April 22, 2025 • 9 mins
There's less than a month to go until the 2025 Budget is unveiled - and the Finance Minister has been clear about the goals she aims to tackle.
Nicola Willis says New Zealand has been in a significant deficit since 2019, and she's determined to get back into surplus by 2027/2028.
She explained getting the country back into surplus will help to pay down debt.
"We're borrowing every day right now to keep our hospitals, schools and police going - but we can't do that forever as a country, we need to get the books back in balance."
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks Be follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
With us as the Finance Minister, Nikola Will this evening, Nicolab.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Good evening, Heather.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Now I see that you're talking about starting to pay
down our debt. Are you going to start paying down
the debt this budget?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Well, the first step to paying down debt is getting
the budget back in balance. Because New Zealand has been
a deficit, spending more than we earn since twenty nineteen,
and we've previously said that we want to consolidate gradually.
Our goal is to get back into surplus by the
twenty seven twenty eight financial year. That goal remains the same.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Okay, So we get back to surplus twenty seven twenty
eight and then we start hammering the debt. Is that right?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
That's right, because once you're in surplus, of course you're
no longer borrowing to pay for the groceries and you've
got the ability to pay down debt. Of course, we're
borrowing every day right now to keep our hospitals, schools
and police going. But we can't do that forever as
a country. We need to get the books back in balance.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So what do you reckon is a good level for
debt to sit at?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Well, percent is where I would like to get it too.
I want it tracking down to there. Between twenty and
forty percent is where the government has said is what
we're comfortable with. It's now up over that level, Treasury say,
beyond fifty percent, it becomes a bit of a problem
if we get an earthquake or a climate shock or
(01:28):
any kind of big economic event.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, hold on, So are you saying that when you
leave the role as Finance minister one day, forty percent
will be a good good spot to get it too?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, well, I want it tracking down to forty percent.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Isn't it only twenty two and a half at the moment.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yes, that's right, But it's forecast to keep growing while
we're still in deficit. To what my first goal is
to get it bending back down to forty and then
we think it should comfortably sit between twenty and forty.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Okay, And so what is it going to track it?
What is it going to reach? It its height according
to forecasts?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Well, that's what I'm going to tell you at the
budget okay, very budget sensitive figure. And it needs to
be forwarded to dating.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Then you've got to have a stretch goal, right. You
can't be doing like forty three percent down to forty percent.
That's not impressive.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Well, as I say, the first thing is get your
books back in balance, and New Zealand is listening to
this will understand that the first thing to start being
able to pay down your credit card debt is to
actually not be spending more than you earn each week.
And right now New Zealand is spending more every year
than we are earning, and so we have to get
that right. And that's the prerequisite of being able to
(02:29):
pay down debt. And of course labor at every instance
say the answer to every problem is to spend more,
and they forget the fact that right now it's all
on the credit card and that credit card needs to
be repaid by your kids and my kids.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Nicholas is the received bank currently independent of view it is, well,
how did you get them to change their mind about
the capital funding? Once Adrian all left because he was like, no,
I don't want to know, I don't want to do
what you want. He's out the door. Christian and Neil
quickly decide to do what you want, Well, they took.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
That decision independent of me. You'll know that there's been
a Select Committee inquiry occurring at Parliament and to the
banking sector, and one of the issues that's been raised
by Omitta after submitter is the impact the changes in
the Reserve Bank's capital adequacy ratios have had on lending.
I think the Reserve Bank has observed that public debate
(03:19):
and in their own words, they've decided it's an appropriate
time to check in and see whether the decisions they
made back in twenty nineteen still stack.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I would agree with you on this, and I think
that they're doing the right thing. But you've got a
problem here, haven't you, Because what's being suggested in the
media today is that Neil Quigley is not independent as
the as the chair because he is with White Cutter University.
He wants you to give him a medical school. Christian
Hawksby is not independent is the acting governor because he
wants the job full time. So he's going to do
what Both of them have interests in doing what you want.
(03:49):
There's the perception problem, isn't that.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Well, I just reject that completely and I think it
impugnes the integrity of both of those people. Well, does
it not lead you to they take their roles more seriously?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
But does it not lead you to the point where
it has become obvious that neither of them can hold
those positions?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Well, no, I continue to have confidence in the Reserve Bank,
both the Acting Governor and in the chair of the
Reserve Bank Board.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
But even outside of this, do they actually deserve those
positions Because Neil Quigley was there, while Adrian All was
there and that thing was just a complete hot mess,
and so was Christian hawksby right, So they are all
part of the same kabal. Don't you need a proper
clean out?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Well, I'm very pleased that we've started by getting the
funding situation under control and stopping this business of massive
increases and how much the Reserve Bank is spens. Yeah,
I think that will go a significant way to changing culture.
I've also refreshed some of the membership of both the
Monetary Policy Committee and the Board, and I have further
opportunities to do more of that in the next few months.
(04:51):
All of those things are relevant, and I share your
concerns about some of the decisions that the Reserve Bank
made when it was in Cohertz with Grant Robertson and
they printed too much money. Yes, and I have said
previously that I do think is a country we need
to review some of that decision.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
But both of these there at the same time, Nichola,
can they continue to hold their jobs if they were
part of that administration?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Well, look, I'm satisfied that the Reserve Bank Board recommended
to me that Christian Hawksby was the best person for
that temporary role while they search for a permanent governor,
and he meets all of the criteria needed.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Okay, now listen, have you caught up on the fact
that you guys are still doing co governance? Are you
aware of this?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Well, I don't think that's quite fair. I think you're
referring to the situation in the way takes Yukland Council
is currently consulting on a proposed interpretation of a deed
and look, that's out for consultation. People will have their say.
None of it, as I understand it would override existing governance.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What have I got wrong?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Statutory?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
What have I got wrong? Calling this co governance?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Well, as I understand it, the proposal being consulted on
is not final. First second, I understand it's not intended
to override the existing governance structure or the statutory powers.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
What government structures and strategory powers are you talking about.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Well, I'm talking about the fact that the Council is
still the democratically elected Council, that the Crown is still
the democratically elective crown. Well, so that will ensure that
the positions of the Crown and the Council continue to
be represented effectively. Whooped to do?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
It's co governance. It's a committee that makes decisions. Fifty
percent of it is tongue's if you know, with fifty
percent is Crown and Council. That is co governance.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Well, look to anyone listening, it's out for consultation right now.
So why are you doing this?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
When you guys are elected. You came out against three Waters,
you came out against the new RMA, and it was
implicit in that that you guys were going to stop
the co governance. So why is the same stuff happening
under you guys.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Well, this relates to an Act of Parliament from two
thousand and eight which already sets up a deed and
Auckland Council are currently consulting on how they want to
give effect to that deed. No decisions have been made.
People should have their say.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Are you cool with us?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well? To be honest, hither, the first I heard of
it was about half an hour ago when my press
team said, heither wants to ask you about this, so
I will be seeking to get more information about it.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
In that case, I feel slightly bad coming as hard
at you as I have, But can you go away,
have a look at it, take some advice, come back
to me and let me know if your government is
chill about this, because it would be a huge disappointment
to me if you were. But while we're on the
subject of things that we are discovering now, it seems
to me that what you've given Winston is a picture
(07:45):
of a train? Is that what's happened?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
As I said, look, I respect Winston's desire for privacy.
When I gave he told me that birthday, oh he
told you? Okay, yeah, well, then that's absolutely fine. If
he's revealed that information. Then I gave him a vintage
poster from the railways from the seventh and it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
From his heyday. So the thing is, do you realize
he hasn't even looked at it yet.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, he looked at it with me in front of him,
but I don't think it's on display or anything.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I don't think it's soaked in, because he said to me, oh,
I was really busy and I was going to go
out the door, and I haven't actually looked at it.
So you might have to get him, might have to
get him back there and looking at it again. Do
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Anyway, Well, I'm glad that he's got more important things
to do than look at train posters. Hey, can it
be with the world as it is? Right?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
No, listen on Winston though, Are you guys going to
support this definition of a woman that he's putting into
a member's bill.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Well, look, we haven't taken that bill to caucus yet.
Our practices that we decide our positions on bills as
a team when bills are pulled from the ballot. For
my part, what is a woman? Well, a woman is
an adult human female. That's pretty clear to me. Let
live person. So how people then choose to self identify,
(09:03):
that's over to them. But the law often needs to
be a bit more black and white than that. So
we just a matter of how does this axually apply
to the law what I'm peple I.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Have Nicholas, thank you for your time. As always, we'll
talk next week about co governance. That's Nicola Willi's Finance Minister.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
For more from News Talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks Be follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
With us as the Finance Minister, Nikola Will this evening, Nicolab.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Good evening, Heather.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Now I see that you're talking about starting to pay
down our debt. Are you going to start paying down
the debt this budget?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Well, the first step to paying down debt is getting
the budget back in balance. Because New Zealand has been
a deficit, spending more than we earn since twenty nineteen,
and we've previously said that we want to consolidate gradually.
Our goal is to get back into surplus by the
twenty seven twenty eight financial year. That goal remains the same.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Okay, So we get back to surplus twenty seven twenty
eight and then we start hammering the debt. Is that right?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
That's right, because once you're in surplus, of course you're
no longer borrowing to pay for the groceries and you've
got the ability to pay down debt. Of course, we're
borrowing every day right now to keep our hospitals, schools
and police going. But we can't do that forever as
a country. We need to get the books back in balance.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So what do you reckon is a good level for
debt to sit at?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Well, percent is where I would like to get it too.
I want it tracking down to there. Between twenty and
forty percent is where the government has said is what
we're comfortable with. It's now up over that level, Treasury say,
beyond fifty percent, it becomes a bit of a problem
if we get an earthquake or a climate shock or
(01:28):
any kind of big economic event.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, hold on, So are you saying that when you
leave the role as Finance minister one day, forty percent
will be a good good spot to get it too?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, well, I want it tracking down to forty percent.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Isn't it only twenty two and a half at the moment.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yes, that's right, But it's forecast to keep growing while
we're still in deficit. To what my first goal is
to get it bending back down to forty and then
we think it should comfortably sit between twenty and forty.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Okay, And so what is it going to track it?
What is it going to reach? It its height according
to forecasts?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Well, that's what I'm going to tell you at the
budget okay, very budget sensitive figure. And it needs to
be forwarded to dating.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Then you've got to have a stretch goal, right. You
can't be doing like forty three percent down to forty percent.
That's not impressive.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Well, as I say, the first thing is get your
books back in balance, and New Zealand is listening to
this will understand that the first thing to start being
able to pay down your credit card debt is to
actually not be spending more than you earn each week.
And right now New Zealand is spending more every year
than we are earning, and so we have to get
that right. And that's the prerequisite of being able to
(02:29):
pay down debt. And of course labor at every instance
say the answer to every problem is to spend more,
and they forget the fact that right now it's all
on the credit card and that credit card needs to
be repaid by your kids and my kids.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Nicholas is the received bank currently independent of view it is, well,
how did you get them to change their mind about
the capital funding? Once Adrian all left because he was like, no,
I don't want to know, I don't want to do
what you want. He's out the door. Christian and Neil
quickly decide to do what you want, Well, they took.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
That decision independent of me. You'll know that there's been
a Select Committee inquiry occurring at Parliament and to the
banking sector, and one of the issues that's been raised
by Omitta after submitter is the impact the changes in
the Reserve Bank's capital adequacy ratios have had on lending.
I think the Reserve Bank has observed that public debate
(03:19):
and in their own words, they've decided it's an appropriate
time to check in and see whether the decisions they
made back in twenty nineteen still stack.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I would agree with you on this, and I think
that they're doing the right thing. But you've got a
problem here, haven't you, Because what's being suggested in the
media today is that Neil Quigley is not independent as
the as the chair because he is with White Cutter University.
He wants you to give him a medical school. Christian
Hawksby is not independent is the acting governor because he
wants the job full time. So he's going to do
what Both of them have interests in doing what you want.
(03:49):
There's the perception problem, isn't that.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Well, I just reject that completely and I think it
impugnes the integrity of both of those people. Well, does
it not lead you to they take their roles more seriously?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
But does it not lead you to the point where
it has become obvious that neither of them can hold
those positions?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Well, no, I continue to have confidence in the Reserve Bank,
both the Acting Governor and in the chair of the
Reserve Bank Board.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
But even outside of this, do they actually deserve those
positions Because Neil Quigley was there, while Adrian All was
there and that thing was just a complete hot mess,
and so was Christian hawksby right, So they are all
part of the same kabal. Don't you need a proper
clean out?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Well, I'm very pleased that we've started by getting the
funding situation under control and stopping this business of massive
increases and how much the Reserve Bank is spens. Yeah,
I think that will go a significant way to changing culture.
I've also refreshed some of the membership of both the
Monetary Policy Committee and the Board, and I have further
opportunities to do more of that in the next few months.
(04:51):
All of those things are relevant, and I share your
concerns about some of the decisions that the Reserve Bank
made when it was in Cohertz with Grant Robertson and
they printed too much money. Yes, and I have said
previously that I do think is a country we need
to review some of that decision.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
But both of these there at the same time, Nichola,
can they continue to hold their jobs if they were
part of that administration?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Well, look, I'm satisfied that the Reserve Bank Board recommended
to me that Christian Hawksby was the best person for
that temporary role while they search for a permanent governor,
and he meets all of the criteria needed.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Okay, now listen, have you caught up on the fact
that you guys are still doing co governance? Are you
aware of this?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Well, I don't think that's quite fair. I think you're
referring to the situation in the way takes Yukland Council
is currently consulting on a proposed interpretation of a deed
and look, that's out for consultation. People will have their say.
None of it, as I understand it would override existing governance.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What have I got wrong?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Statutory?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
What have I got wrong? Calling this co governance?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Well, as I understand it, the proposal being consulted on
is not final. First second, I understand it's not intended
to override the existing governance structure or the statutory powers.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
What government structures and strategory powers are you talking about.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Well, I'm talking about the fact that the Council is
still the democratically elected Council, that the Crown is still
the democratically elective crown. Well, so that will ensure that
the positions of the Crown and the Council continue to
be represented effectively. Whooped to do?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
It's co governance. It's a committee that makes decisions. Fifty
percent of it is tongue's if you know, with fifty
percent is Crown and Council. That is co governance.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Well, look to anyone listening, it's out for consultation right now.
So why are you doing this?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
When you guys are elected. You came out against three Waters,
you came out against the new RMA, and it was
implicit in that that you guys were going to stop
the co governance. So why is the same stuff happening
under you guys.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Well, this relates to an Act of Parliament from two
thousand and eight which already sets up a deed and
Auckland Council are currently consulting on how they want to
give effect to that deed. No decisions have been made.
People should have their say.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Are you cool with us?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well? To be honest, hither, the first I heard of
it was about half an hour ago when my press
team said, heither wants to ask you about this, so
I will be seeking to get more information about it.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
In that case, I feel slightly bad coming as hard
at you as I have, But can you go away,
have a look at it, take some advice, come back
to me and let me know if your government is
chill about this, because it would be a huge disappointment
to me if you were. But while we're on the
subject of things that we are discovering now, it seems
to me that what you've given Winston is a picture
(07:45):
of a train? Is that what's happened?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
As I said, look, I respect Winston's desire for privacy.
When I gave he told me that birthday, oh he
told you? Okay, yeah, well, then that's absolutely fine. If
he's revealed that information. Then I gave him a vintage
poster from the railways from the seventh and it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
From his heyday. So the thing is, do you realize
he hasn't even looked at it yet.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, he looked at it with me in front of him,
but I don't think it's on display or anything.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I don't think it's soaked in, because he said to me, oh,
I was really busy and I was going to go
out the door, and I haven't actually looked at it.
So you might have to get him, might have to
get him back there and looking at it again. Do
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Anyway, Well, I'm glad that he's got more important things
to do than look at train posters. Hey, can it
be with the world as it is? Right?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
No, listen on Winston though, Are you guys going to
support this definition of a woman that he's putting into
a member's bill.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Well, look, we haven't taken that bill to caucus yet.
Our practices that we decide our positions on bills as
a team when bills are pulled from the ballot. For
my part, what is a woman? Well, a woman is
an adult human female. That's pretty clear to me. Let
live person. So how people then choose to self identify,
(09:03):
that's over to them. But the law often needs to
be a bit more black and white than that. So
we just a matter of how does this axually apply
to the law what I'm peple I.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Have Nicholas, thank you for your time. As always, we'll
talk next week about co governance. That's Nicola Willi's Finance Minister.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
For more from News Talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!