what can you do to ensure that the judiciary
understands the expectations of the Northern Territory community.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, so there's a few things we can do. Number
one is, obviously the Attorney General has contact with the judiciary.
Now she can't direct them, but she can make sure
they understand our priorities and that has been done. And
then there's making sure that our laws are fit for purpose.
And so you know, we've gone in We've fixed a
number of laws. We've done a number of things already
(10:43):
and that work continues, as I explained about the Youth
Justice Act, and unfortunately crime continues. Now we've seen some
good early results when you compared February this year to
February last year. Obviously we've had the most horrific and
tragic death of a much love man life week and
continues to be high levels of violent crime. And I
(11:04):
wish I could snap my fingers and fix it all yesterday.
But some of it is lower hanging fruit, like what
we did urgently just eight weeks after coming into government.
Are there is more complicated like our use justice at review.
But we are throwing everything we can at this and
often once we fix one thing, we find another flaw
and so then it's about putting that focus onto it.
(11:26):
But we have a subcommittee of Cabinet who spends their
time focused solely on this issue, Katie, and it's very
important to the territory just on.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
The judiciary meeting the expectation of the community. Are there
any steps that the Northern Territory government that you, as
the Chief Minister can take in terms of decisions being
made that do not meet the community's expectations. I mean,
we had a situation on the weekend, Samara Lavitag taking
to social media to voice so heartbreak of course about
(11:57):
the situation. But she said the judge in this situation
was as culpable as the alleged defender and called on
them to stand down. She said if they don't that
she'd be writing to the Attorney General and asking for
their position to be reassessed. Where are things at with that?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, so, and look, I hear the community's frustration. So
the Parliament makes the laws, the judiciary interpret the laws
and implement them. There will always be that level of
discretion and we're doing everything we can to make sure
it's narrowed and focused and delivering the outcomes that the
community expect. But you know, a judge is a judge
(12:39):
for life. Effectively, there's no reprimanded government can do around that.
And you know people can understand why that's important as well.
So you know, it's one of those things. But it's
very important that as law makers we continue to make
sure we have the best laws. But let's not forget
there's the root causes of crime is very important work
(13:00):
we're doing as well, so a lot of the time
we talk about police corrections and courts and that's the
spiky end at the moment, but we're doing a lot
of underlying work with children and families, education and of
course housing because as you know, we've got to stop
kids who are eighteen now committing knife crime were ten
when Labor came in and watered down the laws. So
(13:20):
you know, we've got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, Look, I want to ask earlier this year, you
and I spoke at length, and you've touched on this
just a moment ago, but we spoke at length about
the granting of compassionate bail to the teenagers who subsequently
abscondered while attending a funeral. Now, Chief Justice Michael Grant
took the unusual step of issuing a public statement following that,
(13:42):
as you touched on a moment ago, but in it
he outlined the factors that judges must consider when assessing
the granting of bail for a youth. One of those
includes the need to consider all other options, of course
before reminding of youth in custody, as you just touched on,
and the need to strengthen and preserve the relationship between
(14:03):
the youth and the youth's family, the cognitive capacity, health
and developmental needs of the youth, and if the youth
is aboriginal, any issues that arise due to the youth's aboriginality,
including cultural background, ties to extend firmly or place, and
any other relevant cultural issues or obligation. Do you think
(14:27):
that this factor is taking precedence over the safety of community.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Well, we don't have that overarching safety of community test,
so that's what will do Wednesday. And then yes, as
you've read out, I mean there's this long laundry list
of things judges can consider. And I think going back
to the larger money incident, does it matter if you're
aboriginal or not if you have a loved one passed away?
I mean, these are all the questions. So first step Wednesday,
(14:53):
overarching test community safety. Then as part of that Youth
Justice Act review all of those other things you read out.
They're the ones that are on the table in terms
of do these you know, are these required, do they
make any sense whatsoever? And are they leading to perverse outcomes?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
All right, so one of those again, as we touched
on briefly before, but I just want to delve into
a bit more is in the Youth Justice Act. There
is section sixty four A which states that the Youth
Court may dismiss charges one subject to sub section two.
The Youth Justice Court may, at any stage of the
proceedings against a youth in respect to an offense, dismiss
(15:34):
the charge in respect of the offense, whether or not
the court finds the charge proven against the youth. Is
this essentially going to mean that any changes you make
to bail if the offender is a youth, which in
many cases that we've spoken about previously they have been,
that the court can still at any stage dismiss this
(15:55):
charge until the Youth Justice Act changes. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So, and that's all the work we're looking at now.
And as you as your listeners listening to that will
be horrified that that's the case. And so it is. Again.
Now what we're doing is a deep dive because sometimes
if you change I can you know, it's easy to
think we'll just rip that bit out, but then it
has this cascade. So we're looking at it as a
whole to make sure what we present back to Parliament
(16:18):
is comprehensive so that the courts and the police can
implement it properly, because what we don't want is to
create further loopholes or inconsistency or any other issue. We
want this to be crystal clear about how the law works,
what the expectation is. But you'll find, you know, if
anyone needs some bedtime reading, if you read through that thing,
it'll be horribly well To me.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
It seems as though we have got so many holes
in the legislation at the moment that are all you know,
that are all in different ways, and they may have
been well intended at the time, right, they might have
been well intended, but they are all there to support
the alleged defender.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Exactly where is the support for the victor? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Where is the changes that are going to meet the
community's expectations of what we you know, what we want.
Like on the weekend, Leah, I went to nightcliff shops. Right,
I went to Woolworths because I thought this will be
the safest place to go after what's happened last week.
I saw a group of teenage girls pegging soft drinks
(17:22):
at a security guard. Right, they were underneath the CCTV.
There is a police station two hundred meters away. It
beggars belief, the absolute garbage behavior that people are seeing
at the moment. We had a man stabbed at a
servo on the weekend. We had a Casuarina petrol station
(17:45):
held up allegedly with an armed you know, armed with
a knife. Like it's just disgusting behavior and we've all
had a gutful of it.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, I agree with you completely, Katie. And again just
the behavior of those girls you saw, the lawlessness is
unbelievable because they've never faced a consequence. And what we've
got when when I talked about the broken system before,
I think you encapsulated it. Well, we've had an entire
system built over the last decade around the historical trauma
of the offender rather than the focus on a safe
(18:18):
community and the protection of victims or people from becoming victims.
And that's the work where I'm doing. We've had royal
commissions and coronials and every other person coming out saying, oh,
we've got to cut all the person who's done the
wrong thing more and it hasn't worked. It has led
to young people thinking they are and in some cases
being above the law, and ultimately the community is the
(18:42):
one paying the price. For that, and some have paid
the ultimate price with their life, Katie. So it is
a massive issue. But we must look at people's right
to be safe above the historical trauma of the person
doing the wrong thing, and then stop young people from
experiencing that trauma so that they can grow up to
be functioning members of our community.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
How do you, though, how do you go against or
how do you stand up to I don't know what
the right word is, But in recent weeks, you know,
we've had a situation as well where we've got judges, well,
one judge who had suspended the four year sentence of
a woman who pleaded guilty to a violent crime against
a sixteen year old girl, citing inhumane conditions at the
(19:23):
Alice Springs Police watchhouse. Now that watchhouse was described as overcrowded,
with up to twenty women in a cell and having
the main source of water on top of toilets that
often filled with vomit. I mean, how are you then
going to contend with the fact that you've got judges
as well who are concerned about the fact that the
jails are two full.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah. Well, I honestly, that is a well ventilated one
that really people feel Miss the Mark Katie as well.
And yeah, our prisons are full, but the flip side
is you put these people on the street and that's
not okay, not in my book, not in any bodies book.
And so we continue to build more beds. We've got
another one hundred coming online very soon. We've already built
(20:06):
over five hundred and eight months and we've filled every
single one KDI, so it shows you the demand. And
again this was just another area that that you know,
labor pretended didn't need to be done, and here we
are building prisons like no tomorrow when we could be
building a nation building infrastructure, economic building infrastructure. But we've
got to focus on the basics. Until the territory is safe,
(20:26):
nothing else good can come from it. And so it
remains our number one priority. And in a couple of
weeks there will be the budget and people will see
the hundreds of millions of dollars being poured into this
because we've got to throw everything at it.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
All right, Chief Minister, we're pressed for time. I'm sure
you are as well, but I do want to ask
you a couple of quick ones. What is going on
with this Nightcliff Police Station? Is it going to be
opened up as a proper police station because people have
had enough of what's going on around it. And my
understanding is that when all that public housing moved into Nightcliff,
you know, when Saint Vinnie's moved in Nightcliff, Well that
(21:01):
happened more recently, but there was an understanding that there
was going to be a greater police presence in the
suburb of Nightcliff.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, people in Nightcliff were tricked. People in Nightcliffe were
absolutely politically tricked by the previous Labor local member and
her government. That station should never have been built. I'm
very clearly on record for forever in a day of ASI. Yes,
and so we cannot just turn that into a general
judist police station because people are like, well, the building's there.
(21:30):
This is a highly operational decision by police. Now it
is full of Territory Safety Division operate out of there
and neighborhood watch. But when you call triple zero, there
are not police being running to their cars, jumping in
a vent and running out of there. Now. Commissioner Acting
Assistant Commissioner were said the other day that you know,
even if it was, it wouldn't have necessarily saved mis effect.
(21:52):
But what I know is that we as a government
have absolutely committed to not making political police stations because
it impacts the operations of police. And people in Gray
are saying, well, why can't I have one? And people
in Kuram will say why can't I have one? The
same applies to Nightcliffe. Now, I'm it is sad that
those people were tricked and that this political ploy happened,
(22:14):
But ultimately I've made sure we have a police infrastructure
master plan so that it is not a political thing
that you can just decide where a police station goes.
And we will continue to look at what we do
with Nightcliff station going forward, because it's not somewhere where
GDS are deployed, a bit like Behma Behramer police station
has police in it obviously and specialized units, but we
(22:35):
don't deploy GDS from there. That's from Casarina.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Okay. Now we know that the site there where sun
Bill was set to build quite a large building. Some
are asking, or some are saying that what has been
touted is that it could become affordable housing or public housing.
That is that going to happen.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Well, that's a matter for some build I mean it
could very well be. And I believe it's a the
large apartment building.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And the government's not got plans to take over that
side or anything.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Not that, not that I'm aware of. That might be
a different discussion. But look, there's no question that the
I'm sure the increase in density has impacted the Nightcliffer
as well. Again, the Labor member did that in our
own electorate. It's just, you know, we've just got to
continue to work on these issues. We've also got our
big housing reform piece coming up in a couple of months,
(23:26):
Gatty two, which will really reframe public housing.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
What about Saint Phinni's you know, it's also been question
whether they're going to extend their time in coconut growth.
Some are saying that that's had an impact to the
antisocial behavior.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yet we are hearing little bits about that. Obviously, Vinis
are trying to do their best there. My understanding is
they've got about eighteen months left and that site.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I mean, the thing is like they do wonderful work.
There is no doubt about that. So I don't want
this to be you know, having a crack at then.
But wherever that work is done, there is antisocial behavior. Unfortunately,
nearby Stuart Park, the playground there could not be used
for years and years and years. For the first time
in the last couple of weeks have seen families using
(24:10):
that playground. But the point is then, unfortunately, you know,
whether we want it to be the case or not,
unfortunately you do see that anti social those antisocial issues
in some cases end up congregating around that area. So
could it be an outreach service? So I mean, does
the government need to look at talking to Vinnie's about
(24:32):
the way that things could be done differently, Maybe they
need a bus that drives around and helps people. I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
We've certainly had a couple of conversations with Vinnie and
also Larry kia Nation as well. They're looking to partner
with Vinnies about what something could look like. So I
think there's a lot of opportunity there, and of course
location is absolutely critical and that work continues. Again, it's
something we've picked up on labor promise to move it
out of Stuart Park, but then didn't find any for
(25:00):
Venice to go, so that has become a problem for
just a different suburb of course. But look, the work
is happening and I know everyone wants it done yesterday,
as do I Katie, because it's really difficult to live
your life free when you're not you know, when you're
making decisions about what time you go somewhere, whether you
bring the kids. That is not okay. And again, what
(25:22):
we've seen is an entire system wide reform to care
more about the offender than we do about people to
be safe, and unfortunately some parts of that are going
to take longer than other parts to fix.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You finished it, I mean, you are You're gonna get
pushed back from some saying that you know that that
youths do need rights and that you know that they
shouldn't be lost up. You're going to get pushed back
on that. I mean, are you going to stand up
to those people that push back and so that you're
going too hard or that you're you know, what you're
doing is not going to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Of course we will, just like well, you know, if
people think back to eight weeks into our government when
we pass that reducing crime package, people were howling from
the rooftops about that, you know, and again Labor and
the Green Independent and the other Independent did haven't supported
us on our Laura and order agenda, and it'd be
very interesting on Wednesday to see how are labor, how
(26:15):
is Kat McNamara, and how is Justine Davies going to
vote on Wednesday? And that's where you should be asking
your local member of Parliament.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well, Leah Financiaro, I know that's been quite an extended
period of time for you this morning to be in here.
I appreciate your time and appreciate you taking the time
to answer all of those questions. We'll catch up with
you again soon.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Take care everyone.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Thank you,
So an eighteen year old man is today's set to
(00:02):
appear in the Darwin Local Court charged with the murder
of Much Love Territory and Linford Fike. We knew when
we spoke to the Chief Minister last Thursday that this
eighteen year old must have been facing some serious previous
charges after we'd revealed that he'd been bailed by the
Supreme Court. Now we then heard from Leam Mendes from
(00:23):
the Australian newspaper the extent of the alleged previous offending.
He was on bail for a raft of serious violent offenses,
including allegedly raping and assaulting a fourteen year old girl.
The teenager was first granted bail by an on call judge,
as I understand it laid in twenty twenty three. Is
also been charged with, as I said, depriving a person
(00:45):
of liberty, assaulting and resisting police and allegedly spitting on
an officer or an emergency worker. Now I cannot tell
you how many times over the weekend I've been asked
how was this person on bail and what do you
need to do to be remarded in custody If alleged
rape is not serious enough. The Chief Minister, Leafanocchiaro joins
(01:09):
me in the studio. Good morning to your Chief Minister.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Good morning Katie and to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Now, first off, why was such a serious violent offender
granted bail?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Look, it's the number one question everyone's asking, and obviously
details are are unfolding about the person's alleged defenses that
led up to that original bail in the first place.
But it sparked a bigger, more important conversation about again
having to go back to Parliament to strengthen bow laws
even further. And that's why I've urgently recalled parliament for Wednesday.
(01:41):
This is too important to our community to leave for
any longer than absolutely necessary. So Wednesday we will seek
to create an overarching principle, whether it's for use or
for adults, so that all courts must consider the ongoing
safety of the community first before they consider all the
other reason why someone might be able to be bailed.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Look, I'll get into a bit more detail about that
in the moment, but do you know if police oppose
bail for this teenager?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah? I don't have that detail, Katie, but clearly this
has been a matter that's been going on for some time.
I think.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Guess what I'm wondering is if the police had a
post bail and I don't know whether they did or didn't,
but how he's been bailed.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, exactly, and again I think more details will come
to light. There's obviously caution to exercise. I mean, the
alleged offender is before court today and no one wants
to jeopardize whatever it might to happen next. But it
is important that the community have whatever public information can
be made available, and we're seeing media reporting on that,
which is really good because territories deserve to know absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Now, as you said, obviously parliament's being recalled to sit
on Wednesday. You've directed the Attorney General's Department to urgently
draft this legislation, this legislation to strengthen declance law with
additional chain just to that bail Act. So tell me
exactly what those changes are going to see and how
they're going to stop this from happening again.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
So we haven't finalized what it looks like yet. Obviously,
that's work we've been doing furiously since late last week
and it's something we were looking at as a result
of another balle incident that happened a couple of months
ago where it was flagged that this could be a
strong move forward. We've seen in other jurisdictions, for example
New South Wales it increased remand for youth offenders by
(03:28):
thirty two percent. So we're really confident it will be
a strong measure, but the principle of it and it
won't be identical to New South Wales or Victoria because
obviously our rules are different and we want to go
the furthest We want to have the strongest possible bail laws.
But in a simplistic way, it's the very first test,
so that the judges have to consider whether they are
(03:49):
satisfied that that person is not an ongoing risk to
the community. If they can't satisfy themselves of that, that's
the end of it. The person's reminded. Whereas right now
the situation is there are for and against, which means
someone starts on the back foot or starts on the
basis that they will be about and then there's a
number of things judges can consider to let them, you know,
(04:10):
be a member of the community until their court day.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
How on earth are we still in this situation after
declan lavity.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Is diff yeah, and that's something we're looking at as well.
We continue to comb through what happened in this so
that we can make sure we're plugging any gaps. Declan's
law has been effective. We've seen remand numbers go up.
People who were being bowed aren't being boud. But again, no, unfortunately,
no law around bail is going to end in a
one hundred percent no bail outcome. What we have to
(04:39):
do though, is make sure the right rules are there
for the judges to a book.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
But we are in a situation right where we know
that that the person who murdered decland Lavity was also
on but yes, at the time of that murder, so
the community was screaming out at that point in time.
We also know that there's been other incidents in the
last six months Saloon where we've had a baby skull
fractured allegedly at the hands of you who are on bail.
(05:06):
The person who was allegedly involved in the assault of
Trevor Miller in Palmerston was allegedly on bail. Why are
people allegedly committing serious offenses bailed and then able to
hurt people. I mean, like we we're hearing from you,
We're hearing from the government that Declan's Law is working,
(05:26):
but we keep seeing examples of it not. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So it's important to remember Declan's Law came in. It
was about six or eight January. So the youth for this,
you know, with the awful sign history situation. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
And there's been others. We've talked about them as well, Katie,
there's and and that's why we're in this point. So
(05:51):
we've been doing a big rewrite of the Youth Justice Act,
which looks at a number of different things around bail.
So it's a huge piece of work we've been doing
and that will be ready for July. But clearly, with
the gravity of what is going on, I've taken out
the biggest hardest chunk I can to bring it forward
for Wednesday. We will still do then all that other
(06:13):
work under the Youth Justice X So. I think one
of the examples I gave to you last week, Katie
was we've got to fix this issue where arrest, you know,
detention is a last resort for young people as well.
I don't think it should be, and that's something our
government is committed to changing. That's all part of the
youth justice re right.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
So, in a situation where somebody is charged with allegedly
raping somebody, if they are a youth, is detention still
a last resort?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yes? So currently right now, under the laws that we've
inherited and the mess we've inherited, detention has to be
considered as a last resort. So that's something we're going
to get rid of.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Do you think that that meets the community's expectations that
if somebody and I'm not talking about you know, any
alleged defenders, I'm just in general. Yeah, do you think
you know what kind of offense do you think somebody
should not be bailed for? Because I'll tell you right now,
I think when you're talking about the alleged rape of
(07:12):
somebody or unalleged knife crime where somebody's been stabbed, the
expectation of the community is that they're actually not then
on bail and able to continue to offense.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And that's exactly why for this serious offenses we will
have this new test and that will be ready for Wednesday.
And equally, going back to your question around my view
on detention as a last resort, that's why we're removing it.
We just don't think it has a place in Northern
Territory laws, and so that's why it's part of that.
So how quickly is that going to happen unclear right
(07:42):
now whether that bit will be part of what we
do Wednesday or whether it will stay as part of
the bigger piece of work, because there's a number of
bow components that we're doing with the Youth Justice rewrite.
But one hundred percent on Wednesday we will be debating
until the very end. We'll sit there as long as
it takes this over arching principle for serious offenses around
satisfying that their community threat isn't there.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Do you think we've got a situation here though, where
you're going to attempt to continue to strengthen bail and
we're going to have judges find ways to bail offenders.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, there will always be a level of discretion and
I know, you know a lot of people in the
community will say, well, anyone charged should just have no bail,
and you know, it's a it's a complicated area of
law in the sense that people who are bailed are
still presumed innocent until proven guilty. It's different if a
person is sentenced, but I'm not making excuses for it.
(08:36):
We've clearly not hit the mark. And I mean Territorians
know we've had the Royal Commission into Youth Justice, which
has led to So is that terrible outcome?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Is that where this detention as the last resort has
come from.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, all of these weakening of the Youth Justice Acts
all spurred out of the Royal Commission with whether then
the Gunner Labor government and then the files going. You know,
we've had labor for a long time and they continuously
went back and watered down, water down, and that's the
mess where fixing and we've got you know, it's it's
system wide. It's not just fix the law and then
it works, you know, it's you then have to address
(09:10):
the justice system, which we've been working through corrections obviously
has been a mess, which is really on track now.
So there's a lot, there's the inheritance of it is huge.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
I mean, there is so much. But I really want
to stay on track because I know what the community's
expectation is this morning is they actually want you to
fix it, and they want you to fix it fast.
They understand it's complex, they understand that you've only been
in government for a short amount of time. But quite honestly,
they want to feel safe. They want to feel safe
(09:40):
to go to work, they want to feel safe to
go into their beds at night and know they're not
going to get broken into and that somebody is not
going to rock up with a machete and stab them
who's on bail. That's what the community whinds at the
moment now, Chief Minister, I understand that there's got to
be a separation of powers when you talk about judiciary
(10:01):
and when you talk about the expectations of the community,
and when you talk about the laws and the legislation
and the interference or potential interference from politicians. So I
get that there's got to be a separation of powers.
But what can you do to ensure that the judiciary
understands the expectations of the Northern Territory community.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, so there's a few things we can do. Number
one is, obviously the Attorney General has contact with the judiciary.
Now she can't direct them, but she can make sure
they understand our priorities and that has been done. And
then there's making sure that our laws are fit for purpose.
And so you know, we've gone in We've fixed a
number of laws. We've done a number of things already
(10:43):
and that work continues, as I explained about the Youth
Justice Act, and unfortunately crime continues. Now we've seen some
good early results when you compared February this year to
February last year. Obviously we've had the most horrific and
tragic death of a much love man life week and
continues to be high levels of violent crime. And I
(11:04):
wish I could snap my fingers and fix it all yesterday.
But some of it is lower hanging fruit, like what
we did urgently just eight weeks after coming into government.
Are there is more complicated like our use justice at review.
But we are throwing everything we can at this and
often once we fix one thing, we find another flaw
and so then it's about putting that focus onto it.
(11:26):
But we have a subcommittee of Cabinet who spends their
time focused solely on this issue, Katie, and it's very
important to the territory just on.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
The judiciary meeting the expectation of the community. Are there
any steps that the Northern Territory government that you, as
the Chief Minister can take in terms of decisions being
made that do not meet the community's expectations. I mean,
we had a situation on the weekend, Samara Lavitag taking
to social media to voice so heartbreak of course about
(11:57):
the situation. But she said the judge in this situation
was as culpable as the alleged defender and called on
them to stand down. She said if they don't that
she'd be writing to the Attorney General and asking for
their position to be reassessed. Where are things at with that?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, so, and look, I hear the community's frustration. So
the Parliament makes the laws, the judiciary interpret the laws
and implement them. There will always be that level of
discretion and we're doing everything we can to make sure
it's narrowed and focused and delivering the outcomes that the
community expect. But you know, a judge is a judge
(12:39):
for life. Effectively, there's no reprimanded government can do around that.
And you know people can understand why that's important as well.
So you know, it's one of those things. But it's
very important that as law makers we continue to make
sure we have the best laws. But let's not forget
there's the root causes of crime is very important work
(13:00):
we're doing as well, so a lot of the time
we talk about police corrections and courts and that's the
spiky end at the moment, but we're doing a lot
of underlying work with children and families, education and of
course housing because as you know, we've got to stop
kids who are eighteen now committing knife crime were ten
when Labor came in and watered down the laws. So
(13:20):
you know, we've got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, Look, I want to ask earlier this year, you
and I spoke at length, and you've touched on this
just a moment ago, but we spoke at length about
the granting of compassionate bail to the teenagers who subsequently
abscondered while attending a funeral. Now, Chief Justice Michael Grant
took the unusual step of issuing a public statement following that,
(13:42):
as you touched on a moment ago, but in it
he outlined the factors that judges must consider when assessing
the granting of bail for a youth. One of those
includes the need to consider all other options, of course
before reminding of youth in custody, as you just touched on,
and the need to strengthen and preserve the relationship between
(14:03):
the youth and the youth's family, the cognitive capacity, health
and developmental needs of the youth, and if the youth
is aboriginal, any issues that arise due to the youth's aboriginality,
including cultural background, ties to extend firmly or place, and
any other relevant cultural issues or obligation. Do you think
(14:27):
that this factor is taking precedence over the safety of community.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Well, we don't have that overarching safety of community test,
so that's what will do Wednesday. And then yes, as
you've read out, I mean there's this long laundry list
of things judges can consider. And I think going back
to the larger money incident, does it matter if you're
aboriginal or not if you have a loved one passed away?
I mean, these are all the questions. So first step Wednesday,
(14:53):
overarching test community safety. Then as part of that Youth
Justice Act review all of those other things you read out.
They're the ones that are on the table in terms
of do these you know, are these required, do they
make any sense whatsoever? And are they leading to perverse outcomes?
Speaker 1 (15:09):
All right, so one of those again, as we touched
on briefly before, but I just want to delve into
a bit more is in the Youth Justice Act. There
is section sixty four A which states that the Youth
Court may dismiss charges one subject to sub section two.
The Youth Justice Court may, at any stage of the
proceedings against a youth in respect to an offense, dismiss
(15:34):
the charge in respect of the offense, whether or not
the court finds the charge proven against the youth. Is
this essentially going to mean that any changes you make
to bail if the offender is a youth, which in
many cases that we've spoken about previously they have been,
that the court can still at any stage dismiss this
(15:55):
charge until the Youth Justice Act changes. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So, and that's all the work we're looking at now.
And as you as your listeners listening to that will
be horrified that that's the case. And so it is. Again.
Now what we're doing is a deep dive because sometimes
if you change I can you know, it's easy to
think we'll just rip that bit out, but then it
has this cascade. So we're looking at it as a
whole to make sure what we present back to Parliament
(16:18):
is comprehensive so that the courts and the police can
implement it properly, because what we don't want is to
create further loopholes or inconsistency or any other issue. We
want this to be crystal clear about how the law works,
what the expectation is. But you'll find, you know, if
anyone needs some bedtime reading, if you read through that thing,
it'll be horribly well To me.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
It seems as though we have got so many holes
in the legislation at the moment that are all you know,
that are all in different ways, and they may have
been well intended at the time, right, they might have
been well intended, but they are all there to support
the alleged defender.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Exactly where is the support for the victor? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Where is the changes that are going to meet the
community's expectations of what we you know, what we want.
Like on the weekend, Leah, I went to nightcliff shops. Right,
I went to Woolworths because I thought this will be
the safest place to go after what's happened last week.
I saw a group of teenage girls pegging soft drinks
(17:22):
at a security guard. Right, they were underneath the CCTV.
There is a police station two hundred meters away. It
beggars belief, the absolute garbage behavior that people are seeing
at the moment. We had a man stabbed at a
servo on the weekend. We had a Casuarina petrol station
(17:45):
held up allegedly with an armed you know, armed with
a knife. Like it's just disgusting behavior and we've all
had a gutful of it.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, I agree with you completely, Katie. And again just
the behavior of those girls you saw, the lawlessness is
unbelievable because they've never faced a consequence. And what we've
got when when I talked about the broken system before,
I think you encapsulated it. Well, we've had an entire
system built over the last decade around the historical trauma
of the offender rather than the focus on a safe
(18:18):
community and the protection of victims or people from becoming victims.
And that's the work where I'm doing. We've had royal
commissions and coronials and every other person coming out saying, oh,
we've got to cut all the person who's done the
wrong thing more and it hasn't worked. It has led
to young people thinking they are and in some cases
being above the law, and ultimately the community is the
(18:42):
one paying the price. For that, and some have paid
the ultimate price with their life, Katie. So it is
a massive issue. But we must look at people's right
to be safe above the historical trauma of the person
doing the wrong thing, and then stop young people from
experiencing that trauma so that they can grow up to
be functioning members of our community.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
How do you, though, how do you go against or
how do you stand up to I don't know what
the right word is, But in recent weeks, you know,
we've had a situation as well where we've got judges, well,
one judge who had suspended the four year sentence of
a woman who pleaded guilty to a violent crime against
a sixteen year old girl, citing inhumane conditions at the
(19:23):
Alice Springs Police watchhouse. Now that watchhouse was described as overcrowded,
with up to twenty women in a cell and having
the main source of water on top of toilets that
often filled with vomit. I mean, how are you then
going to contend with the fact that you've got judges
as well who are concerned about the fact that the
jails are two full.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah. Well, I honestly, that is a well ventilated one
that really people feel Miss the Mark Katie as well.
And yeah, our prisons are full, but the flip side
is you put these people on the street and that's
not okay, not in my book, not in any bodies book.
And so we continue to build more beds. We've got
another one hundred coming online very soon. We've already built
(20:06):
over five hundred and eight months and we've filled every
single one KDI, so it shows you the demand. And
again this was just another area that that you know,
labor pretended didn't need to be done, and here we
are building prisons like no tomorrow when we could be
building a nation building infrastructure, economic building infrastructure. But we've
got to focus on the basics. Until the territory is safe,
(20:26):
nothing else good can come from it. And so it
remains our number one priority. And in a couple of
weeks there will be the budget and people will see
the hundreds of millions of dollars being poured into this
because we've got to throw everything at it.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
All right, Chief Minister, we're pressed for time. I'm sure
you are as well, but I do want to ask
you a couple of quick ones. What is going on
with this Nightcliff Police Station? Is it going to be
opened up as a proper police station because people have
had enough of what's going on around it. And my
understanding is that when all that public housing moved into Nightcliff,
you know, when Saint Vinnie's moved in Nightcliff, Well that
(21:01):
happened more recently, but there was an understanding that there
was going to be a greater police presence in the
suburb of Nightcliff.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, people in Nightcliff were tricked. People in Nightcliffe were
absolutely politically tricked by the previous Labor local member and
her government. That station should never have been built. I'm
very clearly on record for forever in a day of ASI. Yes,
and so we cannot just turn that into a general
judist police station because people are like, well, the building's there.
(21:30):
This is a highly operational decision by police. Now it
is full of Territory Safety Division operate out of there
and neighborhood watch. But when you call triple zero, there
are not police being running to their cars, jumping in
a vent and running out of there. Now. Commissioner Acting
Assistant Commissioner were said the other day that you know,
even if it was, it wouldn't have necessarily saved mis effect.
(21:52):
But what I know is that we as a government
have absolutely committed to not making political police stations because
it impacts the operations of police. And people in Gray
are saying, well, why can't I have one? And people
in Kuram will say why can't I have one? The
same applies to Nightcliffe. Now, I'm it is sad that
those people were tricked and that this political ploy happened,
(22:14):
But ultimately I've made sure we have a police infrastructure
master plan so that it is not a political thing
that you can just decide where a police station goes.
And we will continue to look at what we do
with Nightcliff station going forward, because it's not somewhere where
GDS are deployed, a bit like Behma Behramer police station
has police in it obviously and specialized units, but we
(22:35):
don't deploy GDS from there. That's from Casarina.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Okay. Now we know that the site there where sun
Bill was set to build quite a large building. Some
are asking, or some are saying that what has been
touted is that it could become affordable housing or public housing.
That is that going to happen.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Well, that's a matter for some build I mean it
could very well be. And I believe it's a the
large apartment building.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And the government's not got plans to take over that
side or anything.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Not that, not that I'm aware of. That might be
a different discussion. But look, there's no question that the
I'm sure the increase in density has impacted the Nightcliffer
as well. Again, the Labor member did that in our
own electorate. It's just, you know, we've just got to
continue to work on these issues. We've also got our
big housing reform piece coming up in a couple of months,
(23:26):
Gatty two, which will really reframe public housing.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
What about Saint Phinni's you know, it's also been question
whether they're going to extend their time in coconut growth.
Some are saying that that's had an impact to the
antisocial behavior.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yet we are hearing little bits about that. Obviously, Vinis
are trying to do their best there. My understanding is
they've got about eighteen months left and that site.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I mean, the thing is like they do wonderful work.
There is no doubt about that. So I don't want
this to be you know, having a crack at then.
But wherever that work is done, there is antisocial behavior. Unfortunately,
nearby Stuart Park, the playground there could not be used
for years and years and years. For the first time
in the last couple of weeks have seen families using
(24:10):
that playground. But the point is then, unfortunately, you know,
whether we want it to be the case or not,
unfortunately you do see that anti social those antisocial issues
in some cases end up congregating around that area. So
could it be an outreach service? So I mean, does
the government need to look at talking to Vinnie's about
(24:32):
the way that things could be done differently, Maybe they
need a bus that drives around and helps people. I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
We've certainly had a couple of conversations with Vinnie and
also Larry kia Nation as well. They're looking to partner
with Vinnies about what something could look like. So I
think there's a lot of opportunity there, and of course
location is absolutely critical and that work continues. Again, it's
something we've picked up on labor promise to move it
out of Stuart Park, but then didn't find any for
(25:00):
Venice to go, so that has become a problem for
just a different suburb of course. But look, the work
is happening and I know everyone wants it done yesterday,
as do I Katie, because it's really difficult to live
your life free when you're not you know, when you're
making decisions about what time you go somewhere, whether you
bring the kids. That is not okay. And again, what
(25:22):
we've seen is an entire system wide reform to care
more about the offender than we do about people to
be safe, and unfortunately some parts of that are going
to take longer than other parts to fix.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You finished it, I mean, you are You're gonna get
pushed back from some saying that you know that that
youths do need rights and that you know that they
shouldn't be lost up. You're going to get pushed back
on that. I mean, are you going to stand up
to those people that push back and so that you're
going too hard or that you're you know, what you're
doing is not going to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Of course we will, just like well, you know, if
people think back to eight weeks into our government when
we pass that reducing crime package, people were howling from
the rooftops about that, you know, and again Labor and
the Green Independent and the other Independent did haven't supported
us on our Laura and order agenda, and it'd be
very interesting on Wednesday to see how are labor, how
(26:15):
is Kat McNamara, and how is Justine Davies going to
vote on Wednesday? And that's where you should be asking
your local member of Parliament.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well, Leah Financiaro, I know that's been quite an extended
period of time for you this morning to be in here.
I appreciate your time and appreciate you taking the time
to answer all of those questions. We'll catch up with
you again soon.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Take care everyone.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Thank you,
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