December 1, 2025 • 48 mins
In the latest episode of Great Chats with Francesca Rudkin, famed chef Yotam Ottolenghi talks finding the joy of cooking and talks his stage show coming to New Zealand in 2026.
We hear from Black Grace Dance Company founder Neil Ieremia as the group celebrates 30 years of stunning performances.
Plus Bill Bryson talks revisiting and revising his iconic book A Short History of Nearly Everything.
Great Chats with Francesca Rudkin brings you the best interviews from Newstalk ZB's The Sunday Session.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks EDB. The big names, the fascinating guests,
the thoughtful conversations, bringing you the best interviews from the
Sunday Session. This is Great Chats with Francesca Rudkin, powered
(00:27):
by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello and welcome to Great Chats. I'm Francisco Rudkin, host
of the Sunday Session on News Talks EDB, and in
this podcast, we pick some of our favorite feature interviews
from over the last month for you to enjoy. Shortly,
I chat to Neil Iramer, founder and director artistic director
of Black Gray Starts Company. This year, they've been celebrating
their thirtieth anniversary, which is pretty remarkable. Bill Bryson also
(00:51):
joins us to talk about why he decided to come
out of retirement to update his best selling science book,
Short History of Nearly Everything. But first up, we're talking
cooking with world famous chef and author Yotam Ottalini. So
Yotam is heading to New Zealand next year in two
thousand Pretty Sicks with his life tour and evening with
Otto Liny. So I began by asking him, as someone
(01:12):
who loves food, how do you handle these whirlwind tours.
He's doing twenty one events in under a month.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I ask myself this question every day. I enjoy the
tours very much, but they're hectic, they're intense, and I
have so, you know, I visit effectively. I'm doing a
city a day. Really, really, that's what I do. So
the timing is not great because it means I arrive somewhere,
you know, just after lunch, and then I go into
(01:43):
a room with a lot of great people, and then
I get out and I don't want to have dinner,
so I snack. I have breakfast if I can, and
if I want to taste it, you know, the taste
of the flavor of a city. I ask people where's
the best place to go for breakfast, and then I
try to get my breakfast before I fly over to
the next place. So it's it's about juggling. But I
(02:04):
do make sure that I have a good meal, at
least one in every city that.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I go to.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I did wonder Yachtam whether this is why in your
tour you include a live cooking demonstration on stage so
that you actually have some dinner.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
The last thing I want to eat is on tour
is my own food, I have to say. But but yes,
I mean, I tour on statu and I am. I'm
quite flexible with the way I eat. So I'm just
happy to eat whether there's around it, whether whatever I
have around And yeah, I mean, cooking on stage really
(02:41):
is just about sharing some prints, some basic great techniques
that I've kind of develop over time to show people
how to expand their their how they cook and what
they cook, but without all the half much effort and hassle.
(03:03):
So I've noticed over the years that's some people, but
not everybody, find cooking a little bit taxing, like they're intimidating.
Some people think that love cooking, but they don't know
how to expand their repertoire. So what I do when
I cook on stage and I don't cook a lot,
and I cook a couple of things is try to
(03:25):
demonstrate that actually there is It's not so easy. The
entry point to cooking can be quite low, and you
still get something very delicious at the end of it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I think we all go through periods, don't we of
experiencing all those things or just sort of suddenly losing inspiration.
Feeling like you've been cooking the same thing over and over.
It's nice to heaven input of some fresh ideas, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Yes? And you know it also happens to me. You know,
you spend a whole day at work doing one thing
or another and then you come home and you open
the fridge and you're just not feeling inspired. And it's yeah,
it happens to everyone. And there is I think what
(04:07):
there is some you could use. You can give yourself
a break effectively, That's what I want to say. You
can cook with things that you can reheat something you
had the night before and then juge it up with
something else you could There's all sorts of little shortcuts
of a flavor that I use a lot.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
Like.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
For me, one of the best things that I can
do when I get home and if I don't need
to feed the crowd, is to put on a part
of rice and I and that takes a very little
time if I don't soak the rice for too long.
And whilst I do that, I am I grate some cheese.
(04:45):
Maybe I find a nice chili oil or chili crisp
that I have in my friend and put that all together,
maybe some fried onion that I've had again, like all
like shop bought, And as soon as the rice is ready,
I grate some cheese into it, that put some black pepper,
put the chili sauce on top. And it's a kind
of a quick fix, a quick meal, but it's just
(05:06):
something that you do almost automatically and you don't need
to think too much. It's not special, but it's just
so delicious.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Do we overthink cooking in foods? Sometimes?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
My feeling is that we have had we're kind of
overcompensating for something that has happened over I don't know,
the last winter or thirty years. So if you look back,
I mean, again, I don't want to be too nostalgic
about it, but I think when I was growing up,
cooking was so much part of of what the day
to day looked like. You know, it was just ingrained
(05:39):
in my parents' life. And then we went through the
seventies and the eighties, and I show my age and
then it was all about like fixes, quick fixes. You know,
you could get something ready from the freezer, you can
get something this. We got a little bit addicted to takeaways,
et cetera, and we lost the instinct for cooking. And
(06:04):
what happened is that then and all sorts of things
happen in the world, and especially with COVID, people just
found themselves being disconnected food from food and thought like, oh,
I've got to relearn that skill. I've got to be
a good cook again. And and it's okay. I mean,
I think it's a really good instinct. I think it's
the right thing to do. But I think we do
(06:25):
overthink it sometimes because there are a lot of solutions,
solutions out there. There's things you can buy too, So
not every time you go into the kitchen you need
to start from scratch. You can. You can start one
thing from scratch and then the other thing you can
buy great quality things. That sits there in the shelf
of the supermarket is a sauce, you know, like a pesto,
(06:45):
and then you're augmented with other things or or a
quick piece of fish, and then the rest of it
is ready cooked rise that is also there. So I
think we should be a little bit more flexible and
not and like you say, not overthinking it's you.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Know, I know that as you're talking, you know, you're
talking here about sort of making cooking more relaxed and
less stressful. I know that that's important to you and
sort of a focus of the show. So how do
we kind of remove those barriers maybe to cooking when
it does be a little bit hard.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
This is what Yeah, this is what I'm I'm going
to do during my show. First of all, show tell
people that they shouldn't be so hard on themselves, that
should they should give themselves a break sometimes. And you know,
and it's okay to, like I said now, to half
cook a meal and the other half, to to use
things that are already there, to use things that from cans,
from tins, from jars. You know, there's such a great
(07:39):
variety of options around. And then there is a couple
of basic skills that are really really great, and I
kind of go over them. I don't know what. I
don't want to give away the whole show, but I'll
give a couple of little examples. I mean, if you
can get yourself to make a great roast chicken or
roasted selaria, or if you can make a really delicious
(08:03):
vinegrette or two. Those are some basic skills that you
have there. And then the rest is stuff that you
pick here. And there. So, for example, when you think
of a vinigred, you think a salad or maybe crudeed taste,
but actually a really good vinegret and there's like there's citrus,
bass or vinegar, vinegar bases. Some would have a bit
of nuts, some have charlottes, some have garlic. I mean,
(08:25):
they are they vary. But if you have one that
you really love and you're very good at doing, then
that's like half your job done. Because then you take
a tray of vegetables, whether it's root vegetables or rassicas
you know, cabbages, et cetera, you put it in the
oven with a bit of old roasted As soon as
it comes out, you drizzle with a vinegred and you
(08:46):
have something so delicious and so quick and easy. So
those basic things that you have at your hand are
a way to kind of mitigate that stress that some
people feel or feeling a bit jaded.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
You describe before that feeling of coming home and opening
the fridge and looking at what's inside and trying to
think what you're going to whip up. There are now
AI apps that you can use whereby you put a
group of ingredients in and they give you a recipe,
would you ever use one of those apps?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
I would, yeah, definitely. I mean I don't know if
the recipe is going to be great because I haven't
tried it, but as in it for ideas, yeah, why not.
I mean I have I'm in a very fortunate position
where I've got, you know this, like behind me, I've
got like a normal I haven't counted. I think like
(09:37):
well over two thousand recipes that I've published over the years,
and I think they cover most combinations of recipes. So
sometimes I have a confession. Sometimes I go online on
Google and I go like autolenggy, you know, lamb shoulder,
and I a couple of other recipes ingredients, and I
(09:59):
google it, and then all of a sudden, a lot
of ideas come so, oh yes, I remember that dish.
So I do I myself use the you know, use
use use a computer to come up with ideas or
to really re imagine like what I did before. And
it's actually very useful. But I think none of that
is takes away the joy of actually learning how to
(10:22):
cook properly. And I think again that's another thing that
I really want to emphasize to people, the skill of
cooking is something that you can't really learn or have
just by kind of googling recipes or looking at an
AI bot that tells you, you know, put all these
(10:43):
things together. It's just these are kind of basic things,
instinctive things that you feel with your hands as you cook.
And I think it's a wonderful thing to learn and
to know how to do. And again, you don't need
to be a master chef, but you can be a
really kind of a good cook really just by knowing
a few basic things that take you a long way.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
How has the way you cook changed or evolved over
the years.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
So I've been through stages.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
When I started cooking, I wanted to throw everything at
every dish that I used to cook. And I look
at old recipes that I've published, and I said to him, say, oh,
what were you thinking? Was it really necessary to have
so many things? And you know, people do make fun
of and still do make fun of me if you're saying,
like autolnthy recipes, you know, it's never less than sixteen
(11:35):
ingreedy ingredients and they had to be obscure. And I
kind of take the shame a little bit and think like, Okay, well,
I did. There are some old recipes or not that
old recipes that feel a little bit over the top,
but I've never done that just in order to challenge
people's I've always felt that there is added value, excuse me,
(11:56):
by putting all these things together in a bowl or
in a pot. These days, I think a little bit
more on what can be taken way, and I spend
quite a lot of time to think what is essential,
you know, what is essential in this dish? Because I
think about myself, how long am I going to spend
in the kitchen? Is it going to be worth my while?
(12:17):
And what is the real DNA of a dish? And
what is just unnecessary? Also because I've had I have kids,
there are like in nearly teenagers now, but they were
young that long ago, and I realized that I need
to think a lot about like the practicality of cooking
for a family. And I think that's another thing that
I haven't spent much time thinking at the beginning of
(12:40):
my career. So I'm much more forgiving and practical these days.
But I still love to create a feast, you know,
to make something from scraps that has a lot of
layers of flavor, but I just don't do it every
single day.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Do you take a lot of pride in how the
Ottling way of cooking has changed how people cook and
eat around the world because you have been hugely influential
in that respect.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
I take a lot of pride in that. Yeah, that's
the one thing that I've for I never undermine, you know.
I always think people say to me, what is your
greatest achievement, And I think, oh, I just don't think
in those terms. But then, but then when I do
think deeply about it, My greatest achievement for me is
(13:24):
when someone comes to me and says, oh, you know,
I've cooked your green beans with hazel nuts and orange
from their first cookbook. I've been cooking it for like
the last decade or two, and my family cooks it.
It's become part of our repertoire. And for me, this
is something huge because it's not you know, recipes come
and go, and books come and go, and even in
(13:46):
news articles, but something that stays in people's minds, like
a way of cooking, is a dish, a particular dish
that stays with them, or an idea is really it
goes really deep and they might pass it on to
the next generation. And that really is like the biggest
gift that people can give me, just telling me that
(14:07):
it's part of their lives, of how they cook, of
how they get together around the table.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I have been making your cheesecake. One of your cheesecakes
probably for about I don't know, twenty twenty five years.
It was one that had it had this incredible topping.
It was like a toffee caramelized topping.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
And then.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, and it was quite extravagant, and it was
the first time that I went, oh, hang on, I
can be ambitious. I can make something quite extraordinary. But
that cheesecake itself, the baked cheesecake has been used as
I've done a million things with it, you know, put
a million different toppings on it, and I'm still making it.
I still just trust that one. It works every time.
(14:49):
So and it's passed on and my daughter now does it.
So there we go. There's an example of that very much.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, I totally. First of all, I'm so glad that
you're telling me this. But then again, I think what
you just said is so important because you've cooked that recipe,
and I take a lot of pride in you know
and producing recipes that work and I'm thoroughly tested, et cetera.
But then you often you make it your own. And
(15:16):
that's the message that I'm trying to pass on to
people and say, like, yes, there's all these great recipes
out there, you know, and you can go on an
AI search engine, or you can search on Google or
wherever you get your recipes, but actually there's all the
things that you could do yourself. So once you've acquired
that skill and making a cheesecake or a baked rice
(15:38):
or whatever it is that you're making, then you can
just be very playful. And that's a basic joy, the
joy of cooking, not the joy of following a recipe,
which is another great joy, which I often do, but
the joy of knowing what you're doing, getting in the
kitchen and working on autopilot, not thinking, relaxing, listening to music,
and cooking something that you're super proud of.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
How do you feel about food and eating trenes? Do
you pay attention to them at all?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
To trends?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, yes, food trends and you know we're eating this
these days or this is the produce you need to eat.
Do you pay much attention to that or do you
just stick with seasonal produce and what you like and
quite traditional.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
That I have to pay attention to everything that's happening
because it's part of my professional obligation, you know, to
know what's going on, to go out to try things.
But I don't like food trends only because I feel
that there's something a bit compulsive about those ideas. I
(16:43):
think they come and go. I think their function is
for journalists and not for people. You know, they are
there to tell a story. But in a way, the
trends come and go, but certain things never go, and
I think it's more important to focus on what is timeless.
And then again, you know, I'm not completely ignoring the
(17:09):
fact that people do think in such a way that
people get inspired from social media, you know, Instagram and TikTok,
and that does become a trend, and that's also totally legit,
but I just question the longevity of that, like how
long that would last? I think certain things. So one
of the things that I say in the show is
that like tried to think a little bit about what
(17:32):
you know and how you grew up eating and try
to connect to that rather than what you see on
a screen because that would is more likely to sustain
you over time. You know, it's more likely to to
any even if you didn't grow up in a foody house.
I mean, think of things that you've been exposed to
and are meaningful to you, rather than trying to conquer
(17:54):
the net cuisine or the next ingredient, because in some
ways it's it's okay, but it's quite it's it's transient
often and it doesn't really stick full for the long term.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yochtam thank you so much for your time today. So
appreciate it and very excited that you're heading back to
New Zealand in the new year. We look forward to
seeing you then.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Oh, I can't wait to be back in New Zealand
and eat all the delicious food and try your seafood
that I miss so much. So yeah, thank you for
the interview and I can't wait to be back.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
The biggest names from the Sunday session great chats with
Brancheska Rudkin on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It'd be that was Yochtam ottterlingy delightful a. I love
the bit in the interview where he said he had
to google his own recipes at times to remember them.
I mean, it is understandable if you have written eleven cookbooks.
Right up next, Black Grace founder and artistic director Neil
Eramia joins me. So thirty years ago he created this
now iconic New Zealand dance company that's changed dance in
(18:57):
this country. And to mark the anniversary, Black Grace has
toured a double bill, the world premiere of Neil's own
if ever, there was a time alongside Esplanade, which is
from legendary choreographer Paul Taylor. But to begin the conversation,
I asked Neil if he could go back thirty years
and tell us what it was like to start Black
Grace in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
There's a long time ago. For sure, it was quite unusual.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
I mean, obviously the dance wasn't a big thing, particularly
for males in this country back then, and.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
In particular for mild and Pacific men.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
It wasn't something we kind of did back then, and
there weren't a lot of us around.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Really.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
There were some great luminary some earlier dances, but you know,
it wasn't the kind of thing that you did. So
deciding to start a dance company. Everyone thought, I was
absolutely mad.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
What did exist back then? There must have been the
Douglas Wright Dance Company. Maybe was Limbs around.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
And yeah ctainly.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Yeah, So contemporary dance and alter at all New Zealand
is still very very young compared to Dance Overseas and
Limbs Dance Company. He had been going for a while
but had just closed I think around nineteen eighty nine,
nineteen eighty eight eighty nine, and then the Douglas Wright
Dance Company started.
Speaker 6 (20:15):
And Douglas had.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Worked for Paul Taylor in New York whose work were.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
Presenting at the end of the year.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
So it's kind of a nice little a piece through,
a legacy piece through and I worked for Douglas for
a large part of my freelancing career, but that was
sort of it.
Speaker 6 (20:34):
There was Michael.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Palment and Seanan mccullu was also around with her company.
Mary Jane O'Reilly had just choreographed the Commonwealth Games opening
to you know, huge critical acclaim, but still there weren't
a lot of men around, and so I remember when we.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
Put on our first show and it actually sold out.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
It was at the Kenneth Maidmon Theater and at the
University there, and we put on our first show and
it sold out before we actually opened, which was quite
InCred But afterwards, while I was talking to some people,
and a couple of the women there thought they were
coming to see a bunch of strippers.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Not quite, not quite.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
I mean, you know, there were sort of ten these
ten guys who kind of looked kind of sort of
athletic and things, and I suppose they thought they were
coming to see that.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Oh a great story. So setting it up? Was it
a matter of finding a place for Pacific and Mari
dancers or men or what.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
We look I you know, I have great respect and
a great love for the art form and for the
you know, the choreographers and practitioners here. But when I started,
I couldn't see anyone telling stories about people like me
from the neighborhoods I grew up in, Like I grew
(22:02):
up in Kennis Creek and Porty Door, and I wasn't
really seeing that portrayed in the arts generally, and I
didn't see a lot of people that looked like me involved,
especially in dance. So I just wanted to tell some stories. Really,
you know, I like a good sort of gas bag
and I like to sort of have a gin wag
(22:22):
with a few people, but I wanted to do it
in a really physical way, in an artistic way, and
I just thought I would. So Black Grace is kind
of that. It's the vehicle that helped us tell a
few stories.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
You were young when you set it up twenty four?
Did you know? And I mean it's the nicest possible way,
but did you know what you were doing? Did you
know what you were in for?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
No?
Speaker 6 (22:49):
And sut No. I was a real dreamer, I think,
you know.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
I remember at dance school I made a list of
things that I wanted to achieve. By the time I
turned thirty and I was at dance school, I'd left
my home in Kennison and Potidor to come to Auckland
to start Black Grace, well, to go to dance school actually,
and then part way through dance school, I thought I'd
better I'd better.
Speaker 6 (23:15):
Get onto it.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
You see, I'd been working in a bank for about
two years, learning how to massage my cuticles and taiwinds,
a knots and things like that. So my parents were
heartbroken when I told them I was leaving that job
to pursue a career in dance, so I had no
idea what I was doing. But you know, I knew
that I wanted to set something up that would become
(23:38):
a legacy company. And I made that list a dance school,
and I put on it by the time I turned thirty.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
I want to own my own dance company. I want
to own.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
A PMW and I want to and I want my
home and I want to own a home.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
And I got there. So the BMW was trash, but
everything else was great.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I think I'm right in saying that you're actually visiting
your parents this weekend. And you know, I know that
you just said they were disappointed when you left the bank,
but I think your mum wanted you to be a preacher.
They must be pretty impressed with the career that you've
made for yourself though in dancing.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Look, we're a kind of family that don't really kind
of pat each other on the backs too much, so
I'm sure they're proud. But you know, I think my
mum's still disappointed that I'm I didn't become a man of.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
The cloth, so to speak. But look, you know I
remember telling her I was going to dance school.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
Was she just cried, you know, and Dad he just
did the classical tut tut tut, you know it and
kind of didn't talk to me for I don't know months, But.
Speaker 6 (24:55):
But yeah, they've been there all the way through.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
And one important thing when I did start Black Grace
in nineteen ninety five and then I opened a studio
and I needed to apply for a business from the
Pacific Business Trusts because I wanted to open the studio
because I figured that, you know, people needed to see
a physical thing to believe that.
Speaker 6 (25:18):
That it was real.
Speaker 5 (25:20):
And we didn't have any We didn't have a home either.
It was a crazy thing to do and it was
right in Federal Street, just behind Saint Matt's Church where
I think Auckland Yoga is now. But I took that
on and I applied for a loan and they needed,
you know, some collateral for that loan and I had nothing,
so I asked my parents if they'd put their house
up for me, and they did.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
So there.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I think that says it all, really, doesn't it. And look,
I think they will very much recognize and be very
proud of what you've achieved for the arts and New
Zealand dance and men and dance and Pacifica and dance
I have. How have you made it work? Because the
arts isn't an easy place and surviving for thirty years
is pretty impressive.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
Look, I have to give credit to my mum here.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
She's always been the great kind of finance minister of
our family, and she's managed to make a small amount
of money go a long way, particularly when we're growing up.
And I guess some of that's rubbed off on me.
And I'm very, very practical about things. So I have
this kind of crazy this thing from both of my parents.
(26:31):
So on my dad's side, he's very artistic and very creative,
and my mum's very practical and.
Speaker 6 (26:38):
And so I have both of those things.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
And for an artist, I guess that's real, because you're
always arguing with yourself, you know, particularly you know, I'm.
Speaker 6 (26:47):
The artistic director and chief executive Black Grace, and those
are those are real jobs.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
That's not just some sort of fancy title that I
think people think it's nice to have.
Speaker 6 (26:57):
I have. You know, I still write all the budgets
for Black Grace.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
I used to do all of the reporting for a
very very long time, and it's only recently that I've
met to sort of pass those on to other people.
But at the same time I have to be creative
and get in the studio. So finding that balance has
been a long journey, but it's been a worthwhile one
and because of that, I think we've been able to
steer the company in the right direction with the help
(27:21):
of a wonderful, you know board. Over the years, We've
had some amazing people on it, the likes of Hayden
Wong from Bell Gully, Julian Knight Beneath many you know.
So we've had some great some great governance over the
years and that's helped me out a lot and taught
me a huge amount.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
But basically, we just go overseas.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Make more money over there in sort of six weeks
than we do here in an entire year, and then
we come home and lose it all.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Well, but I was going to say, a lot of
people probably don't realize, you know, you're so well established
here in New Zealand, but very well established in the
global market as well.
Speaker 6 (28:01):
Yeah, and that's really necessary.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
I mean, we you know, we just we have to
export and basically that's how we stay alive. We have
a great sustaining partner in Creative New Zealand and others.
But it's our work that we do over in particularly
North America. We used to do it to.
Speaker 6 (28:18):
Europe every other year when we weren't in the States.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
But now the world's starting to open up again, and
you know, this year already we've been to Japan. We're
about to head off to Canada after the closing night
in christ Church, and then early next year we're back
up to Hawaii and then.
Speaker 6 (28:35):
Off to Italy.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
So that enables us to run programs here and to
keep prices relatively affordable for the company's you know, reputation
and tenure. But yeah, we've got good people around, you know,
that's all.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
Like I said, it's not just me.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
It's a whole bunch of really fantastic, clever folk that
pitching and and help make it and believe in this idea.
You know, we're in the we're in the business of
building ladders, we like to say, and you know, so
that people we can leave a whole bunch of leaders
behind so people can get up to.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
But yeah, I'm taking a lot from this today. I'm
gonna I'm gonna be calling myself a Finance Minister at
home from now on. I love this idea of ladders.
I think this is this is one for the dreamers.
This interview really quickly. What is the standard of dance
like in New Zealand at the moment do you think.
Speaker 5 (29:35):
Look, you know, to be fair, we've had our challenges,
I think with training just generally right across the board
in every industry.
Speaker 6 (29:44):
I think if anyone you talk to.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Would say that that, you know, it's probably not as
as good as it should be, and for various reasons.
I always I kind of think, you know, it's got
to do with, uh, the idea of having to pay
for your education, your tertiary education.
Speaker 6 (30:04):
When I was at you know, I used to yes
past university.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Entrance to get into university and then it was kind
of a based on merits. But these days I think
it's you've got enough money to pay for your fees
or whatever and you can sort of get there.
Speaker 6 (30:17):
But look, it's challenging, and that's what i'd say.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
But you know, there's always hope, and I'm always hopeful
that we can we can turn that around.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
And I'm sure we will.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Tell me a little bit about this upcoming double bill
performance and what people can expect.
Speaker 6 (30:32):
Oh, well, it's going to be incredible.
Speaker 5 (30:34):
Paul Taylor used to dance with Martha Graham, the late
Paul Taylor. It's a New York based company seventy one
years old, and the work that we've licensed from them
is one of the most iconic pieces of modern dance globally.
Speaker 6 (30:49):
It's called Esplanade, and it was one of my.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Favorite works just watching as a young choreographer or spying choreographer.
And Douglas, right I mentioned earlier worked for Paul Taylor
when he was in New York before going on to
start his own company, and then of course I worked
for Port for Douglas, And so we're putting with licensed Esplanade,
(31:13):
and that's one of those crazy old modern dance pieces
with the leotards and the kind of the genes and things.
But I think, you know, dance dance lovers will absolutely
love it. And I just think it's wonderful to bring
that type of work here because it hasn't been seen here, well,
it hasn't been performed by a New Zealand company at all,
and he brought his own company here in nineteen ninety nine,
(31:34):
I believe, and that was the last time, so you know,
it'll be a great piece of work to see. And
then I've made my little kind of piece which I
started off trying to be kind of happy and wanting
to make something beautiful, and I kind of just ended
up making a whole bunch of short stories. I mean,
I don't you never know, right, You've just got to
(31:55):
posit it out there and see how to see what happens.
Speaker 6 (31:57):
But I'm I'm really happy with it.
Speaker 5 (32:00):
It's beautifully musical, and it's here I am talking about
my own work like it's great.
Speaker 6 (32:06):
It's how terrible On the Sunday.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Night, Well, if you don't, If you don't, I.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Will be bringing you the best interviews from the Sunday session.
Great chats with Francesca Rudkin on iHeartRadio Empowered by News
Talks at b That was Neil E.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Rema, founder of dance group Black Grace. I went to
that show. Oh my goodness, it was amazing. If you
got to it too, I'm sure that you were blown
away by it. I really enjoyed talking to people in
the arts of New Zealand because they're not only hugely talented,
but also do they have to be very resourceful and
resilient and ambitious. It's pretty impressive. These guys have been
around for thirty years. To finish up, a chat with
(32:44):
Bill Bryson. Now, Bill is the author of the best
selling popular science book of the twenty first century of
Short History of Nearly Everything. It was originally released in
two thousand and three and sold over two million copies.
But it's changed a lot since then. Well, science has
changed a lot, right, The world's changed a lot, we
know a lot more So Bill decided to update the book,
and I started by asking him just how big and
(33:06):
undert hiking.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
This was more than I expected. I mean, I knew
it would be a big job. The book is, you know,
was written more than twenty years ago, as you've just said,
and it's all about science and me trying to understand
everything in the world of science to the whole history
of the universe. So obviously a massive amount has changed
in those twenty years, and I knew that it would
(33:30):
be quite a big job, but it actually turned out
to be even bigger than I expected. It was. It
was fun. I enjoyed it a lot. You know. I've
been kind of retired for a few years and this,
So I came out of retirement to do this, and
I really had a good time doing it. It made
me remember, you know, the joys of actually working to
be the writer. But it involved a lot more you know,
(33:55):
traveling around and interviewing people and trying to bring myself
up to speed than I had that I had quite
bargained for. But on the whole, I'm really glad I
did it, and I really enjoyed doing it.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Was there any difference in the researching and writing of
this book in twenty twenty five compete to twenty twenty three,
because we've had a few sort of technological advances in
that time, haven't we.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Yes, I mean completely different. I mean when I did
the book, the book came out in two thousand and three,
but I really started doing the research on it, and
you know, around about nineteen ninety eight, ninety nine, and
it was just at the time when the internet was
coming in and you know, and you couldn't I mean,
there was no kind of like it was just so
much harder to fact check back then. If I wanted
(34:41):
to check any kind of fact, I had to get
you know, put on clothes and get in my car
and drive it to the library and try and find
things there. Now, of course, you can fact check anything.
I mean, you know I could if I needed to
know that I don't know, just into Arden's middle name,
I could do it in an instant. But back then
I would have had to go off and you know,
(35:03):
do a lot of digging around, and you know, in
an American life, I probably wouldn't have been able to
find a fact like that out anyway from the library.
So it's much much easier now to check individual facts.
What is harder, or what I hadn't factored into all
of this, was that so many things have just been revolutionized.
(35:25):
Just to give you just one small example, the number
of moons in our solar system that we know about
has doubled in twenty years, which just astounded me. I thought,
we mustn't we must have been familiar with all the
moons there are out there, But in fact, we keep
finding more and more moons all the time, partly because
some of them are quite small.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Oh, there's so many questions. Which sections of the book
required the most updating. Is it possible to.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
Say, Yeah, the one that surprised me and I hadn't
really expected was human origins, the whole story of you know,
how we got from being sort of essentially apes to
be modern humans. Because there's lots and lots of species
(36:12):
of new ancient humans or archaic humans that have been
discovered in the last twenty years. One of the most
amazing of these ones, I'm sure you've read about, commonly
known as the Hobbits with homofluoresciences, who were discovered on
this on the island of Floris in Indonesia. And they
(36:33):
were little people with very small brains that somehow got
all the way from Africa to Indonesia, crossed big bodies
of water in order to do so at a time
when there was nobody had mastery of ocean going craft
or anything. Somehow got to Floris and then just stayed there,
and they were there for the better part of a
(36:55):
million years. Nobody knows how they did it or even
why they did it. And they were on the Florists
is an island that's crawling with komodo and dragons. So
why they decided to and you know, one of the
most dangerous places on Earth and thrive for almost a
million years is a question that cannot be answered. And
they're just one of several species of ancient humans that
(37:17):
we knew nothing at all about when I wrote the
book the first time.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Amazing. Have there been questions that people have been asking
you since you released the first book that you thought,
I'm going to go back and try and sort this out?
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Oh? Yeah, there was, yes. I mean I got loads
of letters from people from all over the place, but
pointing out mistakes I'd made, or things that I had
got wrong, or that they felt I had got wrong,
or that were incomplete. I mean, one of the one
of the ones that was was kind of embarrassing to
me was but I got it. I got a very
sweet letter from a young student, a girl in India.
(37:55):
This was only a year or so ago, and I
pointed out that whereas I said that the word asteroid
came from a Latin word for star, she pointed out
that actually it was from a Greek word for star,
and that had been in the book for twenty years
with nobody had ever mentioned it, nobody'd ever noticed it,
and nobody'd ever drawn that to my attention. So that
was the kind of one of one of the kinds
(38:17):
of things that I was able to correct as I
went along.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
But don't you love that engagement bill. You know, people
people are reading and interested and curious and king to
have a conversation about it. I think that's fantastic.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
Yeah, And they're so helpful, and most people are very
very they're very understanding, you know. I mean, I'm not
saying that the book is riddled with mistakes. You know,
I tried very hard to make it as accurate as
I could. But I'm not a scientist, and so you know,
what I'm doing in the book is trying to explain
to people this is what I understand, this is what
(38:51):
I've learned, this is this is how I understand it.
And of course, you know, there will be things that
I don't grasp adequately or fully, or say this is
I haven't misunderstood, or just you know, just human error
creeps in from time to time. And what I have
found was that most people are very, very very patient
about that, and they are very helpful and want to
(39:13):
help you get it correct. If I, you know, don't
quite understand quantum physics, it's hardly a surprised and I
often get letters from people that are, you know, trying
to put me back on the right track on certain things.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Well, I think we all hugely appreciate the fact that
you have made science more accessible and interesting. I mean,
it's important, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (39:34):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (39:34):
Yes, science is massively important. You know, science tells us
who we are and how we got here and where
we're going. I mean, every single thing that is vital
to you in your life or any life is science
is you know, will sort out that problem if you have,
whether it's health or you know, whatever whatever it is
(39:56):
to do that affects your life, science is at the
root of it. And and so of course, and my
whole point was that you know, the two kinds of
people in the world that are people who become science
for whom science is is you know, something that they're
completely drawn to. And then there's the rest of us
who are never going to be scientists, and I think
very often are left out. We miss out on appreciating
(40:20):
the wonder of the majesty of science. And my book
is really for those people like me who were never
going to be scientists, but but really ought to understand
some of the things that science does for us.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
What else did you learn from the update and information
in terms of how faur science has come in these
sort of twenty two twenty three years between books.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Well, there were lots of other things that you know,
that I just had. I mean, in almost every page
had some kind of changes on it. Sometimes they were
just fairly small things, just you know, just updating a
number or a date or something. But then there were
other things that kind of revolutionize fields. I mean, one
of them I won't go into any detail heres, but
(41:04):
the Higgs boson. You know, every everybody will have heard
about what the discovery of that, and also things like
the ongoing question of the mystery of what exactly is
dark matter, which is you know, and dark energy, which
make up the overwhelming majority of all everything that's in
the universe, and we still don't know what they are.
(41:24):
There's lots and lots of different theories. And I spent
quite a lot of time with a wonderful cosmologist named
Carlos Frank from Durham University in England, and he's spent
forty years looking into this and he still doesn't know
what dark matter is. I mean, he has all kinds
of theories and he's one of the smartest people in
(41:46):
the world, and one of you know, hundreds of scientists
who've looked into this, and we still don't know the
answer to what exactly dark matter is. So that's the
kind of stuff that I was dealing with. In the
updated version of the book.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
You mentioned before that you had retired and then and
took on this wonderful challenge. And I did have a
little life because I had read before that you sort
of were in retirement, and I'm thinking, I'm not so
sure that this is quite you know, retirement. What does
retirement look like to you?
Speaker 4 (42:16):
Bill Well? I I had this idea. I mean, I
tried for a few years to be semi retired, and
then it just goes You can't do that. It just
doesn't work. You're either retired or you're not. And I decided,
I announced that in twenty twenty, I was going to retire,
flat out retirement, not do anything anymore, No more books,
no more work of any kind, no literary festivals or anything.
(42:39):
And COVID came along and so we all became retired.
It was actually quite easy. And for a few years,
so I mean three or four years, I really didn't
do anything in terms of work. I mean, I still
have a very active life. I've got a big garden
and a big family, and I have lots of other
things I did, and I love being retired. It was
(43:02):
such a joy to be able to read for pleasure
for the first time in years and years, for instance.
But I also kind of missed working and and having,
you know, having kind of a purpose or having having
challenges to deal with in life, and so I thought,
(43:22):
I really must go back into this book and try
and bring it up to date. I'm glad I did it,
but now I feel as if I'm ready to be
retired again.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
And you can be. Isn't it great? You can?
Speaker 4 (43:34):
You can. It's a job, and it's it's like any
job job is. You know, it's work, and it's nice
not to have to work. I mean, this is why
we all enjoy having holidays and time off and you know,
weekends and things and being retired. I find it very,
very agreeable. But at the same time, I think, as
(43:55):
with most retired people, you missed, you missed the sort
of contact with others, You miss certain aspects of the work,
and I do miss I really missed doing the research,
you know, interviewing people, going to libraries, doing reading and
things like that. But I don't other parts of being
a writer. I don't miss I don't miss all the
(44:16):
emails and the meetings and having to deal with, you know,
being invited to loads to do loads of things, and
having to you know, the kind of administrative sides of things.
I'm very happy to be free from that.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
So not only is the book being re released and
it's just been released here in New Zealand, but of
course you have the tour as well. Just to keep
you really busy. Tell me about the tour. What does
a Bill bryceon live show look like?
Speaker 4 (44:43):
Oh? Well, we're still were still putting it all together.
But part of the reason I wanted to do it
and agreed to do it is because it's organized by
this wonderful gume from Sydney, Simon Baggs, who's an old friend.
I've done tours with him before. And what he does
is he he's very, very thoughtful, but he brings a
lot of kind of I don't know, laser lights and
(45:06):
hyrotechnics and dazzling things, and what it means is that
things that you know, I mean, my specialty is just
to put words on a page, but he brings things
to life by projecting images on the screen. So if
I'm talking about the Big Bang or the birth of
the universe or something on stage. You know, there'll be
(45:27):
something going on on a big screen behind me that
will show you that, And so it makes everything much
more vivid and more like a show. And to me
it's I'm as dazzled as people in the audience are
because because he just puts together these, you know, the
kind of fantastic shows. And at this particular moment, we're
(45:49):
still working on exactly what that will consist of. But
what I can tell you I can absolutely sure it
is that is that you know, you'll be sort of
staggered by how good it is, not because of me,
not because I make it so good, but because of
the stuff Simon brings to it all, and and it
just makes it a real joy and much more kind
(46:12):
of interactive experience with the audience. So it'll be really
talking partly about my life and times and work, but
also talking about the science and the universe and how
how we came to be the way we are.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Bill, are you definitely finished with the book now? I mean,
is there a big discovery that would make you revisit
it again?
Speaker 4 (46:33):
Well, that's I mean, the problem is of course, as
soon as you finish a book and it goes, the
world goes on. Yes, things were discovered, and you know,
somebody will will will come up with an answer to
what is the you know, what is the cause of
dark energy and dark matter and all of these other things.
(46:53):
Will continually learn more. But in a way, my book
isn't about it isn't about trying to be right up
to the minute. It's not. It's not a guide to
science so much. It's it's more sort of an appreciation
of the universe we live in and what science does
for us. So I'm hoping, you know, I've brought a
(47:14):
lot of the facts up to date, but I'm hoping
that as it as time goes on, it will become
slightly more dated. But I'm hoping that it is still
the general kind of thrust of the book will still
be okay, that people will still find it valuable. People
were still buying it before I did this updated version
and finding it useful because just an awful of history
(47:34):
in it and just sort of general generalizing. But you know,
the great thing at the moment is that it's just
about it's up to date. Could possibly make it.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Your best Guess from the Sunday session Great Jazz with
Francisca Rudgin on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks It'd Be.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
That was a lovely Bill Bryson A Short History of
Nearly Everything two point zero is out now and both
Bill Bryson andom Ottolinky, who I spoke to earlier, are
touring New Zealand and February next year. Thanks for joy
ting me on this News Talks He'd Be podcast. Please
feel free to share these chats, and if you liked
this podcast, make sure you follow us on iHeartRadio or
where if you get your podcasts. Don't forget we release
(48:16):
a new episode of Great Chats on the last Thursday
of every month.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks It'd Be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks EDB. The big names, the fascinating guests,
the thoughtful conversations, bringing you the best interviews from the
Sunday Session. This is Great Chats with Francesca Rudkin, powered
(00:27):
by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hello and welcome to Great Chats. I'm Francisco Rudkin, host
of the Sunday Session on News Talks EDB, and in
this podcast, we pick some of our favorite feature interviews
from over the last month for you to enjoy. Shortly,
I chat to Neil Iramer, founder and director artistic director
of Black Gray Starts Company. This year, they've been celebrating
their thirtieth anniversary, which is pretty remarkable. Bill Bryson also
(00:51):
joins us to talk about why he decided to come
out of retirement to update his best selling science book,
Short History of Nearly Everything. But first up, we're talking
cooking with world famous chef and author Yotam Ottalini. So
Yotam is heading to New Zealand next year in two
thousand Pretty Sicks with his life tour and evening with
Otto Liny. So I began by asking him, as someone
(01:12):
who loves food, how do you handle these whirlwind tours.
He's doing twenty one events in under a month.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I ask myself this question every day. I enjoy the
tours very much, but they're hectic, they're intense, and I
have so, you know, I visit effectively. I'm doing a
city a day. Really, really, that's what I do. So
the timing is not great because it means I arrive somewhere,
you know, just after lunch, and then I go into
(01:43):
a room with a lot of great people, and then
I get out and I don't want to have dinner,
so I snack. I have breakfast if I can, and
if I want to taste it, you know, the taste
of the flavor of a city. I ask people where's
the best place to go for breakfast, and then I
try to get my breakfast before I fly over to
the next place. So it's it's about juggling. But I
(02:04):
do make sure that I have a good meal, at
least one in every city that.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
I go to.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I did wonder Yachtam whether this is why in your
tour you include a live cooking demonstration on stage so
that you actually have some dinner.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
The last thing I want to eat is on tour
is my own food, I have to say. But but yes,
I mean, I tour on statu and I am. I'm
quite flexible with the way I eat. So I'm just
happy to eat whether there's around it, whether whatever I
have around And yeah, I mean, cooking on stage really
(02:41):
is just about sharing some prints, some basic great techniques
that I've kind of develop over time to show people
how to expand their their how they cook and what
they cook, but without all the half much effort and hassle.
(03:03):
So I've noticed over the years that's some people, but
not everybody, find cooking a little bit taxing, like they're intimidating.
Some people think that love cooking, but they don't know
how to expand their repertoire. So what I do when
I cook on stage and I don't cook a lot,
and I cook a couple of things is try to
(03:25):
demonstrate that actually there is It's not so easy. The
entry point to cooking can be quite low, and you
still get something very delicious at the end of it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I think we all go through periods, don't we of
experiencing all those things or just sort of suddenly losing inspiration.
Feeling like you've been cooking the same thing over and over.
It's nice to heaven input of some fresh ideas, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Yes? And you know it also happens to me. You know,
you spend a whole day at work doing one thing
or another and then you come home and you open
the fridge and you're just not feeling inspired. And it's yeah,
it happens to everyone. And there is I think what
(04:07):
there is some you could use. You can give yourself
a break effectively, That's what I want to say. You
can cook with things that you can reheat something you
had the night before and then juge it up with
something else you could There's all sorts of little shortcuts
of a flavor that I use a lot.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
Like.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
For me, one of the best things that I can
do when I get home and if I don't need
to feed the crowd, is to put on a part
of rice and I and that takes a very little
time if I don't soak the rice for too long.
And whilst I do that, I am I grate some cheese.
(04:45):
Maybe I find a nice chili oil or chili crisp
that I have in my friend and put that all together,
maybe some fried onion that I've had again, like all
like shop bought, And as soon as the rice is ready,
I grate some cheese into it, that put some black pepper,
put the chili sauce on top. And it's a kind
of a quick fix, a quick meal, but it's just
(05:06):
something that you do almost automatically and you don't need
to think too much. It's not special, but it's just
so delicious.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Do we overthink cooking in foods? Sometimes?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
My feeling is that we have had we're kind of
overcompensating for something that has happened over I don't know,
the last winter or thirty years. So if you look back,
I mean, again, I don't want to be too nostalgic
about it, but I think when I was growing up,
cooking was so much part of of what the day
to day looked like. You know, it was just ingrained
(05:39):
in my parents' life. And then we went through the
seventies and the eighties, and I show my age and
then it was all about like fixes, quick fixes. You know,
you could get something ready from the freezer, you can
get something this. We got a little bit addicted to takeaways,
et cetera, and we lost the instinct for cooking. And
(06:04):
what happened is that then and all sorts of things
happen in the world, and especially with COVID, people just
found themselves being disconnected food from food and thought like, oh,
I've got to relearn that skill. I've got to be
a good cook again. And and it's okay. I mean,
I think it's a really good instinct. I think it's
the right thing to do. But I think we do
(06:25):
overthink it sometimes because there are a lot of solutions,
solutions out there. There's things you can buy too, So
not every time you go into the kitchen you need
to start from scratch. You can. You can start one
thing from scratch and then the other thing you can
buy great quality things. That sits there in the shelf
of the supermarket is a sauce, you know, like a pesto,
(06:45):
and then you're augmented with other things or or a
quick piece of fish, and then the rest of it
is ready cooked rise that is also there. So I
think we should be a little bit more flexible and
not and like you say, not overthinking it's you.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Know, I know that as you're talking, you know, you're
talking here about sort of making cooking more relaxed and
less stressful. I know that that's important to you and
sort of a focus of the show. So how do
we kind of remove those barriers maybe to cooking when
it does be a little bit hard.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
This is what Yeah, this is what I'm I'm going
to do during my show. First of all, show tell
people that they shouldn't be so hard on themselves, that
should they should give themselves a break sometimes. And you know,
and it's okay to, like I said now, to half
cook a meal and the other half, to to use
things that are already there, to use things that from cans,
from tins, from jars. You know, there's such a great
(07:39):
variety of options around. And then there is a couple
of basic skills that are really really great, and I
kind of go over them. I don't know what. I
don't want to give away the whole show, but I'll
give a couple of little examples. I mean, if you
can get yourself to make a great roast chicken or
roasted selaria, or if you can make a really delicious
(08:03):
vinegrette or two. Those are some basic skills that you
have there. And then the rest is stuff that you
pick here. And there. So, for example, when you think
of a vinigred, you think a salad or maybe crudeed taste,
but actually a really good vinegret and there's like there's citrus,
bass or vinegar, vinegar bases. Some would have a bit
of nuts, some have charlottes, some have garlic. I mean,
(08:25):
they are they vary. But if you have one that
you really love and you're very good at doing, then
that's like half your job done. Because then you take
a tray of vegetables, whether it's root vegetables or rassicas
you know, cabbages, et cetera, you put it in the
oven with a bit of old roasted As soon as
it comes out, you drizzle with a vinegred and you
(08:46):
have something so delicious and so quick and easy. So
those basic things that you have at your hand are
a way to kind of mitigate that stress that some
people feel or feeling a bit jaded.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
You describe before that feeling of coming home and opening
the fridge and looking at what's inside and trying to
think what you're going to whip up. There are now
AI apps that you can use whereby you put a
group of ingredients in and they give you a recipe,
would you ever use one of those apps?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
I would, yeah, definitely. I mean I don't know if
the recipe is going to be great because I haven't
tried it, but as in it for ideas, yeah, why not.
I mean I have I'm in a very fortunate position
where I've got, you know this, like behind me, I've
got like a normal I haven't counted. I think like
(09:37):
well over two thousand recipes that I've published over the years,
and I think they cover most combinations of recipes. So
sometimes I have a confession. Sometimes I go online on
Google and I go like autolenggy, you know, lamb shoulder,
and I a couple of other recipes ingredients, and I
(09:59):
google it, and then all of a sudden, a lot
of ideas come so, oh yes, I remember that dish.
So I do I myself use the you know, use
use use a computer to come up with ideas or
to really re imagine like what I did before. And
it's actually very useful. But I think none of that
is takes away the joy of actually learning how to
(10:22):
cook properly. And I think again that's another thing that
I really want to emphasize to people, the skill of
cooking is something that you can't really learn or have
just by kind of googling recipes or looking at an
AI bot that tells you, you know, put all these
(10:43):
things together. It's just these are kind of basic things,
instinctive things that you feel with your hands as you cook.
And I think it's a wonderful thing to learn and
to know how to do. And again, you don't need
to be a master chef, but you can be a
really kind of a good cook really just by knowing
a few basic things that take you a long way.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
How has the way you cook changed or evolved over
the years.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
So I've been through stages.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
When I started cooking, I wanted to throw everything at
every dish that I used to cook. And I look
at old recipes that I've published, and I said to him, say, oh,
what were you thinking? Was it really necessary to have
so many things? And you know, people do make fun
of and still do make fun of me if you're saying,
like autolnthy recipes, you know, it's never less than sixteen
(11:35):
ingreedy ingredients and they had to be obscure. And I
kind of take the shame a little bit and think like, Okay, well,
I did. There are some old recipes or not that
old recipes that feel a little bit over the top,
but I've never done that just in order to challenge
people's I've always felt that there is added value, excuse me,
(11:56):
by putting all these things together in a bowl or
in a pot. These days, I think a little bit
more on what can be taken way, and I spend
quite a lot of time to think what is essential,
you know, what is essential in this dish? Because I
think about myself, how long am I going to spend
in the kitchen? Is it going to be worth my while?
(12:17):
And what is the real DNA of a dish? And
what is just unnecessary? Also because I've had I have kids,
there are like in nearly teenagers now, but they were
young that long ago, and I realized that I need
to think a lot about like the practicality of cooking
for a family. And I think that's another thing that
I haven't spent much time thinking at the beginning of
(12:40):
my career. So I'm much more forgiving and practical these days.
But I still love to create a feast, you know,
to make something from scraps that has a lot of
layers of flavor, but I just don't do it every
single day.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Do you take a lot of pride in how the
Ottling way of cooking has changed how people cook and
eat around the world because you have been hugely influential
in that respect.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
I take a lot of pride in that. Yeah, that's
the one thing that I've for I never undermine, you know.
I always think people say to me, what is your
greatest achievement, And I think, oh, I just don't think
in those terms. But then, but then when I do
think deeply about it, My greatest achievement for me is
(13:24):
when someone comes to me and says, oh, you know,
I've cooked your green beans with hazel nuts and orange
from their first cookbook. I've been cooking it for like
the last decade or two, and my family cooks it.
It's become part of our repertoire. And for me, this
is something huge because it's not you know, recipes come
and go, and books come and go, and even in
(13:46):
news articles, but something that stays in people's minds, like
a way of cooking, is a dish, a particular dish
that stays with them, or an idea is really it
goes really deep and they might pass it on to
the next generation. And that really is like the biggest
gift that people can give me, just telling me that
(14:07):
it's part of their lives, of how they cook, of
how they get together around the table.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I have been making your cheesecake. One of your cheesecakes
probably for about I don't know, twenty twenty five years.
It was one that had it had this incredible topping.
It was like a toffee caramelized topping.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
And then.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, and it was quite extravagant, and it was
the first time that I went, oh, hang on, I
can be ambitious. I can make something quite extraordinary. But
that cheesecake itself, the baked cheesecake has been used as
I've done a million things with it, you know, put
a million different toppings on it, and I'm still making it.
I still just trust that one. It works every time.
(14:49):
So and it's passed on and my daughter now does it.
So there we go. There's an example of that very much.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, I totally. First of all, I'm so glad that
you're telling me this. But then again, I think what
you just said is so important because you've cooked that recipe,
and I take a lot of pride in you know
and producing recipes that work and I'm thoroughly tested, et cetera.
But then you often you make it your own. And
(15:16):
that's the message that I'm trying to pass on to
people and say, like, yes, there's all these great recipes
out there, you know, and you can go on an
AI search engine, or you can search on Google or
wherever you get your recipes, but actually there's all the
things that you could do yourself. So once you've acquired
that skill and making a cheesecake or a baked rice
(15:38):
or whatever it is that you're making, then you can
just be very playful. And that's a basic joy, the
joy of cooking, not the joy of following a recipe,
which is another great joy, which I often do, but
the joy of knowing what you're doing, getting in the
kitchen and working on autopilot, not thinking, relaxing, listening to music,
and cooking something that you're super proud of.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
How do you feel about food and eating trenes? Do
you pay attention to them at all?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
To trends?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, yes, food trends and you know we're eating this
these days or this is the produce you need to eat.
Do you pay much attention to that or do you
just stick with seasonal produce and what you like and
quite traditional.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
That I have to pay attention to everything that's happening
because it's part of my professional obligation, you know, to
know what's going on, to go out to try things.
But I don't like food trends only because I feel
that there's something a bit compulsive about those ideas. I
(16:43):
think they come and go. I think their function is
for journalists and not for people. You know, they are
there to tell a story. But in a way, the
trends come and go, but certain things never go, and
I think it's more important to focus on what is timeless.
And then again, you know, I'm not completely ignoring the
(17:09):
fact that people do think in such a way that
people get inspired from social media, you know, Instagram and TikTok,
and that does become a trend, and that's also totally legit,
but I just question the longevity of that, like how
long that would last? I think certain things. So one
of the things that I say in the show is
that like tried to think a little bit about what
(17:32):
you know and how you grew up eating and try
to connect to that rather than what you see on
a screen because that would is more likely to sustain
you over time. You know, it's more likely to to
any even if you didn't grow up in a foody house.
I mean, think of things that you've been exposed to
and are meaningful to you, rather than trying to conquer
(17:54):
the net cuisine or the next ingredient, because in some
ways it's it's okay, but it's quite it's it's transient
often and it doesn't really stick full for the long term.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yochtam thank you so much for your time today. So
appreciate it and very excited that you're heading back to
New Zealand in the new year. We look forward to
seeing you then.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Oh, I can't wait to be back in New Zealand
and eat all the delicious food and try your seafood
that I miss so much. So yeah, thank you for
the interview and I can't wait to be back.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
The biggest names from the Sunday session great chats with
Brancheska Rudkin on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It'd be that was Yochtam ottterlingy delightful a. I love
the bit in the interview where he said he had
to google his own recipes at times to remember them.
I mean, it is understandable if you have written eleven cookbooks.
Right up next, Black Grace founder and artistic director Neil
Eramia joins me. So thirty years ago he created this
now iconic New Zealand dance company that's changed dance in
(18:57):
this country. And to mark the anniversary, Black Grace has
toured a double bill, the world premiere of Neil's own
if ever, there was a time alongside Esplanade, which is
from legendary choreographer Paul Taylor. But to begin the conversation,
I asked Neil if he could go back thirty years
and tell us what it was like to start Black
Grace in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
There's a long time ago. For sure, it was quite unusual.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
I mean, obviously the dance wasn't a big thing, particularly
for males in this country back then, and.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
In particular for mild and Pacific men.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
It wasn't something we kind of did back then, and
there weren't a lot of us around.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Really.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
There were some great luminary some earlier dances, but you know,
it wasn't the kind of thing that you did. So
deciding to start a dance company. Everyone thought, I was
absolutely mad.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
What did exist back then? There must have been the
Douglas Wright Dance Company. Maybe was Limbs around.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
And yeah ctainly.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Yeah, So contemporary dance and alter at all New Zealand
is still very very young compared to Dance Overseas and
Limbs Dance Company. He had been going for a while
but had just closed I think around nineteen eighty nine,
nineteen eighty eight eighty nine, and then the Douglas Wright
Dance Company started.
Speaker 6 (20:15):
And Douglas had.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Worked for Paul Taylor in New York whose work were.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
Presenting at the end of the year.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
So it's kind of a nice little a piece through,
a legacy piece through and I worked for Douglas for
a large part of my freelancing career, but that was
sort of it.
Speaker 6 (20:34):
There was Michael.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Palment and Seanan mccullu was also around with her company.
Mary Jane O'Reilly had just choreographed the Commonwealth Games opening
to you know, huge critical acclaim, but still there weren't
a lot of men around, and so I remember when we.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
Put on our first show and it actually sold out.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
It was at the Kenneth Maidmon Theater and at the
University there, and we put on our first show and
it sold out before we actually opened, which was quite
InCred But afterwards, while I was talking to some people,
and a couple of the women there thought they were
coming to see a bunch of strippers.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Not quite, not quite.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
I mean, you know, there were sort of ten these
ten guys who kind of looked kind of sort of
athletic and things, and I suppose they thought they were
coming to see that.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Oh a great story. So setting it up? Was it
a matter of finding a place for Pacific and Mari
dancers or men or what.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
We look I you know, I have great respect and
a great love for the art form and for the
you know, the choreographers and practitioners here. But when I started,
I couldn't see anyone telling stories about people like me
from the neighborhoods I grew up in, Like I grew
(22:02):
up in Kennis Creek and Porty Door, and I wasn't
really seeing that portrayed in the arts generally, and I
didn't see a lot of people that looked like me involved,
especially in dance. So I just wanted to tell some stories. Really,
you know, I like a good sort of gas bag
and I like to sort of have a gin wag
(22:22):
with a few people, but I wanted to do it
in a really physical way, in an artistic way, and
I just thought I would. So Black Grace is kind
of that. It's the vehicle that helped us tell a
few stories.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
You were young when you set it up twenty four?
Did you know? And I mean it's the nicest possible way,
but did you know what you were doing? Did you
know what you were in for?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
No?
Speaker 6 (22:49):
And sut No. I was a real dreamer, I think,
you know.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
I remember at dance school I made a list of
things that I wanted to achieve. By the time I
turned thirty and I was at dance school, I'd left
my home in Kennison and Potidor to come to Auckland
to start Black Grace, well, to go to dance school actually,
and then part way through dance school, I thought I'd
better I'd better.
Speaker 6 (23:15):
Get onto it.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
You see, I'd been working in a bank for about
two years, learning how to massage my cuticles and taiwinds,
a knots and things like that. So my parents were
heartbroken when I told them I was leaving that job
to pursue a career in dance, so I had no
idea what I was doing. But you know, I knew
that I wanted to set something up that would become
(23:38):
a legacy company. And I made that list a dance school,
and I put on it by the time I turned thirty.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
I want to own my own dance company. I want
to own.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
A PMW and I want to and I want my
home and I want to own a home.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
And I got there. So the BMW was trash, but
everything else was great.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I think I'm right in saying that you're actually visiting
your parents this weekend. And you know, I know that
you just said they were disappointed when you left the bank,
but I think your mum wanted you to be a preacher.
They must be pretty impressed with the career that you've
made for yourself though in dancing.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Look, we're a kind of family that don't really kind
of pat each other on the backs too much, so
I'm sure they're proud. But you know, I think my
mum's still disappointed that I'm I didn't become a man of.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
The cloth, so to speak. But look, you know I
remember telling her I was going to dance school.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
Was she just cried, you know, and Dad he just
did the classical tut tut tut, you know it and
kind of didn't talk to me for I don't know months, But.
Speaker 6 (24:55):
But yeah, they've been there all the way through.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
And one important thing when I did start Black Grace
in nineteen ninety five and then I opened a studio
and I needed to apply for a business from the
Pacific Business Trusts because I wanted to open the studio
because I figured that, you know, people needed to see
a physical thing to believe that.
Speaker 6 (25:18):
That it was real.
Speaker 5 (25:20):
And we didn't have any We didn't have a home either.
It was a crazy thing to do and it was
right in Federal Street, just behind Saint Matt's Church where
I think Auckland Yoga is now. But I took that
on and I applied for a loan and they needed,
you know, some collateral for that loan and I had nothing,
so I asked my parents if they'd put their house
up for me, and they did.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
So there.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I think that says it all, really, doesn't it. And look,
I think they will very much recognize and be very
proud of what you've achieved for the arts and New
Zealand dance and men and dance and Pacifica and dance
I have. How have you made it work? Because the
arts isn't an easy place and surviving for thirty years
is pretty impressive.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
Look, I have to give credit to my mum here.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
She's always been the great kind of finance minister of
our family, and she's managed to make a small amount
of money go a long way, particularly when we're growing up.
And I guess some of that's rubbed off on me.
And I'm very, very practical about things. So I have
this kind of crazy this thing from both of my parents.
(26:31):
So on my dad's side, he's very artistic and very creative,
and my mum's very practical and.
Speaker 6 (26:38):
And so I have both of those things.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
And for an artist, I guess that's real, because you're
always arguing with yourself, you know, particularly you know, I'm.
Speaker 6 (26:47):
The artistic director and chief executive Black Grace, and those
are those are real jobs.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
That's not just some sort of fancy title that I
think people think it's nice to have.
Speaker 6 (26:57):
I have. You know, I still write all the budgets
for Black Grace.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
I used to do all of the reporting for a
very very long time, and it's only recently that I've
met to sort of pass those on to other people.
But at the same time I have to be creative
and get in the studio. So finding that balance has
been a long journey, but it's been a worthwhile one
and because of that, I think we've been able to
steer the company in the right direction with the help
(27:21):
of a wonderful, you know board. Over the years, We've
had some amazing people on it, the likes of Hayden
Wong from Bell Gully, Julian Knight Beneath many you know.
So we've had some great some great governance over the
years and that's helped me out a lot and taught
me a huge amount.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
But basically, we just go overseas.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
Make more money over there in sort of six weeks
than we do here in an entire year, and then
we come home and lose it all.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Well, but I was going to say, a lot of
people probably don't realize, you know, you're so well established
here in New Zealand, but very well established in the
global market as well.
Speaker 6 (28:01):
Yeah, and that's really necessary.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
I mean, we you know, we just we have to
export and basically that's how we stay alive. We have
a great sustaining partner in Creative New Zealand and others.
But it's our work that we do over in particularly
North America. We used to do it to.
Speaker 6 (28:18):
Europe every other year when we weren't in the States.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
But now the world's starting to open up again, and
you know, this year already we've been to Japan. We're
about to head off to Canada after the closing night
in christ Church, and then early next year we're back
up to Hawaii and then.
Speaker 6 (28:35):
Off to Italy.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
So that enables us to run programs here and to
keep prices relatively affordable for the company's you know, reputation
and tenure. But yeah, we've got good people around, you know,
that's all.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
Like I said, it's not just me.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
It's a whole bunch of really fantastic, clever folk that
pitching and and help make it and believe in this idea.
You know, we're in the we're in the business of
building ladders, we like to say, and you know, so
that people we can leave a whole bunch of leaders
behind so people can get up to.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
But yeah, I'm taking a lot from this today. I'm
gonna I'm gonna be calling myself a Finance Minister at
home from now on. I love this idea of ladders.
I think this is this is one for the dreamers.
This interview really quickly. What is the standard of dance
like in New Zealand at the moment do you think.
Speaker 5 (29:35):
Look, you know, to be fair, we've had our challenges,
I think with training just generally right across the board
in every industry.
Speaker 6 (29:44):
I think if anyone you talk to.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Would say that that, you know, it's probably not as
as good as it should be, and for various reasons.
I always I kind of think, you know, it's got
to do with, uh, the idea of having to pay
for your education, your tertiary education.
Speaker 6 (30:04):
When I was at you know, I used to yes
past university.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Entrance to get into university and then it was kind
of a based on merits. But these days I think
it's you've got enough money to pay for your fees
or whatever and you can sort of get there.
Speaker 6 (30:17):
But look, it's challenging, and that's what i'd say.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
But you know, there's always hope, and I'm always hopeful
that we can we can turn that around.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
And I'm sure we will.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Tell me a little bit about this upcoming double bill
performance and what people can expect.
Speaker 6 (30:32):
Oh, well, it's going to be incredible.
Speaker 5 (30:34):
Paul Taylor used to dance with Martha Graham, the late
Paul Taylor. It's a New York based company seventy one
years old, and the work that we've licensed from them
is one of the most iconic pieces of modern dance globally.
Speaker 6 (30:49):
It's called Esplanade, and it was one of my.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Favorite works just watching as a young choreographer or spying choreographer.
And Douglas, right I mentioned earlier worked for Paul Taylor
when he was in New York before going on to
start his own company, and then of course I worked
for Port for Douglas, And so we're putting with licensed Esplanade,
(31:13):
and that's one of those crazy old modern dance pieces
with the leotards and the kind of the genes and things.
But I think, you know, dance dance lovers will absolutely
love it. And I just think it's wonderful to bring
that type of work here because it hasn't been seen here, well,
it hasn't been performed by a New Zealand company at all,
and he brought his own company here in nineteen ninety nine,
(31:34):
I believe, and that was the last time, so you know,
it'll be a great piece of work to see. And
then I've made my little kind of piece which I
started off trying to be kind of happy and wanting
to make something beautiful, and I kind of just ended
up making a whole bunch of short stories. I mean,
I don't you never know, right, You've just got to
(31:55):
posit it out there and see how to see what happens.
Speaker 6 (31:57):
But I'm I'm really happy with it.
Speaker 5 (32:00):
It's beautifully musical, and it's here I am talking about
my own work like it's great.
Speaker 6 (32:06):
It's how terrible On the Sunday.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Night, Well, if you don't, If you don't, I.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Will be bringing you the best interviews from the Sunday session.
Great chats with Francesca Rudkin on iHeartRadio Empowered by News
Talks at b That was Neil E.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Rema, founder of dance group Black Grace. I went to
that show. Oh my goodness, it was amazing. If you
got to it too, I'm sure that you were blown
away by it. I really enjoyed talking to people in
the arts of New Zealand because they're not only hugely talented,
but also do they have to be very resourceful and
resilient and ambitious. It's pretty impressive. These guys have been
around for thirty years. To finish up, a chat with
(32:44):
Bill Bryson. Now, Bill is the author of the best
selling popular science book of the twenty first century of
Short History of Nearly Everything. It was originally released in
two thousand and three and sold over two million copies.
But it's changed a lot since then. Well, science has
changed a lot, right, The world's changed a lot, we
know a lot more So Bill decided to update the book,
and I started by asking him just how big and
(33:06):
undert hiking.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
This was more than I expected. I mean, I knew
it would be a big job. The book is, you know,
was written more than twenty years ago, as you've just said,
and it's all about science and me trying to understand
everything in the world of science to the whole history
of the universe. So obviously a massive amount has changed
in those twenty years, and I knew that it would
(33:30):
be quite a big job, but it actually turned out
to be even bigger than I expected. It was. It
was fun. I enjoyed it a lot. You know. I've
been kind of retired for a few years and this,
So I came out of retirement to do this, and
I really had a good time doing it. It made
me remember, you know, the joys of actually working to
be the writer. But it involved a lot more you know,
(33:55):
traveling around and interviewing people and trying to bring myself
up to speed than I had that I had quite
bargained for. But on the whole, I'm really glad I
did it, and I really enjoyed doing it.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Was there any difference in the researching and writing of
this book in twenty twenty five compete to twenty twenty three,
because we've had a few sort of technological advances in
that time, haven't we.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Yes, I mean completely different. I mean when I did
the book, the book came out in two thousand and three,
but I really started doing the research on it, and
you know, around about nineteen ninety eight, ninety nine, and
it was just at the time when the internet was
coming in and you know, and you couldn't I mean,
there was no kind of like it was just so
much harder to fact check back then. If I wanted
(34:41):
to check any kind of fact, I had to get
you know, put on clothes and get in my car
and drive it to the library and try and find
things there. Now, of course, you can fact check anything.
I mean, you know I could if I needed to
know that I don't know, just into Arden's middle name,
I could do it in an instant. But back then
I would have had to go off and you know,
(35:03):
do a lot of digging around, and you know, in
an American life, I probably wouldn't have been able to
find a fact like that out anyway from the library.
So it's much much easier now to check individual facts.
What is harder, or what I hadn't factored into all
of this, was that so many things have just been revolutionized.
(35:25):
Just to give you just one small example, the number
of moons in our solar system that we know about
has doubled in twenty years, which just astounded me. I thought,
we mustn't we must have been familiar with all the
moons there are out there, But in fact, we keep
finding more and more moons all the time, partly because
some of them are quite small.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Oh, there's so many questions. Which sections of the book
required the most updating. Is it possible to.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
Say, Yeah, the one that surprised me and I hadn't
really expected was human origins, the whole story of you know,
how we got from being sort of essentially apes to
be modern humans. Because there's lots and lots of species
(36:12):
of new ancient humans or archaic humans that have been
discovered in the last twenty years. One of the most
amazing of these ones, I'm sure you've read about, commonly
known as the Hobbits with homofluoresciences, who were discovered on
this on the island of Floris in Indonesia. And they
(36:33):
were little people with very small brains that somehow got
all the way from Africa to Indonesia, crossed big bodies
of water in order to do so at a time
when there was nobody had mastery of ocean going craft
or anything. Somehow got to Floris and then just stayed there,
and they were there for the better part of a
(36:55):
million years. Nobody knows how they did it or even
why they did it. And they were on the Florists
is an island that's crawling with komodo and dragons. So
why they decided to and you know, one of the
most dangerous places on Earth and thrive for almost a
million years is a question that cannot be answered. And
they're just one of several species of ancient humans that
(37:17):
we knew nothing at all about when I wrote the
book the first time.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Amazing. Have there been questions that people have been asking
you since you released the first book that you thought,
I'm going to go back and try and sort this out?
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Oh? Yeah, there was, yes. I mean I got loads
of letters from people from all over the place, but
pointing out mistakes I'd made, or things that I had
got wrong, or that they felt I had got wrong,
or that were incomplete. I mean, one of the one
of the ones that was was kind of embarrassing to
me was but I got it. I got a very
sweet letter from a young student, a girl in India.
(37:55):
This was only a year or so ago, and I
pointed out that whereas I said that the word asteroid
came from a Latin word for star, she pointed out
that actually it was from a Greek word for star,
and that had been in the book for twenty years
with nobody had ever mentioned it, nobody'd ever noticed it,
and nobody'd ever drawn that to my attention. So that
was the kind of one of one of the kinds
(38:17):
of things that I was able to correct as I
went along.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
But don't you love that engagement bill. You know, people
people are reading and interested and curious and king to
have a conversation about it. I think that's fantastic.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
Yeah, And they're so helpful, and most people are very
very they're very understanding, you know. I mean, I'm not
saying that the book is riddled with mistakes. You know,
I tried very hard to make it as accurate as
I could. But I'm not a scientist, and so you know,
what I'm doing in the book is trying to explain
to people this is what I understand, this is what
(38:51):
I've learned, this is this is how I understand it.
And of course, you know, there will be things that
I don't grasp adequately or fully, or say this is
I haven't misunderstood, or just you know, just human error
creeps in from time to time. And what I have
found was that most people are very, very very patient
about that, and they are very helpful and want to
(39:13):
help you get it correct. If I, you know, don't
quite understand quantum physics, it's hardly a surprised and I
often get letters from people that are, you know, trying
to put me back on the right track on certain things.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Well, I think we all hugely appreciate the fact that
you have made science more accessible and interesting. I mean,
it's important, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (39:34):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (39:34):
Yes, science is massively important. You know, science tells us
who we are and how we got here and where
we're going. I mean, every single thing that is vital
to you in your life or any life is science
is you know, will sort out that problem if you have,
whether it's health or you know, whatever whatever it is
(39:56):
to do that affects your life, science is at the
root of it. And and so of course, and my
whole point was that you know, the two kinds of
people in the world that are people who become science
for whom science is is you know, something that they're
completely drawn to. And then there's the rest of us
who are never going to be scientists, and I think
very often are left out. We miss out on appreciating
(40:20):
the wonder of the majesty of science. And my book
is really for those people like me who were never
going to be scientists, but but really ought to understand
some of the things that science does for us.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
What else did you learn from the update and information
in terms of how faur science has come in these
sort of twenty two twenty three years between books.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Well, there were lots of other things that you know,
that I just had. I mean, in almost every page
had some kind of changes on it. Sometimes they were
just fairly small things, just you know, just updating a
number or a date or something. But then there were
other things that kind of revolutionize fields. I mean, one
of them I won't go into any detail heres, but
(41:04):
the Higgs boson. You know, every everybody will have heard
about what the discovery of that, and also things like
the ongoing question of the mystery of what exactly is
dark matter, which is you know, and dark energy, which
make up the overwhelming majority of all everything that's in
the universe, and we still don't know what they are.
(41:24):
There's lots and lots of different theories. And I spent
quite a lot of time with a wonderful cosmologist named
Carlos Frank from Durham University in England, and he's spent
forty years looking into this and he still doesn't know
what dark matter is. I mean, he has all kinds
of theories and he's one of the smartest people in
(41:46):
the world, and one of you know, hundreds of scientists
who've looked into this, and we still don't know the
answer to what exactly dark matter is. So that's the
kind of stuff that I was dealing with. In the
updated version of the book.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
You mentioned before that you had retired and then and
took on this wonderful challenge. And I did have a
little life because I had read before that you sort
of were in retirement, and I'm thinking, I'm not so
sure that this is quite you know, retirement. What does
retirement look like to you?
Speaker 4 (42:16):
Bill Well? I I had this idea. I mean, I
tried for a few years to be semi retired, and
then it just goes You can't do that. It just
doesn't work. You're either retired or you're not. And I decided,
I announced that in twenty twenty, I was going to retire,
flat out retirement, not do anything anymore, No more books,
no more work of any kind, no literary festivals or anything.
(42:39):
And COVID came along and so we all became retired.
It was actually quite easy. And for a few years,
so I mean three or four years, I really didn't
do anything in terms of work. I mean, I still
have a very active life. I've got a big garden
and a big family, and I have lots of other
things I did, and I love being retired. It was
(43:02):
such a joy to be able to read for pleasure
for the first time in years and years, for instance.
But I also kind of missed working and and having,
you know, having kind of a purpose or having having
challenges to deal with in life, and so I thought,
(43:22):
I really must go back into this book and try
and bring it up to date. I'm glad I did it,
but now I feel as if I'm ready to be
retired again.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
And you can be. Isn't it great? You can?
Speaker 4 (43:34):
You can. It's a job, and it's it's like any
job job is. You know, it's work, and it's nice
not to have to work. I mean, this is why
we all enjoy having holidays and time off and you know,
weekends and things and being retired. I find it very,
very agreeable. But at the same time, I think, as
(43:55):
with most retired people, you missed, you missed the sort
of contact with others, You miss certain aspects of the work,
and I do miss I really missed doing the research,
you know, interviewing people, going to libraries, doing reading and
things like that. But I don't other parts of being
a writer. I don't miss I don't miss all the
(44:16):
emails and the meetings and having to deal with, you know,
being invited to loads to do loads of things, and
having to you know, the kind of administrative sides of things.
I'm very happy to be free from that.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
So not only is the book being re released and
it's just been released here in New Zealand, but of
course you have the tour as well. Just to keep
you really busy. Tell me about the tour. What does
a Bill bryceon live show look like?
Speaker 4 (44:43):
Oh? Well, we're still were still putting it all together.
But part of the reason I wanted to do it
and agreed to do it is because it's organized by
this wonderful gume from Sydney, Simon Baggs, who's an old friend.
I've done tours with him before. And what he does
is he he's very, very thoughtful, but he brings a
lot of kind of I don't know, laser lights and
(45:06):
hyrotechnics and dazzling things, and what it means is that
things that you know, I mean, my specialty is just
to put words on a page, but he brings things
to life by projecting images on the screen. So if
I'm talking about the Big Bang or the birth of
the universe or something on stage. You know, there'll be
(45:27):
something going on on a big screen behind me that
will show you that, And so it makes everything much
more vivid and more like a show. And to me
it's I'm as dazzled as people in the audience are
because because he just puts together these, you know, the
kind of fantastic shows. And at this particular moment, we're
(45:49):
still working on exactly what that will consist of. But
what I can tell you I can absolutely sure it
is that is that you know, you'll be sort of
staggered by how good it is, not because of me,
not because I make it so good, but because of
the stuff Simon brings to it all, and and it
just makes it a real joy and much more kind
(46:12):
of interactive experience with the audience. So it'll be really
talking partly about my life and times and work, but
also talking about the science and the universe and how
how we came to be the way we are.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Bill, are you definitely finished with the book now? I mean,
is there a big discovery that would make you revisit
it again?
Speaker 4 (46:33):
Well, that's I mean, the problem is of course, as
soon as you finish a book and it goes, the
world goes on. Yes, things were discovered, and you know,
somebody will will will come up with an answer to
what is the you know, what is the cause of
dark energy and dark matter and all of these other things.
(46:53):
Will continually learn more. But in a way, my book
isn't about it isn't about trying to be right up
to the minute. It's not. It's not a guide to
science so much. It's it's more sort of an appreciation
of the universe we live in and what science does
for us. So I'm hoping, you know, I've brought a
(47:14):
lot of the facts up to date, but I'm hoping
that as it as time goes on, it will become
slightly more dated. But I'm hoping that it is still
the general kind of thrust of the book will still
be okay, that people will still find it valuable. People
were still buying it before I did this updated version
and finding it useful because just an awful of history
(47:34):
in it and just sort of general generalizing. But you know,
the great thing at the moment is that it's just
about it's up to date. Could possibly make it.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Your best Guess from the Sunday session Great Jazz with
Francisca Rudgin on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks It'd Be.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
That was a lovely Bill Bryson A Short History of
Nearly Everything two point zero is out now and both
Bill Bryson andom Ottolinky, who I spoke to earlier, are
touring New Zealand and February next year. Thanks for joy
ting me on this News Talks He'd Be podcast. Please
feel free to share these chats, and if you liked
this podcast, make sure you follow us on iHeartRadio or
where if you get your podcasts. Don't forget we release
(48:16):
a new episode of Great Chats on the last Thursday
of every month.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks It'd Be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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