February 26, 2025 • 47 mins
In the first 2025 edition of Great Chats with Francesca Rudkin, former CIA analyst turned thriller writer David McCloskey talks his third book and how he captures CIA life.
New Zealand's own Morgana O'Reilly is a cast member on The White Lotus and tells Francesca what it was like on set and what audiences should expect from the hit show's third season.
And Jake Bailey captured the nation's attention when he was at high school with a cancer diagnosis. He's beaten the disease and has become a speaker on the international scene and talked his new book.
Great Chats with Francesca Rudkin brings you the best interviews from Newstalk ZB's The Sunday Session.
Listen on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks ATB. The big names, the fascinating guests,
the thoughtful conversations, bringing you the best interviews from the
Sunday Session. This is Great Chats with Francesca Rudkin, powered
(00:27):
by News Talks ATB.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello and welcome to Great Chats for twenty twenty five.
I'm Francesca Rudgin, host of the Sunday Session on News
Talks EDB, and in those podcast we picked some of
our favorite feature interviews from over the last month for
you to enjoy.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Coming up.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
In this episode, cancer survivor and educated Jake Bailey talks
about overcoming adversity, and Keir we actress MORGANA. O'reiley talks
about overcoming imposter syndrome while shooting the latest series of
The White Lotus. But first up, former CIA analyst turned
thriller writer turn podcast host David McCloskey. David has just
(01:02):
released his third spy thriller, The Seventh Floor, and I
started the inter you by asking how much of the
success of his books is down to his lived experience
he's writing about.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Well, I think certainly some of it is.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
I mean, I am trying in all of the books,
you know, first one Siria, second one's Russia. Third most
current one is the seventh Floor at CIA Headquarters. So
it's kind of a Langley book in each of them,
I am trying to be, you know, sort of real
and authentic to the actual operations of CIA, but also
the culture and the way the place feels and what
it's actually like to work there. And so I think
(01:39):
to some degree, having lived that and knowing a lot
of people you know very closely who did as well,
you know, it makes it easier, I think, to really
tell those stories than if I were coming at this
fully from the outside.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
It's interesting you mentioned culture because that's what I pick
up on. That's what I love about the books, is
that you kind of bring that unique culture of the
CIA at light. You write in the book Langley managed
to be dull and smug, tribal and bureau critic, a nerve,
seem to and totally remove from where the espionage actually
happens the field. Tell me a little bit about those
(02:14):
different fragmentations within the CIA, because you do pick that
up in your books.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think to some degree,
the CIA is like any other big organization where you
have a big bureaucracy. You have a lot of people
who are pretending to do work but actually aren't. You
have people spending all day in you know, vicious and
pointless meetings and sending emails, and you have this tension
(02:40):
between a headquarters and the field, which if you're working
in any big organization you know that has a bunch
of stores everywhere or a bunch of railroad terminals or whatever,
you're going to have that tension. So I think to
some degree, there's there's there are themes around the work
of CIA that will resonate with anybody, right, But at
the same time, the CIA is doing some really weird stuff.
(03:02):
I mean, we're out there trying to convince people to
commit reason and give us, you know, sort of or
sell us the darkest secrets that their country might have.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
So that's a.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
Bizarre thing for an organization to do. So both of
those dynamics are present every day at CIA, and I
think I kind of I wanted those to that. I
don't know, that reality right to come through in different
ways in each of the novels.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
You're so right, it's part of it is just so
foreign to many of us. In the other puts you
can just relate to so easily. It's just it's a
general organization very well put. Look, I get a sense
that people when they work for the CIA, they truly
believe in the work they do and they love it.
But I get the feeling from your book that the
CIA doesn't necessarily love you back.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Well. Again, I think it's this reality of working in
really big organizations, right, is that we can all convince
ourselves if we've served in one of these that were
invaluable and were irreplaceable, you know. And the fact is
is that, you know, the CIA is just like that
where you could spend thirty years there and you get
(04:11):
sent out with a kind of you know less than
you know, a ticker tape parade, let's say, and all
of a sudden you're out.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
You're actually out.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
The building moves on, the people move on, the organization,
the operations move on, and you're sort of, you know, left,
I think dealing with frankly, you know, this question of
what did you give to a place that doesn't actually
give you that much back in the end, And so
I really wanted especially in this book The Seventh Floor,
to kind of explore that tension or that dilemma of
(04:43):
you work at a place forever. It makes you, you know,
you help make it to some degree, but when you're out,
what do you take with you?
Speaker 4 (04:50):
What do you have left?
Speaker 5 (04:51):
You know, it's kind of a I think it's an
evergreen question for people who have been loyal to an
organization for a really long time.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
And is that how you felt when you left?
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Well?
Speaker 4 (05:01):
You know, actually, you know, I'm ashamed of it, not really,
I mean because.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I wish I I wish I had some great answer.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Kept out that door.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Awa.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, I'm done, I'm good things.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
I kind of thought, you know, I left for very
mundane reasons. It was just I looked at the people
who were five plus years ahead of me and said,
I'm not exactly sure this is what I want to
be doing. I want to go out into the world
and see what there is. So I didn't leave with
a sense of I don't think i'd been in for
you know, I hadn't been in for three decades, and
so I didn't have this built up sense of the
(05:33):
whole place was my life, you know. But I do
know people who have stayed in for multiple decades, some
for thirty, you know, five years, and there is this
you know that hearing those stories, I think is what
allowed me to fill the seventh floor with that kind
of feel and vibe.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Tell me about you know, when you leave the CIA,
you are writing from quite a privileged position with sort
of information around national security and things. Do you have
to submit to your manuscript to the CIA to cheek
like we how do you balance that? Like what you
can write about, what you can take from your lived
experience and share on the page.
Speaker 5 (06:15):
Yeah, so I am required to send everything to what
we call our publication review Board. So everything from you know,
updates to my resume to op eds I might write
for the newspaper, to the novels, everything goes to them.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Now.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
They are actually, you know, I think big government agency.
Maybe this thing's terrible to deal with. In reality, they're
actually pretty fast. I like to think maybe they just
love the book so they get them back to me
so quickly. You know, at least I've convinced myself of this,
But they're pretty fast. They are actually very thoughtful and
I think fair in what they choose to redact. They
do send stuff back. It's kind of humorous actually. So
(06:53):
you send them the document, you know, word document, and
they'll send back PDFs, like multiple PDFs in some cases,
like twenty or thirty PDFs.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It's all caps. Everything's been capitalized.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
I don't know why, what program they're putting this into
that capitalizes everything, and then they redacted with a black highlighter.
And that's the stuff that you can't put in, you know.
And the reality is I do a lot of frankly
self censoring upfront because I want to be responsible. There
are elements of the operations in the tradecrap that I
know were just off limits and frankly would probably be
(07:26):
boring to the reader, and so I choose to just
not not include that. So I've gotten kind of this
down after now, you know, just sent my fourth book
to them, like I've now got this down to kind
of a process and not a science, I would say,
but it moves pretty smoothly.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
A lot of the.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I'm sure that a lot of what you write about, obviously,
as we've talked about, comes from your lived experience and things,
and quite an extraordinary job. And I know that you
spent eight years covering Syria and you lived in Damascus
and things like that, has right actually been a way
for you to process maybe and deal with some of
the situations and issue you know, issues and things you've
(08:06):
hit to deal with as an analyst.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah, yeah, very much so.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
I mean, you know, the Syria experience really was the
start of this for me. You know, Syria, I worked
on it from the time when it was kind of
you know, pre civil war to them when it was
really in the thick of it.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
And that experience of just watching an entire.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Country pull itself to pieces, you know, hundreds of thousands
of people killed, the whole place shattered, you know, ninety
or so percent of the country in you know, sort
of in poverty, tens.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Of thousands of people disappeared.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
I mean, it was an experience where you feel you're
very connected to the place, and yet all the things
you're writing are kind of these strategic analyzes that are
you know, anodyne, really bureaucratically and for good reason. And
so for me, the writing when I got out was
really an attempt to try to connect, i think, to
some of the humanity of what had happened there and
(09:03):
to write stories, you know, and again I didn't start
thinking this would turn into novels, but just to kind
of rate stories that would help me process what I
had seen and experienced.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
And then it just went from there.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Did you see did you always think that this was
what you were going to do writ novels when you
left the CIA?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
When did that idea come up? Is this something you've
always been king to do?
Speaker 5 (09:27):
No, I mean, the idea actually came up sort of
embarrassingly late, I think. I mean, I left the CIA,
and I had time in between leaving and starting a
new job, and I didn't actually have to have a
job for those you know, three or four months, and
so I spent a lot of that time, pretty much
all that time writing But at no point did I
think that I would turn it into a book. It
(09:48):
was just for me really, And then you know, I
realized as I was writing that I loved the process
of writing, the input of it, just sitting down and
actually you know, spending six or eight hours putting words
down on paper. And so, you know, sort of fast
forward like five years from that, and I had this
manuscript which I thought, you know, was like maybe halfway decent,
(10:09):
but actually was terrible. I mean, it was you know,
really atrocious, like no plots, you know, totally disjointed characters,
because it was all just like a diary.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
You know.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
It's like, you know, Matthew McConaughey published his diary, but
I'm not McConaughey, So there was no market for you know,
David mccloskey's Syria diary. And but at that point, five
years on, I thought, look, I loved writing so much.
Let me see if I could turn this into something
that not only I want to write and read, but
that other people might. And so that idea came actually
(10:39):
very late, and it was years after I had left CIA.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Well that's interesting because they're so excellent. I thought maybe
you'd been right.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Well obviously you had been writing as an analyst, but
not quite like this. And I should just mention if
people want to hear a little bit more about how
you feel about what's going on in Syria at the moment.
You did cover that in your podcast The Rest Is Classified,
which which is fantastic. And let's have a little talk
about the podcast, because I've spent my summer listening to it.
It's a podcast E co host with Gordon our career
(11:11):
and you take us sort of into the mysterious world
of Spiesny Spinach, but these are actually true stories. What
is the importance to sharing these stories?
Speaker 5 (11:22):
Well, you know, I think I will say that one
of our one of Gordon's and I's kind of key
goals is, of course we're trying to entertain people with
these stories, but we are also trying to make them
as authentic as possible to the reality of the espionage business.
And so I think what we're trying to accomplish, frankly,
is to shed some light on a really misunderstood world
(11:48):
where most of us, I think, get our you know,
kind of cues or our hints about what it's like
from Hollywood, right, and I think the reality of the
business in many ways is actually far more interesting because
at the core of most of the stories we're telling,
it is just it's people who are like us, but
who happen to be in various parts of the espionage business.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Is their job either their intelligence.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Officers, you know, or they're the actual spies who have
been recruited to go and you know, give secrets. And
it's just kind of fascinating the choices that these humans
have made because they tend to be caught up in,
you know, games where the geopolitical stakes are very high,
where the personal stakes are very high, and where many
of them are sort of living in existence, where they're
(12:35):
telling one group of people one thing and another group
of people another thing, and so there's all these themes
of betrayal and deception that kind of infuse the stories. So,
you know, it's frankly just the case that there's a
lot of material out there, right, and we do believe
that even people who are not you know, maybe they're
not reading spy thrillers regularly, we do believe that they'll
(12:58):
be interested in these stories because at the heart of
them are just really interesting people.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Absolutely, you would all concerned for the sacred Service and
President Trump.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Yeah, you know, I think I am.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
I am trying to, I think maintain kind of a
cautious hope that there will be more smoke than fire
and that the headlines that we're seeing that a lot
of the kind of concern won't really translate into an
effect on the CIS mission. I mean, when I talk
to people who are on the inside, who were there
(13:36):
for the first Trump administration, have been there, you know
since I left, they would tell you that there was
you know, really almost no disruption to the cias Court
mission over the course of that you know, time that
the CI just kind of runs and there's bluster and
you know, politicking, you know, a sort of the thirty
thousand foot level, but not really when you get down
(13:57):
to what's happening inside CIA. You know, I think the
buyouts that have been offered kind of strike me as
maybe not the best idea, in large part because it's
just not really focused.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
You know. I think it's probably the.
Speaker 5 (14:10):
Case that in any massive organization there are efficiencies to
be had of just you know, jobs, people, roles, etc.
That either need to be moved or maybe don't need
to be there. But you've got to be really targeted
about that kind of stuff. And so I really do
hope that again more smoke than fire, and I'm sort
of cautiously hopeful that that will be the case in
Trump two point zero, as it was the first time around.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
David just finally, you know, I read the books and
I love them, and it reflects sort of current day espionage.
I listen to the podcast and some of those stories
are historical espionage stories, and I wonder has the trade
actually sort of changed that much over the years, or
is it or a spy still essentially doing the same thing,
(14:56):
maybe just with some bitter tech.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Yeah, yeah, well I think I think the answer is
busy yes to both of those things. I think that
the trade has changed significantly because basically a combination of
you know, cameras, biometrics, sensors everywhere, plus dirt cheap storage,
plus analytic tools to make sense of all that information,
(15:20):
many of which are AI powered. All of that means
that the fundamental kind of trade craft of how you
go through an operation to let's say, recruit somebody and
run them in Moscow or Beijing or Damascus or wherever,
that's totally different now, right, So it has changed. It's
also true that you know, secrets that you know, maybe
(15:43):
in the past were not digital. They were physical. It
was paper, it was in people's heads. There's now a
lot more digitally to be stolen. Right, So there's there
are kind of, you know, i'd say, massive changes to
the overall business. That said, I think it's still true
that having a really well placed human source, you know,
(16:04):
be they in the Kremlin with access to the Vladimir
Putin or b they Inassa's presidential palace, or you know,
from the Russian standpoint, you think about my book The
Seventh Floor, on the seventh floor at CIA's headquarters at Langley.
You know, having an agent or asset in those roles
is still an absolutely unique and extremely valuable thing for
(16:28):
a foreign intelligence service to have, and I don't think
the value of that is going away. I think that
it's getting more expensive to do that. I think it's
getting harder to do that, but it's still exceptionally valuable.
So a lot of the old school espionage stories that
we're doing on the POD, I think actually do have
present day kind of analogs or you know, relevant implications
(16:49):
because you know, you think one story we just did recently,
Adolf Tolkachev, the spy in Moscow at the height of
the Cold War. We would kill to have an Adolf
Tolkachev today embedded in Moscow in kind of key defense
industries in Moscow telling us everything about what the Russians
are developing for the next twenty years. We would love
to have that today, So it's still very relevant.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
The biggest names from the Sunday session great chats with
Francesca Rudkin on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
A'd be that was David McCloskey. I was really thrilled
to get him on the show. He's in huge demand
these days and fast becoming a superstar thriller writer, largely
because he gets it so right.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And that's just not my opinion.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Is that is from former CIA staff who say his
books are the best account of CIA life. Hey, look,
if you're a fan of the character Artemis Proctor like
I am, David confirmed to me after the interview she
is not in book four, but she is back for
book five, so that's good news. So his latest book
is called The Seventh Floor and the podcast we spoke
(17:50):
about is The Rest is Classified. Morgana O'Reilly is a
very talented Key actress who starred in films such as Bookworm,
house Bound, TV shows, Neighbors, Friends Like Her, Mean Mums,
and now the latest series of The White Lotus, which
is quite a big deal. We chatted the day before
the series was released in New Zealand, so I started
(18:12):
by asking her how excited she was ahead of the release.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Oh, my gosh, I'm excited.
Speaker 7 (18:18):
I'm probably not the same kind of excited as everybody else.
Because obviously I'm a little bit scared. I can't just
watch it the way I have the last two seasons
be like yay. I'm like, oh gosh, okay, there's me No,
but I'm really excited. It will be the full circle,
you know, from the first audition and then ah, there's
(18:40):
been so many kind of big wins and flag post
moments along the way. It'll be a really it'll bookend
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And yeah, I have seen the first two episodes. I
don't think you've got anything to be scared about. Tell
us a little bit about your character, Pam.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Oh my goodness, you've seen the first look.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
You've seen more than I have.
Speaker 7 (19:05):
I haven't even seen the first two evers. She is
a health butler. She is Australian. She is she's assigned
to assist the Ratless Ratless family, who are headed by
Jason Isaacs and Park Posey and their three children. Yes,
(19:28):
so she organizes their wellness routine.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I don't want I don't want to tell anyone anything
about it because it's just so much fun watching everything unfold.
But this show is it's quite out there. It's a
little bit mad. What was it like being on set filming.
Speaker 7 (19:47):
It well, on set was really it was great, and
that felt that felt like a normal I was. I
felt really a comfortable in that space actually on set
and we're in these beautiful, beautiful hotels and locations on
(20:09):
these beaches and things like that, and sometimes you just
feel like, I mean, it's just daunting the kind of
juggernauts in which you're working with, you know, like the
the welcome scene when you've got likele Lisa from Black Pink,
She's just hanging around. She's so lovely and so sweet
(20:29):
and kind and humble. I have no idea that she's
basically Beyonce. I mean, like, yeah, it was a lot,
I tell you what, it was great. It was a
lot of things, a lot of feelings fluctuating between who
so glad I'm here too, I don't belong here and
I can't bear this, to be honest.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
The hotel is insane you were living Is it right
that you were living there? I'm sure you mentioned that
to us before you were living there while you were filming.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
Yeah, yeah, so like we had, they were all living
and working at the Four Seasons in Kossimoi. So it
was like a really amazingly beautiful retirement home with lots
of young and healthy people who have lots of money.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
All cast and crew.
Speaker 7 (21:19):
So it's glorious, how idyllic. And then we also shot
and pouquette at a couple of different places there, and
so we'd often live and work in the in the hotel.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I wonder if it's ruined you a little bit that,
you know, you get an acting gig which also just
happens to be in a you know, in this incredible
sort of hotel resort. Next time someone puts you up,
you're going to be a bit like, oh is this that?
Speaker 5 (21:41):
I know?
Speaker 7 (21:42):
It's so bad? I mean, you don't I need to
I need to sometimes check how much I talk about it,
because I kin didn't sort of even click that at
a certain level of hotel, it would be crazy not
to have your own private pool.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I'm like, what you get one of those? Oh now
I can't go back. I have to share.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It wasn't relaxing having your family. I know that you're
family came up at one point, and I think the
kids came as well. Was it relaxing having them there?
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Or it was so wonderful?
Speaker 7 (22:11):
But then you know, like it was actually and I
was wonderful to have them there because a my husband,
you know, he's a director, so it was really cool
for him to because we're working in this space. So
it was this amazing hotel, but it was also an
active film set, which is just like an absolute treat
when you're in this industry because you get to go
(22:32):
to a hotel, but you get to also like, you know,
I'll be swimming in the pool, but over there is
second unit just filming a couple of cutaway shots of
some things that can catch you, like beautiful foliage and
the ocean, things like that, so you get to sort
of see a film crew over there, or you know,
the kids will be playing madly in the pool, in
(22:53):
the big shared pool with the other kids from the crew,
and then you know a third, fourth or first ad
would run down frantically and go please be quiet, please
be quiet, because they're filming, like oogiez.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yeah, it was great.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So great our screen industry here in New Zealand, it's amazing.
But was it quite a different experience to other shows
you've worked on when you get to work on something,
you know, a smash a show like this, yes.
Speaker 7 (23:23):
Yes, well no, I mean it's a multifaceted answer. I
guess my point of view being on set is I
felt really prepared.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
For that bit, which was good.
Speaker 7 (23:35):
But then of course the resources in other areas was
definitely a lot greater than I had experienced before. I
also think, you know, to clarify, the New Zealand industry
is kind of multifaceted as well. There is an international
film industry that comes and shoots in New Zealand that
(23:57):
often hires New Zealand crew and a smattering the bare
minimum New Zealand cast. And then there is the New
New Zealand TV and film industry which scrapes by as
much as I can and dare I say, is really
on struggle street at the moment to make stuff. So
(24:18):
whether you're you might be shooting something in New Zealand,
but there can be leagues apart, whether you're shooting the
Luminaries versus something for SPP, so it's profoundly different.
Speaker 6 (24:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
How big a break for you is this? Career wise?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Are you bracing yourself a potential exposure? I mean, we've
always known that you're brilliant here, but you know, this
is sort of on a global scale, isn't it MORGANA, I.
Speaker 7 (24:46):
Don't know, you know what, Like it's still it feels
like a it feels like I'm on a big cruise ship.
It's moving slow and steady and strongly.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I'm currently you know, the lead.
Speaker 7 (25:03):
In a six part thrillers Areas for Paramount, which heaven,
and I was essentially offered that role, and I don't
think that that would have happened.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
In that way without this behind me, which is which
is great.
Speaker 7 (25:18):
And then once it comes out, you know, I have
sort of bracing myself for many different realities and all
of which I can deal with, all of which I'm
happy for. There's a chance that I kind of get
Nobody really pays too much attention. There's so many carts,
so many characters, and so maybe it's just a really
(25:41):
great thing on my CV and it gives me a
little bit more money in the world, you know, and
makes it easier for other productions to get people to
give them money to make it because they can say, well,
we've got more Ganner and she's been in White Lotus,
so that's nice to help out other things.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Who knows.
Speaker 7 (26:01):
Also, like I could get absolutely ripped apart online.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
I don't know, I.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Repair of a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
I don't think that's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
But that's really interesting what you say that there's lots
of little silver linings, isn't it That might not be obvious.
You're not necessarily going, oh yeah, it's going to be great.
You know, people are going to recognize me more and
know who I am, and it's going to be easy
to get jobs. Is actually it can actually trickle down
in lots of different ways and can be really grateful
previous shows that you've been a part of as well,
you know, bringing them to light again.
Speaker 7 (26:29):
That's a real that warms my heart majorly with all
that you know, I'm going to go up to the
premier year and all this stuff. I think, and maybe
this is the key we in me, but at a
certain point things feel really indulgent and they feel like
I'm vying for the spotlight that I don't deserve. But
the you know, the oxytocin countenance to that quartersole spike
(26:55):
is that it lifts up everybody and everything that I
am currently working on and have work done, and.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
So that feels nice.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
That's great. Let's do that.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Tell me a little bit about what you are doing
in Australia this at the moment.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
I'm doing a series called Playing Gracie Darling and it's oh,
it's so cool, and especially because I just if I
saw this synopsis, I was I would be so all
aboard because it's a mystery series, thriller but with a
little bit of smattering of ghost story spookiness, like there's
(27:32):
it's a bit scary, not in a horror movie sense,
but in a thriller sense. So it's a bit Mayor
of East Town.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
It's a bit sharp objects.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
But nice ohasty stuff and some like flashbacks to the
late nineties.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Oh yeah, come home so good.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And look, just before you go, I want to touch
base with you on where Stories about My Body is at,
because we've spoken to you about that before turning it
into a film.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
I know that there's been a bit of crowdfunding going.
Have you had any time to work on that at all?
Speaker 7 (28:05):
Oh, my goodness, were so close to finishing the edit
and it's going to go into post production and there
is music being made. There is all these wheels in motion,
which like that something like that, which has been such
an art baby, not just for me but for my
husband and all the people that are involved are our
(28:27):
friends and dear creatives who have given their time and
energy and incredible talents. So it's really close to being
a little finished and then who knows, then we have
to find somewhere to put it.
Speaker 8 (28:42):
But yes, this.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Year, I reckon. Oh look, one step at a time.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Can you do me a favored MORGANA when you turn
up at that premiere, can you just say, oh, hi,
I'm MORGANA and I deserve to be here.
Speaker 7 (28:54):
Oh, Kyota, Yes, I will, I will, I'll be I'll
be clutching my pearls looking around the room.
Speaker 6 (29:02):
And I to be here.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
I'm MORGANA. And Hi, Jennifer Cool.
Speaker 7 (29:08):
It's nice to bet your Bookhanna, and I deserve to
be here.
Speaker 6 (29:11):
It's not my last name.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
You need to work you need to work on that.
But look, hey, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
It's always really great to catch up with you and
look forward to catching up with you throughout the year.
Speaker 7 (29:23):
Thanks men.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Jessica bringing you the best interviews from the Sunday session.
Great chats with Francesca Rudkin on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
At be Always love catching up with MORGANA. Really great
to hear how well she is doing. She is I
think going to be one of our biggest exports. She
seems to be working everywhere in New Zealand and Australia
and in the States or Thailand, wherever it may be.
And I'm so thrilled for her because she has been
working extremely hard for a long time now. She deserves
all the success coming her way. And we're going to
(29:56):
end today on an interview that we got a huge
amount of feedback on. Jake Baiy is a cancer survivor,
a positive psychology graduate, an author, and an international speak
on resilience, and he is twenty seven. He joined us
to talk about his new book, The Comeback Code, and
we started by talking about his cancer diagnosis he got
when he was in year thirteen at high school. So
(30:18):
I started by asking Jake whether he can put into
words what it is like to be told you have
two weeks to live.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
It's a funny one.
Speaker 8 (30:27):
That's a question which I often get actually, particularly when
I work with young people and students. I think that
you know, for them, they probably heard a little bit
of my story and maybe find themselves trying to picture
what that could or would be like and as I
often tell them, it's a great question with a really
really boring answer, unfortunately, which is that it feels like
(30:47):
not a huge amount. It kind of wasn't necessarily any
of the things which you would expect to feel. I
wasn't angry or upset or scared or afraid or maybe
any of those things which had instinctively expected to be.
Speaker 6 (30:58):
Like, it felt like not a huge amount.
Speaker 8 (31:02):
And maybe if there was anything, there was probably a
little bit of a sense of wanting to crack it
and get started. I knew that, you know, the only
way to get through was going to be going through
the treatment, going through the chemotherapy, and coming out the
other side, and so there was maybe a little bit
of a sense of wanting to get on with it.
But yeah, it doesn't, in my case at least kind
of feel like a huge amount.
Speaker 6 (31:24):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I mean, you don't do things by halves, do you.
I mean, it was quite a diagnosis. As you say
in the book, you were the usane bolt of dying.
Speaker 8 (31:32):
That's yeah, a bold claim to make it, particularly without
broader context around it.
Speaker 6 (31:37):
I suppose, but it's yeah, it was.
Speaker 8 (31:40):
It was a very aggressive, very very aggressive and fast
growing full of cancer, and you know, I'm incredibly fortunate
and privileged in many ways, but he's first.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
Of all to have had access to treatment.
Speaker 8 (31:53):
Secondly to have had the opportunity to be treated by
and kid for by an incredible medical team here in
christ Church, and then third to have been really fortunate
and really privileged to have I guess, survived it and
been able to come out the other side and make
it out and continue.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
To move on in life.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
So how has having cancer changed you?
Speaker 6 (32:13):
Look?
Speaker 8 (32:13):
I mean, there's probably so many ways that it would
be easier to list the things which it hasn't changed
as much as that is a cliche, but I think
probably at its core, I guess the resilience was the
main thing that I took away from the cancer. I think,
particularly as a young person, you know, going into the cancer,
being eighteen, where in the weeks and months prior to
(32:34):
the diagnosis I've been worried, worrying about these very average,
regular kind of teenage things like you know, bad exam results,
or not making sports teams I've tried for, or having
fallouts with mates, or being self conscious, as I think
we all are when we're that age.
Speaker 6 (32:50):
And then to come through the cancer, to come out the.
Speaker 8 (32:52):
Other side three months later and to have I guess
some skills or tools or strategies around resilience which I've
learned from going through the cancer, which had fundamentally changed
how I felt about life. I mean, I came out
and I was no longer kind of wighed down or
bogged down by a lot of these things which previously
had been quite a burden or had caused me a
(33:15):
lot of I guess, anxiety and worry as a young person.
Speaker 6 (33:18):
And yeah, I think it's core.
Speaker 8 (33:20):
I mean, that's probably been the biggest change that's allowed
me to be a i'd like to say, a happier, optimistic,
more grateful person after the cancer than I was beforehand.
Speaker 6 (33:31):
And I think it's core.
Speaker 8 (33:32):
You know, the basis for that in any of those things,
that optimism, that that happiness, all of those positive things
comes from having learned to be more resilient. And I
guess that's where my passion for resilience comes from.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Let's talk about this passion. Can we better equip people
to deal with challenge and challenges life rose at them?
We can we train ourselves to be more resilient?
Speaker 8 (33:54):
Absolutely, unequivocally yes, and you know, that's not my opinion.
That's the research, that's the evidence, That is what we
can see. And I think, you know, there's something quite
empowering about the knowledge of that is well, I think
knowing that we can get better and be better at
getting through tough times allows us to feel a little
bit less untethered.
Speaker 6 (34:16):
During those tough times in adversity. The knowledge that we.
Speaker 8 (34:18):
Can learn to be better at getting through this challenge
makes us feel as though we have some sort of
control and direction over what we go through.
Speaker 6 (34:26):
And I guess how we deal with it.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
And I think that there's something quite empowering about that
understanding in itself that a big part of learning to
be more resilient, a big part of learning to be
better at getting through tough times, is actually going through
those tough times. And I think that that knowledge allows
you to meet adversity and challenge with the attitude of
it being I guess a training ground or looking to
(34:47):
take something away from it, looking to come out the
other side more resilient and improved by it.
Speaker 6 (34:52):
And I think that's kind of I guess, empowering in itself.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, let's talk about the four S model. I really
like this model. The first s is slow down and
this is possibly one of my favorites because I think
you can actually put it into play in day today life.
It's the idea of breaking big things down into small,
manageable chunks.
Speaker 8 (35:13):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, And I think that you know something
which is relevant and applicable to I guess resilience into
getting through adversity. And I should stress as well that
all of this is you know, evidence and research based
and it's not you know me sort of hypothesizing or
or proplytizing on things which I think are great or cooler,
things which have worked for me or helped me get
through challenges in life.
Speaker 6 (35:33):
You know, these are things which we know.
Speaker 8 (35:34):
For a fact make people better at getting through tough times,
make people more resilient. So when it comes to slowing down, yeah,
the idea of breaking things up into more manageable, bite
sized pieces. This is not something which we just apply
to challenge in adversity in life.
Speaker 5 (35:48):
You know.
Speaker 8 (35:48):
This is how we get through anything. So is how
we get through a task. This is how we I guess,
break down goals and work towards things that we want
to achieve. This is kind of you know, if you
go to the gym' You know, I don't, but I'm
reliably informed that you break your work down into sort
of sets and reps, right, I've been told by people.
You know, I do a bit of running, and I
(36:09):
know that for me, when I go for a run,
I'm mentally breaking it down into you know, kilometers at
a time, or blocks of five k's at a time,
whatever it may be, because it makes it a whole
lot easier than trying to approach it as one big,
single book.
Speaker 6 (36:20):
Single lump sum.
Speaker 8 (36:21):
And you know, I can pull out a million different
examples of that from you know, cooking and recipes to
so on and so forth, but it's core.
Speaker 6 (36:28):
I think it's something which is.
Speaker 8 (36:29):
Irrelevant and applicable to going through tough times as well.
You know, it works better when you take it on
whatever sized pieces you can manage, whether that's a month
at a time, a week at a time, a day
at a time, an hour at a time. I know
for all of your listeners, they will have gone through
challenge and adversity and suffering over the course of their lifetime,
and they would have found themselves in moments where the
sort I don't know how I'm going.
Speaker 6 (36:49):
To get through this this week, you know, this day,
that hour, this this whatever I have to go through.
Speaker 8 (36:55):
And so the answer is generally you just try and
break it down into a smaller piece and continually take
those off one after another.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
The second is is salvage.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And I know that this is one of your favorites,
that something positive can come out of adversity. How important
do you think a sense of humor is when dealing
with the advances.
Speaker 8 (37:14):
I make a sense of humor as povotal really and
again the research and evidence seems to suggest it this.
You know, there's some really fascinating research and evidence which
which shows that young people who come from families that
utilize humor as a coping mechanism or a coping strategy
during adversity, during tough times go on to create young
people who are I guess, far more resilient and robust
(37:37):
and well adjusted later on in life. You know, if
you can learn that during tough times things don't have
to be completely binary, that things are not you know,
if if something is bad, it doesn't mean.
Speaker 6 (37:47):
It has to be all bad.
Speaker 8 (37:48):
If you can get into this mindset that there can
be you know, silver lightings or good within the darkness
or you know, sorry, light within the darkness are good
within the bad. Then I think you puts you in
a position where you're better able to approach adversity not
so much as an enemy or a challenge, but instead
to be able to to deliberately seek out some of
these positive things. And you're on that note of humor again,
(38:12):
this is sort of what humor is at its core
when it comes to getting through adversity. If you can
find something to laugh at during a tough time, that
really is the you know, the ultimate and salvaging. If
you can take some livity, if you can take some lightness,
if you can take some humor away from a tough time,
then the research shows that it really helps people gets through.
And you know, it's very easy to talk about, you know,
research and evidence and so on and so forth, but
(38:33):
I think you know, if people, if you're listeners, if
you know someone who worked particularly and I like giving
the example of nursing because I've spent a bit of
time with nurses, and when you do, you come to
find that they have exceptionally dark, but incredibly well refined,
fantastic senses of humor, and they do that because it
allows them to get through.
Speaker 6 (38:53):
It's you know, they find.
Speaker 8 (38:53):
Themselves in a lot of situations whether it's either a
laugh or cry moment, and you know, when your options
are those two, there's nothing wrong with the former, but
I think kind of ninety percent of the time you
feel you feel better with the latter. It applies to
I think anyone in a high pressure, high stakes profession,
whether it's police or fieries or even teachers. I think
a lot of the time these people who operate in
(39:15):
these stressful environs naturally gravitate towards utilizing humor because it works.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Your third s is streamline, and that is the idea
of sort of minimizing and containing those everyday anxieties and
fears we have. And look, I know that this book
is written for everybody, young or old, but I'm going
to be honest with you as a mother who's just
sent one kut off to university, and a whole lot
of friends who are in that sort of same process
and things, and we're watching the way our young adults
(39:43):
are adapting to this new sort of stage in life.
Speaker 6 (39:46):
I really did.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I read this book feeling like it it sort of
can't drop out of the scar into my lap at
the perfect moment. It feels to me like a resource
which is very much going to resonate with younger people.
I think it's about the way. It's the way you
talk in the book, and about the contributors that you
talk to. But there's a lot of talk about life
(40:07):
at school, the pressures on teenagers to plan out their lives,
to fit in, to find your thing, but not every
teenager knows that are we focusing on the wrong things
when it comes to growing happy, resilient, grounded young adults.
Speaker 8 (40:22):
It's funny, it's a great question. Are we focusing on
the wrong things? And in some ways potentially in other
ways I guess maybe not, which is really roundabout kind
of answer, But to sort of expand upon that, I think, yeah,
the way that young people are increasingly encouraged to begin
to hyper specialize in fields of studying education earlier and
(40:44):
earlier is creating an expectation for young people that they
ought to have their life planned out by the time
that they're about thirteen or fourteen years old. And I
think often when I present to parents and communities around this,
there's a sense that I might be kind of utilizing
hyperbole to make a point here when I'm genuinely not.
You know, a lot of the time, our schools are
(41:05):
expecting students to have sort of a relatively clear idea
on what they want to do by the time they're
kind of thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old, because the expectation
is you will begin to choose subjects based on what
you want to do during your senior important years of
high school. I suppose, based on what you want to
do when you leave school, based on what you want
to do for the rest of your life. And again,
(41:26):
if that sounds like hyperbole, it probably is just a
reflection of how much the education system has changed then
some of your listeners than it was for when some
of your listeners went through that experience. And I think,
as I say in the book, you know, I've been told,
as we all have many times, that you know, the
world is your oyster when you're young, and you've got
(41:47):
so many options and opportunities ahead of you, which is,
you know, a fantastic thing and.
Speaker 6 (41:51):
A real blessing for us if you're in that position.
Speaker 8 (41:55):
But at the same time, you know, for me, looking
back on my time at school, I think I recall
that feeling a lot less kind of empowering or exciting
and feeling a lot more sort of daunting and frightening.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
And again it's worth reflecting on the fact that you know,
for young.
Speaker 8 (42:10):
People today, if they're told that, or if they're in
that position, there are incredibly fortunate as I was, to
have the privilege of opportunity ahead of them, because there's
a lot of people around the world, and there's a
lot of people even within you know, within our society
and communities who don't necessarily have that. But at the
same time, I think it creates a level of anxiety
for our young people because it's a daunting prospect and there.
Speaker 6 (42:32):
Is a focus and an increasing focus.
Speaker 8 (42:35):
On our young people doing that earlier and earlier, which
I don't think is quite helpful.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
And the final S is stand alongside. And the basic
message here is you don't need to climb that mountain alone.
You know, ask for help, accept help.
Speaker 6 (42:50):
Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think that that's relatively intuitive.
Speaker 8 (42:54):
And actually I should say as well, I hope that
you know, for you and for your listeners, most of
these four s's are kind of relatively intuitive. I think
that you know, as I present to communities or businesses
and organizations around this. Often when I present around this,
I talk to the audience afterwards and people say, you know,
this really rung a bell for me. That's really resonated
(43:16):
with me. These are things which I've utilized. These are
things which I've used in my life. My response to
which is great because it probably means that you're a
relatively resilient, well adjusted adult, and that you've gone through
challenge and adversity over the course of your lifetime. You've
naturally come towards these skills or strategies. You've gravitated towards
(43:37):
these because they work, You've learned them, you've retained them,
and you've continued to use them. But there's two things
to note about that, I guess One for our adults,
it's important, I think sometimes to be able to put
names or concepts to some of these, or I guess
words to some of these concepts, or even put some
further information and research and evidence behind things which people
(43:58):
intuitively or naturally do.
Speaker 6 (44:00):
I've chatted to a few people who've.
Speaker 8 (44:01):
Read the book who have said, you know, it's quite
empowering to understand why these things which I've lent on
over the course of my lifetime work for me and
kind of what I can do to expand and grow
upon those. But two, I think it's important to note
as well that you know, these are not things which,
as young people we are born with.
Speaker 6 (44:19):
They're not sort of in built.
Speaker 8 (44:20):
We didn't come out of the womb with these skills
or strategies already within us. If they sound familiar to you,
it's because, as I say, you've learned them through blood
and sweet and tears. You've earned them before our young
people we have the capacity, we have the opportunity to,
I guess, prepare them better now before they go out
into the world for the challenges and challenges that they
(44:40):
will face.
Speaker 6 (44:40):
We know that these things work.
Speaker 8 (44:42):
We know that they're teachable, tainable, trainable, and entertainable. There's
things which we can which we can equip our young
people with now, hopefully at a stage of life with
the adversity and challenge that they're facing is not too significant,
but certainly before they get out into the big wide
world and things start coming at you pretty fast as
they as they kind of tend to for all of
(45:03):
us in life. Because you know, I never have adversity
is it's kind of one of those inevitabilities of the
world ahead of us.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
You know, they see death taxes, yea, yeah, death different Texas.
Speaker 8 (45:13):
They sort of both fall under that adversity kind of
kind of bracket.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
You'd think, Hey, yeah, totally Look Jake, before you go,
I've just got to ask, did I just see a
picture of you in Antarctica wearing shorts?
Speaker 4 (45:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (45:25):
Yeah, you might have seen that actually as well, which
which if you did, it probably means that the Health
and Safety manager is going to be on the phone
to me very shortly, because I'm not sure, not kind
of sure whether that was was in the briefing or not.
Speaker 5 (45:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (45:39):
I've just been really fortunate to spend some time down
in Antarctica with an incredible organization called the Antarctic Heritage Trust,
who manage and preserve and conserve all of the history
down there, all of their hearts and the artifacts from
the heroic age of exploration down there. And it's really, yeah,
very incredibly privileged and fortunate to have the opportunity to
spend some time down there with their work and to
(46:01):
I guess learn a little bit more about some of
the resilience of those incredible early polar explorers as well.
Speaker 6 (46:06):
You know, the Shackletons, the Scots.
Speaker 8 (46:08):
The stories sort of will be incredibly familiar to many
of your listeners, I'm sure, and it was a great
opportunity to learn a little bit more about I guess
what allowed them to get through.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
And another one of our listeners would like to know
how old you are?
Speaker 2 (46:20):
They like, who was this incredibly articulate, incredibly articulate young man.
Speaker 6 (46:25):
How old hi am? That's very kind. I'm twenty seven.
Speaker 8 (46:29):
But I've spent a lot of time talking over the
past few years. So if I hadn't have picked up
a few tips and tricks by now, you'd probably think
I was a relatively slow learner. I've had a bit
of practice talking about this stuff, to be fair, and
fifteen year olds can throw some pretty left of field
questions your way, so you get relatively quick at thinking.
Speaker 6 (46:46):
On your feet when you work with schools. But I
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
The best guest from the Sunday session Great Jazz with
Francesca rudget on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks, it'd be.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
That was Jake Bailey and look, I really meant it
when I said I felt like this book landed in
my lap at the right moment. If you do have
a young adult in the house, I think this is
an credible reasours for them and written by someone young
enough to remember high school and the transitional years after
and understands all the emotions and worries and precious teenagers
go through. I got a lot out of it too,
but it has definitely been passed around our house and appreciated.
(47:21):
The book is called The Comeback Code. Thanks for joining
me on this News Talks They'd Be podcast. Please feel
free to share these chats, and if you liked this podcast,
make sure you follow us on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts. Don't forget we release a new episode
of Great Chats on the last Thursday of every month.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks They'd Be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks ATB. The big names, the fascinating guests,
the thoughtful conversations, bringing you the best interviews from the
Sunday Session. This is Great Chats with Francesca Rudkin, powered
(00:27):
by News Talks ATB.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello and welcome to Great Chats for twenty twenty five.
I'm Francesca Rudgin, host of the Sunday Session on News
Talks EDB, and in those podcast we picked some of
our favorite feature interviews from over the last month for
you to enjoy.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Coming up.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
In this episode, cancer survivor and educated Jake Bailey talks
about overcoming adversity, and Keir we actress MORGANA. O'reiley talks
about overcoming imposter syndrome while shooting the latest series of
The White Lotus. But first up, former CIA analyst turned
thriller writer turn podcast host David McCloskey. David has just
(01:02):
released his third spy thriller, The Seventh Floor, and I
started the inter you by asking how much of the
success of his books is down to his lived experience
he's writing about.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Well, I think certainly some of it is.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
I mean, I am trying in all of the books,
you know, first one Siria, second one's Russia. Third most
current one is the seventh Floor at CIA Headquarters. So
it's kind of a Langley book in each of them,
I am trying to be, you know, sort of real
and authentic to the actual operations of CIA, but also
the culture and the way the place feels and what
it's actually like to work there. And so I think
(01:39):
to some degree, having lived that and knowing a lot
of people you know very closely who did as well,
you know, it makes it easier, I think, to really
tell those stories than if I were coming at this
fully from the outside.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
It's interesting you mentioned culture because that's what I pick
up on. That's what I love about the books, is
that you kind of bring that unique culture of the
CIA at light. You write in the book Langley managed
to be dull and smug, tribal and bureau critic, a nerve,
seem to and totally remove from where the espionage actually
happens the field. Tell me a little bit about those
(02:14):
different fragmentations within the CIA, because you do pick that
up in your books.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think to some degree,
the CIA is like any other big organization where you
have a big bureaucracy. You have a lot of people
who are pretending to do work but actually aren't. You
have people spending all day in you know, vicious and
pointless meetings and sending emails, and you have this tension
(02:40):
between a headquarters and the field, which if you're working
in any big organization you know that has a bunch
of stores everywhere or a bunch of railroad terminals or whatever,
you're going to have that tension. So I think to
some degree, there's there's there are themes around the work
of CIA that will resonate with anybody, right, But at
the same time, the CIA is doing some really weird stuff.
(03:02):
I mean, we're out there trying to convince people to
commit reason and give us, you know, sort of or
sell us the darkest secrets that their country might have.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
So that's a.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
Bizarre thing for an organization to do. So both of
those dynamics are present every day at CIA, and I
think I kind of I wanted those to that. I
don't know, that reality right to come through in different
ways in each of the novels.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
You're so right, it's part of it is just so
foreign to many of us. In the other puts you
can just relate to so easily. It's just it's a
general organization very well put. Look, I get a sense
that people when they work for the CIA, they truly
believe in the work they do and they love it.
But I get the feeling from your book that the
CIA doesn't necessarily love you back.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Well. Again, I think it's this reality of working in
really big organizations, right, is that we can all convince
ourselves if we've served in one of these that were
invaluable and were irreplaceable, you know. And the fact is
is that, you know, the CIA is just like that
where you could spend thirty years there and you get
(04:11):
sent out with a kind of you know less than
you know, a ticker tape parade, let's say, and all
of a sudden you're out.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
You're actually out.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
The building moves on, the people move on, the organization,
the operations move on, and you're sort of, you know, left,
I think dealing with frankly, you know, this question of
what did you give to a place that doesn't actually
give you that much back in the end, And so
I really wanted especially in this book The Seventh Floor,
to kind of explore that tension or that dilemma of
(04:43):
you work at a place forever. It makes you, you know,
you help make it to some degree, but when you're out,
what do you take with you?
Speaker 4 (04:50):
What do you have left?
Speaker 5 (04:51):
You know, it's kind of a I think it's an
evergreen question for people who have been loyal to an
organization for a really long time.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
And is that how you felt when you left?
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Well?
Speaker 4 (05:01):
You know, actually, you know, I'm ashamed of it, not really,
I mean because.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I wish I I wish I had some great answer.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Kept out that door.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Awa.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah, I'm done, I'm good things.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
I kind of thought, you know, I left for very
mundane reasons. It was just I looked at the people
who were five plus years ahead of me and said,
I'm not exactly sure this is what I want to
be doing. I want to go out into the world
and see what there is. So I didn't leave with
a sense of I don't think i'd been in for
you know, I hadn't been in for three decades, and
so I didn't have this built up sense of the
(05:33):
whole place was my life, you know. But I do
know people who have stayed in for multiple decades, some
for thirty, you know, five years, and there is this
you know that hearing those stories, I think is what
allowed me to fill the seventh floor with that kind
of feel and vibe.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Tell me about you know, when you leave the CIA,
you are writing from quite a privileged position with sort
of information around national security and things. Do you have
to submit to your manuscript to the CIA to cheek
like we how do you balance that? Like what you
can write about, what you can take from your lived
experience and share on the page.
Speaker 5 (06:15):
Yeah, so I am required to send everything to what
we call our publication review Board. So everything from you know,
updates to my resume to op eds I might write
for the newspaper, to the novels, everything goes to them.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Now.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
They are actually, you know, I think big government agency.
Maybe this thing's terrible to deal with. In reality, they're
actually pretty fast. I like to think maybe they just
love the book so they get them back to me
so quickly. You know, at least I've convinced myself of this,
But they're pretty fast. They are actually very thoughtful and
I think fair in what they choose to redact. They
do send stuff back. It's kind of humorous actually. So
(06:53):
you send them the document, you know, word document, and
they'll send back PDFs, like multiple PDFs in some cases,
like twenty or thirty PDFs.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
It's all caps. Everything's been capitalized.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
I don't know why, what program they're putting this into
that capitalizes everything, and then they redacted with a black highlighter.
And that's the stuff that you can't put in, you know.
And the reality is I do a lot of frankly
self censoring upfront because I want to be responsible. There
are elements of the operations in the tradecrap that I
know were just off limits and frankly would probably be
(07:26):
boring to the reader, and so I choose to just
not not include that. So I've gotten kind of this
down after now, you know, just sent my fourth book
to them, like I've now got this down to kind
of a process and not a science, I would say,
but it moves pretty smoothly.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
A lot of the.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I'm sure that a lot of what you write about, obviously,
as we've talked about, comes from your lived experience and things,
and quite an extraordinary job. And I know that you
spent eight years covering Syria and you lived in Damascus
and things like that, has right actually been a way
for you to process maybe and deal with some of
the situations and issue you know, issues and things you've
(08:06):
hit to deal with as an analyst.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah, yeah, very much so.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
I mean, you know, the Syria experience really was the
start of this for me. You know, Syria, I worked
on it from the time when it was kind of
you know, pre civil war to them when it was
really in the thick of it.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
And that experience of just watching an entire.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Country pull itself to pieces, you know, hundreds of thousands
of people killed, the whole place shattered, you know, ninety
or so percent of the country in you know, sort
of in poverty, tens.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Of thousands of people disappeared.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
I mean, it was an experience where you feel you're
very connected to the place, and yet all the things
you're writing are kind of these strategic analyzes that are
you know, anodyne, really bureaucratically and for good reason. And
so for me, the writing when I got out was
really an attempt to try to connect, i think, to
some of the humanity of what had happened there and
(09:03):
to write stories, you know, and again I didn't start
thinking this would turn into novels, but just to kind
of rate stories that would help me process what I
had seen and experienced.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
And then it just went from there.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Did you see did you always think that this was
what you were going to do writ novels when you
left the CIA?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
When did that idea come up? Is this something you've
always been king to do?
Speaker 5 (09:27):
No, I mean, the idea actually came up sort of
embarrassingly late, I think. I mean, I left the CIA,
and I had time in between leaving and starting a
new job, and I didn't actually have to have a
job for those you know, three or four months, and
so I spent a lot of that time, pretty much
all that time writing But at no point did I
think that I would turn it into a book. It
(09:48):
was just for me really, And then you know, I
realized as I was writing that I loved the process
of writing, the input of it, just sitting down and
actually you know, spending six or eight hours putting words
down on paper. And so, you know, sort of fast
forward like five years from that, and I had this
manuscript which I thought, you know, was like maybe halfway decent,
(10:09):
but actually was terrible. I mean, it was you know,
really atrocious, like no plots, you know, totally disjointed characters,
because it was all just like a diary.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
You know.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
It's like, you know, Matthew McConaughey published his diary, but
I'm not McConaughey, So there was no market for you know,
David mccloskey's Syria diary. And but at that point, five
years on, I thought, look, I loved writing so much.
Let me see if I could turn this into something
that not only I want to write and read, but
that other people might. And so that idea came actually
(10:39):
very late, and it was years after I had left CIA.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Well that's interesting because they're so excellent. I thought maybe
you'd been right.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Well obviously you had been writing as an analyst, but
not quite like this. And I should just mention if
people want to hear a little bit more about how
you feel about what's going on in Syria at the moment.
You did cover that in your podcast The Rest Is Classified,
which which is fantastic. And let's have a little talk
about the podcast, because I've spent my summer listening to it.
It's a podcast E co host with Gordon our career
(11:11):
and you take us sort of into the mysterious world
of Spiesny Spinach, but these are actually true stories. What
is the importance to sharing these stories?
Speaker 5 (11:22):
Well, you know, I think I will say that one
of our one of Gordon's and I's kind of key
goals is, of course we're trying to entertain people with
these stories, but we are also trying to make them
as authentic as possible to the reality of the espionage business.
And so I think what we're trying to accomplish, frankly,
is to shed some light on a really misunderstood world
(11:48):
where most of us, I think, get our you know,
kind of cues or our hints about what it's like
from Hollywood, right, and I think the reality of the
business in many ways is actually far more interesting because
at the core of most of the stories we're telling,
it is just it's people who are like us, but
who happen to be in various parts of the espionage business.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Is their job either their intelligence.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Officers, you know, or they're the actual spies who have
been recruited to go and you know, give secrets. And
it's just kind of fascinating the choices that these humans
have made because they tend to be caught up in,
you know, games where the geopolitical stakes are very high,
where the personal stakes are very high, and where many
of them are sort of living in existence, where they're
(12:35):
telling one group of people one thing and another group
of people another thing, and so there's all these themes
of betrayal and deception that kind of infuse the stories. So,
you know, it's frankly just the case that there's a
lot of material out there, right, and we do believe
that even people who are not you know, maybe they're
not reading spy thrillers regularly, we do believe that they'll
(12:58):
be interested in these stories because at the heart of
them are just really interesting people.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Absolutely, you would all concerned for the sacred Service and
President Trump.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Yeah, you know, I think I am.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
I am trying to, I think maintain kind of a
cautious hope that there will be more smoke than fire
and that the headlines that we're seeing that a lot
of the kind of concern won't really translate into an
effect on the CIS mission. I mean, when I talk
to people who are on the inside, who were there
(13:36):
for the first Trump administration, have been there, you know
since I left, they would tell you that there was
you know, really almost no disruption to the cias Court
mission over the course of that you know, time that
the CI just kind of runs and there's bluster and
you know, politicking, you know, a sort of the thirty
thousand foot level, but not really when you get down
(13:57):
to what's happening inside CIA. You know, I think the
buyouts that have been offered kind of strike me as
maybe not the best idea, in large part because it's
just not really focused.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
You know. I think it's probably the.
Speaker 5 (14:10):
Case that in any massive organization there are efficiencies to
be had of just you know, jobs, people, roles, etc.
That either need to be moved or maybe don't need
to be there. But you've got to be really targeted
about that kind of stuff. And so I really do
hope that again more smoke than fire, and I'm sort
of cautiously hopeful that that will be the case in
Trump two point zero, as it was the first time around.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
David just finally, you know, I read the books and
I love them, and it reflects sort of current day espionage.
I listen to the podcast and some of those stories
are historical espionage stories, and I wonder has the trade
actually sort of changed that much over the years, or
is it or a spy still essentially doing the same thing,
(14:56):
maybe just with some bitter tech.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Yeah, yeah, well I think I think the answer is
busy yes to both of those things. I think that
the trade has changed significantly because basically a combination of
you know, cameras, biometrics, sensors everywhere, plus dirt cheap storage,
plus analytic tools to make sense of all that information,
(15:20):
many of which are AI powered. All of that means
that the fundamental kind of trade craft of how you
go through an operation to let's say, recruit somebody and
run them in Moscow or Beijing or Damascus or wherever,
that's totally different now, right, So it has changed. It's
also true that you know, secrets that you know, maybe
(15:43):
in the past were not digital. They were physical. It
was paper, it was in people's heads. There's now a
lot more digitally to be stolen. Right, So there's there
are kind of, you know, i'd say, massive changes to
the overall business. That said, I think it's still true
that having a really well placed human source, you know,
(16:04):
be they in the Kremlin with access to the Vladimir
Putin or b they Inassa's presidential palace, or you know,
from the Russian standpoint, you think about my book The
Seventh Floor, on the seventh floor at CIA's headquarters at Langley.
You know, having an agent or asset in those roles
is still an absolutely unique and extremely valuable thing for
(16:28):
a foreign intelligence service to have, and I don't think
the value of that is going away. I think that
it's getting more expensive to do that. I think it's
getting harder to do that, but it's still exceptionally valuable.
So a lot of the old school espionage stories that
we're doing on the POD, I think actually do have
present day kind of analogs or you know, relevant implications
(16:49):
because you know, you think one story we just did recently,
Adolf Tolkachev, the spy in Moscow at the height of
the Cold War. We would kill to have an Adolf
Tolkachev today embedded in Moscow in kind of key defense
industries in Moscow telling us everything about what the Russians
are developing for the next twenty years. We would love
to have that today, So it's still very relevant.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
The biggest names from the Sunday session great chats with
Francesca Rudkin on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
A'd be that was David McCloskey. I was really thrilled
to get him on the show. He's in huge demand
these days and fast becoming a superstar thriller writer, largely
because he gets it so right.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And that's just not my opinion.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Is that is from former CIA staff who say his
books are the best account of CIA life. Hey, look,
if you're a fan of the character Artemis Proctor like
I am, David confirmed to me after the interview she
is not in book four, but she is back for
book five, so that's good news. So his latest book
is called The Seventh Floor and the podcast we spoke
(17:50):
about is The Rest is Classified. Morgana O'Reilly is a
very talented Key actress who starred in films such as Bookworm,
house Bound, TV shows, Neighbors, Friends Like Her, Mean Mums,
and now the latest series of The White Lotus, which
is quite a big deal. We chatted the day before
the series was released in New Zealand, so I started
(18:12):
by asking her how excited she was ahead of the release.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Oh, my gosh, I'm excited.
Speaker 7 (18:18):
I'm probably not the same kind of excited as everybody else.
Because obviously I'm a little bit scared. I can't just
watch it the way I have the last two seasons
be like yay. I'm like, oh gosh, okay, there's me No,
but I'm really excited. It will be the full circle,
you know, from the first audition and then ah, there's
(18:40):
been so many kind of big wins and flag post
moments along the way. It'll be a really it'll bookend
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And yeah, I have seen the first two episodes. I
don't think you've got anything to be scared about. Tell
us a little bit about your character, Pam.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Oh my goodness, you've seen the first look.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
You've seen more than I have.
Speaker 7 (19:05):
I haven't even seen the first two evers. She is
a health butler. She is Australian. She is she's assigned
to assist the Ratless Ratless family, who are headed by
Jason Isaacs and Park Posey and their three children. Yes,
(19:28):
so she organizes their wellness routine.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I don't want I don't want to tell anyone anything
about it because it's just so much fun watching everything unfold.
But this show is it's quite out there. It's a
little bit mad. What was it like being on set filming.
Speaker 7 (19:47):
It well, on set was really it was great, and
that felt that felt like a normal I was. I
felt really a comfortable in that space actually on set
and we're in these beautiful, beautiful hotels and locations on
(20:09):
these beaches and things like that, and sometimes you just
feel like, I mean, it's just daunting the kind of
juggernauts in which you're working with, you know, like the
the welcome scene when you've got likele Lisa from Black Pink,
She's just hanging around. She's so lovely and so sweet
(20:29):
and kind and humble. I have no idea that she's
basically Beyonce. I mean, like, yeah, it was a lot,
I tell you what, it was great. It was a
lot of things, a lot of feelings fluctuating between who
so glad I'm here too, I don't belong here and
I can't bear this, to be honest.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
The hotel is insane you were living Is it right
that you were living there? I'm sure you mentioned that
to us before you were living there while you were filming.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
Yeah, yeah, so like we had, they were all living
and working at the Four Seasons in Kossimoi. So it
was like a really amazingly beautiful retirement home with lots
of young and healthy people who have lots of money.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
All cast and crew.
Speaker 7 (21:19):
So it's glorious, how idyllic. And then we also shot
and pouquette at a couple of different places there, and
so we'd often live and work in the in the hotel.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I wonder if it's ruined you a little bit that,
you know, you get an acting gig which also just
happens to be in a you know, in this incredible
sort of hotel resort. Next time someone puts you up,
you're going to be a bit like, oh is this that?
Speaker 5 (21:41):
I know?
Speaker 7 (21:42):
It's so bad? I mean, you don't I need to
I need to sometimes check how much I talk about it,
because I kin didn't sort of even click that at
a certain level of hotel, it would be crazy not
to have your own private pool.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I'm like, what you get one of those? Oh now
I can't go back. I have to share.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It wasn't relaxing having your family. I know that you're
family came up at one point, and I think the
kids came as well. Was it relaxing having them there?
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Or it was so wonderful?
Speaker 7 (22:11):
But then you know, like it was actually and I
was wonderful to have them there because a my husband,
you know, he's a director, so it was really cool
for him to because we're working in this space. So
it was this amazing hotel, but it was also an
active film set, which is just like an absolute treat
when you're in this industry because you get to go
(22:32):
to a hotel, but you get to also like, you know,
I'll be swimming in the pool, but over there is
second unit just filming a couple of cutaway shots of
some things that can catch you, like beautiful foliage and
the ocean, things like that, so you get to sort
of see a film crew over there, or you know,
the kids will be playing madly in the pool, in
(22:53):
the big shared pool with the other kids from the crew,
and then you know a third, fourth or first ad
would run down frantically and go please be quiet, please
be quiet, because they're filming, like oogiez.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yeah, it was great.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So great our screen industry here in New Zealand, it's amazing.
But was it quite a different experience to other shows
you've worked on when you get to work on something,
you know, a smash a show like this, yes.
Speaker 7 (23:23):
Yes, well no, I mean it's a multifaceted answer. I
guess my point of view being on set is I
felt really prepared.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
For that bit, which was good.
Speaker 7 (23:35):
But then of course the resources in other areas was
definitely a lot greater than I had experienced before. I
also think, you know, to clarify, the New Zealand industry
is kind of multifaceted as well. There is an international
film industry that comes and shoots in New Zealand that
(23:57):
often hires New Zealand crew and a smattering the bare
minimum New Zealand cast. And then there is the New
New Zealand TV and film industry which scrapes by as
much as I can and dare I say, is really
on struggle street at the moment to make stuff. So
(24:18):
whether you're you might be shooting something in New Zealand,
but there can be leagues apart, whether you're shooting the
Luminaries versus something for SPP, so it's profoundly different.
Speaker 6 (24:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
How big a break for you is this? Career wise?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Are you bracing yourself a potential exposure? I mean, we've
always known that you're brilliant here, but you know, this
is sort of on a global scale, isn't it MORGANA, I.
Speaker 7 (24:46):
Don't know, you know what, Like it's still it feels
like a it feels like I'm on a big cruise ship.
It's moving slow and steady and strongly.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I'm currently you know, the lead.
Speaker 7 (25:03):
In a six part thrillers Areas for Paramount, which heaven,
and I was essentially offered that role, and I don't
think that that would have happened.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
In that way without this behind me, which is which
is great.
Speaker 7 (25:18):
And then once it comes out, you know, I have
sort of bracing myself for many different realities and all
of which I can deal with, all of which I'm
happy for. There's a chance that I kind of get
Nobody really pays too much attention. There's so many carts,
so many characters, and so maybe it's just a really
(25:41):
great thing on my CV and it gives me a
little bit more money in the world, you know, and
makes it easier for other productions to get people to
give them money to make it because they can say, well,
we've got more Ganner and she's been in White Lotus,
so that's nice to help out other things.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Who knows.
Speaker 7 (26:01):
Also, like I could get absolutely ripped apart online.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
I don't know, I.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Repair of a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
I don't think that's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
But that's really interesting what you say that there's lots
of little silver linings, isn't it That might not be obvious.
You're not necessarily going, oh yeah, it's going to be great.
You know, people are going to recognize me more and
know who I am, and it's going to be easy
to get jobs. Is actually it can actually trickle down
in lots of different ways and can be really grateful
previous shows that you've been a part of as well,
you know, bringing them to light again.
Speaker 7 (26:29):
That's a real that warms my heart majorly with all
that you know, I'm going to go up to the
premier year and all this stuff. I think, and maybe
this is the key we in me, but at a
certain point things feel really indulgent and they feel like
I'm vying for the spotlight that I don't deserve. But
the you know, the oxytocin countenance to that quartersole spike
(26:55):
is that it lifts up everybody and everything that I
am currently working on and have work done, and.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
So that feels nice.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
That's great. Let's do that.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Tell me a little bit about what you are doing
in Australia this at the moment.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
I'm doing a series called Playing Gracie Darling and it's oh,
it's so cool, and especially because I just if I
saw this synopsis, I was I would be so all
aboard because it's a mystery series, thriller but with a
little bit of smattering of ghost story spookiness, like there's
(27:32):
it's a bit scary, not in a horror movie sense,
but in a thriller sense. So it's a bit Mayor
of East Town.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
It's a bit sharp objects.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
But nice ohasty stuff and some like flashbacks to the
late nineties.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Oh yeah, come home so good.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
And look, just before you go, I want to touch
base with you on where Stories about My Body is at,
because we've spoken to you about that before turning it
into a film.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
I know that there's been a bit of crowdfunding going.
Have you had any time to work on that at all?
Speaker 7 (28:05):
Oh, my goodness, were so close to finishing the edit
and it's going to go into post production and there
is music being made. There is all these wheels in motion,
which like that something like that, which has been such
an art baby, not just for me but for my
husband and all the people that are involved are our
(28:27):
friends and dear creatives who have given their time and
energy and incredible talents. So it's really close to being
a little finished and then who knows, then we have
to find somewhere to put it.
Speaker 8 (28:42):
But yes, this.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Year, I reckon. Oh look, one step at a time.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Can you do me a favored MORGANA when you turn
up at that premiere, can you just say, oh, hi,
I'm MORGANA and I deserve to be here.
Speaker 7 (28:54):
Oh, Kyota, Yes, I will, I will, I'll be I'll
be clutching my pearls looking around the room.
Speaker 6 (29:02):
And I to be here.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
I'm MORGANA. And Hi, Jennifer Cool.
Speaker 7 (29:08):
It's nice to bet your Bookhanna, and I deserve to
be here.
Speaker 6 (29:11):
It's not my last name.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
You need to work you need to work on that.
But look, hey, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
It's always really great to catch up with you and
look forward to catching up with you throughout the year.
Speaker 7 (29:23):
Thanks men.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Jessica bringing you the best interviews from the Sunday session.
Great chats with Francesca Rudkin on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
At be Always love catching up with MORGANA. Really great
to hear how well she is doing. She is I
think going to be one of our biggest exports. She
seems to be working everywhere in New Zealand and Australia
and in the States or Thailand, wherever it may be.
And I'm so thrilled for her because she has been
working extremely hard for a long time now. She deserves
all the success coming her way. And we're going to
(29:56):
end today on an interview that we got a huge
amount of feedback on. Jake Baiy is a cancer survivor,
a positive psychology graduate, an author, and an international speak
on resilience, and he is twenty seven. He joined us
to talk about his new book, The Comeback Code, and
we started by talking about his cancer diagnosis he got
when he was in year thirteen at high school. So
(30:18):
I started by asking Jake whether he can put into
words what it is like to be told you have
two weeks to live.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
It's a funny one.
Speaker 8 (30:27):
That's a question which I often get actually, particularly when
I work with young people and students. I think that
you know, for them, they probably heard a little bit
of my story and maybe find themselves trying to picture
what that could or would be like and as I
often tell them, it's a great question with a really
really boring answer, unfortunately, which is that it feels like
(30:47):
not a huge amount. It kind of wasn't necessarily any
of the things which you would expect to feel. I
wasn't angry or upset or scared or afraid or maybe
any of those things which had instinctively expected to be.
Speaker 6 (30:58):
Like, it felt like not a huge amount.
Speaker 8 (31:02):
And maybe if there was anything, there was probably a
little bit of a sense of wanting to crack it
and get started. I knew that, you know, the only
way to get through was going to be going through
the treatment, going through the chemotherapy, and coming out the
other side, and so there was maybe a little bit
of a sense of wanting to get on with it.
But yeah, it doesn't, in my case at least kind
of feel like a huge amount.
Speaker 6 (31:24):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I mean, you don't do things by halves, do you.
I mean, it was quite a diagnosis. As you say
in the book, you were the usane bolt of dying.
Speaker 8 (31:32):
That's yeah, a bold claim to make it, particularly without
broader context around it.
Speaker 6 (31:37):
I suppose, but it's yeah, it was.
Speaker 8 (31:40):
It was a very aggressive, very very aggressive and fast
growing full of cancer, and you know, I'm incredibly fortunate
and privileged in many ways, but he's first.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
Of all to have had access to treatment.
Speaker 8 (31:53):
Secondly to have had the opportunity to be treated by
and kid for by an incredible medical team here in
christ Church, and then third to have been really fortunate
and really privileged to have I guess, survived it and
been able to come out the other side and make
it out and continue.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
To move on in life.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
So how has having cancer changed you?
Speaker 6 (32:13):
Look?
Speaker 8 (32:13):
I mean, there's probably so many ways that it would
be easier to list the things which it hasn't changed
as much as that is a cliche, but I think
probably at its core, I guess the resilience was the
main thing that I took away from the cancer. I think,
particularly as a young person, you know, going into the cancer,
being eighteen, where in the weeks and months prior to
(32:34):
the diagnosis I've been worried, worrying about these very average,
regular kind of teenage things like you know, bad exam results,
or not making sports teams I've tried for, or having
fallouts with mates, or being self conscious, as I think
we all are when we're that age.
Speaker 6 (32:50):
And then to come through the cancer, to come out the.
Speaker 8 (32:52):
Other side three months later and to have I guess
some skills or tools or strategies around resilience which I've
learned from going through the cancer, which had fundamentally changed
how I felt about life. I mean, I came out
and I was no longer kind of wighed down or
bogged down by a lot of these things which previously
had been quite a burden or had caused me a
(33:15):
lot of I guess, anxiety and worry as a young person.
Speaker 6 (33:18):
And yeah, I think it's core.
Speaker 8 (33:20):
I mean, that's probably been the biggest change that's allowed
me to be a i'd like to say, a happier, optimistic,
more grateful person after the cancer than I was beforehand.
Speaker 6 (33:31):
And I think it's core.
Speaker 8 (33:32):
You know, the basis for that in any of those things,
that optimism, that that happiness, all of those positive things
comes from having learned to be more resilient. And I
guess that's where my passion for resilience comes from.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Let's talk about this passion. Can we better equip people
to deal with challenge and challenges life rose at them?
We can we train ourselves to be more resilient?
Speaker 8 (33:54):
Absolutely, unequivocally yes, and you know, that's not my opinion.
That's the research, that's the evidence, That is what we
can see. And I think, you know, there's something quite
empowering about the knowledge of that is well, I think
knowing that we can get better and be better at
getting through tough times allows us to feel a little
bit less untethered.
Speaker 6 (34:16):
During those tough times in adversity. The knowledge that we.
Speaker 8 (34:18):
Can learn to be better at getting through this challenge
makes us feel as though we have some sort of
control and direction over what we go through.
Speaker 6 (34:26):
And I guess how we deal with it.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
And I think that there's something quite empowering about that
understanding in itself that a big part of learning to
be more resilient, a big part of learning to be
better at getting through tough times, is actually going through
those tough times. And I think that that knowledge allows
you to meet adversity and challenge with the attitude of
it being I guess a training ground or looking to
(34:47):
take something away from it, looking to come out the
other side more resilient and improved by it.
Speaker 6 (34:52):
And I think that's kind of I guess, empowering in itself.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, let's talk about the four S model. I really
like this model. The first s is slow down and
this is possibly one of my favorites because I think
you can actually put it into play in day today life.
It's the idea of breaking big things down into small,
manageable chunks.
Speaker 8 (35:13):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, And I think that you know something
which is relevant and applicable to I guess resilience into
getting through adversity. And I should stress as well that
all of this is you know, evidence and research based
and it's not you know me sort of hypothesizing or
or proplytizing on things which I think are great or cooler,
things which have worked for me or helped me get
through challenges in life.
Speaker 6 (35:33):
You know, these are things which we know.
Speaker 8 (35:34):
For a fact make people better at getting through tough times,
make people more resilient. So when it comes to slowing down, yeah,
the idea of breaking things up into more manageable, bite
sized pieces. This is not something which we just apply
to challenge in adversity in life.
Speaker 5 (35:48):
You know.
Speaker 8 (35:48):
This is how we get through anything. So is how
we get through a task. This is how we I guess,
break down goals and work towards things that we want
to achieve. This is kind of you know, if you
go to the gym' You know, I don't, but I'm
reliably informed that you break your work down into sort
of sets and reps, right, I've been told by people.
You know, I do a bit of running, and I
(36:09):
know that for me, when I go for a run,
I'm mentally breaking it down into you know, kilometers at
a time, or blocks of five k's at a time,
whatever it may be, because it makes it a whole
lot easier than trying to approach it as one big,
single book.
Speaker 6 (36:20):
Single lump sum.
Speaker 8 (36:21):
And you know, I can pull out a million different
examples of that from you know, cooking and recipes to
so on and so forth, but it's core.
Speaker 6 (36:28):
I think it's something which is.
Speaker 8 (36:29):
Irrelevant and applicable to going through tough times as well.
You know, it works better when you take it on
whatever sized pieces you can manage, whether that's a month
at a time, a week at a time, a day
at a time, an hour at a time. I know
for all of your listeners, they will have gone through
challenge and adversity and suffering over the course of their lifetime,
and they would have found themselves in moments where the
sort I don't know how I'm going.
Speaker 6 (36:49):
To get through this this week, you know, this day,
that hour, this this whatever I have to go through.
Speaker 8 (36:55):
And so the answer is generally you just try and
break it down into a smaller piece and continually take
those off one after another.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
The second is is salvage.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And I know that this is one of your favorites,
that something positive can come out of adversity. How important
do you think a sense of humor is when dealing
with the advances.
Speaker 8 (37:14):
I make a sense of humor as povotal really and
again the research and evidence seems to suggest it this.
You know, there's some really fascinating research and evidence which
which shows that young people who come from families that
utilize humor as a coping mechanism or a coping strategy
during adversity, during tough times go on to create young
people who are I guess, far more resilient and robust
(37:37):
and well adjusted later on in life. You know, if
you can learn that during tough times things don't have
to be completely binary, that things are not you know,
if if something is bad, it doesn't mean.
Speaker 6 (37:47):
It has to be all bad.
Speaker 8 (37:48):
If you can get into this mindset that there can
be you know, silver lightings or good within the darkness
or you know, sorry, light within the darkness are good
within the bad. Then I think you puts you in
a position where you're better able to approach adversity not
so much as an enemy or a challenge, but instead
to be able to to deliberately seek out some of
these positive things. And you're on that note of humor again,
(38:12):
this is sort of what humor is at its core
when it comes to getting through adversity. If you can
find something to laugh at during a tough time, that
really is the you know, the ultimate and salvaging. If
you can take some livity, if you can take some lightness,
if you can take some humor away from a tough time,
then the research shows that it really helps people gets through.
And you know, it's very easy to talk about, you know,
research and evidence and so on and so forth, but
(38:33):
I think you know, if people, if you're listeners, if
you know someone who worked particularly and I like giving
the example of nursing because I've spent a bit of
time with nurses, and when you do, you come to
find that they have exceptionally dark, but incredibly well refined,
fantastic senses of humor, and they do that because it
allows them to get through.
Speaker 6 (38:53):
It's you know, they find.
Speaker 8 (38:53):
Themselves in a lot of situations whether it's either a
laugh or cry moment, and you know, when your options
are those two, there's nothing wrong with the former, but
I think kind of ninety percent of the time you
feel you feel better with the latter. It applies to
I think anyone in a high pressure, high stakes profession,
whether it's police or fieries or even teachers. I think
a lot of the time these people who operate in
(39:15):
these stressful environs naturally gravitate towards utilizing humor because it works.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Your third s is streamline, and that is the idea
of sort of minimizing and containing those everyday anxieties and
fears we have. And look, I know that this book
is written for everybody, young or old, but I'm going
to be honest with you as a mother who's just
sent one kut off to university, and a whole lot
of friends who are in that sort of same process
and things, and we're watching the way our young adults
(39:43):
are adapting to this new sort of stage in life.
Speaker 6 (39:46):
I really did.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I read this book feeling like it it sort of
can't drop out of the scar into my lap at
the perfect moment. It feels to me like a resource
which is very much going to resonate with younger people.
I think it's about the way. It's the way you
talk in the book, and about the contributors that you
talk to. But there's a lot of talk about life
(40:07):
at school, the pressures on teenagers to plan out their lives,
to fit in, to find your thing, but not every
teenager knows that are we focusing on the wrong things
when it comes to growing happy, resilient, grounded young adults.
Speaker 8 (40:22):
It's funny, it's a great question. Are we focusing on
the wrong things? And in some ways potentially in other
ways I guess maybe not, which is really roundabout kind
of answer, But to sort of expand upon that, I think, yeah,
the way that young people are increasingly encouraged to begin
to hyper specialize in fields of studying education earlier and
(40:44):
earlier is creating an expectation for young people that they
ought to have their life planned out by the time
that they're about thirteen or fourteen years old. And I
think often when I present to parents and communities around this,
there's a sense that I might be kind of utilizing
hyperbole to make a point here when I'm genuinely not.
You know, a lot of the time, our schools are
(41:05):
expecting students to have sort of a relatively clear idea
on what they want to do by the time they're
kind of thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old, because the expectation
is you will begin to choose subjects based on what
you want to do during your senior important years of
high school. I suppose, based on what you want to
do when you leave school, based on what you want
to do for the rest of your life. And again,
(41:26):
if that sounds like hyperbole, it probably is just a
reflection of how much the education system has changed then
some of your listeners than it was for when some
of your listeners went through that experience. And I think,
as I say in the book, you know, I've been told,
as we all have many times, that you know, the
world is your oyster when you're young, and you've got
(41:47):
so many options and opportunities ahead of you, which is,
you know, a fantastic thing and.
Speaker 6 (41:51):
A real blessing for us if you're in that position.
Speaker 8 (41:55):
But at the same time, you know, for me, looking
back on my time at school, I think I recall
that feeling a lot less kind of empowering or exciting
and feeling a lot more sort of daunting and frightening.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
And again it's worth reflecting on the fact that you know,
for young.
Speaker 8 (42:10):
People today, if they're told that, or if they're in
that position, there are incredibly fortunate as I was, to
have the privilege of opportunity ahead of them, because there's
a lot of people around the world, and there's a
lot of people even within you know, within our society
and communities who don't necessarily have that. But at the
same time, I think it creates a level of anxiety
for our young people because it's a daunting prospect and there.
Speaker 6 (42:32):
Is a focus and an increasing focus.
Speaker 8 (42:35):
On our young people doing that earlier and earlier, which
I don't think is quite helpful.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
And the final S is stand alongside. And the basic
message here is you don't need to climb that mountain alone.
You know, ask for help, accept help.
Speaker 6 (42:50):
Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think that that's relatively intuitive.
Speaker 8 (42:54):
And actually I should say as well, I hope that
you know, for you and for your listeners, most of
these four s's are kind of relatively intuitive. I think
that you know, as I present to communities or businesses
and organizations around this. Often when I present around this,
I talk to the audience afterwards and people say, you know,
this really rung a bell for me. That's really resonated
(43:16):
with me. These are things which I've utilized. These are
things which I've used in my life. My response to
which is great because it probably means that you're a
relatively resilient, well adjusted adult, and that you've gone through
challenge and adversity over the course of your lifetime. You've
naturally come towards these skills or strategies. You've gravitated towards
(43:37):
these because they work, You've learned them, you've retained them,
and you've continued to use them. But there's two things
to note about that, I guess One for our adults,
it's important, I think sometimes to be able to put
names or concepts to some of these, or I guess
words to some of these concepts, or even put some
further information and research and evidence behind things which people
(43:58):
intuitively or naturally do.
Speaker 6 (44:00):
I've chatted to a few people who've.
Speaker 8 (44:01):
Read the book who have said, you know, it's quite
empowering to understand why these things which I've lent on
over the course of my lifetime work for me and
kind of what I can do to expand and grow
upon those. But two, I think it's important to note
as well that you know, these are not things which,
as young people we are born with.
Speaker 6 (44:19):
They're not sort of in built.
Speaker 8 (44:20):
We didn't come out of the womb with these skills
or strategies already within us. If they sound familiar to you,
it's because, as I say, you've learned them through blood
and sweet and tears. You've earned them before our young
people we have the capacity, we have the opportunity to,
I guess, prepare them better now before they go out
into the world for the challenges and challenges that they
(44:40):
will face.
Speaker 6 (44:40):
We know that these things work.
Speaker 8 (44:42):
We know that they're teachable, tainable, trainable, and entertainable. There's
things which we can which we can equip our young
people with now, hopefully at a stage of life with
the adversity and challenge that they're facing is not too significant,
but certainly before they get out into the big wide
world and things start coming at you pretty fast as
they as they kind of tend to for all of
(45:03):
us in life. Because you know, I never have adversity
is it's kind of one of those inevitabilities of the
world ahead of us.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
You know, they see death taxes, yea, yeah, death different Texas.
Speaker 8 (45:13):
They sort of both fall under that adversity kind of
kind of bracket.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
You'd think, Hey, yeah, totally Look Jake, before you go,
I've just got to ask, did I just see a
picture of you in Antarctica wearing shorts?
Speaker 4 (45:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (45:25):
Yeah, you might have seen that actually as well, which
which if you did, it probably means that the Health
and Safety manager is going to be on the phone
to me very shortly, because I'm not sure, not kind
of sure whether that was was in the briefing or not.
Speaker 5 (45:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (45:39):
I've just been really fortunate to spend some time down
in Antarctica with an incredible organization called the Antarctic Heritage Trust,
who manage and preserve and conserve all of the history
down there, all of their hearts and the artifacts from
the heroic age of exploration down there. And it's really, yeah,
very incredibly privileged and fortunate to have the opportunity to
spend some time down there with their work and to
(46:01):
I guess learn a little bit more about some of
the resilience of those incredible early polar explorers as well.
Speaker 6 (46:06):
You know, the Shackletons, the Scots.
Speaker 8 (46:08):
The stories sort of will be incredibly familiar to many
of your listeners, I'm sure, and it was a great
opportunity to learn a little bit more about I guess
what allowed them to get through.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
And another one of our listeners would like to know
how old you are?
Speaker 2 (46:20):
They like, who was this incredibly articulate, incredibly articulate young man.
Speaker 6 (46:25):
How old hi am? That's very kind. I'm twenty seven.
Speaker 8 (46:29):
But I've spent a lot of time talking over the
past few years. So if I hadn't have picked up
a few tips and tricks by now, you'd probably think
I was a relatively slow learner. I've had a bit
of practice talking about this stuff, to be fair, and
fifteen year olds can throw some pretty left of field
questions your way, so you get relatively quick at thinking.
Speaker 6 (46:46):
On your feet when you work with schools. But I
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
The best guest from the Sunday session Great Jazz with
Francesca rudget on iHeartRadio powered by News Talks, it'd be.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
That was Jake Bailey and look, I really meant it
when I said I felt like this book landed in
my lap at the right moment. If you do have
a young adult in the house, I think this is
an credible reasours for them and written by someone young
enough to remember high school and the transitional years after
and understands all the emotions and worries and precious teenagers
go through. I got a lot out of it too,
but it has definitely been passed around our house and appreciated.
(47:21):
The book is called The Comeback Code. Thanks for joining
me on this News Talks They'd Be podcast. Please feel
free to share these chats, and if you liked this podcast,
make sure you follow us on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts. Don't forget we release a new episode
of Great Chats on the last Thursday of every month.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks They'd Be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com