October 24, 2024 • 11 mins
More than 30 staff at Waitākere Hospital refused to care for a racially abusive patient in a bid to get hospital managers to defuse the situation.
The male patient had asked for white-only staff, making racist and sexual remarks over a period of six weeks.
Their drastic action prompted hospital managers to escalate their response and defuse the situation.
New Zealand Nurses Organisation delegate Ben Basevi told Kerre Woodham he thinks management was out of touch, and didn’t come down to see what was happening when complaints started arising.
He said that when they talked to staff about the situation, it was clear that nothing short of the cease work order was going to work.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carry wood of morning's podcast from
News Talks d B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As we were saying more than the staff at why
Targety Hospital refused to care for a rarely abusive patient
and ad to get hospital managers to defuse the situation.
The male patient had asked for white only staff and
made racist and sexual remarks over a period of six weeks.
The drastic action on the part of the staff finally
prompted hospital managers to escalate their response and diffuse the situation.
(00:34):
New Zealand Nurses Organization delegate Ben Vsseb joins me, Now,
very good morning to you, Ben.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Oh, good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Caring six weeks to get the situation resolved sounds like
appallingly poor management.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It was.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
On one hand, yes, I think the management just didn't
didn't come down and see what was actually happening. They
were sort of out of touch.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
And yet I can't imagine how bad the abuse must
be because I know and I've heard abusive staff on
a daily basis, and to a certain extent it. You know,
they don't fight every war. You know, they don't fight
every battle. They just let it wash over them and
just deal with them and are amazingly professional, even if
(01:27):
the patients aren't. I just can't imagine how bad it
would have to be for a cease work order to
finally get management.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Sort of, a cessation of work under that Health and
Safety Work Act is a large last ditch resort. When
we went down and talked to the staff, it was
obvious that nothing else is going to work for this.
It we need to sort of. It's so harmful to
the staff it needs to be dealt with immediately. That
(01:58):
was the only way to do it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
And interestingly, there is no nationwide guideline for responses to
racial discrimination. Is this part of the old DHB hang
up where each DHB responded to work situations in their
own way. There is no one set of national guidelines.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Well, I've worked in Auckland for many years and it
and currently Auckland, even under the FATA, AURA doesn't have
a policy that deals with racism. We have it is
included in the workplace violence policy, but it's just a
sort of it's a word in there is the history
(02:45):
behind it is like the we have our Patient's Code
of Rights, which is its mandate is consumer protection. It
doesn't have anything about how well a patient should behave
or not, because that's not its mandate. We have already
have a whole lot of lead that supports worker safety.
(03:08):
We've got the Health and Safety Work Act, We've got
the Health and Disability Safety Act, We've got the Human
Rights Act, Crimes Act, Victims Act. We've got a whole
lot of acts. But unfortunately organization hasn't sort of taken
bits from those and said, what do we need to
put in a racism policy so that we protect our
staff but also at the same time we comply with
(03:33):
everything we need to comply with to make that patient's
journey as good as possible.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
This is not a new problem, is it.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
No?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
No, should there be a patient's obligations charter as well
as a patient's rights charter.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
So there's been a number of submissions made to their
Health and Disability Commissioner concerned about sort of what was
perceived to be a sort of a lopsided bit of
the code because it doesn't deal with consumer responsibility. Yeah,
but the it doesn't fit in the code. It should
(04:13):
never go into the code because it'll dilute it down.
What we do need is a patient far now and
visit a code of conduct and The Commissioner has said
when when they do their five year review that there's
nothing preventing providers putting that in place, and it's a
(04:34):
really simple thing to do.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, well it should and it should be in there,
but it's so tricky because you've also got you know,
and I know there have been huge problems in ICU
where you've got a patient and ICU and the fin
No say, well, we demand to be around the bedside
because that is culturally appropriate for us to be with
him or her, and the nursing stuff is saying you
(04:59):
cannot be in here because this is a really intense
nursing situation. They say, well, this is our cultural right
and we demand the right to do so. There have
been real issues around that. There have been issues.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Around so that the code does allow for fun, how
to stay with a patient that's really sick. The intensive
care units are like our special care units, and it
is difficult because there, you know, a patient may bee
(05:31):
in a single bed space and there's lots happen, but
there's ways, there's ways to manage that. It's it's you know,
it doesn't do the hospital any any help. To have
rigid rules. You've got to be flexible because we're dealing
with people, and we're dealing with people under immense stress.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, and I get that, and and they're vulnerable and
they're frightened and what have you. But at what point
do you say this is not acceptable when it comes
what about you know, gender preference. If you say I
don't a man working on.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Me, well, well, generally sort of a female patient saying
I feel more comfortable with a female doctor is perfectly legitimate.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
It's but then why is it not legitimate?
Speaker 3 (06:21):
But we don't have enough female doctors?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But then why is it legitimate? Why is it not
then legitimate for a for a white man to say
I only want white hospital stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Well, it's it's it may in some cases it may
not be right for a person to say I only
want to be worked, I only wanted to be cared
for by a female, a female nurse or a female doctor,
et cetera, And that that can be just as discriminatory.
It's it's probably a more I don't know, it could
(06:59):
be a lesser one in a sense. But you know,
when I if I say to you, I don't want
to be looked after by anybody that's White's that's I'm
actually allowed to say that under the freedom of the
freedom of expression, and then maybe an awful but lawful
thing that I can say. But it doesn't mean that
(07:21):
the provider has to accede to that request, because to
do so would be they would then be in breach
of the human rights sect.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Well, that's exactly what north Shore Hospital did when when
they had a patient saying no Asian staff at the surgery,
they said, all right, well, do our best to find
a team that's not I mean, what when people, you know, people,
the whole concept of people having rights is all very
well and good, but where are the obligations? I mean,
you know, when you've got a hospital system, and that's
(07:51):
anywhere in the world, there are people from all over
the world, thank god, who are working in them and
who are doing their best to provide the best possible cares.
So once you start picking and choosing your staff in
a public health system, it's going to fall over for
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Okay? So I personally think that there's about three main
reasons why we have this sort of performance gap, and
that's one. The first one is that the provider is
fearful of repercussions that may affect its reputation. It doesn't
want to be branded in the media as being racist
or whatever, which unfortunately or sure has been. There's a
(08:31):
lack of understanding through all the organizational layers of how
existing legislation can be used appropriately to support and maintain
a safe workplace while we still ensure compliance with the code.
And again the third one is we don't have any
standard organized organizational policy and guidelines that inform the worker
(08:53):
is how to respectfully and correctly address repeated inappropriate consumer behaviors.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
So we need that. Shouldn't be difficult, as you say,
should it to put that in a code?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
No, No, it's not difficult. Of I can provide you
with a sample notice that would be politically acceptable and
racially acceptable to all of New Zealand society. And you
know I've got one on my computer.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Perfect. Okay, So we get that in. Then does there
have to be almost an education campaign for patients to say, no,
you don't demand that in your culture. You want this
whatever your culture may be, Well, you can ask for it,
but it can't be delivered.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, it's it's not just the public that needs to
be educated. It's the A large part of this is
educating the actual workers. It's it's and you've got to
have you'll have you know, you might have a broad policy,
but then you'll have you have individual guidelines, I guess
(10:04):
for specific groups like the after our managers and things
like that. They need to know how to respectfully deal
with these situations and de escalate, which you know, we
deal they do it every day and they do manage
it best, but they having policies and guidelines for how
we deal with racism when it happens, you know, challenging
(10:26):
that when when it occurs. And even in the current environment,
because we're so short staffed, you know, it's easier to
sort of I'll just I'll just swap over my nurse
kind of thing because because we need to get this
patient out of emergency department, or we need to get
as X ray done or whatever. You know, the short
(10:47):
staffing affects a lot of that. But a lot of
the huge part is the education of the health workers
because we can educate the patients.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
All right, thank you so much for your time. Ben
Benber serving New Zealand Nurses Organization Delegate Texas says on
admission they agree to patients simple.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
For more from Kerry Wooden Mornings, listen live to News
Talks at B from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the carry wood of morning's podcast from
News Talks d B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As we were saying more than the staff at why
Targety Hospital refused to care for a rarely abusive patient
and ad to get hospital managers to defuse the situation.
The male patient had asked for white only staff and
made racist and sexual remarks over a period of six weeks.
The drastic action on the part of the staff finally
prompted hospital managers to escalate their response and diffuse the situation.
(00:34):
New Zealand Nurses Organization delegate Ben Vsseb joins me, Now,
very good morning to you, Ben.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Oh, good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Caring six weeks to get the situation resolved sounds like
appallingly poor management.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It was.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
On one hand, yes, I think the management just didn't
didn't come down and see what was actually happening. They
were sort of out of touch.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
And yet I can't imagine how bad the abuse must
be because I know and I've heard abusive staff on
a daily basis, and to a certain extent it. You know,
they don't fight every war. You know, they don't fight
every battle. They just let it wash over them and
just deal with them and are amazingly professional, even if
(01:27):
the patients aren't. I just can't imagine how bad it
would have to be for a cease work order to
finally get management.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Sort of, a cessation of work under that Health and
Safety Work Act is a large last ditch resort. When
we went down and talked to the staff, it was
obvious that nothing else is going to work for this.
It we need to sort of. It's so harmful to
the staff it needs to be dealt with immediately. That
(01:58):
was the only way to do it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
And interestingly, there is no nationwide guideline for responses to
racial discrimination. Is this part of the old DHB hang
up where each DHB responded to work situations in their
own way. There is no one set of national guidelines.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Well, I've worked in Auckland for many years and it
and currently Auckland, even under the FATA, AURA doesn't have
a policy that deals with racism. We have it is
included in the workplace violence policy, but it's just a
sort of it's a word in there is the history
(02:45):
behind it is like the we have our Patient's Code
of Rights, which is its mandate is consumer protection. It
doesn't have anything about how well a patient should behave
or not, because that's not its mandate. We have already
have a whole lot of lead that supports worker safety.
(03:08):
We've got the Health and Safety Work Act, We've got
the Health and Disability Safety Act, We've got the Human
Rights Act, Crimes Act, Victims Act. We've got a whole
lot of acts. But unfortunately organization hasn't sort of taken
bits from those and said, what do we need to
put in a racism policy so that we protect our
staff but also at the same time we comply with
(03:33):
everything we need to comply with to make that patient's
journey as good as possible.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
This is not a new problem, is it.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
No?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
No, should there be a patient's obligations charter as well
as a patient's rights charter.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
So there's been a number of submissions made to their
Health and Disability Commissioner concerned about sort of what was
perceived to be a sort of a lopsided bit of
the code because it doesn't deal with consumer responsibility. Yeah,
but the it doesn't fit in the code. It should
(04:13):
never go into the code because it'll dilute it down.
What we do need is a patient far now and
visit a code of conduct and The Commissioner has said
when when they do their five year review that there's
nothing preventing providers putting that in place, and it's a
(04:34):
really simple thing to do.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, well it should and it should be in there,
but it's so tricky because you've also got you know,
and I know there have been huge problems in ICU
where you've got a patient and ICU and the fin
No say, well, we demand to be around the bedside
because that is culturally appropriate for us to be with
him or her, and the nursing stuff is saying you
(04:59):
cannot be in here because this is a really intense
nursing situation. They say, well, this is our cultural right
and we demand the right to do so. There have
been real issues around that. There have been issues.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Around so that the code does allow for fun, how
to stay with a patient that's really sick. The intensive
care units are like our special care units, and it
is difficult because there, you know, a patient may bee
(05:31):
in a single bed space and there's lots happen, but
there's ways, there's ways to manage that. It's it's you know,
it doesn't do the hospital any any help. To have
rigid rules. You've got to be flexible because we're dealing
with people, and we're dealing with people under immense stress.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, and I get that, and and they're vulnerable and
they're frightened and what have you. But at what point
do you say this is not acceptable when it comes
what about you know, gender preference. If you say I
don't a man working on.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Me, well, well, generally sort of a female patient saying
I feel more comfortable with a female doctor is perfectly legitimate.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
It's but then why is it not legitimate?
Speaker 3 (06:21):
But we don't have enough female doctors?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But then why is it legitimate? Why is it not
then legitimate for a for a white man to say
I only want white hospital stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Well, it's it's it may in some cases it may
not be right for a person to say I only
want to be worked, I only wanted to be cared
for by a female, a female nurse or a female doctor,
et cetera, And that that can be just as discriminatory.
It's it's probably a more I don't know, it could
(06:59):
be a lesser one in a sense. But you know,
when I if I say to you, I don't want
to be looked after by anybody that's White's that's I'm
actually allowed to say that under the freedom of the
freedom of expression, and then maybe an awful but lawful
thing that I can say. But it doesn't mean that
(07:21):
the provider has to accede to that request, because to
do so would be they would then be in breach
of the human rights sect.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Well, that's exactly what north Shore Hospital did when when
they had a patient saying no Asian staff at the surgery,
they said, all right, well, do our best to find
a team that's not I mean, what when people, you know, people,
the whole concept of people having rights is all very
well and good, but where are the obligations? I mean,
you know, when you've got a hospital system, and that's
(07:51):
anywhere in the world, there are people from all over
the world, thank god, who are working in them and
who are doing their best to provide the best possible cares.
So once you start picking and choosing your staff in
a public health system, it's going to fall over for
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Okay? So I personally think that there's about three main
reasons why we have this sort of performance gap, and
that's one. The first one is that the provider is
fearful of repercussions that may affect its reputation. It doesn't
want to be branded in the media as being racist
or whatever, which unfortunately or sure has been. There's a
(08:31):
lack of understanding through all the organizational layers of how
existing legislation can be used appropriately to support and maintain
a safe workplace while we still ensure compliance with the code.
And again the third one is we don't have any
standard organized organizational policy and guidelines that inform the worker
(08:53):
is how to respectfully and correctly address repeated inappropriate consumer behaviors.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
So we need that. Shouldn't be difficult, as you say,
should it to put that in a code?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
No, No, it's not difficult. Of I can provide you
with a sample notice that would be politically acceptable and
racially acceptable to all of New Zealand society. And you
know I've got one on my computer.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Perfect. Okay, So we get that in. Then does there
have to be almost an education campaign for patients to say, no,
you don't demand that in your culture. You want this
whatever your culture may be, Well, you can ask for it,
but it can't be delivered.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, it's it's not just the public that needs to
be educated. It's the A large part of this is
educating the actual workers. It's it's and you've got to
have you'll have you know, you might have a broad policy,
but then you'll have you have individual guidelines, I guess
(10:04):
for specific groups like the after our managers and things
like that. They need to know how to respectfully deal
with these situations and de escalate, which you know, we
deal they do it every day and they do manage
it best, but they having policies and guidelines for how
we deal with racism when it happens, you know, challenging
(10:26):
that when when it occurs. And even in the current environment,
because we're so short staffed, you know, it's easier to
sort of I'll just I'll just swap over my nurse
kind of thing because because we need to get this
patient out of emergency department, or we need to get
as X ray done or whatever. You know, the short
(10:47):
staffing affects a lot of that. But a lot of
the huge part is the education of the health workers
because we can educate the patients.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
All right, thank you so much for your time. Ben
Benber serving New Zealand Nurses Organization Delegate Texas says on
admission they agree to patients simple.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
For more from Kerry Wooden Mornings, listen live to News
Talks at B from nine am weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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