Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley on new correctional facilities to be built

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
A big news this week and its only Tuesday, has
been that the Northern Territory government's announced plans for a
new men's remand center and two hundred bed women's correctional
center at Halts. The men's facility could eventually expand up
to twelve hundred beds with more than forty percent of
prisoners currently on Remand we know that the United Workers'

(00:21):
Union slam the decision to privatize the new men's facility,
accusing the CLP of putting profits ahead of staff, rehabilitation
and community safety. Now the government says the investment is
going to modernize corrections and improve safety and rehabilitation. Now,
the Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley joins us in the studio.

(00:43):
Good morning to your commissioner.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Good morning, Katie.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Good to have you on the show now, Commissioner, you
and I have spoken a lot over the years about
the pressure on corrections with large numbers of prisoners on
remand how many are on remand right now.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
There's about forty five percent of our population, Kadie, So
in the territory today we've got a nudge over twenty
eight hundred people in custody. So about thirteen hundred on
remand is the rough number. And that number has come
down a little bit from where we were at the
peak of the watchhouse pressure crisis. We were up over

(01:17):
fifty percent, but now we're sitting around forty four to
forty five percent.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
It's a heck of a lot of people on remand,
I mean, thirteen hundred on remand, and as you've said there,
you know, we've sort of gotten over that peak. That's
something that you and I were speaking about very regularly
when we had people that were on remand in the
watch houses. One of the big things that's often raised
with us is that those on remand, you know, may
not be able to complete different programs to the same

(01:43):
degree that those are actually sentenced are able to. Can
you talk me through that and what this change would mean.
Will it mean that prisoners are actually able to or
those on remand are actually able to undertake different programs.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
There's a lot of stuff in this, Katie, and the
differences between the ROMANDT and the sentence cohort relate to
a few things. Firstly, obviously, when you're on romand, you've
got a matter still before court, so you need to
see your lawyer.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
More often when.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
People come into custody, there's a range of initial assessments
that are undertaken to assess, you know, not only your
security classification and your reasons for being there, but also
your health needs, your support needs, et cetera, et cetera.
So there's a bunch of work that happens in a
very short space of time. And then of course, built
into that romand period is the uncertainty for us of
how long you're going to be there. So we get

(02:30):
warrants that send you out to the next date and
the next date, but of course you could go to
court next Tuesday, the judge releases you or bails you,
or deals with you, and you may not come back
to the prison at all. So there's a more finite
system of ROMAND processing that occurs in those first few months.
And then there's the sentenced cohort, and of course that

(02:50):
cohort is with us for a longer period of time.
They've also been found guilty of their offense and they've
been sentenced to a term of imprisonment, and of course
the legal difference is important. So when you're on remand
innocent until proven guilty on sentence you've been proven guilty,
you're convicted, you're in jail, and then of course our
intensive clinical rehabilitation programs kick in. Now there's a fundamental

(03:11):
difference in that, Katie and I'll talk about romand programs
in a sect. But when you are treating clinically, and
our psychologists and our educators do an incredible job of this.
When you are treating a sentence prisoner, you're asking them
to admit ownership, to admit concession that they have been
involved in their offending or what they've done. So if
you're dealing with the domestic violence offender, you're asking them

(03:32):
to acknowledge that their behavior was wrong, and then you
work on the clinical treatment picture of that person so
that they hopefully make better choices in the different in
a different life. So ultimately, you know, if you're a psychologist,
it's difficult to treat that person in the same way
if they're on remand because they haven't pleaded guilty or
haven't been found guilty yet. So every lawyer that you

(03:54):
and I have ever met is going to tell their
client to say, you know, don't play guilty, don't say nothing,
et cetera. C So there's a difference in the way
you treat people. So we want to see those Romand
cohorts and those sentence cohorts dealt with differently, and that's
why this Romand Center separates them out.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
So do you believe that this new facility could make
a real difference and ease the pressure that's currently on corrections.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
Absolutely, and that's why we've done it. And so we've
talked for a long time, Katie and I've been in
this job four and a half years. My officers and
my staff have been out there under the pump for
years dealing with the pressures on the system, the hard
work we do every day of the overcrowding. We've been
through the watchhouse crisis, We've opened up new infrastructure and
behramer Today Katie has over six hundred prisoners there.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
The purpose of the system.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Must be to contain and securely manage that population and
then to rehabilitate. But by having the programs delivered differently
in different sites, with a different system, enables us to
specialize that approach for each cohort.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
And that's what this model's about.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
All right, talk me through how many beds are actually
going to be in this facility? Is it going to
start at eight fifty and then hopefully expand.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
That's right, So we looked at the Treasury model, which
was also done in conjunction with Deloitte, and mind you,
the modeling was based on all of the data that
we fed in and independently Treasury analyzed all of that,
so it wasn't Matt Valley deciding that this is how
many beds we needed. They did the economics of this.
We looked at what we thought the future demand pressures

(05:26):
would be, as well as knowing that the interim site
at Berrima was always going to close, so when you
take eight hundred odd beds out of the system, you
have to replace it with something. Plus, we looked at
the overcrowding or the infill if you like, of where
we've already placed beds in the Holt facility. So remembering
Katie Holtz was built in twenty fourteen one thousand and
forty eight beds, with a capacity at that time projected

(05:49):
up to eleven hundred and seventy four. We're now at
thirteen fifty odd. So ostensibly, when we build this new facility,
not only will it give us extra capacity to close
down BEMA, but potentially reduce the pressure inside holts as well.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
I mean, you have got justice advocates that are you know,
they're saying that this is a band aid, that it's
not actually a solution, and that evidence says that for decades,
imprisoning Aboriginal people has not been the solution. You know,
your job is to manage prisoners or manage those on
remand once they are already in the system. The other

(06:24):
argument is, or the other concern that people raise quite
often is that you know, the recidivism rates are quite high,
and that people are spending time in the correctional centers,
but they're not coming out better people.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
Well, a couple of things, Katie and I understand the
advocacy point that, you know, we want to keep people
out of jail, so does all territorians, I think, in
the sense of we want to see less crime. But
when there is crime and when there are people to
be held to account, you want to have a functioning
correction system that does its job. That's number one. So yep,
I'm all for for opportunities for people to commit less

(06:57):
crime in the community, but my job is to make
sure when you the community and the courts send prisoners.
To me, I look after them properly. That's number one,
and our staff are very committed to that. But number
two is when they're in custody, absolutely we want to
have a significant effort to try and change their trajectory
so that when they leave, they don't come back. And Katie,

(07:17):
we've spoken about this a lot, but I think Territorians
need to take some confidence in the work that Corrections
has been doing over the last couple of years to
build that up. So, Katie, you know our education and
employment programs. There's over one thousand prisoners in the last
year alone involved in education. There's over one thousand prisoners
involved in employment services. And you've seen recently our program

(07:41):
with Workskill about ready to Work. This is the post
release support program for people to get a job. We've
got one hundred people enrolled in that now. Our clinical
services program delivery is up over fifty percent in the
last year, so close to all, I'm going to say
well over one thousand people by now in the last
twelve months have been through clinical treatment program in our

(08:01):
prison system.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
So this is the cost the.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Highest success rate that you've seen in recent years. Like
you've been the Corrections commissioner now for four years.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
Absolutely, and this is why we've done the work to
get out of watchhouses, to improve our staff in cohort
and grow it, and to unlock prisons.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Katie.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
So when you and I were having this conversation two
years ago, we were talking about lockdowns, lockdowns all the time.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
We've built our way out.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Of that, and we have had less lockdowns in the
last twelve months than we've had for years. Our education
building at Holts that was burned down in the twenty
twenty two riot is now fully functional. We have a
two point one million dollar contract with CDU delivering VET
training in the prison system. All of these things are

(08:45):
part of the plan to I guess, grow, modernize, and
upgrade corrections, to do the job that the community expects
us to do.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Absolutely, the community does expect that, and we do expect
and we certainly want people when they go to prison
that they come out better humans, you know, And I
think that that's a really important element of it. I mean,
the United Workers Union, they've been pretty scathing. They say
that privatizing the facility puts profits ahead of rehabilitation, staff
and community safety. What's your response to that.

Speaker 3 (09:15):
Well, the point I would say is that government sets
the rules, Government owns the policy, Government controls what we
put into the contract. Government determines who goes to prisons.
Courts send people to prisons on a sentence or a
refuse bail order, and they also order who's released. The
contractor delivers the services that we prescribe. And that's the

(09:37):
point of the package here. And I want us to
focus on not just the remand center, because that's the
peace that's attracted all the retention in the last twenty
four hours, but we're also building a two hundred bed
women's facility, never been done before in the Northern Territory,
and for the first time ever, we'll have a purpose run,
purpose designed women's facility for specialist needs for women. That's

(09:57):
a huge achievement, and I think Torrians expect us to
spend their money responsibly. So when you look at a
major infrastructure project like a twelve hundred bed prison, the
best way to fund that, the best way to manage
the cost of that over the years ahead, is to
bundle that into a PPP.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Can you talk me through it. I do take on
board the point you've made there about the women's facility,
and I do think that's a really positive step. But
can you take me through as the corrections commissioner, how
are you going to like, how do you oversee the
new Remand center if it's privately run, and how do
you ensure that it's being run to a standard that
you expect?

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Well? Number one is the law, Katie.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
The Correctional Services Act makes Corrections me our department responsible
for the correction system. And so therefore by extension of that,
the powers or the lawful authority of that contractor to
hold those prisoners comes from me. So we set the contract,
we then work through the and I guess point the
point here, Katie's we're not reinventing the wheel. There's a

(10:59):
lot of examples and evidence that we can draw on
from around the country. Now, critics will point out that
the privatization experiment in other jurisdictions has been a failure
and governments are clawing back their private prisons.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Not true, if you.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Actually you reckon, it's the opposite. Well, what I'm saying
is there's a balanced picture. So if you look, you
know some examples will put to me yesterday about Parkley
and Junior and New South Wales absolutely the New South
Wales government has taken a decision to bring those prisons
back to public control. But let's not forget about Clarence
Correctional Center in the mid North coast of New South Wales,
the largest prison in Australia, seventeen hundred beds operated by Circo.

(11:35):
The same concept of a fully bundled PPP model, design,
build finance operate Raven Hall in Victoria, another thousand bed
prison operated by the New South Wales sorry by the
Victorian government under contract with GEO group Acacia in Wa
another thousand bed prison operated by Circo over there.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
So there's plenty of them by the sow many of examples.
There's another couple in Adelaide.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
So do you think that your critics are just cherry
different things that aren't working to try and demonstrate that
it won't work in the Northern territory.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
Well, I think there's two issues here. One is the
philosophical evidence around what does or doesn't work in terms
of rehabilitation and number two economics. And what we're saying
is tie those two together, learn from other jurisdictions and
build the best package that territorians can have, because ultimately
if we want to build the prison system out to

(12:25):
be the most modern integrated correctional infrastructure network in Australia,
we've also got a fund at Katie, And I think
that's the point time. Yeah, yeah, is and the Treasurer
made this point strongly yesterday. Territorians will not pay to
build this thing. Territorians will transfer that financial risk to
a consortium and investor and then we'll pay that back

(12:46):
over time. Now, Katie, let's not forget that already happens
at the Holtz Correctional Center. That's an existing PPP asset.
We pay a lease fee on that every year to
the operators of that facility. And everyone's forgotten about that.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
It's going to say, well, yeah, Kathleen did remember this
shares today. She has that historical knowledge, my producer, she
did remember this shares today. But it's an important point
I think to make that it is already happening in
the Northern Territory.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
Well, that's right.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
And the difference with this model is we're bundling in
the operate piece. Yes, why because well I'll tell you why.
Because when the operator is responsible for as a consortium
designing the architecture of the building, understanding how they're going
to build it, and then operating that same facility. Then
they want to get it right and they're on the
hook for it over the next twenty years. My job

(13:35):
is to specify the service outcomes that will be attached
to that contract and then to inspect and hold them
to account for that standard that we want to deliver.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
How do you like, how are we going to find
appropriately trained staff? Given the concerns that already exist around
workforce pressure and retention.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
I think that's the number one critical challenge for most
employees in the Northern Territory, and it remains ours. As
you know, we've expect and at our workforce in corrections
by thirty odd percent over the last couple of years.
We recruit hard almost every day, Katie, and last Friday
I was down in other Springs swearing in another group
of correctional offices for our Springs Prison. There's no secret

(14:13):
in that that workforce attraction is going to be a challenge.
But again, with a large investor consortium bringing that package
of jobs to the territory, it's up to them to
find the innovative ways to create those workforces that we're
going to need.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
And what do you say to your current staff, the
people that are already working in Corrections that are concerned
that this is going to diminish their hard work and
we might see further privatization.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
Well, Number one is we're really proud. I'm really proud
of the work Corrections has done, and our staff do
an amazing job every day. And when I walk and
talk in the prison system, you know, whether that's on
Friday down in Alis or a bit out yesterday at Holtz,
And then of course we had staff out at Berrimi
yesterday talking to our staff.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
People are proud of the work they do for the community.
That's number one.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
So let's not forget that, and we want to make
sure that people in our workforce continue to remember the
very important job that Corrections does for the community. But
I suppose the other point of the puzzle is will
people be worried about what this means for the future
of their jobs. I understand those questions, but the government
has been really clear on this, and that is we
are not privatizing the existing corrections facility. This is a

(15:21):
new facility. We've done it for a reason and the
economics of that package are really important. But Let's also
remember that we're building the Catherine work Camp Corrections operated.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Well, that was actually another question that's just come through
on the tech sign. What happened to bush camps? Spoken
of well before the election. If money to build this,
why not bush camps around the Northern Territory run in
the main by indigenous relevant people.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
Well, there's a couple of parts of that and bush
camps or what we're saying is work camps. We're working
on Australia's I guess leading thinking around what an educational
agricultural facility can look like down at the Catherine campus
and that work is ongoing with CDU. We've got twenty
prisoners on site doing preparatory works. In a couple of

(16:05):
months we'll have that number tripled up to sixty and
then we'll be to one hundred and ninety eight by
this time next year. We're also building a low security
work camp facility out at Holtz again, another one hundred
and ninety two beds a workers facility, and that's going
to be a significant opportunity for us to expand things
like community service work parties that everyone's so fond of.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Well. Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley, I really appreciate your time
this morning. I know that our listeners appreciate you talking
them through all of these changes and what is going on,
So thank you very much for joining us in the studio.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Thanks to you listeners. Katie, you have a great day,
you too,