Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now, look, there's no doubt that the inner workings of
Charles Doowen University have been under the microscope and it's
now been revealed that the university is having to pay
more than four million dollars in underpayment to at least
eight hundred former and current staff members. It was uncovered
through a compliance audit that CDU commissioned and self reported,
(00:20):
but it has created some questions about the institution's governance.
Now joining us on the line is the interim Charles
Down University Vice Chancellor and President, Fiona Colson.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Good morning to you, Fiona, Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Now Fiona, this is a significant amount of money and
a worry that it took place in the first case.
How did this come about?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So, as you outlined in early twenty twenty two, we
engage an auditor and they identified under payments in relation
to essentially minimum hours worked and contracted rates. So to
give you an idea, we have quite a complex enterprise agreement.
There are different rates for marking, different rates for lecturing.
(01:08):
We also have a minimum number of hours that you
pay someone for, so if you come in for one hour,
there may be a minimum requirement that you're paid for
three to four hours. So essentially what had happened is
there were human error and the interpretation of some of
our rates in the calculations. That's happened, and we've gone
(01:29):
through a very significant boths over the last three well
three and a half years, going through paper records and
more than three thousand sign and form of staff members
being evaluated, and we've identified just over eight hundred underpaid employees.
(01:51):
We've been working through that, a team of ten people
working on that quite some time, and we are now
entering what is no as an enforceable undertaking with the
Fair Work on Bitsman and this really is to have
a legally binding agreement about what we're doing, to directify
the issues and then also to ensure that we strengthen
(02:13):
our payroll and compliance systems. So it's been something that
has happened across unfortunately university sector, and that was some
work that we you know, it's representing a time period
of twenty sixteen to twenty twenty two that we're repaying
people for underpayments.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Why do you reckon or how do you reckon? It
sort of happened? I know you said there that you
know that different people, different streams of roles are obviously
getting paid in different ways. How does it happen? I
guess people will be listening, going, how do we end
up in a situation where the university has underpaid People's.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Look, it's human error. It's the interpretation of our enterprise
agreement and the way it was calculated. It used to
be calculated in individual work areas. What we've done as
part of this work is we've centralized all of these
calculation and contracts into our payroll area, so people who
are specialists in the area. We also now have a
(03:18):
new technology system that supports this and automates calculation. And
then we've also undertaken a piece of work to simplify
the way that contracts issued. So to give an example,
if someone was doing lecturing and marketing for us, they
got to separate contracts, one for lecturing and one for marking.
And if they claim more hours against marking but it
(03:40):
was actually lecturing, they got underpaid because lexturing is a
higher rate. So what we now do is we have
one contract and then the person who's employed flects a
number of hours they did under lecturing and under marking.
So it was complexity, it was a degree of manual
sort of calculation and submission of aper documents. So and
(04:03):
it happened over a period of twenty sixteen to twenty two,
which is why it is that amount of money. And
we're committed to working that through well.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
And I guess you know the university does deserve that
credits that you've actually complied and initiated the compliance, aught
it and self reported how much money is now outstanding
and how many employees or former staff are to be paid.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
We've rectified most of the underpayments, so it's been six
hundred and twelve clients and former employees that have been
back paid, and that's been around three and a half million.
The total amount that we will backpay, including interests and
superannuation will be four point one one million, and this
(04:52):
will be eight hundred and twenty three employees.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
How do you manage that kind of you know, that
kind of additional sort of bill. I guess you would
call it that's now coming in, you know, to the university.
I guess you've said that that it's already been in
some instances it's already been paid. But gee, it's a
big impulse on the university, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
It is, but at the same time, if you underpay
so on, we must pay them the amount that they've
been underpaid. And it's been It's not all falling in
one year. We've been doing this over several years as
we've been working through the complexity of this, and we
you know, we've been including that as part of our
(05:33):
budgeting process as well, because we you that this was
happening and we've been estimating that. But yeah, of course
it's an amount going out that really should have been
paid in previous years but now is falling due now.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And be hona, what is the university now doing just
to ensure that it doesn't happen again.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It's exactly what I just outlined. We've sensilized all of
this work into our pay roll team, so people who
specialist understand how our enterprise agreement is sort of gets applied.
There's no sort of individual in sepretation. We also have
(06:12):
a technology system that we use that automates the calculation,
so you're not having to, you know, have a human
being calculate this and calculate it incorrectly. So for example,
if somebody came in and worked for one hour and
we were required to pay them for a minimums three hours.
You know that's going to be automatically calculated. You don't
(06:34):
have to worry about someone remembering that actually there's a
minimum requirement for that piece of work. We've also simplified
the way that we issue contracts, so as I said,
rather than having two separate contracts for somebody, we'll put
under one contract and then they can sue. You know,
the hours and we're circing working and then on top
(06:54):
of that education training to manage so they know how
people are void understanding the complexity of our enterprise agreement.
Is the work marking, is the work lecturing? What is it?
Making sure that all of that gets set up well?
And yeah, I really again continuing when you talked about governance,
(07:16):
will continue to review what we're doing. We'll have audits
on what we're doing and making sure that we're compliant
with our Enterprise Agreement.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Fianna. Before I let you go, I am keen to
get a bit of an update on the situation facing
those qualifications through the tape sector. I had heard some
reporting that some apprentices had to return to CDU to
receive the remaining training by the end of the year.
Is that right.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
We're working with individual student and graduates, so again, if
they need to have additional time, just give an idea.
We've now had thirty two who fully completed their gap
training and have their significate of attendance if good. We've
got a number of people either commencing who've i have
(08:04):
to commenced the gap training or maybe coming back at
another time because they've had to delay because of the
busy price season work schedule. And we have had some
people who have elected not to participate in gap training.
Part of that reflects that they may no longer be
working in the industry and so they just don't see
any point in undertaking that training. And we still have
(08:29):
some people who have not responded to our contacts as well,
So we're working that through. But each individual, if there
are circumstances where they're unable to take it in the
time frame that we've outlined, we're taking into account their circumstances.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Okay, so it may be a situation where that time
frame can be extended if that is required.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
And we would then also go to our regulator and say, look,
these are the reasons that we're wanting to do this,
and we still need them to sign off on it,
but yes, if we need to and there's a sietificant
justice case, and then we will do that.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Has there been any compensation scheme or anything set up
to cover for the inconvenience and the work loss that
this will have caused.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
I wouldn't call it compensation. And what we're doing is
we're paying people to come in so when they are,
if they're not out working, we're paying them to come
in at an hourly rate. So yes, they will be
paid to come in, and also any travel or accommodation,
we're paying those costs.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Well, Fiona Calson, we certainly appreciate the time you've given
us since stepping in as the interim Vice Chancellor. You
have been a busy woman, There's no doubt about that.
Thanks Beatty, thank you, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Now, look, there's no doubt that the inner workings of
Charles Doowen University have been under the microscope and it's
now been revealed that the university is having to pay
more than four million dollars in underpayment to at least
eight hundred former and current staff members. It was uncovered
through a compliance audit that CDU commissioned and self reported,
(00:20):
but it has created some questions about the institution's governance.
Now joining us on the line is the interim Charles
Down University Vice Chancellor and President, Fiona Colson.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Good morning to you, Fiona, Good morning Katie.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Now Fiona, this is a significant amount of money and
a worry that it took place in the first case.
How did this come about?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So, as you outlined in early twenty twenty two, we
engage an auditor and they identified under payments in relation
to essentially minimum hours worked and contracted rates. So to
give you an idea, we have quite a complex enterprise agreement.
There are different rates for marking, different rates for lecturing.
(01:08):
We also have a minimum number of hours that you
pay someone for, so if you come in for one hour,
there may be a minimum requirement that you're paid for
three to four hours. So essentially what had happened is
there were human error and the interpretation of some of
our rates in the calculations. That's happened, and we've gone
(01:29):
through a very significant boths over the last three well
three and a half years, going through paper records and
more than three thousand sign and form of staff members
being evaluated, and we've identified just over eight hundred underpaid employees.
(01:51):
We've been working through that, a team of ten people
working on that quite some time, and we are now
entering what is no as an enforceable undertaking with the
Fair Work on Bitsman and this really is to have
a legally binding agreement about what we're doing, to directify
the issues and then also to ensure that we strengthen
(02:13):
our payroll and compliance systems. So it's been something that
has happened across unfortunately university sector, and that was some
work that we you know, it's representing a time period
of twenty sixteen to twenty twenty two that we're repaying
people for underpayments.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Why do you reckon or how do you reckon? It
sort of happened? I know you said there that you
know that different people, different streams of roles are obviously
getting paid in different ways. How does it happen? I
guess people will be listening, going, how do we end
up in a situation where the university has underpaid People's.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Look, it's human error. It's the interpretation of our enterprise
agreement and the way it was calculated. It used to
be calculated in individual work areas. What we've done as
part of this work is we've centralized all of these
calculation and contracts into our payroll area, so people who
are specialists in the area. We also now have a
(03:18):
new technology system that supports this and automates calculation. And
then we've also undertaken a piece of work to simplify
the way that contracts issued. So to give an example,
if someone was doing lecturing and marketing for us, they
got to separate contracts, one for lecturing and one for marking.
And if they claim more hours against marking but it
(03:40):
was actually lecturing, they got underpaid because lexturing is a
higher rate. So what we now do is we have
one contract and then the person who's employed flects a
number of hours they did under lecturing and under marking.
So it was complexity, it was a degree of manual
sort of calculation and submission of aper documents. So and
(04:03):
it happened over a period of twenty sixteen to twenty two,
which is why it is that amount of money. And
we're committed to working that through well.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
And I guess you know the university does deserve that
credits that you've actually complied and initiated the compliance, aught
it and self reported how much money is now outstanding
and how many employees or former staff are to be paid.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
We've rectified most of the underpayments, so it's been six
hundred and twelve clients and former employees that have been
back paid, and that's been around three and a half million.
The total amount that we will backpay, including interests and
superannuation will be four point one one million, and this
(04:52):
will be eight hundred and twenty three employees.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
How do you manage that kind of you know, that
kind of additional sort of bill. I guess you would
call it that's now coming in, you know, to the university.
I guess you've said that that it's already been in
some instances it's already been paid. But gee, it's a
big impulse on the university, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
It is, but at the same time, if you underpay
so on, we must pay them the amount that they've
been underpaid. And it's been It's not all falling in
one year. We've been doing this over several years as
we've been working through the complexity of this, and we
you know, we've been including that as part of our
(05:33):
budgeting process as well, because we you that this was
happening and we've been estimating that. But yeah, of course
it's an amount going out that really should have been
paid in previous years but now is falling due now.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And be hona, what is the university now doing just
to ensure that it doesn't happen again.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It's exactly what I just outlined. We've sensilized all of
this work into our pay roll team, so people who
specialist understand how our enterprise agreement is sort of gets applied.
There's no sort of individual in sepretation. We also have
(06:12):
a technology system that we use that automates the calculation,
so you're not having to, you know, have a human
being calculate this and calculate it incorrectly. So for example,
if somebody came in and worked for one hour and
we were required to pay them for a minimums three hours.
You know that's going to be automatically calculated. You don't
(06:34):
have to worry about someone remembering that actually there's a
minimum requirement for that piece of work. We've also simplified
the way that we issue contracts, so as I said,
rather than having two separate contracts for somebody, we'll put
under one contract and then they can sue. You know,
the hours and we're circing working and then on top
(06:54):
of that education training to manage so they know how
people are void understanding the complexity of our enterprise agreement.
Is the work marking, is the work lecturing? What is it?
Making sure that all of that gets set up well?
And yeah, I really again continuing when you talked about governance,
(07:16):
will continue to review what we're doing. We'll have audits
on what we're doing and making sure that we're compliant
with our Enterprise Agreement.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Fianna. Before I let you go, I am keen to
get a bit of an update on the situation facing
those qualifications through the tape sector. I had heard some
reporting that some apprentices had to return to CDU to
receive the remaining training by the end of the year.
Is that right.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
We're working with individual student and graduates, so again, if
they need to have additional time, just give an idea.
We've now had thirty two who fully completed their gap
training and have their significate of attendance if good. We've
got a number of people either commencing who've i have
(08:04):
to commenced the gap training or maybe coming back at
another time because they've had to delay because of the
busy price season work schedule. And we have had some
people who have elected not to participate in gap training.
Part of that reflects that they may no longer be
working in the industry and so they just don't see
any point in undertaking that training. And we still have
(08:29):
some people who have not responded to our contacts as well,
So we're working that through. But each individual, if there
are circumstances where they're unable to take it in the
time frame that we've outlined, we're taking into account their circumstances.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Okay, so it may be a situation where that time
frame can be extended if that is required.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
And we would then also go to our regulator and say, look,
these are the reasons that we're wanting to do this,
and we still need them to sign off on it,
but yes, if we need to and there's a sietificant
justice case, and then we will do that.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Has there been any compensation scheme or anything set up
to cover for the inconvenience and the work loss that
this will have caused.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
I wouldn't call it compensation. And what we're doing is
we're paying people to come in so when they are,
if they're not out working, we're paying them to come
in at an hourly rate. So yes, they will be
paid to come in, and also any travel or accommodation,
we're paying those costs.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Well, Fiona Calson, we certainly appreciate the time you've given
us since stepping in as the interim Vice Chancellor. You
have been a busy woman, There's no doubt about that.
Thanks Beatty, thank you, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
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