Allyson Gofton: Food writer and cookbook author on copying recipes, the dispute between Nagi Maehashi and Brooke Bellamy

Can you copyright a recipe?  

Two Australian cookbook authors are clashing over claims of plagiarised recipes. 

Nagi Maehashi, who runs the popular food blog RecipeTin Eats, says influencer Brooke Bellamy's new cookbook ‘Bake with Brooki’ contains uncannily similar ingredients, quantities, and instructions for a caramel slice and baklava.  

Food writer and cookbook Author Allyson Gofton told Kerre Woodham that since baking doesn’t differ that much on a basic level, where copyright would come into the argument would be in the method and how it’s written.  

She says that unless the text is copied word for word, it would be very hard to prove, especially for classics like baklava.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carry Wood. In morning's podcast from
news Talks, he'd b.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
I was really interested to read about the two Australian
cookbook authors who are in a big dispute overclaimed plagiarism
of recipes therefore recipes of caramel Slice and baklava. Nagi
Mahashi behind the popular food blog recipe Tin Eats, which
is fantastic, and who's got great cookbooks? I know exactly
who she is, says influencer brook Bellamy's new cookbook Bake

(00:35):
with Brookie. Don't know her contains uncannily similar ingredients, quantities
and instructions. Well, of course it would wouldn't it isn't
a caramel slice? Of caramel Slice? Can a recipe, especially
a classic, ever be copyrighted. I'm joined by food writer
and cookbook author Alison gofton good morning to you.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Hi Kerry, how are you?

Speaker 2 (00:58):
I'm very very well, thank you. I always thought the
thing about food is that you share. You share food
that has made you share recipes. People say that's amazing,
you know, how did you do that? So you share
the recipe? But I guess cookbooks are big money. They're
big sellers in any country, so you've got to have

(01:19):
a point of difference. Can a recipe be copyrighted?

Speaker 4 (01:25):
It's a really good question, actually, and I think it's
probably an indicator of the times we are in because
in the past we did share. When I work at
The Woman's Weekly, We're going back years now, we used
to have a section called the Red Ribbon Readers Recipe
and people would send in their favorite recipes and we'd
often get our own recipes sent back to us.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Some years later.

Speaker 4 (01:44):
We'd be able to find them, and we did share,
and on the odd occasion where I wanted to use
a recipe from a fellow chef, I've always got written
permission from them.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
In particular, I recall Peter Gordon, who is always generous
to share his ideas.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
What I think is happening is that they're now looking
online money out of it, and it's becoming far more
a business game, and the Americans are really litigious at
the best of times.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
So can you copyright a recipe?

Speaker 4 (02:12):
Well, it's really interesting because in baking, baking is a
chemical formula that's based on the way to the protein,
the carbohydrate and the sugars and things, and so a
basic butter cake is a basic butter cake. Where the
copyright often comes in is in the way you write
your method. So you know, one hundred and twenty five

(02:33):
grams could be a cup of flour. It could be
four ounces, for example. And so while you might vary
how the ingredients are, a classic baklava is always going
to have hazel nuts or walnuts. It's going to have
a layer of filo in the middle. It's going to
have lots of butter and lots of sugar syrup. How
you alter that, I have no idea, because the basic

(02:53):
is a basin.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
But where the copyright.

Speaker 4 (02:55):
Comes in in an argument would be in the method
and how you have written that. And so when you
might like to take an idea from somebody, you must
change it by thirty percent. So that's always the rule
of thumb that I've worked he And the reason.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
I can say that is even in books that I have.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
Published, if I moved to a different publisher, I don't
own the rights to my own work in the format
that they were originally published in.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
A but like Taylor Swift where she had to re record,
she had to re record her own.

Speaker 4 (03:29):
Songs absolutely, so I had to rewrite my own work
and make it thirty percent different from a book that
I had published under a different publisher. And so that's
that's just the art of the copyright law. But to
get upset that somebody has maybe copied or been influenced
by you, I'd take it as a compliment that somebody

(03:49):
has liked it. It's always nice if you can give credit,
But in giving credit, you're also stating that you've copied.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
So people don't do that, you see.

Speaker 4 (03:58):
So basically I don't know unless it's word for word,
it would be very hard to prove it, especially in
classics like an anzac biscuits, like a backler, like a
sponge cake.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
It is what it is.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
It's like like if I do like in anzac biscuits,
I like putting in dried cranberries and pumpkin seeds or
sunflower seeds or something. But that's I haven't invented a
brand new recipe. The whole glorious joy of the anzac
biscuit is the hokey pokey aspect of the of the

(04:36):
golden syrup and the butter and the baking soda and
the rolled.

Speaker 4 (04:40):
Oats and what's happened with the communication world that we
now live in is that what you publish today is
available for somebody else to snitch take copy in America
on the other side of the world the next day,
where once upon a time that didn't exist. It was
literally only handwritten and given to a girlfriend. Then it
was handwritten, it will put into a published in a book,

(05:00):
then maybe it made itself to television or radio, then
a magazine. But now with the meat industry the way
it is, everybody can put anything out and of course
if you're making money out of it, somebody's bound to go, oh,
that's mine. And so I suppose in essence, it's very
hard to copyright.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
It has to be word perfect for someone to actually
claim that they've taken my work.

Speaker 4 (05:29):
If you've been foolish enough, absolutely foolish enough to copy
somebody's work and not written it in your style. And
everybody has a style, and a publishing house would have
an approved style, that's you being stupid and not dotting
your eyes and crossing your t's as a professional.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
But I mean, she's put this recime tots who I
do like. I do like her recipes. She's very sensible.
They're both assies, these ones. She's put the caramel slice
side by side, and it's not exactly the same. I mean,
it's the same ingredients and the same method. But then
of course it would be for a caramel slice, you know.

(06:09):
So she's put place butter, sugar, and vanilla in a
saucepanova medium low heat. When the butter is melted, whisked
to combined with sugar, then just leave until it comes
to a simmer. That's her one, the one she claims
is plagiarizing. Her says, place the butter, sugar and vanilla
in a sauce spinover medium heat, stir continuously until the
mixture starts to swimmer. That's not word for you.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
She could probably have a crack at me because I'm
sure I've.

Speaker 4 (06:31):
Written for that before as well, Because that's what you do,
and the only thing you could say would be over
a low heat and in a saucepan put the butter
sugar and wait until it's softened or melted. I mean,
how many ways do you write it? You just cannot
write it sensibly, accurately and with perfect instruction for somebody
to copy you for something you know, to follow you

(06:55):
without it being so simple. So you know, I think
it comes down to she's taking my money. I could
have made more, I could have got more influences. I'd
be taking it as a compliment that something that you
have put out there ahead of somebody else has been
picked up and has loved and I wouldn't complain. I'd
take it, as I say, as a compliment.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Lovely to talk as always. That is Alison Gofton talking
about the Nasty spat. There's heat in the kitchen between
recipes and eats and baking with Brockie.

Speaker 3 (07:27):
You know.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
I mean, people buy cookbooks because they like the person
who is selling the cookbook. Like I always went to
go to cooks who write cookbooks because their style suited me.
Whenever I did them, they turned out brilliantly. Others preferred
other cooks. I wasn't going there for brand new recipes.

(07:52):
I accept that they were all, you know, pretty much
of a muchness, especially when it comes to baking. It
was just their personality. I liked the way they'd set
out the book, the photographs and the like.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
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