There's been suggestions we need to move away from relying on pine trees to offset our emissions.
The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment recently put out a report examining forestry drivers in New Zealand - and says we need to phase out the current approach to forestry.
David Norton from Pure Advantage says we can't offset our way out of a climate emergency - and we need to work on reducing CO2.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on
iHeartRadio right now.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
If you're one of those people who flies and texts
the yes, I will offset my carbon emissions by planting
a pine tree, thank you very much, and then feel
totally fine about flying, then you might want to listen
to this. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has recommended
a big shakeup in the way that we do forestry
in this country. He's put out a report that recommends
we should stop using pine forest to offset carbon emissions.
(00:40):
He basically thinks we should phase out forestry offsets for
carbon emissions. David Norton is a strategic science advisor with
pure advantage with me tonight, David.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Good evening, Cured, Nice to be here, Thank you, Good.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
To have you on the show. So why can't we
keep using pine forest? It seems easy to do and
feels good.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, it does seem easy to do and it does
feel good. That the problem, the fundamental problem, is that
we've got to stop producing a mission. We can't offset
our way out of the climate emergency. So I guess
the first reason is that we've also got to stop
producing all the CO two out there.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
But if we are going to keep doing it, which,
let's face it, we are going to keep doing for
some time to come, then are we not better off
offsetting it by planting trees, by planting pine?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Is that a problem now?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes? So that's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
And the problem with pines is that there's no guarantee
they're going to be permanent. So when you want to
offset something, you want to be sure that carbon is
going to stay in the ground forever, and there is
zero guarantee they're going to be permanent. They'll grow for
thirty forty fifty years, but beyond that we know very
little about how they'll perform. So we'd be clear here
we're talking about permanent radiator pine forests have been planted
(01:52):
for carbon. We're not talking about sustainably managed plantations for timber.
And the real warriors are not going to be permanent.
So it's going to be a liability the guys people
who plant them and made their money over the short
term from the carbon offsets, But who's going to be
liable for the environmental the downstream impacts of those forest collapse?
And of course for the loss in the carbon, And
that's the real concern.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
What do you mean collapse? What will happen to them
after that period of time.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Well, there's no evidence to say that a pine forest.
Remember pine trees come from California. They're adapted to the
Californian environment. There is no evidence that pine forest will
stay permanently in the ground in Alteriro and New Zealand.
It's not adapted to our New Zealand environment. And in fact,
was being suggested that as climate change becomes more and
more extreme weather from climate change, that these tall, thin
(02:36):
pine trees that have been carefully selected to grow fast
and sequest lots of carbon, become very prone to wind
throw to all sorts of extreme storm events.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
They'll just down fall over.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah, yeah, and so the useless.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
So someone's got a liability for the carbon that's been
stored in them. It's an economic cost, probably the government
in the future. But what about all the downstream impacts
that are going to occur when those forests collapse and
impact downstream communities.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
So what's the what do we do? I mean the
thing with whenever we talk about climate change, I just
go I don't care, like it's easier for me to
just actually not think about it and carry on with
my life.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, you know what I mean totally.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Look, look, we've got to try and reduce our emissions.
That that there's no two ways of doubt that, and
every little step helps of that. But I think we've
got to think about New Zealand and what New Zealand
is facing. So cycling Gabriel, you know, is going to
happen again and again and again, and it's not a
one off event, and we've got to start thinking how
do we build resilient landscapes, How do we make our catchments,
(03:36):
our landscapes resilient to these storm events and forests are
really important, but we need permanent native forests. And I'm
involved with Pure Advantage in this project called Recloaking Papatua Nuku,
which is proposing that we restore, regenerate, assist the development
of two million hectares of native forest, not in big blocks,
but carefully interwoven through landscapes in New Zealand to try
(03:58):
and build landscape resilience and have those native forests will
also draw down carbon.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
As well as not as much as the pine though,
right that's the problem with NAIs and they take so much.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yeah, but they'll do it over the longer term and
they'll help build up our resilient landscapes. And the Commission
is quite clear in his report that you know, native
forests can actually provide all these benefits and of course
they help bio diversity the part of who.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
We are who pays for them.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Well, again he recommends by taking forestry out of the
e t s, it's going to make the emitters of
carbon Dix side have to pay more to buy their
carbon credits from government and that money then gets invested
back into doing to doing.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Forestry cross and then we pay more. We have higher
power bills presumably whatever it might be, you know.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Well not none of it's renewably generated. And I mean
that's the whole thing. The whole idea of the emissions
scheme is to get us to change our behavior.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
And I suppose, but then my petrol will be more
expensive on it.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Then maybe we need to be have more evs and
use use use.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Others have got a story for you, David. Have you
read the story today? Go ahead to read it. There's
a study from Aukland University. Basically, we can't have the
pine forest. We can't have the evs. I'm banging my
head against the wall here, David. I don't know what
to do.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
About.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
No, it's not about tuning out. It's about about looking
at everything we do and thinking about all those individual
small actions can all help in the long run. But
I think to me and my expertise as ecology, as
a forest ecologist and to me, we need to build
resilient communities, resilient landscapes in New Zealand and native forests,
you know, interwoven through our primary production systems, our farms
(05:42):
and our horticultural areas can really help build that and
it's going to be in the long term, and it's
what we all want all. We all relate to cody
or to cabbage trees, or to cattarou and toy you know,
it's all part of who we are.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
And I don't know how much I relate to a
cabbage tree, but I certainly I think if we're going
to go down that track, I think I would relate
more to a cabbage tree than I would to a pine.
That's a fair point. Hey, thanks for coming on the show, David.
Interesting stuff. David Norton, pure advantage Strategic Science Advisor talking
there about the Parliamentary Commission for the Environment, saying that
you know pine plantations, not the plantations, but pine paddocks,
(06:21):
paddicks filled with pine not necessarily the best thing in
the long run.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
For more from News Talks B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on
iHeartRadio right now.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
If you're one of those people who flies and texts
the yes, I will offset my carbon emissions by planting
a pine tree, thank you very much, and then feel
totally fine about flying, then you might want to listen
to this. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment has recommended
a big shakeup in the way that we do forestry
in this country. He's put out a report that recommends
we should stop using pine forest to offset carbon emissions.
(00:40):
He basically thinks we should phase out forestry offsets for
carbon emissions. David Norton is a strategic science advisor with
pure advantage with me tonight, David.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Good evening, Cured, Nice to be here, Thank you, Good.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
To have you on the show. So why can't we
keep using pine forest? It seems easy to do and
feels good.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, it does seem easy to do and it does
feel good. That the problem, the fundamental problem, is that
we've got to stop producing a mission. We can't offset
our way out of the climate emergency. So I guess
the first reason is that we've also got to stop
producing all the CO two out there.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
But if we are going to keep doing it, which,
let's face it, we are going to keep doing for
some time to come, then are we not better off
offsetting it by planting trees, by planting pine?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Is that a problem now?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes? So that's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
And the problem with pines is that there's no guarantee
they're going to be permanent. So when you want to
offset something, you want to be sure that carbon is
going to stay in the ground forever, and there is
zero guarantee they're going to be permanent. They'll grow for
thirty forty fifty years, but beyond that we know very
little about how they'll perform. So we'd be clear here
we're talking about permanent radiator pine forests have been planted
(01:52):
for carbon. We're not talking about sustainably managed plantations for timber.
And the real warriors are not going to be permanent.
So it's going to be a liability the guys people
who plant them and made their money over the short
term from the carbon offsets, But who's going to be
liable for the environmental the downstream impacts of those forest collapse?
And of course for the loss in the carbon, And
that's the real concern.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
What do you mean collapse? What will happen to them
after that period of time.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Well, there's no evidence to say that a pine forest.
Remember pine trees come from California. They're adapted to the
Californian environment. There is no evidence that pine forest will
stay permanently in the ground in Alteriro and New Zealand.
It's not adapted to our New Zealand environment. And in fact,
was being suggested that as climate change becomes more and
more extreme weather from climate change, that these tall, thin
(02:36):
pine trees that have been carefully selected to grow fast
and sequest lots of carbon, become very prone to wind
throw to all sorts of extreme storm events.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
They'll just down fall over.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah, yeah, and so the useless.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
So someone's got a liability for the carbon that's been
stored in them. It's an economic cost, probably the government
in the future. But what about all the downstream impacts
that are going to occur when those forests collapse and
impact downstream communities.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
So what's the what do we do? I mean the
thing with whenever we talk about climate change, I just
go I don't care, like it's easier for me to
just actually not think about it and carry on with
my life.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, you know what I mean totally.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Look, look, we've got to try and reduce our emissions.
That that there's no two ways of doubt that, and
every little step helps of that. But I think we've
got to think about New Zealand and what New Zealand
is facing. So cycling Gabriel, you know, is going to
happen again and again and again, and it's not a
one off event, and we've got to start thinking how
do we build resilient landscapes, How do we make our catchments,
(03:36):
our landscapes resilient to these storm events and forests are
really important, but we need permanent native forests. And I'm
involved with Pure Advantage in this project called Recloaking Papatua Nuku,
which is proposing that we restore, regenerate, assist the development
of two million hectares of native forest, not in big blocks,
but carefully interwoven through landscapes in New Zealand to try
(03:58):
and build landscape resilience and have those native forests will
also draw down carbon.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
As well as not as much as the pine though,
right that's the problem with NAIs and they take so much.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Yeah, but they'll do it over the longer term and
they'll help build up our resilient landscapes. And the Commission
is quite clear in his report that you know, native
forests can actually provide all these benefits and of course
they help bio diversity the part of who.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
We are who pays for them.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Well, again he recommends by taking forestry out of the
e t s, it's going to make the emitters of
carbon Dix side have to pay more to buy their
carbon credits from government and that money then gets invested
back into doing to doing.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Forestry cross and then we pay more. We have higher
power bills presumably whatever it might be, you know.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Well not none of it's renewably generated. And I mean
that's the whole thing. The whole idea of the emissions
scheme is to get us to change our behavior.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
And I suppose, but then my petrol will be more
expensive on it.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Then maybe we need to be have more evs and
use use use.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Others have got a story for you, David. Have you
read the story today? Go ahead to read it. There's
a study from Aukland University. Basically, we can't have the
pine forest. We can't have the evs. I'm banging my
head against the wall here, David. I don't know what
to do.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
About.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
No, it's not about tuning out. It's about about looking
at everything we do and thinking about all those individual
small actions can all help in the long run. But
I think to me and my expertise as ecology, as
a forest ecologist and to me, we need to build
resilient communities, resilient landscapes in New Zealand and native forests,
you know, interwoven through our primary production systems, our farms
(05:42):
and our horticultural areas can really help build that and
it's going to be in the long term, and it's
what we all want all. We all relate to cody
or to cabbage trees, or to cattarou and toy you know,
it's all part of who we are.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
And I don't know how much I relate to a
cabbage tree, but I certainly I think if we're going
to go down that track, I think I would relate
more to a cabbage tree than I would to a pine.
That's a fair point. Hey, thanks for coming on the show, David.
Interesting stuff. David Norton, pure advantage Strategic Science Advisor talking
there about the Parliamentary Commission for the Environment, saying that
you know pine plantations, not the plantations, but pine paddocks,
(06:21):
paddicks filled with pine not necessarily the best thing in
the long run.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
For more from News Talks B listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!